9 Things After PA

There are a few important takeaways after Clinton's win in Pennsylvania to note.

1) Clinton again excelled at the expectations game. Going in yesterday, it was Obama who was saying it would be closer than many expected and that 50 plus 1 was a win, and Clinton saying that 'a win is a win', effectively lowering the bar.

2) Clinton won the late deciders. There was talk that Obama had an internal poll showing the race at 3% a few days ago, and it looks like similarly, SUSA might have picked up the same shift. But whatever it was, the voters who waited till the end went for Clinton.

3) Obama's campaign again provided the needed boost for Clinton's financial needs. You'll recall, after Feb 5th, the Obama campaign taunted Clinton's need to self-fund, and it resulted in a online fundraising spree that propelled Clinton to her own online fundraising efforts. This time, by outspending the Clinton's 3:1, they again provided Clinton the 'David against Goliath' narrative. Given Obama's campaign strategy and media services are  directed (and profited by commission) by the same two persons, there is at worst a conflict of interest at play, and at best, a strategical blindspot of how to effectively close a lead without providing your opponent openings.

4) Less is more worked for Clinton. Along with being outdone on television by millions, the Clinton campaign claims they didn't waste money on late polling, but instead have become frugal in their consultant expenditures. The Geoff Garin for Mark Penn swap was a huge plus for the financial fundraising team as well.

4) Clinton needs to follow-through better. The after-effect is where Obama has excelled. After Feb 5th, and again after March 2nd, Obama created stronger process stories-- be they pledged delegate count or super-delegates or winning smaller states in-between or fundraising. The Obama campaign quickly managed to make the defeats he had to Clinton look like a side story.

5) The Clinton campaign needs to talk more about the popular vote. They have been taking a bigger picture view, and arguing about the GE and electability, but they need to bring it down a few notches of process, and put Obama on the defensive. The ~215K margin of victory by Clinton provides them with enough votes to take the popular vote lead, counting Florida and Michigan. It's a two-fer in that sense, providing a winning metric and making Obama say that FL & MI voters don't count. And with that, change the delegate number needed from 2025 to 2209.

6) I don't know if Guam is going Clinton, but if it does, they should celebrate it heavily, especially if it winds up with having more voters than Wyoming. Every vote counts, even the territories and especially, Puerto Rico. Don't let Obama crew intimidate Chuck Todd into marginalizing the results from PR.

7) Clinton doesn't need to go negative but can encourage the questions. Indiana has seen its share of rough contests--they don't call it the 'bloody eighth' for having cordial elections, but she has the lead there. In North Carolina, it looks like the Republicans have a coordinated attack playbook that they are launching on Obama, and Clinton isn't expected to win.

8) Clinton can win Indiana, having placed her top-notched Ohio crew there, and using the same sort of in-place infrastructure and resources that propelled her to victory in Ohio and Pennsylvania. "This is Our Country" is the best campaign song of 2008.

9) Clinton needs a strong high-profile surrogate in North Carolina. Is it true that Elizabeth Edwards is going to back Clinton?  That would be huge.



Display:


Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

hmmm, if I was the Obama campaign I would play up the Obama Brand is damaged.

everyone wants to say that, but they don't want to say NC is a must win? why?

if I were them, play up Hillary saying that this was a turning point, and point out that if it was, shouldn't she now be the favorite to sweep? and doesn't that include NC, its not a small state. and its got important demographics for the fall.


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:53:55 AM EST

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

NC isn't a "must win". everyone knows he'll win NC. Does that answer your question?

and no, she won't sweep.


!
by alex100 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:37:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

If she isn't expected to sweep, why is it expected from Obama?

The Clinton people have seem to gone into hyper-double standard mode.


by bawbie on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:05:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

it's not expected from Obama.


!
by alex100 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:17:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Wow for all the things Hillary did right, she still managed to bleed some key voters and will likely only gain 11-12 Delegates and still remain 130 behind.  Sounds like she didn't really accomplish much.


by Bobby Obama on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:57:41 AM EST

Re: 9 Things After PA (2.00 / 1)

If Elizabeth Edwards were to endorse Hillary, it really would be stunning.  But I won't hold my breath.


Yes, I am a Clintonista for Obama.
by Denny Crane on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:58:01 AM EST

Re: 9 Things After PA (2.00 / 2)

We don't need Elizabeth to narrow this in NC, though it would be great. Hillary needs to devote enough resources to capitalize on this momentum and not discount the rural White and Latino voters.  She can keep his margin to less than 20,000 votes.  This can be done.  Donate Now!


by wasanyonehurt on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:23:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (2.00 / 2)

Hillary has been connecting with rural and Latino voters throughout this campaign.

Hillary is reaching to everyone, not just the "elite".


by stefystef on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:06:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (1.00 / 1)

Momentum?  She met expectations after bleeding 15 points.  While most the national media was watching the happenings in Pennsylvania last night, here in Indiana the local media ran Robert's Stadium in Evansville packed to rafters waiting for Obama to stage -- with audio from Pennsylvania while they waited.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/106738/Gallup -Daily-Obama-Maintains-National-Lead.asp x


by MuddyWaters on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:08:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

The best song of the 2008 campaign is a song that was made for a series of truck commercials?

Try again.


by smoothmedia on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:00:05 AM EST

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

"This is our Country" is the current song in the Chevy truck commericals.  However, I think I do know the song you're talking about; Bob Seger's "Like a Rock".

Both songs are awesome, and I know it's Mellencamp....but Seger's is better.

+1


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:47:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

I congratulated Clinton supporters last night.  But I and other Obama supporters always thought Clinton would win and my estimate was always at least 10 points.

Yes, she pulled it off.

But Clinton performed worse among Democrats in PA than she did in OH -- including among white registered Democrats -- and worse among a number of other demographic groups.  


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:01:56 AM EST

Re: 9 Things After PA (2.00 / 1)

???????????????????????????

She took ALL the %'s from the white demo's.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primari es/results/epolls/index.html#PADEM


White 18-29 (8%)  51% 49%              
White 30-44 (14%) 56% 44%              
White 45-59 (31%) 62% 38%              
White 60 and Older (28%) 67% 33%

And I understand what you're trying to say, but other demographic groups make up less than 2% of the registered voters in PA.  In PA it's basically Black & White, and even the largest Black demographic group is barely at 5%.  So, to attempt to compare to Ohio is for sure an apples and oranges type of deal.  PA is not as demographically diverse and OH, and that means that if the White demographic makes up 80% of the total electorate, and there are two people vying for their votes....YES!  That's it...you get a prize!  Then they are splitting the electorate and of available voting pool voters and thus will have lower percentages.

But thanks on the congratulations.  It was very magnanamous and gracious.   Now on to.....Guam?  I guess so!


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:56:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Whites!  Woooo Hoooo!

You realize that white protestants are not a majority in this country anymore?  Which makes the media narrative they beat into the ground somewhat puzzling.  


by MuddyWaters on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:11:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Race is not the only demographic category.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:03:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (2.00 / 3)

Clinton continues to sweep the big states with the big populations.  That tells me she can win the GE.  This was a great victory, regardless of how the Obama camp tries to spin it.  

For all the upset about Mark Penn, Axelrod sure is raking in dough himself from the small donations going to Obama.  I'm certainly glad Penn is gone, but there are no saints in the business of running campaigns.


by Montague on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:01:57 AM EST

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

what does axelrod have to do with anything? The man worked an extremely difficult state (2/3 Appalachia) and cut down the initial 19 point lead by more then half (Hillary won by 9.4%).


!
by alex100 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:40:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (2.00 / 3)

Re-read the diary.  It refers to how Obama money was spent.

Forgive me for not being excited about how Axelrod worked an extremely difficult state.  Was it easier for the Clinton team?  19-point lead is a misnomer.  No poll is worth anything until mere days prior to an actual election.


by Montague on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:57:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (2.00 / 1)

translation:

I get to decide the benchmarks, on the fly, with whatever metric I prefer, whenever it suits my agenda.


by MuddyWaters on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:13:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Read the diary? It's a laundry list of talking points for delusional Clinton supporters. Give me a break. I read the diary.

Obama closed a huge gap in a Democratic contest where the demographics were aligned against him. You can talk all you want about winning the "big states" and how that somehow translates to the General Election.

But then you'd be forgetting the fact that these are Democratic primaries, where at least 80% of the voters are Democrats. In the general election, we'll be facing a completely different electorate. These primaries have absolutely no bearing on how the candidates will woo independents and moderate Republicans--two demographics Obama is strong with. Your argument is a bunch of bull, and you know it.


by Covin on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:07:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Bunch of bull?  And I KNOW it?  Get over yourself.  David Brooks is the bellwether for what's going to happen to independents and moderate Republicans who have been saying nice things about Obama.  They're talking pretty at first, and then they'll change their minds and vote for John McCain.

And you know it.  You're trying to tell yourself that won't happen and, just in case, you're getting ready to blame Hillary if Obama loses the GE.


by Montague on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:33:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

And after eight years of Bush destroying traditional conservative values, what makes you think YOU know exactly what's going on in the minds of conservatives?

I know for a fact that my conservative best friend--for at least one anecdote--ain't voting for John McCain in the fall. You would be surprised by the number of Republicans who hate that guy. He is the Joe Lieberman of the right. And if they don't vote for Obama, they might just sit the election out. That's fine by me.

I'm more than certain that Obama pulls more Republicans than Clinton. It's a fact.


by Covin on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 12:27:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

How did you arrive at the "initial 19 point lead?"

Which smoothing filter did you apply to the polling data, over what temporal range, to arrive at that being the "iniitial" starting point?


by reggie44pride on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:37:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Are you trying to insinuate that McCain has any shot of winning NJ or NY come November?  That's just like the Decider thinking he had a chance of winning CA back in 2000.  Wishful thinking my friend.  Besides, she already had 100% name recognition.  It made winning those states easier since they were so early.  Anyway, keep dreaming, if you think only big states count.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:57:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

le sigh


by Montague on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:05:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

If Kerry only won by 7 against a very unpopular Bush in NJ, I'd say NJ is in play with either candidate.

McCain is not GWB, at least not until the media makes him.


by reggie44pride on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:38:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (2.00 / 2)

Clinton isn't sweeping the urban areas in big states, which are the areas that vote blue in the general election. The rural areas traditionally vote red. Obama wins big in the areas that will need to be carried in the GE, even in the big states.

Go take a look at the county maps on CNN. With the exception of Pittsburgh and El Paso, Obama has convincingly carried every major urban area in Texas, Penn and Ohio.

Next go look at the 2004 red/blue breakdown by county. It maps much closer to what Obama is carrying than Clinton.


by tysonpublic on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:08:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (2.00 / 1)

why wont you debate her barack obama?

are you a chicken barack obama?

MEET HER IN NORT CAROLINA!


by zane on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:06:47 AM EST

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Yes, we desperately need to know if Obama believes the Reverend Wright's flag pin loves America as much as Obama's flag pin does.

Given that the last debate was a shameful farce, I don't think anyone except a few Clinton supporters is actually calling for any more Clinton-Obama debates, and those only because they think it makes a good taunt.


by alephnul on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:23:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (2.00 / 1)

The people who are calling that debate a farce are mainly Obama people seeing how he caved and got crushed under not even harsh questioning.

He doesn't want to get exposed like that again, and show that he wilts like a flower under heat and they can't bear to watch it.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:03:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

GOP Pundits Forcing Hillary Down Our Throats (none / 0)

Be sure to watch the news all day, if that's what you're into.


by bernardpliers on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:19:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (2.00 / 1)

Yes, we want to hear from the candidates in NC if you want our Vote.


by wasanyonehurt on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:25:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Because after 22 debates, there are all sorts of gotcha questions to be thrown around, the in the vague and fleeting hope that Obama will say something so stupid so as to eviscerate his super support.

Gee wonder why he's not taking the bait.

He will meet her in NC. And beat her. And then we can all realize once again that Penn is one state among many, and her 10-delegate capture ain't gonna cut it. And honestly, if he nets a 10-pointer there, she has absolutely no chance of winning the pop vote.


by jbill on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:45:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (2.00 / 1)

OK, So Obama outspent Hillary 3 to 1, He is the supposed front runner and presumed to be the nominee but loses by 10 points in an important state and I am to believe that the Obama campaign in satisfied with the results.

Are you kidding me? Anything less than a win is a huge blow to the Obama campaign. This guy kind of reminds me of the guy in a marathon or a race that is just out there to set the pace but when it comes to the end of the race they never win.


by CMFost23 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:07:13 AM EST

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Of course a win would have been better for Obama.  But a huge blow? No.

If he's so damaged, why did he pick up a superdelegate this morning?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:13:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Why? They didn't expect to win the state. They just had to make sure it was a 10-9 round not a 10-8 round.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:13:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

so, what you're saying is this - Let's outspend the GOP in either Texas or Georgia and we'll win!

Everyone knows that Appalachia is extremely pro-Hillary or anti-Obama. PA is 2/3 Appalachia. Considering the huge blow outs we saw in those parts of the state (no amount of money was gonna change those people's minds), it's a miracle the more progressive parts of the state kept him as close as they did.


!
by alex100 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:46:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (1.00 / 1)

WOW!  Now, you're saying Carville was right?

So Obama supporters were for the Alabama analogy before or after the "bitter"-ness of defeat?

You guys are too much.  But very funny in the morning.  Thanks.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:08:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

what exactly is your point?

we've seen demographics coming from previous Appalachian counties in this primary. No way in hell that he was going to win that huge PA sub-group.

so I'm not sure what's so funny but I'm glad you found some humor to spice up your morning.


!
by alex100 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:33:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

You might want to check a map, PA is not "2/3" Appalachia.
Yeesh.
by skohayes on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:23:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

sorry, it's more like 4/5:

http://www.library.appstate.edu/appcoll/ maps.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Appal achian_region_of_United_States.gif
http://www.etsu.edu/cass/about/map.asp


!
by alex100 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:28:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

He was down 20 points six weeks ago.  Did anyone seriously expect him to erase a 20 point deficit in that time?  I could turn it around and ask you why she couldn't protect her 20 point lead if you want to play that game.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:59:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (2.00 / 2)

Yes, He had six weeks of campaigning spent more money than any candidate has ever spent in the state. Outspent his opponent 3+ to 1 and what did he get nothing but another lose in a state that will be key come November.

You can try and spin it all you want but Obama is kind of looking like the Yankees over the last several years. Spending all the money they can but just not being able to close the deal.


by CMFost23 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:06:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

he didn't get "another loss". He brought down what could have been a huge pledged delegate bonanza for Hillary to something that could be wiped away in N.C. (and will be).

Hillary took a step forward last night but she'll be in a deeper hole next week then she was yesterday, with no big states left.


!
by alex100 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:37:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Oh, and by the way, Clinton had the entire state party working on her behalf, and the governor of said state auditioning for her veep slot for the last year. His money was spent to offset and institutional advantage.


by jbill on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:47:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

I've got this deed to a bridge in NYC....

It's yours for a nominal fee.


by Pericles on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:17:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

/He was down 20 points six weeks ago. /

Can you tell me what average of polls you used to arrive at that conclusion?

Six weeks ago was March 11.  So I looked within a week of that date and found Clinton +15 as the median result.


by reggie44pride on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:42:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Mellencamp (2.00 / 1)

I heard "This Is Our Country" so many times at John Edwards events in Iowa I though the guy was going to change his name to John Cougar Edwards.

Edwards got off the REAL best campaign song of the year at an Iowa City event with Tim Robbins, when he played "Salt Of The Earth" by the Rolling Stones.


by jdeeth on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:10:05 AM EST

Re: Mellencamp (none / 0)

But the Stones aren't even American!!!


by Montague on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:59:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

She's treading water (none / 0)

After Ohio she was polling at an average of 53% in PA. She finished with 54% after campaigning 6 weeks and spending 5 million dollars. She also didn't get a double digit win.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:12:25 AM EST

Re: She's treading water (2.00 / 2)

Really, So a 10 Point win is not a double digit win?

Also what does it say about Obama that he spent 3x as much and still lost by 10


by CMFost23 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:21:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's treading water (none / 0)

She didn't win by 10 points. She won by 8.5.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:24:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's treading water (none / 0)

Really, Please tell me where you are getting these numbers since both CNN and MSNBC have it at 10%

CNN's Numbers with 99% reporting
Clinton 1,258,245 55%
Obama 1,042,297 45%

Difference Clinton +215,948 10%


by CMFost23 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:38:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's treading water (none / 0)

those numbers include rounding up for Hillary and rounding down for Obama.

She leads by 9.4% and the final precincts are in the Philly counties favorable to him.


!
by alex100 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:48:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's treading water (2.00 / 1)

Per the Penn Sec. of State:

Clinton    1,235,067    54.3%

Obama      1,041,366    45.7%

link

54.3% minus 45.7% equals 8.6%


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:49:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The gap is 8.6% (none / 0)

9,179 out of 9,263 Districts (99.09%) Reporting Statewide

54.3% Clinton

45.8% Obama

8.6 spread

http://www.electionreturns.state.pa.us/


by Bee on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:52:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

45.7 Obama (none / 0)


by Bee on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:54:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's treading water (none / 0)

I'm getting them directly from the PA Department of State.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:54:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's treading water (none / 0)

8.5, 9.4, 10.

It's all the same, right?

all rounds to 10 :-D


by reggie44pride on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:43:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's treading water (none / 0)

Oh. And it says he made up 8 points and held her gains to nearly nothing in a state he was destined to lose anyway. It also says that since he did that she can't catch up in the delegate count.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:25:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's treading water (none / 0)

9.4%, not 10%. And even 10% is double digits by a hair. She needed 66% of of the remaining pledged delegates before PA. She didn't come close, so now she needs 71%. 6 weeks ago, she was up by 16%, the only undecideds she picked up at the end were the ones who shifted from her to undecided during the six weeks. She did worse among her best demographics than she did in Ohio. And she lost more SDs in the past 6 weeks than she picked up in pledged Ds on Tuesday, and she'll lose more before May 6th, when she'll lose as many PDs in NC and IN as she gained in PA.

And whatever bump in cash she got last night was probably less than what Obama picked up at the same time, and hers gets added to her few million cash on hand, and his gets added to his $50 million cash on hand.

She'll have plenty to make it to June, and giant ad buys aren't going to change enough minds to make a big difference in a proportional representative system (yay for PR systems!), but last night is definitely no big change in anything.


by alephnul on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:34:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's treading water (none / 0)

Not according to the PA SOS. According to them it's 8.5.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:36:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's treading water (none / 0)

You might to check their site again.


by reggie44pride on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:43:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

This is where things stand after PA (from demconwatch):

Total Delegates

Clinton 1588
Obama 1715


"No matter what happens, I will work for the nominee of the Democratic Party because we must win in November." -Hillary Clinton
by fugazi on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:14:47 AM EST

10th thing (none / 0)

When Hillary runs in the state whose demographics are favorable and gets a whole lot of media help, she can hang on to her base.

Let's remember all that's happened since March 4 - bittergate, rev. wright, hamas, the flag lapel pin, William Ayers.  All the things that were supposed to kill him.

What result?  He did better among white voters than he did in Ohio.  He's now practically certain to end the process with a lead in pledged delegates and in the popular vote.

And you think she is going to push 2/3 of the superdelegates her way because ... ?

One reason the Obama campaign is better about telling process stories is that they have a lot of material to work with.


by TL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:19:28 AM EST

Re: 10th thing (none / 0)

Notes on the erosion of Clinton's base from Ohio from The Field

Clinton's margin among all voters in Ohio (10.5 percent) diminished by the time she got to Pennsylvania.

The margin among registered Democrats (a 14 percent lead in Ohio) diminished by at least 39 percent in Pennsylvania.

Among white registered Democrats (70 percent of them in Ohio) - the demographic that the pastor-bashing and bitter-posturing was aimed at - Senator Clinton lost 24 percent (down to 53 percent in Pennsylvania).

Among African-American registered Democrats (14 percent of them in Ohio) she lost 42 percent of her previous support (down to 8 percent in Pennsylvania).

All the posturing and negativity didn't gain her a single yard.

In fact, Senator Clinton lost ground in every one of those key foundations of her former base vote.


by tysonpublic on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:27:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 10th thing (none / 0)

He's now practically certain to end the process with a lead in pledged delegates and in the popular vote.

That was "practically certain" long before Pennsylvania.


by TooFolkGR on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:04:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Is your point (none / 0)

that Obama should offer her the VP slot. If so, I have to agree.


by Cleveland John on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:22:34 AM EST

Re: Is your point (none / 0)

Never in a billion years, even if she threatens to Nuke him.


by telfish on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:11:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Based on the last numbers I saw this morning, If you include Florida, Obama leads the popular vote by just over 200,000 which with the contest remaining can easily be overcome.

Let see Mister new way of politics say that the votes in Florida do not count.


by CMFost23 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:23:55 AM EST

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Yeah and if my Grandma had balls she would be my Grandpa.  Florida will not be counted.  Period.  That was a decision by the DNC - not Obama.  Why is that so hard for you to understand?


by Rockville Liberal on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:28:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

I would disagree.  The vote has been counted and certified by the FL SoS.  And now Dean and the DNC has said there will be a FL & MI delegation to the National Convention.

So, indeed they do count.  All their fighting over now is the process on how to seat them.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/politics/co ntent/state/epaper/2008/04/02/dnc0402.ht ml


Democratic Chairman Howard Dean said this morning that Florida delegates would be invited the party's national convention.

And here is why Hillary should fight all the way to the Convention, and why Obama doesn't want to have the votes count.


The Democratic presidential candidate is picked based on votes from the delegates at the national convention. Most delegates make their choice based on primary results from their respective state.

Yes that's right.  AT THE CONVENTION, where the delegates actually choose the Nominee; where teh FL & MI delegation will be seated...is where Hillary will make her stand in addition to the lead in popular votes including FL & MI in her case to the SD's and the rest of the delegates on the floor.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:36:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

There is zero chance that this goes beyond the last primaries in June - Zero Chance.  Obama will continue to pick up Super's throughout the next two weeks, and will win big in NC.  Hillary may win Indiana, but it's not going to matter.  If you think that the DNC, the DLC, and all the super's have any intention of allowing this the contest to proceed to the convention for a messy floor fight, you're delusional.  This will be settled no later than the 10th of June if not before.  She has run a hell of a campaign lately on a lot less money.  Despite the spin out there today, she really didn't win PA the way she needed to win PA - considering she had the full force and weight of the PA democratic establishment behind her.  Sure, maybe she picked up $5M in donations for this week, but Obama is still going to raise $40M this month alone.  She is still at least $5M in the red while he had debts or less than $1M with over $40M on hand.  She has far more experience as a campaigner (having been around them longer than he has).  That is part of the problem with beating her - she is an exceptional political animal.  But in the same token, so is he.


by Rockville Liberal on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:26:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Popular Vote is a Meaningless Stat (none / 0)

...so I don't think including / disincluding Florida makes much difference.  With the number of caucus states we have it's almost impossible to come up with an accurate popular vote count anyway.


by TooFolkGR on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:05:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

They don't count.  I don't see why that's so hard to understand.


by ProgressiveDL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:32:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (2.00 / 2)

Actually to Both of you, I believe Howard Dean said it himself that we need to find away to make sure that the Votes in Florida count.


by CMFost23 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:40:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

They will be seated for sure.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:54:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Yes, but they certainly won't be seated "as is."  They'll be penalized (1/2 votes?  2/3?) and Michigan will be seated 50-50 or 55-45.  In any of the cases, popular vote isn't going to be official.  If you want to use it in its unofficial form and hope that sways SDs, good luck.  Here's why:

In the AP poll of superdelegates a few weeks ago, 10% said they will choose the one with the most pledged delegates.  That's Obama, by any metric you want.  So that means about 30 of the remaining 300 superdelegates will go with Obama.

10% will go with whomever won their state or

district.  I don't know the breakdown of supers, but let's give that 6/4 for Clinton because a lot of supers are from big states.  That's 18 for Clinton, 12 for Obama.

About 1/3 said they would vote for whomever was more likely to beat McCain.  I think that is, at worst, 50/50, but let's be pro-Hillary here for the sake of argument.  So of the 100 (1/3 of the total) left who go by this reasoning, let's say 60 go for Hillary and 40 for Obama.  

The other 45% said there are multiple factors.

But this means that we can estimate 82 of the remaining superdelegates going for Obama, 78 for Hillary, with about 150 undecided.

There are about 400 pledged delegates left up for grabs.  His extra 82 supers as mentioned above gets him to approximately 1800.  That means he needs some combination of 225 from 150 undecided/undeclared superdelegates and 400 pledged delegates up for grabs.  225 of 550 = 41%.

I like his odds.


by ProgressiveDL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:18:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

ahhh logic, reason and math.  My old friends...


by Rockville Liberal on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:28:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

I'm not saying its impossible for Hillary to win.  But even when we lean the numbers to be as pro-Hillary as possible, she still has a very very tough road ahead of her.  I don't think the campaign should end right now (mostly because I think she needs to go to the end so her supporters don't think it was "stolen" from her), but I'm very confident that Obama will be the nominee.  


by ProgressiveDL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:50:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.

They will have a seat at the convention.  They will be seated as soon as the nominee is decided.  Because they broke the rules they will NOT have a say in who the nominee is.

That's been the story for a long long time.


by bawbie on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:11:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What? Puerto Rico is marginal! (none / 0)

To think that PR has any real significance is ridiculous.  PR can't even vote in the general election and the DNC giving them a primary is pandering to the Puerto Rican population in the states.  Of course Hillary will win PR by a large margin because of Bill's long history with the Island and other "cultural" factors.  


by HGM MA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:25:32 AM EST

Re: What? Puerto Rico is marginal! (none / 0)

I think that is a bit strong, but I have a hard time seeing how a popular vote "victory" based on a huge victory in Puerto Rico can be sold as an argument about electibility, given the fact that PR doesn't vote in the general election. You have to try to make the popular vote into some sort of stand-in for the stolen 2000 election, but I don't think that some weird metaphoric argument like that is going to carry much weight with the SDs. We'll see, I guess, since there is no way that Clinton is getting out of the race until after June 6 when the avalanche of SDs does not come spilling over to her side.


by alephnul on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:40:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't count this, count that (none / 0)

So let's see, the Obama camp is fine with disregarding Florida and Michigan.

And now they want to disregard Puerto Rico, too.

Anything else we can do to accommodate?

Pretend we are the United States of the Southeast?


by Larissa on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:14:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't count this, count that (none / 0)

What part of Michigan and Florida have legislators that decide how to run their elections don't you understand?


by MuddyWaters on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:20:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't count this, count that (none / 0)

Not discounting Puerto Rico. Just saying that your argument viz. popular vote is resting on a territory that has no GE vote. You can keep the delegates. Doubt it will help much.

The supers won't include Mich and Fl in their pop vote calculations - at least, the supers who aren't already on Team Clinton. She's down, what, 132 total delegates? If she's lucky, she'll net another 20 or so by June. Then she'll have to convince 2/3 of the supers to overturn that.

Good luck.


by jbill on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:54:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We're Democrats (none / 0)

Every state and territory has "real significance."


by TooFolkGR on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:06:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We're Democrats (none / 0)

How is that so?  Puerto Rico has its own political parites for internal politics so you can't accurately state that a certain group of Puerto Rican's are Democrats.  Sure one party is more aligned with the Democrats, the PPD but this primary is open so anyone can vote.  Sure I wish they could vote in November, but they can't so including them in this process at this time is a wast of time.


by HGM MA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:42:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

First, congrats to Hillary on her victory.  Based on the delegate count(she's still 130+ behind), this win, an enabled her to move to the next primary.  If she wins that won, she can move to the next, etc.

However, once Obama wins another election cycle, if he does, he we will take back the momentum and people will start looking at the rest of the calendar and wonder how she can win.


by chewie5656 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:26:58 AM EST

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

we've been wondering how she can win for a long time now. it's just not possible.

the funny thing is Jerome and others who support Hillary have never laid out exactly just how she could feasibly win, using math.


!
by alex100 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:55:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

I'll lay out how it is nearly impossible, with this spreadsheet projecting future contests.

For Clinton to win, it would take a nearly 3:1 break in the superdelegates.

It could happen, but it won't.


by tysonpublic on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:17:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Percent? (none / 0)

I've heard she won by less than 9.5%.

I didn't know the "double digit victory" included a decimal point.


by bernardpliers on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:27:02 AM EST

8.5 (none / 0)

Not 10.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:35:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A Repeat of Texas (none / 0)

Corporate media over-hypes Hillary long after being contradicted by facts, Hillary supporters whine....


by bernardpliers on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:51:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 8.5 (none / 0)

You were really beating that 8.5 thing to death this morning, Esquire.

It's 9.2 on the PA site and 9.3 on CNN/MSNBC.


by reggie44pride on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:47:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She really doesn't go negative (none / 0)

Her last commercial was a sugar teat compared to what
Kerry did to Dean in Iowa.

I'm getting really fed up with NYT micro management.
They think because they endorsed her they can run
smear pieces like the one claiming her story about the
pregnant woman was fabricated.


by internetstar on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:35:17 AM EST

I hope she will do more with (none / 0)

the stellar economy that we enjoyed when Bill was prez.


by internetstar on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:36:18 AM EST

Re: I hope she will do more with (none / 0)

Deregulation works great in the short run.  We are now living with the consequences of Bill's Republican presidency.  He did more deregulation and decentralization than any time in American history.  

Are you enjoying your financial crisis, weak dollar, higher gas prices, and all the media outlets owned by foreign business interests?

'Cause that's what deregulation buys you.


by MuddyWaters on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:02:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Chuck Todd made an interesting point about Obama's spending. It forced HRC to try to match him as much as possible, draining her coffers and forcing her into further debt.
If true,she wont be able to really compete in both Indiana and SC.
If you are not voting Obama, please let me know so I can replace your sorry ass with another new voter.
by Darknesse on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:39:01 AM EST

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

chuck todd is a simple conduit of Obama talking points.


by CalDem on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:47:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Is he wrong?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:55:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Bullshit.

Not everyone who doesn't spew Clinton talking points is automatically spewing Obama talking points.

This theme that everyone in the media who doesn't bow down and kiss her feet is an Obama supporter who should be viciously attacked and completely ostracized is really disturbing.


by bawbie on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:17:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't Attack the Messenger (none / 0)

It was clearly Obama's strategy, and it worked.  Even with the influx of donations, she's still in debt.


by TooFolkGR on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:13:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary does not hold (none / 0)

a popular vote advantage unless she disenfranchises voters in the caucus states. Very easy to turn that one around.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:43:28 AM EST

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Elizabeth Edwards to back Hillary? That would be HUGE, especially if John follows her. Don't think it could flip NC, if AAs continue to vote 90% for Obama and i can't see why they'd stop then NC is out of reach for Clinton. For her to get within 5pts would be huge.


by liberalj on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:45:05 AM EST

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

The dirty little secret is Obama can't win in the general election for cultural reasons.


by nzubechukwu on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:49:44 AM EST

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Are you saying there are too many racists in America?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:55:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

It is better to lose with Obama than to even try with Hillary. AAs and young voters will abandon the party if it looks like she stole it.


by Cleveland John on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:56:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

I agree that Hillary has a very problematic path to win the general IF she somehow manages to get the nomination.

That being said, as an Obama supporter, I would much rather Hillary win the general and Obama lose it.  I don't think she can win it, but I'd support her anyway if she is the nominee.


by ProgressiveDL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:21:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah This is a No Brainer (none / 0)

People say dumb stuff like, "It's better to lose with Obama than even try with Hillary," then get defensive when people describe them as "Cultlike."

Of course there are probably Hillary supporters who feel the same way about Obama, but they're just as nuts.


by TooFolkGR on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:15:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

"cultural" reasons? my, you're pretty polite.

I have no doubt he can win the GE, but there's no way he'd outperform Hillary in Appalachia or the south due to racism or bigotry or as you like to say, "cultural" reasons.


!
by alex100 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:02:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

There is no difference between not voting for a man on his skin color and not voting for a man beacuse other people will vote against him on his skin color.

They're both racist, and dirty little racists in the Democratic Party is not a secret.


by MuddyWaters on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:24:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 9 Things After PA (none / 0)

Honestly, I would rather the racists get out in the open so we can push them out of the party.


If you are not voting Obama, please let me know so I can replace your sorry ass with another new voter.
by Darknesse on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:22:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually No (none / 0)

Not voting for a man because OTHER People will vote against his skin color is not racist, its pragmatic. Unless you're playing a game of, "Let's pretend there's only one principle int he world" instead of trying to win an election.

That said, I don't agree with that notion in the first place, and obviously Obama's got my support.  If this were 1968 I sure wouldn't be voting for Obama.


by TooFolkGR on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:16:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually No (none / 0)

Wrong.  It's still basing your vote on skin color.  


by MuddyWaters on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:25:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Question (none / 0)

Does anyone know what the delegate count would be if the democrats did not have these idiotic delegate rules? Say they had a system similar to what the Republican have.

It would just be interesting to know.


by CMFost23 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:50:06 AM EST

Re: Question (none / 0)

So what?  And if the Rethuglicans had our rules ... Mittens would be tied with McBush ...  your point is?


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:05:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Question (none / 0)

It was more out of curiosity than anything else. I was just wondering if we had clearer rules on picking delegate if this election would be over.


by CMFost23 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:08:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Question (none / 0)

I am sure she would be doing better.  When she wins, she wins by a little, when he wins he wins by a lot.  That gives him proportionally more delegates based on the actual number of votes.  Whether it's fair or not, it's the rules we have.  I do believe things need to be fixed a lot for 2012.  Too many states have funky rules because they never expected to count so late in the primary season.


by ProgressiveDL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:23:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

There isn't anything "Unclear"... (none / 0)

...about how we select Delegates.  The problem is that most people just never bother reading the rules because the race is never close.


by TooFolkGR on