A Modest Proposal

As a Michigander herself, Firedoglake's emptywheel has a rather novel proposal to resolve the Michigan delegate standoff in about as fair a way as I've ever seen proposed. Now, it should be noted before getting to the meat of the proposal, what emptywheel's real concern here is. For most of us talking about this primary, we talk about the Michigan and Florida delegate situation in sort of abstract terms as something whose impact is almost exclusively a matter of delegate math vis a vis the primary election. emptywheel sees something much graver at stake.

More and more, I see volunteers who have been critical to our GOTV success in recent years tuning out of the party, utterly disgusted by the state and national politicians posturing about our vote.

And so in the wake of the April 19th Michigan congressional district conventions at which many of the delegates to the national convention were elected, emptywheel proposes the following:

My proposal is this: you seat the 83 delegates selected (plus alternates) on April 19 with full voting strength. That would net Hillary 11-16 delegates from having won the Clusterfuck in January. It would also ensure that the only reasonably democratic vote Michiganders got to cast this year--April 19's district caucuses--counts.

You treat the PLEOs (spots for locally elected officials) as is. This would net Hillary another 3 delegate advantage from the primary.

You split the At-Large delegates 50-50 (that is, 14 each). This would give Obama the opportunity to influence the selection of 14 of the delegates in Denver (his campaign did not vet any of the people who ran as uncommitted delegates on Saturday and at least some of the delegates selected are not solid Obama supporters).[...]

You do not seat the super-delegates, at least not as super-delegates. The campaigns are perfectly free to use their 14 At-Large delegate slots to give to the people who would otherwise be super-delegates, but they will be delegates just like any other.

Of course, this will not be terribly popular with partisans of either side for whom any movement away from their candidate's position is unacceptable, but if you accept the premise that the only solution will be a compromise solution, this looks to be a pretty damn good one. As emptywheel points out, it actually does accomplish most of the goals that all parties involved have said they want.

It rewards Hillary, slightly, for having won the Clusterfuck. It penalizes Obama, slightly, for taking his name off the ballot in January...[but] it would also partially incorporate Obama's demand that the delegation be split 50-50...And it penalizes MI, 28 total delegates, for having broken DNC rules and moved its primary up.

But it focuses that punishment on those who played Chicken with the votes of MI and lost, last year, rather than punishing those who had no choice in the matter and lost their ability to cast a vote in a truly fair election. It penalizes the super-delegates.

But for emptywheel, most important of all:

It would give MI's voters--the people who will do the grunt work to get our Democratic nominee elected in the fall--a say at the Convention.

So what do you think? If you like it, go sign emptywheel's petition asking Howard Dean and Mark Brewer, Chair of the Michigan Democratic Party, to adopt it.



Display:


Isn't it true that . . . (none / 0)

The Charter has to be amended to strip MI of SDs?  I believe that's one of the issues in the Ausman challenges, and based on what I've read Ausman has a pretty good case on this one.

If true, then the Rules Committee never had the authority to strip FL & MI of their SDs, nor would they have the authority to enact this proposal.


by Trickster on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:47:00 PM EST

Re: Isn't it true that . . . (1.50 / 2)

Horrible solution.

The main problem here is that Obama didn't take his name off the FL ballot as well. Why? Because we are knew Hillary would change her story when the time calls for it.

The only solution is to split the delegation 50-50. If Hillary would have stuck to her words, this would not be an issue right now. She's going against the party in order to win the race and/or destroy Obama in the fall.

She doesn't care about the party or about Michigan. She only cares about herself - but what's new. She can't even get the nomination from the party that elected her husband President twice. What does that tell you? She's damaged goods.


Obama 08!
by comingawakening on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:07:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't it true that . . . (none / 0)

The only solution is 50/50??

Are you guys so committed to standing against democracy?

Its like its become your life's passion


by DTaylor on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:14:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't it true that . . . (none / 0)

I'd absolutely support a fair re-vote, since it's the only way to really know the MI electorates' preferences. But short of that, we all should recognize that we don't know who they'd vote for in a fair election, and given that we absolutely shouldn't try to guess at it.

Split the delegates 50/50 so that it doesn't affect the outcome but lets the delegates participate in Denver.


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:22:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't it true that . . . (none / 0)

Do you think Obama should get zero votes in MI?



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:30:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't it true that . . . (none / 0)

0 votes would be fair in the same way that Obama's caucus wins were fair despite there being a LARGE skew from reality as measured by primaries in Washinton state and Texas.

But if he gets 2/3 of the uncommitted delegates that would be something that I couldn't call unfair.


by DTaylor on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:16:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't it true that . . . (none / 0)

2/3 seems fine to me.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:24:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't it true that . . . (none / 0)

So your position is that caucuses, which are provided for in the rules and agreed upon by the candidates as a means of delegate selection, are unfair, however awarding Obama some arbitrary number of delegates in a contest in which potential voters were told it wouldn't count, and the candidates agreed, would be fair?

My, my head is spinning.


by Pragmatic Left on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't it true that . . . (none / 0)

Yeah. Obama did not put his name on the MI ballot. It was his decision. Uncommitted will be free to vote for either candidate. Looking it the delegate selection, a majority of them will vote for Obama. I have no problem with that. But, Obama should not be awarded delegate from MI.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:47:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Laugh (none / 0)

First, you have to remember that MI violated the rules.

I see no reason to reward MI for violating the rules.

I see no reason to reward Hillary for being Against MI's getting Delegates... until she NEEDED them, and then being For MI's getting delegates.

But what I think probably won't matter much.  However, you have to put forward a proposal that might stand a chance of being approved by BOTH sides.

The one proposed has no chance.  Dear Barack, please approve a scheme that will give Hillary a larger margin of delegates than she's won in any legitimate primary.  She deserves them because she kept her name on the ballot.

Pig's ass.

Those who voted for someone OTHER than Hillary should NOT have their votes awarded to HRC in any manner. Those folks voted against Hillary when their choice was Hillary or... SOMEONE ELSE.  And super-delegates ought not be awarded their votes, at all.  Period.


by ogre on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:40:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't it true that . . . (none / 0)

This is a slap in the face to the rest of the states that held up their side of the deal, stuck true to their agreed upon decision in 2006 as to which states went early.

I'm sick of hearing about oh, poor Clinton NEEDS to win anyway she can, even though in doing so people go back on their agreements and say to everyone else--

gee what suckers YOU are for sticking to YOUR agreements--
and as for the voters, most of the other primaries NOT EVERY STATE gets to vote where their vote counts--
but oh, this is the Clinton machine, she couldn't 'close the deal' nor 'make the sale' so now everyone has to act as if the other 48 states that did the right thing are really silly since rules breakers can just do whatever they want and in the end--
it's perfectly ok, but only when Clinton says it's ok.  Sorry this stinks to the max.

50-50 is the only 'fair deal' for rules breakers and that's being generous.


by Wary on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:47:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't it true that . . . (none / 0)

It really comes down to if democracy is a right or a privilege

If its a right you count the votes if its a privilege you understand that many of us can't stand with you.

McCain seems to think its a right.


by DTaylor on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:17:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't it true that . . . (none / 0)

Democracy is a system, not a right.  This system confers the right to vote on various matters to all eligible voters.  An eligible voter can do things to remove his right to vote.  For example, becoming a felon in many states.  Or renouncing one's citizenship.  To pick an example that's more apropos, in many states, being a registered Republican will render you ineligible to vote in the Dem primary.  In this instance, the FL and MI parties intentionally nullified their delegates' voting rights in the convention, hoping that the DNC would call their bluff, which it didn't.  HRC supported the decision to strip delegates.  MI&FL exercised their right to vote for delegates, but their leaders managed to nullify the significance of those delegates.  That doesn't mean the people didn't vote.


by semiquaver on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:24:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't it true that . . . (none / 0)

In a democracy, the votes that count are the ones that are in accordance with the rules.

Those that violate the rules don't get counted.  Period.

CAVEAT: Unless those votes are for Hillary.

Riiiiight.


by ogre on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:41:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't it true that . . . (none / 0)

yeah, democracy! when the other two frontrunner's names weren't on the ballot--democracy! and even though the delegate system bears only a passing resemblance to popular vote--democracy! even though many voters thought the election wouldn't count--democracy!


"Don't let it end this way; tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa
by shef on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 02:11:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not sure you were replying to me, but (none / 0)

50/50 is the worst possible solution.  That's saying we'll give you convention tickets, we just won't let you vote.  I certainly wouldn't allow my state to be insulted that way if I were speaking for Michigan.  I'd much prefer just getting straightforwardly and honestly kicked out.


by Trickster on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:59:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't it true that . . . (none / 0)

The main problem here is that Obama didn't take his name off the FL ballot as well. Why? Because we are knew Hillary would change her story when the time calls for it.

What?That makes no sense to me at all.


Yes, I am a Clintonista for Obama.
by Denny Crane on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:46:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest (none / 0)

I think the problem will be solved before the convention.  Michigan democratic party knew what they were doing, and should be penalized for it.  Dean says rules are rules, but he also said that the delegates will be seated in some fashion, and so will the Florida delegate.  Maybe Michigan and Florida willl start playing by the rules.  I have sent letters to our democratic party here in Florida, and I think they will no better next time.


by Spanky on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:47:44 PM EST

Re: A Modest (none / 0)

Democracy is democracy

If dean stands against democracy he will need to find himself a new party.


by DTaylor on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:49:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'd be willing to bet... (2.00 / 1)

...that Howard Dean has done more for this Party than you have, and probably ever will.

If you have so much rage that you need to vent, pick a better target. Go whack away at a tree stump or something.


by odum on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'd be willing to bet... (none / 0)

Really? Disenfranchising all the voters for what the state parties did is helping the party?
Stripping the states of ALL the delelgates when the rules allowed for half of the delegates to be seated is helping the party?
Losing MI as a blue state in the GE is helping the party?
Do tell.
Howard Dean has shown no leadership in this issue.
by skohayes on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:17:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'd be willing to bet... (none / 0)

I do suppose you are aware that Terry Mcauliffe, as head of the DNC in 2004, threatened in no uncertain terms to strip Michigan of their delegates when Carl Levin wanted to move the primary up? It's in his book.

...and Howard Wolfson voted for the resolution to strip Michigan in this primary.

Stripping delegates - Camp Clinton were all for it, until they were against it.


by tysonpublic on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 10:56:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest (none / 0)

They'll be seated, but in a way which ensures that they don't make a difference.


Unable to rec or rate
Still supporting Obama
Still not putting up with "preening" posts
by jaiwithani on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:19:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest (none / 0)

I partially agree, but I don't think I would say that FL and MI broke any rules.  The rules were quite simple.  They said that if you hold your primaries before a certain date, you don't get any delegates.

There were no rules broken here.  It is like, if you swing and miss three times, you are out.  It doesn't mean that you broke rules.  If you do this, that happens.

FL and MI political leaders are not illiterate.  They are capable of reading and understanding.  They wanted to be ahead of others.  They understood what happens if you do that. They made their decision.  What more is there to discuss?


by smoker1 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:28:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (2.00 / 3)

So if Obama doesn't get his way he will be eating babies?

Thats what the original "modest proposal" was about.

I think we need to focus on who restricted Michigan's vote.

OBAMA

Who blocked Michigan's revote?

OBAMA

Who should lose more?

OBAMA

Count then as cast.


by DTaylor on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:48:07 PM EST

Re: A Modest Proposal (2.00 / 1)

Who immediately ruled out the cheapest and most practical method of conducting a revote (caucuses)?

Clinton.

Furthermore, Obama didn't block anything.  A funded, fair revote plan was never presented to the candidates.  


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:56:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

A funded, fair revote plan was never presented to the candidates because obama operatives worked with republicans in the state legislature to make sure it didn't happen. i nominate axelrod for the katherine harris award.  


by campskunk on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:03:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (2.00 / 2)

Obama stood against democracy once in public and then once again in private.

You can't wiggle out of pulling his name because that is public

Given the pulled name its very difficult for you to wiggle out of the private revote block.

Revoting Michigan was actually a smart move for Obama as Hillary wouldn't have done as well.

But he didn't have the political skills for the job.


by DTaylor on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:17:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (2.00 / 2)

Wait I was unfair to Obama

He stood against democracy at least 2 other times

He said Michigan shouldn't count or at least his campaign said it

And he said 50/50 or at least his campaign said it.

Obama 2008 has stood against democracy so many times.


by DTaylor on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:19:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

Are you interested in Democracy (by that I assume you mean the will of the voters) or are you interested in political maneuvering.  Because claiming that the will of the voters in MI was to give Obama zero votes seems to be dishonest and to go against your main point; Democracy!

If you are interested in political maneuvering, however, you'd harp more on him taking his name off the ballot... which is what you seem to be doing.

Hmmmm.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:34:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (2.00 / 1)

Links.  Can I has some?


She was against seating MI and FL before she was for it.
by lojasmo on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:43:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

tell todd beaton. (none / 0)

he's a well-known liar, right? is that what you're saying?

Is The Obama Campaign Obstructing a Michigan Re-Vote?

It's hard not to come to that conclusion when Obama Michigan co-chair State Senator Tupac Hunter has been such a consistent voice of resistance against the entire idea of a re-vote.

On March 12, Ben Smith reported Hunter's position as follows:

   I spoke just now to Michigan State Senator Tupac Hunter, an Obama campaign co-chair who held a press conference in Detroit today to criticize the option of a vote by mail as insecure, and who also ruled out any other form of re-vote. [...]

   "The Obama campaign position, as I stated, is we don't like the mail-in option."

   "We think it would be fair to split the delegates 50-50," he said.

   Hunter also said the two other possibilities -- a so-called "firehouse" caucus, and a full re-run of the primary -- are "not feasible," largely because of questions over how they'd be paid for, and how fast they could be assembled.


by campskunk on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:20:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: tell todd beaton. (none / 0)

The only quotes I see are ruling out a mail-in revote, which, given the difficulties in conducting a fair mail-based vote, I'd agree with.

There's a claim that he ruled out any other form of revote, but I don't see a quote or and attribution of that claim.


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:06:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: tell todd beaton. (none / 0)

Oregon does their entire primary by mail.


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:25:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: tell todd beaton. (none / 0)

And how long did it take for them to iron out all the issues with it?

A mail-in vote isn't something you can throw together in a month or two.


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:14:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you calling Oregon's primary Unfair? (2.00 / 1)

Lets see your comments the day results are read.


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:29:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

"Operatives", eh?  Sounds sneaky.  What exactly did they do?


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:23:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (1.50 / 2)

Opinionated lies does not make it true.

Michigan's Democratic Party f-ed this one. They were warned VERY CLEARLY. So was FLORIDA. Why should reward them? Split the delegates 50-50 and let these states have in impact when it really counts - Obama v McCain.


Obama 08!
by comingawakening on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:09:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

Where they will elect McCain


by DTaylor on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:19:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

That actually sound somewhat reasonable. I could live with that. I do know this - if those two states are decisive, then they must be counted in a way that reasonably represents what transpired. Record turnouts in both states prove that the citizens there expected their votes to matter. If we elect a candidate that is perceived as the front runner because we have disenfranchised two states, that candidate will not have any legitimacy above and beyond his in-party, partisan base.


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:49:08 PM EST

Re: A Modest Proposal (2.00 / 0)

The turnout proves that SOME citizens expected their votes to matter.  Problem is, we have no way of knowing how many people didn't vote, or voted for someone else, because they expected their votes not to matter.

And because of that, the results and wholly and completely bogus.


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:57:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

The decision to take his name off the ballot and to block a revote were both decisions Obama made for strategic reasons relating to the campaign. He has to rise and fall with the strategic decisions he makes. Clinton left her name on because she forsaw, corrrectly, that it could very likely become an issue. She also supported the revote even though she likely would have lost the election at the point the revote was being discussed.


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:11:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

How was Obama blocking a revote? .. Don't let your Obama hatred blind you.  What about Harold Ickes role in this mess?  Or are you giving him a pass?


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:21:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

But But its not 100% fair so lets make it 0% fair

Obama supporters don't think you have a right to vote

They think its a privilege !!!


by DTaylor on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:21:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

No one has a "right" to vote for the nominee.  The party can and does choose the nominee by whatever means they want.  It used to be backroom politics and now it is by primary and caucus.  If the party decided to flip a coin to choose, you would have no recourse whatsoever.  We all only have a "right" to vote in the general elections and local elections and such.


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:43:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

The election was bogus before he (rightly, given the agreement they all signed) removed his name.


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:24:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

revisionist history.


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:26:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

Huh?  How is that revisionist?  At the start of this process everyone agreed that MI and FL wouldn't count.

Clinton is the only one trying to revise history here with her self-serving claims of "supporting voters".


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:07:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

I doubt the voters in Michigan and Florida find it self-serving.


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:21:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I do (none / 0)

I'm a Michigan voter, and I do find it self-serving. If Clinton was such a strong proponent of democracy-- if she really wanted Michigan to count from the start-- why didn't she beg and plead with her supporters Jennifer Granholm and Debbie Dingell to hold a caucus or party-run primary on the original February date? Why didn't she file a complaint with the DNC when they stripped our delegates?

When I cast my ballot, I knew it wasn't going to count for delegates, and I did it anyway. Most of us knew we were casting meaningless ballots, the primary mess was well publicized.

So why did we vote? To send a message (either of support or opposition to Hillary Clinton), and also because there were down-ballot local issues (school funding, etc.). There were many who chose not to vote, and there were many who chose to vote. But please, don't pretend to represent Michigan voters if you aren't one.


Walberg Watch - Following Radical Conservative Rep. Tim Walberg in MI-07
by Fitzy on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:02:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I do (none / 0)

Hillary Clinton didn't beg and plead, because at the time, she was the frontrunner. Super Tuesday didn't show up yet. So much like the bully in the schoolyard, when Obama got on top of her,and started flailing away, she decided to run to the Principle.I'm from florida and no one complained about this at all until now. And guess what, it's still not big news down here. The only way it becomes big is if Hillary Clinton's people,complain enough that the people of Florida are being shafted. Until then no one down her cares.


John McCain: Everyones nowhere man
by johnny sexton on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:14:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I do (none / 0)

How do you know what her position was on the subject? All I've ever read is the quote where she defines what's clearly going to happen - she doesn't take a position in the quote.

Clinton was always going to win Florida - are you suggesting that she was willing to write that win off as insignificant? What math would make Florida a state that Clinton would be willing to write off as being in her column in the general election?


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:52:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I do (none / 0)

You didn't understand. I'm not saying that she would consider the state insignificant. I'm saying that in the grand scheme in plotting for the Primaries, this woman was the clear cut frontrunner. These primaries were suppossed to be unnecessary, because she was such a favorite. I am sure if there were any grumbling about the loss of delegates in Florida, we would have heard about it down here in Florida in August. Are you from Florida or Michigan? This did not become newsworthy in Florida until Primmary week, and even then it was used as only a tagline on the line:Democratic and Republican Primaries are this Tuesday, The DNC has decided..... No outrage, no protesting in the streets, no rallies at PBIA. And guess what, there still aren't any. Most of the voters don't know about it down here, and not most of them seem to care.


John McCain: Everyones nowhere man
by johnny sexton on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:14:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I do (2.00 / 1)

How do you know she didn't protest or make alternative proposals? She offered to finance a primary that she likely would have lost. Why didn't Obama go along with that? Do you have something definitive from the DNC that says that Clinton never argued against disenfranchisement or protested to Granholm? What are you basing your accusations on?

The fact of the matter is that political party cannot disenfranchise states and hope to keep the majority of voters in their column in the long run. It's in the best interest of the Democratic party to find a way to count those votes that reflect how the voters voted. We, as a party, need that. And there is nothing more cynical that the Obama camps willingness to write off a state for a generation so that one particular candidate can win a primary by not counting votes that he might not win by counting votes.

Regardless of how you slice it, we're a democracy and Clinton is arguring for counting the votes. The Obama camp is reduced to arguing against counting all the votes. She argued for providing  a second chance to vote when that vote would likely not have gone in her favor. She's got the moral high ground here, and there is nothing that Obama can do to change that.

If you guys are smart, you'll take your lumps, count the votes and move on. Otherwise, obama is the Dem who doesn't count all the votes in order to win, and that will come back and haunt him and the Democratic party for a long, long time.


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:14:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I do (none / 0)

Why count them when the DNC decided to disenfranchise them. Moral High ground? Are you serious? Are you blind? She's trying to change the rules, long after they were set,because she's behind.Or as most of the Clinton people say even.


John McCain: Everyones nowhere man
by johnny sexton on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:57:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I do (none / 0)

Umm, just a clarification.

I was on here arguing about the DNC decision LONG BEFORE ANY votes were cast, in ANY primary because of how STUPID the decision to strip them completely were.

Also - the RULES she isnt trying to change any rules "long after" they were set.

LEARN THE FUCKING RULES FIRST


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:10:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (2.00 / 1)

The candidates agreed not to campaign - that's all they agreed to. No one asked them to take their name off the ballot. Obama did so because he was running behind in Michigan and was seeking to pander to Iowa and New hampshire. He made strategic decisions and now he has to take responsibility for them. Clinton made the strategic decision to not be bullied into pulling her name off the ballot. No one asked her to do that but Obama.


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:45:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Before I decide... (2.00 / 1)

What is the motivation for punishing Obama "slightly" for taking his name off the ballot?

 One could argue that if Clinton had taken her name off like the other leading candidates we could have got a true re-vote there.  


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:54:09 PM EST

Re: Before I decide... (2.00 / 1)

And since all the candidates agreed to not participate in the election, it seems to me that Clinton should be the one that's "slightly" punished for leaving her name ON the ballot.


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:58:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Before I decide... (none / 0)

Candidates agreed not to campaign there. They weren't asked to take their names off the ballot. Obama took his off for strategic reasons and then blocked a revote he likely would have won - for reasons that no one understands.

Clinton abided by all the rules. Obama did things that he wasn't asked to do and his supporters are now complaining about the fall out from the decisions Obama made that had nothing to do, again, with what was being asked.

If Obama wanted to campaign there and have a shot at winning, he should have supported the revote. The Clinton campaign offered to finance half of the election. Obama refused all the way around.

He looks like a big, whiny baby who doesn't want to take responsibility for his decisions.


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:17:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Before I decide... (2.00 / 1)

Clinton agreed to not participate in the election.  She left her name on the ballot anyways.  In my book, having your name on the ballot when it could easily be taken off counts as "participating".


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:25:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Keeping your name on the ballot (none / 0)

does not violate the pledge.

Stop making believe it does.

Lying to yourself over and over does not make it true.


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:28:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Keeping your name on the ballot (none / 0)

I would consider keeping your name on the ballot constitutes participating in an election, especially when it could easily have been removed (as the other candidates demonstrated).

Obviously that's my own opinion on what counts as participation, but I don't think it's an unreasonable one.


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:32:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Keeping your name on the ballot (none / 0)

It's unreasonable in that you are supporting disenfranchising an entire state that both candidates will need to win in November, and the disenfrachisement will likely put it out of reach for an entire generation. that's as unreasonable as it gets.

You're demanding that entire party swallow a poison pill just so your candidate doesn't have to take responsibility for a decision that he made to take an action that was not requested of him.

It's extremely unreasonable in that there is nothing to suggest that anyone in the DNC at the time thought that the imperative was for the names to be removed.

There are plenty of pushy attorneys at the Democratic National Committee - if any of them perceived that clinton was breaking the rules by leaving her name on the ballot, a very public fuss would have been made at the time.

Go ahead - present us with some substantial and specific information that the DNC agreed with your assessment that the candidates must remove their name from the ballot in order to comply with the agreement.


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:27:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Keeping your name on the ballot (none / 0)

I don't even know how to respond to this because your comments are basically non sequitors.

Look, BOTH candidates supported eliminating the votes of FL and MI.  Stop pretending that's not the case.  Yes, eliminating their votes certainly doesn't help the Democratic Party's prospects in those states.  

But that ship sailed many months ago.  There was time to fix it then, and no one cared enough.

Also, I never claimed that the candidates MUST remove their names from the ballot.  Just that Obama followed his pledge more closely than Clinton -- he didn't participate in the election at all, as he agreed, whereas Clinton participated by leaving her name on the ballot.


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:21:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Keeping your name on the ballot (none / 0)

There isn't a single non-sequitor of any kind in my post. I assumed you could read at a junior level high level. My apologies for taxing your reading and thinking ability.

You have yet to produce a single piece of evidence that both candidates supported eliminating the votes. Bowing to the inevitable is not supporting the inevitable. As for removing his name, there is no evidence that anyone in the DNC thought it desirable for any of the candidates to do so. This was a strategic move on his part and no amount of whining and making shit up on your part is going to change that.

No one at the DNC objected in any fashion to Clinton and Dodd leaving their name on the ballot. Had it been imprudent, someone would have spoken up.

This is just you pretending that two entire states don't matter because your candidate  is less likely to  win the primary if they do. And none of you in the Obama can explain exactly how Obama will win in November if Michigan and florida are definitively off the table.


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:03:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Keeping your name on the ballot (none / 0)

The non sequitor, in case you're interested, is in your absurd misreading of my statement on reasonableness.  I said that it was not unreasonable to think that being on the ballot in an election constitutes "participation".  Then you replied that it was unreasonable that I was supporting disenfranchising MI and FL.  Which is obviously not what I was talking about at all.

Clinton said that the votes wouldn't count and signed a pledge to not participate in the elections.  She's been railing against that decision whenever she gets the chance since Super Tuesday, but was silent on it before that.  If she'd truly had such an issue with it from the start, as you assert, she'd have said something before she needed the votes.

This is just you pretending that two entire states don't matter because your candidate  is less likely to  win the primary if they do.

This coming from a Clinton supporter just blows my mind.  I, and Obama, have been totally consistent from the start -- MI and FL do not count.  It's YOU and YOUR candidate that are trying to change the rules now that you need them.  Do you really not see the ridiculousness of your assertion that I'm just being self-serving?  Are you that blind?

The simple, undeniable fact is that Clinton is trying to change the rules mid-contest.  That's otherwise known as CHEATING.


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:04:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Keeping your name on the ballot (none / 0)

bullshit -

I was on here arguing against the DNC for being so stupid before the dates were even changed.

Take your generalizations and shove em elsewhere.


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:12:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Keeping your name on the ballot (none / 0)

Fine, you're the shining exception.  Still, what I said about Clinton is true.


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:51:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Keeping your name on the ballot (none / 0)

Great - prove to us that ANYONE at the DNC though that the word "participating" meant that names should be removed from the ballot.

Personally, I think this is a notion that comes directly from the well-used ass of Barack Obama and has no better pedigree than his colon.


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 10:46:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Keeping your name on the ballot (none / 0)

half the site was in an uproar. You werent here!

You do realize you sound like a complete fucking idiot.

Oh, BTW i am not a "Shining example" i'm a voter and someone who's been pissed at the DNC for 11 months now.

Take your high horse tone and shove it


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:39:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Keeping your name on the ballot (none / 0)

the rules were changed mid-contest by Brazile and Ickes and the DNC.


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:13:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Keeping your name on the ballot (none / 0)

What did they change mid-contest?


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:51:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

are u for real? (none / 0)

The rules say 50%

that is what was agreed to by the DNC post 2006. Its been 50% for a while. The same penalty as the RNC (which penalized FL 50%).

FL changed their date, and then the rules changed and they penalized them 100%.

You need to research this a bit more other than talking points.


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:37:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Before I decide... (none / 0)

Is this some made up pledge you made up in your mind?


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:23:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Before I decide... (none / 0)

No, it's the one that all candidates agreed to and signed:

"I, ____, Democratic Candidate for President...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window..."

(emphasis mine)

http://www.fladems.com/page/-/documents/ THREE_pledge_versions.pdf


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:30:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Before I decide... (none / 0)

and the rest of it??? come on those very last few words of the sentence. theres only 5 or 6 more words.

The only part that is defined in your blurb is "campaigning" as defined by DNC rules and bylaws.


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:34:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Before I decide... (none / 0)

Uh, the rest of that sentence is clarifying the date of the window.  If it's too much trouble for you to click on the pdf, it's "(any date prior to Feb 5th, 2008)".  How does that affect what I posted at all?  

Regardless, my point stands -- the agreement very clearly says that they won't campaign or participate.


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:04:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Before I decide... (none / 0)

If the DNC wanted them to take their name off the ballot, why didn't they say so? And when Dodd and Clinton said they weren't going to, why didn't the DNC object?

Who defined "not participating" as removing a name from a ballot and where is this definition in a form that predates the obama campaign decision?


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:20:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Before I decide... (none / 0)

THEREFORE, I _____, Democratic Candidate for President, pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential election primary or caucus  before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as "campaigning" is defined by rules and regulations of the DNC.


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:27:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Before I decide... (none / 0)

Right, and your point is?  That bolded portion defines campaigning.  I'm talking about the participation clause, and as I've said, having your name on the ballot is virtually the definition of participating in an election.


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:23:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Before I decide... (none / 0)

So you're saying that Clinton, Dodd and Kucinich violated the rules in MI and all the candidates violated the rules in Florida?
Then why weren't any of the candidates sanctioned for violating the rules?

by skohayes on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:28:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Before I decide... (none / 0)

its like arguing with a wall.

Nevermind - you have your opinion, I have mine.


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:07:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Before I decide... (none / 0)

Thank you - there is nothing about taking their name off the ballot. They are simply agreeing not to compaign or participate in an election. No one did that. Clinton and Dodd's name were already on the ballot and they left it there. That isn't participating.


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:48:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Before I decide... (none / 0)

I would argue that having your name on the ballot is the very definition of participating in an election.


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:01:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Before I decide... (none / 0)

Of course you would argue that - it helps you candidate avoid taking responsibility for a strategic decision that has boomeranged in a way that is not to his best interest.

Now, point to a memo from the DNC reminding the candidates that they must remove their name from the ballot - if that memo doesn't exist, then you have grounds to stand on.

The facts are very simple - we will lose Michigan and Florida for a generation if their votes aren't counted, or are counted in a way that doesn't generally reflect what transpired within their state. That's the reason candidates weren't asked to take their names off the ballot. No one wanted to take an action that would permanently alienate large blocks of voters.

What you aren't getting is that this is an issue far bigger than Clinton/Obama - this is about how Democrats can hope to win in 2012 and beyond. If we alienate those two states, we're going to have a virtually impossible task for winning from here on out.

Clinton did the right thing - she left her name ballot and she abided by the rules as the DNC requested. She didn't campaign. Obama took a chance on a strategy and it didn't work out the way he hoped. so now, he's moving on to a strategy that would almost certainly cost him the election should he get what he wants, and be the nominee.

There is no upside for the Democratic party to not counting those votes in a fashion that resembles the actual vote. Not counting everyone's votes may help Obama (as it did Bush in 2000 and 2004) but it does nothing to help other Democrats, the party and it seriously handicaps future nominees.


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:16:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Before I decide... (none / 0)

Of course you would argue that - it helps you candidate avoid taking responsibility for a strategic decision that has boomeranged in a way that is not to his best interest.

I argue that because it's common sense.  Try this: go ask 100 random people on the street how they'd determine whether a person was participating in an election.  Don't you think that a huge portion would answer "if they're on the ballot"?

I favor following the rules.  I agree that the DNC penalty sucks, but we can't change it at this point.  There's a word for changing the rules in the middle of a contest, and that word is "cheating".

Saying that we "lose MI and FL" for a generation is just laughable, and unsupported by polling in those states.  Caving in would mean that the DNC is spineless.  There is a quite obvious upside to not counting those votes, in that it prevents every state from dismissing the DNC and scheduling their primaries whenever they'd like.

I'd love to count everyone's votes, but the results in MI and FL are obviously not "counting everyone's votes".  To do so would require a fair revote, and that logistically isn't going to happen.


by ChrisKaty on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:29:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Before I decide... (none / 0)

So do you favor stripping New Hampshire's delegates, since they broke the rules as well?


by skohayes on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:32:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i still have my signs from 2000. (none / 0)

i never thought i'd be picketing the DNC with them, though.


by campskunk on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:54:45 PM EST

Re: i still have my signs from 2000. (none / 0)

Wait, I want to vote NOW for the CA primary.  WIll it have to be counted?

"Every Vote Counts" has a context.

No rational person thinks you can vote now for 2012, for example.  

Votes have to be in accordance with the rules, or they're just paper-waving.

Parties DO NOT have any obligation to hold elections to choose nominees.  They're under no obligation to hold those elections they DO chooose to hold when and how a state chooses to hold the state's elections.


by ogre on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:51:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

i like the idea.

It punishes the supers, not the voters.


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:57:07 PM EST

Personally (none / 0)

I think the supers should be voided out and the regular delegates cut to 50 percent per the original rules.  Then one would need to settle the agreement for the one-half to be seated seeing as someone wants to go revise history.

I truly hope this is over before the convention because this Michigan Florida revisionist crap is bad for the Democratic Party and the Presidential run.


accepting McLettuce is like being 9 years old and forced to eat your own cooking
by Sychotic1 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:06:32 PM EST

Re: Personally (none / 0)

So you want to change the original rules in one aspect, and keep the original rules in another aspect?


Rise, Hillary, Rise
by sepulvedaj3 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:24:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Personally (2.00 / 1)

Actually, stripping all the SDs and half of the delegates is exactly how the orignial rules are stated.


by skohayes on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:36:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Two things.. (none / 0)

(1) Weren't they already sorting out their delegates and what not?  I thought that's what that whole piece from the Detroit paper was about.

(2) This solution does not address the central problem (from the primary standpoint), which is: clarity.  You are still going to have people from all sides looking at this as a "backroom deal" and walking away feeling as if their candidate was not treated fairly.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:10:58 PM EST

Re: Two things.. (none / 0)

But the Detroit paper was wrong .. they made it seem like Hillary snapped up all the uncommitteds .. when she did no such thing


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:22:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two things.. (none / 0)

Well, you are missing my point and also missed the point of that news.

The point of that news was that, even if Hillary did not pick up a single one of those uncommitted (which in fact she did), that the results give her the equivalent of nearly a 60/40 win.  Even this "modest" proposal gives her the equivalent of 15-20 points.

Now, I love Hillary but I sincerely doubt she could have carried MI by that kind of margin, if Barack had allowed a revote.  So, by standing in the way of the revote, Barack played checkers, Hillary played chess, and got the better of that.  That would be true even if she hadn't gotten a single uncomitted vote.

My point, however, was none of this.  My point was that, given that these delegates have apparently already been assigned, I don't understand how there is even room to consider a proposal such as this one.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:33:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good compromise (none / 0)

For those that don't know her work, emptywheel is probably one of the best bloggers on the internet, did amazing things at the Scooter Libby trial, and and has been more or less neutral in the presidential primary. Us Michigan bloggers are proud of the fact that she's one of ours.

The good thing about this proposal is that it punishes the people who really caused all of the problems-- Jennifer Granholm, Debbie Dingell, and the other superdelegates who pushed for messing around with the calendar after a primary calendar had been (democratically) adopted without protest.

Honestly, as a Michigan voter, I would understand if the DNC sat none of our delegates, and I'd still work hard for the nominee (likely Obama). But this does seem like a good compromise.


Walberg Watch - Following Radical Conservative Rep. Tim Walberg in MI-07
by Fitzy on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:13:15 PM EST

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

After Hillary clocks Obama in the remaining primaries the Michigan and Florida delegations will be seated as is - not 50% - nor under any formula.

Why?

Because Clinton will have the popular vote lead and the powers that be will want her to have the actual delegate lead, too.

Politics ain't pretty.
Or fair.


by johnnygunn on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:15:12 PM EST

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

Clocks him in what primaries? ..  besides KY and WV(and it will get closer in those 2 .. just like PA).


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:23:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

you heard it here first, folks... obama is expected to win ALL of the remaining primaries. anything less will be incontrovertible evidence that his campaign's wheels have come off ;-)


by campskunk on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:29:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Modest Proposal (none / 0)

Let's see.   you want to reward Hillary for not living up to the agreement that she and her campaign staff made and then punish Obama for keeping his word.  I THINK NOT!!!


by DemoDan on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:25:37 PM EST

Re: A Modest Proposal (1.33 / 3)

LOL - finally a statement from an Obama supporter I can agree with. YOU THINK NOT!


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:49:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There has to be a solution (none / 0)

and this solution is as good as any. Seat half of the delegates or give the delegates a half of vote. In my opinion, a 50-50 solution is unacceptable. It was easy for Obama to take his name off the ballot because he did not believe he was going to win Michigan. I would have a hard time voting for Obama in the general election if Florida and Michigan are not represented at the convention.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:26:30 PM EST

A morally bankrupt solution (none / 0)

Like your thinly veiled support of Clinton.

The rules were set down before the primary.
Clinton agreed...signed an agreement...to support the rules.
She has violated the agreement and now would like her violation to be sanctified.

Morally bankrupt, like the Clinton campaign, and like your suggested "solution".

They all should be seated at the convention, but given no vote re the candidates. They should be able to vote on everything else.

As to the trite and tired comment that politics isn't pretty or fair...You're right...So what?

If the Clintonites end up somehow winning in what is perceived by millions of African Americans and young people (most of the ones I know are typical) who have entered politics for the first time, as unfair, they will not vote for her in November. She and the Dems will go down in flames.

She will lose. It won't be fair but then again politics isn't fair...or pretty.

MP


by markpsf on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:31:54 PM EST

Re: A morally bankrupt solution (none / 0)

You do realize that if Florida and Michigan aren't counted in way that represents how the primary voters voted that we'll lose Florida and Michigan for a generation as well, and that would pretty much make it impossible for Democrats to get elected, right?

The Clinton are among the sturdiest allies African Americans have ever had in this nation, and if Clinton is the nominee, they will turn out in record numbers to support her. She's done well by them in her career and so has her husband. Young people aren't consistent voters in the first place. they'll get over it even though they swear they won't. No generation goes unrepresented. Besides, if Clinton is the nominee, young women will turn out in droves regardless of what you think at this point in time.


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:54:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A morally bankrupt solution (none / 0)

All of the anger here is coming from Clinton supporters.  Where are the rallies and protests in Michigan on this?  I haven't seen any polls that show this level of anger.

On the other hand, the AA community anger is coming from actual AA's.  Steal the nomination from Obama by counting Michigan, and it easily could fracture the party.   If for not other reason, this would have to happen at the convention and that comes so late that there wouldn't be time for that to heal.


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:50:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A morally bankrupt solution (none / 0)

Wrong on all counts.

You need to believe that but

a) Michigan won't even be lost this year and Florida may be lost anyway

b)Check with African Americans yourself. Clinton may have had African american support once but Bill has insured that they've lost it. Since no racial group votes as a block, I'm sure some African Americans will continue to support the Democrats too, but the numbers lost, which will be massive, will be devastating.

c) Fact - There is no way the Michigan and/or Florida delegates will be seated in any way close to the way the voting took place.

Again - I repeat. Both states broke party rules. Hillary vi