Okay, now what? a 50-state Electoral College analysis

I said before the Ohio primary that the big question for superdelegates would be, "did Obama peak in February, and go downhill from there?"  Obama got a huge bump from January through March based upon his incredible charisma, his speaking skills, his freshness and, quite frankly, his not being Hillary.  But the real question was always could he maintain it through November, and the test would be can he maintain it through June.  If it was a wave that would peak, superdelegates are obligated to note that, even if it means going against the pledged delegate count.  Why do I say that?  Because the pledged delegate count is no more democratic than superdelegates.  Both are part of the system, and they mutually support each other.

I know, most of you are already screaming at the screen and looking for the HR button.  But step back and think about it for a second, would you?  Rhetoric like "steal" the nomination is not helpful, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS.  You see, the whole superdelegate system IS part of the system.  It is there to help the Party avoid '72, or even '88, again. It is also there as a counter-balance to the skewed system of selecting pledged delegates, which is NOT based upon popular vote, but weighted to party-build, rewarding Democratic districts with more delegates, giving rural votes more power than urban votes, etc.  

Winning with superdelegates is no more "stealing" than winning with weighted primaries.  I don't see anybody griping that Obama "stole" Nevada, which Clinton won with the popular vote, but Obama won on delegates. Why not?  Because that was the rule.  The superdelegate process is also the rule.

Okay, on to what I hope will be a useful analysis.  I do not know the results as I begin, and will post this even if it goes against Clinton, though I suspect it will not.

I am going to look at states that might actually be in play in November.  I will first exclude states that are not going anywhere, based upon a look at elections from 1980 to present. What follows are Republican percentage numbers from the general election:

Alabama-9

2004-  62
2000-  57
1996-  50
1992-  47
1988-  59
1984-  60
1980-  48

Interesting state, Alabama.  1980 was probably an aberration, since Carter was from neighboring Georgia.  Republicans only missed 50% or more in '92, in a three-way race with a southernor on the Democratic ticket.

Alaska-3

2004-  61
2000-  59
1996-  50
1992-  39 Perot got 28.  Bush still beat Clinton by 9%.
1988-  59
1984-  66
1980-  54

Alaska is going Republican in 2008.

Arizona-10

2004-  54
2000-  51
1996-  46
1992-  38 *Perot got 23%, Clinton got 36%
1988-  59
1984-  66
1980-  60

McCain is from Arizona. Even though '96 and '92 make it look possible, with McCain on the ticket it is a foregone conclusion.

Georgia-15

2004-  58
2000-  55
1996-  47  *Perot got 6%, Clinton got 45%
1992-  42  Clinton won Georgia
1988-  59
1984-  60
1980-  40  Carter won Georgia

Is Georgia in play?  No, not really.  It can be won by a southernor, but otherwise, not a chance.  It has gotten more stridently Republican, as you can see by the blowouts in '00 and '04.

Idaho-4

2004-  68
2000-  69
1996-  52  *Perot got 12%
1992-  42  *Perot got 27%
1988-  62
1984-  72
1980-  66

Republican.

Indiana-11

2004-  60
2000-  57
1996-  47 *Perot got 10%
1992-  42 *Perot got 20%
1988-  59
1984-  61
1980-  56

Could Evan Bayh on the ticket change Indiana?  No. Probably not.  Anyway, that is only possible with a Clinton nomination, and if she gets it she has to take Obama, to heal the rift in the African American community.

Kansas-6

2004-  62
2000-  58
1996-  54  *Perot got 8%
1992-  38  *Perot got 27%
1988-  55
1984-  66
1980-  57

Something is still the matter with Kansas.

Louisiana-9  

*note - Democratic numbers, because initially I had it in a different section.

2004-  42
2000-  45
1996-  52  *Perot 6
1992-  45  *Perot 11
1988-  44
1984-  38
1980-  45

Is Louisiana really in play?  Clinton's '90s victories say "yes," but I think not.  Louisiana's Democrats are living in Houston and elsewhere.

Mississippi-6

2004-  59
2000-  57
1996-  49  *Perot got 5%
1992-  49  *Perot got 8%
1988-  59
1984-  61
1980-  49  *Reagan won by a hair

Another southern State, reliably red without a Southerner leading the ticket.

Montana-3

2004-  59
2000-  58
1996-  44  *Perot 13
1992-  35  Clinton won, with Perot taking 26
1988-  52
1984-  60
1980-  56

Nope.  Not going to happen.  Sure, Clinton won in '92, but that was purely a Perot issue.  He had one of his best performances here.

Nebraska-5

2004-  66
2000-  63
1996-  53  *Perot 10
1992-  46  *Perot 23
1988-  60
1984-  70
1980-  65

Red.

North Carolina-15

2004-  56
2000-  61
1996-  48  *Perot 6
1992-  43  *Perot 13
1988-  58
1984-  62
1980-  49  *Anderson 2

There is far too much ground to make up in North Carolina.  North Carolina will be red in November.

Oklahoma-7

2004-  65
2000-  60
1996-  48  *Perot 10
1992-  42  *Perot 23
1988-  58
1984-  68
1980-  60

Red.

South Carolina-8

2004-  58
2000-  57
1996-  49  *Perot 6
1992-  48  *Perot 11
1988-  61
1984-  63
1980-  49

South Carolina was only competitive in 1980, with Carter from a neighboring State, though Reagan still won.  Red.

South Dakota-3

2004-  60
2000-  60
1996-  46  *Perot 9
1992-  40  *Perot 21
1988-  52
1984-  63
1980-  60

Texas-34

2004-  61
2000-  59
1996-  48  *Perot 6
1992-  40  *Perot 22
1988-  56
1984-  63
1980-  55

Red.

Utah-5

2004-  71
2000-  67
1996-  54  *Perot 10
1992-  43  *Perot 24
1988-  66
1984-  74
1980-  72

Red.  Red red red.  RED!

Wyoming-3

2004-  66
2000-  69
1996-  49  *Perot 12
1992-  39  *Perot 25
1988-  60
1984-  70
1980-  62

Red.

The above states are just not in play.  Dream if you will, but we do not make up 10-20% from one election to the next.  If winning depends upon winning one of those states, we lose. It's really that simple.

Okay, what about the states we will win, whoever we run?  THese are the Democrat numbers:

California-55

2004-  54
2000-  54
1996-  51  *Perot 6
1992-  46  *Perot 20
1988-  47  *Bush won
1984-  41  *Reagan won
1980-  36  *Reagan won

Can we discount the '80s?  Probably.  Reagan was from California, and Bush was seen as continuing his legacy.  The weak win '92, and again in '96, is of concern, given that McCain is seen (wrongly) by many to be the independent maverick like Perot.  That said, California is firmly blue.

Delaware-3

2004-  53
2000-  55
1996-  52  *Perot 10
1992-  42  *Perot 21
1988-  46  *Bush won
1984-  45
1980-  38  *Anderson 12

I also had Delaware a strong win in my head, until I looked at these numbers.  It is still probably blue, but 1980-1992 give me some pause, paricularly with Perot's strong showing.

Obama won this primary by 10%.  SUSA says they both win, but that poll is two months old now.  With big wins the last four elections, and SUSA's polling, Delaware is still blue.

Hawaii-4

2004-  54
2000-  56
1996-  56  *Perot 7
1992-  48  *Perot 14
1988-  54
1984-  43  *Reagan won
1980-  44  *Anderson 10, Carter still won.

Hawaii is firmly blue.

Illinois-21

2004-  54
2000-  55
1996-  54  *Perot 8
1992-  48  *Perot 16
1988-  48  *Bush won
1984-  42  *Reagan won
1980-  41  
Reagan won

Is Illinois in play? No, not really. Yes, Reagan and Bush I won, but it has been solid in the last four elections.  

Maryland-10

2004-  56
2000-  57
1996-  54  *Perot 6
1992-  49  *Perot 14
1988-  48  *Bush won
1984-  47  *Reagan won
1980-  47  *Anderson 7, Carter won

Blue.

Massachusetts-12

2004-  62
2000-  60
1996-  52  *Perot 10
1992-  42  *Perot 21
1988-  46  *Bush won
1984-  38  *Reagan won
1980-  38  *Reagan won

Yes, Republicans won in the '80s, and Perot was strong.  However, two straight performances over 60% mean this is blue.  They can no more make up a 20% swing in one election than we can.

Michigan-17

2004-  49
2000-  51
1996-  48  *Perot 10
1992-  41  *Perot 21
1988-  51
1984-  45
1980-  43  *Anderson 7, Reagan won

This was incredibly close in '04, surprisingly close.  That said, I'm sticking with the "if Dukakis won it, we can't lose it" theme.

Minnesota-10

2004-  51
2000-  48  *Nader 5, the bastard
1996-  51  *Perot 11
1992-  43  *Perot 24
1988-  53
1984-  49  *Mondale from Minnesota
1980-  49  *Mondale from Minnesota

We keep winning it, even with Dukakis.  Minnesota will always run close, but blue.

New Jersey-15

2004-  55
2000-  56
1996-  54  *Perot 6
1992-  49  *Perot 14
1988-  48  *Bush won
1984-  47  *Reagan won
1980-  47  *Anderson 7

Blue.  Yes, Republicans always think it's in play.  New Jersey polls funny. Jersey is safely blue.

New York-31

2004-  58
2000-  60
1996-  59  *Perot 8
1992-  49  *Perot 15
1988-  51
1984-  45  *Reagan won
1980-  43  *Reagan won

Blue.

Rhode Island-4

2004-  59
2000-  61
1996-  59  *Perot 11
1992-  42  *Perot 21
1988-  55
1984-  48  *Reagan won
1980-  47  *Anderson 14

Blue.

Vermont-3

2004-  59
2000-  51
1996-  53  *Perot 12
1992-  46  *Perot 22
1988-  47
1984-  40
1980-  38  *Anderson 15

You can't call Vermont "in play," not when the Republicans would have to make up a 20% deficit from the last election.

Washington-11

2004-  52
2000-  50
1996-  49  *Perot 9
1992-  43  *Perot 23
1988-  50
1984-  42  *Reagan won
1980-  37 *Anderson 10, Reagan won

We are not going to lose a state Dukakis won. We won the last 5 elections in Washington.  It only looked close in '00 because Nader and Browne took 5% of the vote.  Washington is blue.  

Washington DC-3

2004-  89
2000-  86
1996-  85
1992-  84
1988-  82
1984-  85
1980-  75

Blue.

Okay, so what states are actually in play, who won them in the primary/caucus, and who is the stronger candidate in November? The following are Democratic numbers:

Arkansas-6

2004-  44
2000-  45
1996-  53  *Perot 8
1992-  53  *Perot 10
1988-  42  *Bush won
1984-  38  *Bush won
1980-  47  *Anderson 2, Reagan won by less than 1%

Arkansas is a state in play, but only with Clinton leading the ticket.  Arkansas has 6 electoral votes.  

C-6 O-0

Connecticut-7

2004-  54
2000-  56
1996-  52  *Perot 10
1992-  42  *Perot 21
1988-  46  *Bush won
1984-  38
1980-  38

I assumed Connecticut was safe, but had to move it.  We lost all three elections in the '80s, and the first two were huge blowouts.  Perot also performed very strongly there, and McCain will appeal to some of those people.  Frankly, I still consider it blue, but by this analysis has to be in the "in play" section.   Obama is far more likely to win Connecticut.  

C-6 O-7

Colorado-9

2004-  47
2000-  42
1996-  44  *Perot 6
1992-  40  *Perot 23
1988-  42  *Bush won
1984-  35  *Reagan won a blowout
1980-  31  *Anderson 11, Reagan won

Colorado would be strongly red but for the Perot-aided Clinton wins.  This bodes ill for us in November, and my personal opinion is that Colorado is not in play.  Perhaps holding our Convention there will help.

Obama blew Clinton away in a caucus.  A GOP poll says McCain leads Clinton there, 52%-40%, and he leads Obama, 51%-39%.  Sure, it's a GOP poll, so take with a whole shaker of salt.  That said, we just can't count on Colorado no matter who our candidate.  Who is MORE likely to turn this red state blue?  Obama.  Score so far?

C-6 O-16

Florida-27

2004-  47
2000-  49
1996-  48  *Perot 9
1992-  39  *Perot 19, Bush won
1988-  38
1984-  34
1980-  38

The ultimate swing state and the biggest state in play.  Clinton can win it.  Obama.

C-33 O-16

Iowa-7

2004-  49  *Bush won
2000-  49
1996-  50  *Perot 8
1992-  43  *Perot 18
1988-  54
1984-  45  *Reagan won
1980-  38  *Anderson 8, Reagan won

Obama won a 5-way caucus.  Every poll available says Obama wins it and Clinton loses it.

C-33 O-23

Kentucky-8

2004-  59
2000-  57
1996-  45  *Perot got 8, Clinton got 44
1992-  41  *Clinton won
1988-  55
1984-  60
1980-  49

Is Kentucky in play?  Based on '96, '92, and '80, perhaps, but only with a Southerner leading the ticket.  But with 57% and 59% most recently, it's hard to call this anything but a red state.  On the other hand, can you discount a State Clinton actually won, if Clinton is heading the ticket?  No.  I don't think so.

Clinton is on her way to a blowout in Kentucky.  She is also within the margin of error against McCain in the latest polling.  Advantage Clinton.  

C-41 O-23

Maine-4

2004-  53
2000-  49  *Nader 6
1996-  51  *Perot 14
1992-  38  *Perot 30
1988-  43  *Bush won
1984-  38  *Reagan won
1980-  42  *Anderson 10, Reagan won

Yikes. I thought Maine was safe, but with three BIG Republican wins in the '80s, plus Perot's strongest showing, this is a tough race.  Obama won huge there, by 19.  

C-41 O-27

Missouri-11

2004-  49  *Bush won
2000-  47
1996-  47  *Perot 10
1992-  44  *Perot 21
1988-  47
1984-  40
1980-  44

Obama won the primary by a statistically insignificant margin.  On the other hand,
SUSA says Clinton can win it, but Obama can't.  What value polls this far out?  Not much, not when they are this close.  Call this one a wash and split the delegates with the extra to Clinton.

C-47 O-32

Nevada-5

2004-  47
2000-  46
1996-  44  *Perot 9
1992-  37  *Perot 26
1988-  38
1984-  32
1980-  26

Clinton is the only Democrat to win Nevada in thirty years, and only in very close three-way elections. Hillary won the popular vote but Obama got one more delegate. Right now, polls say Obama is stronger.  I'm going to put my thumb on the scale for this close one, for Obama, lest people say I'm cheating for Hillary.  

C-47 O-37

New Hampshire-4

2004-  50
2000-  47  *Bush won
1996-  49  *Perot 9
1992-  39  *Perot 22
1988-  36
1984-  31
1980-  28  *Anderson 13

New Hampshire is clearly a battleground state, though it only brings 4 electoral votes.  Clinton bested Obama by 2% in a four-way contest, so that's really a draw.  Polls right now make it a soft McCain state, with Obama performing better than Clinton.  

C-47 O-41

New Mexico-5

2004-  49  *Bush won
2000-  48  *Gore won
1996-  49  *Perot 8
1992-  36  *Perot 24, Bush won
1988-  47
1984-  39
1980-  36  *Anderson 6

This is a true battleground state.  Clinton won the primary by one percentage point.  Big deal.  
Polling flips back and forth as to who makes the better candidate.  Split the five delegates, and give Clinton the extra for winning the primary.  

C-50 O-43

Ohio-20

2004-  48  *Bush "won."  Yeah, right. I was there.  Games were played.
2000-  46
1996-  47  *Perot 10
1992-  40  *Perot 21
1988-  44
1984-  40
1980-  41  *Anderson 6

Nobody doubts Ohio is a big battleground state. It also brings 20 electoral votes to the table.  Clinton won big in the primary.  She is also polling better than Obama.  SUSA's most recent poll has her over McCain by eleven, but Obama down two.  Advantage Clinton.  

C-70 O-43

Oregon-7

2004-  51
2000-  47  *Nader 5, the bastard.  Gore won.
1996-  47  *Perot 8
1992-  42  *Perot 24
1988-  51
1984-  43
1980-  38  *Anderson 10

Under the "we won't lose a state Dukakis won" theory, Oregon is a lock. However, it has been uncomfortably close lately, so we'll call it in play.  They won't go to the polls until May 20.  It is almost a blue lock, but not quite.  With
Obama it is a lock, but not quite with Hillary, so give this one to Obama.  
C-70 O-50

Pennsylvania-21

2004-  51
2000-  51
1996-  49  *Perot 9
1992-  45  *Perot 18
1988-  48  *Bush won
1984-  46
1980-  42  *Anderson 6, Reagan won

Republicans won all the races in the '80s, we won since then.  However, our wins in '00 and '04 were within 5 points.  Clinton and Obama both lead in every poll but Strategic Vision.  I am tempted to keep this in the "in play" column and give Clinton another 21 points, because I think McCain can really make it competitive.  The difference between Pennsylvania and other states like Michigan and Minnesota is that Dukakis lost.  He won in the other states.  

C-91 O-50

Tennessee-11

2004-  42
2000-  48
1996-  45  *Perot 5
1992-  47  *Perot 10
1988-  41
1984-  41
1980-  48  *Reagan won by 3/10%

Clinton won twice, Carter barely lost, and Gore came close (but is a favorite son candidate).  Is Tennessee really in play?  We won it in two of the last four elections.  Of course it is.  Hillary won big in the primary.  Every poll but one calls it a McCain blow-out.  Hillary, however, outperforms Obama there by a mile.  

C-102 O-50

Virginia-13

2004-  45
2000-  45
1996-  45  *Perot 6
1992-  40  *Perot 13
1988-  39
1984-  37
1980-  40  *Anderson 5

Is Virginia trending Democratic?  Republican numbers are sure down from the 80s.  On the other hand, the last Democrat to win Virginia was LBJ. I think this goes red in November, but I'll keep it "in play" for now.  Obama MIGHT be able to put it in play.  Clinton can't.  

C-102 O-63

West Virginia-5

2004-  43
2000-  46
1996-  51  *Perot 11
1992-  48  *Perot 16
1988-  52
1984-  44
1980-  49  *Anderson 4, Carter won

Clinton x2 and Carter won, but we would have to make up 13% from the last election.  That is a tough nut to crack, but call it "in play," with 3 of the last 7.  Clinton is going to blow Obama away in the primary, and polls ahead of McCain, while Obama can't even see him in the distance.

C-107 O-63

Wisconsin-10

2004-  49  *Kerry won
2000-  48  *Gore won
1996-  48  *Perot 10
1992-  41  *Perot 21
1988-  51
1984-  45
1980-  43  *Anderson 7, Reagan won  

Yes, Dukakis won.  On the other hand, the last two elections have been less than a single percentage point apart.  This is in play.  Obama blew Clinton's doors off in the primary and outcompetes her against McCain.  

C-107 O-73

Okay, so how does this all shape up?

The Republican states account for 156 electoral votes.  The Democratic states account for 199 electoral votes.  Now, throw in the "in play" states, and the final tally with Clinton is Clinton - 306, McCain 229.  With Obama, the final tally is Obama 272, McCain 263.  

Let's go, again, state by state:

Alabama-9  
McCain 9 Clinton 0  /  McCain 9 Obama 0

Alaska-3  
McCain 12 Clinton 0  /  McCain 12 Obama 0

Arizona-10  
McCain 19 Clinton 0  /  McCain 19 Obama 0

California-55
McCain 19 Clinton 55 / McCain 19 Obama 55

Delaware-3
McCain 19 Clinton 58 / McCain 19 Obama 58

Georgia-15
McCain 34 Clinton 58 / McCain 34 Obama 58

Hawaii-4
McCain 34 Clinton 62 / McCain 34 Obama 62

Idaho-4
McCain 38 Clinton 62 / McCain 38 Obama 62

Illinois-21
McCain 38 Clinton 83 / McCain 38 Obama 83

Indiana-11
McCain 49 Clinton 83 / McCain 49 Obama 83

Kansas-6
McCain 55 Clinton 83 / McCain 55 Obama 83

Louisiana-9
McCain 64 Clinton 83 / McCain 64 Obama 83

Maryland-10
McCain 64 Clinton 93 / McCain 64 Obama 93

Massachusetts-12
McCain 64 Clinton 105 / McCain 64 Obama 105

Michigan-17
McCain 64 Clinton 122 / McCain 64 Obama 122

Minnesota-10
McCain 64 Clinton 132 / McCain 64 Obama 132

Mississippi-6
McCain 70 Clinton 132 / McCain 70 Obama 132

Montana-3
McCain 73 Clinton 132 / McCain 73 Obama 132

Nebraska-5
McCain 78 Clinton 132 / McCain 78 Obama 132

New Jersey-15
McCain 78 Clinton 147 / McCain 78 Obama 147

New York-31
McCain 78 Clinton 178 / McCain 78 Obama 178

North Carolina-15
McCain 93 Clinton 178 / McCain 93 Obama 178

Oklahoma-7
McCain 100 Clinton 178 / McCain 100 Obama 178

Rhode Island-4
McCain 100 Clinton 182 / McCain 100 Obama 182

South Carolina-8
McCain 108 Clinton 182 / McCain 108 Obama 182

South Dakota-3
McCain 111 Clinton 182 / McCain 111 Obama 182

Texas-34
McCain 145 Clinton 182 / McCain 145 Obama 182

Utah-5
McCain 150 Clinton 182 / McCain 150 Obama 182

Vermont-3
McCain 150 Clinton 185 / McCain 150 Obama 185

Washington-11
McCain 150 Clinton 196 / McCain 150 Obama 196

Washington DC-3
McCain 150 Clinton 199 / McCain 150 Obama 199

Wyoming-3
McCain 153 Clinton 199 / McCain 153 Obama 199

Now add in the states that are only barely likely to be swing states:

Kentucky-8
McCain 161 Clinton 199 / McCain 161 Obama 199

Maine-4
McCain 161 Clinton 203 / McCain 161 Obama 203

Pennsylvania-21
McCain 161 Clinton 224 / McCain 161 Obama 224

Tennessee-11
McCain 172 Clinton 224 / McCain 172 Obama 224

West Virginia-5
McCain 177 Clinton 224 / McCain 177 Obama 224

and now for the real swing states.  These fall into three different categories, only Clinton can win, only Obama can win, either can win.  First, only Obama can win:

Iowa-7
McCain 184 Clinton 224 / McCain 177 Obama 231

Oregon-7
McCain 191 Clinton 224 / McCain 177 Obama 238

Virginia-13
McCain 204 Clinton 224 / McCain 177 Obama 251
*Virginia is going red, but at least Obama is occasionally near the margin of error.

Okay, now for the states only Clinton can win:

Arkansas-6
McCain 204 Clinton 230 / McCain 185 Obama 251

Florida-27
McCain 204 Clinton 257 / McCain 212 Obama 251

In all fairness, I need to put Colorado in the "Obama can, Hillary can't" column:

Colorado-9
McCain 213 Clinton 257 / McCain 212 Obama 260

Either one can win Connecticut, but Obama is a lot stronger:

Connecticut-7
McCain 220 Clinton 257 / McCain 212 Obama 267

They're both going to win Maine:

Maine-4
McCain 220 Clinton 261 / McCain 212 Obama 271

Missouri has to go in the "only Clinton can win it" column.  She is ahead in the latest SUSA poll, and Obama can't even see the finish line:

Missouri-11
McCain 220 Clinton 272 / McCain 223 Obama 271

They both win Nevada

Nevada-5
McCain 220 Clinton 277 / McCain 223 Obama 276

New Hampshire is very pink right now.  Obama has a better shot than Clinton at making it blue:

New Hampshire-4
McCain 224 Clinton 277 / McCain 223 Obama 280

New Mexico will go red with McCain from next door:

New Mexico-5
McCain 229 Clinton 277 / McCain 228 Obama 280

Wisconsin will go blue:

Wisconsin-10
McCain 229 Clinton 287 / McCain 229 Obama 290

And that leaves Ohio.  What a surprise, eh?  Clinton is simly stronger in Ohio.  Obama has only polled ahead of McCain once this year there, by one point, in a PPP poll.  After yesterday, well, that means pretty much nothing.

Ohio-20
McCain 229 Clinton 307 / McCain 249 Obama 290

Conclusion:

Both candidates can win in November.  In a 50-state analysis, Clinton is the stronger electoral candidate.  The superdelegates can do the same analysis, and are doing it right now.  I predict that they will force a Clinton-Obama ticket, with Obama tasked to keep his troops calm and in the fold.  I know everybody likes the idea of a "50 state strategy," but that just doesn't work so well with the Electoral College.  The truth is there is, at best, an 18 state strategy, because the rest are just not in play.


Poll
Who is a stronger Electoral College candidate?
Hillary Clinton
Barack Obama
John McCain
Pat Paulson

Votes: 35
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Re: Okay, now what? a 50-state Electoral College (none / 0)

ok if you predict BOTH candidates can win,

then why do the supes put clinton first?

Electability was the biggest concern you put that to rest, so why are the flipping the pledged delegate winner again?

I agree with your analysis I just dont think the supes will go oh few Obama can EASILY beat McCain ok lets give the nomination to Hillary.

I could be wrong but we will see.


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:06:46 PM EST

Premature (2.00 / 1)


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:07:02 PM EST

Obama tasked?? (none / 0)


   the WINNER of the most votes and most pledged delegates will be "tasked to keep his troops calm and in the fold?"

  You might want to rethink that.


by southernman on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:10:31 PM EST

You know what else (none / 0)


   is part of the system? Caucuses! Tell that to Hillary, since she's whined about them for months.

  You know what else is part of the system..RULES... that MI and FL violated. Claim the system or don't, but Hillary needs to quit trying to game it.


by southernman on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:11:53 PM EST

Re: Okay, now what? a 50-state Electoral College (none / 0)

Not that it would impact your conclusions, but Nebraska can, theoretically, split it's electoral votes. Same with Maine, I believe. Not that I think it has ever happened, I don't believe


John McCain wants to make abortion illegal
by Lost Thought on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:20:13 PM EST

Is HRC really electable after her Tuzla lie? (none / 0)

That's a question that I'd like to urge the readers and Democrats/SDs to ask themselves.

Please see my comment in the DK version of this diary.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:21:27 PM EST

you got some of your states wrong (none / 0)

Bush did not win Massachusetts in 1988, and Dukakis did not win Michigan in 1988. Also, perot really only changed the outcomes in Colorado, Montana, because Louisiana went for Clinton in both elections by just too big margins for Bush to have ever catched up, if you allocate Perot's vote on exit polls, which showed him taking equally. So Louisiana could be in play, there is something Bill Clinton had that Kerry and Gore didn't, along with Tennessee. Pennsylvania went for Clinton by huge margins in 1996 and 92 which were also insurmountable, and seeing Hillary's strong blue collar appeal which Gore and Kerry didn't have in 2000 which made it close, i'd consider Clinton pretty good prospects there this fall. to be safe tho, she's gotta put someone who can get blue collar votes, because Bill was a male, and Hillary may have sexism trouble


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:23:10 PM EST

Re: you got some of your states wrong (none / 0)

Good point. Michigan voted Republican in 1972, 1976, 1980, 1984 and 1988. Very winnable for McCain, especially if he puts Romney on the ticket (Romney is originally from Michigan and his father was governor of Michigan). If Obama is the nominee and seating Michigan delegates become a big issue at the convention, Michigan could become out of reach for Obama.

I still think that the Democratic nominee is still the favorite to win the election. Once the nomination race is over, I expect the winner to get a big bounce and start with a fairly sizable lead over McCain in the General Election. What could destroy the Democrat's chances is if the Michigan and Florida issue makes the losing side feel that they were robbed.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:34:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama May Not Even Win Massachusetts... (none / 0)

Massachusetts--a blue state--has Obama and McCain tied!

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion /op_ed/view.bg?articleid=1088709

But that's not all. There's more extremely bad news for Obama's electability in November:

http://www.correntewire.com/obamas_sour_ apples_to_apples_part_one


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:25:35 PM EST

Obama will beat war-monger McCain's (none / 0)

pants off in MA once the GE campaign gets underway. Why? Because McCain is a war monger and MA folks don't like war much.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:30:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you don't understand MA (2.00 / 2)

not all blue states are the same.  That is a fact of life in the USA that you always seem to ignore.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 05:35:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My argument is that MA is largely anti-war (none / 0)

60% in MA probably opposed the war even before it began. One should be able to pull out some polls showing this. That was my point.

Why don'y you either show this point to be wrong or point to something else which you think will be more dominant when it comes to Obama vs McCain in the general (instead of shooting the messenger :)).


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 05:54:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama May Not Even Win Massachusetts... (none / 0)

The main problem is that Obama sounds and is friends with Gov. Patrick - He has very low approval ratings and has been a complete failure.

Lets not forget that there HAVE been republican Govenors here.. romney.


by Jaz on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 05:07:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

www.electoral-vote.com (none / 0)

Check out http://www.electoral-vote.com Currently it shows Clinton wins and Obama at 269 EVs with a tie in NC. If he takes NC he wins if he looses NC It will be 269 Obama 269 McCain, a tie. But dig deeper into the numbers.

If you add the strong and weak states for each candidate together as states they will likely win and add barely and tied states together to get the battleground you find in Clinton v. McCain Clinton has solid support in states worth 172 EVs and McCain has 226, the battleground is 130 EVs. In Obama v. McCain Obama has solid support in states worth 211 EVs, McCain has 178 and the battleground is 149.

Meaning Obama starts much stronger against McCain at his expense with a battleground slightly larger which is to his advantage with his fundraising.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:30:48 PM EST

Re: www.electoral-vote.com (none / 0)

By the current electoral map if Obama wins PA there is a 269-269 tie...of course we win by having the house.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:37:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: www.electoral-vote.com (none / 0)

The site I linked to gives him PA. But the point is that electorally he starts in a much stronger position then Clinton does. This has remained consistent for months now.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 05:27:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, now what? a 50-state Electoral College (none / 0)

Both Candidates will easily beat McCain for several reasons:

A. Though we don't have a comparable PUSA race, often in 'bitter' primaries there are threats in polls of the losing side defecting.  This rarely comes through.  If either candidate simply retains 33% of those claiming, today, they will vote for McCain that candidate will get a 4% general bounce.

B. Obama, and to a lesser extent Hillary, are currently beating McCain head-to-head.  If the nominee wins by more than 2% it is a near impossibility for the electoral college to differ from the national vote winner.

C. Democrats hold a lead over McCain in 8 of the 10 most important voting issues.  Voters have not heard McCain and when the do they won't like it.

D. McCain has not been attacked while Clinton and Obama have been put through the ringer by each other and the media for weeks.

E. John McCain could be outspent 2-1, especially if Obama is the nominee

F. John McCain will not be able to turn out evangelicals in the way Bush has.  That is the only way Bush has won the last two cycles.

G. John McCain turns out 0 new voters.  Obama increases Youth and AA turnout and Clinton increases Women's turnout.

H. John McCain looks terrible in debates, and will look worse if he has to stand next to Obama.

I. John McCain is extremely flub prone.  In the past month he called the economy a fabricated mental problem for many Americans (and he calls Obama elitists).  And, he made the same Sunni-Shi'a mistake three times.  In one year he has offered "Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Iran," "100 Years in Iraq," "There will be more wars," and half of those occurred when the media was paying 0 attention to him.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:36:38 PM EST

Re: Okay, now what? a 50-state Electoral College (none / 0)

E. John McCain could be outspent 2-1, especially if Obama is the nominee

But, outspending Clinton more than 2-to-1 hasn't helped Obama in some of the largest states.

by zenful6219 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:48:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, now what? a 50-state Electoral College (none / 0)

I think it has... Only 4 months ago he was an unkown.  For those of us who pay attention we are familiar with him, but most voters judgment is still out.  That is why Clinton closes well.  His money did close California, Texas, Ohio, and Penn - to one degree or another - he improved in all those states.  It is also often forgotten that VA is a large state, and he did very well there.  I also continue to dispute the idea that we can make general judgments off the primary.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:52:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Eh. (none / 0)

Okay, fine, let's pretend that primary outcomes have something to do with general election results; they don't, but that seems to be the current Clintonist justification.

If Hillary loses the blue states she failed to carry in the primary, some by 2:1 margins, she loses 83 Electoral votes.

And is correspondingly toast.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:45:44 PM EST

Re: Eh. (2.00 / 1)

I pretended no such thing.  The conclusions were based on past history, primary numbers, and most recent polling.


by dhonig on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 05:05:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Te premise of your diary (none / 0)

is that primary outcomes correlate in some way to GE outcomes. That's nonsense. You're talking about different voter universes, a different issues landscape, and a differently positioned opponent.

I'm more than willing to cordially agree to disagree with you here, given that we tend to agree on things nine times out of ten; but I think your base argument is flawed.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 05:26:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Te premise of your diary (2.00 / 1)

I probably explained the conclusions poorly, given the size of the damned thing.  Really, I did not give much weight to primary victories in most states, but looked instead to history and polls.  I did give it some weight in Ohio, because I looked at the voters who went for Clinton and see them as the swing voters in the state.  Otherwise, I only used it where applying a tie-breaker, divvying up delegates where I saw the state as a toss-up, and giving the extra to the primary winner.

No fighting, just trying to explain the process.


by dhonig on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 05:48:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, now what? a 50-state Electoral College (2.00 / 1)

Dukakis did not win Michigan in 1988.
Bush 54% - Dukakis 46%
by johnnygunn on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 05:12:45 PM EST

Re: Okay, now what? a 50-state Electoral College (2.00 / 1)

Thanks.  I need to fix that.  Heck, just note it here.


by dhonig on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 05:15:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, now what? a 50-state Electoral College (none / 0)

Hey, I'm reading it with a fine-tooth comb.
I'm always do picky, picky - but it's good stuff.
by johnnygunn on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 05:23:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New Mexico? (none / 0)

I'm not sure when you have ever been in New Mexico,
but the "Arizona next door" aspect is just plain wrong.  

New Mexico are culturally, economically, and politically quite different.

New Mexico has consistently been far more Democratic than Arizona - plus you have a major senate race there this fall with Udall leading the state ticket.

Then there's Gov. Richardson, Lt. Gov. Dinesh.
Very Democratic state.


by johnnygunn on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 05:22:48 PM EST

Re: Okay, now what? a 50-state Electoral College (2.00 / 1)

What about a probability curve??

Yes, at this level of analysis, both candidates appear to win in November.  But what about ranking the states - with those that are weaker pulled out one by one.  Who would win in a squeaker?  Isn't that an important aspect, as well?


by johnnygunn on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 05:25:42 PM EST

Re: Okay, now what? a 50-state Electoral College (2.00 / 2)

It is, and I tried to do so toward the end.  


by dhonig on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 05:49:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, now what? a 50-state Electoral College (2.00 / 1)

DH -

I've been crunching numbers expecting to see this on the rec list.
What is wrong with folks?
This is a damn-good diary.

Ah, well, the pie fights have more whipped cream, I guess.


by johnnygunn on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:59:12 PM EST

Re: Okay, now what? a 50-state Electoral College (2.00 / 1)

Thank you.


by dhonig on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:24:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, now what? a 50-state Electoral College (none / 0)

Strong historical analysis, Dhonig.  Looks like I can cancel Professor Sluggo's history class tonight.

You might want to attend my next math class though ;)

After discussing each state in detail, your final conclusion was:

Clinton 306, McCain 229 (535 total, ok so far)
Obama 272, McCain 263 (535, again ok)

However, your second conclusion at the end states:

Clinton 307, McCain 229 (now 536, 1 too many)
Obama 290, McCain 249 (now 539, 4 too many)

I noticed MBNYC didn't notice this discrepancy...no surprise, since he flunked out of Professor Sluggo's math class, AND geography class last night.

Of course, no one else noticed either.  I suppose Professor Sluggo really knows his stuff!


Never let the bullies win.
by SluggoJD on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:25:13 PM EST

Re: Okay, now what? a 50-state Electoral College (none / 0)

Not to mention the huge discrepancy between Obama's first total, and second total.  Hillary's was off by 1, Obama's by 18.


Never let the bullies win.
by SluggoJD on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:28:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wisconsin (none / 0)

Feingold's coatails carried Kerry. No Statewide races this year, tough for either D. Both Clinton and Obama look much worse to the firearms voter than Kerry once the gun orgs get cranked up, Obama has a bit less of a problem as guns here is seen more as a Rights issue than simply hunting.

Strong tradition of split tickets, easy ballot access for 3d Parties.

At the polls registration means we always have either best or 2nd young voter turnout in the country.

Add these factors, Obama has a 52% chance at the EVs, Clinton 37%.




Democratic Candidate, US Senate, Wisconsin 2012
by benmasel on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:44:04 PM EST


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