Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" Debates Not So "Lincoln-Douglas"-Like

Just in via email from the Clinton campaign is an intriguing proposal for "Lincoln-Douglas Style Debates". At least the proposal was intriguing -- until I read the details of it.

During the run up to the 1858 elections, Abraham Lincoln and Stephen A. Douglas held a series of debates across the state of Illinois to help influence the legislative races in the state in the hopes of their party gaining control over the legislature, thus ensuring they would be elected to the United States Senate (because until the early 20th century Senators were chosen by state legislatures rather than directly by the voters). These debates played out as follows: One candidate spoke for an hour, the other candidate spoke for an hour and a half, and the first candidate was allowed a half-hour long rejoinder. In total, there were seven such debates across Illinois allowing both candidates an opportunity to fulfill each role. Transcripts of each candidate's long and thorough orations were made widely available, and in full, in newspapers (indeed not just in Illinois but around the country as well). And importantly, each candidate was allowed to lay out his case -- and his response to his opponent's case -- in a clear and unrestrained way.

With this in mind, I read the email sent out to reporters today by Clinton campaign manager Maggie Williams with interest -- a series of debates along the lines of the Lincoln-Douglas debates. Yes, there have already been more than 20 debates, and many voters simply feel debated out. But a very different type of debate could be refreshing, one in which the candidates were not forced to impart only 30-second, or 90-second, or even few-minute long sets of talking points; one in which the candidates were allowed to make their case to the voters point-by-point and respond to their fellow candidate point-by-point.

Was this what the Clinton campaign was proposing, though? No.

One candidate would speak for two minutes, then the other, alternating back and forth all the way through the debate.

True, the debate would be more like the Lincoln-Douglas debates in that they would not feature a debate moderator or some modern debate techniques (like the use of videotaped responses). What's more, it would be up to the candidates to pick the topics rather than the establishment media figure moderating the debate.

However, these  "Lincoln-Douglas Style Debates", as the Clinton campaign calls them, would not diverge so much from the modern trend of sound-bite driven campaigning or hew closely to the true nature of the Lincoln-Douglas debates. No, instead of allowing each candidate to speak in a measured, thoughtful and clear manner, laying out his or her case and responding to the other candidate's case, the  debates proposed by the Clinton campaign would just be more in a series of made-for-television, "Crossfire"-like quasi-debates that show less about the quality of a candidate's thoughts and beliefs than they do about the candidate's ability to come up with a biting sound-bite or a funny joke.

Yes, it is important for the President to be able to think on his or her toes (though do note that the best debate lines -- "You're no Jack Kennedy", "Where's the Beef?", "I won't take advantage of my opponent's age" -- were concocted long before the debate ever took place). But isn't the presidency more than a rap session governed by which side is better able to cut the other side? Or at least shouldn't it be?

If the Clinton campaign would be willing to hold serious extended debates that truly reflect the nature of the Lincoln-Douglas debates -- they need not be three hours long; if one candidate spoke for 15 minutes, the other spoke for 45 minutes, then the first spoke again for a half hour that would approximate those historic debates while coming in closer in time to the length of today's debates -- that would be one thing (and other breakdowns would work as well). But as long as the Clinton campaign is merely calling for more opportunities for gotcha-style politics in 90-second or 2-minute bursts, I see little reason for the Obama campaign to say yes (and indeed the Obama campaign is saying no to another debate in the next 10 days before North Carolina and Indiana vote).



Display:


Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" Debates (none / 0)

Well, that's an excellent viewpoint on that particular issue. Kudos to you, sir.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:49:20 PM EST

If they debate Barack better eat breakfast (2.00 / 5)

because Hillary will eat his lunch.

(She'll drink his milkshake too!)


by myiq2xu on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:49:57 PM EST

hillary is broke and desperate (2.00 / 1)


by AtTheZoo2136 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:59:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hillary is broke and desperate (none / 0)

And Obama is TERRIFIED to debate her


by doyenne49 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:33:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The election is over. Hillary lost. (none / 0)

Obama should be debating McCain.


by dystopianfuturetoday on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:03:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The election is over. Hillary lost. (none / 0)

He will figure out a way to avoid debating McCain too.


by doyenne49 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:25:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

he's so terrified... (none / 0)

...he's already debated her a dozen times.

how do you keep all the contridiction in your head?


by DawnG on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:47:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Just watched "There will be Blood" (none / 0)

on DVD today...you might be right...maybe Clinton wants to pummel Obama's electability with a bowling pin


by optimusprime on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:07:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" (2.00 / 3)

You are missing the point .

Clinton is ready to debate in any format that anyone proposes.

This is not about gotcha debates whatever that means.

Its about getting on stage and talking about the issues.

I don't think Obama would accept any form of debates , because he doesn't seem to have a firm grasp on policy.

Policy is what Clinton is great attack.

There is no use trying to make excuses for your prefferred candidate , he simply doesn't seem to want to debate whatever form it takes.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:51:36 PM EST

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" (none / 0)

Here is a link to some of those policies that you don't think Barack Obama has.

http://origin.barackobama.com/issues/


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:56:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" (2.00 / 4)

"Check my website" is not a debate answer.

Does Obama really know what those policy proposals say?  He doesn't seem to.


by myiq2xu on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:24:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I've been through every policy paper on his site (none / 0)

with a fine toothed comb and this was my impression.
He makes a lot of nise about issues that don't involve money. When money is involved, he very skillfully comes down on the side of the big corporations, but he does it in a way that most people DON'T pick up on.

I used to work with a number of the issues that get discussed in those position papers and I think I can explain them in detail in a diary.

Some of them are extremely obscure.

Healthcare is a case in point. Obama clearly has advisors that have given him advice on things that involved what many people THINK are minutiae of healthcare but they WILL impact people dramatically.

And not always in a good way. Obama's thrust is extremely pro-corporate. For example, few people realize that the real reason that there is this huge push towards medical IT - IN THE US - is NOT so that people can receive better care. Not at all.

Its so insurance companies can weed out people who have medical conditions - exclude them from coverage - and also businesses can avoid hiring them. CREATING A NEW KIND OF UNDERCLASS...

There are two kinds of developed countries in the world, those without universal healthcare and those with.

In the countries without (the US being the most prominent representative) these databases are a million dollar business.

Many healthcare experts believe that extensive use of medical IT and the (our) private insurance model are fundamentally incompatible because the potential for abuse is SO great.

What we don't know can hurt us.


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:43:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" (none / 0)

They are 2 sides of a coin. Obama has a much more thorough understanding of foreign policy than Clinton (see: Iran). Clinton has a better grasp of Domestic Policy (see: Health Care). Neither is perfect on either front.

Clinton wipes him on the health care portion of debates, but he decimates her when it turns to the Middle East and foreign policy.


John McCain wants to make abortion illegal
by Lost Thought on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:00:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" (none / 0)

Clinton is proposing a non-proliferation policy vis a vis Iran and the mideast. Do find that to be an immature or unsophisticated way to  begin tackling the problems over there? I'd be very interested in hearing what kind of beefs you have with her umbrella.


by Little Otter on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:24:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" (none / 0)

A massive increase in our security responsibilities in that unstable region is not a good idea at all.  We need to be doing our best to disengage from that region, not threatening to massively increase our military activity or to massively retaliate against Iran.

Yes, a proposal for an umbrella of defense for the region in opposition to Iran is immature.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:06:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" (none / 0)

How do you suggest preventing the region from going nuclear? Or is preventing nuclear proliferation now immature?


by Little Otter on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:17:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" (none / 0)

Sanctions, diplomacy, containment.  The things that were working against Iraq before the Bush Administration screwed everything up.

Threatening a military solution before those avenues are exhausted is tremendously immature, or should I say "Bushlike."  A carrot and stick approach would serve our interests much better.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:23:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" (none / 0)

The umbrella is a diplomatic solution. It's a series of treaties that make nuclear proliferation unnecessary. Iran is safer if Israel's nuclear capabilities are reigned in and if no one else in the area acquires nuclear weapons.

Hillary has been on about the need for diplomacy with Iran ever since she got to the Senate. She has talked about it far more extensively than Obama has.

Now, Obama has also promised a massive response if Israel is attacked, so they are the same there. The only person who has engaged in bellicose rhetoric during the campaign and as part of an effort to toughen is image is Obama with his disasterous speech to the Foreign Affairs Council.


by Little Otter on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:10:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, just impossible (none / 0)

   Iran will have a thermonuclear weapon within 3 years, no matter what we or our Israeli allies do. They understand very clearly that that is their only path to national survival. They've seen what happens to those who don't have them. Clinton's yammering about a regional umbrella fails to address any of the political/military realities in the region. The only question is: Are we going to keep trading lives for Oil, or are we going to make the (sure to be painful) transition to something else?


by Kordo on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:47:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" (none / 0)

2 minute rounds just lead to free soundbites.

Which, of course, Clinton needs with her massive debt.

Obama doesn't need to do her the favor of getting her free air time.  She can do that on her own.


by Capt America on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:07:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" (none / 0)

Nice try...Obama does not want to debate her because he , you know, has already locked up the nomination (for those of us dealing with reality).However it would be quite interesting to see a debate between Hillary and the rest of the loosing Democratic candidates... It would make as much sence anyway..Perhaps jerome and company  could hire Lanny Davis to come on over to MYDD and do some of his pathetic whining... He would feel right at home.


by tommy on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:08:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" (none / 0)

Clinton is willing to take any free TV time that anyone will offer.  You act like she's really wailed on him in debates.  This hasn't happened.  How many debates have we had now?


John McCain isn't evil. He's just wrong about a lot of things. Vote Obama!
by proseandpromise on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:37:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

(Comment Deleted) (none / 0)

This comment has been deleted by an administrator.


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:53:36 PM EST

why are people getting hung up on the (2.00 / 3)

comparison, it said 'LIKE" for a reason, foolishness. A debate with no moderators, just forget the Douglas-Lincoln part, sheesh!


DEMOCRATIC 08!
by rigsoHC on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:53:40 PM EST

Respectfully disagree. (2.00 / 3)

One can quibble about the format - two minutes each is kinda lame - but aren't we always complaining, all of us, about the media filter and the stupid questions our folks get asked. If we controlled the debate format - we meaning Democrats - couldn't that be an enormous step towards actually talking about our agenda?

I'd love to see a debate like this. The odds of this kind of format bringing out a substantial discussion are pretty good, and it might even emanate to making the main Presidential debates better.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:55:59 PM EST

I agree (2.00 / 1)

And a debate like this would break desperately needed new ground for the media sponsored debates in the future.


by Coldblue on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:08:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Respectfully disagree. (2.00 / 1)

Do you really think the candidates would not trot out the trivial stuff themselves? Hell, most of the time the media is asking candidate A trivial questions because candidate B's team pushed them earlier at the day's conference call. I am almost certain Clinton would weave in cheap shots about Wright, or Obama about Bosnia, though perhaps they might be subtle about it.

This might have been better earlier in the process, before both candidates reverted to no holds barred sniping (no pun intended)


John McCain wants to make abortion illegal
by Lost Thought on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:18:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm sure they would. (none / 0)

But all it would take is a simple "listen, I thought we were here to have some serious debate about X" to discourage that. If Hillary wants to try that, I'd suggest it would make her look foolish.

We have some really smart people running this time. To see them going on one on one without the media filter sounds really exciting to me.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:55:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sure they would. (none / 0)

Since when does Hillary care about looking foolish? She would wear a "kick me" sign on her back for an entire year if she thought it would help her get elected.


by tommy on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:12:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not (none / 0)

going to convince Obama supporters when you harp on lame talking points like pillows. You need to convince us, you know :-)


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We Clintonistas knew (none / 0)

that the Obamaphiles would think the format unfitting.  I wonder what made us think that.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:56:47 PM EST

Re: We Clintonistas knew (none / 0)

I think the format, as Singer points out, is still too well set up for the "Gotcha" style of politics that has become so prevalent. What I would propose is a 10-20-10 format on 2-3 specific issues (say Healthcare, Foriegn Policy, and Flagpins)

(Just kidding about the flagpins.)


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:05:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

focused debates. (none / 0)

I agree, I'd like to see entire debates focused on particular subjects/areas.  Energy and the environment.  Healthcare.  The economy.  Middle east policy.  etc.


by lilnev on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:05:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary doesn't tell Barack Obama what to do (none / 0)


by AtTheZoo2136 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:00:03 PM EST

Read the Oregon blogs (none / 0)

everyone knows what Hillary is trying to pull, and it is not going over well at all.

The head of her steering committee in Oregon, can't make a post on a blog without getting reamed up one side and down the other.  It's very ugly for her there.


by AtTheZoo2136 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:02:20 PM EST

Re: Read the Oregon blogs (none / 0)

A link of some sort would be helpful.  There are lots of Blogs related to Oregon.


I'm only a click away
by juliewolf on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:04:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Read the Oregon blogs (none / 0)

http://www.blueoregon.com/2008/04/the-cl inton-gam.html


by AtTheZoo2136 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:08:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Read the Oregon blogs (none / 0)

Yup, those Obama supporters have indeed made the internet an ugly place.


by Dave B on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:10:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's a -really- big internet (none / 0)

there can't be so many Obama supporters that you can't find a place where you're safe from them.  Or maybe you should go to that other internet where everyone's always nice to one another about everything.


I'm only a click away
by juliewolf on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:13:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Non-Issue (none / 0)

This may come a shock to most people, but Clinton probably doesn't really want to do this either, since without moderators the candidates would be forced to foot the bill, and, well, she's broke.

Clinton only proposed this because she knows Obama will turn it down, and then she can recycle her ads from Wisconsin attacking him for not debating. Of course, we all know how well that worked for her last time.

Voters don't give a damn about process attacks. They never vote for or against someone because a candidate refused a debate. Just as they don't vote for the person who raised the most money, or they don't vote for the person who turns in the most ballot petition signatures. The Clinton campaign is wasting their breath trying to push this argument.


John McCain wants to make abortion illegal
by Lost Thought on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:06:22 PM EST

Gordon Smith is despised by Dems in Oregon (none / 0)

Gordon Smith and John McCain are BFFs.

Hillary has been so lovey-dovey with McCain - Oregon Dems don't like it one bit.  


by AtTheZoo2136 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:07:12 PM EST

Stop pretending you speak for... (2.00 / 0)

... Oregon Dems.

I am an Oregon Dem who supports Hillary Clinton and I disagree with your comment -

Hillary has been so lovey-dovey with McCain - Oregon Dems don't like it one bit.

You speak for yourself, not Oregon Democrats.


by sinjin777 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:19:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I can only report what I see on the blogs (1.00 / 1)

no one supports Hillary, except for about 3 trolls


by AtTheZoo2136 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:25:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

News Flash!!! (2.00 / 0)

The blogs are not representative of Democratic voters in Oregon or in any other state.


by sinjin777 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:19:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" Debates (2.00 / 4)

Jesus, is there any argument you won't trot out to defend your guy Obama?

Look, the idea that somehow the length of the response, 2 minutes, reduces any debate to "gotcha" politics is just a fabrication of your own mind.

As if one couldn't find all the opportunity might ever want in an hour or half hour long speech to do all the negative campaigning one might ever want to do. Indeed, one could say that such an extended uninterrupted debate period was more suited to such attacks, because one could engage in them at length without any easy point on point rebuttal, preventing false attacks from getting out of hand. The notion that there's something inherently wrong with a format resembling the Socratic method is something entirely of your own manufacture.

So why don't you just admit the obvious: it was preordained that you would find a "problem" with the debate format proposed by Hillary, because you knew Obama wouldn't want to debate, and you had to come up with a rationalization to make that seem justifiable.

But the rest of us see the reality: the man is a moral and political coward, and is largely incapable of defending himself when confronted by any kind of question that isn't a softball. And his refusal to debate is a transparent attempt to get out of any responsibility to justify his run for the Presidency.


by frankly0 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:07:29 PM EST

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" Debates (none / 0)

So its like how during her NY races she was to scared to debate in the primaries ofr the general becasue she didn't have the skills to avoid getting destroyed by her opponenets? Or is it diffeerent now that Hillary isn't the one refusing debates?


by Socraticsilence on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:57:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I love the idea, Jerome (2.00 / 0)

I've no interest at all in another 2-minute dueling soundbytes debate.  I love the idea of a 30-45-15 debate (you suggested 15-45-30, but I think mine provides for better balance, but that's minor quibbling).  Just the idea of a debate where the two candidates really do present their ideas in depth without being interrupted by gotchya games... that's a great idea.


I'm only a click away
by juliewolf on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:07:31 PM EST

Re: I love the idea, Jerome (none / 0)

er... Jonathan, not Jerome.

Sorry.  Long day and a bike ride just kicked my ass.


I'm only a click away
by juliewolf on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:11:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I love the idea, Jerome (none / 0)

The problem with doing a true Lincoln Douglas style debate these days is all you get is dueling stump speeches. Also, at this point, most people could write the entire script of the debate in their sleep (Mandates! No Mandates! Iraq vote! Green! Greener! Greenest! Greenester!...)


John McCain wants to make abortion illegal
by Lost Thought on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I love the idea, Jerome (none / 0)

That I'd be in favor of as well (specifically the 30/45/15 version).

The minute-by-minute crossfire style debate isn't going to inform anyone and it's just going to serve to create more intra-party tension.  If we're going to do this, let's have discussions, not arguments.


by Capt America on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:18:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You have got to be kidding? (2.00 / 1)

This is a bad proposal because it isn't exactly like a traditional Lincoln Douglas? I think Clinton would actually prefer the traditional format- she would run circles around Obama- who is very much a soundbite candidate.
by linc on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:07:55 PM EST

Bawk Bawk Bawk! (none / 0)

bawk! bawk! bawk! bawk! bawk!


by cc on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:10:23 PM EST

desperate! broke! (none / 0)


by AtTheZoo2136 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:26:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: scared to debate! terrified! (none / 0)

Protect me, Michelle, protect me!


by doyenne49 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:36:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So... (none / 0)

So this is the level of discourse we're reduced to.  Fantastic. :/


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:14:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Voting is by mail in Oregon, primary is May 20 (none / 0)

ballots are going out in about a week and people can turn them in immediately thereafter.

Whatever they do, it has to be fast because people will have already voted.

There's really no time.


by AtTheZoo2136 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:13:02 PM EST

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" Debates (2.00 / 3)

I believe the proposal said the format could be worked out to both of the campaigns satisfaction. This is a lame excuse presented here.


by tabbycat in tenn on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:21:02 PM EST

Missing the forest for the trees? (2.00 / 5)

Hillary also made it clear at the stump that her campaign is open to negotiating the specifics of the format.  Why didn't you mention that?

Clearly you can recognize some legitimate design to keep time in a fair way.  Let's make it 15 minutes if 2 is too short.  What's so cool about it is the idea of the candidates themselves annunciating the issues (which is after all what they will need to do as President).


by bobbank on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:23:25 PM EST

I feel cheated (none / 0)

I originally saw "Lincoln-Douglas" debates, did not read the details, and thought what a great idea.  My thoughts were the candidates could lay their cases before us in detail at their own pace.  Wow.  Perfect.

Two minute back and forths, though?  That might just be worse than what we've had up to now.  Petty sniping, cutoff ideas, stupid sound bites.  This makes me very angry.  I thought for once the Clinton campaign was thinking beyond their own needs to just setting things out before the public in a clear way.  I guess I was mistaken.

Why would the Obama campaign open itself up to more nasty trivia games.  

I am really angry at this and the way it has been portrayed as L-D debates.  I feel tricked and cheated.


by mady on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:26:14 PM EST

If this makes you "very angry" (none / 0)

you should really take a break from the campaign for a day or so. She didn't attack him or call him names, she proposed a debate format, that's all.

Obama's complaint after the PA debate (which had some merit IMHO) was that the media talking heads asked a bunch of trivial gotcha questions. Clinton's proposal eliminates the problem by eliminating the talking heads, which is a pretty simple and elegant solution. If Obama doesn't like her time limits, all he has to do is say "OK, but two minutes is too short, lets make it five", or fifteen or whatever. There is nothing whatsoever in the proposal that should make one feel tricked and cheated.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:15:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Everyone knows (or should) that ... (1.33 / 3)

Hillary just wants a platform to hurl mud at Obama, because tearing him down is the only desperate hope to keep the Clinton Cabal in control of the Democratic Party. We've had enough gotcha debates and trash talk politics.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:30:04 PM EST

Faux offer (none / 0)

I think this entire debate offer was geared to frame the debate as historic and make the content impossible for Obama to accept, thus setting her up as the wronged candidate and him as intransigent and fearful.  It really stinks.


by mady on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:38:35 PM EST

Re: Faux offer (2.00 / 1)

If that were really the case, then why doesn't Obama call her bluff and accept?


Bitch is the New Black
by Iphie on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:48:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Faux offer (none / 0)

Because it is a fraudulent and idiotic premise, that this is actually a debate that resembles, in any way, the original L-D debates.  Why go on the air for another series of mind-numbing 2-minute sound bites.  They don't need it (well I guess she thinks she does) and we the public certainly do not.  A colossal uninformative waste of time.


by mady on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:54:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Faux offer (none / 0)

Wow, that's a really thoughtful and articulate response. It avoids addressing the fact that Clinton's offer included negotiating the rules of the debate -- the 2 minute idea was just the initial offer. I'm not sure who it is that you think doesn't need more debates, but the voters sure do seem responsive to them. But I bet those who have yet to vote appreciate your decisive appraisal of their "needs" just about as much as they appreciate the Obama campaign's efforts to decide this race without counting their votes at all.

And if it's such a waste of time, I suggest you use the time to try to shore up support for your candidate with your clearly superior persuasive powers.


Bitch is the New Black
by Iphie on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:50:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Faux offer (none / 0)

You intentionally misread me.  We do not need more of these drekky soundbite-fests.  If you look at my response on another post, I was truly excited about the idea of a classic L-D debate and the fact that maybe, just maybe, we could learn something more than we already know about the substance of the two candidates.  The more I read, the more I came to believe this was a ploy, another damn "gotcha" on the part of her campaign.  

I doubt if any Democrat will be able to win soon, too much damage has been done.


by mady on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:09:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" Debates (none / 0)

hey jonathan, you didn't mention that axelrod said no debates period, regardless of format.  face it:  obama is a coward.  it's a joke that he can't even face hillary and he wants to be president of the u.s.  he wouldn't even be in the race today if it weren't for apologists like you--behind whom he can hide and pretend to be interested in the voters.  what a joke for a presidential candidate.


by nance on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:41:25 PM EST

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" Debates (none / 0)

If Clinton were ahead, she wouldn't be pushing debates.  She'd be calling for Obama to drop out.

As it stands, Clinton is behind on every metric (unless you do those popular vote-oriented mental gymnastics we've seen lately) and doesn't have the funds she needs to continue competing.  More debates = more publicity, and that's something Clinton needs but can sorely afford to pay for.


by Capt America on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:52:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" Debates (none / 0)

funds don't buy elections.  didn't pennsylvania teach you folks that?


by nance on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:57:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" Debates (none / 0)

Take a look at the scoreboard, genius.


by Brannon on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:08:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" Debates (none / 0)

Funds dropped that particular race from a 19%, 20+ delegate split to a 9%, dozen delegate split.

The money may not have won the race, but the definitely contained any hopes of a runaway Clinton victory.


by Capt America on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:25:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" Debates (2.00 / 3)

Your post conveniently leaves out the part about "negotiating" the specifics. If Obama doesn't like the 2 minute idea, let him suggest something else. He keeps comparing himself to Lincoln when the issue of experience comes up, but Lincoln became known to the American people through the Lincoln/Douglas debates. People were so impressed by his thoughtful and persuasive debate performance that it catapulted him to national prominence. If Obama wants to compare himself to Lincoln, let him engage in more debates, just like Lincoln.

Oh, and for the argument that there have already been 21 debates? Yeah, but there have only been 4 one-on-one debates. The true soundbite debates were the ones with so many candidates, that most of them got very little actual speaking time. A more honest response from Obama and his supporters would be that there have been 4 debates between the two of them, if they think that's too many, then argue that point, not the specious 21 debates complaint.


Bitch is the New Black
by Iphie on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:46:38 PM EST

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" Debates (none / 0)

Hey, what a surprise, more 'honest' math from a Clinton supporter.


by Brannon on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:10:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" Debates (none / 0)

Tell me then if my math is so bad, how many debates have there been in total, and how many have been one-on-one Clinton/Obama debates?


Bitch is the New Black
by Iphie on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:40:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" Debates (none / 0)

I think Obama should take Clinton up on it! As long as they set time-limits for their responses (both have a habit of blabbering on). Maybe it would be refreshing to have them 'debate' without Tim Russert and George Stephanopoulous controling the format - I think future presidents are smart enough to think of their own questions and responses if they really know the country's issues. Maybe PBS can run the media portion of it since they seem to be more trustworthy than the networks.


by sunnyaz08 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:13:48 PM EST

Re: Debates (none / 0)

I think it would be great if Mr. Obama would be willing to dig into his top-heavy coffers and fund a 'real debate'.  No media 'jabbing and stabbing'.  Just issues!  It is a great idea and one that is long overdue.

But, sadly, I doubt you will ever see it because all the debates have been sponsered by the media outlets and they like to 'sensationalize' everything.  They don't want facts anymore.  They have turned into a 'WWF-style caricature' of journalism!

Take Care,  Sharon


Take Care, Sharon
by lanesharon on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:16:32 PM EST

Re: and students are deceived (none / 0)

You are spreading lies and you know it...

"Same with the Bush-Cheney Energy bill that Obama supported which is a boon for the oil companies!"

1 of 2 things is going here.  Either you hate him because he's beating Clinton and you'll believe anything that she tells you that re-enforces your negative opinion of him.  OR you're just stupid.  My guess is the former.


John McCain believes "Women shouldn't have a choice."
by jturn17 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:22:16 PM EST

Clinton voted for it too. (none / 0)

Not that that excuses Obama, but you can't claim Clinton is better on that issue if she voted the same way.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:35:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton voted for it too. (none / 0)

Clinton voted AGAINST the Cheney energy bill.


by americanincanada on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:20:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You're right. (none / 0)

I'm wrong on this one, and I'm honest enough to admit it.  My search for energy bills turned up an '03 and '07 version and I missed the '05 version which Clinton did indeed vote against.

My apologies.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:13:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton voted for it too. (none / 0)

actually, Clinton didn't vote for the Dick Cheney Energy Bill


by colebiancardi on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:36:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fess up... (none / 0)

Obama supporters...admit it, Obama sucks at this type of format.


by soyousay on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:26:45 PM EST

Re: Fess up... (none / 0)

He's definitely not as strong as Clinton is at the 2 minute sound bite style debates.  She was the captain of the debate team, after all.

In a longer format (15 minutes or whatever) he'd be just fine.


by Capt America on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:45:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

For a guy with supposedly great... (none / 0)

oratorical skills, Obama seems a little nervous about displaying them.

Maybe he'd debate if they let him have a teleprompter.


by Ed J on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:26:57 PM EST

Re: No more debates! (none / 0)

Thats right. College students dont count.


by tommy on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:27:24 PM EST

Re: No more debates! (none / 0)

Excuses, excuses, excuses.


by tommy on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:45:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He will not accept. (none / 0)

I doubt Obama will want to have a complete melt down again and probably edited the Fox interview.


by gotalife on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:39:23 PM EST

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" (none / 0)

The point of debates is not to let someone ham it up as much as possible without a time check, but to make salient points and counterpoints within reason. Obama has shown himself during debates to suck up time with long, vacuous answers. There should be a check on that, if it's possible for him to answer a direct criticism and explain his point of view within a time limit and without a crowd cheering him on.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:59:36 PM EST

I don't blame Obama for holding off on more (none / 0)

debates.  There is no reason for him to debate Clinton at this point.  He'll have plenty more debates against McCain in the fall.


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:01:37 PM EST

Re: I don't blame Obama (2.00 / 1)

Yeah. At this point she has as much of a much chance at the nomination as Gravel and Kucinich did back when they were excluded from debates. Chickens coming home to roost indeed.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:06:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

dishonest spin (none / 0)

If Obama had voted the other way on that amendment, you would be saying that he supported capping credit card rates at an extremely high percentage.  The fact is, he voted against the whole bill so you are being dishonest.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:10:37 PM EST

Re: Obama voted (none / 0)

Yeah, it was discussed in the debates and spinned just the way you are spinning it.

As I stated previously, Obama voted for the "interest rate" amendment...

This is untrue.  He voted against an amendment capping interest rates because he thought that the proposed cap was far too high.  There was no "interest rate amendment" that he voted for.  So he voted no on an amendment to the bill and then voted no on the entire bill.

Hillary meanwhile, did not even vote on the final passage of the bill making it the height of chutzpah for her to criticize him on it.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:31:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So Tired of Debates (none / 0)

I propose we have a Republican moderate all Democratic debates from here on out for entertainment purposes.


This administration is not sinking. This administration is soaring! If anything, they are rearranging the deck chairs on the Hindenburg!
by venavena on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:26:22 PM EST

The Clinton camp played the 'debate challenge' (none / 0)

... game in Wisconsin, too, as most will recall. They even went so far as to run television ads challenging Obama to a Wisconsin debate.

The results speak for themselves.

I expect the current "strategy" to be just as successful.


by Bob Johnson on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:41:12 PM EST

Re: Clintons' "Lincoln-Douglas" (none / 0)

This is somewhat interesting.


by RussTC3 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:11:59 PM EST

15 minutes per candidate, answering the same quest (none / 0)

What i would like to see is 15 minutes per candidate, answering the same questions. They would be able to supply the answers in videotaped format and the questions, and their answers, could be put on the web.

Then the readers could ask another series of questions. The questions that were picked would each have to be answered by both candidates. (this would prevent either candidate from being able to say that they had been singled out for any particularly hard or leading questions.)

I'd particulary like to see both candidates address the issue of healthcare affordability for people with chronic diseases. Obama seems to be writing us off, and also writing off the self employed. Self employed people have to be able to find AFFORDABLE health insurance they can afford that covers drugs. Hillary's healthcare plan limits healthcare costs to 5-10% of income but with Obama's plan, people 'save money' by having their plan cover less which means they will pay more. That is not saving money!

Another area that both candidates need to clarify. is prescription drug coverage. Most people with chronic illnesses spend a very large chunk of their income on prescription drugs and health insurers keep increasing their co-pays. Many people can't afford drugs they need so they go without, which often damages their health.

People cannot afford to spend 50% of their income on uncovered healthcare costs, drugs, or health insurance, even if their issues are expensive to treat.

Its not peoples fault the drug companies are raping us. The average drug costs $0.11 to make a months prescription. They cost far less in other countries than they do here. Why are we subsidizing low costs elsewhere in the world? We should pay what they pay, no more.

Even generic drugs now, cost huge amounts of money.


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:27:07 PM EST


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