by Student Guy, Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:51:13 PM EST
Tags: education, merit pay (all tags)
Because a civil discussion is a good thing.
Any country wide (or even a state wide, or even a school district wide) merit pay system would be ripe for abuse.
Private schools do not have this problem, of course. But they are not the solution either.
One possibility: if parent groups take it upon themselves to reward teachers with extra cash, based on their experiences. Of course, there is plenty wrong with this suggestion as well.
The work required to keep the system honest without making it all about a high stakes test would be incredible but I was talking with a friend from HS today and we couldn't believe the poor quality of some of the teachers (like the ones mentioned and there are a lot more) that I've had.
The school officials, the parents and the students could vote on which teacher(s) should get a share in the fund.
I think it's important that the students have a least fractional votes as they surely know if they like their teachers or not.
Bottom line, not matter what measurement is used to determine which teachers are better than others, eventually some teachers will find a way to scam it. You know what they say about building a better mousetrap.
however based on being a high school student the majority likes the teachers that don't make them do anything.
Building a better mousetrap is possible as long as the nuclear physicists don't get involved.
I suspect that merit pay won't change the equations much.
Some bad teachers will find a way to earn that pay unfairly.
Some good ones will get screwed.
Probably about the same as christmas holidays.
See my thought upstream for what inspired me. The current system has flaws, but probably won't be changed.
I'm going to be honest - I think a Democrat has a hard time really reforming in this area, because the teacher's unions are a substantial bloc in our base.
Personally, I do not understand the need for a tenure system, and I do not see why we cannot pay our teachers competitive, performance-based salaries. I have been meaning to ask some of the folks at the Foundation I work for what their thoughts are - we are very involved in Education.
Something I thought about, re: credentials - there is something that accountants have to go through, as well as doctors, that might be applicable to teachers. Once you receive your certification (ie, CPA for accountant), you are required to take x number of credits in coursework each year, in order to maintain your certification.
Maybe teachers need a similar model? (Or do they already have it? Honestly I'm quite naive on the subject of teacher pay.)
that teacher havve to undergo X hours of retraining every 3 years.
I agree that merit pay reform is very unlikely to ever come from a democrat due to the teachers union being part of our base. It is slightly frustrating as poor teachers get the same pay as good teachers.
an issue-based diary on MyDD? It sure has been a while...
look for my rescue in about 45 minutes. All issue dairies (or house candidates).
Everytime a progressive democrat tries to propose a change in the system, a lot of naysayers try to come out and squelch fresh voices. I agree that merit pay is a valid thing. As the diarist mentioned, it doesn't have to be the vital component of the pay. But there is nothing wrong in making up a list of various factors as there is no perfect way to award teachers. People who decry merit pay proposals are ignoring the fact that the current system isnt that fair in the first place. I get pissed at people who keep saying ":this wont work, it was tried out" when in reality one could nitpick the problems with the current system they endorse.
I think testing a teacher on his/her knowledge should only be one of many factors because a teacher with more knowledge is not necessarily the better teacher though it will surely help.
I do find it interesting that many democrats who oppose vouchers or even charter schools do not realize that they trust the parents and school board's judgement in delivering the very best education to their kids in the community, but do not trust them to reward teachers on merit pay.
Will there be abuse? sure. that happens in every system. You do not set policy based on exceptions.
I appreciate it. Also look for my rescue of non primary war diaries in about 40 minutes.
The thing about teaching is that many people think they know what the job is like because they have been on the other side of the desk as a student. It's an entirely different world when you not only have to stand in front of the class every day, but have to deal with the sometimes ridiculous demands of parents and administrators.
In California you must take the CSET, CBEST, and RICA tests in order to teach elementary school. This is more testing than most employment fields require. If you want to teach high school you must pass the CSET in your field. In addition, beginning teachers must go through two years of professional development and mentorship before receiving their clear credential. I can tell you that the process is not helpful, and does little to weed out "bad" teachers. Good test takers are not necessarily good teachers, and the opposite is also true.
When I was in high school I remember being horrified by my history teacher's misstatements about the lives of women in Ancient Greece. I was skeptical of everything she said from that point forward. Now I realize how grueling it can be to stand up and talk for hours on end, and how difficult it is to be an expert on many different topics (even if it is all at the 5th grade level). I work with low income kids; I've got to say that this job is more exhausting than waitressing, and more challenging than organic chemistry was in college.
My students have consistently made a lot of gains, so I would probably benefit from merit pay, but I am against it. Administrators (particularly those at low income schools) are notorious for being overbearing and vindictive. I have seen them intentionally stack classes by placing all of the difficult and low-performing students in one classroom. In the era of NCLB students already are assessed at the beginning and end of the year with district exams. If you have been given a class of students who have serious discipline issues, it is much less likely that you will have as much academic improvement as the classes in which all of the well behaved students have been placed. In addition, schools that have low scores are placed under such restrictive conditions that teachers literally have no say in how they educate their students. I must close my door and sneak lessons to supplement the ineffective curriculum my district has chosen. If I am caught I could be reprimanded in spite of my scores. It would be wrong to punish teachers with low scores if they have not had the option of choosing how their students will be taught.
an incentive not for base pay. Here in MN the standards are less stringent (pass the certification continue getting training)
Also I have close family members who taught on multiple levels (high school and elementary) and a look from the other side of salary negotiations (my father).
I can understand your experiences my mother tried to teach evolution as a high school biology teacher in a rural school district the administration was very unhelpful. My aunt has had 33 kids in her lass at one point and there was a lot of behavioral problems in that group. That made that year for her very frustrating.
Also I recommended a multitude of factors not just outcome on a high stakes test. Teacher's should have some standard of knowledge and not pass on faulty information what I commented on barely scratched the surface of the disservice some of my teachers did to their subject.
I agree that NCLB is an abomination for education. I got to hear it for my father and aunt.
I am going to give your father the benefit of the doubt and assume that he behaved better than the school board members in my district. They are currently working to take away health benefits and to increase class size above the 33/class ratio we already have.
I could very easily see them saying that it would start off as bonus pay, and then in the next cycle of negotiations argue that they can't afford to increase base pay because of the money they are paying in bonuses. Also, they would argue that "good" teachers already have the option of getting bonuses so if teachers are doing their "job" they shouldn't need an increase in base pay. I've already explained to you how test scores will not necessarily reflect the quality of the teacher.
You need to realize that there is a tremendous amount of inequity inherent in our system. Inner city schools are operating under an entirely different set of circumstances than rural and suburban schools. I can't help shaking my head when I hear teachers complain about a few more special needs, or ESL kids in their class. All 33 of my students receive free lunch, about 80% of my school's 800 students are ESL, and our kids are dealing with issues that suburban schools couldn't possibly imagine. There are kids that come in and sleep in class because they couldn't sleep the night before while gang members were shooting at their house. The majority of my students have family members in jail, and many of my young male students see jail as their only possible future. We've had kids get caught drinking beer in class (IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL) and setting the school on fire. It's a whole different ball game when you teach in the inner city.
I know that the majority of the bonuses would go to the teachers in suburban schools in the district. Their scores are high and always seem to go up. A good friend of mine who works at one of these schools has great scores even though she puts the minimum amount of effort required into her teaching. She shows up at 8:15 and complains if she has to stay past 3:30. In contrast, many of the teachers at the school I work at arrive at 7:00 and leave at 6:00. They are great teachers working 11 hour days, and still have low test scores.
We are operating under a broken system which wants to treat all children the same rather than recognize the extreme ramifications of growing up in poverty. Giving bonuses to the teachers who have chosen to work in high income areas because their test scores are higher will do nothing to fix the problems we are facing. I've already passed three big tests, a credentialing program, and a beginning teacher program. I don't see how continuing to take more tests will enhance my teaching. I don't think that any test would have eliminated the bad teachers I've seen in the schools. They probably would have passed them with flying colors.
I'm not sure what you mean by "I am for using it as an incentive not for base pay."
Merit pay traditionally acts like a raise in that it increases base salary (before stipends and such). There can also be multiple levels of merit pay, with COLA as the lowest level (above nothing) and COLA + a few percent as a cap.
A bonus does not increase base salary and much be "re-earned" each year.
Some inceptive plans involve a little of both, though pure bonuses are not as common.
My daughter's fifth grade teacher has about 22 students each year. A couple super geniuses can wreak havoc on her teacher's year-to-year averages. Using something like exponential smoothing to measure a trend would make more sense in such a case.
I think the method I explained up there sort of covers that in comparing yearly improvement to a baseline for each age. I am not a stats wizard so I don't know exactly how to do it but the exponiental smoothing sounds good (I am a biology (especially entomolgy (study of insects)/medicine guy) It is tough to get a true basis of teacher performance.
All it takes for a small elementary school to get totally reamed is to have a few more ESL or borderline special needs kids enroll in the same year. It's a real shame because aren't the kids who might have difficulty with the test exactly the ones you'd most like to help?
I doesn't appear to me that much thought was given to these kinds statistical issues when the legislation was drafted.
when NCLB got passed. It was a small rural community with a small latino transient worker population. Some years were tough because there were a lot of speical ed and esl kids in the same class.
I agree with you, it seems it kind of got rammed through with out much thought to the implications of it. I bet Ted Kennedy regrets cosponsoring it now.
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