A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? [updated]

Update: Text in the middle of this diary has been edited for clarity

Barack Obama, "the presumptive nominee" of the Democratic Party, must feel lousy today after losing Pennsylvania by more than 200,000 votes yesterday, despite waging an aggressive and negative  campaign against Hillary Clinton, in which he outspent her 3 to 1.   It's not hard to imagine how much greater Clinton's win would have been had advertising budgets been equalized.

Democratic strategists and experts, such as George Stephanopoulos, have said that a win of 5 points or less by Clinton in Pennsylvania would have effectively secured the nomination for Obama.  But he was unable to crack Clinton's winning coalition of union households, women, white people,  seniors, blue-collar workers, Catholics, and Jews.  As proven in other states, Hispanics bolster her nationwide coalition even more.

The results across Pennsylvania were impressive for Senator Clinton:

According to exit polls, Hillary won voters most concerned about the economy by 16 points (58-42) and union households by 18 points (59-41). She won those with incomes between 100K and 150K by 20 points (60-40); white women by 32 points (66-34) and Catholics by 38 points (69-31). She won those who decided on the last day (59-41), the last three days (58-42) and the last week (54-46). Hillary Clinton press release.

Additionally, Clinton once again demonstrated her appeal in rural and suburban America, winning nearly all counties across the state.  And her succcess in Pittsburgh serves as a reminder that she too can carry urban areas.

As expected, Obama held on firmly to his coalition of African Americans and the wealthy (over $150,000 annual income).

But the AP asks why Obama "can't close the deal."

The sobering reality is that Obama's coalition is too weak and shallow to win a major cross-section of core Democrats from shore to shore.  Losses in one or two major states would hardly be noteworthy, but accumulated losses over the past 3-and-a-half months starkly reveal a problem for this "frontrunner." California, Texas, Ohio, Florida, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania, to name a few, offer classic Democratic demographics .  Surely the super delegates must wonder whether Obama, the most successful presidential fundraiser in history, can assemble a winning Democratic coalition in any of these electorally rich states.

Also, questions about Obama's character, experience, judgment, and ability to empathize with common folk have increasingly plagued him. Red flags are popping up on a daily basis:

The company he keeps, as described by conservative commentator Andrew McCarthy is an inconvenient truth.  Obama's ambition and charisma conceal his thin senatorial records, explains Todd Spivak.  His veracity about an assortment of matters, from meeting Nadhmi Auchi to what he actually knew about Rev. Wright's bitter rhetoric, is also problematic.  And Obama's arrogance, most vividly displayed recently when he "flipped off" Hillary Clinton doesn't help his image with average Americans either.  Along the same lines, today David Axelrod audaciously insulted white working class voters by declaring them irrelevant to a Democratic victory.  That dismissive attitude, along with patriotism gaffes, likely explains why 32% of Democratic voters in Pennsylvania told a pollster that they would never vote for Barack Obama. In the words of another writer:

If he becomes the Democratic Party's nominee for President, Sen. Barack Obama will lose the general election for this reason: When the smiles and platitudes are set aside, Obama's campaign and the philosophy of his cadre amount to one big put-down of America. Source.

One no longer needs to imagine how the GOP and 527's will attack Obama where he's most vulnerable.  The North Carolina GOP has already unveiled a television ad featuring Rev. Wright's damning of America, as reported today by Marc Ambinder of The Atlantic.  Although the ad is short and crude, the devastating potential of similar assaults is indisputable.  You can view it here.

Obama's narrow delegate lead can be largely attributed  to an effective strategy in caucus states (for which his campaign deserves credit) in addition to a hypnotized mass media.  However, the media is slowing waking up, as ABC News demonstrated in last week's debate.  And legitimate questions have now been raised about whether caucuses accurately reflect the peoples' will (as illustrated most clearly in Texas, where Clinton won the popular vote by more than 100,000 but "lost" the caucuses) and whether caucus irregularities have created an unlevel playing field.

And speaking of the will of the people, Hillary Clinton now boasts a lead of 123,358 in the popular vote when results from Florida and Michigan primaries are included, according to Real Clear Politics.

Super delegates probably hoped to avoid the serious task at hand.  But because Obama can't close the deal on his own, their votes will now be determinative. And while General Election polls should be evaluated cautiously at this early date -- indicators of Obama's electability problems are evident.  For example, in Massachusetts, where Obama enjoys the support of Senators Kerry and Kennedy as well as Gov. Patrick, there is disturbing news for Sen. Obama, as reported by The Boston Herald:

While Hillary Clinton soundly beats McCain in Massachusetts in the new SurveyUSA poll, 56 percent to 41 percent, the Obama/McCain number is 48 percent to 46 percent, well within the margin of error.

A Democrat struggling here in 2008? An unpopular war, a collapsing housing market and $4 gas - if Britney Spears were running as a Democrat, she'd pull at least 50 percent of the Massachusetts vote.

John McCain poses another threat to Obama, which is the potential to attract Hispanics, a voting bloc that can make or break a general election candidate. Clinton, on the other hand, has already established her good will among Latinos.

Obama is inclined to continuously blame Hillary for his election problems. But each candidate must be accountable for his or her weaknesses.  And that is one reason I admire Hillary Clinton.  Not only has she adapted her campaign strategy and structure when necessary, Clinton doesn't take the onslaught of assaults personally.  In fact, I'd guess that her grit and determination in the face of adversity have won over more voters.  Obama, on the other hand, is an incessant whiner, which of course is an unappealing quality in a friend, colleague, or spouse.  But in a general election candidate for President, petulance is a sure recipe for disaster.

All in all, the super delegates have many factors to consider.  At this stage, they should have a fairly complete picture of each candidate's advantages and disadvantages for the General Election, including their judgment, credentials, and demographic coalitions. It would not be surprising, therefore, if super delegates begin to break towards Clinton as the primary season finally winds down.

Cross posted at texasdarlin.wordpress.com and hillarysbloggers.com



Display:


Why would he feel lousy? They predicted (2.00 / 7)

a loss all along.

Electability arguments at this point are stupid.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:29:52 PM EST

Re: Why would he feel lousy? They predicted (2.00 / 6)

shhh this is one of those diaries that Obama supporters should either avoid.

or just smile and nod.
smile and nod


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:31:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would he feel lousy? They predicted (2.00 / 5)

I've sworn off any HRC comments! I'm just anti-McCain right now! I can't help but be anti-fiction though:(


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:33:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They predicted (2.00 / 9)

It's worthy of discussion, she hasn't closed up the nom yet, although she's got the momentum and now she's getting the bucks. all along it's really been about the issues, if her competence and her huge group of experts and professionals, her unique qualifications are more desirable in the electorate than his newness and that he wasn't in office when the war authorization was voted on.  He stuck to his one message too long, he didn't plan for it to take this long, and he can do something now, if he wants to. He'd started by driving up her negatives, but that seems to have a ceiling, it's worked but voters still trust her to reverse Bush's policies and end the war, and they trust that she listens to experts and doesn't use instincts. She believes in learning from experience and from history.  He'll need to put forth more serious issues, and start to name his advisors and where he plans to lead, no more of this bottom up stuff and it's up to us to tell him where we want to go. We all want out of Iraq, better fiscal policies, universal health care, better schools, the usual Democratic ideals.  She's got a  priority, which is our kids, what they need to have great lives. He could put forth one himself, the one that means the most to him, whatever it is, and then get detailed. Someone should tell him that just going negative on Hillary works if she's blamed for it, but not if it brings him fewer votes.  I mean he can still drive up her negatives by playing her victim, that seems to work, but it doesn't stop her support,  It seems that even with all her 'baggage' she's still perceived to be highly competent, highly energetic, highly upbeat and positive, filled with hope and inspired by those who need government.    


by anna shane on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:43:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They predicted (2.00 / 7)

that's it exactly. he's got a good stump speech, but the girl can talk policy all day long about any topic you choose.

that's why he's ducking sunday's debate. it'll make him look bad.


by campskunk on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:54:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They predicted (2.00 / 2)

but the girl can talk policy all day long about any topic you choose.

So could Dukakis, Gore and Kerry.

(always astounds me that people so quick to cry "sexism" insist on referring to this sixty year old United States Senator as a "girl". )


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:17:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gore and Kerry will look like big winners (2.00 / 2)

Compared to Obama's performance in November.


by lombard on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:58:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gore and Kerry will look like big winners (none / 0)

I suspect a lot people on these boards would rather see McCain in the White House than be wrong about Obama.

Not enough to make any difference in the election, but what sad, bitter people they are.


by BlueinColorado on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:07:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You don't need to shed any tears for me (2.00 / 3)

I'm quite happy to be part of the fighting Jacksonian centrist part of the party rather than the droning, moralizing, leftist wimp wing, thank you.


by lombard on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:16:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You don't need to shed any tears for me (none / 0)

That's a riot. Hillary Clinton as a Jacksonian.

Also, I love it when people describe Hillary Lieberman Clinton as a "fighter".  

Yeah, she sure spent eight years in the Senate making GW Bush fear her mighty roar, unshakable moral courage and ferocious resolution, didn't she? All those filibusters she led, always getting out in front of an issue, no matter what the polls said.

Yeah, she was a real fighter, wasn't she? That must be why John McCain is working so hard to wear her down in the media.


by BlueinColorado on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:22:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You don't need to shed any tears for me (none / 0)

You know who brought back that term? Jim Webb.

Do you know what Jim Webb opposed, vigorously? the Iraq war.


by Democratic Unity on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:22:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gore and Kerry will look like big winners (none / 0)

No, competence matters, not just ideological divisions, particularly having seen Bush in the last 7 years. I am sure conservatives would agree that despite being on their side, Bush was one of the most incompetent presidents ever. Many of us on the dem side, made the argument that Bush was a lightweight and hadnt shown any competency in anything he did at the time of running for presidency. Now that we have our Bush in Obama (granted Obama is intelligent and is light years away from Bush in terms of oratory), we cant have it both ways. You are going to have to demonstrate how this man has shown any worthwhile competence so far as a govt servent or any major causes or progressive issues he was advocating consistently while he was in office for nearly 15 years or so. The only thing he has really done well is to promote himself and run for higher office at regular intervals.

Dont point to legislation he co-sponsored. In Illinois until Jim Jones got to be the majority leader he had a mediocre record for and after that perhaps an average record due primarily to the fact that Jones had convinced others who were working on various legislation to either give up or share credit with Obama (as a resume builder for Obama's possible senate run) in the last year or two before his US senate run.

His regular schtick is that he brings revolutionary changes to politics and he unites people. His record in Illinois senate or US senate states completley otherwise. He had done nothing to change the Illinois politics in any significant way. Indeed as I said above, his career there was mediocre as long as the repubs were a majority and even after the dem majority whatever he did was primarily due to his buddying up with Jones to get resume padding, not earned by long and hard work or spending political capital for any issue passionately. In fact he hasnt shown any passionate cause or issue that he consistently advocated or fought for with his own political capital and using bold ideas as he now proclaims. If he is so good at changing the way politics works and such a uniter he should have demonstrated that by getting republicans on his side and making sure that he had a slew of even semi progressive legislation or even non-progressive legislative success while the repubs had the majority in the illinois senate. Even under dem majority, all he managed to do was agree on a fully watered down health care bill which was negotiated with the industry lobbyists to please the republicans who werent ready to sign on otherwise. No cigar for his vaunted changing of politics or uniting everyone.

Absence any of this, shouldnt the man at least show some competency in policy discussions before expecting the voters to take a leap of faith? Particularly on this guy who has done nothing that is a worthy achievement and has advocated for nothing and hadnt at least be part of a presidential team either formally or informally? Indications are he avoided controversial issues where he could lose political capital and just wanted to keep his options open for future runs for office.

If McCain had shown competency on the job, I would most certainly consider that very seriously before dismissing him and voting for Obama. Yes, SC justice apptment and war are worries. But hey, I think McCain is actually much more moderate than he leads on (just like Obama is doing on his positioning along the political spectrum). I dont think he will appoint right wing nuts to SC or prolong the war for a long time, if he gets elected. Because sure enough he knows that is a surefire way to drive his approval ratings to the teens or twenties.


by pdxarch on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:34:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gore and Kerry will look like big winners (none / 0)

And Hillary Clinton's "competence" brought us a botched attempt at health care, Newt Gingrich, and the Iraq War. And of course, her stumblebum campaign in now way reflects on her competence.

If you're so bitter about Clinton being a loser that you're telling yourself  McCain is really a secret moderate, you're an idiot.

I apologize for being blunt, but there's no nice way to put it.


by BlueinColorado on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 10:13:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gore and Kerry will look like big winners (none / 0)

Hurray!! straight from the bot manual -- when you are confronted with logic/reason/facts put down insults. Look "bluntbot", if you only have a choice between somebody who plays at a high level and still failed at a very tough competition, and somebody who never even played at that level, to hire in your team, most normal people on the planet will hire somebody who plays at a high level but still fails. Bot geniuses like you apparently hire a guy who has never even attempted or advocated for anything worthwhile and get him to run the country.

I will agree with you on running an incompetent campaign. But if that were the standard then Bush must be the greatest president this country has ever seen.

On Iraq, did you or your great hope for this country call out Kerry on his vote when he said he was right and he would have still voted for the war knowing what he knew in 2004. I can get a direct quote from Obama saying otherwise. So put up facts or piss off. That said, yes hillary didnt lead on Iraq. But your fellow ran for cover as soon as he entered the senate and didnt do a thing to support either the censure from Feingold or on the funding for troops. He could have put his money where his mouth is and led on the senate floor on these issues. Then you would have had something to contrast the two realistically. As it stands he made a politically inexpensive stand while he was state senator from very liberal state senate distric.


by pdxarch on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 02:09:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gore and Kerry will look like big winners (none / 0)

Wow. That whole first paragraph is completely incoherent. If it were shorter, we could use it as a sort of LOL symbol for spittle-flecked ranting.

On Iraq, did you or your great hope for this country call out Kerry on his vote

I know I did.

So put up facts or piss off

So much anger. So useless. She lost because of that vote. You can spin and whine and say "Johnny did it too!!"  all you want. She lost, and that's why. Grow the fuck up and get the fuck over it.

That said, yes hillary didnt lead on Iraq. But your fellow ran for cover as soon as he entered the senate

As a Freshman, he deferred to senior politicians like Hillary Clinton, who continued to do nothing. She couldn't or wouldn't fill the void. He did.


by BlueinColorado on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 10:46:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gore and Kerry will look like big winners (none / 0)

Look,

the bot reading comprehension problems are not my problem. Its yours. Nothing new and neither unexpected.

WTF? did you even read my post or just spitting garbage out without even reading it? when I asked if your great hope called kerry out, I know the answer. If you dont you should get to know the answer or STFU. He explicitly supported Kerry and claimed he wouldnt know how he would have voted and that his position is not very different from Bush's. I didnt hear him say anything about Kerry's judgement. If you have pls point to the source of such statements. Otherwise piss off ass I said before. If you actually did question Kerry's vote, good for you. But I have no way of knowing what you actually did and when. But apparently you have no problem with Obama's support for Kerry and Kerry's support of Obama while you hold Hillary to that standard.

she lost? You mean obama has 2025 delegates and therefore the nominee today? wake up dude!! It must be in your dreams.

Do you have any understanding of what cognitive dissonance really is? or is that not in the bot manual and too much for bots to understand? On the one hand the man claims he is a great leader because he had the right judgement on Iraq and therefore only he can get us out of Iraq and on the other hand you are claiming he was following the other senior senators. Which is it, he was the follower or leader? If he was just a follower, then how in the world does he qualify to be the leader of this country and indeed a major leader in the world, while he has shown no leadership on any issue thus far, according to you due to respect for other senior senators?

If you have no worthwhile logic/reason to provide for your arguments, frothing at the mouth doesnt make up for that. you might want to give working your immature brain a shot and come up with arguments that dont contradict themselves for a change, instead of calling people names and cursing them


by pdxarch on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:07:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gore and Kerry will look like big winners (none / 0)

STFU. [...] Otherwise piss off ass I said before.

give working your immature brain a shot [...] instead of calling people names and cursing them

Yes, I'll take my lesson in mature argumentation and restrained language from you.

Why don't you call me a "bot" a few more times. That's very clever. And original.

And none of it changes the fact that Hillary Clinton has proved herself, in the Senate, to be a passive, cautious, finger-in-the-wind spectator while George Bush shredded the Constitution, and, from the AUMF to Kyl-Lieberman to "obliterate", the worst kind of war-pimping, pandering demagogue on foreign policy.

Now, to borrow an expression from your "mature brain" and remarkable rhetorical skilz: Shut the fuck up and piss off, Hillbot.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:17:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gore and Kerry will look like big winners (none / 0)

this was your first reply to my comments:
You are an idiot. I apologize for being blunt, but there's no nice way to put it Now you play the victim of my unrestrained language? You reap what you sow, Moron!!

Hillbot? What a comeback. Is that the best you learned from your "special education" clases? I have seen 5 year olds do better than this tit for tat. Sheesh!!

And none of it changes the fact that Hillary Clinton has proved herself, in the Senate, to be a passive, cautious, finger-in-the-wind spectator while George Bush shredded the Constitution, and, from the AUMF to Kyl-Lieberman to "obliterate", the worst kind of war-pimping, pandering demagogue on foreign policy

WTF? can you read the whole thread and see what I responded to before you post some complete nonsense? My original comment was about competence. Since you couldnt bring any facts/reason/logic to refute my arguement, suddenly now you change the subject and "none of it changes blah blah blah?". There ought to be some mental evaluation and minimal comprehension test or an IQ test, before people are allowed to post here and waste everybody's time.

Arguing with a chimp or watching metal rust would be more worthy of my time than trying to expect logic/reason or worthy arguments from you. Pls dont waste my time and get lost!


by pdxarch on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:05:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gore and Kerry will look like big winners (none / 0)

Oh, I remember which idiot you are now.

You're the one who said John McCain was really a secret moderate who would end the war and name moderate judges to the Supreme Court.

As for "competence", I think Clinton's combination of stupidity (AUMF, Kyl-Lieberman) and pandering ("obliterate", "gas tax holiday"), and her record of failure on the single significant initiative of her career (health care '93) more than demonstrates than anyone hoping for "competence" from a President Hillary might as well pretend John McCain is a moderate.

Oh, that's right...

(PS When I called you a "Hillbot", I was making fun of you for using the worn out "Obamabot". Try to keep up next time).


by BlueinColorado on Fri May 02, 2008 at 09:13:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gore and Kerry will look like big winners (none / 0)

Disagree.  As does, I might add, Hillary Clinton.  Either that or she was lying during the debate.  


John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way
by bosdcla14 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:50:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

In context (none / 0)

it is meant as an affectionate term of endearment:  i.e. "you're my girl!" means "you are my best friend!".  Used in another context:  "she's a dumb girl" is completely sexist.  It is whether the word is used in a positive context or not that determines its meaning.


Unity Ticket: The best damn way to kick John McCain's Ass in November!
by aurelius on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:37:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They predicted (1.50 / 4)


by SovSov on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:03:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Stuck to one message too long (2.00 / 2)

I appreciate your mentioning Obama having "stuck to his one message too long."  From the beginning I didn't feel the "against the war from the beginning" distinction had any legs outside of the left wing of the party.  After awhile, every time he mentioned it I cringed for him a little.   It started to sound like his one big qualifier to an audience that had once supported the war themselves.  Worked for his base, went nowhere with anyone else.  


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:32:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They predicted (2.00 / 1)

It's true, Anna.  Her negatives have been consistent but people keep voting for her.  It seems that voters have higher priorities than likeability, such as competence and grit.


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:45:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They predicted (none / 0)

plus, the more they get to know her the more they like her. most formed their negative opinions by listening to her detractors and were surprised she's so nice.  Aren't we lucky to support a candidate who won't let us down?  She's always even better than i hope she'll be.  


by anna shane on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 07:05:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Smiling and nodding (1.87 / 8)

perfect description of the Obama supporter ;)


by linc on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:34:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Smiling and nodding (1.60 / 5)

yep.  Symptoms of Kool-aid syndrome.


by Tolstoy on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:51:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Smiling and nodding (2.00 / 3)

Yup. Looking at polls and numbers and facts.

We sure are a kookie bunch of cultists.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:53:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would he feel lousy? They predicted (2.00 / 4)

As an Obama supporter i got one thing to say.

WIN THE DAMN PRIMARIES!!!

Enough pontificating about electability and what not, we all pundited ourselves to death just WIN. If Hillary is better she should WIN, stop whining about this and that sexism the media black voters mysoginists. Sure Hillary is great so GET THE DAMN VOTES AND ITS OVER. How simple is that! Why is it not over yet, cause she DID NOT GET VOTES. Something about Her turned off A LOT of voters, and something about Obama turned off A LOT OF VOTERS. So in the end the PEOPLE decide.

THE END


by edtastic on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:07:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A look at the results indicate (2.00 / 6)

that Senator Obama is only good at winning caucuses or primaries in which he promotes being a "Democrat for a Day."  It is interesting that I have been solicited to travel for Obama to work encouraging Repubs to become Dems for a Day.  It sounds to me like he is only interested in winning the Democratic prinary campaign because a Dem for a Day certainly doesn't intend to be a Democrat in November.

For the record, I have never been solicited by Senator Clinton to do anything that is less than honorable.  The contrast is shocking.  That is why I believe that Hillary will win this campaign because she has the good Karma.  Obama's is looking not so good.


by macmcd on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:33:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A look at the results indicate (none / 0)

First of all, I don't believe you. Second of all, at least he's knowingly trying to bring Republicans to his side. All Hillary has to do is start losing, and Republicans flock to her to help destroy the front runner. I'd rather have the Republicans voting for Obama than the Republicans voting for Clinton.


by Okamifujutsu on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:55:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A look at the results indicate (none / 0)

Democrat for a Day = You can lead a horse to water...It may not drink, but it will make him thirsty.....


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:17:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thats all thats left (2.00 / 4)

and it certainly isn't stupid.  What is stupid, is you claiming that Obama said they were going to lose PA all along- its not often that one gets to post a comment the day after they were born!  Wow!


by linc on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:34:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thats all thats left (2.00 / 2)

Actually, Obama's spread sheet predicted long ago that he'd lose PA. Hillary winning PA is like Obama winning NC. It's a non-event.  


"No matter what happens, I will work for the nominee of the Democratic Party because we must win in November." -Hillary Clinton
by fugazi on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:44:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thats all thats left (2.00 / 4)

it predicted a five-point loss, 52-47.

something has gone bad wrong with the predictions... we're in uncharted waters...


by campskunk on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:57:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thats all thats left (2.00 / 3)

The campaign stupidly didn't think that Obama's baggage would come to the forefront before the primary was over. I would imagine Wright Ayers et al. turned 5 pts into 10.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:17:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thats all thats left (2.00 / 1)

you mean 9%
I would normally leave a comment like this alone but your vitriol throughout this campaign for not only Sen. Obama but for his supporters makes me have to respond.

Oh and good job pardoning those weathermen at the end of the first clinton administration.  I am sure in no way would that come back to haunt a candidate that has already pissed off the minority and "elitist" wings of the party and has no base to count on.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:07:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Since we're being specific (none / 0)

9.2%

http://www.electionreturns.state.pa.us/E lectionsInformation.aspx?FunctionID=13&a mp;ElectionID=27&OfficeID=1


by ProgressiveDL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:18:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Since we're being specific (none / 0)

My bad


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 05:39:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thats all thats left (none / 0)

Yeah, he "stupidly" thought that his fellow Democrat would not use Republican talking points to attack him in the primary.  Well, now we know that their is no floor for what tactics Hillary will use.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:40:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thats all thats left (none / 0)

I'm astounded that there are some people who still haven't gotten over the Wright thing. This was dealt with a long time ago. Not that it was every a "scandal" that had anything to it. Seriously, this is the worst thing Clinton has dug up on him, and he used it to make one of his most inspirational speeches ever. Those of you whining about how the Republicans will tear him apart having been paying attention to the quality of the stuff anyone's been able to find. They're literally down to looking up his old neighbors to try to find a scandal. If that's not a thorough vetting, I don't know what is.


by Okamifujutsu on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 05:03:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thats all thats left (2.00 / 1)

The Wright thing was "dealt with?"  So you think that everyone is now satisfied at Obama's explanation as to why he stuck with Rev. Wright for 20 years, took his kids to hear his sermons, considered him his mentor?

Oh that's right...there is no explanation.

Obama will learn if he has not already that fancy words and speeches can't instantly dismiss the lifelong decisions and judgments he's made which are questionable.


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:51:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thats all thats left (none / 0)

Yes, 20 years, during which time he's said how many controversial things? I've never seen people get outraged at more than maybe 5 or 10. That sounds pretty reasonable to me. And how about every paster who knows Wright saying he's a good guy? You cannot take a 30 sound clip and say that it represents 20 years of a persons life.

The only way to that this was ever a problem was to say that a pastor who occasionally says controversial things is evil and trying to corrupt people. And if you think Wright was evil for pointing out social injustices in a heated way, then I guess that's as far as this discussion can go.


by Okamifujutsu on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 03:07:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yeah right (none / 0)

that is why he spent so much money and time here.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 06:21:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thats all thats left (2.00 / 3)

Sigh. There are no electability issues.

Obama's camp predicted a loss quite some time ago. Demographics.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:44:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would he feel lousy? They predicted (2.00 / 6)

Is that why he dumped the obscene amount of money into PA ads?

We are going to lose it anyway, let's waste some money.


by JoeySky18 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:38:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would he feel lousy? They predicted (2.00 / 6)

He dumped the money into PA to make HRC dump money into a state she had a 20 point lead in.  It's the same thing the DCCC is doing in republican held districts all over the country.  Stop being naive.


by Rockville Liberal on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:41:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would he feel lousy? They predicted (2.00 / 6)

Soooooo..... He spent $11 million so she would have to spend $3?


by georgiast on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:12:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would he feel lousy? They predicted (2.00 / 4)

Look at it this way--he had $41 million cash on hand half a million in debt, she had $8 million, and $10 million in debt, so who's really out the most in that deal?

Also spending that money helped him to allow people, even those who didn't vote for him this time around, to get to 'know him' so they will remember him in Nov. against McCain. Not a bad investment at all :0 have a great evening!


by Wary on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:26:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He can afford it. (none / 0)

She can't.

There's also the little matter of proportional-by-county delegate assignment, which makes heavy advertising worthwhile in Penn. even if one expects to lose...it can net you significantly more delegates in the end.

Speaking of delegates, how many did she gain?  I'm curious...I heard it was only 10-12.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:29:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He can afford it. (none / 0)

The figures I read somewhere said Hillary +8 - +12, with +10 looking the likliest outcome.


by Huck on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:36:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would he feel lousy? They predicted (2.00 / 2)

Unlike Clinton supporters, Obama and his supporters don't ignore percentages, Joey.

That's why we "dump money" on states whose primaries we don't expect to win anyway.


by Aris Katsaris on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:43:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would he feel lousy? They predicted (2.00 / 5)

Obama kept the difference to 10.  That's fantastic considering that Clinton was almost at 20 in early March.  I think his campaign would consider the money in PA well spent.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/3/12/1930 49/784
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/3/11/1433 6/5076


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:43:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would he feel lousy? They predicted (2.00 / 2)

but he predicted five. not so good.


by campskunk on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:59:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would he feel lousy? They predicted (none / 0)

For the record, if we're going to say Clinton "lost" a 20 point lead based on a select few errant polls, then anything short of a 30-35% point win by Obana in NC is a "loss."


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:28:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would he feel lousy? They predicted (2.00 / 4)

  1. He bled Clinton dry.
  2. He made sure she didn't gain many delegates.

John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:44:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why he might feel lousy (2.00 / 6)

As the press is now pounding, his inability to make it a real contest in Pennsylvania, on the heels of Ohio, is raising questions of his broad appeal.  He had to spend alot of time, energy and money to close the gap as much as he did.  And while it could be spun as only a matter of "demographics" those same damn demographics are impossible to escape in a general election.

The size of the loss is raising the question of "electability" to a new level.  Whether that's fair at this point is irrelevant.  The point is the question is now out there and gaining air time.  The remaining uncommitted supers could end this all tomorrow by declaring (enough to get her to concede) but apparently they aren't sure which way to go just yet and the electorate wants the race to continue.

It appears there are growing doubts about declaring a presumptive nominee.


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:41:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Growing doubts or panic? (2.00 / 6)

this guy cannot be given the nomination in this condition -all these swing state losses, all the baggage of Wright, cling-gate, now these ads in North Carolina - BO is not ready for prime time.  We have too much at stake to nominate BO - we need a winner - her name is Hillary Clinton.


by Molee on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:47:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Growing doubts or panic? (none / 0)

talking about baggage concerning electability?
 does a clinton supporter really want to get into an argument about bad baggage?
by theninjagoddess on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:20:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Growing doubts or panic? (none / 0)

talking about baggage concerning electability?
 does a clinton supporter really want to get into an argument about bad baggage?
by theninjagoddess on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:28:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Growing doubts or panic? (none / 0)

Do you think that Hillary will win the GE if Obama supporters, including the tens of thousand young voters who are helping to reshape the map, and she receives very little support from African americans who feel that their candidate has been overruled in the same manner Gore was vs. Bush?

The backlash against Hillary gaining the nomination will be huge if she can't overtake him in the popular vote. (and I know she claims it right now, but even the most die hard supporter has to admit the numbers she is using are bogus. It's ironic that she doesn't count his votes in MI)


by Djo on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:34:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's HILLARY who is unelectable (none / 0)

One ad in the general, and Hillary would be done:

Video clip of American soldiers in Vietnam, running for their lives as they're ambushed, terrified that they're about to die. Fade to video clip of Hillary describing her sniper fire "experience", literally smiling and laughing as she talks about it. Then cut to her joke about it on the Leno show.

Hillary's campaign for the White House? FINISHED


by ratmach on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:29:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would he feel lousy? They predicted (1.50 / 4)

Because unlike Hillary's, Obama's campaign isn't made up of morons who don't understand a proportional system and the value of limiting Margin of Victory. Also because he had far, far more money to spend, I'd bet if you go as a % of cash on hand Obama was outspent by Hillary.


by Socraticsilence on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:02:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Uh uh (2.00 / 3)

See this is the kind of comment that 1st lumps a group together and 2nd says something rude.

It doesn't help- stop it, now.

disclosure- I am an Obama fan who leans "anyone but McSame"


by califdem on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:25:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Same here (none / 0)

I am an Obama supporter and I am sick of the mud slinging between fellow Democrats.  We are doing the Republican's work for them whenever we do that.  It is fine to boost your chosen candidate, make arguments about electability, etc, but we must draw the line at personal insults.  Remember, we NEED each other in the fall, whoever wins the nomination.  If we are divided, its four more years of neocon corruption and mismanagement.

I was a Dean supporter in 2004, but I still pounded the pavement and did GOTV for Kerry.  I personally think Dean could have beat Bush, but I did my damdest to put Kerry over the top anyway.  Predictions of unelectibility are only true if we let it happen.

Good grief, we have two strong candidates and the wind at our backs.  McCain is toast no matter who our candidate is... as long as we stay united!

Peace.


by protothad on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:26:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Both Clinton and Obama have (2.00 / 2)

coalitions that are too weak and shallow to win on their own.

That's why whichever one wins needs a unified party.  I'll be there.  I hope you will also, whether it is Clinton or Obama who is nominated.


by TomP on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:58:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Both Clinton and Obama have (2.00 / 2)

I'm a Democrat. I'll vote for whatever Democrat wins the nomination. That's why I believe that whoever is trailing after the last primary should drop out.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:09:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would he feel lousy? They predicted (none / 0)

It's stupid to consider electability factors?  How so?


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:47:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? (1.50 / 14)

Obama is such an arrogant jerk for giving Hillary the super-bird.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:31:34 PM EST

Re: A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? (2.00 / 1)

Repeating a sentiment that's in the diary warrants a troll rating.  Nice.

Let's get this straight 4justice: The diarist says Obama is arrogant for flipping Hillary the bird and you rec the diary.  I say that Obama is an arrogant jerk for flipping Hillary the super-bird (middle finger AND pointer finger) and I get a troll rating.  Not sure I follow your logic.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:16:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? (none / 0)

What the fuck is a super-bird?


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:49:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? (2.00 / 2)

Dumb TR.  Uprated.


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:50:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? (none / 0)

Because it NEVER happened and you repeating does not reflect well on your own knowledge vs. blind beliefs.

Always be critical of the media, and if you do choose to parrot something you read on Redstate, for chrissake research it first.


by califdem on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:28:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? (2.00 / 1)

I wasn't aware that Redstate was talking about the superbird.  I was also not aware that people would actually think I was serious while talking about a superbird that involved both the middle finger and the pointer finger.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:41:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmmm (2.00 / 1)

Maybe a psuedo-connection to Dane Cook (superfinger) got you the troll rate.  In that case, maybe it's fair.  :-)

(Obviously kidding, but I think it's interesting how so many people turned on Dane Cook so quickly)


by ProgressiveDL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:22:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? (2.00 / 3)

You're just being melodramatic. No candidate wins every state and Obama's own spreadsheet predictions showed Clinton winning there. He doesn't feel lousy at all - he's winning. Now on the the next race.


by Becky G on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:33:03 PM EST

Re: A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? (none / 0)

and, in answer to the diarist's title question, yes, Obama is electable....


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:17:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hyperbolic/False. (2.00 / 1)

Citing Stephanopolous as any kind of expert after his atrocious tabloid behavior at the debate is also exceeingly rich.

Insane that anyone is really pursuing the "birdflipping" after it has been so soundly debunked.

This is not a good diary I'm afraid (although I commend the effort).

I'm sure you'll write it off as biased.  But at least the numbers aren't chosen selectively; I link you to this fantastic statement of fact:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/4 /23/2417/55984/47/501352


by Mardarkin on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:35:25 PM EST

Re: A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? (2.00 / 8)

Saying that Obama can't crack Hillary's coalition and thus can't win the GE ignores 2 key facts:

1) Hillary can't crack his coalition, which -- given that he is winning in popular vote-- must be larger than hers.

2) The fact that Hillary's coalition likes her better than Obama in the primary says nothing about who they will like better between Obama and McCain in the GE.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:35:57 PM EST

Re: A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? (2.00 / 3)

in 2 months, we will see who will be left standing.


by JoeySky18 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:39:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? (none / 0)

Hopefully both with Hillary campaigning with Obama as his VP.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:42:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

HRC has had to clean up after men... (2.00 / 1)

everywhere she's gone.  Why would she want to do it for Obama?


by CoyoteCreek on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:55:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: HRC has had to clean up after men... (none / 0)

I will ignore that part about cleaning up.

She would want to do it because it will give her her best chance to run for President 8 years from now.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:59:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's funny. In 8 years (2.00 / 1)

she will be an OLD woman (by Obama supporter standards).  I can just imagine the wonderful things you will all say then.

Besides - after 4 years of Obama, no Dem will be elected to the office of POTUS for another generation.


by CoyoteCreek on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:57:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's funny. In 8 years (2.00 / 2)

Please don't stereotype Obama supporters.  I would never intentionally say anything personally disparaging against Hillary.  I think--by and large -- that she is a good democrat and would make a good president regardless of her age.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:01:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Then you are the exception to BO Rulz. (2.00 / 1)


by CoyoteCreek on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:04:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Then you are the exception to BO Rulz. (none / 0)

I don't know who you have spoken with in the past but I can assure you that the Obama supporters I know are just good people trying to support the candidate that they favor.  There are bad apples in every camp but the majority of us are respectful people, your personal experiences notwithstanding.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:41:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Then you are the exception to BO Rulz. (none / 0)

Wish I could double rec this...

LOOK Y'ALL- an Obama supporter here

AND I am a nice person, who likes my Hillary-supporter friends. We have intense discussions, this is a huge moment in time- where we, hopefully, bring the US out of this awful mess the repug's have led us in to and whomever we ALL give the nod too, it needs to be as a group.

If you keep up the negative slanders you only reflect poorly on yourself, not Hillary and not the Obama supporters you slander.


by califdem on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:33:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Slander is spoken. (2.00 / 1)

Libel is written - FYI.

And you're accusing me of slander?


by CoyoteCreek on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:02:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: HRC has had to clean up after men... (2.00 / 3)

Oh, so Hillary is a MAID now?  I'm tired of this sexism!

;)


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:58:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: HRC has had to clean up after men... (none / 0)

That's what you think the VP slot is?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:10:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? (none / 0)

well no the AA and the youth vote will just automatically go to HRC.

right

right?


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:39:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? (none / 0)

It also ignores that, should Obama be the nominee, Hillary will be campaigning for him.

Possibly even as his VP.

Swap the names Obama/Hillary for the reverse situation.

Where the majority of the electability argument should be focused is on the independents, and they didn't vote in PA. It was a closed primary.


by Huck on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:39:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? (2.00 / 3)

The "longitudinal factor" is rarely taken into account during these discussions.  If Wright, Ayers, Rezko, and so on had hit the MSM earlier, the outcomes would be different.  Even still, his past is emerging.  His fast rise to power out of Chicago involves getting down with all sorts of sleazy characters who are still being pulled out of the woodwork.  Ali Ata is the latest.


by The Smoldering Crone on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:48:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? (none / 0)

Those revelations have had negligible effect on Obama now and they would have had the same effect if they had been revealed earlier.  People are tired of character assassinations and guilt by association and they vote accordingly.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:56:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? (none / 0)

There is no evidence they had any substantial effect on his performance.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:10:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Sobering Question: Is Obama Electable? (none / 0)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and um, yeah did you also hear that he was endorsed by Tricky Dick Nixon's daughter?   That will really stick some "longitudinal factor" on him.

Oh yes, you know that already, because you were one of those readers that recommended the diary earlier today that brought the Nixonian cluster bombshell to light.

Maybe some of his Chicago Gangland henchman will get caught stashing a reel to reel tape recorder in Clinton's campaign office.  I hear G. Gordon Liddy has been giving Axelrod and Plouffe "plumbing" lessons.

I bet Obama's already secretly bombing Cambodia.

Pretty soon, Barry Obama will be giving a speech flashing victory signs (with one finger on each hand) saying "I am not a crook".

He's doomed already!  Draft the articles of impeachment in case this Chicago-style slimeball gets into the White House.


by emptythreatsfarm on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:26:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She has done more for his coalition (2.00 / 2)

than he has - AAs and the creative class will come back to her.  But poor whites and hispanics will never go to him.  Tough feedback but true.

As for who will beat McCain - every day we are reminded it is Hillary - don't believe me? ask the Votemaster.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Cl inton/Maps/Apr23.html


by Molee on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:51:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She has done more for his coalition (none / 0)

Thorny fact for you:  Twice as many Democrats think Obama is more electable as president than Clinton.


by haystax calhoun on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:11:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She has done more for his coalition (1.50 / 2)

What has she done for African Americans, seriously, I mean besides providing them with the opportunity to travel throughout Mesopotamia?

As for the creative class, I'm sorry Senator Censorship isn't going to win that debate.


by Socraticsilence on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:40:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]