From Messiah to Mere Mortal

Remember Obama's soaring rhetoric, when he was going to go to the White House and change how things are done here in DC?  When he talked of how he was going to bang some heads together and "force" folks to work together from each side of that aisle?  We've heard it all before and the candidates who talk this line from our party usually lose - and they lose big.

Could it be that along the way that sheepskin fell off and voters discovered the wolf underneath?  The wolf who ends up using those same attack-and-accuse tactics of elections gone by.  Well after the last 6 or 7 weeks in PA we've seen just how ugly Obama can get despite his claims that he's leading us in a new direction.  The gloves have come off and baby they won't be put back on before we get to Denver.

There's been a lot written about this topic over the past few days.  Take a look at what Johnathan Weisman had to say over at the Washington Post the day after Hillary's huge win in Pennsylvania...

Obama's Gloves Are Off -- And May Need to Stay Off

Unable once again to score a knockout, Sen. Barack Obama is likely to make his new negative tone even more negative -- with a sharp eye on trying to end the Democratic presidential nomination fight after the May 6 primaries in Indiana and North Carolina.

(Ending it on May 6th?  Dream on boys)

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's victory yesterday in Pennsylvania has only accentuated the quandary that Obama faces: Stay negative and he risks undermining the premise of his candidacy. Stay aloof and he underscores Clinton's argument that he will not be able to beat a "Republican attack machine" sure to greet him this summer.  

snip

Obama himself took up the cudgel after Clinton delivered a victory speech in Philadelphia devoid of attack lines. Without naming Clinton, he suggested in Evansville, Ind., that she is a captive to the oil, pharmaceutical and insurance lobbies, that she "says and does whatever it takes to win the next election," and that she exploits division for political gain.

snip

But the candidate who rocketed to stardom as the embodiment of a new kind of politics -- hopeful, positive and inspiring -- saw his image tarnished in the bruising fight for Pennsylvania.

snip

"It's a real danger for Obama, and if you look at these recent ads, the messages they're delivering in all these conference calls, it's a far cry from last fall," when the theme of hope emerged amid calls for a more negative tone, said Democratic consultant Steve Elmendorf, a Clinton supporter.

Here's what Elmendorf was talking about re that conference call...

Today, the Obama campaign called a conference call with the express purpose of attacking Hillary's character over Bosnia. Obama surrogate Gen. Walter Stewart said the following:

"One of the inherent duties of the president of the United States is to lay a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier on Memorial Day. Now we can assume, and let's keep in mind that Senator Clinton has said she was under sniper fire, or she joked about, which to me was the cruelest part of all this, she joked about it with Jay Leno. We can make an assumption here that the honored dead within the Tomb of the Unknown was killed by a sniper. Imagine the lack of moral authority she has now to lay a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier on Memorial Day. I'll say this as a Vietnam veteran, hundreds, we can speculate about how the unknown died. But you go over to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall and will certainty there are hundreds on that wall that died under sniper fire. That's the incident I think in a nutshell."

...So, let's look at moral authority as the essential element of leadership. President George Bush, Sen. Clinton, Sen. McCain have squandered the moral authority of the United States of America and our ability to lead the free people's of the world; and the oppressed peoples of the world towards freedom. Sen. Barack Obama displays the moral authority we need for a change in Washington D.C. [Obama Campaign Conference Call, 4/19/08]

Ok so back to that Washington Post article...

If Obama's image was coarsened in Pennsylvania, the next round of primaries may do it even more damage. But Obama advisers say the campaign is in a far different place than it was last fall. The senator from Illinois is much better known nationally, with an image that will not be easily recast -- either by his opponents or his own tactics.

snip

In recent days, the Obama campaign has flogged Clinton's exaggerations about a long-ago trip to Bosnia, framed comments she made about MoveOn.org activists as her own version of "Bitter-gate, " and accused her of tactics reminiscent of Democratic nemesis Karl Rove. "Senator Clinton has internalized a lot of the strategies and the tactics that have made Washington such a miserable place, where all we do is bicker and all we do is fight," Obama said last weekend.

With Obama clearly favored in North Carolina, even he has called Indiana the "tiebreaker, " a state that adjoins Illinois but where Clinton voters hold sway in the working-class towns in the south. In the two weeks leading up to the Indiana primary, a Democratic strategist familiar with the Obama campaign said aides are likely to turn to the controversies of Bill Clinton's White House years -- Hillary Clinton's trading cattle futures, Whitewater and possibly impeachment.

snip

"There's a reason Sen. Obama and his campaign have ratcheted up their year-long assault on Sen. Clinton's character and ended the Pennsylvania campaign with a flurry of harsh negative attacks," a Clinton campaign memo asserted yesterday. "It's because they know that a loss in Pennsylvania will raise troubling questions about his candidacy and his ability to take on John McCain in the general election."

Hillary's new strategist, Geoff Garin wrote an op ed that ran in yesterday's Washington Post in which he points the double standards where the tone of this campaign goes.  He starts out by talking about the ad they ran in PA, where they point out the challenges that will face our next leader on day one and ask who voters think is best prepared to tackle those challenges.  He then points to an appearance on Meet the Press where Axelrod said Hillary wasn't prepared to bring the necessary changes to DC, and said the Obama campaign had sent out mailers to PA's voters calling Hillary "the master of a broken system." (and this is me here - ignoring the fact that his boss has been in DC since 2005 and is pretty damn cozy with big donors and lobbyists himself).  Take a look...

Fair Is Fair

So let me get this straight.

On the one hand, it's perfectly decent for Obama to argue that only he has the virtue to bring change to Washington and that Clinton lacks the character and the commitment to do so. On the other hand, we are somehow hitting below the belt when we say that Clinton is the candidate best able to withstand the pressures of the presidency and do what's right for the American people, while leaving the decisions about Obama's preparedness to the voters.

Who made up those rules? And who would ever think they are fair?

snip

It's an important distinction. The Obama campaign has chosen from its inception not to treat Clinton with the same respect. In fact, the Obama campaign has made an unprecedented assault on her character -- not her positions, but her character -- saying one thing about raising the tone of political discourse but acting quite differently in its treatment of Clinton.

Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, held a conference call with reporters and called Hillary "one of the most secretive politicians in America today" -- a striking personal charge in the era of Dick Cheney.

Axelrod described Clinton as having "a special interest obsession."

Obama himself has joined the character assault from time to time, saying, for example, that Clinton "doesn't have the sense that things need to change in Washington" -- a patently false and demeaning observation.

Garin then goes on to point to Obama's false claim during the last debate that he only talks about Hillary's gaff re Bosnia when asked.  But that was a bold-faced lie, as noted in this Fact Hub entry AND by the bit above re that horrid comment by a general during one of BO's press conference calls...

Source

Sen. Obama Falsely Claims His Campaign Only Talks About Bosnia When Asked
4/16/2008 9:27:24 PM

Senator Obama just said the only reason his campaign has raised Bosnia was because they were asked about it. That is not the case. The following are some examples of the proactive attacks they have launched:

Obama campaign memo: 'Clinton's fantastic invention of a sniper-raked landing is only one in a growing list of instances in which she has exaggerated her role as first lady.' "'Clinton's fantastic invention of a sniper-raked landing is only one in a growing list of instances in which she has exaggerated her role as first lady, particularly with respect to domestic policy,' a scorching campaign memo said in one of the harshest broadsides to date." [New York Post, 3/27/08]

Obama campaign memo: 'Unfortunately, Clinton's fantastic invention of a sniper-raked landing is only one in a growing list of instances where she has exaggerated her role as First Lady, particularly with respect to domestic policy.' [Obama campaign memo, 3/26/08]

Obama campaign memo: `Senator Clinton's claims about her visit to Tuzla, Bosnia - and the footage disproving her account - have created quite a stir. And with good reason.' Senator Clinton's claims about her visit to Tuzla, Bosnia--and the footage disproving her account--have created quite a stir. And with good reason. As the Associated press wrote yesterday: "What makes Clinton's situation unique--and the Bosnia embellishments so damaging--is the fact that the New York senator has built her candidacy on the illusion of experience. Any attack on her credentials is a potential Achilles heel." [Obama campaign memo, 3/26/08]

Obama campaign memo: 'The claims Senator Clinton makes turn out to be little more than stories.' "The refrain that Senator Clinton 'has the experience to lead on Day One' has been repeated endlessly since she entered the race. On closer inspection, the claims Senator Clinton makes turn out to be little more than stories. With the next primary less than a month away, it's time for Senator Clinton to finally face the 'vetting' she's so fond of discussing. Badly trailing in delegates, votes, and states won, she's going to need more than a new script to win the nomination. But if she wants to regain the trust of the American people, it would be a good place to start." [Obama campaign memo, 3/26/08]

Obama Press Release: `"Misspoke"? Clinton's Prepared Remarks on Bosnia Join Similar Stretches on FMLA, SCHIP, and NAFTA' [Obama Campaign Press Release, 3/24/08]


(Please see above link for links to sourcing - hyperlinks at each date in brackets)

So back to Gerin's op ed...

The bottom line is that one campaign really has engaged in a mean-spirited, unfair character attack on the other candidate -- but it has been Obama's campaign, not ours. You would be hard-pressed to find significant analogues from our candidate, our senior campaign officials or our advertising to the direct personal statements that the Obama campaign has made about Clinton.

The problem is that the Obama campaign holds itself to a different standard than the one to which it holds us -- and sometimes the media do, too.

Hillary Clinton is a strong and determined person, and she will continue to discuss real solutions to America's problems and the need for strong leadership to implement those solutions -- even if she must play by a different set of rules than Barack Obama. But wouldn't it be better if in this campaign what's good for the goose were also good for the gander? After all, in America, fair is supposed to be fair.

Next up - Paul Krugman.  Sigh... I absolutely ADORE this man!!!!  

Self-Inflicted Confusion

A few months ago the Obama campaign was talking about transcendence. Now it's talking about math. "Yes we can" has become "No she can't."

This wasn't the way things were supposed to play out.

snip

Well, now he has an overwhelming money advantage and the support of much of the Democratic establishment -- yet he still can't seem to win over large blocs of Democratic voters, especially among the white working class.

snip

According to many Obama supporters, it's all Hillary's fault. If she hadn't launched all those vile, negative attacks on their hero -- if she had just gone away -- his aura would be intact, and his mission of unifying America still on track.

snip

Let me offer an alternative suggestion: maybe his transformational campaign isn't winning over working-class voters because transformation isn't what they're looking for.

From the beginning, I wondered what Mr. Obama's soaring rhetoric, his talk of a new politics and declarations that "we are the ones we've been waiting for" (waiting for to do what, exactly?) would mean to families troubled by lagging wages, insecure jobs and fear of losing health coverage. The answer, from Ohio and Pennsylvania, seems pretty clear: not much. Mrs. Clinton has been able to stay in the race, against heavy odds, largely because her no-nonsense style, her obvious interest in the wonkish details of policy, resonate with many voters in a way that Mr. Obama's eloquence does not.

Yes, I know that there are lots of policy proposals on the Obama campaign's Web site. But addressing the real concerns of working Americans isn't the campaign's central theme.

Tellingly, the Obama campaign has put far more energy into attacking Mrs. Clinton's health care proposals than it has into promoting the idea of universal coverage.

snip

The question Democrats, both inside and outside the Obama campaign, should be asking themselves is this: now that the magic has dissipated, what is the campaign about?

Good question.  I hate to say it but I'm guessing his answer will be "more of the same" although that really wouldn't make sense because more of the same will still leave him without much of the core of Democratic voters that he's been unable to reach to date.  He's attacked Hillary over her healthcare plan, lied about it and misrepresented his own plan as universal in nature (it's not).

You know if he'd spent as much energy attacking the problems in our health care system as he has in attacking Hillary's plan, he'd be much further along the path toward winning over those Democrats he's been unable to reach thus far.

He also sent out more lies about Hillary to voters in Indiana re NAFTA - something he's been called on over and over again but continues to send out to voters.  Take a look...

Source

Sen. Obama's new Indiana mailer is full of misrepresentations on the candidates' positions.

1.) The mailer falsely claims that Hillary strongly supported NAFTA as First Lady and Senator. This is false - Hillary publicly said NAFTA was flawed as early as 2000: "What happened to NAFTA I think was we inherited an agreement that we didn't get everything we should have got out of it in my opinion. I think the NAFTA agreement was flawed." Former White House adviser David Gergen confirms that Hillary was `extremely unenthusiastic' about NAFTA as First Lady. Watch Video here.

2.) The mailer suggests that Sen. Obama has `always opposed NAFTA.' But in 2004, newspapers reported that Sen. Obama supported NAFTA and wanted to pursue similar agreements.

3.) The mailer hits Hillary for accepting money from lobbyists, but doesn't tell you that Sen. Obama takes money from lobbying firms, state lobbyists, former lobbyists and the spouses of lobbyists. He has accepted $2.8 million from firms that employ federal lobbyists, and ten of his top bundlers have been federal lobbyists.

Prior to his presidential campaign, Sen. Obama accepted contributions from lobbyists and PACs. In his 2004 Senate race, Sen. Obama raised $1.3 million from PACs and $128,000 from lobbyists. As a state senator, over half of Sen. Obama's contributions came from PACs, corporate contributions, or unions.

4.) The mailer attacks Hillary for supporting permanent trade relations with China as a way to enforce fair trade practices, an argument Sen. Obama himself has made.

5.) The Obama mailer also hits Hillary for having support in the business community:

Just last week, Obama was bragging about his support in the business community:

Sen. Obama: 'I'm a big believer in business...That's probably the reason why I got such strong support in the business community in Illinois.' "I'm a big believer in business. I think business create jobs, I think that our economy has to grow in order for everybody to prosper. If we've got a shrinking economy, I don't care how the pie's divided. Sooner or later, we're going to have problems. That's probably the reason why I got such strong support in the business community in Illinois." [Sen. Obama interview with the Pittsburgh Post Gazette Editorial Board, 4/16/08]

Since the beginning of the Pennsylvania primary contest, we've gone from "silly season" to "ugly season" and this is only the beginning of it gang.  As that first Washington Post article pointed out, they could be talking about things that were dragged out, investigated 9 ways to Sunday and proven to be false back in the `90s in some desperate attempt to attack and divert attention away from his own shortcomings.

Maybe that's why he's gone and made big ad buys in all of the upcoming states.

Stay tuned.



Display:


Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (2.00 / 24)

His hands aren't clean - far from it.

Enough with the double standards already.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:04:12 PM EST

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (2.00 / 10)

Forgot this bit re voters' perceptions re negative campaigning...

http://facts.hillaryhub.com/archive/?id= 7269


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:06:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (1.66 / 9)

I saw "facts." and then "hillaryhub" and only registered "oxymoron."


by Capt America on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:16:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

OK, two can play that game (1.22 / 22)

I saw "facts" and then "Capt America" and only registered "moron."


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:21:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (2.00 / 2)

Hmm.  Personal attacks.

brushes shoulders off, then TRs


by Capt America on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:24:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (2.00 / 8)

How is it not a "personal attack" to trash a progressive Democrat?  You can dish it out, but you can't take it. Hypocrite.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:33:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (2.00 / 6)

I wasn't trashing a "progressive democrat."  I wasn't trashing a specific person at all.

Hillaryhub is a dump for pro-Clinton, anti-Obama propoganda.  Any facts found there are entirely unintentional.

I'm more than happy to go blow-for-blow, but when I get called a moron out of the blue, I tend to react negatively.


by Capt America on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:38:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (2.00 / 9)

You <b>are</b> trashing a progressive Democrat and her website with absolutely no refutation that the facts contained therein are inaccurate or incorrect.

What if I said "BarackObama.com is a dump for pro-Obama, anti-Clinton propaganda, and any facts found there are entirely unintentional?" That's not trashing Obama?


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:47:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (2.00 / 7)

If I used that as my primary source, I'd sure as hell hope you'd call me on it. What a way to write a diary. That's like asking Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, and Karl Rove as sources on the merits/weaknesses of the Republican party. They might have real points to make, but you better damn well believe it's all one-sided.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:53:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (2.00 / 8)

Stop being lazy and click the link. The source was MSNBC.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:58:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (2.00 / 3)

Campaign websites are campaign websites.  They're designed to guide viewers to specific conclusions based on the layout and information provided.  That's how propaganda works.

Much worse things have been said about both candidate's sites or the various blogs that slant towards either candidate.


by Capt America on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:54:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (2.00 / 7)

Ergo, your compulsion to trash the campaign source, which was 100% accurate, was gratituious at best.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:01:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (2.00 / 3)

My "compulsion" to trash it was based on my previous knowledge of the site, as being obviously Clinton-slanted.  Even if it's linking to outside sources, it's only going to be to things that fit their narrative.

Hence, finding anything but good news for Clinton on hillaryhub.com is roughly as likely as finding Shakespearian prose on icanhascheezeburger.com.


by Capt America on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:14:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (2.00 / 5)

Hence people are going to poke fun at you for spouting off without checking the facts behind a source.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:26:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Its obvious that Obama has serious problems (2.00 / 3)

with the truth... and no amount of online spin and morketing is going to change that.

However, it is clearly making some firms a lot of money.


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Comprehensively cover 100%, not only the healthiest 80%
by architek on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:43:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (2.00 / 4)

But that's not what you did, is it?  You put facts and hillaryhub together and came up with oxymoron.  Suppose I put barakobama.com and facts together and say it's an oxymoron?  I mean, duh, of course each campaign site will only link to information positive about their own candidate.  That doesn't make everything from the site an oxymoron.


by Montague on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:29:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (none / 0)

Okay, officially dude. Pick your battles.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:46:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (2.00 / 2)

out of the blue? you started the personal attacks...you should apologize.


by CalDem on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:58:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (2.00 / 4)

I saw "facts" and then "Capt America" and only registered "moron."

That's a personal attack. You called him a moron. I quote:

Zero is for comments that are offensive, script-generated, or otherwise content-free and intended solely to abuse other readers.

Of which that comment certainly applies.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:44:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (2.00 / 5)

It was a play on words intended to expose Capt. America's practice of not using a single fact to refute the content of website.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (none / 0)

If you'll grant you didn't mean to personally call him a moron, I'll be happy to un-downrate that post.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:53:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (2.00 / 4)

Suit yourself.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:36:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Get over yourself (1.66 / 3)


by miker2008 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:15:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (1.50 / 6)

After your candidate finishes losing the nomination and you have some free time , you can go hang out and with alegre and the 2 of you can take turns tripping over each others' pouty bottom lip while you make voodoo dolls of all of us evil Obama supporters with our clearly immoral habit of seeing reality and pointing it out (and our even more immoral habit of whipping the living shit out of your candidate in the delegate count).  

I am not too worried as I doubt that your dolls will be any more accurate than your perception of reality.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:34:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In your dreams.. (2.00 / 2)

people are wising up..

Your reality distortion field, your echo chamber is disintegrating..


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Comprehensively cover 100%, not only the healthiest 80%
by architek on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:47:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In your dreams.. (2.00 / 3)

Re: your signature -- Obama never said this would be easy.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:53:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In your dreams.. (1.66 / 6)

Why must so many stick with the silly view that Obama supporters are stupid or have been duped?  How superior must you think yourself to believe that 13 MILLION people are just too stupid to get it.

You might want to bend over, stick your head between your legs, and confirm that, indeed, your shit does stink.  Because the rest of us can smell it from here.


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:57:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In your dreams.. (1.66 / 3)

Aside from in state with an agrigate total of less than 150 last names, show me polls that indicate the remaining states are going to give the nomination to the sniper target.  

You can't.  As usual your statements are at odds with reality.  

Look your candidate managed to keep ahold of a little under half of the polling advantage that she had in a state with the most favorable demographics you could imagine.  La di freakin' dah.  She netted a paltry 10 delegates and North Carolina stands poised to undo that.  

Tell you what, how about we find a Las Vegas bookie that'll let us each bet an entire paycheck straight up on the nomination race.  I'll take Barack.  You take the McSame surrogate.  What d'ya say?


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:12:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, two can play that game (none / 0)

sweet. You need to never say anything negative about KO again.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:28:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (2.00 / 6)

If you'd bothered to follow the link you'd have seen that the info is completely sourced with ind. into.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:35:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (2.00 / 5)

Indeed. MSNBC reported 44% of voters said that both candidates were equally responsible for negative campaigning and 24% said that neither candidate attacked the other unfairly.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:56:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (2.00 / 5)

You forgot to mention the rest of the numbers showing that over 20% thought that only Clinton attacked unfairly, while less than 10% thought the same about Barack.  Why did you leave that out?



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:00:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (2.00 / 3)

I didn't leave anything out. That's what the link it for.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:05:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (1.75 / 4)

So the article that you linked to didn't leave it out.  You seem to have omitted it from the little world in your head and from the usual collection of half truths that seem to be your M.O..


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:41:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (2.00 / 2)

You expect people to copy paste the entire content from the link?

You make a decision and you post a link to show that your decision is based on certain facts. Now if that link also helps someone else make a different decision, what is wrong in that?

Atleast she was honest to post all data via that link.


by Sandeep on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:40:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (none / 0)

I am not accusing anyone of hiding info, just neglecting it in their reasoning.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:07:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (none / 0)

Are you planning to refute the actual news report sources quoted there with appropriate news reports or other sources that repudiate what is reported to have been said by Obama in those news source clips or are you attempting some silly stunts like capt kangaroo?


by pdxarch on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:18:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (2.00 / 3)

OK, so I went to the link to the exit poll which was in the Hillary Hub link you provided and this is what I found.

Direct link to exit poll http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21226004

More people think just Clinton attacked unfairly than thought just Obama attacked unfairly.

Also, more people think Obama is honest and trustworthy than think Clinton is honest and trustworthy.

* Did either of these candidates for president attack the other unfairly?
Only Hillary Clinton did - 24%
Only Barack Obama did -     6%
(Both did - 44%, neither did -24%)

* Which candidate do you think is honest and trustworthy?
Hillary Clinton is - 58%
Barack Obama is    - 67%


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:23:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (2.00 / 2)

Goodness, you can do math right? If this is in defense of Obama's trustworthiness, then it is pitiful. The 9% difference in trustworthiness is a credit now to Obama? WHat this ends up showing is that a full majority of the voters think they are both not trustworthy and roughly half the electorate thinks Obama attacked unfairly as well. None of this is good news for a guy who claims he is not the business as usual politician and he practices a new kind of politics, which a clear majority isnt buying. And for the record, I think they both are politicians and do what it takes to win. However in this cycle, Obama has succeeded with his Chutzpah of complaining about Hillary clinton's negative campaigning while his campaign was the one that engaged in it from fall 07 and consistently while Hillary didnt feel the need to do it when she was 20 points ahead.  I can get you plenty of actual news report references to show that Obama campaign engaged in Hillary's character bashing first and consistently since last fall. See my other comments on this. Too tiring to repeat this constantly in every diary where bots form Dkos swarm in and repeat the same lies about Hillary's negative campaigning and how Obama is a victim.


by pdxarch on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:25:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Nobody ever called Obama "Messiah" (1.80 / 5)

... except for those who, like you, wanted to denigrate him.

It is sad to see your candidate doing so poorly that  you can no longer find a way to post positive diaries about her, and must instead puke out, one after another, trashy straw-man hit jobs like this one and your unfounded faux-outrage attack on Olberman.

Playing the victim eventually wears out even the most willing and sympathetic onlooker.  Keep it up, an it will eventually cause even your avid supporters to wonder about you.


Ignorance is weakness. Get strong.
by tbetz on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:15:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nobody ever called Obama "Messiah" (2.00 / 8)

Umm... it's called setting the record straight.  

That's what people do when their candidate is trashed unfairly - accused of going on the attack by a guy who claims to have clean hands.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:17:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nobody ever called Obama "Messiah" (2.00 / 6)

Krugman has it right:

<blockquote> If the relatively mild rough and tumble of the Democratic fight has been enough to knock Mr. Obama off his pedestal, what hope did he ever have of staying on it through the general election?</blockquote>


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:24:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nobody ever called Obama "Messiah" (2.00 / 5)

Krugman is a very smart man.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:37:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nobody ever called Obama "Messiah" (2.00 / 4)

Krugman's premise is false.

Obama was never on a pedestal.  Clinton supporters claimed he was on one and now claim he's off. But no Obama supporters ever saw him as more than human.

When one's premise is false, the entire argument and its conclusions are also false.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:43:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nobody ever called Obama "Messiah" (2.00 / 2)


>Obama was never on a pedestal.  Clinton supporters claimed he was on one and now claim he's off. But no Obama supporters ever saw him as more than human.

you have got to be kidding... This whole thing was a big gamble that you could get away with it without people wising up ..

This is just my opinion, but I think you are going to lose..


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Comprehensively cover 100%, not only the healthiest 80%
by architek on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:54:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nobody ever called Obama "Messiah" (2.00 / 1)

You didnt go check out the link to press references to Obama Messiah or Messiah like references (you can do a google with Obama Messiah and the link you get refers to press reports), did you?

It has both reporters referring to the word messiahnic. In addition look at the quotes from the people who attended his rally. You will find words like "god-like energy", Obama-Bhakta (indian reference to a devotee. I am of Indian origin, so it is not something I read and accepted either), its like going to church and so on and so forth. remember these are actual press reports of events. You can go challenge them if you have something that says it didnt happen. But I think the report that quotes Jesse Jackson has it right. He is essentially running a theological campaign. THe author of the article says he sounded like a preacher. I used to wonder why people attending Megachurches and listening to tele-evangelists would send them money in boatloads for the evangelists then to pray for these individuals apparently? I now know the answer and it fits the fundraising operation that Obama has going as well. And not only that it isnt exactly the characteristic of the people who are clinging to religion out of economic hardship either. It is essentially self-described progressives who are mesmerized by this figure, despite the contradictions in politics he brings in. But hey, perhaps an inspirational preacher is what this country needs. What do I know?


by pdxarch on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:05:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nobody ever called Obama "Messiah" (2.00 / 1)

I will vote for Hillary if she were the nominee and think she is a very capable person, but man you are hard to take. Hard to read this website when every diary is from you. They are all really disingenuous and instead of building Hillary up you tear Barack down. It is people like you that will really make his victory extra sweet for me.


by pennypacker on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:29:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nobody ever called Obama "Messiah" (2.00 / 2)

Have you ever been to the daily Obama (aka dkos) or the Obamaington Post????   These two places trash Senator Clinton so nastily, so personally, on such gutter level I still have a hard time believing anyone there is "progressive or liberal" or ever has been.

Those places defended the likes of Matthews, Shuster and Randi Rhodes, and many agreed openly with their descriptions of Senator Clinton as a wh***.
The Clinton campaign used "inexperience" when talking about Obama and his worshippers went nuts.  He called her an ambitious calculator and his surrogates implied she was a lying racist and yet you are hysterical because some of us see his blinded followers as having a messianic view of him.

You cannot have it both ways.  Thank goodness there is a blog away from the daily Obama and the Obamington post where Clinton supporters are not personally trashed on a daily basis for supporting an "old hag" (yes, I saw those words used by Obama supporters).


by Jjc2008 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:56:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sure about that? (2.00 / 6)

Oprah called him "The One." Obama supporters call other Obama supporters part of a "cult."

Both MoJo an TNR refer to him with messianic terms and imagery.

Have you seen the artwork from his own supporters?


by Pacific John on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:30:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sure about that? (2.00 / 3)

You mean like this>

<img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2121/2279718287_1c865f6505.jpg?v=0">


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:40:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Mojo and TNR use the term to denigrate him. (1.66 / 3)

Obama supporters are joking about how others denigrate them.

"The One" is more a pop-culture reference than religious.

But, okay... if this isn't a parody, it's just sad.  I'll grant you that.  But then, all public figures have their fanatic followers.


Ignorance is weakness. Get strong.
by tbetz on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:43:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mojo and TNR use the term to denigrate him. (2.00 / 2)

Everything with Obama supporters is dismissed as "pop culture".......with the Obama supporters.
Don't get upset with "pimp" it's just pop culture.
Don't get upset calling someone a wh*** ...it's just pop culture.

Then how come your candidate gets cheered for saying "words matter."   Which is it with you folks?


by Jjc2008 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:16:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sure about that? (2.00 / 2)

And the wife reminds audiences that Barack is "Special" and implies he has magical powers.


by Tolstoy on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:50:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sure about that? (1.66 / 6)

Barak "will heal the holes in our souls." -- Michelle Obama

Creepy.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:46:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sure about that? (2.00 / 0)

Michelle Obama didn't actually say this.

What's with all the made up quotes from Clinton supporters lately?

We had the false Sharpton quote the other day. (He did not call Clinton supporters "uneducated, redneck white trash.")

We had Alegre's diary repeating Peter Daou's false Obama quotes.

Now this false quote from Michelle.

I don't get it.


by jdusek on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:28:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sure about that? (2.00 / 1)

Here  is what she said:

That we have to compromise and sacrifice for one another in order to get things done - that is why I am here, because Barack Obama is the only person in this race who understands that.

That before we can work on the problems, we have to fix our souls - our souls are broken.

So I am here right now because I am married to the only person in this race who has a chance at healing this nation.

You won't like this link, but it's her actual voice: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid= 3335264438614927798


by Montague on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:56:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sure about that? (2.00 / 0)

This shows that the quote WAS wrong.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:25:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sure about that? (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, I've already read the transcript. That's how I knew Michelle Obama didn't say what KnoxVow is alleging. Generally, when you put something in quotes, it means they said "these exact words," not some clumsy approximation of what they said. Michelle said that Obama will heal the nation, not fix the holes in our souls.


by jdusek on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:46:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sure about that? (none / 0)

Absolutely sure.  She's said it many times.  The last time was on her appearance with Colbert.  If you don't "get it" perhaps you're not paying attention.l


by Tolstoy on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:18:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sure about that? (none / 0)

Absolutely sure.  She's said it many times.  The last time was on her appearance with Colbert.  If you don't "get it" perhaps you're not paying attention.l


by Tolstoy on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:19:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sure about that? (none / 0)

You're "absolutely sure?"

I just re-watched her Colbert appearance. Not one mention of souls.

You can watch the video and see for yourself:

http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertrepo rt/videos.jhtml?videoId=165957

Take a look and then let me know if you still think I'm not paying attention.


by jdusek on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:40:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sure about that? (none / 0)

You must have me confused with another commenter.  I referenced "special".  She said "special".


by Tolstoy on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:17:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sure about that? (none / 0)

Ha, looks like we both got our wires crossed somewhere.

You replied to me, but my criticism was of KnowVox's quote, not yours.

Yes, she did say that he was "special."

No, she did not say he will "heal the holes in our souls."


by jdusek on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:41:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Jesus Christ Superstar (none / 0)

"I DO BELIEVE HE IS THE ONE!"

Tweety gets thrill up leg...

Girls at rallies faint...

It's all really sort of pathetic, don't you think?

Barack Obama is nothing but a rock star, a Paris Hilton Celebrity, girls screaming when he says it's hot so he takes his jacket off...

He tells women he'll give them a kiss if they'll vote for him...teases a woman during a group photo, that it's his cell phone buzzing in his pocket, so don't think he's getting fresh...

It's the Obama "Ewww factor" that makes some of us cringe...


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:19:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nobody ever called Obama "Messiah" (2.00 / 2)

Build him up to tear him down, turn his strengths to weaknesses, etc., etc.  Just your typical rovian politics.


by catalysis on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:08:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nobody ever called Obama "Messiah" (2.00 / 4)

Absolutely. This is a classic straw man argument.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:08:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not a Classic Straw Man Arguement (2.00 / 2)

More like a deliberately assholish strawman


by bernardpliers on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:15:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nobody ever called Obama "Messiah" (none / 0)

do you actually know what a strawman is or is just something you picked up reading bot diaries? The diary title says messiah. And folks here claim that is denigrating Obama since no one refers considers him a messiah? somebody puts up media references including from his own supporters and I can get you  more closet obama supporters referring to him as messiahnic, although not calling him directly a messiah. IF this is what you refer to as strawman, you havent a clue on what a strawman is.


by pdxarch on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:35:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You better hope he is more than mortal (2.00 / 2)

I think the bitterness that flows through alegre's writing is the realization that in a matter of weeks the Clinton's and their staff of devoted followers will fall into the irrelevant well of past election losers when they were so close to such great Presidential power. I will forgive you and Obama will too because he is not a disguised wolf as you now claim.


by ImpeachBushCheney on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:36:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You better hope he is more than mortal (2.00 / 2)

forgive? what kind of religious nut wacko are you? neither you nor Obama are some sort of God to "forgive" or not?

nutso!


by CalDem on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:04:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You better hope he is more than mortal (2.00 / 1)

Yeah!  What sort of nutty wacko religion preaches forgiveness????

Oh... all of them?



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:09:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You better hope he is more than mortal (2.00 / 1)

So you can only forgive someone if you are a religious figure? You've never forgiven anyone, ever?


by zep93 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:17:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He is our last best hope for 2008. (2.00 / 1)

McCain and Hillary have sold their sold to corporate America.  Get on board or get out of the way.  Hillary is not longer a Democrat.  Sorry to be blunt.  It is what it is.


by dystopianfuturetoday on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:19:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He is our last best hope for 2008. (2.00 / 1)

sure, because a bot genius said so. Of course, what is the world thinking? You make the case for why your savior and his supporters as vacuous as they seem. On the other hand, if you can actually substantiate any of what you said with some logic/reasoning/facts/figures that would be a great change


by pdxarch on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:51:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Again I will not say anything except (2.00 / 4)

I read the whole diary.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:07:20 PM EST

If you're a student, (2.00 / 4)

reading undoubtedly is an asset for you.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:08:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again I will not say anything except (2.00 / 5)

Ok - thanks ;)


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:09:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Heh. (2.00 / 6)

Far more compelling as a storyline is how Hillary went from inevitable to impossible, dontcha think?


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:10:40 PM EST

Re: Heh. (2.00 / 9)

that's an interesting and entirely unrelated premise. why don't you go do a diary about it someplace else.


by campskunk on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:12:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's entirely related. (1.75 / 8)

Alegre seems to be reaching to create a downward trajectory. The most noticeable such trajectory in this season was the one that afflicted her campaign once voters cast their first ballots.

Entirely germane, dear campskunk :-)


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:16:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heh. (2.00 / 1)

Because only rah rah Clinton diaries at MyDD, right?


by zep93 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:19:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (2.00 / 9)

i think obama's loyalty to waging a positive campaign based on hope is about as strong as his other loyalties. say, his loyalty to alice palmer. the weird thing, though, is how his campaign can continue the negative stuff while simultaneously insisting they don't do it. that's a fairly primitive defense mechanism.  the media's waking up, and i don't think this magic act can hold together much longer.


by campskunk on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:11:01 PM EST

Dude! He's a fighter! (2.00 / 6)

Why only last September, he dug in his heels over blog civility!

Granted, it's the only time I've seen him dig in over anything, but it's a start!

by Pacific John on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:18:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (2.00 / 10)

His shine's got tarnish on it after the last 2 months.  Those mailers are full of lies and he's been called on them repeatedly.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:19:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (2.00 / 7)

Voters are smart. They'll wind up in the trash faster than Obama can say "No she can't!" LOL


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:29:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Mailers... (2.00 / 5)

Does it bother you that Clinton used dishonest mailers in NH?



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:55:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mailers... (1.80 / 5)

In fact, Clinton supporters stopped women going to vote in NH and told them lies about Obama's position on choice. No wonder she is currently trailing in NH, a swing state that if Gore had won he would have become president.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:31:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mailers... (2.00 / 3)

Yeah, I posted about it here in a comment since I don't have the ability to post diaries.  It was -by far- the most dishonest mailer of the campaign. And she had the nerve to scold him a few weeks later for attacking a Dem on an issue important to Dems.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:54:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you SURE they didn't work for YOU? (2.00 / 1)

It sounds like something O'drama would do...


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Comprehensively cover 100%, not only the healthiest 80%
by architek on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:58:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (2.00 / 10)

I doubt the revelation that he's just a regular politician will do the job for him.

When it becomes clear he's John Kerry with more personality and more baggage, he's sunk. The only question is, when?

by Pacific John on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:13:42 PM EST

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (2.00 / 5)

Yeah, and we all saw what happened with Kerry.

I'm surprised folks haven't seen the similarities by now.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:20:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

John Kerry with more personality and more baggage (2.00 / 3)

Sounds like a diary to me.


by Pacific John on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:00:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed (2.00 / 1)

and BTW, nice title.  

One other comparision I found rather frightening was to McGovern's campaign--front paged here--even the campaign logos are quite similar. But the comparison also talked about the personality-based, emotional, nature of the campaign and its followers.  

I am very glad this nomination process will continue to June...and I thank and admire HRC for staying and fighting.  She said after her Ohio victory, and I will never forget it, "for those of you who have been beaten down, told to quit...this one's for you".


by 4justice on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:20:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (1.71 / 7)

I've noticed a new tactic. First he would spin any possible remark by anyone remotely connected to her or any unfounded rumor into a personal insult and then act outraged, that manufactured outrage that so excites his younger male supporters. he knows how to play the unfairly targeted victim of the harpy girl we all love to hate. Now he's doing SWASW - so what, anyway she's worse. If he's caught he's dismissive of the charges against him but somehow finds whatever he can to say she's worse. he even brought up her cookie baking?  Like, weird? I wish he'd bring up travelgate though, she got blamed for wanting accountability, that would now be seen differently, post Brownie.  She makes so few mistakes he has to recycle smears from eons ago, and of course he lies, he's great at lying, says he doesn't bring up her bosnia exaggeration when he brings it up all the time.  he's amazing. but he's no longer seen as above politics, at least not in states where his campaign is even more clearly all about her. the whole reason for him is to beat her? That's a reason to want to be president. I liked him better when he admitted he wasn't ready, not experienced enough, but once he decided to run he ran down her experience.  As his pastor says, he's a politician.  


Hillary - alternative energy
by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:14:00 PM EST

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (2.00 / 4)

Intresting contrast.  

You call his comments about her Bosnia comments "Lies" and then go on to call her actual comments on Bosnia exaggerations.  

Can you not see what you just did?


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:20:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (2.00 / 1)

The lie was when he said he's never brought it up. He had, and he continues to bring it up.  That's factually a lie.  


Hillary - alternative energy
by anna shane on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:22:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From Messiah to Mere Mortal (2.00 / 8)

He's got the whole manufactured outrage thing down pat - especially when it comes to Bill.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:21:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

His assault on Bill Clinton (2.00 / 3)

is unforgiveable, in my view. That fact alone disqualifies him.  


by 4justice on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:26:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: His assault on Bill Clinton (2.00 / 5)

You have to wonder what part of peace and prosperity he objects to.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:34:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]