Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown

Devastating editorial on the dangers of a foreign policy that is always subordinated to domestic political interests.

Hillary seems willing to follow in the footsteps of the first Clinton presidency, where foreign policy statements/decisions are made in order to further some domestic interest. It's been well established that this was the case during Somalia, Rwanda, and even Kosovo. Hillary hasn't even occupied the Oval Office and she's already starting to create diplomatic dust ups. Here is the Boston Globe editorial, available at http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editor ial_opinion/editorials/articles/2008/04/ 27/hillary_strangelove/?p1=email_to_a_fr iend

AMERICANS have learned to take with a grain of salt much of the rhetoric in a campaign like the current Democratic donnybrook between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. Still, there are some red lines that should never be crossed. Clinton did so Tuesday morning, the day of the Pennsylvania primary, when she told ABC's "Good Morning America" that, if she were president, she would "totally obliterate" Iran if Iran attacked Israel.
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This foolish and dangerous threat was muted in domestic media coverage. But it reverberated in headlines around the world.

Responding with understatement to a question in the British House of Lords, the foreign minister responsible for Asia, Lord Mark Malloch-Brown, said of Clinton's implication of a mushroom cloud over Iran: "While it is reasonable to warn Iran of the consequences of it continuing to develop nuclear weapons and what those real consequences bring to its security, it is probably not prudent in today's world to threaten to obliterate any other country and in many cases civilians resident in such a country."

A less restrained reaction came from an editorial in the Saudi-based paper Arab News. Being neighbors of Iran, the Saudis and the other Gulf Arabs have the most to fear from Iran's nuclear program and its drive to become the dominant power in the Gulf.

But precisely because they are most at risk from Iran's regional ambitions, the Saudis want a carefully considered American approach to Iran, one that balances firmness and diplomatic engagement.

The Saudi paper called Clinton's nuclear threat "the foreign politics of the madhouse," saying, "it demonstrates the same doltish ignorance that has distinguished Bush's foreign relations."

The Saudis are not always sound advisers on American foreign policy. But they understand that Rambo rhetoric like Clinton's only plays into the hands of Iranian hard-liners who want to plow ahead with efforts to attain a nuclear weapons capability. They argue that Iran must have that capability in order to deter the United States from doing what Clinton threatened to do.

While Clinton has hammered Obama for supporting military strikes in Pakistan, her comments on Iran are much more far-reaching. She seems not to realize that she undermined Iranian reformists and pragmatists. The Iranian people have been more favorable to America than any other in the Gulf region or the Middle East.

A presidential candidate who lightly commits to obliterating Iran - and, presumably, all the children, parents, and grandparents in Iran - should not be answering the White House phone at any time of day or night.

Unfortunately this is just the latest in a series of important foreign policy statements and votes that Hillary has supported, in order to appear "strong" enough to pass the "commander in chief threshold."

Of course the first instance was voting for the AUMF - the vote granting the president the congressional authorization to begin the war in Iraq. If you've had any legal training, you will realize by reading the text of the this document, just how much power Congress handed over to the president by caving to Bush on this bill. The same argument can be made for the Kyl-Lieberman amendment.

Probably the most obvious example - since Hillary continues to suggest that she was duped into voting for war - is the recent Bosnia/Tuzla fabrication. What is so shocking about the lie she peddled was that there was really no rational reason for it. There was no marginal benefit to lying about her Bosnia experience, but she still did it! If she had never claimed to land under sniper fire, it's not like all of a sudden people would have thought "well, maybe Obama is more experienced in foreign policy!" Obama had essentially conceded the issue by trying to focus attention on judgment.

So why would she lie about Tuzla? If no one had ever heard of Tuzla, people would probably still have said she was more experienced.

The reason is, again, that Hillary's strategy is one of appearances - smoke and mirrors. If you can plant into the public consciousness that Hillary, the Wellesley and Yale Law grad, not only dodged sniper fire - but during the 1970s had actually tried to join the Marines, then it would make her look "tough." That is why she voted for the AUMF; that is why she voted for Kyl Lieberman; that is why she peddled the Tuzla lie; and that is why she says she is willing to "obliterate" Iran.

We're already suffering from the decisions of a president that is willing to sacrifice the best policy, for the most politically expedient. We don't need another.



Display:


Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 0)

Excellent look at this issue. I understand she was trying to develop her hawk-credentials, but this was a poorly thought out way to do it.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:12:47 PM EST

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 1)

I am not O.K. with Israel having the bomb. It is Israels possession of a bomb that is starting a nuclear arms race in the middle east. And it seems to me that you, like Bush, are ignoring the NIE report regarding Irans halting of it's nuclear weapons program.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:44:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 1)

Here is the link where she talks about attacking Iran if they attack ANY of their neighbors.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/ 2008/04/clintons-umbrel.html

And I do not believe that a country practising apartheid is one that the U.S. should be so closely aligned with. Israel already has the bomb let them fend for themselves.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:15:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

Show me any treaty proposed or ratified that would compel the US to retaliate against any attack of Israel?

Since Hillary was talking hypotheticals, let me give you one. Say the country was taken over by extreme right wingers who wanted to expand the borders to ancient Judea and Samaria, invading Syria, Jordan and Egypt. Would the US support them in such a war? Would the US defend them against counter attack?

Israel has a right to survive within defined borders, and to defend itself. US policy since 1967 has been to support these aims, but also to encourage Israel to seek peace with its neighbours and return to internationally agreed borders.

Where in that policy does it say the US would obliterate Iran?


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:35:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

Policy has shifted and will continue to shift. You seem to see everything through the prism of Gulf wars I and II. No Israeli sees things in such a narrow apocalyptic way.

Israel has strong diplomatic ties with Jordan, Egypt and Turkey - all Muslim states. The debacle of Iraq is partially caused by this black and white diplomatic idiocy you advocate, and few Israelis are thanking the US now for that. It has only increased instability in the area, and made Israel more vulnerable.

The main toxin in the external relations with neighbouring governments is the occupied territories. But even Sharon realised he would have to swap land for peace. Hillary's rhetoric does not increase Israel's security - on the contrary it endangers it.


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:26:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

"Report out there", "Israelis" - source please.

There may be some Likudists who would like nothing better than the US to make a surgical strike against the Nuclear power plant, but 'obliterating Iran' - c'mon.

Maybe she just misspoke again.


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 10:34:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

Don't worry. If you're just typing words into google and pasting the first you come up with, then you are a lesson to me - but not in the way you think.

And you're ducking the issue. Taking out a nuclear power station, though an active plant unlike the Iraqi plant the Israeli air force bombed in the 80s, is a highly risky business, but proportional.

Might/could/would obliterate Iran is a stupid statement, and though you've made some cogent points about foreign policy up thread, your words here won't make Hillary's any smarter


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:06:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

You've clearly lost your glasses or something more serious, because who in the world would suggest that attacking a power plant is retaliation for a nuclear attack

Your sources, and the ones I've read, call for a preemptive surgical attack against Iran's nuclear weapon building capacity. That's what I was referring to, and either you're willfully misconstruing the obvious, or you're blinded by your own preconceived prejudices.

As for putting Iran's population on a pedestal and discounting Israeli kids and civilians. Well, your slip is revealing. I know Israel well and have been there on many occasions. Everything I've said has been what I believe is in the best security interests of that country.

But go ahead. Leap to conclusions. Make a fool of yourself in an open thread. Probably nobody is reading by now, and given where your posts are going, I don't think I will bother either


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:44:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pakistan and India Would Love Fallout (2.00 / 1)

Sure, let's nuke Iran (a huge country by the way), which would blanket Pakistan and India with fallout (our allies by the way). Sure, just kill a few million of our allies....


by bernardpliers on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:45:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Lets not forget that (2.00 / 1)

ordinary Iranians turned out by the thousands in Teheran on September 11, 2001, NOT to cheer Osama Bin Laden, but to lament the barbarity of the terrorist attacks that killed innocent people.

Of course, that little incongruous fact didn't get much news coverage here in the US. It didn't play into the hysteria-monging.

Ordinary Iranians are NOT their government and its been my experience that they are a warm, very human people who have been put through hell by many years of extreme difficulties, which started when US and British intelligence forces overthrew the last democratically elected secular government in Iran in the 50s and replaced him with a bloodthirsty dictator.

The reason, oil.

All through the 80s, the US was supportung their enemy, Saddam Hussein, even as he was using chemical weapons against the Iranians.

The Iranian revolution was a terrible situation but extremism is what happens when fanatics on both sides gain the upper hand by eliminating moderate people and options. Again and again, that has been our mistake. Moderation doesn't sell weapons or win elections, it seems.

But its common sense.. especially when lots of history that most people don't understand is involved.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are no angels in this situation. (although there are certainly some devils)

Its a moral wasteland..


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Comprehensively cover 100%, not only the healthiest 80%
by architek on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 10:08:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 1)

Your questions are a little disingenuous... of course we don't want a nuclear Iran, but the people of Iran hate their leaders, and this only gives those very leaders an opportunity to rally them around this threat.

Israel has their own nuclear weapons. If we start flinging them around, who else will join in the fun? This is where the "obliterate" comment is a poor choice. It'd be fine to say we'd retaliate appropriately to agression, but to "obliterate" a country? What about all these millions of innocent Iranians who hate being opressed?


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:48:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 1)

1. No but that's besides the point. I'm not comfortable with anyone having nukes.

2. Conventional weapons would be sufficient as they do not have long range capacity.

3. Hamas & Hezbollah aren't interested in attacking the US.

4. Isreal having nukes started the arms race.

5. No since they don't have long range capacity. I'm far more worried about Pakistan.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:58:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sure. (2.00 / 1)

Let's talk foreign policy.

Hillary's statement is objectionable on several levels. First of all, it is at its core redundant; Israel has a hardened multi-spectrum second strike capacity, which renders an American guarantee moot. They simply don't need the Clinton shield, which is probably why they have never asked for it.

Second, as I pointed out in my recommended diary on the subject, Israel's actual national interest is not to have massive retaliation against Iran, but a non-nuclear Iran with which they have ties. That option is on the table, unless Hillary's posture takes it off the table.

Third, Iran is a non-nuclear state. Hillary's threat provides a direct incentive for Iran to acquire nuclear weapons to have some kind of retaliatory capacity of its own. The problem is this: once the protocol against such a threat has been breached, and it never has been to my knowledge against a non-nuclear state, the floodgates open. Decision-makers in Tehran now need to consider that they face nuclear attack from the United States under some scenarios. They'd be remiss if they didn't assume that the horizon of those scenarios could broaden.

So to sum up Hillary's threats, she offered something that was neither required, effective, nor desired by the ostensible benefactor, in offering it diminished the U.S. negotiating options, and contributed to nuclear proliferation. And that's just off the top of my head.

You wanna talk foreign policy? Bring it.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:34:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sure. (2.00 / 0)

Thanks. You've put this much better than I could (or have tried to)


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:36:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But isn't Obama's position exactly the same? (none / 0)

I remember him basically saying the same thing as Hillary several months ago about the US response to a nuclear attack in the Middle East.


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Comprehensively cover 100%, not only the healthiest 80%
by architek on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 10:11:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not really. (none / 0)

Israel's 2nd strike capability has been researched as being effective only if they are hit with smaller nuclear attack vs. it being multiple preemptive attacks.

The best analysis I've seen contends that Iran would be able to develop weapons in the 20 Kt rage, compared to estimates of Israel's capacity at 1 Mt. Since their nuclear posture contains land, air and sea-based components, there's no question that it has survivability. There's also no question that Israel's deterrent is less developed and hardened than that of the U.S.; but the logic that Iran would not fear deterrence from Israel, but would fear that from the United States, is flawed, because the likely results of an Iranian nuclear attack on Israel would be devastating for that country. If Iran is willing to risk ten million casualties, say, upping the ante to twenty is not much of a deterrent and therefore ineffective.

The fallacy being they don't see the need of having nuclear weapons as quid pro quo situation based on recent verbiage used. Rather they see it as an offensive weapon that they have already decided-- is a must have in their arsenal.

I actually don't see that. because Iran has not developed an offensive strategic doctrine for any of its forces, and because they have ceased development at Natanz as far as we know. But even if what you claim is true, then Hillary's threats don't add to the necessary suasion to stop Iran going nuclear in the first place. If they have decided they need an offensive nuclear capacity, the last thing the West should do is give them reasons to proliferate. Hillary just did by showing aggression against Iran to be United States as opposed to Bush junta policy. If Iran can't be deterred, as you would have it, then again, no deterrent is going to be effective. This matters.

Another fallacy is that Israel is somehow dormant in their view... hoping for the best case scenario w/ Iran.

Of course they're not "dormant"; a nuclear Iran is something Israel has made very clear it will not accept. But that's not what I'm saying. Rather, Israel's interest in a non-nuclear Iran is method neutral. If Iran can be peacefully dissuaded from going nuclear, Israel prefers that option, provided the outcome is the same. However, a peaceful outcome requires U.S. leadership, something Hillary just made more difficult to exercise.

Foreign policy generally includes military options. Some people mistake ignoring the principle of proportionality and effectiveness for subtlety or for toughness. Fortunately, the foreign policy establishment in this country takes a dim view of that irrational exuberance, which is why you haven't heard anyone not connected to her campaign endorse this latest bit of posturing.

For people who are actually interested in foreign policy, however, Hillary's statement was a gaffe illustrating that she's not ready to be President. It really is that simple: threaten a non-nuclear state with nuclear obliteration, as she put it, and you've disqualified yourself from the Presidency. This is literally Bush-league, in all meanings of the word.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 10:38:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, thank you, but (2.00 / 0)

I'm afraid you're still missing what I'm saying. The question isn't what to do after Iran goes nuclear - it's how best to prevent it from doing so in the first place.

Point 1, when doesn't matter once you've put the option on the table. It is established U.S. policy not to threaten nuclear action against non-nuclear states. Iran will remain non-nuclear for at least a decade, and permanently if certain guarantees it seeks are met. That's the prize.

Point 2, please refer to point 1: meaningless distinction.

Point 3, no, that's not a major distinction provided you have inspectors, which would be an essential part of any arms-control regime there.

Point 4, sure, but informed estimates based on the technology they are known to possess, the fissile material they have access to, and so on, are a lot better than guesswork. Those estimates are based on the same tools we used to gauge the Soviet threat, and they're quite reliable.

Point 5, Israel's well-publicized actions are entirely consistent with a bargaining position. In fact, given Zahal's well-known ability to shield their operations from the press, the fact that we know so much about their plans is indicative of them wanting everyone to know about them. Very effective bargaining tool, clearly.

Point 6, for example, I was very unhappy with Obama's talk about a unilateral move into Pakistan. The disqualifying difference with regard to Hillary's nonsensical statement is that she talked about nuclear weapons.

As to the rest, I can only repeat that Iran is ten years away from a weapon. So all of this is non-actionable at this point, and probably will remain so until Barack runs for re-election in 2012. Maybe Hillary can make it an issue when she primaries him that year :-)


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:52:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

Hamas & Hezbollah are not interested in attacking the US. They are anti-Israeli forces.

Do you have a link to the senior leader (of which group? They're different) training Iraqis?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:43:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

I'm sorry. That information is from the US government...


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:04:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

Totally agree and the american voters are no doubt very interested in the NE chick shit policy of being nice and kissing the ass of Iran when the blow israel off the face of the earth.

PLEASEEEEEEE.  

And how many times must we hear about how HRC lied about Tuzla???  Keep this up.  When white working class voters vote for McCain it will be these kinds of issues that drive then to the GOP.

This is the typical Bo supporters nonsense we hear.

Better a Red country and a red presdient then voting for HRC.

daivd


by giusd on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:15:30 PM EST

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 1)

i hardly think threatening to obliterate an entire country is nonsense.


by aaaa05 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:24:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 1)

Yes, since obviously most of the people who would be killed would be civilians.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:25:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 1)

"Better a Red country and a red presdient then voting for HRC."

Back to the early '50s anyone?  Some more Cold War with that?  Maybe a side helping of defamation and scurrilous slander (or is slander always scurrilous, dunno, but this is really bad slander so maybe)?  

How hard do we want to try to be the 50s and 60s GOP (and some Democrats during that era).  I thought, hoped, the days of campaigning on this were gone.  


by mady on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:26:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

dude that is red as in red state blue state - republican / democrat but i am glad some here does remember the cold war.

david


by giusd on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:30:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 1)

Not a dude, a dudette, and my profound apologies.  I saw red :-o.

Mady


by mady on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:31:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 0)

Dudette, totally cool.  I forget that red has really changed its meaning over the last 40 years.  But you are right RED did mean something very different than it does nots.

best  david


by giusd on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:46:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 1)

I remember the Cold War, and I understand that it's over.

I don't want a President who thinks we can tough and bluff our way to peace. So l don't want Bombs Away McCain or Hillary "Obliterate'em" Clinton.


by BlueinColorado on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:36:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

this is the problem (2.00 / 1)

You are willing to suffer poor foreign policy, just so your chosen candidate can win an election.

Not making charged statements like threatening to "obliterate" another country - ESPECIALLY one that is probably in more control of Iraq than we are, and one of the largest oil producers in the world - has NOTHING to do with kissing ass. Grown ups don't have to talk tough to be tough. Bluster in foreign policy is a sign of weakness.

All of the grown ups have said that engagement is the way to control Iran. We cannot control a country that we're threatening with nuclear destruction.

Hillary is not fit to be commander in chief.


by highgrade on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:32:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 0)

It's clear to me that Obama has been fighting with one hand tied behind his back. He doesn't go after Clinton on lots of issues -- including current issues like this, ancient history like her legal work with a law firm associated with the Black Panthers, and presidential and post-presidential issues associated with her husband like the Weather pardons, other pardons and fundraising.

Why?

Because he knows he has to make peace with Clinton supporters after he gets the nomination. He can't make them too mad. And he doesn't want to give Clinton an excuse to play victim and to try to get a bump from a gendered appeal based on her being under siege.

Meanwhile, Clinton doesn't care. She knows it's very unlikely that she can get the nomination and if it happens, she may think she and Bill can pull it out in November, even with very very angry folks who won't like how they won.  But I'm getting more and more convinced that they're playing for 2012 and figure people won't be mad at them by then.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:16:02 PM EST

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 0)

Yes, considering all the ammunition Obama could use against the Clintons, he does show amazing restraint. But I'm grateful for it.

The main line of attack for the last few weeks has been that 'he's just like other politicians', 'he's as negative as they are'.

It's a wonderful compliment to your own candidate to suggest Obama is as bad. By their two pronged attack also shows the Clintons and McCain are almost equally scared of Obama and all he represents. He's  fighting two establishments at once. But by god, it's long overdue.

And the bomb Iran statement just goes to show that, along with AUMF and her misappropriation of the genocide in Bosnia, voting for Hillary Clinton would mean you get more of the same.  


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:29:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

Really BO has not been negative.

1. HRC is divisive (code for B word).

  1. HRC would bring out republican voters (Fox talking point.
  2. Tea with the ambassator (code to demean her accomplishemnts.
  3. BO memo to play up bs racial issue.
  4. Bosnia bosnia bosnia code for HRC is a liar.
  5. Ferraro.  Come on they did nothing but push this for weeks to smear HRC.

I could go on for awhile.  BO has not run a negative campaign.  What a joke.

david


by giusd on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:34:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 1)

Just on Ferraro: Obama didn't push the story, the old hack--and if you read her history, she never was anything but a machine pol who got lucky--wouldn't shut up and go away. And she did most of her babbling on the shows of "good friends' like Sean Hannity and her "pal" John Gibson.


by BlueinColorado on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:38:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

I never said that Obama ran a wholly positive campaign, just that there are many, many damaging lines of attack he could have taken but didn't and doesn't.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:17:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

David

1. Divisive was his response to all the mentions of shuck and jive and Jesse Jackson etc - a very mild word in the context

2. I never heard Obama say this, but I did hear Hillary recommend McCain over Obama twice

3. Err... accurate hardly negative. See Northern Ireland

4. What? He started the race issue? See point 1 - and you can hardly say the Philadelphia speech was reverse race baiting.

5. Did you miss the bit when Obama defended Hillary on the Bosnia issue (PA debate)? Wish I could see Hillary do the same about Farrakhan/Muslim/Ayers/Wright

6. Answered by another. He defended Ferraro against the charge of being a racist in the same way he said his grandmother would make off coloured remarks, but was no racist.

I could go on. But it's off thread. I think we've even been down this road before, but you've made your points, and I've made mine


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:21:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

This Boston Globe nonsense is barely worth wasting my time commenting on. Hillary responded to a scenario in which Iran had launched a nuclear war against Israel, something the actual President of Iran has threatened. Her response that we would annihilate Iran is the only reasonable response anyone would give that is running for President of the United States. Carry a Big Stick has been the foreign Policy of this country since Teddy Roosevelt.


Visit Pagan Power You know you want to!
by Pagan Power on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:31:53 PM EST

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 0)

The only reasonable response?

What planet do you live on - because if it's the same one as mine I ought to get off it.

No presidential candidate should respond to such a vague hypothetical. What if Iran launched a nuclear attack? With how many warheads? With how much forewarning? Where did the warheads impact? Are you going to obliterate Iran before or after Israel, the only nuclear power in the region, makes its own retaliation?

Her answer was dumb and - as per normal - pure spin politics. We all know what it was, the problem is that not everyone in the world understands how triangulation and posturing works. They take these statements at their face value.

The Teddy Roosevelt quotation actually goes

Speak softly and carry a big stick

So Hillary failed at base one


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:39:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary fails Commander in Chieg Test (2.00 / 1)

How convenient of you to not mention her other statement which was that she would attack Iran if they attacked ANY of their neighbors, not just ISRAEL. More proof that this women is not ready to occupy the oval office.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:59:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary fails Commander in Chieg Test (none / 0)

It is very convenient that you left out the part about the neighbors of Iran that are our allies.

Please don't get me wrong. I do not advocate war with Iran. In fact I am opposed to starting a war with them or anyone for that matter. But we have to take the threats of their President seriously. And he has threatened to annihilate Israel and Iran is in the process of developing nuclear power that has the potential to be used to create nuclear weapons. So we have to keep an eye on them. And we have to make it clear from the outset that if they do make good on their threat we will respond in kind. Nothing else makes any sense at all.


Visit Pagan Power You know you want to!
by Pagan Power on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:46:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 0)

No. It's terrible foreign policy in a volatile region to pile onto such a hypothetical. Of course the US reserves the right to use nuclear weapons in self defence, but in the context raised she should have just not answered. One of the great failures of Bush's tenure has been how unilateralist he was. This didn't increase US power. In fact it is probably at it's lowest post Iraq than two decades.

Deterrence works through credible and specific threats, not through generalities. And this just plays as more of the same dumb unilateralism I'm afraid, especially to allies. It does nothing to promote peace, and probably increases Tehran's desire to get those nukes quick. Though designed to appeal to the Jewish vote in the primaries, it also does absolutely nothing to help Israel's long term security interests which lie in containment of extremist Arab or Iranian threats, and engagement with more moderate governments


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:00:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

probably increases Tehran's desire to get those nukes quick.

Nothing personal but the point of view you espouse is naive. Iran doesn't need a single impetus to get nukes as fast as possible. They have an insane President that held a worldwide conference denying that the Holocaust even occurred. This man is dangerous and you don't treat people like that with kid gloves. The Iranian people need to understand that we will hold them responsible should their misguided government attack our allies with nuclear weapons. That is the sum total of what Hillary communicated.


Visit Pagan Power You know you want to!
by Pagan Power on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:52:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

This man is dangerous and you don't treat people like that with kid gloves

If that's the sum of your foreign policy thinking, then the naive accusation is hilarious.

No one treats Ahmadinejad with kid gloves! But threatening to obliterate every man, woman and child in Iran does nothing to undermine his power, does nothing to help the growing opposition, especially to young people, against his rule. All it does is strengthen the hand of the hardliners, and ensure Iran spins its centrifuges even quicker.

And empty threats over hyperbolic hypotheticals make Hillary look weak


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:34:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

Yeah, right!


Visit Pagan Power You know you want to!
by Pagan Power on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 10:54:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 0)

Finally, we get to talk about a substantive issue on MYDD. Can you believe that the rest of the diaries are still filled with the elitism/chicago corruption/black panther talking points?

I'm amazed Hillary's statement, and her threat to kill millions of Iranians (who would have already been obliterated by Israeli nukes) hasn't received due attention. What's happened to the world's superpower when mass slaughter ranks on a lower scale than a gutterball in a five frame bowling match?

Go figure. But be warned. By using the word 'smackdown' you'll be accused of misogyny.


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:32:19 PM EST

Your disrespect for feminism (none / 0)

that the very valid concerns about which many post here on Mydd is what is misogynistic, not the diarists title.
by linc on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:35:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Must We "Respect" Bush Also (2.00 / 0)

heck, we're supposed to "respect" Hillary in a campaign?

Holy crap, what would it be like when she becomes president?

Remember when Fox News would camp out on the doorstep of anyone that expressed doubt about Bush?  And everyone would express outrage at the lack of "respect" for W?

Would there be similar intimidation under Hillary?

It sure feels that way.


by bernardpliers on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:43:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your (none / 0)

comment is complete irrelevant to mine. Brit's comment was specific to Mydd. Thanks for your concern though.
by linc on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:44:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That Wasn't Very Respectful nt (2.00 / 1)


by bernardpliers on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:59:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your disrespect for feminism (2.00 / 0)

Is that your definition of misogyny?

Because if it is, I would say you are abusing the term, and thereby abusing the histories of millions of women who have suffered real misogyny, discrimination and injustice. That you can wield the word so lightly, so out of context, shows you are really not a true feminist, and have no respect for the history of women's struggle for equality.

I've seen feminism used here to support one candidate, and yet when disgusting sexist statements are made about, say, Michelle Obama, the same high principles are not applied.

These are not real feminists. They are partisans misusing the principle for their own petty ends...

...as you are doing in the statement above.


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:45:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Misogyny (none / 0)

is anything less than full-throttle at-all-costs support of Hillary Clinton, to some people.

I'm unsure where in the feminist spectrum massive nuclear retaliation falls, but I'm sure there's a place for it.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:23:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your disrespect for feminism (2.00 / 1)

Wel said Brit. The "feminist" on this site who support hillary have done more harm to the feminist movement then good.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:27:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama supporter right? (none / 0)

No offense, but your opinion on the subject is pretty meaningless considering the perspective with which you are viewing it: your attack on the way Clinton supporters use feminism- its pointless.
by linc on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:34:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama supporter right? (2.00 / 1)

As is your comment.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:30:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No kidding. (none / 0)

that's the point.
by linc on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:45:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fortunately (none / 0)

This is still our election and one that will be determined by Americans for Americans. The Boston globe can bend knee all it wants, but there is nothing good about the regime that controls Iran and there is nothing good about positioning America into a weaker negotiating position by calling for weaker foreign policy. If it were evident that Iran were ready in any way shape or form to make nice, it would be a different story, but Iran's gov't is entirely self-interest, as are all others- including our own. Giving way through campaign rhetoric is what is foolish.
by linc on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:32:47 PM EST

Re: Fortunately (2.00 / 1)

You're being silly.

This kind of talk only strengthens the regime. The Iranian public supports engaging with the US.

What do you think happens to public opinion when the person that may become the next US president makes a public statement that she can kill you, your family and your entire nation?

Yes, Yes, I know that she said it in reaction to a theoretical nuclear attack by Iran. But what do you think is going to be reported?

Does our own press do a good job of reporting context, or the nuance behind a particular policy statement? Of course not. What makes you think it will be any different in Iran.

Hillary's tough talk is the sign of not only inexperience, but imprudence. I don't even think Bush has ever made such an unnecessarily inflammatory statement.


by highgrade on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:37:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You (none / 0)

are being ignorant and showing your complete lack of knowledge of what nuclear deterrence is and how it is used and applied in foreign affairs. What Hillary said is exactly what needed to be said. If the Iranian public has maintained its good will towards the United States during the Bush administration, it sure isn't going to let up because Hillary Clinton stated the obvious.
by linc on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:40:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You (none / 0)

Fortunately nuclear retaliation has never been used or applied in foreign affairs. It's a bit rich that you accuse the poster of ignorance when you reply like that.

The theory of retaliation is a lot more complex than you give credit for, and basically arose out of the symmetrical threats of the Cold War.

It's really inappropriate and embarassing sabre rattling in the context Hillary used it. For example, retaliation should always be proportional, or you give the offending country the rationale 'well they're going to destroy us anyway', which was part of the mindset that caused the problem in the Cuban Missile Crisis. And the Israel Iran context is quite unique. Israel is the only nuclear armed power in the region with over 200 warheads. Why Hillary would need to add her nukes to the pile, no one knows. But it makes her look hellishly hawkish and more pro Israel - which may be good in the primaries - but is not nuanced foreign policy in a volatile region.


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:53:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the general concept (none / 0)

is called MAD, you can look it up.
by linc on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:26:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the general concept (none / 0)

No, Mutual Assured Destruction was the last RAND developed phase of first strike theory.

None of these concepts work unless your own nuclear arsenal is directly targeted by the enemy.

Iran can't launch a missile more than 1000 kms.

Oh, and it doesn't have nuclear warheads. Unlike Pakistan


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:28:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Did you miss (none / 0)

the IF portion of the question that was asked of Clinton? Or how about the ISRAEL portion of the question?
by linc on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:32:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did you miss (none / 0)

Israel is an ally, but as far as I know not you have no NATO like treaty to defend it regardless.

MBNYC has answered this better than I can, because I always find it tough talking about Israel in the US - almost as hard as race - compared with my friends in the UK who, although Jewish, are much more sceptical about Israel's foreign policy and the lop sided US support for it - especially under Bush.

Here I will pay a big compliment to Bill Clinton however. I think he (and the Norwegians) did an amazing amount of work bringing Rabin and Arafat together - just as he did in Northern Ireland. Rabin's assassination was one of the most devastating blows to peace in the area. Netanahyu was (and still is) a disaster. Sharon could have brought peace back onto the table, but the Olmert government screwed up big time trying to prove itself hawkish in invading Lebanon, and failing miserably.

As MBNYC says much better than I do, Israel's best long term interests are in engaging with the likes of Iran and Syria, and ratcheting down the tensions. Hillary's remarks do not help that.
 


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:48:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

I am so glad to see the true face of the participants on this "democratic" blog revealed. Apparently, the United States should be willing to host a cook out with Iranian dictators (as Obama proposes) and allow the extremists in that country to wipe Israel off the face of the map.

While there may be a large contingent of Americans who may care little for what happens outside our borders, I for one am happy to hear that it is a Democrat who has been the most forceful in standing up for the security of the ONLY democracy in the Middle East.

Someone needs to stand up to the extremists who have hijacked this party.


by alvic63 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:34:37 PM EST

You are being dishonest (2.00 / 1)

This has nothing to do with "allowing Iran to wipe Israel off the face of the map." You've been drinking the Bush/Lieberman Kool-Aid.

If Israel was ever in any danger, of course the US would have already sent signals, both overt and through intermediaries, that any kind of attack would be met with overwhelming retaliation. In fact, the Israelis themselves have probably already made this clear to the Iranians. Every president, Democratic or Republican, would not hesitate to defend Israel.  

You simply don't understand. Hillary DOES understand. And that is what makes her comments so inexcusable. She KNOWS that the scenario she painted  - of an Iranian nuclear attack on Israel - is never going to happen, but she is not beyond trying to make political hay out of the situation.


by highgrade on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:40:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 1)

What was even more ridiculous is that she would attack Iran if they attacked ANY country in the region, not just Israel. I'll repeat that, she would attack Iran if they attacked ANY of their neighbors. So first she ignores the NIE report on Iraq and now she ignores the NIE report on Iran. How stupid is she to once again follow the Bush/Cheney guide to foreign policy.?


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:35:35 PM EST

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (2.00 / 0)

Did she really say that?

Wow. And for the last month we've been talking about Obama's awkward use of the word 'bitter'.

Hard to believe really, that this nomination race has descended to this, when important statements about foreign policy, about nuclear weapons and the obliteration of millions of lives are secondary to whether Obama, son of a single parent on food stamps, is elitist.

But just listen to reaction this diary will get. The gargling strangled sound of ostriches burying their head in the sand.

Fortunately, no one in the UK really takes what Hillary says these days very seriously. She's really undermined her credibility, not just with Tuzla, but her contradictory takes on so many things during this primary season. Believe me, the Clinton's have wasted a lot of political capital in their attempts to use any argument to win, which is a great shame because they both have a place to play on the world stage


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:06:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

For the love of Neo-con (2.00 / 1)

Senator Clinton has done something amazing here! She has (may be accidentally) driven her supporters to argue down a line that is commonly used by neo-cons to take us down the path of war and destruction. If you have one iota of common sense you would realize that the conditional obliteration line is not okay. It's wrong. It is unacceptable. It cannot be. It is to be rejected. We veto it, nay, we vote it down.

What the hell is the matter with you people? Have you not seen the price tag on the tit for tat back and forth that has given us $115/barrel oil? This is how it happens. When we look tough (for political gain), and they look tough back (for political gain), and for what? A failed presidential bid? For anyone actually defending Senator Clinton's remarks on Iran, shame on you a thousand times over.


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:13:37 PM EST

It's really difficult, I imagine (2.00 / 1)

getting smacked down both in the House of Lords (!) and by a Saudi newspaper.

Personally, I don't take her seriously on this episode - this was obviously campaign rhetoric - but still: if a Democratic candidate causes diplomatic eruptions in Riyadh and London, two places as dissimilar as it gets, shouldn't that raise a huge red flag?


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:16:51 PM EST

Re: It's really difficult, I imagine (2.00 / 0)

Good point. The world is watching this primary, and while we despair over some of the inane personality obsessions of some of it, and are inspired by the activism and engagement of a lot of it too, we are also concerned about who is going to be commander in chief of the world's remaining superpower


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:24:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, I hope (2.00 / 1)

we won't disappoint you :-)


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:43:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (1.00 / 0)

LOL - Oh alright, tell us how much "power" Kyl Lieberman granted the president.

I await in breathless anticipation, your enlightenment on Kyl Lieberman.

Your obedient servant,
Little Otter


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:34:41 PM EST

the sad part (none / 0)

Is that if Bush used Kyl/Lieberman to strike at the Iranian Guards, and a wider conflict began - Hillary would be back in front of the microphones talking about how she was duped into giving Bush the authorization.


by highgrade on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 01:05:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the sad part (none / 0)

Kyl Lieberman doesn't authorize anything. It's a non-binding resolution that suggests that the Iranian Guard be designated a terrorist organization by the State Department. If Bush wants to attack, he has to get authorization to do so.

That's it.


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:16:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the sad part (none / 0)

show me where a strike on Iran is authorized. Pay attention to the Statement of purpose right below the link. Notice there is nothing about authorizing an attack on iran.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/09/26/brea king-lieberman-kyls-iran-amendment-passe s/

Statement of purpose: To express the sense of the Senate regarding Iran.

COSPONSORS(5):

Sen Lieberman, Joseph I. [CT] - 9/20/2007
Sen Coleman, Norm [MN] - 9/20/2007
Sen Alexander, Lamar [TN] - 9/24/2007
Sen Ensign, John [NV] - 9/25/2007
Sen Graham, Lindsey [SC] - 9/25/2007

TEXT OF AMENDMENT AS SUBMITTED:

SEC. 1535. SENSE OF SENATE ON IRAN.
(a) Findings.--The Senate makes the following findings:

(1) General David Petraeus, commander of the Multi-National Force Iraq, stated in testimony before a joint session of the Committee on Armed Services and the Committee on Foreign Affairs of the House of Representatives on September 10, 2007, that ``[i]t is increasingly apparent to both coalition and Iraqi leaders that Iran, through the use of the Iranian Republican Guard Corps Qods Force, seeks to turn the Shi'a militia extremists into a Hezbollah-like force to serve its interests and fight a proxy war against the Iraqi state and coalition forces in Iraq''.

(2) Ambassador Ryan Crocker, United States Ambassador to Iraq, stated in testimony before a joint session of the Committee on Armed Services and the Committee on Foreign Affairs of the House of Representatives on September 10, 2007, that ``Iran plays a harmful role in Iraq. While claiming to support Iraq in its transition, Iran has actively undermined it by providing lethal capabilities to the enemies of the Iraqi state''.

(3) The most recent National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq, published in August 2007, states that ``Iran has been intensifying aspects of its lethal support for select groups of Iraqi Shia militants, particularly the JAM [Jaysh al-Mahdi], since at least the beginning of 2006. Explosively formed penetrator (EFP) attacks have risen dramatically''.

(4) The Report of the Independent Commission on the Security Forces of Iraq, released on September 6, 2007, states that ``[t]he Commission concludes that the evidence of Iran's increasing activism in the southeastern part of the country, including Basra and Diyala provinces, is compelling. ..... It is an accepted fact that most of the sophisticated weapons being used to `defeat' our armor protection comes across the border from Iran with relative impunity''.

(5) General (Ret.) James Jones, chairman of the Independent Commission on the Security Forces of Iraq, stated in testimony before the Committee on Armed Services of the Senate on September 6, 2007, that ``[w]e judge that the goings-on across the Iranian border in particular are of extreme severity and have the potential of at least delaying our efforts inside the country. Many of the arms and weapons that kill and maim our soldiers are coming from across the Iranian border''.

(6) General Petraeus said of Iranian support for extremist activity in Iraq on April 26, 2007, that ``[w]e know that it goes as high as [Brig. Gen. Qassem] Suleimani, who is the head of the Qods Force. ..... We believe that he works directly for the supreme leader of the country''.

(7) Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, the president of Iran, stated on August 28, 2007, with respect to the United States presence in Iraq, that ``[t]he political power of the occupiers is collapsing rapidly. Soon we will see a huge power vacuum in the region. Of course we are prepared to fill the gap''.

(8) Ambassador Crocker testified to Congress, with respect to President Ahmedinejad's statement, on September 11, 2007, that ``[t]he Iranian involvement in Iraq--its support for extremist militias, training, connections to Lebanese Hezbollah, provision of munitions that are used against our force as well as the Iraqis--are all, in my view, a pretty clear demonstration that Ahmedinejad means what he says, and is already trying to implement it to the best of his ability''.

(9) General Petraeus stated on September 12, 2007, with respect to evidence of the complicity of Iran in the murder of members of the Armed Forces of the United States in Iraq, that ``[t]e evidence is very, very clear. We captured it when we captured Qais Khazali, the Lebanese Hezbollah deputy commander, and others, and it's in black and white. ..... We interrogated these individuals. We have on tape. ..... Qais Khazali himself. When asked, could you have done what you have done without Iranian support, he literally throws up his hands and laughs and says, of course not. ..... So they told us about the amounts of money that they have received. They told us about the training that they received. They told us about the ammunition and sophisticated weaponry and all of that that they received''.

(10) General Petraeus further stated on September 14, 2007, that ``[w]hat we have got is evidence. This is not intelligence. This is evidence, off computers that we captured, documents and so forth. ..... In one case, a 22-page document that lays out the planning, reconnaissance, rehearsal, conduct, and aftermath of the operation conducted that resulted in the death of five of our soldiers in Karbala back in January''.

(11) The Department of Defense report to Congress entitled ``Measuring Stability and Security in Iraq'' and released on September 18, 2007, consistent with section 9010 of Public Law 109-289, states that ``[t]here has been no decrease in Iranian training and funding of illegal Shi'a militias in Iraq that attack Iraqi and Coalition forces and civilians..... Tehran's support for these groups is one of the greatest impediments to progress on reconciliation''.

(12) The Department of Defense report further states, with respect to Iranian support for Shi'a extremist groups in Iraq, that ``[m]ost of the explosives and ammunition used by these groups are provided by the Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps-Qods Force..... For the period of June through the end of August, [explosively formed penetrator] events are projected to rise by 39 percent over the period of March through May''.

(13) Since May 2007, Ambassador Crocker has held three rounds of talks in Baghdad on Iraq security with representatives of the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

(14) Ambassador Crocker testified before Congress on September 10, 2007, with respect to these talks, stating that ``I laid out the concerns we had over Iranian activity that was damaging to Iraq's security, but found no readiness on Iranians' side at all to engage seriously on these issues. The impression I came with after a couple rounds is that the Iranians were interested simply in the appearance of discussions, of being seen to be at the table with the U.S. as an arbiter of Iraq's present and future, rather than actually doing serious business ..... Right now, I haven't seen any sign of earnest or seriousness on the Iranian side''.

(15) Ambassador Crocker testified before Congress on September 11, 2007, stating that ``[w]e have seen nothing on the ground that would suggest that the Iranians are altering what they're doing in support of extremist elements that are going after our forces as well as the Iraqis''.

(b) Sense of Senate.--It is the sense of the Senate--

(1) that the manner in which the United States transitions and structures its military presence in Iraq will have critical long-term consequences for the future of the Persian Gulf and the Middle East, in particular with regard to the capability of the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran to pose a threat to the security of the region, the prospects for democracy for the people of the region, and the health of the global economy;

(2) that it is a vital national interest of the United States to prevent the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran from turning Shi'a militia extremists in Iraq into a Hezbollah-like force that could serve its interests inside Iraq, including by overwhelming, subverting, or co-opting institutions of the legitimate Government of Iraq;

[Paragraphs three and four were removed before the vote]

(5) that the United States should designate the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps as a foreign terrorist organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act and place the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps on the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists, as established under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act and initiated under Executive Order 13224; and

(6) that the Department of the Treasury should act with all possible expediency to complete the listing of those entities targeted under United Nations Security Council Resolutions 1737 and 1747 adopted unanimously on December 23, 2006 and March 24, 2007, respectively.

"Secretary of Defense Robert Gates stated on September 16, 2007 that "I think that the administration believes at this point that continuing to try and deal with the Iranian threat, the Iranian challenge, through diplomatic and economic means is by the preferable approach. That the one we are using. We always say all options are on the table, but clearly, the diplomatic and economic approach is the one that we are pursuing."


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:22:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

Boston Globe op-ed, which this is, is slanted.  They endorsed Obama way back when and they continue to slant their op-ed's towards Obama.

Even though the state rejected Obama in the primaries, despite the BG endorsement, Kerry, Kennedy & Patrick endorsement.

the only people that would think this is a "smack-down" are those who are already firmly planted in the Obama camp.

btw - that is the total op-ed that was c&p'd in the diary.  There isn't anything more.  Not much of a "smack-down".  And it is disingenuous to say the least - it forgets to mention that it would be an Iranian NUCLEAR strike against Israel that would prompt that action.  Not just any old strike.  

and yes, I live in the Boston area.


by colebiancardi on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:42:04 PM EST

Re: Boston Globe/Hillary smackdown (none / 0)

And the Saudis? They endorse Obama too?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:05:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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