MyDD :: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO)

Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO)

by Veteran75, Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:36:40 PM EST

I thought that the disaster of Mark Penn had passed, but the current HuffPo scoop shows how his strategy is still biting back.

I don't fault HRC for her comments about MoveOn.org . . . heck I am a moderate Democrat that doesn't agree with everything they represent. What DOES make this an issue is that she has just given voters another reason to question her credibility.

Listen to this clip of her praising MoveOn before she was against them:

There really isn't much more to say . . . I will vote for her if she is the nominee, but I NEVER held illusions that she was saintly. She is a dishonest politician, but I will take her over McCain if Obama somehow loses his triple digit delegate lead.

Poll

Votes: 29
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Tags: Hillary, moveon.org (all tags)

Permalink :: 114 Comments :: Post a Comment

Comments, SNARK, tips (2.00 / 2)

BOO McCain!

NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!

by Veteran75 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:37:26 PM EST

she stood up (2.00 / 2)

when Barack didn't, he ducked it, she said they had a right to express themselves. Speaking isn't the same as bullying though and i know this is controversial and you guys will tr me into the night, but young enthusiastic girls and guys in caucuses can get rather scary to old folks, and when they persuade, they can feel hard to stand up to. Now, if the results in Texas had been the same in the caucuses as in the real voting i'd have not a leg to stand on ,but they weren't, the results seem to corroborate what many have said, that his 'ground' organization is a tad persuasive, and more than many older people feel comfortable with. The right to speak and organize and petition the government over over grievances isn't the right to bully people, however softly they feel they may have tried to persuade. In the privacy and safety of the polling booths results aren't so skewed.

Hillary - alternative energy

by anna shane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:53:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she stood up (none / 0)

It is a really slippery slope to start talking about voter intimidation. We had it in Ohio for real in 2004, actual documented cases in Democratic districts, so I get really nervous when people start waxing anecdotal about it.

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:55:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

they don't see it like that (2.00 / 1)

but they don't understand how scared old people are of young people, of their exuberance not necessarily their dangerousness, their bouncyness, their overall loudness, It's hard enough to stand up for something when you aren't being deluged with arguments for the other side, and after all that's the point of the caucus, to face those who like the other one and defend your choice in the face of opposition. Voter intimidation has a precise meaning that isn't what goes on in caucuses, that's just good natured bullying, the American way. Extreme persuasion? The clash between youth and the aged? I don't know, and I sure don't want to be tr'd over it, but it happened and the Texas results rather do show that minimally the results would not have been the same.

Hillary - alternative energy

by anna shane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:05:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: they don't see it like that (none / 0)

To be quite honest, I both love and loathe the caucus system... it is both open and intimidating... which is a good and a bad thing... It probably is sleepy and dull in an ordinary election year... but this is no ordinary election year...

But the time to turn away from the caucus system is not mid-primary season...

Personally, I think we need to go with Bob Graham's suggesting of overhauling the whole nomination process.

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:18:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

for sure (none / 0)

I was just saying that Hillary standing up for the right of move-on to engage in free speech isn't the same as noticing that this nomination process has gotten a little wild at times, and some older people have been very turned off. We need to get rid of Dean, he's a hack, and get rid of Donna and her heavy thumb. This did not have to come to this, and i'm not going to be quiet or give a dime to the DNC if Florida isn't seated. I will vote for Barack only if he really wins it, i'm not sure what I'll do if she gets the popular vote including Florida and it's given to him. I'll probably hold my nose and vote for him, but know at least ten women who will not vote for him, but would if he won the popular vote with Florida.

Hillary - alternative energy

by anna shane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:33:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: for sure (none / 0)

Obama has more popular votes, currently, even with Florida and Michigan. We'll see where things are come June 3. Not a huge margin. This doesn't include the caucus votes, which put Obama way out ahead.

Obama
13,931,423 47.6%

Clinton
13,837,418 47.2%

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/president/democratic_vote_count.htm l

For the sake of the party, and the US, I hope he wins the popular vote.

by Kiku on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:59:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: they don't see it like that (none / 0)

I can't see any worthy reason to TR this comment. You state your position reasonably here and make it clear you're not accusing anybody of actual voter intimidation.

Good comment.

Prog

by Progressive Witness on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:37:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she stood up (2.00 / 1)

I made this argument on dkos and got troll rated. I've been a member on dkos since the first year they were online. The guy that troll rated me is a student. He was probably in grade school when I joined that site, and now he's rating me off it.

by Dave B on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:57:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Using your logic (none / 0)

You must agree 100% with kos, as he was the first member on the site and thus has seniority over you

John McCain

by MILiberal on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:43:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she stood up (none / 0)

she stood up, when she she was losing.

A complete politician.

by IowaMike on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:48:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

she stood up (none / 0)

when they did that betray-us ad. That was before any voting took place. She takes a lot of stands, wants us to know where she is, so that if she's the prez no surprises. So, why do you say when she's losing, does that mean something else?

Hillary - alternative energy

by anna shane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:03:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she stood up (none / 0)

She openly courted them, until they supported Obama.

BTW, Move On was never against action in Afghanastan. Was this a misstatement, or another time that she is saying something she knows not to be true?

by IowaMike on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:21:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Comments, SNARK, tips (none / 0)

Nice diary, rec'd

by McTrollop on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:06:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (2.00 / 2)

There is a difference between not agreeing with them and being against them.

I hope you know that.

Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.

by lori on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:39:19 PM EST

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (none / 0)

She IS against them. She didn't just say she disagreed with their philosophies, she spoke of them as villains. This is completely inexcusable. I think people blow a lot of things out of proportion, but this is exactly what it appears to be, nothing less. Please stop pretending this is not that big a deal.

If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.

by vcalzone on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:48:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (2.00 / 2)

heck I used to think MoveOn was worthy of membership. They were PUSHING ME AWAY slowly, 'til I severed by chord PERMANENTLY, because they surely don't speak for me, this TRUE BLUE DEMOCRAT.

When they were distorting the Rush Holt paper ballot Bill(and push polling)....then distorting and push polling for support for the weak and stripped Iraq Bill for Nancy.....then their limited and restricted presidential debates......you could tell something happened to them and they were pushing their own agenda. Then it finally hit with that bat over my head. And they have gone down the same dark road against the party they claim they are alligned.

Like I said in Jonathan's post. Funny, but Hillary was the one sticking up for their freedom of speech and refused to vote in favor of condemning their General Betrayus ad. But, Obama couldn't even muster up any chutpah to give a vote.

I'd say they betrayed themselves.

by LindaSFNM on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:44:35 PM EST

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (2.00 / 1)

ITA - I was a charter member in moveon back in the 1990's and now I am trying to get off their listserv - I still cannot get off their weekly one :(

by colebiancardi on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:47:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

psssttt (none / 0)

Adjust your spam settings (that is what I did =)

If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi

by SevenStrings on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:03:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, it's a pain (2.00 / 1)

I think they have some unsubscribe options on their web site? I was a charter member as well but when the General Betray-us ad came out, I really profoundly disagreed with that, so I pulled up a recent message (had long ceased to read them, I admit) and found a link to be taken off their lists.
When I did that they gave me a drop down menu of "why did you leave us" responses, which didn't include any variant of "I DISAGREE with you." Oh well.

I don't know what the heck they even stand for or do, aside from being a conduit for money.

by daria g on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:03:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, it's a pain (none / 0)

I tried that and unchecked all the boxes and they STILL replied that I would get their weekly emails!!

by colebiancardi on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:05:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, it's a pain (none / 0)

Ouf, that sucks. Can you go up the food chain? Find a contact email for people at manager level and make noise about it, that should get the Web monkeys to fix things. (Speaking as a Web monkey myself.. not my favorite tactic but effective.)

by daria g on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:17:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (none / 0)

I was turned off by their "betray-us" ad, since I am a veteran that understands that we follow orders from civilian leadership.

I also want our party to have as BIG a tent as possible. That means HRC and OBAMA must come together. Neither can do it w/o the other. She just alienated that moveon.org segment . . . and like it or not . . . we need all hands on deck against McBush.

NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!

by Veteran75 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:48:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (2.00 / 2)

I doubt that she had anyone from moveon.org with her anyway.

I joined moveon.org when they first were formed in the 90's. I have been getting more and more uncomfortable. I've been trying to get them to stop sending me emails. I suppose they want to keep me on their list so that they can claim me as a member.

by Dave B on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:54:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

me too (none / 0)

I dropped then when the endorsed a primary candidate. They lost maybe a third of us then, at least that's the way the vote went, although I voted to not endorse, and i didn't vote on which one to endorse, at that point i dumped my membership, and i used to give them money. Like the DNC, why donate to those who don't think they need to represent you? Makes no sense to me.

Hillary - alternative energy

by anna shane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:09:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: me too (none / 0)

The DNC doesn't represent you... they do represent the downticket Democrats who desperately need our support this year...

I wish people would reconsider withholding money from the DNC... maybe give it to individual candidates...?

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:20:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

sorry (none / 0)

they're heading us into a train wreck. i've made it clear, if they want my money they have to seat Florida and figure out a way to count Michigan. Those states should have had a revote or they should be counted. I blame no one, I just want them counted. I am able to donate to specific candidates bypassing the DNC, and I will do that. And they will be candidates that want to reform the DNC and get rid of Howard and Donna. Democracy is not a spectator sport. I play with my checkbook, thank you very much.

Hillary - alternative energy

by anna shane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:27:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sorry (none / 0)

I like Howard.... his strategy seems to be working... turnout and all that...

Don't get me started on Florida though... as you can see by the tagline, I was there when that mess happened...

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:30:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

actually it's about.. (none / 0)

we can thank Barack for that, he's been great at keeping some interest in this contest, he's got star power. And Hillary, she's got a lot of supporters who follow her. She got me engaged. i think it's these two candidates that are making for the interest, and Howard's just there to depress us over Florida and Michigan. Used to love him, i was in his first 10,000, but he's turned into a hack. In a post-Brownie world hacks aren't attractive.

Hillary - alternative energy

by anna shane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:39:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: actually it's about.. (none / 0)

Oh good grief... no matter how much you dislike Howard Dean... DO NOT EVER compare him to Brownie....

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:11:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

She didnt alienate any MoveOn segment (2.00 / 1)

They were plenty alienated to begin with...

If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi

by SevenStrings on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:04:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (none / 0)

I am not a veteran, but I too was turned off by the betray us ad.

I was also turned off by all those who defended that ad (including Sen. Clinton, who now has my support) and all those who ducked the question of defending that ad (Sen. Obama).

If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi

by SevenStrings on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:07:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (2.00 / 0)

Clinton and Obama both voted for Boxer's amendment which was essentially the same as Cornyn's but did not mention Moveon.org.

Clinton later went on Meet the Press and denounced the advertisement. To be fair, she was running for President and this was a "gotcha" thing, so what was she supposed to say, I guess...

Sorry, but the only person who stood up for free speech in THAT ugly episode was a great Senator from Wisconsin... named Russ Feingold...

Credit where it is definitely due.

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:50:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (2.00 / 0)

WHY OH WHY...didn't Russ run for President?

by colebiancardi on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:52:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (none / 0)

He is unelectable... sad but true unfortunately.

Seriously he is... he does the right thing, which is not necessarily the best thing to do to take that next big leap. He isn't big on politically expedient or politically motivated stances.

But that is also okay... I love him in the Senate as a clear voice... when I am confused on an issue, I figure out Feingold's view of it through searches and it makes it clearer.

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:00:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who is the real Hillary? (none / 0)

None of them. She is fake and changes persona's weekly depending on what the focus groups are saying. That's her problem.

by Voxlisa999 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:47:55 PM EST

Re: Who is the real Hillary? (2.00 / 1)

huh, really?

so, you've never changed your mind since you could think for yourself, right? Perhaps an organization you belonged to but changed radically never made you rethink your membership, correct?

wow.

by colebiancardi on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:51:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is the real Hillary? (none / 0)

How did they change from April 2007 to FEB 2008??

Just asking . . . I don't know the answer, as I am not a member.

by FOB92 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:58:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is the real Hillary? (2.00 / 1)

it has been getting more uncomfortable. moveon used to be for all democrats and progressives, but now it is ObamaTime.

same with the Nation. I now put my Nation emails into my junk folder. It is disheartening to read that someone like myself, a proud liberal who has been a member of the democratic party her whole life, voted straight democratic ticket, gave tons of money to democratic candidates, organizations and causes, to be smeared as not being a real democrat due to my support & admiration for Hillary Clinton.

whatever.

by colebiancardi on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:03:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is the real Hillary? (2.00 / 1)

just to clarify - I don't mind that moveon & the Nation write nice pieces on Obama, but it used to be that they defended democrats.

by colebiancardi on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:09:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is the real Dem? (none / 0)

and ironically it's Obama's plans which are the least progressive. I don't even think he is a real Democrat -- especially in the New Deal sense. A lot of his supporters sound more libertarian than progressive Democrat.

by moevaughn on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:20:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is the real Dem? (none / 0)

McCain isn't an option.

by FOB92 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:22:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is the real Dem? (none / 0)

His voting record is more liberal than hers... only slightly granted, but still to the Left...

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:24:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is the real Dem? (2.00 / 1)

but his proposals on his website run more to the right of hers.

a republican friend of mine, who dislikes both of them, stated that Hillary is more progressive whereas Obama is a luddite

but that was his take. But I do believe that Hillary's proposals are more progressive in the vein of FDR.

by colebiancardi on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:33:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is the real Dem? (2.00 / 2)

Obama has done some amazing legislative work that is really directed toward working for the people.

Here are some of my favorites:

The Lugar-Obama Act works toward nuclear and conventional weapons disarmament.

The Coburn-Obama Act gives us transparent federal spending, accessible from the internet.

In both the US and Illinois Senate he has been a critical player in passing signigicant ethics legislation.

Obama passed legislation with Senator Jim Talent (R-MO) to give gas stations a tax credit for installing E85 ethanol refueling pumps.

In Illinois, he created a working, affordable health care plan that covers 70,000 kids and 84,000 adults, where all kids qualify for $40 per child. Obama sponsored and passed this legislation, working with Rod R. Blagojevich(IL Gov.) See All Kids http://www.allkids.com/ . It is a model for a workable, affordable national health care.

He passed a law to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they stopped. The law was at first very controversial, but due to Obama's skills as a negotiator and bipartisanships, he won the support of the police. During his 2004 general election campaign for U.S. Senate, he won the endorsement of the Illinois Fraternal Order of Police, whose president credited Obama for his active engagement with police organizations in enacting death penalty reforms.

These are just my favorites.

That's a pretty good record. He doesn't have Hillary's history with building the party, but he's no schlep. We will be well served by him if he is elected.

by Kiku on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:32:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is the real Hillary? (none / 0)

To be honest, an organization I used to belong to but changed for me was not Moveon, but NOW...

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:05:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who is the real Hillary? (none / 0)

Me too.

Moveon actually has my gratitude because they stood up to Joe Lieberman, that CT still voted in (not me), but they stood up to him.

NOW, has been OTT. It's fine for them to endorse Hillary, but the NY approach of calling women who don't support Hillary "traitors" was completely out of line.

by Kiku on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:37:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Boo McCain (2.00 / 0)

He is opposed to the 21st Century GI bill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3epBpwgz s8

Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!

by Student Guy on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:48:01 PM EST

Re: Boo McCain (2.00 / 1)

Not that I needed another reason . . . but I will keep reminding my fellow veterans of this. Maybe I can get them to vote for Bob Barr . . . as they are a lost cause for HRC or Obama.

NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!

by Veteran75 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:49:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boo McCain (2.00 / 1)

My dad's a vet and a recovering Republican... He's voting for Obama in the NC primary....

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:52:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary.... (2.00 / 1)

realized that move-on is full of loones and kicked them to the curb.

by soyousay on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:50:52 PM EST

Re: Hillary.... (2.00 / 0)

I disagree... if she was kicking them to the curb, she would have done this in public... This was a closed door meeting.

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:53:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary.... (2.00 / 0)

I think that is the point. She says one thing in public, but another behind closed doors.

She said YES YES YES that Obama will beat McCain, but she says the opposite behind closed doors.

I will also vote for her, but I won't be proud of it. McCain is the real enemy, don't forget that!!

by FOB92 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:56:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary.... (none / 0)

Oh I'm doing my usual straight ticket Dem vote this year... hopefully with a lot of company....

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:06:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Worse than that.... (none / 0)

Obama says one thing in public and another thing in public. He told Stephanopoulos he denounced Rev. Wright and then changed his answer and said he denounced Wright's statements only.... Only AFTER being questioned again.

BTW, "Move-On" has a bad reputation. I don't know anyone that says...I'm a proud to be a Move-on member," with the exception of politicians trying to score points. :D

by soyousay on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:11:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Worse than that.... (none / 0)

I'm a proud Moveon member...

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:21:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and that's why your an Obama supporter.... (none / 0)

he's far to the left. America is more conservative than that...IMO, he'll lose the GE.

by soyousay on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:24:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and that's why your an Obama supporter.... (none / 0)

That is too funny... upthread someone is questioning if he is really a Democrat, that he is to conservative, and you are saying he's too far left..

Actually I am supporting the nominee.. would I prefer Obama? Sure... but I will work my behind off for Clinton if she gets the nomination...

And actually, I am, what used to be termed, fiscal conservative (balanced budget), social liberal...

But I like Moveon's purpose... they counter the Rightwing Noise Machine... some things are cringeworthy, but I can say that about almost anyone, including my husband...

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:28:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and that's why your an Obama supporter.... (none / 0)

Penn is neo-con, and Wolfson is a progressive . . . decide what Obama is!

NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!

by Veteran75 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:43:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and that's why your an Obama supporter.... (none / 0)

Barack Obama of Illinois had the most liberal voting record in 2006. He was more liberal than 86 percent of the Senate.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thefix/20 07/03/mirror_mirror_on_the_wall_whos.htm l

by soyousay on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:55:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and that's why your an Obama supporter.... (none / 0)

I understand that... other Clinton supporters do not however because they say he is less of a Democrat than she is....

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:13:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sweet. (none / 0)

Keep up the insults. It'll make the job of ending her campaign so much easier for we loonies.

"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis

by MBNYC on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:58:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sweet. (none / 0)

Yeah . . . that wasn't a very productive thing to say. Moveon.org may be too left for me, but I want their votes.

by FOB92 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:59:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sweet. (2.00 / 2)

If I remember correctly, when I used to correspond with moveon members, a lot of them were turned off by Gore and voted Nader in 2000.

so, some of them do leave the democratic party to vote independent.

by colebiancardi on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:10:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sweet. (none / 0)

Sadly I think Nader will earn some of their votes if HRC gets the nomination . . . but maybe not. I think Obama has the nomination almost locked, but if he loses it . . . HRC will almost have no choice but to offer VP.

NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!

by Veteran75 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:14:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So you think.... (none / 0)

Clinton supporters are going to line up and support Obama? I seriously doubt it. I know some that see McCain as a moderate and will vote for him, others will just stay home.

by soyousay on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:21:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So you think.... (none / 0)

If hey see McCain as moderate, I'm trying to figure out how they are supporting Clinton in the first place...

Must not be too familiar with his record.... The press touts hi as a maverick, but when it comes to rd meat issues, he is as conservative as they come...

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:23:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Most people... (none / 0)

aren't policy wonks or political bloggers. McCain does come off as a moderate if you don't follow politics closely.

by soyousay on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:29:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most people... (none / 0)

If you say so... but his record lately is belying his maverick record previously... I think he will get owned in the g.e. with all of the switcheroos he's made to pander to the conservative base...

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:33:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not just me that says so.... (none / 0)

Gallup does too.

If McCain vs. Obama, 28% of Clinton Backers Go for McCain

http://www.blogrunner.com/snapshot/D/4/1 if_mccain_vs_obama_28_of_clinton_backer s_go_for_mccain

by soyousay on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:47:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not just me that says so.... (none / 0)

What can I say except two things... well three actually...

Everyone is free to make up their own mind...

They are going to have a severe case of "buyers remorse"

That's just sad

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:09:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmmmm.... (none / 0)

I hope they don't stay home. There are plenty of down-ticket Dems to be voting for. My plan, if BO gets the nom, is to work for Nader, work for the down-ticket Dems, then write in Clinton for the GE. I don't want BO anywhere near the White House and if others feel the same way they need to work really hard for the down-ticket Dems so that there is a whopping majority in Congress that can keep McCain in check.

by Soitgoes on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:06:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmmmm.... (none / 0)

Which will help us exactly not at all since the President chooses the SCOTUS nominees...

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:10:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmmmm.... (none / 0)

Not into the scare tactics. All Supreme Court nominees have to pass through a hearing. Support the down-ticket Dems to keep a check on McCain and we go a long way in covering that potential problem.

by Soitgoes on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:13:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah, Nader (none / 0)

That tells us everything we need to know.

by ReillyDiefenbach on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:23:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ah, Nader (none / 0)

I doubt it.

by Soitgoes on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:50:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmmmm.... (none / 0)

I could give a damn about scaring you... The hearing that would be controlled by whatever Democrats we put into Congress is with a nominee sent to us by John McCain...

And you think we have control over the situation. Do the words Justice Clarence Thomas mean anything to you?

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:22:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmmmm.... (none / 0)

And does Bork mean anything to you?

by Soitgoes on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:10:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmmmm.... (none / 0)

Yeah... we blocked one... gee, what a record...!

My point is that any nominee John McCain sends to be confirmed is not going to be okay with me... why? Because John Freakin McCain chose the nominee...! John McCain's ideal justice is Scalia....!

We need a Democrat in the White House and we need to expand our majorities in Congress. I could give a damn if we nominate a Twinkie at this point so long as they have a "D" after their name and progressive values.

Sorry you do not agree, but that is my opinion on the matter.

Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...

by JenKinFLA on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:21:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmmmm.... (none / 0)

I agree that generally it would be greatly better to have a Dem in the WH. I just don't want it to be BO, so I'm going to try and stop him. As I've said, in doing so I take on the responsibility of voting and working hard for down-ticket Dems. That I will do.

by Soitgoes on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 04:08:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmmmm.... (1.00 / 1)

Stop Troll rating me for saying things that yo disagree with moron. Read the rules regarding troll ratings you fucking twit.

You can troll rate this comment if you like since I have pointed out that you are a mindless fucking moron.

Government derives its power from those that it governs.

by lockewasright on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:36:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So you think.... (none / 0)

Hillary said in this last debate that she will work hard for a Democrat in office, even if that means Obama.

I understand loyalty to a candidate, and that makes emotions high right now, but Obama is also a good Democrat. He's done good things for the American people, and will continue to do so. He's doing amazing things for the party, and has brought in lots of new voters. He actually reminds me of Bill Clinton when Bill first ran.

Once we move past the primaries that pit us against each other, there will be less tension, and I hope that we can come together. We need to work together, for the good of the country, for the good of the party.

by Kiku on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:46:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sweet. (2.00 / 1)

It may be sweet for "loonies;you may win the battle but I doubt you'll win the war.

by soyousay on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:18:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And as a Clinton supporter (1.00 / 2)

you have some familiarity with losing, don't you?

"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis

by MBNYC on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:36:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And as a Clinton supporter (none / 0)

even though that comment was not direct to me personally, I felt the need to respond.

It isn't as a Clinton supporter. It is the fact that in all of the presidential races, only one democratic nominee WON the WH in the elections I voted in.

Mondale - nope
Dukakis - nope
B. Clinton - yep (twice!!)
Gore - nope
Kerry - nope

so, yeah, 3 out of the 5 were really liberals. Two of them, Clinton & Gore, were moderates.

so, tell me, what is the trend for liberals to win in the WH?

by colebiancardi on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:40:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And as a Clinton supporter (none / 0)

oh, and Gore DID win in 2000, but it got stolen. So, in a way, the moderate choices did win, but only one got into the WH

by colebiancardi on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:41:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for the zero. (none / 0)

Glad to see you have such faith in your arguments that you need to hide completely inoffensive comments, while overlooking the "loonie" parent thereof.

As to those arguments themselves, you overlook one crucial aspect: campaign performance. Mondale and Dukakis ran lousy campaigns in a conservative era. Clinton ran a good campaign in 1992 in a favorable issue environment.

Today, another Clinton is again in a favorable issue environment, but running a lousy campaign. Obama is running in the same environment, and came out of nowhere to crush the inevitable campaign.

And lastly, don't kid yourself. Clinton isn't a moderate. She's as much or more a liberal as Obama is, some contrived re-branding notwithstanding.

"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis

by MBNYC on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:57:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for the zero. (none / 0)

you got a zero for calling Hillary supporters losers.

by colebiancardi on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:58:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not really. (none / 0)

I said you folks know something about losing. Which you do, because you are losing. Not at all the same thing, but hey - you overlooked the loonie thing, and it's a primary where I'm on the other team and have to be punished for that. I understand.

"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis

by MBNYC on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:04:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not really. (none / 0)

Hillary hasn't lost. Obama hasn't won.

so your argument at this point is incorrect - which YOU overlooked. The loonie thing - hey, I've been called that before and it doesn't offend me one bit - which is why I didn't care about it.

but the losing thing? You bechta - every other time, I went with the flow of the democratic party and voted for people that I didn't vote for in the primary. So now, I am fighting FOR my choice and also the choice of millions of others.

You got punished for pulling the trigger too soon - and your comment was a complete snark on an otherwise civilized thread.

by colebiancardi on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:14:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please. (none / 0)

"I am walking to the store". I am not at the store yet, but am in the ongoing process of going there. "Hillary is losing the election". The next deductive step is yours to take.

It's absolutely your right to "fight", as you put it; a part of me even admires that. At the same time, those of us who know the odds of that fight - as you do as well, I'm sure - are free to point these out to you. At this point, Hillary can't win, in the sense of taking actions that might bring her ahead. Obama has to lose, somehow, and while you folks hold on and wait for that to happen, the campaign goes on.

As to punishing, please. If I were given to being thin-skinned, I'd zap every comment of yours in this thread for ratings abuse. That other poster called MoveOn members loonies. Now, I didn't feel like a loonie when I signed on to their petition to stop impeachment days after it was launched, and I don't feel like one now. This whole episode illustrates the nasty approach taken by some; with us or against us and all that.

"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis

by MBNYC on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 10:49:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please. (none / 0)

nd it's a primary where I'm on the other team and have to be punished for that. I understand.

you were the one who mentioned "punished" and an incorrect reason why I rated you the way I did.

I don't go around zapping comments for the heck of it - that was an offensive comment, because you meant it in a snarky way. The tone of it was not in keeping with the tone of this diary up to that point.

yes - I understand your beef with being called a loonie - I as well joined up with moveon back in the days of the impeachment. And again, since I belong (still do, as I can't get off their list!), the loonie comment was directed at me as well.

I didn't find offense to it. But I did find offense to your snarky comment that the poster had experience with losing just because they supported Hillary.

by colebiancardi on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 02:41:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for the zero. (none / 0)

oh, and I am glad that ONE Obama supporter has finally claimed that Hillary is a LIBERAL - a democrat.

I will bookmark your comment for future use

by colebiancardi on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:59:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course she is. (none / 0)

At least she was eight weeks ago in more liberal states. Does anyone take her various messaging shticks - "ooh, guns, I love guns" - seriously? I don't. Neither do voters.

Hillary's core ideological position is that she'll do or say what she thinks is required to get what she wants at a given moment. That's not liberal or conservative - it's transactional.

"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis

by MBNYC on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:10:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Of course she is. (none / 0)

and so is Obama's - he panders just as much. It's politics, baby. You have to appeal to the US, not just to a small bit of the US.

by colebiancardi on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:15:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yup. (none / 0)

That's why Obama ran all those ads about Tuzla. Oh, wait.

I'm just really and deeply amused. A few weeks ago, you could have cut the froth over those mailers he used in Ohio with a knife. Oh teh noez, he's such a rightwinger! Now, Hillary's running ads ripping him on god and guns and being out of touch like all those big-city liberal elitist snobs.

Consistency clearly is over-rated, except for the froth part. We'll get plenty of that for the duration, I'm sure.

"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis

by MBNYC on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 10:54:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yup. (none / 0)

his campaign had memo's and pushed the Tuzla issue.

tv ads aren't the only way to push a matter

by colebiancardi on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 02:43:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And as a Clinton supporter (2.00 / 0)

In this campaign, Obama is running more like Bill did. That bodes well for him.

Hillary is on a different track.

by Kiku on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:51:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Uprated (2.00 / 0)

to counter HR abuse.

by ReillyDiefenbach on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:25:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (none / 0)

I financially support Move-On...joined in the early 2000s. I wish they did not endorse in the Primary. However, It does not suit Clinton well to bash a group of 3 million (with an active membership of 1.5 million) when only 30 Million People Will Vote in the Dem Primary.

Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.

by CardBoard on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:25:57 PM EST

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (2.00 / 1)

some of those active membership members are members TRYING to get off their membership rosters.

like me

by colebiancardi on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:31:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There's a place at the bottom... (none / 0)

of "Move-On" spam you click to remove...They send another email saying something like "ARE YOU SURE? WE NEED YOUR HELP" can't remember the exact words....Just click "yes" remove and done, last email I received was back in Jan. :D

by soyousay on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:37:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I never really joined... (none / 0)

Years ago, I asked a question and they put me on their mailing list...I guess they decided to enlist me. Anyway, I tolarated the spam until the Hillary bashing started...The end; I dump the spam.

by soyousay on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:32:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (none / 0)

Moveon debunked the Hillary accusing MoveON of opposing the Afghanistan war.

I do not agree with every single thing MoveOn says. But to marginalise a big entity that has been overall a plus to the party anad whine about the money flow when Hilalry started this campaign apologetically with a big money advantage reminds me why I started to despise her.

Dont worry. If she pulls this off, I still wont vote for McCain. I will still campaign against McCain.

by Pravin on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:38:46 PM EST

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (none / 0)

As for Moveon? We have generated 10's of millions for Dems and important issues...and will do more this year..

As for the General P ad?
The General was and is a shill..The fucking surge is working? Moveon had the courage to call it out as it was. As a disabled vet I was proud to pony up $25 to help with the ad.

The standard they set for endorsement was 70%.
They sent out the notice and no just joining to vote folks were allowed.

After 2008, this wing of our Party will be through. http://www.dlc.org/

tap yer toes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGoEcIEv3 _Y

"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie

by nogo war on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:41:47 PM EST

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (none / 0)

you might want to look at all the people, including Al Gore and Harold Ford, Jr, who are members of the DLC.

they aren't demons, you know.

by colebiancardi on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:05:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (none / 0)

Have a good week-end...enjoy the sun and never forget
http://icasualties.org/oif/

"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie

by nogo war on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:48:07 PM EST

From Ben Smith (none / 0)

Ben Smith - notes some irony regarding HRC's condemnation of Moveon.org...:

"But there's some irony in the scorn for MoveOn, whom Hillary courted and which was founded, after all, to save her husband from impeachment. What's striking here is the the "us" and "them" view -- the almost cultural scorn -- toward a section of the Democratic Party to whom, at times in the White House, Hillary was seen as the ambassador for the more conservative Bill."

I can tell you - without reservation - Moveon.org is THE reason Kerry won WI in 2004. I worked with them. And by the way - Moveon may be young - but its members span all age groups, ethnicities, etc. so those of you trying to characterize 3 million people as young activists who yell at old people - calm down and relax, just a little.

We don't need a thinker. We need a doer: someone who'll act without considering the consequences. (H.J. Simpson)

by Newcomer on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:51:05 PM EST

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (none / 0)

I've been reading my kids Aesop's Fables lately, and the story of the Fox and grapes came up. The fox wanted the grapes, but couldn't jump high enough, while the squirrels, birds, and insects were able to reach the grapes. The fox stormed off, commenting how horrible grapes were.

Hillary has to do this to seem viable. She has to discredit every avenue she has lost to explain it to her questioning supporters. That's why we've heard "it's just Iowa", Jesse Jackson did the same thing, those are red states, it's the latte crowd, it's the small states...

I have to give her credit for being tough and determined. It takes a lot of balls to get up there and keep going when the odds are so small. I don't think it's the right decision, but it's certainly a tough one. Like she said, she's a fighter.

I do give her credit, not my vote, but credit.

by Kiku on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:04:48 AM EST

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (none / 0)

Women don't have balls. I think it's a sexist comment to use this common parlance. In my Women's Studies environment we tend to steer clear of that saying altogether. There are much better ways to say a woman has strength.

by Soitgoes on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:20:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary praises MoveOn.org (w/AUDIO) (none / 0)

I will also hold my nose and vote if I must, but I don't hold much hope for the U.S. if that happens.

by URKnot on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:40:12 AM EST

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