The Challenge He Can't Refuse

I just received this from the Clinton campaign, Earlier today I'd watched a snippet of Barack's historic upcoming Fox interview where he says there have been 21 debates and he'd rather meet with voters, thank you very much.  But, maybe he'll change his mind. He and Lincoln are both tall men from Illinois, maybe the comparison will make this an offer he can't refuse.  

Here's the memo:

UPDATE: (sorry I didn't add this earlier) No more two minute limit, now the offer is the two of them agree on the rules. he can chose his weapon, short sword or long handled rake. (metaphors, means brief answers or long answers).

Clinton Camp Calls For Lincoln-Douglas Style Debates
 
Clinton campaign manager Maggie Williams sent the following letter today to Obama campaign manager David Plouffe calling for Lincoln-Douglas style debates between Senators Obama and Clinton.
 
April 26, 2008
 
David Plouffe, Campaign Manager
Obama for America
P.O. Box 8102
Chicago, IL 60680
 
Dear David:
 
The attention, excitement and energy around this presidential election is unprecedented.  The stakes could not be higher for our country and the American people.  The economy is sliding into recession, our men and women in the Armed Forces are fighting two wars abroad, and our country is reeling from the harsh legacy of the Bush-Cheney Administration. The American people are choosing a direction for their children and families.  They have a right to hear from those who want to be their leaders. Our Democratic primaries reflect the keen interest of the American citizenry in this election.  Our primaries have brought millions of new people into the political process and invigorated a national conversation about the best solutions to meet our challenges.
 
Senator Clinton believes deeply that political debates are a vital part of our democratic process.  It is the American way to place our would-be leaders side by side to hear them articulate and defend their ideas; to challenge each other on their visions for the future; to answer the tough questions about their plans, their records and their judgments; and to celebrate their achievements.
 
Senator Obama has declined the invitation from CBS and the North Carolina Democratic Party to appear for a debate at North Carolina State University tomorrow evening.  Senator Obama has apparently declined the invitation of the Indiana Debate Commission to appear for a debate in Indiana next week.  Senator Obama has not responded to Senator Clinton's challenge to debate in Oregon.  Will there be no debates in other upcoming states?  The American people, of course, deserve more.  They deserve debates before casting their votes.  They deserve debates just like the states who have participated in this invigorating process before them.
 
I understand that Senator Obama has raised the point that there have already been more than 20 debates this election cycle.  However, only four of those have been between Senator Obama and Senator Clinton.  We can all agree that many important issues have received scant attention during previous debates, including such important topics as education and the energy crisis. 
 
This year marks the 150th anniversary of the famous Lincoln-Douglas debates, a series of public debates across Illinois where two candidates put their ideas, their visions, and their values before the American people.  I have no doubt that Senator Obama, who hails from that great state, understands how valuable and vital these national conversations were to the heart of America.  We can surely meet the standard our forbearers did.  Our final two primary candidates to date have had three fewer debates than Lincoln and Douglas held in single state over 60 days in 1858.
 
And if we debate, Americans will come.  Recent debates have attracted record numbers of viewers - more than 10 million for the last one.  And a great number of voters in recent primaries have said that the debates in their states were important to their decision. 
 
Senator Obama himself suggested the last debate in Philadelphia did not provide enough opportunity to talk about issues that "matter[] to the American people."  A Lincoln-Douglas style debate would certainly provide that opportunity.  There would be no questions from the media.  There would be equal time and equal opportunity to grapple with the important policy questions we are facing today.  As Douglas put it, the two candidates would meet "for the purpose of discussing the leading political topics which now agitate the public mind."
 
In the spirit of the Lincoln-Douglas debates, we make this proposal:
 
Senator Clinton and Senator Obama will participate in a 90-minute debate in an open public forum.  Just the two of them -- no questioners, no panelists, no video clips.  One candidate would speak for two minutes, then the other, alternating back and forth all the way through the debate.  Their discussion - not any pre-set rules - would determine how long they spend on one subject before moving on to another.  Such a debate would range across all of the challenges, large and small, we face as a nation or it could focus on the most significant issue we face today, -- the economy.
 
We can readily agree on a host, a place, a date, and a broadcaster or series of broadcasters.
 
Both of our candidates are making history.  Let us continue to do so.   Let's debate.  
 
Sincerely,
 
Maggie Williams
Campaign Manager

I think this is a great offer that ought not be refused.  As is often the case my reasons are self-serving.  

(1) I want to hear them discusses their real differences on the Iraq war exit plans.  I'd like him to defend keeping private armies and Bush's no-bid contracts.

(2) Our primary has driven George Bush out of the news, I'm thinking these days, George Who?  I'd thought he'd be making it hard to even glance at news coverage with the fear of seeing his goofy face well into the year, but he's been missing for months. The longer our primary goes on, the more we'll get to see our two candidates, who even drive slut celebrities off the air, and hear about our own issues.  We get more voters, and more free publicity and much less of Bush. To me this is a win win win.  


Poll
Do you want more debates or more George bush?
Yes, more debates, I'm sick of Bush, I'd much rather look at Barack and Hillary
No, I miss George, those two interesting Democrats have taken up enough of our news coverage, bring back George.

Votes: 47
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Hillary is ignoring the blogs in Oregon (2.00 / 1)

If she wanted a regional debate, she should have called for it before Idaho and Michigan voted.

Also, we have decided on a 60-minute OPB (Oregon Public Broadcasting) special - 30 minute separate interview with each candidate, the same 5 questions.

It's done.


by AtTheZoo2136 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:22:57 PM EST

Re: Hillary is ignoring (2.00 / 4)

I thought you were supporting a debate? What don't you want him to answer to? This is about issues, not about who's wronger.  Like it's too late to ask for a debate?  Too late for what?  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:26:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary is ignoring (none / 0)

Well, anna, why not then have a debate here on MyDD with Clinton and Obama supporters on these sorts of issues. Clinton supporters are the dominant force hereabouts, and I think they'd love to shirk the opportunity to be proven wrong; an interesting parallel, wouldn't you say?

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/4/26/1619 3/6766


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:42:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary is ignoring (2.00 / 1)

Really ragekage I've heard enough from the surrogates. I do like James Carville, but I'd much rather hear the two candidates speak for themselves.  Really, it'll be cool. Or don't you think he can handle himself?  They'd agree together on the rules, he could set things up so as to feel comfortable, I'm sure. He wants to talk with world leaders and negotiate, it won't look good if he's known as the president who's afraid of girls.  That'll make him look weird.  Not manly.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:08:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary is ignoring (none / 0)

Hah!


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:16:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary is ignoring (none / 0)

No.

I'm challenging you to a debate.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:51:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ooooooooh (none / 0)

my kitchen or yours?  (you're sooo funny rage, and I'm soooo intimidated.)


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:31:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What would be great would be having a referee. (2.00 / 2)

So that when one candidate makes a false accusation against another candidate (as you do with the "defend keeping private armies and Bush's no-bid contracts" line), the referee would throw a flag and call out "Lie!" and give the offender a penalty. Like shutting of his/her microphone for 10 minutes.

The problem with a debate like this is that there is no one to call "Bullshit" on whatever either candidate throws out.


by Bob Johnson on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:26:02 PM EST

having a referee. (2.00 / 5)

she's good with the fact checks, and Lincoln didn't need one.  Maybe he can bring a crib sheet for his fact checks?  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:27:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So she's the equivalent of Lincoln or Douglas? (2.00 / 1)

She'd probably do what you did in your diary.


by Bob Johnson on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:35:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Lincoln or Douglas? (2.00 / 2)

He's from Illinois. But what do you mean? I spelled challenge wrong in the title?  but, I corrected it? Were you being mean or is that a complement?  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:37:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You got the style of the debates wrong (2.00 / 1)

they were 1 hour, 90 minutes, 30 minutes.
Also they were campaigning for their parties to control the state legislature.

Also even in these debates there were partisan remarks (note not policy comments) thrown left and right by both candidates.  This debate would likely break down into a verbal streetfight and not be a lofty debate about policy.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:46:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Um, you throw this out... (2.00 / 1)

... defend keeping private armies and Bush's no-bid contracts

That's why -- while this idea sounds noble -- it is unrealistic in terms of the sad realities of modern campaigning.

It's not the Lincoln-Douglas days anymore.


by Bob Johnson on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:50:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um, you throw this out... (2.00 / 1)

that is his position, I didn't make it up.  I still like him, but I'd like this to be explained. It's an issue, like, a real one?  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:56:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, that's not his position. (2.00 / 1)

And now you "like him?" Since when?


by Bob Johnson on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:57:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, that's not his position. (none / 0)

I've always liked him, he's cool and funny. I don't like him dissing my first choice, but I don't think she's perfect either.  Really, were she not in the race he'd be my first choice. Most of all that I don't like about him has to do with the way he speaks about Hillary. I don't have a problem with his pastor, I like Michele, and would love to see his family in the white house.  I can see he's cool, I get it. I just happen to really want her.  And yes, it is his position.  It's why he doesn't take her on over that issue, she's left of him, she's more like Dennis on exiting Iraq, and to me it's number one, first end the war, and second reverse all George's policies.  Goodness, they're both Democrats, and on some issues he's left of her.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:12:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Show me where that is his position. (2.00 / 1)

In fact, he has spoken out forcefully against the use of "private armies," and he has done so not only about Iraq, but also the use of Blackwater in New Orleans following the hurricane.

And what of Clinton's threat to "obliterate" Iran? Is that cool with you?


by Bob Johnson on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:31:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Show me where that is his position. (none / 0)

more reasons for a debate? have you convinced yourself?  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:39:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're the one making the claim. (2.00 / 1)

I simply asked for proof of your claim.


by Bob Johnson on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:33:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why should a candidate in the lead (2.00 / 2)

agree to debates with a candidate who is losing.  In the GE there are usually 3 1:1 or in the case of 1992&1996 1:1:1.

This primary has already had 4 of them.

I would be willing to bet a million dollars to a piece of string that this debate won't happen.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:28:28 PM EST

Re: Why (2.00 / 3)

the question is why not. I put forth my reasons, that have to do with free publicity and real issue discussion. You're reason is that he's ahead and need to protect his lead by avoiding debates? Sounds very retro for the so called new guy.  Plus, he'd get to play Lincoln


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:31:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly (2.00 / 2)

And because the people in the states that have not yet voted deserve to have a debate addressing their concerns.


by OtherLisa on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:33:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The reason for why not (2.00 / 1)

is the same as any candidate who is in the lead, it gives their rival free air time.

Also after the last debate I think most rational people can say that Obama has a legitimate excuse for denying any debates (unless rational people think that belief in the American Flag is a vital issue, that Reverend Wright's love of America is a vital issue, that Hillary's exaggeration about Bosnia is a vital issue).


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:34:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The reason for why not (2.00 / 2)

As the percieved "front-runer", you'd think Obama would like to end with a strong debate performance rather than one he got thumped on.

Front runner gets a good one under your belt and then duck the rest.  Instead Obama gets a bad one under his belt and ducks.

Must be the contrarian politician way.


by wasanyonehurt on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:37:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The reason for why not (2.00 / 2)

I do think we know that. Hillary has hardly been dictating, but he has indeed been taking steno, so I guess she's sort of dictating. He knows he looks like a coward, he knows this would be the highest rated debate in the history of democracy, he knows he's had a humiliating defeat in PA and a big defeat in the last debate.   He's got to be a stand-up guy, he can't be afraid of Hillary and expect the super's to stand up to her and hand it to him.  Really, this is a be there or be square event, he really has no choice.  Not cause she's dictated it, but because he'll look like a schmo if he says no.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:01:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The reason for why not (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, yeah, keep saying this all you want to. Clinton was happy to do this in the past, so you don't get any sympathy from me. Heck, I challenged you to a debate, and given Clinton supporters' position on this site (much like Obama's position in real life), you ignored it.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:04:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The reason for why not (none / 0)

Gosh, Ragekeep, you really challenged me?  I'm not her surrogate and I wouldn't mix you up with him either. Who cares if we debate, that'll get no reviews and no viewers and George Bush might get back on nightly news if the two of us were supposed to be watchable.  But thank you, I think, it is nice maybe to be seen as someone qualified to debate in her place. I'm not though.  You may be, but your name is Ragekeep, so I'm pretty sure you aren't either, forgive me if I read too much into your name, if it is your name.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:16:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The reason for why not (2.00 / 1)

Uhh, you didn't even take the time to read my name? And your answer is exactly why nobody'll care if Clinton and Obama debate again. ;)


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:19:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The reason for why not (none / 0)

not to regular folk, this is one place that sex does have an advantage, he'll look afraid of the girl. And Maureen think he fears her, and she's been for him. He looks like he's afraid to face her, that he'll look like a loser cause she's so much smarter, but he shouldn't feel bad, she's smarter than any of them, if he's been up against Kerry he would not have been afraid, Kerry would have been the one in fear.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:17:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The reason for why not (2.00 / 1)

they'd both get the free time, and this one is like a historic plot, he had time for Fox, and there won't be flag questions.  Come on, wouldn't you like to see a real one, old school?  Think up what you want him to ask her on the issues.  I bet he takes this challenge, it's hard to refuse to be an even bigger part of history.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:39:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The reason for why not (2.00 / 1)

I wish there had been some earlier debates with that format, instead of the dual-press-conference style that are called debates nowadays.

It's not going to happen now though, simply because one candidate has nothing to gain and the other has nothing to lose.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:46:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The reason for why not (2.00 / 1)

Just to clarify - take out the two minute constraints and I think it would be a neat idea.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:16:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The reason for why not (2.00 / 1)

well she says the two of them can settle on those issues, so consider that optional, to be agreed to by him and her if they want it that way.  it really would be cool, and I really think he will agree, it'll intrigue him, seduce him and give him a chance to redeem himself without those silly monitors getting in everyone's way.  i bet it would be fun for him too.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:19:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He won't take it (2.00 / 1)

see my reply upthread about the debate.  Also breaking the time chunks down into 2 minutes (instead of the 1 hour/90minutes/30minutes makes the debate more about sound bites.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:48:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He won't take it (none / 0)

that's been changed, now it's up to the two of them, no fixed time limit, he can name his weapon, long or short, whichever he likes best. but you know she's great on the long answers too, did you catch her on KO?  Poor KO wanted so much to trip her up, and he ended up sitting there with his tongue hanging out, like a silly poodle, made me laugh. So many expecting so much to get so poochy.   To meet with her in person it to like her, she's actually nice.  Does he fear liking her?  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:22:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The reason for why not (none / 0)

I don't know. Despite the Obama cash advantage I'd like to see both spend money elsewhere. It would certainly attract a national audience aching for a street brawl, i agree with that, but it could also present the opportunity for a two on one assault on McCain. If two Democrats can't set their rules and have a discussion about policies we're in pretty bad shape. What I would like to see is campaign advisors and political professionals kept completely out of it.
Barack Obama is my President. He'll be yours, too.
by Jeter on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:23:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenage He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

Bob Johnson is correct; why referees or judges are absolutely necessary. Besides, I'd say, hey. Clinton was more than happy to dodge debates when she was the frontrunner- heck, look at her Senate campaign- why not return the favor? Since all she can afford is free, why help her out?


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:29:21 PM EST

Re: The Challenage He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 2)

those aren't good reason to refuse, they're expedient reasons, reasons he would deplore. His reason is he's too busy. I don't think he'd appreciate you trying to protect him from scary Hillary, he says he's not scared, can handle himself in any international situation with no practice necessary, he won't like it that you think he can't come out ahead in such a configuration. Maureen Dowd thinks she scares him too. She thinks Michele has trained him and now he's properly scared.  But you?, you think so too?, shame!!!  I'd be a better Obama supporter than you (only I'm for HIllary).  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:43:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenage He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

Maureen Dowd thinks he's scared because he's insufficiently manly and Hillary Clinton is unnaturally, monstrously masculine.  She's spent decades trying to psycho-analyze Hillary Clinton by her choice of wardrobe.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:19:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenage He Can't Refuse (none / 0)

I wouldn't go that far, she sees Hillary as tough and scary, that's true, and she sees Barack as unmanly, kind of girly, that's true.  And she sees Barack as scared of Hillary, that's true too. And looks like it, he's too scared to debate her and after that humiliating PA defeat, so soundly defeated and after he spent all that money and petted porkers and ate grease with those PA voters too, you'd think he'd want to redeem himself. Fear is the only logical explanation, but I hope I'm wrong. I hope he's just wanting us to demand that he get on stage again and take another try, trying to rev up interest.  The show must go on?  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenage He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

You hope you're wrong?  You know you're wrong.  When you're ahead, you avoid any situations that might upset the situation.

She would, and has, done the same thing when she's been in his position.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:41:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenage He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

Two points:
1) Those weren't the rules in the Lincoln/Douglas debates

2)This isn't true:

Senator Clinton believes deeply that political debates are a vital part of our democratic process.

If that were the case she would have accepted debate requests from Lazio, Tasini and Spencer in 2000 and 2006. Instead she repeated turned them down.  

Hillary Clinton's belief on debates is whatever helps her chances of winning.  Period.


by bawbie on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:31:28 PM EST

Re: The Challenage He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 2)

then it's not that he's too scared, or it would take him far too long to prepare, or that he'd not have a moderator to protect him from Hillary (although he says he's not scared, that that's not it, it's only he's like way way too busy meeting voters and interviewing on Fox). Bob thinks he needs the protection of a moderator, but I, Hillary supporter that I am, think he'd do fine, he's a grown man, he can stand up for what he thinks.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenage He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

No.

the reason he won't debate her (if it turns out he won't, that hasn't been decided yet) is that he deems this contest over.  

When the frontrunner is far enough ahead, they just ignore the whining of the trailing candidate demanding debates.  Like Clinton did to Lazio, Tasini and Spencer.

I think he'll decide that after May 6th.  If it's still a contest at all (Hillary wins IN by a decent margin), then they'll do an OR debate.  If he wins both IN and NC, there won't be another debate.


by bawbie on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:53:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenage He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

keep saying that bawbie but he won't like you for it.  To anyone it looks like he's old style politician, preserving his votes by not giving anyone a second look.  he had such a humiliating defeat in PA, and he sucked in the last debate, so he'd rather be seen as too busy than as running the clock out.  That's always cowardly although often expedient.  But he'll probably accept it, it will give hi a chance to redeem himself. and if he doesn't we'll all know, even you although you'll not admit it out loud, that she scares him, she's so on top of all the issues and he's just not.  She speaks well and he doesn't speak that well. He's great, don't get me wrong, she's simply amazing.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:23:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenage He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

Your argument is a red herring.  Clinton and Obama are 50/50 in the polls with historic interest, diametrically opposite to the races you bring up.

1) Lazio was no closer than 12% to Hillary - Regardless he got his debate and Clinton buried him.

  1. Tasini never polled higher than 13% support but averaged 5%, are you kidding me?
  2. Spencer, again 31% of the vote - Also he got his two debates and got creamed.

Usually, the front runner wants to a good debate performance under his/her belt before dodging.  Instead Obama wished to dodge after his WORST performance.  Ever the contrarian politician.


by wasanyonehurt on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:56:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenage He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 0)

Does Hillary believe in debates or not?

The statement by Williams, and previous statements by Hillary, say that she believes in debates on principle, not on political needs.  

Of course that's not try, and everyone knows its not true, so they should stop claiming it.


by bawbie on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:01:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you're on message (none / 0)

whenever Barack is caught, he does the: SWASW (so what, anyway she's worse). It's adolescent but that's part of his base, no?  Very good Bawbie, you've been paying attention to your fearless or not leader.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:28:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you're on message (2.00 / 1)

What's adolescent is pretending that this back-and-forth over debates has anything to do with big balls, or whatever you're going on about.

He's ahead.  He wants a stable situation.  She's behind.  She wants to muddy things up and put as many obstacles in front of them as possible.  


by Mostly on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:43:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenage He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

You're reversing causality in your percentages.  Tasii got so few votes because he had no money and Hillary Clinton wouldn't debate him; combined that means no exposure whatsover.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:06:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenage He Can't Refuse (none / 0)

You mean to tell me that if Tasini had $11 million to spend on TV ads that he would have made it a contest?  uhh ok.

What quantitive data do you have that could remotely compare the Clinton-Tasini race to Clinton-Obama?


by wasanyonehurt on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:12:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenage He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

They're very similar - this isn't a contest either.  No matter what happens Hillary Clinton cannot catch Barack Obama in elected delegates.  The part of the contest where "voters decide" is over.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:24:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

really? (none / 0)

so if this were a basketball game he's so far ahead he'd sit out the final two minutes? the big difference other than both would be stupid, is that neither has the votes to win without supers, so he has not won it, and he's hardly ahead enough to risk looking like an unmanly coward who can't defend whatever positions he may or may not have, can he?  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:31:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: really? (2.00 / 1)

I made a direct reference to the situation: no matter what happens, he will emerge with a handy delegate lead.  The superdelegates will do what they do, but that's out of the voters hands at this point.

You respond with a sports analogy.  Ok.  What I can't figure out is if you think he's a coward for wanting to sit on his lead, or if you think it's a smart tactic by Hillary Clinton to try to make him look like one.  Because you go back and forth.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:45:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

After Obama's humiliating loss in Pennsylvania (2.00 / 3)

one wonders how he could refuse, but I am not sure whether he's realized that he's on the rope and might go down for the count in short order.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:36:11 PM EST

humiliating loss in Pennsylvania (2.00 / 2)

Gosh, that was a humiliating loss, wasn't it. The poor fellow got off his game right away and could hardly say a straight sentence afterwards. You'd think he'd want to redeem himself. I think he will, I think he just wants a chance to play Lincoln and not have those pesky moderators who stopped protecting him anyway.  What they hey?  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:48:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: After Obama's humiliating loss in Pennsylvania (2.00 / 1)

"humiliating loss"

being ridiculous doesn't help you candidate


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:48:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow. (2.00 / 1)

He was touted as the "front runner."  He outspent her 4-1.  He had SIX weeks to connect with Pennsylvanians.  He blanketed the airwaves 24/7 with his visage.  And he lost.

He not only lost by 9.2 percent, but his loss was spread across the length and breadth of Pennsylvania.  

He lost in 93% of Pennsylvania's 67 counties.

Humiliating.  A humiliating loss by every standard.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:11:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow. (2.00 / 2)

He cut a very substantial margin in a state where the demographics and machine were on the other side.

And he ended up with a delegate lead that is even more insurmountable.

A loss- maybe.

Humiliating-- that is just silly.  


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:16:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow. (none / 0)

how can anything be "even more insurmountable?: It wasn't even insurmountable before PA, both need to win supers, and him wussing out of a debate that will bring the party priceless publicity is hardly the way to win supers.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:33:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow. (2.00 / 2)

It's not a humiliating loss by the standards set in this primary.  Barack Obama won Maryland by 14 points.  He won Wisconsin by 17 points.  He won Virginia by 19.  He won Minnesota by 30.  He won Washington DC by 50.

I'm surprised that Hillary Clinton can even show her face.  She must be so humiliated.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:28:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow. (none / 0)

go ahead, spin it, you're a good supporter to do that. I know it's depressing but it's the right thing to do.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:34:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow. (2.00 / 1)

You must have missed the dozens of pre-Pennsylvania posts by Obama supporters where we said in unison that she'd win, probably by single digits.

You're pretending like it was a big surprise that she won, and moreover, that you weren't hoping for a bigger win.  I thought better of you.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:48:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

Oh but he can and he probably will refuse.  I would think that the main reason would be to deny her air time.


This administration is not sinking. This administration is soaring! If anything, they are rearranging the deck chairs on the Hindenburg!
by venavena on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:40:18 PM EST

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 2)

he can't deny her air time, he isn't in charge of air time.  No, he'll have to say yes, this is a great historic challenge, and if he loses but didn't debate he'll kick himself back to Chicago, and if he wins without this debate, his win will feel sly and contrived and cowardly.  Plus after his humiliating defeat in PA he needs to redeem himself.  Like a trauma, or getting thrown from a horse, you just got to get back on!!!! (really, or you'll always live in fear.) Encourage him, tell him you believe he can do it?  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:50:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

Tied?

She needs >70% of the outstanding delegates just to catch up.

I wouldn't call that tied.


by bawbie on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:54:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Earth to Bawbie!!! (none / 0)

they both need supers to win and she's already ahead in the popular vote, as counted by normal people and not Donna Brizille's, and he's starting to tank in the polls with his newly won pugs and indies. And no, it isn't his pastor problem, it's his take on social security and capital gains. he really blew it when he let that cat out of the bag.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:37:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (none / 0)

in your dreams, but of course she doesn't need as much as he needs. he outspent her three or four to one in PA, I heard he annoyed voters with all those redundant ads of him standing around looking hopeful. Maybe he should sponsor a game show with his left over cash?  Maybe if he could beat her in a debate though her sources would dry up, they'd be, oh that Barack, he was masterful in his debate with Hillary, not I see those issues are just red herrings, it's all about inspiration and hope. Let's get that first and we can worry about our bank accounts later.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:40:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

Didn't we go through this in February?  Hillary Clinton called for a debate a week, the Obama campaign replied, in effect, that it was not their responsibility to provide her with free air time.  I don't see how anything has changed except that Obama now has even more to lose - he wants to avoid anything "game changing" and she wants to create as many opportunities for that as possible.  Both sides are being entirely self-interested.

And that's what this is about.  Hillary Clinton is perfectly capable of avoiding debates entirely when she's in the lead; I'm not sure why Barack Obama should behave any differently.  Especially since there have already been 21 debates, and 4 1-on-1 debates - far more than any other primary in history.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:42:04 PM EST

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

no, this one 's different, because of his humiliating PA defeat, and that it's tied now, and that he needs to redeem himself, and that he's perceived as being afraid of the girl and he has to prove it isn't so, that he isn't afraid to be in a room with her, debating, the issues, with no one to protect him.  Really, how can he say no? I mean, under the circumstances and all?  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:52:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

"humiliating PA defeat"

I see you guys have received a transmission, and are rebroadcasting, however foolish it makes you look?

Cultists?


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:57:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ten points? (none / 0)

and he outspent her three or four to one. And he scooted out before he had to give a concession speech to his disappointed but hard working PA volunteers? And then he went into isolation for a day?  Trust me, he was humiliated. LIke everybody knows you studied hard for a test but still failed?  It's better if you didn't look like you were trying? Now he says it wasn't important, so i guess he could have saved that money?  Spent it on foreign policy advisors who have some decorum and knowledge.  Not had to pet goats?  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:43:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

Everyone knew that not only would Hillary Clinton win Pennsylvania, but what he percentage would be.  She needed a giant victory to catch up and didn't get it.  She didn't even get an unexpectedly large one.

You're being silly.  When Barack Obama wins North Carolina I'll be sure to make fun of anyone talking about how humiliating it is to Hillary Clinton, because it'll be no such thing.

Anyway it's not tied by any definition of the word.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:10:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (none / 0)

so that's a reason for him to not debate, because some don't think it's tied? most do, by the way, and he'd get a big boost if he could give a good debate. He always says he's looking forward to debating this or that, with her or with McCain, guess that's just words?  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:45:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 3)

D'oh .. I was writing about it and didn't see that a diary had already been posted.  Sorry.


by bobbank on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:45:15 PM EST

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

so post it here?  this is a great topic, an historic debate, the challenged front runner sort of against the girl, he comes in after a bruising defeat and a wretched debate performance, he's brave, he enters the room, he speaks. It'll be the most watched TV show in history. Reality tv got nothing on us dem's.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:54:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

We have had over 20 Democratic debates already. We don't need any more. It's just beating a dead horse at this point.


by Angry White Democrat on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:54:39 PM EST

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 3)

yeah, we can't have valuable information about the candidates' positions in their own words getting into the hands of the voters.


by campskunk on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:47:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

All that information is already out there from the other 20+ debates.


by Angry White Democrat on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:36:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (1.50 / 2)

Of course Hillary says whatever helps her chances of winning, SHE'S BEHIND. The Obama campaign is built on the powerful and uplifting speeches which Obama gives day in and day out. Hillary's speeches seem contrived ,uninspiring, and disengeuous. Whereas in a debate, she can cut her opponent with one comment As most females can.(that line is for all you feminists out there, male or female) Barack Obama seems to nice for this or just not experienced enough in this forum. He's the frontrunner, he can set the rules, until otherwise noted


John McCain: Everyones nowhere man
by johnny sexton on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:56:26 PM EST

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

too bad for him it's now considered a tie, and he's losing ground to McCain in key demographics. this is because he wants to tax capital gains as wages, even though that will lose revenue and because he wants to raise the cap on social security, two dumb ideas if you want to win the middle class votes. She already has the lower income voters who want to know plans and solutions.  No, he can't refuse thinking he has the nom locked up, he hasn't got it locked up, and he can't lock it up without supers, who need a reason to go for him even though he's polling lower against McCain.  A good debate performance would lock i tup, she has the guts to challenge him anyway. but you fear he'd suck?  (he probably thinks so too, which is why he's too afraid to try).  Oh, well, just another politician, or so says his turncoat pastor.  he stuck with that guy, the the guy essentially calls him a liar? Obama needs to select his friends more carefully.  Not that his pastor's positions are hard to understand, but that his pastor has to go on TV between two important primaries, and make himself the news.  almost makes me feel sorry for Barack.  But, you know, politics isn't a spectator sport.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:07:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Can't Refuse? (2.00 / 1)

Dunno, watching the death agonies of the Clinton campaign has a lurid fascination, but for me at least it is a guilty one.

I think it is probably healthier to limit this indulgence.


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:01:55 PM EST

Re: Can't Refuse? (none / 0)

there will be some like you, the ratings will be over the top, reality tv move over, it's all Democrats, we're the news.  (Isn't it fun).  I think it's healthy for our party to rule cable news and everywhere else.  I'm so glad that George isn't to be seen or heard, Barack and Hillary are everywhere.  I have a friend who's daughter is handicapped and wants more than anything to go to the Oregon debate. It'll mean the world to her.  You support him, please ask him to not wuss out and stand up for himself, not be too scared to debate a girl with no moderators and no rules other than the ones he agrees with? really, it'll be sooooo much fun.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:57:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can't Refuse? (none / 0)

I disagree.

I think we need more attention on Bush crimes, and on McCain.

This distraction is enabling them to slide.

I don't see Hillary having any remaining viability, so a debate would only offer further distraction from more important things.


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:55:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

She wants "Lincoln-Douglas" debates, but then offers up two minutes each.  L&D had an hour each, if my memory serves.  One spoke, then the other.  Then a rebuttal.  Then at the next debate, the other candidate started and got the rebuttal time.

90 minutes of two minute tit-for-tat doesn't come within 1000 miles of Lincoln-Douglas.      


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:06:39 PM EST

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

Oh I missed the two-minute part of the proposal.  Fuck that - seriously.

That's Hillary Clinton's strength; catchy sound-bites.  I was thinking that a free-wheeling hour-long uninterrupted debate would be interesting, but that Barack Obama would be crazy to accept it given his lead.

I'm dropping the "intesting" part.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:13:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (none / 0)

no, no set rules, they can decide. And he'll get a chance to redeem himself and play Lincoln on TV. Come on, don't you think he won't be able to resist? To not makes him look cowardly and like he has nothing to say on those issues he keeps claiming he wants to speak about.  After that totally humiliating defeat that came after his last debate one would think he'd feel the many need to redeem himself.  Everyone knows that John Edwards would have taken the challenge, goodness, even Richardson would have, maybe.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:51:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

no two-minute limit, that's just a suggestion, it's now whatever the two of them agree to. Isn't that cool, no sound bites unless that's what Barack wants?  Don't you think Barack is enough like Lincoln?  (he thinks so)  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:53:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

I can honestly say that I've never compared Obama to Lincoln.  I know he occasionally refers to Lincoln's speeches, but "who's most like Lincoln" isn't a criterion I use when choosing which candidate to support.  

If it's NOT limited to two minutes, that would be much better, but Lincoln-Douglas was an opportunity to provide voters a great deal of information about where the candidates stood.  That function is no longer limited to long debates with the hope that newspapers would carry the text of what was said.  


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:46:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (none / 0)

He would have to be crazy to accept..hillary with an open mike and no one to turn it off. I'm sure wolfson, Ickes, and Mcauliffe are writing up as many GOTCHA questions as they can right now......But the Candidate speaks:

   We have participated in 21 nationally televised debates, the most in primary history, including four exclusively with Senator Clinton. Senator Clinton refused an earlier invitation that had been accepted to debate in North Carolina. Over the next 10 days, we believe it's important to talk directly to the voters of Indiana and North Carolina about fixing our economy, cutting the cost of health care and ending a war in Iraq that never should have been authorized in the first place.

That's my man!If Hilary needs publicity, let her PAY for it.


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:24:46 PM EST

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 2)

that's your man?  The one who's too scared to debate her after she cleaned his clock, I can understand his fear, she's really on top of the issues. she says they can work out the details, I'm sure the two minute thing is optional, didn't you see her on KO? She doesn't only speak in two-minute sound bites. On that some accused her of unmaning KO, which is maybe what led him to take his manhood back and suggest someone (not him, he's too scared too) take her into a room and leave her there?  This is funny, his supporters not wanting to see him get spanked with no moderators to protect him from scary girls?  No wonder KO and Barack like each other, except at least Barack married a strong woman, KO can't find anyone who'll have him?  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:46:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (none / 0)

Aw, quit it Anna Shane.  In some places you acknowledge how self-interested this whole back-and-forth over debates is, but then you keep it up with "what is he, scared?"


by Mostly on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:49:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (none / 0)

I admit to my own interests, but i also think it's in the interest of the Democratic party.  We're so interesting and they aren't. This neck to neck race is riveting viewers, since the one on public airwaves. it's reality tv and everyone gets to participate. This may be the only interesting primary, the first and the last, and we can use it, by having them on TV. Now, if he fears debating he won't, but if he isn't a coward he'll see that it would be a historic event, no moderators, no time limits, two human beings on a stage, for 90 minutes, talking issues.  You'd like it too if you thought he'd do well. You should trust him more, he's learning, he isn't a dummy, she happens to be superlative, he'd look fine with another other debater she's just uniquely smart and practices, and she's totally fearless. But he'd do okay, probably, anyway if he's wanting to be president and not needing foreign policy advisors, he'd better get some more practice in, don't you think?  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:15:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

he IS scared. (2.00 / 2)

he can't explain his own policies and respond to criticisms of them. he needs a teleprompter like a COPD patient needs oxygen tanks. he's scared that the voters will see that he can't explain and defend his own policy positions.


by campskunk on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:49:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (none / 0)

Yup...that's my man......I'm proud to support him and make NO apologies......and for the record...he ain't scared to debate Hillary.


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:56:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 2)

he's too busy? Your manly man is just too busy? does he need to wash his hair?  (sounds fishy to me)  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:09:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 2)

For someone who like to speak those "WORDS" so much; and not willing to debate shows that... Obama is no mere epigone.


by SHIBAM8P on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:28:12 PM EST

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

He's so unwilling to debate.  He's refused to debate her 21 times.  He keeps doing it.  What a fraud-thug.  Plus his WORDS too.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:31:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (none / 0)

there is a name for that logic, what is it? It's not circular, it's something, where you take history as linear, with no added data, and you assume if he wasn't scared the first 21 times he can't now be scared. But, that last debate he totally tanked, and then he had that humiliating PA defeat, that must have smarted, and then his long time supporter Maureen commented on his fear of her and how he was unmanly, that had to add to the pressure. Anyway, there is a name for that kind of flawed logic, but I can't think of it. Any logicians blogging today?  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:05:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

I think it's exactly why MI and FL are not being counted as voted. I'm beginning to think that this may be the only reasonable resolution to that fiasco - blame assigned to whomever you want. But I don't know the word for it other than someone trying to project the frontrunner narrative and being wary of falling off game - think Rove manipulating everything about the 2000 and 2004 elections - and thinking they are not obliged at this point to debate anything. I think it's a mistake for Obama not to take up the offer, but I am certain others have both compelling and overwhelming reasons why Obama shouldn't.
Barack Obama is my President. He'll be yours, too.
by Jeter on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:31:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (1.00 / 1)

Why in God's name would we have another debate?

Been there, done that. 20-some times.


by DeskHack on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:42:48 PM EST

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (none / 0)

didn't read my diary?  It's okay, it's short but I didn't really expect everyone who diss'd it to read it.  I know, it's hard to read a diary before you diss it. Takes time and thinking.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:02:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (none / 0)

His campaign already responded. No. He won't do it.


by tabbycat in tenn on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:00:06 PM EST

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

oh, he can refuse, there is no way to force him against his will. but it does make him look like a coward, he's the one that called in theory for such a debate, no moderators, no pre-existing rules, the two of them can decide.  He could redeem himself from that last debate, so he does look scared. the supers know he'll have to debate McCain and they'll be looking to see if he can improve his performance.  it'll be easier, he can speak about what he likes.  


by anna shane on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:00:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 3)

This is a fabulous idea. Honestly, I'd record the damn thing. Mods suck.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 06:35:41 PM EST

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (2.00 / 1)

if your winning you don't debate. Only the candidate that is behind , asks for more debates,

If Clinton was ahead, she wpuld not be asking for debates, but would say that we have had plenty of debates 21 in all.


by BDM on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 07:05:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Challenge He Can't Refuse (none / 0)

since neither are winning though it does make sense.  If he wants to play the bogus front runner and blow her off, he'll look like a coward and he's already losing voters in his polls with McCain. That will be what the super's look at, whatever anyone says. she's ahead in the popular vote, he's ahead in pledged delegates, and they both need supers to break the tie. You