Chicago Politics as Usual [Updated x4: What did he do for $112k?]

[Updated 4x at end]

Barack Obama, as it turns out, is just another old-school politician in the finest quid-pro-quo Chicago tradition.

Although Obama has worked tirelessly to promote the image of himself as a 21st Century leader "dedicated to transparency and sensitive to even the appearance of a conflict of interest," writes the L.A. Times, he traded favors with Chicago entrepreneur Robert Blackwell Jr. during a time when Obama was struggling financially.  According to the Times:

After an unsuccessful campaign for Congress in 2000, Illinois state Sen. Barack Obama faced serious financial pressure: numerous debts, limited cash and a law practice he had neglected for a year. Help arrived in early 2001 from a significant new legal client -- a longtime political supporter.

Chicago entrepreneur Robert Blackwell Jr. paid Obama an $8,000-a-month retainer to give legal advice to his growing technology firm, Electronic Knowledge Interchange. It allowed Obama to supplement his $58,000 part-time state Senate salary for over a year with regular payments from Blackwell's firm that eventually totaled $112,000.

A few months after receiving his final payment from EKI, Obama sent a request on state Senate letterhead urging Illinois officials to provide a $50,000 tourism promotion grant to another Blackwell company, Killerspin.

Obama's campaign, of course, vigorously denies even the appearance of impropriety:

"Any implication that Sen. Obama would risk an ethical breach in order to secure a small grant for a pingpong tournament is nuts," said David Axelrod, Obama's chief political advisor..

~snip~

Obama spokesman Robert Gibbs...said Obama did nothing wrong acting on behalf of Killerspin. He said the state senator simply wrote a letter backing a worthy project developed by a constituent.

But the day after Obama wrote his letter soliciting state funds for Blackwell's company, Obama's U.S. Senate campaign received a $1,000 donation from Blackwell.

Maybe he didn't "do anything wrong" (but see update) yet isn't this the sort of backroom wheeling-dealing Obama decries?  It seems especially hypocritical in light of his heightened attacks against Hillary Clinton as a "compromised Washington insider."  It seems that  Clinton was onto something when she replied that "Mr. Obama's message of hope had given way to old-style politics and asked Democrats to take a harder look at him." Source.

While acknowledging that there were likely no technical violations in the tit-for-tat arrangement with Blackwell, the Times strongly implies that Obama does not, in fact, live up to the image he promotes...

Business relationships between lawmakers and people with government interests are not illegal or uncommon in Illinois or other states with a part-time Legislature, where lawmakers supplement their state salaries with income from the private sector.

But Obama portrays himself as a lawmaker dedicated to transparency and sensitive to even the appearance of a conflict of interest.

Recently, Obama expressed regret over a property deal with Illinois power broker Tony Rezko after Obama was elected to the U.S. Senate in 2004. In an interview this spring with the Chicago Sun-Times, Obama said his regret was not just because the real estate and restaurant entrepreneur was under criminal scrutiny, but because he was "a contributor and someone doing business before the state."

~snip~

Killerspin's owner, Blackwell, was a political supporter and friend as well. Both men lived on Chicago's South Side. Blackwell, a savvy and successful entrepreneur, was one of the first donors to Obama's early campaigns, including the state senator's failed bid for a congressional seat in 2000. In the presidential race he is credited on Obama's website with committing to raise $100,000 to $200,000 for Obama's campaign.

When Blackwell sought backing for his table tennis tournament in 2002, other politicians...offered support...But Obama was the only one who provided a letter that became part of the initial application for state funds...In addition, he wrote a state Senate proclamation heralding the first tournament and an official letter that welcomed "table tennis friends" to the 2004 contest and thanked spectators for helping to "make Chicago the table tennis capital of this nation." (emphasis added)

Keep in mind, this is the politician whose campaign had the audacity to say:

"Sen. Clinton is the most secretive politician in America today. This has been a pattern throughout her career of the lack of disclosure."   Source.

There is nothing "new" about Barack Obama.  He may be younger than his peers, but Obama has been an obedient student of traditional Chicago politics, and he learned early on how to keep his bread buttered. Now American voters don't necessarily have a problem with conventional politicians.  But I'm pretty sure that people dislike hypocritical ones.

UPDATED 4/27/08 5:55 PM PST: This update, originally posted at 1:45 PM PST, included a citation to Andy Martin. Due to objections in the comment threads of this post, I have deleted that reference. The question, however, is valid, which is what legal “services” Obama provided to earn $112,000 from Blackwell's company. Is there a record? Note: I am currently researching this question and will update accordingly.

UPDATED 4/27/08 3:30 PM PST: According to The Huffington Post, Blackwell contributed $9,600 to Barack Obama as of Feb. 2007.

UPDATED 4/27/08 4:00 PM PST: Over at Talk Left, I came across this comment today in response to the LA Times story:

Being a lawyer myself (5.00 / 3) (#23) by angie on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:36:49 PM EST: I would like to see Obama's time sheets for the work he did for EIK. The simple fact is that what most people call a retainer today is really an advance -- the money you get from the client goes into a trust account and as you actually do the work then that money can be moved from the trust account to your general account -- only at that point (after the work is actually done and billed) is the money the attorney's. A true retainer is a set amount of money given to an attorney to ensure that the attorney is available for whatever work you may have for him. The difference is that a true retainer is the attorney's money from the moment he gets it, and without any work being done. This true retainer arrangement simply doesn't happen any more, and in the rare case that it does, the attorney would have to be on par with Clarence Darrow. I cannot believe that Obama is/was such an attorney -- not so new out of law school as the timing of this story. So, while I can't say it is money laundering based on what I'm reading here, it does not pass the smell test for me and should raise some serious questions with the IL bar.

Cross posted at texasdarlin.wordpress.com



Display:


Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (1.82 / 17)

He's just another politician, nothing new.


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:11:55 PM EST

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (1.56 / 16)

This is just a copy/pasted diary, like a half dozen others on this thread.

Nothing new.

This is a hackneyed attempt to try and smear Obama in the vain hopes something will stick, as this is Clinton's only way to win the nomination at this point.

Nothing new.

This is you ignoring any real issues or hard questions- a majority of Clinton supporters voted for you to represent them in an online debate between Obama and Clinton supporters, but I guess a real debate one on one, without being able to delve into rhetoric or ad hominem attacks wouldn't  be acceptable?

Nothing new.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:14:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 6)

Even if you don't like this diary, the LA Times article is worth reading. It contains lots of actual reporting, and leaves readers to draw their own conclusions.


by LakersFan on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:24:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (1.71 / 7)

I agree; but the fact of the matter is that this is a hit piece diary on Obama, and nothing less.

I'm not sure who Tex is trying to convince; all she's doing is reinforcing what the diehard Clinton supporters agree with, and furthering the divide between Obama supporters and Clinton supporters.

The undecided few who lurk here are just as likely to view both sides with disdain. So my question is, what is Texas' motive here?

Personally, I think a lot of the die-hards who have abandoned all their journalistic integrity in a bid to smear Obama and praise Clinton are getting nervous, because if Obama wins the nomination, they'll never be taken seriously again. Tex obviously has lots of talent, but she uses it on trite hit pieces like this one.

Just my humble and frustrated opinion.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:31:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 8)

interesting...just yesterday you praised me as one of the most "eloquent" pro-Hillary writers and invited me to join your "mydd debate."

This is a valid and relevant issue.  Obama promotes himself as a new style politician.  Evidence is to the contrary.  And people should read the LA Times story.

You don't like it, okay.  But don't attack the messenger.


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:42:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Chinese Water Torture (2.00 / 3)

The constant drip drip of new information exposing the facade of the transformational, post-political, post-partisan candidate is starting to get painful now.

Let's stop foisting this transformational stuff on the American people already...please


by wasanyonehurt on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:51:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (1.16 / 6)

And I stand by that; and why you debase your talent in this way is beyond me.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:32:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Stop wasting your time, rg. (1.75 / 4)

I suggest you stop wasting valuable minutes of your life trying to influence the gullible patrons of this site.  This diary was recc'd by 36 people, which means you are working your ass off to change the minds of 3 dozen people, - some of which are for-profit-bloggers and provocateurs whose MO is to distract you from doing things that could actually make a difference.  Are 36 flat-earthers really worth the trouble.

These folks are beyond saving right now, and reality will eventually carry them along anyway.

Hillary has already lost this election, and there is nothing the dead-enders can do about it but howl at the moon.  So let them howl.  Let them devolve further into madness.  Enjoy it.  It's actually kind of funny.

For instance, look at the Ms. Edwards post on the rec list crying for an end to petty politics, and contrast that with the petty politics that fills the other 4 slots.

This is cognitive dissonance unmatched by even LGF or FreeRepublic.

If Jerome doesn't put his foot down and sort this place out, he will be the laughing stock of the liberal blogoshpere come November, if not already.

Rest easy RageKage knowing that you did all you could.

PAX


by dystopianfuturetoday on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:44:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop wasting your time, rg. (2.00 / 6)

Cognitive dissonance coming out of your mouth really drives home the meaning of those words.

Write a diary on how Obama is wrong in calling a Democratic leader a liar, dishonest, untrustworthy and secretive politician. Tell Obama to stop with character assasination and people with "cognitive dissonance" from your perspective will stop writing about Obama's crookedness.


by Sandeep on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:32:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

^See rage (1.50 / 2)

This is the kind of facile response that I'm talking about.  This isn't a blog, it's a church.


by dystopianfuturetoday on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:08:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ^See rage (2.00 / 1)

LOL you mean your fake pride of being brave and coming here instead of Dkos to hear opposing perspectives is like listening to facile responses?

Well we have to bow to your bravery on an internet blog. Please come to this church for 20 years and you will see the difference.


by Sandeep on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:47:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed. Fighting cheerleaders is not brave. (2.00 / 1)


by dystopianfuturetoday on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:51:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop wasting your time, rg. (2.00 / 5)

Beyond saving?  Your arrogance is astounding.  Did you even read what you wrote?

Just keep re-affirming each other.  Pay no attention to pesky little facts that pop-up ~ just insult the messenger. Let's see how far that gets you...and when all is said and done, and things go terribly wrong ~ No Problem!  You all will just blame the Clintons anyway.  But we all will pay the price for your divisiveeness.


by Mags on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:27:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You need to look up the (none / 0)

definition of cognitive dissonance.  ;-)


by macmcd on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:40:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Rage: Its time for you to take a MyDD break, IMO. (none / 0)

Rage:

You are one of the Obama supporters that I've consistently respected around here, until today.  Until today, I never saw you as yet another typical Daily Kos Obama troll, rushing in to hijack diaries ON PURPOSE, ignoring the message, and personally attacking the messenger, ON PURPOSE, in a strategy to drown out the message and destroy the credibility of the messenger.  

I never saw it before from you, but I'm seeing it several times today, in different diaries.

For the first time as a member of MyDd that I can remember, I TR'd you today.  Then I TR'd you again, and then again, and that was all in a different thread than this one, in which I'm going through and TRing you some more.  And these are the only two diaries I've read today, which means there could be a lot more TRable behavior of yours in other threads.  

What happened?  How did I go from never TRing you at all, to several in the same morning before my first cup of coffee?  It ain't me, so it must be you.  

Its time for you to take a break.  You're slipping, dude.  You're turning into a troll.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:46:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually... (1.50 / 10)

I think you're exactly right.  Politics as usual is why she posted this.

By framing the Democratic Primary as either/or rather than both/and, it drives a wedge between the supporters of each candidate.

TexasDarlin seems to have a vested interest not only in Obama losing and Clinton winning, but also in making sure that the party is extremely divided.  What this means, I'm not sure.  Is she DLC and meaning to expunge the left from the party?  Is she looking for McCain to win since Hillary can't, so she could run again?  Is she just extremely shortsighted?  Impossible to tell without internet ESP.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:47:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually... (2.00 / 5)

By framing the Democratic Primary as either/or rather than both/and, it drives a wedge between the supporters of each candidate.

Umm.. it is either/or.  We can only have one President at a time.  That isn't TexasDarlin framing it that way, that's how our Constitution frames it.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:35:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Last I checked... (2.00 / 2)

The loser doesn't die, Bob.  If Obama wins, the long knives don't come out to kill Hillary Clinton.

It is both/and.  When Obama wins the general election, or if Clinton does somehow, the other will still be a powerful leader in congress.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:43:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's wonderful (2.00 / 3)

Meanwhile, only one can become President.  Last I checked, what we have been doing for the past year+ has been a process to select our next President, not our next "important person in Congress."  So, yes, it is and either/or choice.

The fact that you would even want to have an argument about this reminds me why I do not often try to engage in discussion with you.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:05:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm hurt. (2.00 / 1)

I don't mind debating with you, so what's with the dismissal?

Who cares who's president, in the long run?  I mean, I'd rather have Obama than Clinton, but in the end, what matters is digging ourselves out of this horrid situation that Bush's gotten us in, which I think either will do.  

We should feel blessed to have multiple strong leaders in the Democratic party who will be able to work in concert in the coming years.  The Republican did their best and could only scrape together one highly flawed candidate.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:42:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm hurt. (2.00 / 4)

I agree with the basic intent of your comment. But here is a perspective why Tex and other supporters will continue to write such diaries.

Write a diary on how Obama is wrong in calling a Democratic leader a liar, dishonest, untrustworthy and secretive politician. Tell Obama to stop with character assasination and you will see people being less angry towards him.

Till then Obama will remain a hypocrite in Hillary supporters mind.


by Sandeep on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:40:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is that really Obama? (2.00 / 3)

Is Obama calling Hillary and Bill names, or is he talking about factors that existed well before he was on the scene?

Are you saying that the Clintons aren't secretive?  How did it take so long for them to release their relevant documents if they weren't secretive?

Are you saying that the Clintons don't have a liberal attitude towards the truth... when they've been caught, and admitted to, lying on multiple occasions?

Are you saying that the polls haven't come out to say that Clinton's trustworthiness rating is below 40%?

How is it hypocritical to point out these issues?


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:28:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is that really Obama? (2.00 / 3)

Are you saying Obama's character assasination is poll driven?

There is a link between which views leading figures give credence too and how those views are polled.

Will you ever hear leading Republicans say Bush is a liar, divisive, untrustworthy? This is inspite of some of them being against Bush for so long especially on Iraq.

Obama campaign parroted the smears against Clintons, which were created by Republicans with the hopes of impressing the independents and cross over republicans. Do you see 50% (or in fact more) of the Democratic party has this perspective?


by Sandeep on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:56:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Facts, not character assassination (2.00 / 1)

You can talk about something without it being attack, even if it's negative.

Those were the official exit polls for Pennsylvania, if I remember correctly.  How is that a Republican smear?


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:18:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is that really Obama? (2.00 / 4)

These issues are spun out of whole cloth and perpetuated here and in the media.  We could do a nice montage of Obama's 'miss-statements' and call him dishonest and we could run a nice montage of Obama saying things about HIllary's character and say he's being Rovian.  That is the hypocrisy.  Obama and his supporters project this 'holier than thou' attitude that is sooo disingenuous.  He went negative on Hillary a long time ago ~ I don't know where you all were, but you sure like to pretend that it never happened.


by Mags on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:33:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 9)

Actually, I don't see pro-Clinton demonstrating any anxiety or nervousness.  Rather, it stems from Obama's proponents who understand intuitively that something feels off and wrong compared to the highs of February.  Generally, proponents of Obama despise having to address criticism about their largely unknown nominee.  I can't say I blame them, because it seems every stone that is turned over uncovers something that undercuts the romanticized illusion of a revolutionary unifier.  This is most evident from the expansive efforts to attack and silence any contributor who would raise questions about Barack Obama.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:12:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Raising questions is one thing... (2.00 / 2)

...and the constant smears on this site are something completely different.

We still occasionally get diarists... frequently recced diarists even... with fake concern over whether Obama is a marxist secret muslim terrorist Black Panther with acid for blood and burning pants.  

Of course that's an exaggeration, but not by much.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:26:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Marxism? (2.00 / 5)

There are many liberals who have no problem with marxism.  I guess you aren't one.  But fact is, Obama does have a lot of lifelong associations with extremely radical left-wingers.  Anything wrong with that?  No, but it doesn't necessarily appeal to a broader electorate, which is what's necessary to win the GE.  Eyes on the prize, guys.


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:36:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Marxism? (2.00 / 3)

He also has ties to some pretty right-wing folks.  His view of being president is that you're the president of the entire country, not just the people who share your politics.  Bush was in err when he insisted that he owed his presidency's efforts to the people that elected him, rather than the broader base of people who agreed to elect our leader democratically.

Bill Clinton also shared this view, as he was a centrist both in issues and in overall politics.  The difference between them is that Obama maintains left-leaning overall standpoints while bringing the right to the table to see who has the ideas that can work.

I don't see how Obama being friends with a firebrand minister, a marxist, or a pro-life Republican has anything to do with his own character, just as I don't think that the Clintons long rogue's gallery impugnes Hillary's character or electability.  

You go for public office, you are going to meet and interact with a lot of people.  You can't dive over tables and ram wooden stakes through the heart of people you find disreputable or you disagree with; we all get along as best we can, flaws and all.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:49:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 1)

On ABC's This Week today, George Will pointed out that Obama has been on a losing streak since Wisconsin.  I'm sure he's frustrated that he hasn't been able to "close."


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:33:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (1.66 / 3)

It's always interesting when clintonites quote rabid right wingers. Why would Democrats care what the Repugs think? I guess only DINOs would really care. Frustration is what loser feel darlin, we're winning, and as hillary is unable to catch up, at this point it's only those who try and bury their heads in the sand, who are still trying to pretend that their candidate has turned in Huckabee.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Bill Clinton
by venician on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:41:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 6)

Lately, it doesn't matter who says it.  the other day someone attacked me for quoting George Stephonaupolus.  I was also attacked for quoting the NYT and CNN.  So, let me know who we're allowed to cite and I'll try to stick to that list.  The point is that George Will is not the only commentator who has said this.


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:46:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (1.36 / 11)

But darlin, your own discusting hate filled blog is filled with nothing but right wing sources. Your alegiance to the Dem. party could be seen as quite suspect if all you do is parrot their talking points.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Bill Clinton
by venician on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:58:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 2)

I thought Obama wanted to listen to right wing view points based on the above poster. Then why is it wrong when someone else listen to opposing views and bring it to table for discussion?


by Sandeep on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:35:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (none / 0)

And further upthread you rail against Obama for using republican attacks...

Hmmm. You would have thought NOT contradicting yourself on the same diary would have been quite an easy ask.

Obviously, not for some.


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:26:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 2)

"filled with nothing but right wing sources?"

Let's see...

It starts with L.A. Times.

Then..

2. NYT

  1. MSNBC (oh right, you only like them when they say bad things about Hillary)
  2. Huffington Post
  3. Talk Left

I deleted Andy Martin.

Please clarify your comment.


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 12:50:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Losing streak? (2.00 / 3)

A "streak" would imply that he hasn't won at all in that time.  Mississippi, Vermont, Wyoming, and, yes, Texas, would suggest otherwise.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:54:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Losing streak? (none / 0)

Hillary has received more votes in all of the high-profile contests since February.  Vermont, Mississippi, American Samoa, Rhode Island, Wyoming, and the Texas caucus barely made any blip on the national radar except among us, the hardcore politics crowd.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 12:33:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Losing streak? (none / 0)

yeah, those states don't count.


"Don't let it end this way; tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa
by shef on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 01:52:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 1)

A losing streak since Wisconsin?

Well....

There have been seven contests since Wisconsin and Obama won three, each with FAR larger margins than any of Clinton's in that period.  I don't know for sure, but I believe that due to these large wins and Clinton's smaller ones, he increased his lead of pledged delegates since Wisconsin. And he certainly has gained more superdelegates than Clinton since Wisconsin.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:25:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (none / 0)

I laughed when he said that because there was a 6 week break between OH/TX and PA.

And Obama got more delegates from TX.  Oh, nevermind.


by chewie5656 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:40:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have to agree (2.00 / 2)

Both sides have their moments when they are nasty.

But I just don't see the type of anxiety from Hillary's camp as I do from most of you who come here to support Obama.  I mean, we realize we are the underdog, but we just seem a lot more confident about it.

Not sure why that is.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:37:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Because Hillary didn't come to this contest (2.00 / 1)

as a relative unknown with a tremendous gift for oratory. As she said in the Pennsylvania debate, "I know I have baggage, but it's already been rummaged through." When you come onto the scene as mostly a blank slate, loftily selling hope and unity, it's a bit unnerving for your supporters when your carefully concealed baggage begins to open a seam here and there.  


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:56:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think that their reception elsewhere has been... (2.00 / 1)

I think that their reception elsewhere has been a lot less questioning than it has been here at MyDD. Obama has had a pretty clear coast up till quite recently, I think. The MSM was so obviously supporting him.

So, I think a lot of the folk who push Obama here are used to people agreeing with things they say even if they are somewhat ridiculous. I wonder what will happen if he wins the nomination?

I actually think a lot of the Obama supporters here would dissappear, because their goal might be that, Obama being the Dem nominee, only, and not his winning the GE.

We'll have to see.

That will be the test, for sure.


Universal healthcare IS a Democratic value
It's been defeated
Obama has the best $PIN that money can buy.
by architek on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:42:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 3)

What is the difference between a "hit piece," like this one, and a "substantive diary," like the umpteenth anti-Clinton Bosnia diary?


by dhonig on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:44:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (none / 0)

What does it signify when one shows outrage at the diaries showing Obama as another crooked politician and then calling Hillary a liar, divisive, secretive, not trustworthy politician?

Hypocrisy to the maximum.


by Sandeep on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:42:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (none / 0)

You are being intentionally obtuse ~ The difference is quite obvious.


by Mags on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:39:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 7)

Ragekage, you know what the main difference is between Obama and Clinton supporters on this site?  It's not our passion or commitment or eloquence.  It's that Obama supporters routinely direct their attacks at other bloggers and diarists, at Hillary supporters.  Whereas, Clinton supporters focus on the issues and the candidates.  That is why I will not be joining your "debate."  You guys don't play fair, so I'm not interested.

Your comment here is just one more example of that.  Re-direct your attacks and I'll reconsider.


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:49:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Playground rules (1.66 / 6)

Common wisdom goes, the kid on the playground who is punished is not the one that throws the first punch, but the kid who defends him or herself and is spotted by the playground supervisor.

What you're doing is claiming to be the victim when ragekage notices that all you post is notorious slander.  

TexasDarlin, cut out the hatchet jobs and join the rest of civilization with fair and honest debate.  I guarantee you that you'll find Obama supporters more "fair" than you might believe now.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playground rules (2.00 / 3)

Stop with your drama, sarcasm and personal attacks.  Your posts often contain all three.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:39:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I seriously doubt that. (1.16 / 6)

Pointing out that TexasDarlin is a slanderer is not a personal attack if it's true.

I don't post hatchet diaries that cause drama, that's largely the domain, at least on this blog, of radical Clinton supporters.  That's why the recc list is constantly full of hit jobs and sensationalism.

Look at my diary contributions.  When have I ever tried to start drama?  I try to diffuse drama by writing about true issues that everyone invested in the Democratic primaries have to face.  The closest you'll come to finding that was me listing all the standardized talking points from anti-Obama diaries on a given day for humor value.

If you don't like sarcasm, I'm sorry, bobbank.  Sometimes sarcasm is the most effective tool in explaining how a position is foolish.  Further, to suggest that Darlin or other Clinton supporters aren't being sarcastic in their false concern is disingenuous.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:51:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I seriously doubt that. (none / 0)

Well you can read my non-nested post bellow.

I didn't suggest anything.  I spoke to you very directly.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:02:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Playground rules (none / 0)

Drama and sarcasm are banned here? Didn't know that.

I know sarcasm is supposed to be the lowest form of wit.

But threats show no wit at all.


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:29:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

stop the personal attacks (2.00 / 3)


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:45:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 3)

I don't know which MyDD you're in, Texas. I've called a cultist, I've been called elitist, I've been tarred for simply supporting Obama.


"Don't let it end this way; tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa
by shef on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:33:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (none / 0)

Well in the heat of the moment, someone would have called you cultist, elitist, etc just like I have been called many things for supporting Hillary. We are adults and we can ignore such name calling. But trying to muzzle any efforts of highlighting Obama's negatives is hypocrisy when one campaign continues to disrespect and demean Hillary's character.


by Sandeep on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:02:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (none / 0)

I've got a clearer and more provable example of hypocrisy...

Calling Obama 'crooked' on several occasions on this diary thread and then demanding that Hillary's character not be disrespected and demeaned.

L'hypocrite lecteur, c'est toi.


by brit on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:33:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 3)

Texas, I love you, but issues such as him flipping Hillary the bird aren't issues.  It's "let throw it up against the wall and see if it sticks."

How about some Pro-Hillary diaries instead of all of the Anti-Obama ones?


by chewie5656 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:49:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 1)

I agree with you that flipping the bird was a non-issue. Obama is too smart to ever do such things. (And personally I think he is a good man with good moral values who wouldnt do such crass things).

But most of the other issues against Obama are valid concerns for Hillary supporters. Being a good man doesnt mean one can not be a hypocrite or a crooked politician, which is what I think he is.


by Sandeep on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:07:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (none / 0)

You're spot on..any question of BO's record gets a direct vicious personal attack..no substance just anger and vitriole..


by grego101 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 3)

yes, his  pastor called him just a politician, which meant he was lying. I can understand why you want to speak for him Rage, he is having a tough time of it, even the media that likes him is seeing his flaws these days.  I like him the same, but he never was my first choice, so who cares about me.  His luster is gone, and it's probably too late for him to run on issues and solutions, anyway he couldn't best Hillary so he'd just be seen as second best. But, second best to Hillary is quite high.  He made it into the world series, got to hand it to a Chicago politician for getting so far.  


by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:24:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 1)

Anna, you're right about Rev. Wright calling out Obama as just a politician.  LOL.  I don't think that part was scripted...


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:27:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (1.40 / 5)

You said Obama couldn't best hillary, but Anna, he has lready bested her. Do you not know how many states he's won, or delegates, or populare votes? You can't be that clueless, can you?


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Bill Clinton
by venician on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:50:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Funny. (2.00 / 4)

I get a good laugh out of the fact that Wright is still being reduced to a soundbyte, when his meaning was drastically different.

This guy can't win with the media.  They hate that he's more complex than, say, Britney Spears or Paris Hilton.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:01:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Funny. (2.00 / 3)

Donna said that he is thinking of himself and his own reputation and thinks that's bigger than whether he's hurting Barack.  What would make him think he wouldn't be reduced to sound bites, everyone is, why would he think he could be an exception.  he's really doing Barack a big disservice, that had dropped out of the regular news, it was just being kept alive by McCain supporters in any nasty way. A lot of Hilary supporters don't hold Barack responsible for his pastor, and I kind of agree with him about how our foreign policy hasn't been lofty, we've caused quite a lot of harm.  He's too extreme for me to agree with entirely and too paranoid but he's not entirely wrong, and I can see that he's a nice man and means well. but he is not helping Barack.  Barack can't even blame Hillary for his pastor problem anymore, not that that was ever credible, now he has to blame his pastor, and himself for not choosing a smarter radical pastor who knew enough to keep his mouth shut.  


by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:20:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What a sad life (1.50 / 2)

I, personally, and Obama and Wright I'm sure as well, don't want to live my life worrying about how banal, small people might misconstrue my words.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:31:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a sad life (none / 0)

than you have to stop worrying cause it'll happen.  How wrong of Wright to think of his own self while his parishioner is running for prez.  Seems Wright isn't above worrying, and wanting to se the record straight about him. Who cares, he's not running for prez.


by anna shane on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:38:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Funny. (2.00 / 3)

Yes, I'm sure that's it.  The media hates Wright because he's more complex than Paris Hilton.  It has absolutely nothing to do with what he said, and admitting that Barack will say whatever he needs to say, as a politician, was not a gaffe.

And these are not the droids you're looking for.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:41:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Did you listen to the whole interview? (none / 0)

It's impossible to believe that Wright has any antipathy towards Obama if you listen to the whole interview.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/042520 08/watch2.html

The fact that you think that lying and being a politician are irrevocably intertwined is your own warped belief.  I believe that a politican can be honest and trustworthy.  Luckily, I seem to be supporting one.  What about you?


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:39:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did you listen to the whole interview? (none / 0)

I dont believe Obama is honest and trustworthy. And I will bet on this that if he ever becomes the President, his dishonesty will be the talking point of most Americans within 2 years of his Presidency. In fact, that is Obama's biggest fear and hence the words "fierce urgency of now". Because he knows his dishonesty and trustworthiness will be exposed the more he sticks arond in Washington.


by Sandeep on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:16:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That was fast. (2.00 / 1)

Just a few posts up, responding to chewie5656, you said this:

I think he is a good man with good moral values...

But now he's dishonest and untrustworthy?

Your "fears" are based entirely on supposition and distortion.  "The fierce urgency of now" is a reference to the fact that the country is in serious trouble based on old-style politics, not because he's racing the clock against some major revelation of his duplicity.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:23:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did you listen to the whole interview? (none / 0)

That's a little harsh, I mean its not like he's Bill "the meaning of is" Clinton.


by Socraticsilence on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 02:28:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 3)

Yeah right... if this had come out about HILLARY you've be leading the charge of villagers up the hill to drag her down over this.

Face it - the diarist raises a fair question - what DID BO do to earn all that $$?

Until someone can provide documentation or proof of what went down we have every right to ask these questions.  


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:23:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (1.66 / 3)

Yeah right. If this came out about Hillary, I'd figure, who the hell cares? She's done more than enough for me to disagree with her and her campaign,  and this is stupid. Oh no, a Senator working for their constituents? Go figure.

But heck, I look forward to your chop job on the same subject, alegre. God forbid you answered any real hard questions about your candidate, or tried to heal the rift between Obama and Clinton supporters you helped to perpetuate.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:28:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wait a minute (none / 0)

Wasn't there a big flap about her tax records not long ago, where no one had any real questions? She has allowed something like 30 years of records out, how about Obama?

I think this is a legitimate question. It wasn't that long ago.


by splashy on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:24:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (none / 0)

While acknowledging that there were likely no technical violations

the diarist as much as admitted that there probably wasn't anything nefarious going on.

you can't prove that there was, you can only ask questions. And asking questions isn't all that good an argument. For that, you have to make a positive claim. For example: Barack Obama did something nefarious in exchange for getting paid. That's a claim, and one without positive evidence.

Make a claim, and I'll listen. But raising questions doesn't do much. For example: Is Barack Obama satan? prove me wrong! Did Barack Obama eat his puppy? prove me wrong!

These aren't good arguments, anymore then the bullshit over "is HRC running for 2012?" is a good argument.

Lastly, this:

Yeah right... if this had come out about HILLARY you've be leading the charge of villagers up the hill to drag her down over this.

is irrelevant. Seriously. But if it'll help you take me and my argument seriously, I'd encourage you to take a gander through this obama supporter's diaries and comments. You'll see I've spoken out against the bosnia nonsense, the 2012 crap, the HRC's fake tears bullshit, etc.


"Don't let it end this way; tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa
by shef on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 02:00:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 1)

ragekage-

I am not TR'ing you because I know you to be better than that.  But your post is trolling.  If you have a rebuttal, a counter-argument, or facts of your own to present, please do so.

I think this was one of TexasDarlin's better diaries - it did not have an extremely confrontational tone and it prevented you with a series of facts, backed by citation.

If you think she has something wrong, let us know.


Eyes on the Prize: Hillary 08
by bobbank on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:32:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Time to start TR'ing Rage, Bob. I did. (none / 0)

I never used to TR him, but he's had probably a dozen of them from me today.  Rage is on a ragepage.... I mean rampage... against Clinton posters today.  He's being a typical Daily Kos troll.  He jumps into a diary as one of the first commenters, personally attacks the diarist, and hijacks the issues contained within the thread.

I never said this before today, but you have to call them like you see them.  As of today, Rage is nothing more than a typical Daily Kos Obama troll.

Hopefully, he takes a break and comes back normal again.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:02:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to start TR'ing Rage, Bob. I did. (none / 0)

You're abusing the user guidelines:

* Do not troll rate (rating as 0) another user's comment unless it is a comment that is an attack on another user. Abusing this privilege will result in all your ratings being erased and/or getting a warning, or being banned.

If you incite another user to do so, you're really in line to get reported.


by brit on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 12:17:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So why, brit, did you then TR me? (none / 0)


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 01:02:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So why, brit, did you then TR me? (none / 0)

I think he did that cause you accidentally TR'd him downthread.  I'm sure he'll remove it when it's brought to his attention.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 01:36:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So why, brit, did you then TR me? (none / 0)

No map, it was a complete accident. I never troll except for content free, abusive, racist or sexist comments. But thanks for the good faith. Much appreciated.


by brit on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 02:13:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So why, brit, did you then TR me? (none / 0)

Hey. Did I? Wow. Total accident. Never trolled you, only mojo'ed you in my time here. I'll check my comments. Must have been a problem with the up down arrows. Consider it removed.


by brit on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 02:01:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So why, brit, did you then TR me? (none / 0)

Some confusion here. PJJefferson trolled you on this diary. I can't find any instance of ever trolling you, Travis.


by brit on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 02:06:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So why, brit, did you then TR me? (none / 0)

Ah. Found it. Damn those arrow keys. Especially when the thread is long. Mojo'ed you instead (which I meant to do)

I wish Jerome would use the extra money generated in these flame wars to update the software, don't you?


by brit on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 02:08:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So why, brit, did you then TR me? (none / 0)

No worries brit. As you can see I did the same thing in that thread, though I don't know how. How about we just blame the software! ;-)


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:46:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why point a rule out to me that I followed? nt (none / 0)

He's been personally attacking people all day, so I've been TR'ing him all day.  He can either take a break, come back, and be more civil like he usually is, or he can continue being a troll, and I'll continue to TR his personal attacks and thread hijacks.  


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 01:08:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why point a rule out to me that I followed? nt (none / 0)

Two wrongs do not make a right. You're still breaking the guidelines. What I read of ragecage's was attacking the diary, which is permissible. Retaliation, and conscripting others in that retaliation is not. You know that.


by brit on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 02:04:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why point a rule out to me that I followed? nt (none / 0)

I do know that, but I must be reading different comments, or reading the same comments differently than you.  All I know is he earned every one I gave him.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 07:41:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And btw. For a guy capable of hijacking a thread (none / 0)

the second it is posted (Rage), his silence in objecting to my TR'ing him a full twelve hours ago is deafening.  And by extension, that means that you are defending someone who is so guilty of the charged offense that he didn't even bother to show up to defend himself.  Which raises questions about your judgment in defending him in the first place.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:01:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And btw. For a guy capable of hijacking a thre (none / 0)

Wrong! Whatever ragecage did in TR abuse, it wasn't flagged up in an open comment as yours is. So you've effectively confessed to trolling in this thread.

Look. People get into all kinds of arguments here. I'm not taking sides on this against you with ragecage. Just don't use the troll system to argue with your opposite. Prove him wrong, call him out, use some wit and invective. But the TR system isn't a point scoring system. All your negative ratings, given or taken, effect your status.

Ignore me if you want, but you'll just find your access to the site highly limited. Ragecage too if he's doing the same thing.


by brit on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 05:20:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Are we having the same discussion? (none / 0)

I'm scratching my head.  

You keep suggesting that I TRd Rage because I disagreed with something he typed about an issue, and I keep telling you that is not the case.  I TR'd him for personally insulting diarists and hijacking threads.  I'd rather not point this out again, so please read what I'm typing here.  If you can point to a TR I gave him because I disagreed with him on a political issue, point it out and I'll retract it.  


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 07:16:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are we having the same discussion? (none / 0)

I'm not trying to harass you here, I'm just trying to explain the abuse of guidelines.

The trolling rules here are notoriously flexible, but apart from overt racist/sexist abuse, the key guide is 'content free' posts.

Most of ragecage's posts I read were attacks on the diary sources and the content. Insults are hurled either way, but in this grey area of what constitutes 'insulting' the question of 'content' is key.

But that's not why you should be reported. It would be up to ragecage to do that and the admins to decide. My point is that you actively and openly incited someone else to troll a user, and the motivation for it, expressed in your post, was personal.

I'm sure it's a one off and you won't do it again. I'm also sure that if you think about the incitement aspect, you'll understand how that goes over the edge.


by brit on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:26:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

TexasDarling...hit diaries as usual. (1.26 / 15)


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:15:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

On MyDD, Texasdarin' can be a star!!! (1.00 / 8)

Common sense does not apply in this tiny precious feedback loop.


by dystopianfuturetoday on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:24:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe You Could Answer the Question Then (2.00 / 2)

What exactly did BO do to earn all that money - hmmmmm????


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:24:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maybe You Could Answer the Question Then (1.50 / 4)

You can't be freakin' serious. There's millions of dollars of holes in where the Clinton's income came from, and you dismissed that as irrelevant.

Really, Alegre, I gotta say, if you think anyone's going to take you seriously after the nomination, you need to take a serious look at the bridges you've burned. Heck, the only ones who take you seriously now are those who are completely and totally, Hillary-is-44-esque in the tank for Clinton.

So what's your purpose? You're not furthering any dialog, you're not convincing anyone to support your candidate, merely furthering the divide and playing the propaganda points from the Clinton campaign. Tell me what your purpose is, Alegre? What are you trying to achieve?


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:31:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maybe You Could Answer the Question Then (2.00 / 1)

If Clinton is corrupt (as per you), does it allow Obama to be corrupt?

Are we choosing between 2 corrupt same old Chicago style politicians?


by Sandeep on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:20:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

To be fair... (none / 0)

Hillary was never a Chicago politician, she just grew up there.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:24:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maybe You Could Answer the Question Then (none / 0)

Hey, Hillary's more a hybrid southern  "Huey Long" corrupt + NYC "Boss Tweed" corrupt politician.


by Socraticsilence on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 02:32:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 5)

This is the politician whose campaign had the audacity to say:

"Sen. Clinton is the most secretive politician in America today. This has been a pattern throughout her career of the lack of disclosure."  

I agree to your statement - The electorate does not know about BHO except his speeches. Now 10 months into the primary we are getting to know more about BHO . The MSM has clearly not done their Job.


by indus on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:10:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Chicago Politics as Usual (2.00 / 3)

Couldn't agree more.  But we are starting to see signs of buyer's remorse by the MSM, just in the nick of time, too.


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:23:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]