Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Florida and Michigan delegations to be seated

Republished with the express permission of authors Jon Winkleman and Jeffrey H. Campagna

Senator Obama and his surrogates, including MoveOn.org, are waging a public relations battle to pressure the DNC to refuse credentials to the Michigan and Florida delegations for the Democratic National Convention. Their message consists of misrepresentations and lies about the DNC rules concerning these states. Unfortunately most news outlets and commentators are repeating this misinformation without ever checking the Obama campaign's claims for accuracy against the actual DNC rules.

It is critical that every one of us combat this misinformation. There has been much discussion recently about the will of the voters. We can't accurately determine which candidate has the greatest support amongst primary voters if we disregard the preference of 1.5 million voters in Florida while giving outsize weight to the 250,000 who caucused in Iowa, and even more outsize influence to the mere 20,000 people who participated in the Democrats Abroad contest.

Senator Clinton won decisive victories in both Florida and Michigan in January and is entitled to the delegates she won from those states. In the tight race for delegates, Florida and Michigan could decide who will be the Democratic nominee for president.

Regardless of who wins the nomination, it is important that the victory be based in the rules. If the nominee's victory is perceived to be based on false information or rules violations, the Party will be divided going into November. We can't afford such a scenario.

Please correct all misstatements and cite the actual sections of the Rules where applicable. Also direct the person repeating the misinformation to the actual DNC Delegate Selection Rules posted online at,

http://a9.g.akamai.net/7/9/8082/v001/dem ocratic1.download.akamai.com/8082/pdfs/2 008delegateselectionrules.pdf

In addition to forwarding these talking points to fellow Hillary supporters, send them to Obama supporters who you believe support a fair application of the rules. Point out to them that it is for the good of everyone that all understand the rules of the game. If someone remains argumentative and insists that Hillary is cheating, simply ask,

"Have you actually read the rules?"


DNC Delegate Selection Rules: Florida & Michigan

True or False?

1) The DNC Rules state that pledged delegates elected by Florida and Michigan voters must be excluded because those states scheduled primaries before February 5, 2008.

FALSE: The DNC Delegate Selection Rules explicitly give the Rules and Bylaws Committee and the Credentials Committee ultimate jurisdiction over delegate selection. These committees, each in their independent capacities, can seat the delegates from Michigan and Florida at their discretion.

2) The mandatory penalty for a state holding a primary before February 5, 2008 is exclusion of that state's delegates from the Democratic National Convention.

FALSE: The mandatory penalty is exclusion of one half of the offending state's pledged and alternate delegates. Unless otherwise provided, the other half of that state's pledged and alternate delegates will be seated at the convention.

3) Any attempt to seat 100% of the pledged or unpledged delegates of Florida and Michigan at this point is "changing the rules."

FALSE: The DNC Rules explicitly contemplate that excluded delegates will eventually be seated at the Convention. For states in violation of the timing rules, the DNC Delegate Selection Rules provide remedies to reinstate all of their delegates, both pledged and unpledged.

4) Florida is not entitled to reinstatement of its delegates because the Democrats in the Florida State Legislature did not make efforts to keep the state's primary in compliance with DNC Rules.

FALSE: Evidence that that a Republican majority in the state legislature set the primary date in violation of the DNC timing rules in spite of efforts by the state's Democratic legislators to keep the primary in compliance is grounds for appealing a DNC decision to strip a state of its delegates.

Though Florida has a 2:1 Republican legislative majority, the DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee ruled that the Democratic minority did not make sufficient efforts to keep the primary date in compliance with DNC Rules. The Florida State Party disputes this factual finding. The State Party argues that the Democrats in the legislature were robbed of meaningful power to stop the Republican effort to set an early primary date because Republicans drafted the controlling legislation and packed it with other unrelated issues which the Democrats in the legislature felt they could not in good conscience oppose.

5) The DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee has taken action and is unable to change the sanctions imposed on Florida and Michigan.

FALSE: The Rules and Bylaws Committee has the power to lift any and all automatic sanctions along with the power to impose and modify additional sanctions. The Rules and Bylaws committee also has the power to create its own committee to create an alternative process for delegate selection should the state party not cooperate or be unable to resolve the issue on its own. The Rules and Bylaws Committee failed to use the tools it had to independently resolve the matter in good faith before Florida and Michigan voters went to the polls of the ill timed primaries to express their candidate preference.

6) Hillary violated the DNC Rules by keeping her name on the Michigan ballot.

FALSE: Nowhere in the DNC's Delegate Selection Plans is there any suggestion or command that any candidate remove his or her name from a ballot in a state that is in violation of timing rules. This is why Obama and Edwards were on the Florida ballot, in spite of its primary also being before February 5.

7) Hillary manipulated the process by being the only candidate who kept her name on the Michigan ballot.

FALSE: Kucinich, Dodd and Gravel also kept their names on the Michigan ballot. In fact the decision of some candidates to remove their names from the Michigan ballot was a tactical move designed to curry favor with Democratic Party officials in Iowa who were concerned that the significance of their first-in-the-nation status was being diminished. The risk paid off handsomely for Obama.

8) Because Edwards and Obama were not on the Michigan ballot, that election cannot be considered a legitimate expression of voter preference of a presidential candidate.

FALSE: According to the Delegate Selection Rules & Bylaws, "Delegates shall be allocated in a fashion that fairly reflects the expressed presidential preference or uncommitted status of the primary voters..." The Michigan ballot included an option for "uncommitted" to ensure that voters could express a presidential preference or uncommitted status consistent with this rule. Nothing in the Rules requires a state to allocate delegates to candidates who voluntarily remove their names from the ballot as John Edwards and Barack Obama did.

9) The primaries in Florida and Michigan are invalid because voters were under informed due to the lack of active campaigning.

FALSE: Voters in Florida and Michigan were very well informed. They had ample access to newspapers, television, books, radio, and the Internet. They could have availed themselves of over a year of coverage of the 2008 election. They could watch every campaign commercial on YouTube. They had the same opportunity as the rest of America to watch 17 televised debates.

Moreover, nowhere in the DNC rules does it specify that candidates must campaign directly in a state to make its primary a legitimate expression of voter candidate preference. Voters in Alaska and Hawaii never get visited by the candidates.

10) All the candidates signed a pledge to the DNC not to campaign in the states violating primary timing.

FALSE: The candidates signed no such pledge to the DNC.

11) Hillary violated the rules against campaigning in Florida and Michigan.

FALSE: Jurisdiction over determinations of whether a candidate shall be considered in violation of the relevant rule (Rule 20 C.1.b.) lies with the Rules and Bylaws Committee. Because the Committee has not ruled against either candidate, it is false to assert that either candidate is in violation.

12) Hillary signed a pledge that she violated by remaining on the ballot in Florida and Michigan?

FALSE: The only pledges signed were between the candidates and the state party chairs in Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Nevada. More to the point, they were not binding on the DNC, which is the only organization that has authority over seating delegates. Thus, these pledges are not controlling over the seating of Florida and Michigan delegates.

13) Hillary's activities in Florida and Michigan look suspicious, between fundraising and holding a victory rally in Florida.

FALSE: Hillary acted well within the letter and spirit of the rules. The rules stipulate that candidates can fundraise in states violating the timing rules and that fundraising activity is not considered impermissible campaigning. Further, the prohibition on campaigning in any state ends as soon as the primary in violation concludes. Hillary's victory party was within the rules because she did not appear at a campaign event in Florida until after the polls closed.

14) Barack Obama would likely win more delegates if there were a new contest.

FALSE: The rules provide that a candidate who campaigns or holds press conferences in a state in violation of timing may not receive any of the pledged or unpledged delegates from that state. Because Barack Obama campaigned in Florida when, on Sunday September 30, 2007, he held an impromptu public news conference in Florida, when he bought television advertising time on stations in markets which included much of Florida, and when he ran a campaign in Michigan to encourage voters to vote "uncommitted," Barack Obama may not be entitled to receive any delegates from Florida or Michigan.

15) Reinstating any of the delegates from either Florida or Michigan would be a travesty against democracy and fair elections. It would be cheating.

FALSE: There are many good and valid reasons for the DNC to have rules regarding delegate selection timing, but none of these reasons relate to ensuring that primaries accurately reflect voter preference. None of these involve the preservation of democracy.

Neither Clinton nor Obama has the power to reinstate the delegates unless they already have won 50% plus 1 of the total delegates. Therefore neither has the power to cheat. This matter lies in the hands of the DNC's Rules & Bylaws Committee which is neutral.

Were Obama to gain control of the Credentials Committee at the DNC, he would have the power to exclude the delegates from Michigan and Florida. That would be a biased effort to disenfranchise two large states. That would be a travesty and one the Republicans could easily exploit in November.

16) Hillary has changed her position on Florida and Michigan now that she may not receive 50% + 1 of the total delegates need to win before the pledged delegate primaries conclude.

FALSE: From the beginning of the Florida controversy, Hillary has consistently stated that if she wins, meaning securing 50% + 1 of the total delegates, she will reinstate the Florida and Michigan delegation at the convention if the DNC fails to resolve the problem on their own before such time.

Obama has changed his position now that seating the Florida and Michigan delegates would put Hillary in the lead. In August of last year he said that resolving the delegate issue was not his job ("I'm like a player on the field. I shouldn't be setting up the rules" ) and in September he suggested to Florida donors that if he were the nominee whether he would seat in the state's excluded delegates, declaring that he would "Do right by Florida voters."

Currently the race for pledged delegates is so split that neither candidate will receive the 50% plus 1 delegates they need to seal their nomination before the Convention. Obama now wants to set the rules and insists that the DNC must refuse to seat Florida and Michigan's delegates, even though DNC Rules clearly provide remedies to include them. His arguments are not based in the rules and are not in the interest of democracy or the Democratic Party, but only in the fact that those delegates reflect a greater nationwide preference for Hillary Clinton.

17) A new primary or caucus would settle the issue in a fair way that would maintain party unity.

FALSE: A new primary or caucus that complies with timing rules would have been fair if the date had been set before people started voting in Iowa. Once people started voting, each subsequent primary or caucus was affected. The campaigns have campaigned and spent money in reliance on this calendar. The candidates, campaigns, and electorates are not the same today as they were before voting began. Any new contest would be on an unlevel playing field. It is unnecessary, an insult to the voters who already voted, and unacceptable.

Sources:
2008 Delegate Selection Rules for the Democratic National Convention (hereinafter "DNC Rules"), Rules 19-20, Sections C. 4-9, Section D.
DNC Rules, Rule 20, Section C.1.a.
DNC Rules, Rule 20.C.5-7 provide several remedies including empowering the Rules & Bylaws committee to implement processes to seat the delegates from an offending state
DNC Rules, Rule 20 C.7.
DNC Rules, Rule 20 C.6-7
DNC Rules, Rule 13 A.
DNC Rules, Rule 19 B., Rule 20.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2007/08/25/AR2007082500275. html?hpid=topnews
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/ obama-vows-do-whats-right/?news-breaking



Display:


Voter Disenfranchisement (2.00 / 20)

Sucks. Vote disenfranchisement on a massive scale is a crime against the Constitution.


Elect Hillary!
by owl06 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:25:03 AM EST

Re: Voter Disenfranchisement (2.00 / 8)

You'd think that we'd learn a few things from "hanging chads."


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:41:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Voter Disenfranchisement (none / 0)

No kidding.


by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:16:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I believe I read this same diary (2.00 / 3)

a month ago.  Also, see the million accurate rebuttals of why "disenfranchisement" is the wrong word.

And yeah, we know about the credentials committee and eventual floor vote on seating MI and FL.  Thing is, the decision is only relevant if Clinton is behind in total delegates (NOT including MI and FL) when the vote gets to the floor.  Which means that for them to be seated, a number of Obama delegates would have to effectively vote to hand the nomination over to Clinton.  How likely do you think that is?

Unless, of course, the Clinton campaign has been planning a "mole" strategy of running supporters as Obama delegates.  Which I'm not too worried about, as it would require the kind of careful planning her campaign has not exhibited so far.


by corph on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:46:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, you did. (2.00 / 2)

It's a cut-and-paste from a MyDD diary on 3/17.  And many of the statements in it are completely unsupported by the single document that is linked to.

It's as if using the <blockquote&rt; tag is enough to fool the overly credulous.


by McNasty on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:39:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Voter Disenfranchisement (2.00 / 2)

Yeah, voter disenfranchisement sucks. So, according to your True/False, this is the case:

Hillary should get all of her Florida/Michigan delegates according to the primaries already held.

Obama should get no delegates from Florida, and none of the "uncommitted" delegates from Michigan.

Any attempt at revoting would be voter disenfranchisement, even though the original votes disenfranchised Democrats who either didn't go to a primary they thought wouldn't count, or voted in Michigan's open Republican primary instead.

Oh, and I seem to remember Clinton having a press conference in Florida the morning of the Florida primary. She had just gotten off her plane and was standing in front of some palm trees. According to your rules, she shouldn't get any Florida delegates either.


unapologetic Obama supporter
by dantes on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:06:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Voter Disenfranchisement (2.00 / 3)

I also seem to recall..

her own campaign surrogates voting FOR the states' sanctions. She had more reps on the committee than any other candidate.


by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:14:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm going to start troll-rating these anti- (1.33 / 6)

Democratic comments.

the original votes disenfranchised Democrats who either didn't go to a primary they thought wouldn't count, or voted in Michigan's open Republican primary instead.

You cannot disenfranchise people who sat on their asses and hoped for the eventual possibility that a loophole would render their state's votes meaningless.  Its a bullshit if/come argument.  Anyone who really cared about electing Obama would have voted in the primary, and hoped their votes counted in the end.  They would not have stayed home and refrained from availing themselves of the right to vote that people have literally died for them to obtain.  This is especially true for Obama's biggest voting block - African Americans.  They didn't even have the right to vote in this country for some time.  They get the right to vote, and then refuse to exercise that dearly held and hard fought right - - - because of the possibility that a loophole might render their votes meaningless at some point in the future, or might not?

Fuck that.  All MyDD members are on notice.  Act like an anti-Democratic troll by spouting off that knowingly disingenuous argument just to score cheap points, and I will troll-rate you, regardless of the consequences to me.  

As an American voter in Michigan, even though I was aware of the controversy and the possibility that my vote would not count, I still left my office early for court and lost valuable billable time, drove out of my way to the polling station before going to court, and voted uncommitted, because I supported Edwards at the time.  And my vote should not count, because someone else didn't care enough about Obama to vote just in case it would count, like I did?  Moreover, although I was a happy member of Daily Kos at the time, I did not take Markos' advice and use my right to vote as a game to play against Republicans.  I voted uncommitted because that was the way to vote for John Edwards at the time, just like it was the way to vote for Obama at the time.  Just like nothing stopped me from voting uncommitted, nothing stopped any of you.  

Someone who was less committed to their candidate and more lazy than me should get the benefits, and someone who was more committed to their candidate and more willing to "waste" their time in a potentially meaningless primary should get screwed?  Fuck that.  

If you don't want to be troll-rated, don't act like trolls and spout that bullshit on this website anymore.  As someone who bothered to vote, I'm done with allowing that trollish behavior to stand.  


Kos: Obama made a [career] of attacking the left, from unions, to Krugman, to Gore, to social security. He's the return of Bill Clinton-style triangulating.
by PJ Jefferson on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:31:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nothing stopped them? (1.85 / 7)

The names we wanted to vote for were not on the ballot, and the election was declared invalid by one of the two major organizing bodies.

That's like an election in Romania.

I'm sorry you lost billable time in order to vote, but don't lose your perspective.


by McNasty on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:42:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nothing stopped them? (2.00 / 3)

Listen there is nothing fundementally unfair about a candidate taking their own name off a ballot

The candidate chose the action, the candidate understood the possible outcomes and was trying to game to an outcome that he liked.

Now that Michigan may be the deciding vote pulling his name and blocking revotes is starting to look like a major miscalculation...

You should have voted and written in your candidates name if need be.


by DTaylor on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:47:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nothing stopped them? (1.20 / 5)

Yes, Obama could have simply lied like Clinton instead and (just like she did) pledge not to participate and then go back on their pledge.


by Aris Katsaris on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 02:25:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

that is a blatant lie (2.00 / 2)


NC, a victory for the politics of division.
by TeresaInPa on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:27:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Um what? (2.00 / 1)

Are Clinton supporters so far removed from reality that they're simply denying Clinton ever made such a pledge?

What's the deal, Teresa?


by Aris Katsaris on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 05:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BTW: What is your position on those who don't vote (none / 0)

they are certain their candidate will either win or lose without their vote anyway, based on polling?  It is a documented fact that in every election in U.S. history, there are people who refrain from voting because they think they know how the result is going to unfold, and don't feel their vote is necessary. Should we invalidate any/all elections in U.S. history, because in each election, there have been voters who made the wrong decision by staying home?

What is your position on people who don't vote because because it is raining outside?  Should we invalidate all elections in which it can be proven that someone stayed home because they didn't want to get wet?

What is your position on people who don't vote because Republicans send them mailers saying a Tuesday vote is actually ocurring on Wednesday?  Should we invalidate the entire election if it can be proven that at least one voter did not vote based on bad advice?  

In accordance with the foregoing, it is clear that we should not invalidate primaries in which millions of people voted for their candidate, because of the ones who voted for Mitt because Markos Moulitsas told them to, or who stayed home because they were told their votes would not count?

The fact that you people want to throw out two entire primaries based on the people who did not vote is comparable to all of the above.  Yet, I don't hear you complain that all elections that have ever occurred in the United States of America should be set aside, because there is proof that someone did not vote, and now regrets THEIR MISTAKE.  


Kos: Obama made a [career] of attacking the left, from unions, to Krugman, to Gore, to social security. He's the return of Bill Clinton-style triangulating.
by PJ Jefferson on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:44:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What a fantastic response. (none / 0)

Emphasis on fantastic.

Blurring the difference between the illegitimate election in Michigan and depressed voter turnout because of rain is a new level of fiction for you.

Seating Michigan as-is results in what--86 for Hillary and 1 for Barack, I think?  If you think that's what we should do, you're a Republican.


by McNasty on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 05:36:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Voter Disenfranchisement (none / 0)

That's a complete lie. Hillary did not have a press conference in FL on the morning of the primary. She landed in FL after the polls closed. Don't spread these lies...it is typical BO crap to accuse Hillary of the crap he is doing. BO violated the rules, not Hillary.


by seattlegonz on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:06:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Whould that be why.. (1.00 / 1)

the "election" in MI, where Obama was not on the ballot and not a single vote has been counted for him, was in fact ruled unconstitutional?

Or does the Constitution not matter there?


by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:13:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Correction on Constitutionality (2.00 / 3)

The "election" wasn't ruled unconstitutional.  The provision whereby the public would have no access to the list of who voted was.  Under the rules the legislature set up for the primary, ONLY the Democratic and Republican parties would have access to the lists of who participated.  This was ruled unconstitutional because Michigan is a sunshine state and publicly funded things need to be covered under FOIA.

The ruling had nothing to do with the ballot, or with who was or wasn't on it.

The suggestion that Michigan's delegation should be seated as is is still ridiculous of course.  It just doesn't have anything to do with the court ruling you're talking about.

The "Does the constitution not matter there," crack is particularly pathetic.


by TooFolkGR on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:55:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Correction on Constitutionality (none / 0)

Got it, my bad.


by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 02:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Voter Disenfranchisement (2.00 / 2)

Love the tapdancing. So much to choose from. Let's start with:
THEREFORE, I (Hillary Clinton), Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules, pledge to actively campaign in the pre-approved early states Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina. I pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window (any date prior to February 5, 2008).
One might argue that just being on the ballot is a form of participation. She explained this with the following:
"I personally did not think ... uh ... whether my name was on the ballot ... uh ... it's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything.
So, intentional lie or hypocritical flip-flop? Either way she doesn't look good.
by Huck on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 02:09:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Voter Disenfranchisement (none / 0)

Can it be any friggin clearer?  Thanks Huck!!!


by SovSov on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:42:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Voter Disenfranchisement (none / 0)

I know, it's crazy, did you know not a single independent voter was allowed to vote in the PA primary last night.  I hear this sort of disenfranchisement has happened in a number of contests this primary season.  How dare we ignore the voices of such a large part of the electorate.


by matchles on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:07:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Voter Disenfranchisement (none / 0)

To those of us who understood and accepted the rules, before the first vote was counted, this new logic is insulting.  Clinton(s) were the strongest people in the Party when it was decided and remained mummmmmm.  When you fix a fight, you should do it better.  


by SovSov on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:36:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the Florida and Michigan delegations (2.00 / 10)

republicans disenfranchise voters- democrats win when every vote counts. it's time for democrats to start acting like democrats. it's just common sense.  

all the rationalizations and excuses are wearing thin as the clock ticks down. dean knows that the longer he holds this dead fish, the worse it will smell.


by campskunk on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:26:21 AM EST

Re: the Florida and Michigan delegations (2.00 / 7)

And that fish is rotting from the head downward.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:41:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the Florida and Michigan delegations (2.00 / 7)

something is 'fishy' about Dean.


Elect Hillary!
by owl06 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:46:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the Florida and Michigan delegations (2.00 / 1)

...and, that would be why anyone who wanted to vote Obama in MI, but dutifully voted "uncommitted" won't get counted at all?


by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:19:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Flo (2.00 / 8)

An argument can be made for Florida, but claiming Senator Clinton "won a decisive victory" in Michigan is just plain ludicrous....she was the only MAJOR candidate with her name on the ballot.


But not this year. Not this time. This year we can't afford the same old politics. Obama 4/18/08
by feliks on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:26:50 AM EST

Re: Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Flo (2.00 / 7)

Obama had his removed before the DNC ruled to penalize the State. Who's fault is that?


Elect Hillary!
by owl06 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:27:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Flo (2.00 / 1)

Still doesn't change the fact she won a flawed, specious victory in Michigan, not a decisive one


But not this year. Not this time. This year we can't afford the same old politics. Obama 4/18/08
by feliks on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:34:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Flo (2.00 / 4)

keyword: won.


Elect Hillary!
by owl06 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:36:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Flo (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, she totally pwned Mr. Uncommitted.


by username2 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:03:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Flo (none / 0)

by only 15%.


unapologetic Obama supporter
by dantes on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:07:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So Obama was, in fact, on the ballot!!!! (2.00 / 2)

Mr. Uncommitted is precisely the correct name for someone who voted present as frequently as he committed to a position on anything.  Thanks for the chuckle.  


by macmcd on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:17:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So Obama was, in fact, on the ballot!!!! (none / 0)

On the one hand, I'm tired of hearing that dishonest old talking point.

On the other hand, I would not have thought of that connection on my own, so I had to chuckle as well.  Kudos to you!


by username2 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 02:07:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So Obama was, in fact, on the ballot!!!! (none / 0)

129 present votes as I recall, only 7 accounted for by PP...so what about the other 122 or so? just forgot to vote or something?
by zerosumgame on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:31:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So Obama was, in fact, on the ballot!!!! (none / 0)

Just in case you're looking for an honest discussion...

Link?  My impression is that "uncommitted" is a parliamentary maneuver in IL, and basically all of his "uncommitted" votes were for parliamentary reasons.


by username2 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:43:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So Obama was, in fact, on the ballot!!!! (none / 0)

which would be just fine if he would detail those actions. maybe they were all in as good a cause as supporting PP, but in this vacuum of info he is not supplying just taking his word for it is not an option for me. after all look at all the fuss over taking his word about being a Christian ;p
by zerosumgame on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:47:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So Obama was, in fact, on the ballot!!!! (none / 0)

So you're saying the burden is on him to prove he's not a closet America-hating Muslim?  Sorry, not gonna buy that...


by username2 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:59:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Flo (none / 0)

Hey keep remembering that keyword.


by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:56:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

KUCINICH WON MICHIGAN! (none / 0)

Actually Clinton didn't win.  She pledeged not to participate.  People who don't participate in something cannot win it.  Kucinich won Michigan they were the only ones that didn't say they wouldn't participate, get over it.

Any delegates for a candidate that didn't participate, or uncommited candidate, should remain for uncommitted.  Woo them at the convention if they get seated at all.

Popular votes for Michigan:

(checkmark) Kucinich : 21,715 votes 3.7%
Gravel: 2,361 votes 0.4%
Uncommited: 566,437 Votes 95.3%

I thought Gravel had a chance at this thing, but Kucinich really put it away.  The demographics were really much more in his corner.


by Why Not on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:17:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: KUCINICH WON MICHIGAN! (none / 0)

and she didn't participate. But unlike you and BHO she has no problem with the VOTERS participating...
by zerosumgame on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:33:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: a history lesson from Michigan (2.00 / 5)

Were you in MI? Obviously not, or you would know that Obama supporters in Michigan ran radio, tv and internet and newspaper ads to get voters to vote uncommitted. If you want I can post the links. It was well covered here on the news and the blogs. MI Democratic voters, particularly Obama supporters knew that they should vote uncommitted for there candidate. Unfortunately, some of them decided to be cute and follow Markos suggestion to vote in the Republican primary instead. Now they have remorse. But the vote Uncommitted was well advertised here before the primary. It was flawed because people squandered their votes by following the suggestions of someone who doesn't live in the state.


What would Eleanor Roosevelt do?
by ricardo4 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:00:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: a history lesson from Michigan (none / 0)

Were you in Florida when this was being decided...?  I mean the penalties not the primary....

I was and did what I could to avert this...  but the state party held fast to the idea that the primary should be moved up... and then incurred the penalty of not having the delegates seated... which was threatened before it was decided....

And my votes counted... and I was able to vote... so I was not disenfranchised.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:25:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: a history lesson from Michigan (none / 0)

Yeah. I was there. And we were told the election wouldn't count. Period. End of story.

And then the MI court ruled the election unconstitutional. Period. End of story.


by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:55:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why Do People Keep Repeating This Nonsense (none / 0)

And then the MI court ruled the election unconstitutional. Period. End of story.

That ruling had nothing to do with the outcome of the election, nor did it void the results of that election.  The ruling said that the provision of the election whereby the public would not have access to the lists of who voted was unconstitutional.

The primary should not have counted (and it won't).  But you don't need to go around saying stupid lies to make that true.


by TooFolkGR on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:00:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why Do People Keep Repeating This Nonsense (none / 0)

Then I was misinformed, which seemed to happen a lot in Michigan this year. Thanks for clearing it up.

And for being so nice about it.


by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:09:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My Apologies (2.00 / 1)

I was taking my cues from the overall tone of this thread.  I have no specific issue with you and I wasn't going out of my way to be a jackhole.


by TooFolkGR on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:26:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Apologies (none / 0)

S'ok. I hate to go around spouting something at the top of my lungs that's inaccurate (unless it's personal measurements ;).

Tips for the use of "jackhole."


by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 02:24:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It makes no difference what the ads said (none / 0)

A vote for "Uncommitted" was a vote for "Uncommitted," not Obama.  

Our primary was fatally flawed, and it was our own doing.


by TooFolkGR on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:58:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The talking point now is.. (none / 0)

that we should have known to "write-in" Obama in that election we were told would not be counted towards the nomination.


by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:10:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well That's a Silly Talking Point (2.00 / 1)

Our primary does not allow for write-in votes.


by TooFolkGR on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:25:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well That's a Silly Talking Point (none / 0)

I didn't think so! I didn't recall seeing any such opportunity. Okay, one less thing to feel bad about.


by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 02:20:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It makes no difference what the ads said (none / 0)

Again we are talking about what the rules say and what they don't say. According to the DNC rules that Obama constantly invokes, telling your supporters how to vote is considered campaigning.
That's the rules. Obama broke them.
Jon Winkleman
by Jon Winkleman on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:42:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Flo (2.00 / 5)

Despite the best efforts of Obama supporters, they were not able to embarrass Hillary Clinton by having her lose in MI to "uncommitted" as I'm sure was their intent.  We weren't all born yesterday - she probably got a few extra votes, because people don't like that kind of mean spiritedness (sp?).


by AnnC on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:07:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Flo (none / 0)

And Romney beat McCain... due in part to the efforts of the netroots to get Dem voters to support him....


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:26:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Flo (2.00 / 0)

Thank you markos for that brilliant move.

</snark>


Until recently I was selling drugs, and now I'm selling Obama T-shirts.
by switching sides on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:08:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not Sure How That is Snark? (2.00 / 1)

It didn't end up having much impact.  Do you think the Democratic party would have been better off somehow if McCain had won Michigan?


by TooFolkGR on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:01:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Sure How That is Snark? (none / 0)

The impact that it had was in giving Rush LImbaugh the idea (and the moral excuse) for gaming OUR primary.

Get it?  

Oh, and THANKS FOR THE TR"S!!!

:)


Until recently I was selling drugs, and now I'm selling Obama T-shirts.
by switching sides on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 02:51:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Flo (2.00 / 0)

Not only that Obama and others removed their names from the ballot in Michigan to pander to Iowa.


by rocky on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:55:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Flo (none / 0)

And tell me again why Clinton's surrogates voted on the rules committee to sanction MI and FL, and agree to abide by those sanctions?


by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:58:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Flo (none / 0)

Actually, they removed them because the agreement required them not to participate. Don't you think being on the ballot is participation? Obama certainly did. Edwards certainly did. Hillary just insisted the results wouldn't count, so it didn't matter if she didn't remove her name.
by Huck on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:15:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yes, I have two brothers in MI (2.00 / 0)

and that is exactly what the campaign was about.  They told me so.  
The Obama folk are also campaigning to make sure there is no recount and that the existing votes do no count.
NC, a victory for the politics of division.
by TeresaInPa on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:52:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She won Michigan; Obama lost Michigan. (none / 0)

I used to agree with your position on Michigan, but I've learned a few things since then.  The fact is that Obama and Edwards took their names off the Michigan ballot as a strategy to game the system and win favor in Iowa.  That was their choice.  No rule required it.  Now, Obama does not want to live with the consequences, so his team is trying to fool the public about what the rules are.

You should ask yourself if we really want a candidate who has to have so many breaks to win the nomination.  We are supposed to throw out millions of valid votes in Florida and Michigan to help him; he has a biased press pushing his candidacy but he still can't close the deal; he whines when he gets a hard question once a month while being silent or piling on while HRC is trashed by the press; with a 3-to-1 money advantage he still loses Penn. by 10 points; he's lost all the critical Dem. states but the one he lives in.  Most of the delegates he does have come from states where a single vote counts for more in delegates than it does in more populous states -- in other words, overstating his victories.  This is your candidate????  You must want to lose in November.


by PlainWords on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 02:16:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She won Michigan; Obama lost Michigan. (none / 0)

"That was their choice. "

The word 'participate' certainly seems to mean a different thing to Clinton supporters than it does to the rest of the English-speaking world.


by Aris Katsaris on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:03:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Flo (none / 0)

OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I see. It's not a "fairness to the voters" argument. It's a "too, bad, he have known" argument.

Then, MI and FL won't be counted, because their own elected representatives violated the rules. Too bad, they should have known.


by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:21:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Flo (2.00 / 1)

Even though that's true, what do you think about the fact that Obama and Edwards intentionally and voluntarily removed their names for strategic purposes?  And that they were able to profit from that in Iowa, at Hillary's expense?  Whose fault is that?

Nobody forced them to remove their names.  The DNC Rules which state that the final decision on delegate seating is made at the Convention were fully in place at the time they made that decision, so they had full knowledge of the potential consequences of their decision.


by Trickster on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:55:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Flo (1.00 / 1)

They removed their names so that a bogus election that voters were told would not count, would not become a bait-and-switch and "made to count" later.

And sure enough, that election was ruled unconstitutional.


by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:01:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, They Didn't (none / 0)

They removed their names because they signed a pledge that said they wouldn't participate in a primary or caucus before 2/5 except in NH, SC, NV, and IA.  It had nothing to do with people coming back later and saying MI should have counted.


by TooFolkGR on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:02:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talking Points Memo: Rules provide for the Flo (2.00 / 1)

"""And sure enough, that election was ruled unconstitutional."""

Holy shee-it.  This is not an election.  It's a primary.

Thus, its rules are not covered by the constitution.

Therefore, nothing was ruled unconstitutional.

ffs


Until recently I was selling drugs, and now I'm selling Obama T-shirts.
by switching sides on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 02:55:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A Diary Well Needed (2.00 / 8)

People are so unaware that the DNC rules allow for one-half of the Florida and Michigan delegates to be seated. In addition, Hillary has the right to seek reinstatement of all of the delegates at the Convention, and she should.

Great job! Nice Diary.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:27:52 AM EST

Re: A Diary Well Needed (2.00 / 3)

Not only do the rules allow for half the delegates to be seated (in fact that was the mandatory penalty) the rules also allow for the penalty to be lifted entirely if they should see fit.

They can, within the rules, seat the delegations in full. It is within their discretion.


by americanincanada on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:13:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Who'se they? (none / 0)

The only correct answer is the rest of the delegates, pledged and super.  This MI-FL flap only matters to the outcome if Clinton is behind in total delegates by less than the margins she got from the sham elections.  Which means Obama delegates would have the majority vote on the ultimate decision to seat MI and FL.

Do you see why this line of argument is an exercise in futility now?


by corph on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:06:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course she does. (2.00 / 0)

I can hardly blame her for trying.  Thing is, she's not going to get them seated.


by corph on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:48:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Of course she does. (2.00 / 1)

And you are...um, nostradamus?


Until recently I was selling drugs, and now I'm selling Obama T-shirts.
by switching sides on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I can predict obvious vote outcomes (none / 0)

Do you think it's up to random chance?  Obama delegates would have to vote against their own candidate for them to be seated in any scenario where their vote would matter.

Yeah, I have a gift all right.


by corph on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:05:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

omg (none / 0)

Such arrogance.  

Is your head tilted back?

Are we looking up your nose?


Until recently I was selling drugs, and now I'm selling Obama T-shirts.
by switching sides on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 02:58:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I guess sometimes the obvious (none / 0)

is not so to the unfamiliar with convention rules and the childish.

Are you 12 years old?


by corph on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:01:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They'll be seated. (none / 0)

But they won't participate in choosing the nominee. Like most states after Super Tuesday generally don't.


by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:02:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I just noticed this whopper (none / 0)

"From the beginning of the Florida controversy, Hillary has consistently stated that if she wins, meaning securing 50% + 1 of the total delegates, she will reinstate the Florida and Michigan delegation at the convention if the DNC fails to resolve the problem on their own before such time."

So the implication is that Senator Clinton would only count the Florida votes if SHE won???They wouldn't count, according to this statement if someone else won??

HHMMMM


But not this year. Not this time. This year we can't afford the same old politics. Obama 4/18/08
by feliks on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:29:49 AM EST

Unlike Obama (2.00 / 5)

Clinton will seat all the delegates no matter what, and if she is not the nominee she will still insist on seating the delegates.

Obama will only seat delegates if he is assured of a win....and as can be seen from this diary, he can't claim "rules" require this.


by 4justice on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:33:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unlike Obama (2.00 / 0)

That argument is self-contradictory.


by rfahey22 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:37:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unlike Obama (none / 0)

No crap...It only helps her


"McCain thinks you're a f***ing idiot. That's why he thinks you'll vote for him."
by hootie4170 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:01:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just noticed this whopper (2.00 / 1)

Actually, Obama said the same thing (at the "illegal" press conference he held in Florida last September).

Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.


by skohayes on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:40:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just noticed this whopper (2.00 / 5)

link


Obama Vows To 'Do What's Right'

TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

Obama also appeared to violate a pledge he and the other leading candidates took by holding a brief news conference outside the fundraiser. That was less than a day after the pledge took effect Saturday, and Obama is the first Democratic presidential candidate to visit Florida since then.

Obama and others have pledged not to campaign in Florida until the Jan. 29 primary except for fundraising, which is what he was doing in Tampa.

But after the fundraiser at the Hyde Park home of Tom and Linda Scarritt, Obama crossed the street to take half a dozen questions from reporters waiting there.

The pledge covers anything referred to in Democratic National Committee rules as "campaigning," and those include "holding news conferences."

Obama seemed unaware the pledge he signed prohibits news conferences. Asked whether he was violating it, he said, "I was just doing you guys a favor. ... If that's the case, then we won't do it again."

"This wasn't planned," Sanchez said of the brief press availability. "He was going to the car, and he just went across the street for a moment."

According to Sanchez and Tom Scarritt, Obama was asked during the event about making sure Floridians have a role in the nomination, despite the DNC sanctions and the pledge. Scarritt said Obama responded that he'll "do what's right by Florida voters."

looks like this vow was about as sincere as his promise to take federal campaign money.


by campskunk on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:54:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just noticed this whopper (2.00 / 5)

There seems to be a pattern forming with his promises...


Elect Hillary!
by owl06 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:59:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

obama is political kryptonite in FL. (2.00 / 3)

he's losing to mccain by 11.7% - hillary's within half a percent. look at the RCP results here and  here. i guess we're dead to him. he knows that he'll lose FL if he gets the nomination, no matter what he does re: seating the delegates.

the SUSA poll crosstabs right before the FL primary showed him getting nine percent (yes, NINE PERCENT) among hispanics and old (65+)people. take away the hispanics and old people, and FL looks like wyoming, except with alligators.


by campskunk on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:10:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: obama is political kryptonite in FL. (2.00 / 1)

Florida is not going blue this year...

There is a popular GOP Governor who may be tapped for veep by McCain and there is an anti gay marriage amendment on the ballot....

The legislature is in the hand of the GOP, so who knows what other measures they will add...

And those Hispanics and old people will likely get crumbs tossed their way to lure them away from whatever Dem we nominate... even Hillary.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:30:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: obama is political kryptonite in FL. (2.00 / 0)

It won't go blue if Obama runs, because he alienated the Cuban community.


Elect Hillary!
by owl06 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:50:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: obama is political kryptonite in FL. (none / 0)

It won't go blue regardless...  We could nominate Santa and it would be an uphill battle....


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:06:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: obama is political kryptonite in FL. (2.00 / 1)

even if that is the case, I want a candidate that actually has a shot.


Elect Hillary!
by owl06 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:08:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: obama is political kryptonite in FL. (2.00 / 1)

So, even if he leads by every metric available, you would still want Clinton to be the nominee because of Florida....?  Which is an uphill battle regardless...?


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: obama is political kryptonite in FL. (none / 0)

he's losing the popular vote and has lost in every delegate rich state except for IL. how is that winning?


Elect Hillary!
by owl06 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:24:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: obama is political kryptonite in FL. (none / 0)

Screw the Cuban community,  or at least the portion you're talking about. I'm sorry but I grew up with them and the Cuba Libre people are nutballs, they've basically had veto power over our foriegn policy for the last half-cntury and its time for that to change, for god's sake these people think their plantations are coming back when Castro dies. Oh, and in a bit of Clarification Hillary would get slaughtered in the Cuban vote, they love McCain for being martyerd by the commies, and Hill hasn't been hit by the ad that would basically given McCain their votes at a 9-1 margin-- Elian, over and over again-- he's the Horst wessel of the Cuba Libre crowd.


by Socraticsilence on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:03:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

public financing (2.00 / 1)

Camp - what is the whole story on Obama and McCain on public financing?
Didn't Obama say he would take it for the general if the Repub did?
What are their positions now?
by JoseyJ on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:07:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: public financing (none / 0)

He said he would discuss the matter with the GOP nominee, but that they had to figure out the roles of the 527's in order to make it work...

Saying he "pledged" to do it is a GOP talkingpoint...


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:31:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: public financing (none / 0)

OK - but now I remember - did Obama sign something?


by JoseyJ on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:55:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: public financing (2.00 / 1)

It was a questionnaire...

From WaPO...

"Last February, lawyers for Obama asked the Federal Election Commission if the campaign could raise funds for the general election but retain the option of returning to the public finance system. When the FEC gave its permission, an Obama spokesman said the candidate would "aggressively pursue an agreement with the Republican nominee to preserve a publicly financed general election."

Answering a questionnaire in September 2007 by the Midwest Democracy Network, Obama said he would forgo private funding in the general election, adding he had "proposed a novel way to preserve the strength of the public financing system in the 2008 election."

In recent weeks, however, Obama has suggested he has not made up his mind on whether to opt out of the public financing system. In an op-ed in USA Today, Obama wrote today that if he is the Democratic nominee he "will aggressively pursue" a policy with his opponent for a "publicly funded general election in 2008 with real spending limits," but made clear that he thinks a new agreement is needed."


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:05:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just noticed this whopper (2.00 / 1)

I think the implication was that she would attempt to do it whether she was the nominee or not.  If she was the nominee, she could pretty much guaruntee success...


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:57:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just noticed this whopper (2.00 / 0)

Under normal circumstances, the nominee controls the Convention, including delegate-seating.  There have been numerous delegate-seating controversies in the past, and the nominee always prevailed, sometimes (e.g., 1972 and 1980 Democratic conventions) by hard-ball power plays based on numbers of delegates committed.


by Trickster on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:58:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just noticed this whopper (none / 0)

She would only have the power to seat them if she won, dummy.


by TooFolkGR on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:03:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just noticed this whopper (2.00 / 1)

Once a candidate wins the primary, that is secures 50% plus 1 delegates they then control the convention and also control the decisions of the credentials committee.

Hillary said from the beginning that iof she wins and therefore has the power to seat Florida she will if the DNC doesn't.

If Hillary does not secure 50% plus 1 of the delegates the rules prevent her (or Obama) from being able to seat the delegates by their own executive order.

Before the first contest was held Hillary has consistently stated that those conflicts need to be resolved whether it be by the DNC and the state party or failing that, by the winner of the primary.
Jon Winkleman


Jon Winkleman
by Jon Winkleman on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:39:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Excellent and informative (2.00 / 7)

not only will I hot list this, but I will, with your permission site this post on the other sites I contribute to.

The more clarity we have on these rules and where w