PA on the verge

Three polls out: Zogby, ARG, M-D.

I won't get into their specific findings, they average out as a Clinton with a 49-42 percent lead with 9 percent undecided.

Obama's big problem is that he's ending with an even lower final numbers than he had at the end of Ohio's polling, and Clinton's problem is she's not yet showing numbers consistently above 50 percent as she did in Ohio. There's one or two more days of poll results to come out, most importantly, if we get them, a final round of SUSA polling.

In previous cycles, I thought highly of Zogby's final polling, but he's really blown a number of high profile races this year, wildly over-sampling Obama supporters, to show Obama leading by 13 percent, when the final outcome showed Clinton up by 9 percent (his excuse was that Obama's AA vote didn't materialize).

But its probably more important to look at more recent polling examples, because as the primaries proceed, the pollsters learn and adjust their samples. In Ohio and Texas, Zogby did much better. He nailed Texas exactly, and at least caught that the undecideds had moved away from Obama, if not catching that they went to Clinton. Likewise, ARG, which has blown some races, did well in Texas (exact) and Ohio (off by 4%). Survey. Mason-Dixon did OK in Ohio, pegging Obama at 43, but under-polling Clinton by 6 percent, and missed Texas by just 4 percent, calling it by 1 for Obama (as did SUSA). The point of all this being, that later polling has shown an improved Zogby, and dare I say it, ARG too.

Zogby has a one-day polling sample for Sunday that would blow some eyes open, showing Clinton with a 53-38 percent lead, which translated into Clinton having a 5-day tracking lead of 48-42. Basically, "if white and Catholic voters, who still are the
biggest portion of undecideds, actually vote, Clinton will have her double-digit victory."

ARG shows a chasm among polling for white and black voters, the white vote going 63-32 for Clinton, and the black vote going 86-12 for Obama. Their 11 percent Clinton lead would solidly shake this race up in its last two months, if that is the final tally (the gender turnout is most likely going to be greater than their M-W 45-55 projection which is also the case for M-D).

Obama's had a lot more time to campaign against Clinton in PA, where he started with a large deficit. And even though he's outspent Clinton by 3:1 or 4:1, and had the opportunity to target Democratic voters for 7 complete weeks, Obama doesn't look like he's on the verge of even coming close to sealing the deal through Pennsylvania. The betting, at this point, seems whether its high single-digit margin, or a 10 percent or greater blowout by Clinton.



Display:


Penn's always been a Hillary state. (2.00 / 1)

She'll win it, then it's on to North Carolina, Indiana, and Oregon.  Things're finally winding down.


John McCain: He flunked ECON 101.
by Shem on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:23:37 PM EST

Re: Penn's always been a Hillary state. (none / 0)

And Philly's an Obama city. Mark my words. He's got several offices in town and my Mom got her GOTV door knock just today.

She also mentioned she was outside gardening a couple weeks ago and a Hillary person came through and couldn't answer any of her questions. She said it must've been a street money guy.

My mom is a white person over 60 who lives in a mostly black, middle class neighborhood. She was undecided until Obama's race speech. The white liberal is often the swing voter in Philly- people who voted for Katz in '01 and Street in '05.

I see that group breaking for Obama, and in a big way because of his organization. It won't be enough to put him over the top, but could be enough to surprise us.


by davefordemocracy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:45:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Penn's always been a Hillary state. (none / 0)

Philly has always been for Obama, just as Western, T-area and NE has always been for Hillary.

The battle will be how close she can keep it in Philly's surrounding counties i.e Buck, Delaware etc.


by shark on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:10:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Penn's always been a Hillary state. (none / 0)

I just hope that the folks voting for Clinton understand that she can no longer win the nomination.  Hopefully the Clinton folk don't try to overturn the voting public and everything is settled when the last voting occurs in June.

It's funny really.  It's sort of like the whole McCain/Huckabee situation where everyone was wondering why there was such a large percent of the Republican voting public still voting for Huckabee even though he could no longer win.

Oh well, they'll come around once Obama is our nominee, just as the Republicans eventually came around (or will continue to) once McCain became the official nominee.


by RussTC3 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:23:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Penn's always been a Hillary state. (none / 0)

Please explain how he can and she can't. For one thing, if there's no revote, Obama's an illegitimate candidate and thus damaged goods. Second, in case anyone hasn't been paying attention, the AP is reporting today that many undecided SD are more concerned with winning in November than who won what during the primaries. Looking at the cold hard GE electoral numbers, Hillary fares much better than Obama, who is at best a huge roll of the dice.

Please keep in mind that Hillary is the choice of the Democratic base. Obama would be long gone if we were selecting a nominee under the same closed system as the GOP does.


by SoCalHillMan on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:46:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Penn's always been a Hillary state. (none / 0)

It all comes down to this:

1) He'll have the popular vote lead by the time everything ends (this includes Florida AND Michigan and it's an even larger margin of victory when you include the caucuses).

2) He'll have won more states/territories.

3) He'll have more pledged delegates.

There is no way in hell the superdelegates are going to break for Hillary should the above three situations end up happening.

She has no chance on winning on pledged delegates or on states/territories.

If she wanted to win, she shouldn't have ignored all those contests early on and go on a 12 contest losing streak.


by RussTC3 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:00:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The most important thing is that we (none / 0)

let this play out to the DNC convention at the end of August. The health of the Party and the future of our Congressional races pale as compared to the importance of returning the Clintons to the White House....


Clinton Democrats care about the same things I do, most importantly beating John McCain.
by TrueBlueCT on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:52:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The most important thing is that we (none / 0)

No.  The contest ends in June when the final voting occurs.

I'm sorry, but the superdelegates shouldn't have any more power than the public.  If it's not decided until the convention that means we're giving more power to the supers.

We were already screwed over by the electoral college in 2000.  It would be beyond stupid if the Democratic party was responsible for creating a similar situation.


by RussTC3 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 12:43:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The most important thing is that we (none / 0)

I thought that the Super delegates were there to  change things if the people have chosen wrong.  For instance, what if a week before the election we find out that Obama's been hiding a mistress or that he is still doing cocaine.  The Super Delegates could then change the convention for Hillary.  If they didn't have the power to change everything because they think it best for the win in November, there would be no need for super delegates.  If they think the people have voted poorly, for someone who cannot win in November, they are obligated to turn it around.  


by SueBee on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 02:50:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Penn's always been a Hillary state. (none / 0)

I want Clinton to lose, but (1) is not a given.

If you include FL, Clinton will probably win the popular vote.  With Michigan (and uncommitted going to Obama), she will almost certainly win the popular vote as long as she doesn't lose NC by more than 20%


by reggie44pride on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 01:35:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Penn's always been a Hillary state. (2.00 / 1)

"Please keep in mind that Hillary is the choice of the Democratic base"

She is the choice of only part of the Democratic base.  African Americans and educated liberals comprise a big chunk of that base too.  If she were the "choice of the Democratic base" she would be winning.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:23:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Penn's always been a Hillary state. (2.00 / 2)

"Obama's an illegitimate candidate and thus damaged goods."

Just because you post it on the internet, does not make it true.

That "illegitimate candidate" is going to be the next President of the United States.


Support the separation of Church and State: Vote YES on WA R-71!
by WashStateBlue on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:40:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Penn's always been a Hillary state. (none / 0)

If they're looking at electability, I'm guessing they won't be too thrilled by a candidate with a 56% unfavourable rating, even higher untrustworthy rating, who is getting beaten by every possible metric, including fundraising and voter enthusiasm.  Seems a nobrainer to me.


by interestedbystander on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:38:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Penn's always been a Hillary state. (none / 0)

Where she will get beaten and you are right... it will probably be over.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:26:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If you are going to vouch for Zogby (2.00 / 1)

based on their 3/4 results, please give PPP more credit.  The comibned error of Zogby on 3/4 was 10 points/  PPP was the best in the field with 3 points (2 in TX and 1 in OH).


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:23:58 PM EST

Re: If you are going to vouch for Zogby (2.00 / 1)

"vouch" is a little bit too associated!!  Anyway, PPP, hopefully they give numbers out closer than a week out.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:26:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you are going to vouch for Zogby (none / 0)

Jerome, the fact that you're using ARG automatically takes away from any argument you could possibly have with these polls. In any case, Clinton can't get enough delegates out of Pennsylvania to put a dent in Obama's lead. And if we're talking about Obama being unable to seal the deal against Clinton in her stronghold, the same applies (to a greater extent) to Clinton concerning Obama's base. Thus even following that insane logic, Obama's in a far better position.


by TheNewMexican on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:33:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They have a poll out (2.00 / 1)

tommorow, along with most of the polling world it seems.  I am a fan of thiers due to their adjustments to their voter screen and they have been really accurate where they poll since that.  Also since they do a lot of NC polling as they are based there, I'd trust their NC numbers to be almost exact.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you are going to vouch for Zogby (none / 0)

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?dia ryId=5234

Chris is right... She is gonna need close to 70% of SDs remaining to win.  


by yitbos96bb on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:28:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you are going to vouch for Zogby (none / 0)

Shhh...  Reality based thinking.  


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:49:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you are going to vouch for Zogby (2.00 / 1)

yea, and only 48 states allowed!


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:28:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you are going to vouch for Zogby (none / 0)

Actually the whole point of Chris' post is an analysis of the delegate count which includes the FA and MI delegates as they are likely to stand:


So, in all likelihood, Obama will win 36 of the uncommitted delegates from Michigan on Saturday, and then win the remaining 19 at the Michigan state convention on May 17th. Michigan will then have a pledged delegate breakdown of Clinton 73-55 Obama. Everyone knows that Michigan will have a delegation seated at the convention, and the 73-55 looks like the only option right now. In the same vein, Florida's delegation will almost certainly be Clinton 105, Obama 67, and Edwards 13. For all the wrangling and arguments over Michigan and Florida, the deal will just end up being what I proposed from the beginning: seat Florida as is, and give Obama Michigan's 55 uncommitted delegates.

Chris Bowers - Time To Start Counting Delegates Again Open Left 18 Apr 08

He goes on to table the results and then do some crystal ball gazing at upcoming primaries.  His conclusion is that Hillary will still need 70% of uncommitted superdelegates.  I would be interested in your comments, actually, he makes a pretty reasonable case.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:50:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you are going to vouch for Zogby (none / 0)

73 is very optimistic for Obama.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:32:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you are going to vouch for Zogby (none / 0)

Jerome, after enough supers have come out for Obama, including those that cross from the Clinton camp to put him over the top (like Maria Cantwell from my state)THEY WILL seat Florida and Michigan as is.....then WHAT will the Clinton supporters say?

Though, I would love to have a "Michigan hearts Uncommitted" banner as a collectors item?


Support the separation of Church and State: Vote YES on WA R-71!
by WashStateBlue on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:46:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This only "illegitimate" victory thing (none / 0)

is a sure path to a President McCain.

For love of Party, please, please stop.

Team Obama out-raised and out-manuevered Team Clinton, all within the rules. Isn't that enough?


Clinton Democrats care about the same things I do, most importantly beating John McCain.
by TrueBlueCT on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:54:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

14 % (none / 0)

based on demographics..that is the only poll that has mattered since SC


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:25:04 PM EST

Yeah I agree with you there (none / 0)

SS.  However I'll trust PPP based on recent history going back to SC.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:44:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Clinton by 12.  Any margin lower than that will be a pleasant surprise.


by rfahey22 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:28:10 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (2.00 / 2)

What's surprising is that Obama isn't even remotely close to winning here, despite the tremendous amount of money and time he's spend wooing voters.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:37:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (2.00 / 1)

It's not surprising.  The Clinton family has ties in the state and she has the political machine on her side, not to mention the proximity to New York.  Assuming that an ad air war is going to win the battle is borderline Rumsfeldian.


by rfahey22 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:47:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

She had the majority of the state's politicians and decades of name recognition on her side. He needed to cut her lead and build infrastructure for the general election. He spent very intelligently for that strategy, unless you could suggest a better approach?


by noop on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:49:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Whats surprising is that you keep going with this tired dialog despite the fact that everyone INCLUDING Obama and his team knew he was unlikely to beat Hillary in PA. It is essentially home turf for her.

What isn't surprising is that you will try and use this as evidence that Obama can't win PA in November since obviously anyone who votes for Clinton now is clearly voting for McCain in November; thats what you think isn't it?


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:31:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Its the demographics.  Clinton spent a ton of money on Iowa and ended up with close to the same deficit that Obama will likely have in PA--and that was with a bunch of other people in the race to dilute Obama's support.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:28:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (2.00 / 1)

If he holds her to a single-digit win I would be amazed.  There was an excellent front-page analysis in March here, county-by-county, of the Pennsylvania demographics in respect of the Ohio results that pretty convincingly dissuaded me from any expectations of an Obama victory under any circumstances.  Frankly if Obama pulls this one to within single-digits it will be nothing short of a miracle and a convincing effort to anyone who is intimately familiar with the specific challenge he faces there.

The fact that his campaign has invested so heavily in Pennsylvania is a testimony to his daring and willingness to fight for every delegate, there must have been some dissent in his campaign.  I kinda' admire him for this effort but have no illusions about his chances of outright victory.

If he, by some fluke, keeps her within less than 6% I reckon she's truly doomed but I sincerely doubt he will be able to achieve anything like that.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:31:00 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Yes, I agre

Thank you for linking to that FP diary..that is what I was thinking of when I suggested 14% (that, and all the SUSA polls so far have been in that range).

And, in other news...

Dewey defeats Truman


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:33:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Yeah, that diary was awesome.  I would like to see more analysis from the same author.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:38:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

It's also the case that between Wright and the  debate this week, this has been Obama's worst stretch of the campaign.  

I don't see how Clinton winning PA by 10, Indiana being very close, and Obama winning NC by 10-20 points really changes the race all that much.  Perhaps, I'm just stuck on that math thing.


by tom32182 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:33:25 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (2.00 / 2)

Given the demographics of PA, if Obama can't carry this state given all the resources he's thrown at it, he won't win the General if he's our nominee.

Obama's had a lot more time to campaign against Clinton in PA, where he started with a large deficit. And even though he's outspent Clinton by 3:1 or 4:1, and had the opportunity to target Democratic voters for 7 complete weeks, Obama doesn't look like he's on the verge of even coming close to sealing the deal through Pennsylvania.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:34:11 PM EST

Yeah, right. (none / 0)

And because Huckabee beat McCain in the South, McCain won't win there in the general.


John McCain: He flunked ECON 101.
by Shem on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:36:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, right. (2.00 / 1)

I don't think McCain is particularly strong in the South, and Huckabee certainly exposed this weakness.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:42:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, right. (none / 0)

McCain will win the south without problem, much like either Democrat will win the Northeast without any problem.


by TheNewMexican on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:44:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, right. (2.00 / 1)

Except for New Hampshire, probably.  They are the black sheep of New England.  

(waits for some kind of "race-baiting" claim)


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:47:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, right. (none / 0)

Obama would easily win New Hampshire, Clinton, on the other hand, probably wouldn't. That's based on multiple polling, it's one of the states with the largest discrepencies between Obama and Clinton compared to McCain.


by TheNewMexican on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:58:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, right. (none / 0)

Well, NH is pretty pissed at Clinton for her stand re: FL and MI.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:17:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, right. (2.00 / 1)

Having lived in NH for the better part of a decade, I can easily attest the state will go for Hillary should she be the Dem nominee, or McCain if she isn't.

And for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with race.


by SoCalHillMan on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:38:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, right. (none / 0)

NH is changing politically.  Its potentially one of the places that the Bush presidency is causing a major shift.  It had been GOP largely as a reaction to MA (to be honest, NH seems to suffer a bit from little brother syndrome as it regards to MA).  In 06, both GOP Congressmen got booted, the state legislature became Dem controlled (and not by a very small margin) for the first time in generations and the Dem governor is very popular.  Incumbent Senator Sununu is behind by ~15%.  Its definitely a state that could go true blue.


McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.
by PantsB on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 11:21:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Great. You just proved Obama will win the south. (none / 0)


by OhPlease on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Wow... so in other words, Senator Clinton won't be able to carry Illinois, Hawaii, Delaware, or Connecticut in the general election then...

And that's it for your idiotic logic.


by TheNewMexican on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:36:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (2.00 / 2)

Since she won't be the nominee, you are right... she won't carry them.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:40:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (2.00 / 2)

This election isn't in a vacuum. Primaries and Generals are two different beasts. You learn this in lower-division POSC.

Wait until McCain gets torn apart by the Soros machine.


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:37:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (2.00 / 3)

Show me how Obama wins over PA voters in the GE if he can't win them over in the primary, despite using everything in his arsenal. Like it or not, PA represents a HUGE U.S. demographic of folks hurting economically who typically vote democratic.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:46:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (2.00 / 1)

The same way McCain wins over hard-right Southerners that voted for Chuckabee.

We WILL KUMBAYA in Denver.


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:49:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

This is idiotic thinking, much like McGovern supporters voiced back in '72 - or Humphrey supporters back in '68, for that matter - and we all know how that turned out.


by SoCalHillMan on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:40:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, party unity after a series of primaries.

CUH-RAZY! Don't you know we should carry long-term resentment!? Who coalesces around a winner anymore. That's so 1787-2007.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 01:13:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Or Clinton in 1992 when he lost all but Maine in New England?

But then I suppose you believe HRC is a lock in Texas because she won the primary portion of the Texas delegation process?


McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.
by PantsB on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 11:25:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Could you show us some evidence that performance in the primary = performance in the General Election?


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Uh... I suppose that means that Hillary Clinton is doomed to never get over 20% of African Americans. The logic stinks, and you know it.


by TheNewMexican on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:48:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She only gets 50% AA support in General (none / 0)

Anywhoo, nothing to worry about since she won't be the nominee.  I was out canvassing in Philly today and the field directors seemed rather upbeat for Obama's chances.  I don't know but it seems like there could be an upset.

The most interesting thing is that the Obama folks have registered a TON of high school students in the AA areas of philly. Also, ex-cons can vote in PA.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was an upset.


by regina1983 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:55:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

There really isn't a correlation between performance in a primary and performance in a general election.  Since by and large Clinton supporters tend to be registered democrats (and since PA has a closed primary) these results are pretty consistent with the pattern in other states -- Obama tends to win african americans, independents and highly educated white voters, and Clinton wins lower income registered dems -- it's harder for Obama to win in PA because the independents and registered republicans he appeals to are not allowed to vote there.  Clinton's base (registered democrats) actually would seem much easier to get to move toward a democratic nominee than Obama's base of african americans (who at this point are going to feel robbed if Clinton convinced the superdelegates to take the election from the pledged delegate leader) and independents (who have a more negative view of Clinton than of Obama.)  


by Headlight on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:44:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

If you want to talk about voters feeling "robbed," talk to Ted Kennedy, John Kerry and Bill Richardson, who are "robbing" the voters in their state by NOT supporting the person who won their state's election fair and square.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:51:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Are you saying this is the way the superdelegates should choose their votes in this manner?


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:01:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (2.00 / 1)

I tell you what, I'll agree to ask Obama's superdelegates in states/districts which went for Clinton to cast their SD vote for her, if every single Clinton superdelegate in a state/district which Obama won casts their SD vote for him.


by TheNewMexican on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:57:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think the theme (none / 0)

here has been that if the supers give the nomination to Clinton, they'll foment a revolution having gone against the wishes of the voters.

Somehow, it seems to be OK for SOME supers (Kennedy et al) to go against the wishes of their voters.


No way. No how. No McCain. . . . . . If you can ship a job to Bangalore India, you can ship a job to Flint Michigan.
by NJ Liberal on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:37:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think the theme (none / 0)

Except that if one side refuses to play by that rule, it makes little sense for the other side to do it. I would gladly let Senator Kennedy vote for Senator Clinton if Rep. Jackson-Lee would vote for Obama.

You don't want to have this argument with me, because I'll win, Clinton has more superdelegates from Obama districts/states than the other way around.


by TheNewMexican on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:56:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

The demographics in PA actually argue the exact opposite.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:45:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

I knew you were going to make this claim (see above)

Stop putting out this false meme (that you KNOW is false.) The fact that Hillary beats him now in PA has no bearing on how he will perform against a different opponent in a different situation...

if you think it does than you should probably get out of politics altogether.  


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:33:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Sad stupid prediction.

The General Election won't be between two highly qualified candidates.  It won't be about flag pins and out of context quotes.  It will be between a highly qualified and toughened via primary candidate and a dotard of an old man backed by a discredited party.  Dennis Kucinich could win in this General Election.  The economy isn't going to magically turn around in the next six months and the occupation will remain fruitless.  Who really believes that Democracy is on the March in the Middle East?  We're treading water there at best.

There is also the component that Obama has learned from this primary and will not be constrained against McInsane.

This primary has created record turnout for Democrats with Pennsylvania going over 4 million registered voters for the first time ever.  Just as we have seen in IL-14, the entrenched Republicans are being broomed away by change candidates.  Jerome and KnowNot are the only ones who hold out hope that Obama can't win the General much to their shame.  Every Democrat in this country should be thankful that this primary has been as hard fought as it has been.  The candidates have had to campaign hard and defend their character and positions.  Who ever wins the nominations is going to be one tough hombre.  McInsane has coasted along on the free pass of the rigged Republican primaries and sweetheart media narratives.  He is going to run into a razor sharp chain saw when he trots out his tax cuts for the rich schemes in the General.  We are going to be lucky to escape a Depression this time around and when the wreckage of Cheney's 2001 Energy Task Force is aired, nobody is going to believe these clowns can turn it around and effectively manage our economy or make intelligent decisions about the our security.  The General is going to be a whole different animal and the candidates will campaign differently.  To say that losing in Pennsylvania to Clinton means he will lose it in the General is as stupid as reading one of Jerome's posts.  It doesn't make any sense to the point of being ludicrous.


by Gilpin Guy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:46:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

It should be 55-45 win for HRC in PA, but her delegate net will be erased after NC. We will stumble into mid-June with her needing to peel 60% of the super-delegates.


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:35:00 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

She'll need 80% of the superdelegates, not 60%.


by elrod on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:41:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (2.00 / 1)

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?dia ryId=5234

70% actually.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:43:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

I'm betting Clinton by 9 right now.


by MNPundit on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:40:08 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

I'm thinking between 9-14pts but if pressed, I'd say 10-12pts.

I looked at the internals in one of the polls which the other polls more or less confirms:

-In M-D, Obama is losing the Jewish vote by 5-1
-He's losing the Catholic vote by 3-1
He's losing Whites by 2-1
-He's losing women by 2-1

This does not bode well for a GE match up.

This goes to electability but we shall see.

I know that if I were a SD and Clinton wins by 9-10pts, I would sit up and take interest.

Obama has spent an unprecedented $8m to clinton's 3.3mil, he has had over 6wks to campaign, a positive, friendly press and if he can't close the deal or come within 2-3pts,t hen he has a problem imo.

p.s. Pledged delegates as is in the case of SD can switch their pledge at anytime unless they are a bound delegate, I believe.


by shark on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:53:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Are you that obtuse? Primary election performance does not indicate general election performance. Otherwise we'd be talking about Obama's looming November blowout wins in SC, GA, AL and MS.


by elrod on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:09:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

"we'd be talking about Obama's looming November blowout wins in SC, GA, AL and MS."

Actually, your camp was talking about how He was going to turn all those red states blue just a few months ago.  Then reality hit that Alabama is still Alabama.


by reggie44pride on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 01:41:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

It doesn't say anything about the general election matchup.


by bawbie on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:15:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

"he's had...positive, friendly press..."

Wright, "Typical White Woman," Grandmother Under the Bus, Ayers, MiddleFingerGate-A-Megatron.  

All since Ohio.

Yeah.  Great press.


by LarsThorwald on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:54:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Low 40s doesn't look good for Obama (2.00 / 0)

Low 40s doesn't look good for Obama. If you factor in the margin of error we could see as much as a 60-40 split for Clinton in the popular vote, which was what I predicted.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:41:35 PM EST

Re: Low 40s doesn't look good for Obama (none / 0)

Not on your life, and either way, it doesn't change the fact that Obama has a prohibitive lead among pledged delegates which will be reinforced when he wins North Carolina.


by TheNewMexican on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:43:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Low 40s doesn't look good for Obama (none / 0)

So you're suggesting that from this poll's results, Obama might get none of the undecideds and that the margin of error could be overcounting Obama and undercounting Clinton?  Those are some powerful rose colored glasses.  

Actually, with 3 polls averaged together -- reflecting different populations and averaging out differences in pollster methodologies -- I'd expect that the margin for Clinton will be in the 5-10% range -- respectable, but not enough to change the dynamic of the delegate race.  


by Headlight on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:50:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (2.00 / 1)

Hmmm, the consensus a month ago was that Hillary needed a true blowout in PA and had a good chance to get it.  Now you're saying that an 11 point margin would "shake up the race" and really change things?  It strikes me that she needs that much of a margin to retain anything approaching a viable path to the nomination.  If it's single digits, then she'll need a double digit margin in Indiana too.  Which I don't think shell get.  


by HSTruman on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:42:11 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (2.00 / 1)

If she loses Indiana and North Carolina, Pennsylvania's margin won't matter at all.  The perception will be (finally) that she can't get enough pledged delegates to even make the race close and that she will be hoping for almost all the remaining superdelegates to flip her way.  If they keep trickling toward Obama, that will be the end.  Though I have no problem with the race finishing out the last few states, I hope it's over on June 10th or earlier.


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:46:00 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

I'm going bowling to celebrate!


by johnnygunn on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:48:28 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Just a few quick points;

- ARG has a horrible reputation but they came pretty close in OH and just about nailed it in TX

-I looked at their internals and it looked just about right in what Susa had as their model

-While ARG has a bad reputation, I am more able to look at this poll from them as a decent poll

-Zogby, IMO is equally as bad or worse in reputation. Who can forget their Obama in in CA by 13pts!  

-What I take away from the Zogby poll is the trend. I think that there is or will be movement towards Clinton.

-MD- I'm not so stuck on this poll.

-I looked at their internals and a few things bothered me-

-AA are only about ~10% in PA
-However, they represent about 13-15% of the Dem electorate

-MD has AA representation as 19%, I think that this is way too high

-If we adjust down, I think that this adds about 2-3pts to Clinton's 5pt projection here and that is about 8pts

-MD is showing undecideds at 8pts, in the past, on election day, they tend to break for her so I will give her 5pts.

I believe that she can win with double digits. While I await SUSA, I think that she can win between 9-14 but more likely 10-12pts.


by shark on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:49:12 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Since blacks are about 0% of the Republican electorate, it makes sense that they'd be 19% of the primary.  And a black candidate tends to bring out major black turnout, as happened in Ohio, for example.

Your final 10 point margin may prove true. But mostly it's because of undecided non-college-educated whites (mostly men).


by elrod on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:12:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

No, I'm basing my analysis on what other pollsters had said as well as what was written re the PA dem electorate.

I believe that it is stated that the PA AA Dem electorate is around 13-16% just as in MS it was around 37%.

This is a known # and I think that the M-D poll is using a higher # than it should which imo underpolls her #s. I think that she will do more than 8%- most likely 10 or more.

You do realize that Obama is winning the AA vote by 87-90% so if M-D has a higher AA turnout by 3-4%IMO, that skews to about a 57-60k vote edge for Obama out of an average 70k increased AA vote.


by shark on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:24:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Traditionally weekend polls under poll youth vote.  Lets see what tommorrows numbers are.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:45:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Underpolling youth vote probably results in a better model because they do not really show up to vote anyway.

If you catch them at 4pm after they woke at 1pm on a Wednesday to get their opinion, but they do not both to show up to vote, what difference does it make?

Old people still vote in much greater percentages, even with His GOTV efforts.


by reggie44pride on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 01:47:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Who are the undecideds? (none / 0)

A lot of this depends on who the undecideds are. In the past, the undecideds have been voters who didn't pay much attention to the campaign, thought Obama sounded neat, but went with the safe and familiar with Clinton. That may be the case in PA too.

But it may be different. Clinton used to top 50% in PA regularly but no longer does. My guess is that the PA undecideds might be different than those in OH. In this case, many may be voters angry at the Tuzla lie. These voters simply don't trust Hillary Clinton at all. But they haven't been convinced on Obama yet. So they're undecided and may end up sitting this out.

Who are these voters? My guess is they are blue collar men and educated suburban Philly women. If the Philly-suburban women are like women in my family, then they would love to see a woman President but are disgusted by Hillary Clinton's dishonesty and cynicism. My mother was this way and didn't decide to vote for Obama here in TN until she walked into the booth. As for blue collar men, they have no emotional longing for Hillary Clinton, but they do have nostalgia for Bill. They probably agree with much of the right-wing smears of Hillary Clinton over the years but they're still Democrats. The question with them is: will they vote at all? Some will vote for Obama. More will vote for Clinton out of familiarity. But nobody can say what the turnout will be.

The 43 ceiling assumption may not apply as it did   in OH. But then again, it could. Who knows?


by elrod on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:50:06 PM EST

Re: Who are the undecideds? (none / 0)

I've heard that the undecideds look like her voters i.e White, Catholics etc. and they ususally go for her on the primary day.


by shark on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:17:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yup. Gonna be a blowout. (none / 0)

I'm betting Hillary will win by 20 points. Yup.


Your old role is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a changing.
by Travis Stark on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:53:28 PM EST

Re: Yup. Gonna be a blowout. (none / 0)

She'd better. If not, she's done and should concede.

Let's face it, the delegate count isn't going her way. There are more important things than a Hillary presidency. Namely, a Democratic presidency.


by faster democrat kill kill on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:59:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yup. Gonna be a blowout. (none / 0)

Wanna bet on that one?


by yitbos96bb on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:46:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dirty campaigning works (none / 0)


by OhPlease on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:54:12 PM EST

Re: Dirty campaigning works (2.00 / 1)

I'm calling you on this because it seems that you having been paying attention. Obama unleashed the kitchen sink this weekend.

After being caught in a lie at the debate that his campaign had only brought up Bosnia when asked by the media, he unleased 3 major generals Sat in a media call saying that Clinton wasn't fit to lay a wreath at the tomb of the unknown soldier.

Gov. Rendell, this morning called that call the most despicable thing that he had heard.

Obama, unleased several negative ads this weekend and sent out several fliers including the revival of the famous Harry and Louise UHC ad which was debunked in Ohio.

It has been Obama who has gone really negative in PA even hitting Clinton at every whistle stop yesterday.

His internals must be bad.


by shark on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:16:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dirty campaigning works (none / 0)

No doubt they are.  But that's not the point, it's the delegates.  Each and every one of them, bless their souls.  In the reality-based community, which encompasses most of the superdelegates and other Democrats running for office, that is still the metric by which the nomination will be determined, smokescreen and wishful-thinking notwithstanding.  If you think the media narrative of a 'close fought' contest isn't just a convenient marketing ploy for ratings and a set-up for a 'how the once mighty are fallen' climax to the nomination you are just adding fuel to the fire which is being prepared.

Democrats may be a lot of things, and I'll admit I'm stretching a bit here, but we are not stupid.  Not this time.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:00:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dirty campaigning works (none / 0)

Disagree - Obama's negative ads force Hillary to spend money defending them. It's a very affective tactic when you have a lot of cash and your opponent doesn't - i doubt that it's anything to do with internals.


by interestedbystander on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:04:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

The interesting question, to me, is whether the Obama campaign sees an opportunity in the regions around its whistlestop tour.  Whether it's a defensive or offensive measure, I don't know.


by rfahey22 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:55:28 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

He has such a financial lead over Clinton that he can afford to contest her even in places where she should be demographically safe.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:50:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I can't wait (2.00 / 1)

 
   to see Clinton, with a straight face, claim that her win in PA was a shocking upset, and proof that her campaign is viable.
by southernman on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:55:57 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (2.00 / 1)

I love how people act how Obama is doomed because he can't beat the one of the best candidates in a primary of all time in a state where the demographics heavily lean towards her.  I don't remember Jerome or anyone else calling Wisconsin a massive failure for Hillary because she didn't come within 5 points.

That being said, PA is clearly a Hillary state, and i am fully expecting AT BEST a 54-46 Hillary win, At worst 58-42.  If Obama wins Indiana and North Carolina, the race is still over.


by Bobby Obama on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:02:35 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

When your biased, you don't make those arguments.  But remember, some of these people don't let truth and facts mess up their arguments.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:42:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

I think what is funny, and a huge differece between the Hillary and Barack camps is that when Clinton wins by a smaller margin than expected her supporters are euphoric, and when he narrows things down from a huge margin his supporters see gloom.  I think some of the sense of inevitability that Senator Clinton brought into this thing still sticks and is one of the reasons, if not the reason, for the persistent optimism of her supporters and the frequent lapses into despair of his, with not much to support either mood.


by mady on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:08:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The verge is (2.00 / 1)

a good way to look at PA if Clinton wins by more than 10% of the vote.

Since neither candidate will 'win' based upon the apportioned pledged delegate count, we will see one of two scenarios unfold (imho):

1. The uncommitted superdelegates see an Obama loss through the lens of the amount of time and money he spent and conclude he is not electable, thereby throwing their support to Clinton.

2. The uncommitted superdelagates will decide to support the pledged delegate front runner with the intent of having a unified party candidate prior to the convention.


by Coldblue on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:05:08 PM EST

Re: The verge is (none / 0)

Or option 3.
The superdelegates understand the demographics in PA that made an Obama victory impossible (very old, blue collar, whites)
by elrod on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:13:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The verge is (none / 0)

Clearly, he didn't think it was impossible as he had said that when the voters see him, a light will shine down and then they will know that they have to vote for him.

Why else would he spend more than any canidate for anything in PA i.e Rendell, casey, Kerry.

He has spent nearly over $8m for the PA primary and an unprecendented $3.3mil this week alone.


by shark on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:19:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The verge is (none / 0)

Oh, I don't know, because he has the money to spend and it would keep Clinton's margin down?  Such a simplistic argument.  


by rfahey22 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:24:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The verge is (none / 0)

For the delegates.  Each and every precious one.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:02:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The verge is (none / 0)

To keep the margin as tight as possible, and to improve name ID, etc. for the general election.

Right now he's running against both Clinton and McCain, just as right now Hillary's running against both Obama and McCain.


by Huck on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 03:13:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The verge is (none / 0)

Indeed, aside from AR and NY, PA was the state where Clinton had the best chance of a blowout.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:52:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The verge is (none / 0)

"Or option 3.
The superdelegates understand the demographics in PA that made an Obama victory impossible (very old, blue collar, whites) "

I am sure the sagacious supers will be so understanding of her pending trashing in NC, due to "demographics," which is now code for something racist (generally speaking).


by reggie44pride on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 01:50:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The verge is (none / 0)

What I don't understand about #1 is that how has Clinton shown that she's electable?

She has been beaten on every measurable front in this campaign, why would an SD believe that while she blew it in the primary, she's going to do great in the general?


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:17:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Short answer (none / 0)

she hasn't been beaten; she's behind on some and ahead on others.


by Coldblue on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:49:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Short answer (none / 0)

Fair point.

But what is she leading in?


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:53:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Large states (none / 0)

Heavy electoral vote states, to be more exact.


by Coldblue on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

she dominates.... (none / 0)

the bitter voters in denial vote


If yer after gettin the honey, then you don't go killing all the bees.
by Fluffy Puff Marshmallow on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:01:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Short answer (none / 0)

Where is she ahead?


by telfish on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:05:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Jerome, (none / 0)

Nice balanced report. That's not easy to do. We need more of this kind of information. Thanks.


by joliepoint on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:05:56 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (2.00 / 1)

I think it's important for people to understand that, at this point, the expectations game that prevails in early contests is moot.  Clinton doesn't "win" by exceeding expectations.  The only way she wins is if she collects enough delegates in Pennsylvania to offset Obama's likely margin in North Carolina and his current lead in Indiana.  The whole idea of "expectations" and "momentum" really don't matter any more, because clearly, Obama is not going to drop out of the race in any plausible scenario.  

Clinton, however, is on the tightrope, and every contest brings her a little closer to collapse.  She needs to prove that she is still viable every election and the premise of her campaign could come crashing down if she doesn't keep gaining on Obama.  

Her fundraising is lagging.  As the number of races remaining dwindle, the margin she'd need in the rest of the contests becomes more and more beyond any reasonable expectation she could have.  And from these numbers, she's going to fall short in Pennsylvania.  In the 10%-15% range, she isn't even in the ballpark to overcome Obama's leads in other races.  


by Headlight on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:08:42 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Hey, speaking of which, where are the fund-raising figures.  Aren't they due soon?


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:03:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

I can't find the link, will post if I do, but had read earlier today that the figures will be out tomorrow.


by mady on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:34:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Thanks.  There's usually a few leaks the day before, anyone heard anything?


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:54:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

http://www.theleafchronicle.com/apps/pbc s.dll/article?AID=/20080420/NEWS01/80420 008

Associated Press, mostly on McCain.  No tidbits on Clinton's release except that it will be tomorrow.  


by mady on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:13:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Thanks for that, nothing new there yet.  It will be interesting to see the cash-on-hand figures for the end of March, I'm thinking.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:17:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)


Clinton reported raising $20 million in March and had $9 million for the primary available at the beginning of April. But she also reported debts of $10.3 million, putting her in the red.

[...]

Clinton spent $22.2 million in March.

Jim Kuhnhenn - Obama reports $51M to start April; McCain raised $15M AP 20 Apr 08

Raised $20M, spent $22.2M with $10.3M debts?  Doesn't that put her in a serious cash crisis?  Especially considering that some of the $20M she raised is no doubt general election money?


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 02:14:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

How is she financing her campaign now, day to day?  There is no money.

And this:

"Nearly half of Clinton's debt in March is money owed to the firm of her demoted former chief strategist, Mark Penn. The report shows that the campaign owes $4.6 million to Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates. The campaign has already paid the firm $14 million, including $3 million in March for polling and direct mail."

From your link.  Not exactly getting your money's worth.


by mady on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 09:34:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Zogby one day samples are bizarre (2.00 / 1)

The Zogby one day samples are bizarre

Saturday was 44 Clinton- 46 Obama
and then
Sunday is  53 Clinton - 38 Obama???

Just not credible when the number of undecideds on both days is virtually identical.

(Saturday one day sample discussed here http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?I D=1485; Sunday one day sample discussed here http://www.realclearpolitics.com/RCP_PDF /NewsmaxPADay5NR%204_21_2008.pdf


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:22:39 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Jerome, did you read my two emails?

Thanks,
John


Never let the bullies win.
by SluggoJD on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:24:38 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Hillary needs a good win in PA, a win in Indiana and blowouts in WV and KY. OR isn't insurmountable either.


by rossinatl on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:25:06 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

She's losing in Indiana according to recent polls.


by yitbos96bb on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:48:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

given how they called Ohio on their final poll..(dead on 55-44) I would say tomorrow's USA's final poll will probably be it. A week ago they had Clinton up by 14.(a drop from the previous weeks 18).

I would venture to say a bigger turn-out will not hurt Obama.

In Ohio, a 10 point victory netted her 11 delegates.
As others have written...NC for Bama by 15 would probably negate it.
I would say best case reasonable scenario for Clinton by June 4th would still have her down by 70 delegates.


"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:45:23 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Sounds reasonable. Even with her big Ohio win, she only netted 9 delegates.
If yer after gettin the honey, then you don't go killing all the bees.
by Fluffy Puff Marshmallow on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:05:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

"Even with her big Ohio win, she only netted 9 delegates."

Which documents perfectly the insanity of the delegate system.

He nets as many delegates from winning Idaho as she did by winning quite comfortably in Ohio.

Keep telling yourself that's a great system.


by reggie44pride on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 01:52:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Don't think it is a great system, but it is the current system.  

I get sick of HRC supporters saying, "if it were winner-take-all like the repubs, she would have won already."  Guess what, this system we have is not like the repubs and, if it were, smart campaigns would be run differently.

Not saying you're saying that reggie, just that all candidates should play by the rules laid out and BO is ahead by those rules.

Whether those are the best rules to play by is certainly a valid discussion, but I do not find it germaine to the current election.

Again, I am not trying to read more into your comment than is there.  I am deeply sympathetic to the 'insanity' of it (and of even more insane things like the Texas primacaucus).  


If yer after gettin the honey, then you don't go killing all the bees.
by Fluffy Puff Marshmallow on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 02:04:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Supposed to (none / 0)

I'm just wondering, if, in the general election, assuming Obama is the Democratic nominee, anyone will think it is so amazing and wonderful, and such a sign of Obama's great campaigning ability, if he takes a State where McCain had an advantage in the polls, based on name recognitition (or whatever), outspends him, draws bigger crowds than him, makes hipper references to hipper types of music, and has younger, prettier people at his rallies, and so on and so forth, and, come election day, manages to cut McCain's lead (as determined from the polls on some arbitrary date) by 50% or 75% or 90%, but still loses the State, and all its electoral votes.

According to the little map in the upper left hand corner of the front page, Obama is currently trailing McCain in the polls by 290 to 248 electoral votes. He is ahead of Obama in Ohio and Pennsylvania. Will everyone who says that is "no surprise" that Clinton beat Obama in Ohio, and that it will be "no surprise" if she beats him in Pennsylavania too, say the same thing on the day after the General Election, if Obama loses them (and, if so, probably the whole election) to McCain? Will they say, "Well, Obama was never SUPPOSED to win those States anyway."? Keep in mind too, that Obama will not have the luxory of spending a whole month of campaining in each of those two States, as he has had in the primaries.


by freemansfarm on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:01:04 PM EST

Re: Supposed to (none / 0)

well as long as the people at the rallies are better looking, that would be wonderful.

Why even have a general election?  Those little maps seem to show McCain has the whole thing locked up.


If yer after gettin the honey, then you don't go killing all the bees.
by Fluffy Puff Marshmallow on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:08:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Supposed to (none / 0)

Thanks for not even bothering to respond in a meaningful way. I'm trying to make a point here--that excuses about name recognition and so on won't cut it the GE, and that a "close second" means nothing in the GE, with its winner take all formula. Same with "demographics." In all of the swing States, the electorate in the GE will be whiter and more conservative than it has been in the Democratic primaries. Under the theory that I see constantly advanced here, and elsewhere, this will mean that Obama is "not supposed" to win those States. Well, that will mean that the Democrats will lose the election. Of course the polls are not dispositive, but my point is that denting the leads shown by them, rather than overcoming those leads, won't mean a thing in the GE. It might be different if some plausible reason could be given for Obama not going all out to win outright in Ohio and PA, but there isn't won. A win in either of those States would have, or will, not Hillary out. Nor does he have any excuse about not having time to campaign in these States. He has had more time now than he will have in the GE. The crack about the pretty people at the rallies was just that, a crack, but the point remains. For all the talk about Obama's great campaign, he doesn't seem to be able to flip enough voters to win big States in which he trailed initially in the polls. So that's why I don't think you just dismiss the polls. In any event, I am trying to have a serious discussion, but I feel that you are not.


by freemansfarm on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:16:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Supposed to (none / 0)

So... it's ok to denigrate BO supporters but not make a crack about it?  

Sorry, but GE polls in APRIL are meaningless.  

HRC's and BO's basic blocs have been pretty stable throughout the primaries.  The fact that BO has not won over HRC voters en masse says very little about the GE in my opinion.  THe game right now is to gather delegates.  That's what the Clinton campaign was saying until they started losing.   Until the game changes to gathering electoral college votes, delegates are what matters.

So, we can talk about Clinton winning big states, but she only netted out 9 delegates from Ohio and lost Texas.    


If yer after gettin the honey, then you don't go killing all the bees.
by Fluffy Puff Marshmallow on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:31:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Supposed to (none / 0)

Obama "can't win over HRC voters" when he has all the money, and all the media and party officials saying he is a shoe in, and all the polls saying how high her negatives are, and all the time in the world, but, somehow, he will be able to win over the whiter, more conservative McCain voters in November? I'm just not seeing that.


by freemansfarm on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:35:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Supposed to (none / 0)

So, all HRC voters are going to go over to McCain?  

My point about GE polls right now is this:  currently, we have a Republican candidate picked and two Democratic candidates still running.  That depresses the numbers for both of the Dem candidates.  Once we have a nominee, either HRC or BO will get a bump up.  That's why I find the GE polls right now meaningless.

Do you honestly think that no HRC supporters pick McCain over Obama right now in a poll just because they want HRC to look better?  Or that no Obama voters are doing the same thing?


If yer after gettin the honey, then you don't go killing all the bees.
by Fluffy Puff Marshmallow on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:43:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Supposed to (2.00 / 1)

No, not "all HRC voters" are going to go to McCain. But it won't take that many to swing PA to McCain. Again, Kerry only carried PA by 2%. Kerry was considered one of the more "conservative" of the Dem. primary candidates in 2004, and he was a veteran. Obama is (whether it's true or not) seen as more "liberal" than Hillary, is not a veteran. McCain is seen (rightly or wrongly) as a moderate, and he is a war hero. We have lost Ohio in the last two elections, so, arguably, McCain will need none of Hillary's voters to beat Obama. On the contrary, Obama needs to peel off McCain voters to win. Again, how is going to do that if he can't even peel off Hillary voters.

The "demographics" that Obama has relied on--African Americans and white liberals--simply won't matter as much in the GE as they have in the primaries. Maybe half as much in the electorate nationwide. And less than half in swing States like Ohio and PA. Just getting most of Hillary's voters in those States won't be good enough. I assume Gore and Kerry had "most" of these voters, and both of them lost Ohio, and the election.


by freemansfarm on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:56:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Supposed to (none / 0)

I agree with your analysis that Obama will have a harder time in places like PA and OH (and let's not even discuss FL, oh wait, did I bring that up?) and am giving you mojo for that.

But, harder does not mean impossible and I do believe he will have an easier time in other states than HRC.  

We're playing a different game right now.  Dem against Dem.  For better or worse, Obama has 'played' the game better than HRC (by 'better' I mean gathered more delegates).  I think that bodes well for the general compared to HRC's rather chaotic campaign management.

Given the economic situation and deterioration in Iraq, McCain has a very difficult road ahead of him.


If yer after gettin the honey, then you don't go killing all the bees.
by Fluffy Puff Marshmallow on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:11:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Supposed to (none / 0)

Thanks, and I agree that Obama will do better than Hillary in some States.

The problem I see is that he will do better, but not necessarily better enough to win those States. Again, the winner take all formula, in my opinion, hurts Obama--with his support scattered on college campuses and similar liberal enclaves in otherwise solidly Red States, or concentrated in large African American communities in the Southern States that are also too Red to flip.

I certainly agree with you that Obama has played the game of the primaries more effectively than Hillary. Again, though, I wonder how that will translate into the GE, when the rules are totally different (no caucases, winner take all, less concern over accusations of racism, etc.).

Your last point, that the "objective factors" (as my Marxist-Lenninist friends would say) favor out Party is one I endorse. That makes it all the important for us to pick the right candidate.


by freemansfarm on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:23:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Supposed to (none / 0)

Watch my lips. This is not November it's April. There is no Dem nominee as of yet. McCain is on his own the two Dem's are splitting the polls for the general.

Whichever Dem gets the nod will jump in the polls against McCain. This means nothing at this stage just as the primary results mean nothing regarding the General.


by telfish on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:13:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Supposed to (none / 0)

Don't be so patronizing. I know its April. But, in January, November, October, and so forth, Hillary led Obama in the polls in Ohio and PA. Well, she won Ohio and now I see many Obama supporters telling me she will win PA too. And this, despite his having a month or more in each case to campaingn in those States, plus a huge money advantage. I don't want to see a repeat of that in the GE. And, I'm not sure a "Unity Bounce" is going to do the trick. As just stated, the voters in Ohio and PA will be whiter and more conservative than the voters in those States in the primaries. We haven't carried Ohio since Clinton. Kerry won in PA by less than 2%.


by freemansfarm on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:21:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

McCain is a stronger candidate than Bush ever was. If they had nominated him in 2000 it would have been like this:

McCain 55
Gore 45

Hillary is our only hope of holding Reagan blue collar white Democrats in the critical Midwest. She is also our only hope of holding Hispanics against a Southwestern Senator who Lou Dobbs says favors amnesty.
She also is the only Dem left who can put Florida into play.

Why are we nominating Obama again???


by rossinatl on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:28:58 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Folks, I can just imagine if you had been around in 1992:  We can't win with Bill Clinton! He's in third place and it's July already!  We're doomed!


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:50:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Bill Clinton was able to connect to precisely the demographic that Obama has not been able to reach--working class whites, particularly southern and border south ones. Bill Clinton won KY, WV, Tenn, and Ohio. I don't see Obama doing that.

Dig a little deeper. When have the Democrats done best in presidential races in the last 35 years of so? When they ran a southenor as their candidate--Carter, Bill Clinton, Gore. When have they done the worst? When they ran a northernor--McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis, Kerry. OK, Hillary is not a southernor, but she is married to a former President who is one, and she has lived in the south, and, this demographic seems to accept her. Obama has no ties to the south at all (not even the ones that most northern African Americans have), and this demographic has rejected him.


by freemansfarm on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:04:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

Man, what a schizophrenic party we are right now. If you read this site you would think that Tues the wheels are going to fall off the Obama express, while in other blogs Tuesday will be the day when the party begins to coalesce meaningfully around Obama. Who is right? Will the frothing mouths here be correct or the frothing mouths elsewhere? I wish we weren't so frothing but I fervently hope we can work this out soon and without destroying ourselves in the process.


by wasder on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:47:22 PM EST

HRC by 15 points and it won't mean a thing. (none / 0)


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:57:59 PM EST

Zogby numbers lok iffy (2.00 / 1)

Yesterday (one day polling) he had Sen. Obama
at 46 and Sen. Clinton at 44. Now (one day polling) he has them 38-53. Seem wrong to me.
by ann0nymous on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:09:44 PM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

I wish we knew what the internal polling was telling the candidates...

Something is weird, really...  Obama is still in the state with his whistlestop tour, which would be unusual if he was considered to be losing this big... (would look bad.. the whole expectations game)...

Rendell and Co. are lowering expectations even further today by saying that a 3 point win for Hillary is a big win, down from his saying about 8 a week ago...

Obama's had the most attended rallies of the primary season this weekend...  Huge numbers surpassing all of his previous attendance records...

Most importantly, the Obama folk on the ground feel very good...  In Ohio, the Obama offices were like morgues... they could sense what was about to happen...  there was LOTS of Obama hostility here... Apparently, in PA, they are very optimistic and encouraged...

We'll know in a couple of days, I guess...


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 12:18:12 AM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

"And even though he's outspent Clinton by 3:1 or 4:1, and had the opportunity to target Democratic voters for 7 complete weeks, Obama doesn't look like he's on the verge of even coming close to sealing the deal through Pennsylvania. "

some demograhpics aren't condusive to certain candidates. Democrats could outspend the GOP 15 to 1 in Utah and get our asses handed back to us on a platter come the GE.

Appalachia is very very kind to Hillary). Most of PA is in Appalachia which makes Obama's eating away at Hillary's 19 point lead even more remarkable. Unless of course he loses by 19+ points (which is possible).


!
by alex100 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 12:25:23 AM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

I said a month ago:  Just like Ohio, HRC by ten. If it's over that percentage then I would have to say that the electorate is pissed off at BO and the tide has most definitely turned.


by krj47 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:31:16 AM EST

PA on the verge (none / 0)

This contest remainds me of Napoleon's campaign in Russia. Obama wins by losing. Clinton leave PA with no dent in the delegate count, broke and her reputation in tatters and her negatives insurmountable. Forced to content here, she foregoes the opportunity to truly contest in NC and to make Indiana her own. Obama was never going to win here and never said he expected to. No matter whom you support, you have tp cpncede that he has run a brilliant campaign.


by NYWoman on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:43:13 AM EST

Re: PA on the verge (none / 0)

I am a 50 yr old white female (wavering) Hillary supporter.  I do recognize that Obama has run a brilliant campaign. I only wish Hillary's was run as well--she'd be the nominee.  I AM A REALIST.  She is  losing.  She will lose (come on folks, we were hopeful if she had a 20 pt PA race; now we've changed our tune to 10pts means a "comeback.")  

I want Hillary, but I want my fellow dems to know that I will back Obama if he wins the nomination (looks likely).  

The rest of you need to swallow your pride and stop the name calling, the exaggerations, etc and get ready for PARTY UNITY.  McCain is an easy target, but not if we become OUR OWN worst enemy! GROW UP and face reality and become a party (team) player.  It's time to focus on McCain being brutally beaten on election day.


by citizensane on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 02:32:33 PM EST


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