Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism for Her Struggles

I'm decidedly in the camp that believes that increased Democratic activism is a good thing, both for the party and the nation as a whole. With more of the Democratic base voting and volunteering and contributing, the Democrats have a much better shot at winning the White House with more than 50.1 percent of the vote -- a feat they haven't accomplished in 44 years -- and thus begin to enact much of the progressive change this country so desperately needs at this juncture. Apparently, though, some believe that increased Democratic activism isn't wholly a good thing, that there are negative consequences to these voters becoming more engaged in the American democracy. Here's The Huffington Post:

At a small closed-door fundraiser after Super Tuesday, Sen. Hillary Clinton blamed what she called the "activist base" of the Democratic Party -- and MoveOn.org in particular -- for many of her electoral defeats, saying activists had "flooded" state caucuses and "intimidated" her supporters, according to an audio recording of the event obtained by The Huffington Post.

"Moveon.org endorsed [Sen. Barack Obama] -- which is like a gusher of money that never seems to slow down," Clinton said to a meeting of donors. "We have been less successful in caucuses because it brings out the activist base of the Democratic Party. MoveOn didn't even want us to go into Afghanistan. I mean, that's what we're dealing with. And you know they turn out in great numbers. And they are very driven by their view of our positions, and it's primarily national security and foreign policy that drives them. I don't agree with them. They know I don't agree with them. So they flood into these caucuses and dominate them and really intimidate people who actually show up to support me."

Senator Clinton's remarks depart radically from the traditional position of presidential candidates who in the past have celebrated high levels of turnout by party activists and partisans as a harbinger for their own party's success -- regardless of who is the eventual nominee -- in the general election showdown.

The comments also contradict Clinton's previous statements praising this year's elevated Democratic turnout in primaries and caucuses, and appear to blame her caucus defeats on newly energized grassroots voter groups that she has lauded in the past as "lively participants" in American democracy.

[...]

The disclosure of Clinton's remarks disparaging the prominence of party activists in the caucus process comes after she repeatedly suggested that Obama's electability had been compromised because he had allegedly offended other key Democratic constituencies.

This is pretty remarkable audio, Clinton attacking MoveOn -- incorrectly, in fact -- for purportedly opposing the Afghanistan War when that was not at all the case.

But even more astounding than Clinton's specific attacks on MoveOn, a grassroots organization founded to defend her husband against the Republican power-grab that was the 1998 impeachment, an organization that is made up of more than three million activists, most of whom are diehard in their loyalty to the Democratic Party, is the fact that Clinton is maligning the Democratic base, specifically those who have been driven to the polls at least in part in response to the Iraq War.

It's not clear to me what it is about the view of American foreign policy held by these party regulars that Clinton disagrees with -- whether it was the view that Congress should not have authorized the Bush administration to commence military action against Iraq, whether it is that Congress should stand up against the Bush administration so that it cannot do the same against Iraq, or something else. I would actually be interested in hearing what that disagreement is.

I would also be interested in hearing more about this so-called "intimidation," if Clinton believes that it is a bad thing that voter turnout in almost every primary and caucus this year has set new records.

It could be that there is a valid explanation for these comments, that they were taken out of context, that they don't really reflect her views of the Democratic base and the netroots, that they were merely the result of the inevitable exhaustion brought on by near-constant campaigning. I'd like to hear it. But until I do, it's hard not to come away from these comments with the sense that Clinton holds a key part of the Democratic base in contempt.



Display:


The upside down world (2.00 / 10)

MoveOn has done a lot of good since their founding.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:18:28 PM EST

Re: The upside down world (2.00 / 1)

I don't think the average Central PA voter will care about this . . . but HRC does not need a distraction like this. It will eat up time on the Sunday AM shows, and Obama's base will raise a few million off this insult.

I am not big into Moveon.org, but I welcome progressives and anti-war conservatives into my tent.


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:13:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I hope she pulls out of this. (none / 0)

This is the kind of talk that marked the beginning of the end of Joe Lieberman's sanity.


by dystopianfuturetoday on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:17:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She's not only slamming MO (2.00 / 3)

She's slamming party activists in general, and she uses MO as an example. How many MO members live in Iowa? Enough to bring her to third place there?

She has lost the core of the democratic support tonight. No candidate can win without the party activists, they are the heart that pumps blood up in the body.

Moreover, she is again using the Republican talking points. If she wants to run as McCain VP, she is doing well. But is she wants to run as democratic nominee...


by Fairy Tale on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:49:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Again and again with the "misstatements" (none / 0)

MoveOn never opposed the Afghan invasion.  She just keeps pulling stuff out.  Way to piss off the base, Hillary.  


by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:39:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is bad for her. (2.00 / 5)

It's going to be tough.

Thank you, Jonothan, for FP'ing this.


by nwgates on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:18:50 PM EST

Re: This is bad for her. (2.00 / 1)

I think most of the people offended by this aren't really in her camp to begin with.  And since her winning the nomination is pretty much not gonna happen at this point, I'm having a hard time seeing why she'd even say it.  Is it just sour-grapes whining and ass-covering excuses for why she lost?  Seems pointless.  Actually seems like something Bill would have said.


by Whash on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:26:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is bad for her. (none / 0)

She said it a couple months ago, after super-tuesday.


by nwgates on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:31:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is bad for her. (2.00 / 1)

It is hard to reconcile this statement with the claim by her supporters that she leads among registered democrats.  Now, if you think about it, that isn't exactly a reason to think she's a lot more electable -- the democratic base is going to support the party nominee, so the one group she cites a lead in are actually the easiest ones for Obama to pull on behind him when he unifies the party next month -- but going after the party base is a recipe for disaster.  
   
by Headlight on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:41:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Isn't it obvious? (2.00 / 10)

Sen. Clinton clearly feels that you're either with her, or against her.

Sound familiar?


by RidleyGriff on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:19:55 PM EST

Re: Isn't it obvious? (1.00 / 6)

yep same drum beat we hear from BHO's camp


by zerosumgame on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:22:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't it obvious? (2.00 / 1)

Mmmm.... That would be an interesting point if it was borne out by actual events.

Would you care to elaborate with some examples?


by RidleyGriff on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:30:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't it obvious? (none / 0)

Can you please document your silly comment.

The reference of course was to GW Bush.


by vermontprog on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:32:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is she trying to create a Sista Souljah moment? (2.00 / 7)

It wouldn't surprise me. But it sure fits into her history of triangulation. You can bet that, instead of apologizing, she will go all Faux News and run with this and try to make it a Sista Souljah moment.

Considering how Faux News has become the darling of Hillary supporters lately, you can bet she will cater to them by trying to ride this to her advantage.

I'll have my popcorn ready.


by John Campanelli on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:21:33 PM EST

Re: Is she trying to create a Sista Souljah moment (none / 0)

That's what I was thinking. The problem is that Sista Souljah was one random poet and rapper who went overboard and MoveOn represents millions of core Democratic voters. She's already lost Dem-leaning Independents. This strategy just attacks registered Democrats. Believe it or not, a lot of liberal Democrats have voted for her and will vote for her in PA. She is not and has never been a real Reagan Democrat candidate, even though she has backed into advocating for them as she's lost support from other parts of the party.

The anger she has here is that she failed to organize for caucuses, and so she is blaming it on committed party activists who got the vote out. We can argue the merits of caucuses until the cows come home, but the assumption going in was that Clinton would dominate them with all of her institutional support. She just never counted on how weak that institutional support was outside MA, CA and OH.


by elrod on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:11:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow (2.00 / 3)

This is obviously not as harmful to her as Bittergate was (potentially) to Obama.  But this is bad.  So she basically is saying that she wishes fewer Democrats were voting.  The only thing is, very few of her supporters are true blue liberals; she is working on the centrist/conservative part of the base, so this probably won't hurt her that much (just as Obama is working with the more liberal part).


by ProgressiveDL on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:22:09 PM EST

Re: Wow (2.00 / 5)

This may be more harmful than "Bittergate" in the short term because we're still in the primary contest and she's bad mouthing people who actually participate in and effect the primary results - i.e. democractic activists - whereas Obama merely insulted rednecks as a whole.  


by ruskin on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:24:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Some of her supporters are (none / 0)

actually entertaining the fantasy that Hillary is more progressive than Obama.  I would hope that this incident will put paid to that pipedream.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:53:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (2.00 / 10)

I just posted a summary of how Moveon was not against the Afghanistan war in the open thread:

http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/4/18/1 84931/076/23#23

Jonathan made my points a lot better than I did, but I do have some links backing me up on the non-opposition to the Afghanistan war.  


Saxby Chambliss
by bosdcla14 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:22:19 PM EST

Umm (1.50 / 2)

they did.  There were Obama intimidators all over my caucus in CO.  


by linc on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:23:14 PM EST

Re: Umm (2.00 / 4)

I have seen various posts from both sides alleging voter intimidation without an iota of evidence to back up the charge...

It makes me nervous because I am back in Ohio now, where I was in 2004 where there were documented cases of voter intimidation in Democratic districts...

Substantiate the claim with details or cease... we may need to investigate voter intimidation this g.e.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:32:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

At my Washington State caucus (2.00 / 1)

the turnout was so great we had to have several precincts meet outside the building.  I've been around a long time, and I've not seen anything like it.  Hundreds of people showed up.  The Hillary supporters who spoke were treated with the utmost courtesy.  No eyeball rolling, no snorting, nothing.  Many, many people spoke, but the best was one youngster who got up and gave a little testimony about what the Obama candidacy meant to him that had the whole lot of us tearing up like babies.
 We then proceeded to hand Obama a crushing victory, which we hope to improve on tomorrow at the state convention, as several delegate slots are on the bubble.

See you there, Washington State delegates!

As for the charge of intimidation, that's just so much desperate horseshit, in my estimation.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:06:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: At my Washington State caucus (2.00 / 1)

We had a similar experience here in West Seattle - no bullying by either side.


by ruskin on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:10:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Umm (2.00 / 4)

Did you report it?

Let's see some verified proof...otherwise, you're full of it.


by Elise on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:47:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That is a crap argument (1.00 / 2)

about something very subjective.  Prove to me that there were not- otherwise you are full of crap.


by linc on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:31:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That is a crap argument (none / 0)

voter intimidation is not "very subjective."  It is against federal law and a crime.


by shalca on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:46:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That is a crap argument (none / 0)

Linc, you are nothing if not consistent.
Never substantiating anything and then challenging others to prove your BS wrong.
by haystax calhoun on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:53:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes (none / 0)

and you rule reason and substantiation.  Perfect Obama and his perfect supporters- can do no wrong.


by linc on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 02:34:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That is a crap argument (none / 0)

No, that is not how these things work. The burden falls upon those who make the claim to show its truth.


by tessellated on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:22:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That is a crap argument (2.00 / 1)

It could be that the very presence of new and diverse voters was in and of itself intimidating to Clinton supporters.  This whole election would have been a lot more fair if all those crazy Obama activists had stayed home and allowed nature to take its course.


by anevarez on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 02:51:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That is a crap argument (none / 0)

Spot on.


by interestedbystander on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 02:59:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please expand upon this (none / 0)

I think voting against Clinton at a caucus = intimidation.  There certainly haven't been any news reports of thuggery, so far as I know.


by rfahey22 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:52:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Umm (none / 0)

Same thing in Houston


by suzieg on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:21:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (1.00 / 12)

You have to admit that some of what she says is true. Obama has offended lots of key democratic constituencies. And isn't she talking about caucuses not primaries. No one would dispute that caucuses are more about getting activists to vote than representative of the party as a whole.

I think no one has more comtempt for democrats than Obama. He even goes so far as trash the party. Obama acts like he's ashamed to be a democrat.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:23:29 PM EST

Re: Clinton (1.33 / 3)

True, and a lot of what Obama said about rednecks was true but, he still shouldn't have said it.  She'll pay a price for this - it's just a question of how big a price.  


by ruskin on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:26:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, she will pay (none / 0)

All of 2 dollars and forty seven cents...

plus tax!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:28:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hmmm.. (2.00 / 11)

Who is growing the party, bringing in new people?

Who is energizing younger voters to vote Democrat?

Barack Obama.

If by "has contempt for", you mean "re-energizing and setting up the future success of", then sure, Obama's all over it.

Otherwise, you are incorrect.  The only person betraying Democrat ideals is Senator Clinton.


by RidleyGriff on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:26:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm.. (1.00 / 7)

Obama isn't growing the party. He's actually shrinking the party. Look at his demographics. They aren't good. He's not setting us up for success, he's setting us up for failure. He's energized the Dukakis coalition and that's about it.

Obama has betrayed Democrats continually. Does he even put the fact that he's a Democrat in his ads? He didn't here in GA. You have a wierd defintion of things.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:47:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm.. (2.00 / 1)

Shrinking the party?  You got a link to that?


by RidleyGriff on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:04:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm.. (2.00 / 3)

About the only thing that seems shrunk around here is your capacity to reason.  There are higher turnouts now than there have been for any democrat.  Given the numbers supporting Obama, I think it's fair to say that the numbers today are better than they were in 1992 or 1996.  


by zadura on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:11:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama field offices have been... (2.00 / 1)

registering new Democrats for months.

Blasting Moveon is a GOP talking point. Screwing up their position re: Afghanistan is straight out of Rush Limbaugh's play book.

Hillary lost the nomination 6 weeks ago. And Bill tarnishes his legacy more and more the further we move along.


by johnnyappleseed on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:30:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm.. (2.00 / 1)

He's running in the Democratic Primary for President, I think people figured it out a long time ago.  How about your ballot?  Did it say Democratic, because mine sure did?

You're trying to tell me that the person who insulted a major segment (3.2 million) members of the party is more loyal to the party because other didn't mention he was a Democrat enough times?  I am sorry this is utter horseshit.  Say didn't mean; say she did; I don't care.  But don't tell me she is more loyal to a party that she just insulted.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:13:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (2.00 / 4)

ga6thDem, you're being pathetic in this thread. first you said it wasn't true, it must be from the Obama campaign. you were proven wrong, but ceetainly didn't issue a retraction or apology for your dishonest smear of the campaign.

then, in response to CLINTON saying the Democratic acivists are the problem, you claim Obam acts ashamed to be democrat.

would it kill you to tell the truth?


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:31:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (1.33 / 3)

I scanned the article. That's what I get for that.

Obama does act like he's ashamed to be a democrat. Has he ever said that he's proud to be a democrat? Not that I've heard. Of course, that's probably not a bad thing in the long run.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:49:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (2.00 / 1)

Ga6thDem -- You conclude that because you've never heard Obama say "I'm proud to be a Democrat" that he's ashamed of being a Democrat?  That's ridiculous!  He is what he is.  I don't go around saying "I'm proud to be a Democrat."  My very being a Democrat should be proof enough.  If I wasn't proud I'd be an independent or something else.  

Ga6thDem, it'll soon be over.  Obama nation will accept you when you decide to join us.    


by froggyman on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:37:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (none / 0)

You have issues with logic. In particular you seem to be having trouble with negative proofs/appeals to ignorance.

Try reading this


by anevarez on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 03:00:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (none / 0)

Maybe he should have a frickin pin made that

says "I'm proud to be a democrat." This should be

worn right next to the flag pin that he should be

wearing at all times!!!


"Beauty, more than bitterness, makes the heart break." Sara Teasdale
by april34fff on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 11:40:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (2.00 / 1)

If it doesn't harm Obama...then yes, it would kill Ga6th to tell the truth.


by Elise on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:50:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"trash the party" (2.00 / 1)

What the hell are you talking about?


Your old role is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a changing.
by Travis Stark on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (2.00 / 1)

Unlike the "bitter" statement, this wasn't a poorly phrased observation easily taken out of context for political gain.

This was an direct verbal assault on a key democratic constituency.


by Huck on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:54:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (1.00 / 3)

Are you kidding? The "bitter" statement wasn't taken out of context. You can listen to the whole audio. And I don't know why Obama supporters think it's okay to trash blue collar democrats.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:03:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (2.00 / 1)

I'm not an Obama supporter. I am a blue collar Democrat from a longtime union family. I've listened to the audio. Not only do I disagree with your assertion, but polling taken on the subject disagrees.

However, that's distracting from the matter at hand -- Democratic activists being trashed by Hillary.

So, by your own statements, it's okay to trash some Democrats. Hypocrisy at its finest.


by Huck on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:16:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (2.00 / 1)

In 1995 Hillary said "Srew Em" talking about blue collar workers.  Hillary has contemtp for blue collar workers and moveon.org voters.  What democratic voters does Hillary not have contempt for??  


by Spanky on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:20:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (none / 0)

And that's why I wouldn't express fake outrage, real outrage, or even surprise that Hillary made those anti-activist or "screw 'em" statements.

People who feel entitled do that when they feel they've been crossed by the "little people".


Let the children lose it Let the children use it Let all the children boogie
by toyomama on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:38:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (none / 0)

Ah. When pundits and politicians refer to single-issue voters and wedge-issues you're offended?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:23:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (none / 0)

What democratic constituencies has he offended and how?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:10:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Does not compute (2.00 / 1)

Let me get this straight.

"Nobody has more contempt for democrats" than Obama.

Also, Clinton is right that Obama is getting his support from Democratic activists.

Wow.  Democratic activists must be awfully stupid.


by TL on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:20:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (2.00 / 6)

I wish Moveon had a card I could down load.
Then I could say "I am a card carrying member"
"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:24:37 PM EST

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (2.00 / 1)

you could photo-shop one..  I doubt they would mind...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:33:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Won't matter really.... (2.00 / 1)

This won't hurt her but it is kind of demoralizing toward party activists.

Also, is Moveon.org really a caucus powerhouse?  I always assumed that was local people with no affiliation to a grassroots org beyond their respective candidates.


by Homebrewer on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:25:48 PM EST

Re: Won't matter really.... (2.00 / 2)

No, they aren't.  I think this is just scapegoating and whining and offering excuses for why you lost.  Basically a continuation of the whole "the press hates Hillary and loves Obama" stuff we've been hearing from Bill.


by Whash on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:29:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It will matter because Moveon will make it matter (2.00 / 6)

to its members. Remember, they can shoot off e-mails to 3 million devoted followers, who will all be insulted. They will take their insult and channel it into action. You can bet Obama will get a HUGE stream of donations from Moveon members. And foot soldiers in the PA contest.

There's nothing like a Democratic activist spit on.

This won't matter to the average voter. But the foot-soldier activists will say, "Fuck you."


by John Campanelli on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:31:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It will matter because Moveon will make it mat (2.00 / 4)

and who does the actual heavy-lifting grunt work in an election...?  Oh yeah, the party activists...

Bad move on her part...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:34:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not to mention, quite a few supers (2.00 / 2)

are probably MoveOn members.


Your old role is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a changing.
by Travis Stark on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:44:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Remember when Lieberman criticized Moveon (none / 0)

during his primary campaign. Look what happened to him.


by John Campanelli on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:17:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This one could hurt (2.00 / 6)

Does Hillary Clinton not want my vote either?

Seems as if Jane Hamsher over at firedoglake might be reaching her breaking point.

http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/18/hillar y-clinton-attacks-moveon/#more-21991


by bookish on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:26:25 PM EST

I am a member of MoveOn.org (1.50 / 2)

and their mailings go straight to my spam folder...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:26:45 PM EST

Re: I am a member of MoveOn.org (none / 0)

Well, at least you're a member...


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:38:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am a member of MoveOn.org (none / 0)

LOL

I would feel better if I knew what they stood for.  Taking out newspaper ads bashing Gen Petraeus does not do much for me.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:42:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They stand for progressive causes (none / 0)

Maybe that's why you don't get it.


by bookish on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:49:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I must not be a progressive then... (1.50 / 2)

because I dont feel the urge to bash the commander of US forces in Iraq.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:58:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You mean (2.00 / 1)

the sycophantic military commander who has been an enabler for a rogue president? The one who it constantly speaking out of both sides of his mouth?

I totally agree with them.


by bookish on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:27:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Troll rated for that ? (none / 0)

Wow, we must believe in free speech around here...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:53:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Troll rated for that ? (2.00 / 1)

Ya seriously.  There was absolutely nothing offensive about that.  The troll rating is for, well, trollish comments, not ones you disagree with.  


Vote Change in '08!
by iowa dem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:03:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Troll rated for that ? (2.00 / 1)

I guess beauty lies in the eye of the beerholder

So

Offense must lies in the eyes of the offendeer...

or something!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:09:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary stood up for MoveOn.org (1.50 / 2)

While Barack Obama sat in his office and refused to cast a vote in defense of free speech.  Hillary showed up, Barack did not.

And then MoveOn.org endorsed him?  Pathetic.  Hillary is/was justifiably angry.


I'm a Rick-o-phobe.
by psychodrew on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:52:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am a member of MoveOn.org (2.00 / 1)

Petraeus is a hack.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:31:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am a member of MoveOn.org (none / 0)

Petraeus isn't a hack, it's just that the war is unwinnable and peace is impossible for us to bring. He DID beat away the wolves at the door, it's just that the whole pack is circling the house. But he deserves credit for doing something to help at a time when things were looking bad. If we were in a just war that we had a shot at winning, we'd absolutely win with him in charge.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:50:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am a member of MoveOn.org (2.00 / 1)

He's dishonest about what's going on. He pushes the administration line not the truth.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:49:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Way to go (none / 0)

Why don't we go on from there...

lots of other heroes we can denigrate!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:16:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Way to go (2.00 / 1)

Your hero is a liar. His lies will get more people killed.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:52:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton is a hawk on foreign policy. (2.00 / 4)

Not even close to a progressive.  She has always been a hawk, and surrounds herself with "muscular" foreign policy types like Holbrooke and Albright.   Moveon has a different agenda, and rightly so.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:27:43 PM EST

Re: Clinton is a hawk on foreign policy. (none / 0)

You clearly aren't familiar with her voting record. She has one of the most progressive voting records in Congress. You are at odds with historical reality.

Anyway, take a look at her voting record, if you have the nerve.
http://www.progressivepunch.org/members. jsp?search=selectName&member=NYI& ;chamber=Senate&zip=&x=31&y= 11


by Little Otter on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:33:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton is a hawk on foreign policy. (2.00 / 4)

I think the commenter was limiting the view to Clinton's foreign policy votes... which are going to be skewed because of Iraq and Kyl-Lieberman...

But, her statements in the debate the other night, do lead me to believe she is playing dove-ly now, but is actually quite hawk-ish...  I had my suspicions before, but they grow a little every day.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:38:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't forget the Levin amendment. (2.00 / 1)

That's the one that really showed her stripes.


by bookish on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:30:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't forget the Levin amendment. (none / 0)

Kyl Lieberman was nothing except a hammer for Dems to use against each other, and then for Pubs to use against Dems - that's all it was.

We are not one step closer to war with Iran than we were before the vote. It's most effective use has been on the internets.

Before  you disagree with me, tell me what step Bush wouldn't have to take because of kyl Lieberman, if he wanted to go to war against them. What wouldn't he have to do?


by Little Otter on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:38:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't forget the Levin amendment. (2.00 / 1)

Why are you replying to me? I was talking about the stopgap Levin amendment that would have forced a second vote before we went into Iraq.


by bookish on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:41:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't forget the Levin amendment. (none / 0)

Feingold voted against Levin as well. Clinton, the day after the authorization, offered up an amendment that would have sunsetted the authorization and forced Bush to come back after a year. I notice that never gets bandied around.


by Little Otter on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:12:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't play that way (none / 0)

Well, instead of trying to change the subject, why not clarify what you think was the matter with the Levin amendment?


by bookish on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:28:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't play that way (none / 0)

I just know Feingold voted against it (and I don't think he was the only senator who opposed the authorization that also opposed Levin, but I haven't looked it up in ages) but I've never seen an explanation as to why. For that fact, I've never seen an explanation as to why people voted against Clinton's sunset amendment.

All of this is the problem with trying to turn the vote for authorization into a pro-war vote without any nuance. Obviously, it's not as simple as voting against the authorization and voila! no war.

Once Bush was determined to go to war and willing to go there the way he was, getting the US out of that trap became almost impossible. Our only hope was the inspectors certifying him disarmed before Bush had a chance to invade and it almost worked. Bush forced them to leave.


by Little Otter on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 02:07:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Fine, I'll indulge you (none / 0)

Feingold and Clinton both gave the specious argument that the Levin amendment would make the US "subordinate" to the UN. Utter horseshit that line was; I say it and so did their colleagues at the time.

Your suggesting that Clinton could do nothing so that she may as well have gone along with it gets to the heart of my problem with her. That's not leadership. That's cowtowing and following the pack in the most egregious way. "Well, there's nothing I can do, so I may as well make this as painless as possible," is not indication of leadership qualities.

The Levin amendment would've forced Bush to return to the congress for approval after the inspectors made their judgment on WMDs. Hillary caved to the GOP narrative. Simple: she did not lead, and helped to send Americans to their deaths.


by bookish on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 10:09:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fine, I'll indulge you (none / 0)

No one said anything about going along with the pack.

The fact of the matter is that the only hope for stopping the war was certifying Hussein as disarmed. Hans Blix wanted the authorization because it was the only way he could achieve unfettered inspections. Blix was right - it worked. As the vote on the authorization neared. Hussein threw all the doors open and Blix began an aggressive inspection process.

The Democrats shared power in the senate with the Republicans. The election was three weeks away and we knew we were losing the senate. Had the authorization not passed in October with it's UN mandates, it would have passed in january with no restrictions whatsoever.

Clinton's vote was legitimate and progressive. There was only one chance of stopping Bush and that was finishing the inspections. She voted for time. That Bush didn't abide by the standards of the authorization and forced the inspectors to leave isn't her fault. That's on Bush.


by Little Otter on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:11:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She is a dyed in the wool hawk (none / 0)

if you'll permit me to mix a metaphor.  She is now and always has been.  And I'm quite familiar with her voting record, thank you very much, one of the most anti-progressive of any democrat, aside from a few votes on women's issues.  I'll spare you the laundry list, you wouldn't pay any attention any more than you have already.

If you wish to ignore her record for reasons of your own, that is your perfect right, but don't try to sell me a bill of goods.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:51:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She is a dyed in the wool hawk (none / 0)

Clearly, you aren't familiar with her voting record and you're too afraid to find out what it actually is. She is a genuine, full throated progressive in every sense of the word - her platform is to the left of Obama's on virtually every issue. Her voting record is pretty much to the left of him as well.

If you don't Hillary's progressive then you sure as heck shouldn't be supporting Obama - because not by any objective standard is he more progressive than she is.


by Little Otter on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:34:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She is a dyed in the wool hawk (none / 0)

Did you not hear her in the debate the other night?  She promised that we'll be massively involved in any Middle-East conflict involving Israel.  Guess which candidate has gotten the most contributions from the military industrial complex?  Hillary.  She wants to create an "umbrella of deterrence that goes much further than Israel."  

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/ 24191522#24191522


by froggyman on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:46:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is a common fantasy (2.00 / 1)

among Hillary diehards, that she is a progressive.  
Today's attack on MoveOn is just the latest broadside against the left wing of the Democratic party.  You know, the base.
by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:17:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is a common fantasy (none / 0)

People who are well informed are very aware that she is progressive - that's an objective statement rooted in historical reality. It's a common fantasy among people who are afraid to even LOOK at her voting record that she isn't progressive. Ignorance is as ignorance does.


by Little Otter on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:09:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (2.00 / 4)

Ya linc...at my  North Denver caucus all we had was an overwhelming vote for Obama Delegates...
In 2004 we had 26 folks...this year we had over 400.
"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:28:56 PM EST

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (2.00 / 2)

Hey, where did you caucus?  I was at Skinner Elementary on 41st and Irving, in the Highlands.  Precinct 413.  My precinct went 80-20 Obama.  The only intimidation was the OVERWHELMING amount of Obama support.  Everyone was gracious and positive on both sides.


by nwgates on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:37:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (2.00 / 4)

Up here in Anchorage we had close to 4,000 show up at our Dem caucus. In prior years it was 100 at best.
And yes, it was intimidating to see all those smiling, enthusiastic progressives in their parkas and snow pants.
Let the children lose it Let the children use it Let all the children boogie
by toyomama on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic (none / 0)

Well...that's a big matzo ball.


by rfahey22 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:28:58 PM EST

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism (none / 0)

The media's response to this will say a lot about whether there is in fact a media bias in favor of Obama.  If there is, then she'll get nailed and we'll hear about her statements for the next few days.  If there isn't, this story will never see the light of day (which may suggest a Clinton bias).  It will be interesting to see how it plays out.  

My gut tells me that it will be too tempting for the media not to try to turn it into a story - especially since the circumstances (insulting statements made behind closed doors at a fundraiser) are so similiar to bittergate.  


by ruskin on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:29:53 PM EST

Karl Rove, Hannity, Oliely will all Ruuuun with it (none / 0)

You don't think they won't use this story to confirm their smears of MO? ABC will probably Run a 5 day mini series around this story!


by eddieb on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:31:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (1.00 / 1)

Is this the breaking news story Huffington post had blaring on its homepage lol.

Desperation.

She didn't even say anything remotely controversial.

I know Huffington Post is trying its best to make up for the uproar it caused over Obama's comment but this doesn't even measure up.

More like a joke to me.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:30:04 PM EST

the definition of denial (2.00 / 5)

"She didn't even say anything remotely controversial."

hahhahahahhahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahah ahhahaha!!

she said that DEMOCRATIC ACTIVISTS were the PROBLEM.

no, that's not at all controversial, to Republicans, who agree 100%. but this is OUR BASE she is slandering. if you think the Democratic BASE is the problem, you are a Republican.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:35:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the definition of denial (2.00 / 1)

Actually I am glad she doesn't agree with moveon.org , frankly thats why I am having issues with Obama.

I am not interested in moveon.org


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:40:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the definition of denial (2.00 / 5)

I think a more honest phrasing would be you're not interested in Obama and that's why you're having issues with MoveOn.  But no matter how you may feel about Obama or the Petreaus ad, MoveOn has done remarkable work in grassroots organizing and was a tremendous force during the 2006 elections.  To bash MoveOn is exactly the type of splitting the Party that people are worried about.


by Piuma on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:48:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

An outfit that was formed to get people (2.00 / 3)

to "Move On" from obsessing about Clinton's impeachment.  We're really through the looking glass now.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:53:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An outfit that was formed to get people (none / 0)

Here is Hillary Clinton with nothing but praise for the group:

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/


by mady on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:03:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the definition of denial (none / 0)

I think a more honest phrasing would be you're not interested in Obama and that's why you're having issues with MoveOn.  

- The fact that you think that doesn't make it so .

I am a conservative democrat and some folks I know refer to moveon.org as commies ( albeit in a friendly manner ).

Any politician that is being pushed by moveon is one that would be less appealing to me.

It is not very polite to question the honesty of others , especially if you have no idea who they are or where they are coming from .


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:02:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the definition of denial (2.00 / 2)

I just posted above the video of Hillary Clinton praising Move On pretty effusively.


by mady on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:04:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the definition of denial (2.00 / 3)

My apologies then.  I don't recall you expressing an opinion on MoveOn but your opinion of Obama certainly predates their endorsement of him.  Now of course Bill was the very first politician "pushed" by MoveOn but I guess that doesn't matter as much as the opinion of your friends who are still locked in the thinking of the Cold War.


by Piuma on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:10:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

she dissed WAY more than moveon (2.00 / 8)

she dissed the base of our party, DEMOCRATIC ACTIVISTS.

i'm no moveon fan, either. they were formed to take up for Bill Clinton's sleazy antics in the oval office. i still don't know why we didn't just let Gore take over.

and the General Betray Us ad was stupid and counterproductive.

but again, she's dissing ALL Democratic activists in this clip.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:49:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, brother another whiner... (2.00 / 5)

She is whining and frankly jealous because moveon.org has provided boots on the ground and money.  Money that she desperately needs and don't have.

Sure, she will win PA, but we all know this is over.  The Supers are going Obama's way and many want this over by June.  We can not afford this to keep going, especially since she in not paying her campaign bills.

HRCs major mistake was underestimating Obama, relying too much on conventional media and not organizing her ground game.  She has no one to come to in the blogosphere, they are behind Obama.  She never understood the netroots, blogsphere and how stories are pushed.  She turned her nose up on us.  She thought big donors were everything, when the small ones sustained Obama and pushed him forward.  And she did not believe we would show up to help him win this, and we have in the millions.  That is what a book need to be written about HRCs horrible campaign front, how she did not understand 21st century technology and how it took her down.

Yes, keep denouncing the Democratic Activists, we are the ones who DO show up and DO hit the donate button, hell she just may not have a seat after 2012.


by tracey webb on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:57:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, brother another whiner... (none / 0)

It would be a shame to lose one of the most reliably progressive and effective senators we have because Obama supporters feel the need to punish someone for daring to run against the precious.

Your post is the kind of nasty rhetoric that will make it very hard for Obama to turn out Clinton supporters should he be the nominee. We're in blue states. We like Clinton. We always vote and we always vote Democratic. And Obama and his supporters have insulted us and our candidate over and over and over again. Remember, obama mostly wins red states that he won't take in the general. How do you expect to win blue states when you're insulting the activist base in those states?

Has he called Clinton and apologized for Rhodes going postal on his behalf? No? Well, that's a whole 'nother slice of women who won't show up to vote for Obama because he hasn't earned our vote. Unlike Elise, I won't vote for McCain, but I won't vote for Obama either. You might want to think about that before you go off gloating like you are here.

And you know what, obama can still lose.


by Little Otter on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:44:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, brother another whiner... (2.00 / 1)

Threatening people with your vote again......geesh.....


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:47:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, brother another whiner... (none / 0)

daring to run against the precious???  You're a funny little otter.


by interestedbystander on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 03:23:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, brother another whiner... (none / 0)

Little Otter, you are joking right?

Obama has to apologize to Hillary because a third party at an event not for Obama said something ugly about her? Did Hillary apologize to Obama for Geraldine Ferraro & Bob Johnson. For her husband's lies?  No. And she didn't need to.

As for her being a reliably progressive senator. I live in upstate New York and I can absolutely promise you there will be a line of progressives a mile long who would do that job more effectively than she has done.  


by swarty on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 10:29:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, brother another whiner... (none / 0)

Well, I'm a woman and most of the women I know are Obama supporters. So, I think there are enough of us women out there who feel that its foolish to vote for someone just because we all get a cycle every month.


"Beauty, more than bitterness, makes the heart break." Sara Teasdale
by april34fff on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:07:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the definition of denial (none / 0)

SEEMS THAT ALOT OF HRC SUPPS. HAVE GRIPES ABOUT PROGRESSIVE BLOGS, I.E., DKOS, HUFFPO, MOVEON...so what is an acceptable site for you guys? redstate perhaps? good grief.


"Beauty, more than bitterness, makes the heart break." Sara Teasdale
by april34fff on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 11:51:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the definition of denial (none / 0)

You know, I agree with what you said, but you certainly found an offensive way to say it.


by Trickster on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:49:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

MoveOn.org is NOT the base. (none / 0)

It's part of the base.

I don't see how this hurts her.  I'm sure that what few supporters she has in MoveOn.org were just as upset when MoveOn.org endorsed the candidate who sat in his office and refused to stand up for free speech while she was willing to cast a potentially controversial vote.


I'm a Rick-o-phobe.
by psychodrew on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:59:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The few supporters you refer to... (2.00 / 3)

MoveOn has roughly 3.2 million members. Clinton won 30% of the MoveOn presidential primary vote. That works out to 1 million Clinton supporters in the org. That's an awfully big "few."


by bookish on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:39:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the definition of denial (none / 0)

Uh, no, they are not the Democratic base, they are, at best a boutique voting block more vocal than their actual voting power. Blue collar workers, now that is the Democratic base.


by superetendar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:32:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Blue-collar whites are NOT the base (none / 0)

Blue collar workers? If you're talking about white blue-collar workers then you are most definitely NOT talking about the base of the Democratic Party. John Kerry lost blue-collar whites to Bush by 23 points. I believe Bill Clinton lost this demographic both times.  

Unionized blue-collar whites are an important part of the Democratic base. But sadly there are fewer union members now than before.

The base of the Democratic party is:

Educated white liberals living on the coasts and in and around large cities

African Americans

Unions

Non-Cuban and non-Evangelical Latinos

That's it. Every other group is a potential swing constituency.  There are smaller core base constituencies - Jews, yellow dogs in the South, government workers, etc. But the biggest part of the base is "knowledge voters" in the new economy, African Americans and union voters.


by elrod on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:24:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blue-collar whites are NOT the base (none / 0)

And women?


by Tantris on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 11:19:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blue-collar whites are NOT the base (none / 0)

if women were a core constituency we would never lose consider they are 52% of the population.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:44:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Remember what happened to McCain in 2000 (2.00 / 7)

when he called evangelical leaders divisive? His support dried up in the primaries. When you are competing in a primary process when the electorate is far more liberal and activist than in the general election, you need these people.

To the average voter,this means nothing.To those who have devoted themselves to the Democratic cause, she just said, "Fuck you."

Expect activists to respond back in kind.


by John Campanelli on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:44:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Intimidation is the problem (2.00 / 1)

There are a lot of us in the Clinton camp that are furious about the intimidation - the booing, the harassing, the stealing of sign in papers at caucuses. All of that stuff. If someone called Michelle a fucking whore in an event organized by Clinton supporters for Clinton supporters on behalf of a radio station that hand endorsed Clinton and organized on a board owned and operated by the Clinton campaign, I'd expect Clinton to be on the phone within minutes apologizing. Not a word out of Obama. Not even a caution that Rhodes rhetoric went to far. Nothing. It's the contempt emanating from that campaign for a candidate who has much longer progressive resume than Obama does that is infuriating everyone.

And we are angry. That's why twice as many Clinton supporters are telling pollsters they won't vote for Obama as vice versa. You'd think that would be cause to rethink the hostility but no....


by Little Otter on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:30:05 PM EST

running as ReThug in Dem primary is the problem (1.00 / 4)

"And we are angry. That's why twice as many Clinton supporters are telling pollsters they won't vote for Obama as vice versa."

you say angry, loyal Democrats call it "NUTS." some Clinton supporters, and Clinton herself, have totally lost their minds, and are rushing to join the other side. for many, including Clinton, it's a short walk.  


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:39:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I trust Clinton (2.00 / 3)

when she says that she'll work - coast-to-coast - to get the nominee elected. I'd find it amazing if her supporters suddenly decided to stop listening to her when the nominee is chosen.

If her supporters choose not to follow her lead on that, I think it says far more about them than it does about her.


by bookish on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:59:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Jesus christ, give it a rest. (2.00 / 1)

She has promised to campaign coast to coast to make sure we elect a Democrat in November -- she won't go back on her word, even if Obama's the nominee. She's a Democrat, whether you like it or not, who is actually more progressive in some respects (especially healthcare) than Obama. Chill the hell out.


by sricki on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:34:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Intimidation is the problem (none / 0)

how does "Clinton blames activists" equate into "hey rethink your hostility or we'll show you..."...?

And seriously, the hostility is amped up on both freakin' sides... There are no angels in this.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:41:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Intimidation is the problem (2.00 / 2)

Last I checked, Randi Rhodes doesn't work for Obama.

Should Obama apologize for your neighbor playing loud music too?

While he's at it...perhaps he should apologize for Simon Cowell's behavior on American Idol?

What else...

How about - Obama apologizes for every offensive comment said by anyone...ever.

This is idiotic.


by Elise on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:02:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Intimidation is the problem (none / 0)

"That's why twice as many Clinton supporters are telling pollsters they won't vote for Obama as vice versa. You'd think that would be cause to rethink the hostility but no...."

No.  It causes me to rethink the self-identification of those Clinton supporters as "Democrats."  Any Clinton supporter who would enable McBush if Obama is our nominee obviously supports Hillary Clinton for reasons other than the policies she espouses.

Obama supporters don't need to "rethink the hostility."  Clinton supporters considering voting for or supporting McSame (tacitly or overtly) are the ones who need to rethink what it means to be a Democrat or a progressive.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:38:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Intimidation is the problem (none / 0)

Oh, and also, please link me to the prominent position Randi Rhodes holds in the Obama campaign.  Come to think of it, please link me to anything at all that suggests that she represents Obama, his campaign, or his supporters in any way.

You should email Obama demanding he apologize for Clinton's MoveOn statements, because clearly you hold him responsible for anything offensive said by anyone, anywhere.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:41:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Intimidation is the problem (none / 0)

Did you complain to the proper authorities and document the alleged intimidation?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:10:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Intimidation is the problem (none / 0)

I did! I worked the caucuses in Houston for Hillary - it was a farce! Obama's supporters showed up in great majority without any identification or proof of voting in the primary or caucuses - they shouted everyone down even accusing Hillary's supporters of not supporting Obama because we didn't want to elect a black president! They intimidated the elderly - I personaly accompanied a group of elderly women out to their cars who left because they were scared that they were going to be pushed to the ground and break some bones! There was nothing democratic about the caucuses in Houston - we were told to let everybody in without questions for fear of a riot! I reported it to the Clinton campaign...


by suzieg on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:19:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Intimidation is the problem (none / 0)

So was there court action or police?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:07:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Intimidation is the problem (none / 0)

I should point out that HRC made her comments before Texas so she couldn't have been referring to that.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:10:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Intimidation is the problem (none / 0)

What caucus was she talking about?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:21:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (2.00 / 2)

Yikes.  I wonder who has been sitting on this story for over two months?  Why am I not surprised?  I guess the DLC/Dean antipathy runs deep in Hillary's political world-view.  Bad news for activist Democrats and the netroots?  Or Hillary?


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:31:38 PM EST

The same people who sat on the Bitter story! (none / 0)


by eddieb on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:38:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The same people who sat on the Bitter story! (none / 0)

That seems a glib comment.  The 'bitter' story took five days to hit the media and came direct from a Huffington Post blogger.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:56:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Does bashing Netroots = (2.00 / 4)

Crashing the Gates?  MyDD can be confusing...


by The Animal on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:32:06 PM EST

Attack the left, sure (2.00 / 1)

...but attacking Move On is just wrong.  This is a group founded to defend Bill Clinton.  Spreading the same kind of lies about her defenders that they worked to stop in the 90s is just horrid.


But in the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope.
by thezzyzx on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:32:12 PM EST

Re: Attack the left, sure (2.00 / 1)

YOU ARE KIDDING, right?  you know the atacks MoveOn has been making towards Hillary?  And you consider this an alley?  File that under Randi Rhodes support.


by LindaSFNM on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:34:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (none / 0)

If you have problems with the caucus intimidation or something like that fine.  But these were the people who defended the Clintons in the 90s.  The people who said that Whitewater was dumb, that the impeachment was a waste of time, that we had to push back against the right wing's lies about Bill Clinton.   To then turn around and spread a lie about them?   Well loyalty goes both ways.


But in the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope.
by thezzyzx on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:41:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (none / 0)

What part of "the group was FOUNDED to defend Bill Clinton" blew right by you there?  


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:42:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (2.00 / 1)

Clinton stood by MoveOn in Congress when the resolution to condemn them for their Petraeus ad was being voted on - she stood and opposed it. Obama, even though he was in the Senate that day and had voted minutes (literally) before, blew them off. Once again, he couldn't be bothered to take an actual stand on principal.


by Little Otter on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:51:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (none / 0)

and then she came out and condemned the group later.

Russ Feingold was the only Dem that got that turkey right.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:54:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (none / 0)

She took a stand which could be used against her in a campaign - Obama didn't. it's that simple. Saying that you don't approve of the ad is a helluva different than allowing an organization to be condemned by Congress for exercising their right to free speech.

Now, what was Obama's excuse? he was too damn cowardly to even vote on it. Are you proud of him for that? Does that pass for clever in your community?


by Little Otter on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:16:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (none / 0)

Or, she took a stand that would help her in the primaries and let her true feelings be known in private.  I'm not saying that that's the case, but your evidence doesn't go as far as you think it does.


by rfahey22 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:21:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (none / 0)

Well, that and she (and Obama) both voted for Boxer's amendment which said essentially the same thing as Ayers' but left out the name Moveon.org.

That was a stinker all the way around.  My point is that you cannot hold her up as a paragon of virtue on it.  That position is Russ Feingold's and his alone.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:23:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (none / 0)

Indeed.  I would go so far as to say that MoveOn's instincts in that media campaign were atrocious.  However, it was not "against" the war in Afghanistan.  Once again Clinton starts playing loose with the facts when the reality was more than sufficient.


by rfahey22 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:27:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (none / 0)

I agree... I saw that campaign and groaned...  

But to use Rove's actual attack was a wee bit silly on her part.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:45:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (none / 0)

Yeah, and then they went and ENDORSED him.  Your point is what now?


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:16:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (none / 0)

Well they endorsed him because we voted on it.  As in the moveon membership.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:48:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not kidding (none / 0)


MoveOn is a non-profit public policy advocacy group that has raised millions of dollars for Democratic Party candidates in the United States. It was formed in response to the impeachment of President Clinton and has been cited in some accounts as a factor which helped propel the Democratic Party to power in the 2006 election.

Wikipedia



by Shaun Appleby on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:53:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not kidding (1.00 / 1)

Do you really believe that MoveOn had any significant role in the 2006 elections ?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:03:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not kidding (2.00 / 2)


WASHINGTON --  Here's a pop quiz on money in politics: Who gives more money to federal candidates, the National Rifle Association or MoveOn.org?

Answer: MoveOn.

And it isn't even close.

In the last two election cycles, MoveOn.org Political Action Committee spent more than $58 million in pro-Democrat political advocacy, according to Federal Election Commission records.

In just the 2006 election cycle, MoveOn.org spent $27 million in advocacy to elect a Democratic majority in Congress and used its formidable fund-raising clout to propel numerous Democratic challengers to House and Senate victories. By comparison, the NRA PAC donated $11 million in 2006.

"They give away and raise about three times as much as the National Rifle Association," said Massie Ritsch, communications director for the Center for Responsive Politics. "A tremendous amount of money, especially when you consider how quickly they came on the scene."

Major Garrett - MoveOn Gravy Train Makes and Breaks Political Fortunes Fox News 18 Sep 07

Yup.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:15:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not kidding (none / 0)

Okay then

What was the difference between 2006 and 2004, and 2002.  As I recall, MoveOn spent a ton of money in 2004 as well (as did a whole lot of other groups).

So, let me ask again.

Do you really think MoveOn made that much of a difference in 2006 ?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:52:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not kidding (2.00 / 2)


The 2006 election cycle thrust MoveOn into the ranks of potent pro-Democrat organizations. Never before had the group's ability to identify candidates and collect small donations on their behalf yield bigger results.

"MoveOn has grown into one of the biggest political action committees in the country," Ritsch said. "MoveOn collects money and says to its members 'We're going to pass that money along.' They're a conduit. They are aggregating and assembling all the money and pooling their resources so it adds up to big influence."

MoveOn backs candidates and asks members to send contributions on their behalf. They pass the donations on directly and handle all the paperwork.

"They're speaking for the grassroots," Ritsch said. "This is a form of bundling."

Major Garrett - MoveOn Gravy Train Makes and Breaks Political Fortunes Fox News 18 Sep 07

As I said, yes.  Definitely.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:16:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not kidding (2.00 / 1)

Speaking as someone who spent 4 months leading up to the election as a MoveOn Organizer; yes, yes I do.


by Capt America on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:25:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not kidding (none / 0)

Okay, maybe you can answer my question above..


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:59:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not kidding (none / 0)

As to the difference between 2004 and 2006?

We figured out how grassroots activism worked.  It took an election cycle to break ourselves of the top-down nonsense that still plagues certain sub-sections of the party and move on to bottom up organizing models.

My job, as an Organizer, was to make sure everyone was coordinating and working as a unit.  I didn't issue edicts, I wasn't controlling it all, I was simply an enabler.  Volunteers did 99% of the actual work and decision making (well, I didn't exactly slack off, but I didn't do more grunt work than they did) and I gave them advice and nudged them in the directions they needed to go on occasion.

Basically, it was more guiding hand and less mailed fist.  People on the ground making decisions rather than at some command center several states away.


by Capt America on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:08:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How much role do you think that had (none / 0)

when compared to the general state of affairs...

i.e.,

people were pissed off at the President, wanted to bring the troops home, did not want to privatize Social Security etc. etc.

and the luck of the draw

i.e.,

republicanism had become synomymous with corruption after a series of scandals


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:13:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How much role do you think that had (none / 0)

I think we had a very solid impact on the elections overall.  We had better luck in some places than others, but we generally brought a level of organization that simply didn't exist to local Dems before we got there and spearheaded a lot of important GOTV work.

The issues certainly played a part, but they wouldn't have had the power they did without people like us turning out voters.


by Capt America on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:38:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (2.00 / 1)

Clinton, unlike Obama, voted against the resolution in the Senate to condemn MoveOn for their Petraeus ad in the NY Times. Obama had voted a few minutes earlier on another resolution, but skipped voting the second time. He was there. He was just being cowardly.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/200 7/09/clinton-dodd-vo.html


by Little Otter on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:43:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (2.00 / 1)

No. He wasn't being cowardly. His statement on the issue said that he refused to vote because he wasn't going to vote on things we shouldn't even be discussing in the Senate. He wanted to focus on Iraq.


by Elise on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:08:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, Obama lied about that. He didn't mind taking a stand on a resolution just a few minutes before which sought to condemn and link the attacks on John Kerry (which was libelous in nature) with MoveOn's Petraeus ad.

But then we have long since learned not to expect eitheer thoughtful, adult or principled behavior out of the junior senator from Illinois.


by Little Otter on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:19:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (none / 0)

You wouldn't know adult or principled behavior if it smacked you in the face...and frankly, I hope at some point it does.

So, you'll be voting for McCain then? Cheering for 100 years of war? Cheering for a conservative Supreme Court?


by Elise on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:23:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (1.50 / 2)

Elise - so you're here to push McCain, eh? interesting. I'm not surprised to see lots of Obama supporters leaning towards McCain if Clinton's the nominee. Similar level of fancy involved in supporting both of em.

Anyway, i wouldn't come near McCain with a ten foot pole but this is the United States, Elise, and if you want to vote for McCain that's your right. My son's a Marine and that hundred year war thing just doesn't work out for me.

I'll sit the race out if Obama's the nominee but if you want to vote FOR McCain, you certainly have the right to do it. If you're in favor of the hundred year war thing though, you should maybe join the military. I don't think Obama will even attempt to get us out of Iraq so I guess that's the link the two have for you. Good to see an Obama supporter almost willing to admit that obama isn't capable of getting us out of Iraq.


by Little Otter on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:30:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (2.00 / 1)

Otter, now you are just making stuff up...

I have not seen a single Obama supporter in quite awhile say they are going to vote for McCain... Today alone, I ave run into 3 Clinton supporters who will... or say they will.

Elsie is not voting for McCain and you would know that if you had read her post... but she read yours and given your very clear level of distaste for Obama, she made the assumption that you would be voting for McCain.

And I would venture, after Clinton's comments regarding he "umbrella" in the Middle East, that Obama now has a better shot at getting us out of Iraq.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:35:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (none / 0)

Elise is talking about supporting McCain - something I find offensive. If that's okay with you - well, there ya' go. Peas in a pod, I guess.

Obama won't get us out of anywhere - he's not smart enough and he's disciplined enough.


by Little Otter on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 02:02:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You are apparently illiterate. (none / 0)

You should work on that.


by Elise on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:44:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (2.00 / 1)

Sorry, but as I said up thread Clinton's stand on this "issue" was barely better... She voted for the Boxer amendment which was the same thing but left out Moveon's name and voted against the Ayer's (sorry, my bad, it was Cornyn) amendment.  Clinton later denounced Moveon on Meet the Press.

The only one tht took the right stance all the way through was Russ Feingold.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:29:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (2.00 / 1)

You know, she was the one who publicly defended them during the Petraeus flap, while Obama remained silent.  Not only did that not win her their endorsement, not only did it not win her their neutrality, but it didn't even blunt their edge.  They've really been part of the cascade of character attacks.

I'm not defending what she said.  She shouldn't have said it.  But it's certainly something I would be happy to say.  Screw them, yea unto the third generation.


by Trickster on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:52:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (2.00 / 1)

Screw 'em?  A chillingly familiar sentiment toward Democrats from Hillary and her supporters.  First Southern working-class whites and now activists.  This your notion of a 'big tent?'  Sounds more like 'my way or the highway.'


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:00:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (none / 0)

You're chilled because of something I said?  I'm flattered, but really, put on a jacket.

By the way, I'm not at the moment recollecting ever having said anything like that about Southern working-class whites--like my father, for example.  So I'm not sure what you're on about, with this "first X, now Y" construction.


by Trickster on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (none / 0)

I clearly said 'Hillary and her supporters' thereby embracing your comment and your candidate's similar sentiment in a single syntactic narrative towards those who oppose or fail to support her.  And the 'chill' I referred to is the cold policy of exclusion which comes so easily to the self-described 'Democrats' who number themselves only among those bound by loyalty to the DLC brand of political philosophy, which is neither 'progressive' nor 'activist' and is wedded to the existing institutions of power and disdains sharing it's benefits with the party, or electorate, at large.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:27:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (none / 0)

Screw them, yea unto the third generation.

Don't agree with you, but that cracked me up


You haven't seen impatient until you've seen a monkey waiting for a donut.
by bjones on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:12:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Attack the left, sure (none / 0)

and then she publicly denounced them on Meet the Press.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:31:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Increased (d) Activists for Her Struggles (1.00 / 0)

Uh yes, as if we couldn't tell which candidate you were pushing with this distorted account of what Hillary said and drudging up old news.  Sounds a bit desperate to me.

You know Hillary has been a strong advocate for ACTIVISM among the grassroots and citeznry.  She was talking about know activist groups that do this more like a business that decided to get involved in the primary and actually work against her.

Can we have some honesty please?  Or is this becoming a rare commodity in the blogoshere anymore?

And funny how Hillary was the one who voted against condemning MoveOn for their freedom of speech, but the candidate they decided to sell out for couldn't even find the time to vote on their behalf?  Doesn't that make you wonder how he would have voted?  

Another excellent display of lack of integrity for supposed democratic strongholds.


by LindaSFNM on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:33:18 PM EST

Re: Increased (d) Activists for Her Struggles (2.00 / 6)

So supporting them in public but dissing them in private shows more integrity?  Did I get that right?

Honesty's been out of the building all day, but I'm pretty sure you've been an active participant in the "fingergate" festivities.


by rfahey22 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:38:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Increased (d) Activists for Her Struggles (2.00 / 1)

How does her voice on tape saying what she said mean the diarist is lying?

Your plea for honesty should rightly fall on deaf ears.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:44:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Um, it's a *tape* (none / 0)

Unless you think that's a Hillary impersonator, this is entirely her own doing.

Are you really surprised, by the way?  MoveOn is supporting Obama.  To the Clintons, that means they have to be destroyed.  Simple as that.  And if the best way to do it is to paint them as dirty f*ing hippies, well, that's just the way politics is.

Heck.  The campaign is just doing us activists a favor.  If she didn't do it, surely the Republicans would.  This is just toughening us up.


by TL on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:18:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (none / 0)

Move On Stinks. They should never, ever have taken sides in this thing.

"so-called intimidators." I take it your weren't a female Hillary supporter walking into one of those events, therefore it didn't happen. My God, Singer, you are too much.

Yesterday you remind us that Hillary should not be "beyond reproach." lol, when it is Obama who is beyond reproach to the fan boiz. Today, this crap.


by cc on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:33:21 PM EST

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (2.00 / 2)

From memory Move On asked it's membership if they should endorse and if so for whom.  The membership decided to endorse Obama.  That's how participatory democracy works.  I doubt the unions used the same methodology.  If you are criticising Move On you are criticising their membership.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:03:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

MoveOn took sides (2.00 / 1)

on the support of its members. That's called democracy. Sorry you think that "stinks."

In a vote of the group's members, Mr. Obama outpaced Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton 70 percent to 30 percent. The political action committee of MoveOn.org has 3.2 million members across the country, including 1.7 million members who live in the 22 states with Democratic primaries or caucuses on Tuesday.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/ 02/01/moveon-endorses-obama/


by bookish on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:07:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (none / 0)

I remember when the Obama camp complained of shennigans at the Nevada caucus they were laughed at as whiners... but equally unsubstantiated accusations from the Clinton camp are automatically true....why?


by labor nrrd on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:52:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Move On's MEMBERS voted to support OB (none / 0)

This is called Democracy in action! Don't tell me how to Vote! I'll bet you would have sung a different tune if we voted to support Hillary. In fact I'd like to hear you deny it.


by eddieb on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:37:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I generally disagree with her, but i have the (none / 0)

feeling this is going to be a blog/internet story and not a 'controversy' We will see though...

She is right that caucuses are dominated by party activists and exclude many, but I don't understand exactly where and how she doesnt agree with them?


DEMOCRATIC 08!
by rigsoHC on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:36:18 PM EST

I didn't think "bitter" would make it (2.00 / 1)

out of the blogs- don't underestimate the rabid tabloidism of our sorry excuse for a media.


by nwgates on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:41:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

at the same time, they endorsed her (none / 0)

opponent so...


DEMOCRATIC 08!
by rigsoHC on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:42:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I generally disagree with her, but i have the (none / 0)

" but I don't understand exactly where and how she doesnt agree with them? "

- because she is not on the same side of the ideological spectrum.

Any group that can run an ad Gen. Betray us is really out there


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:42:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I generally disagree with her, but i have the (none / 0)

It's the intimidation she's objecting to - not the swelling number of activists. It's hard to deal with bullies without resorting to bullying yourself - but of course, that's not healthy for anyone.

She has to just tough it out which she is. Hopefully, she'll win and things will be fine.


by Little Otter on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:45:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I generally disagree with her, but i have the (2.00 / 4)

My precinct caucus in TX was 99+ percent people who had never been to a caucus before. Finally we got a candidate who bothered to let the "little people" know we have caucuses in Texas.


by myddfree on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:54:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

sadly, it fits her to a T. she is attacking (2.00 / 1)

the very people who previously supported and defended her. and it brings her attack on the Democratic Party even further out of the closet. I am sorry, Jerome, but your argument about this the other day was just so wrong. look, this is who she is. she does this to all of her constituencies. she only cares about her and Bill and no one else. this is what we saw with Bill in the 90's, and we still defended him and her. they think that we will still stand by them, no matter what because we have nowhere else to go. but guess what: we do have somewhere else to go: Obama.


by DrPolitics on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:41:40 PM EST

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (2.00 / 1)

Jonathan, can you focus please?  Obama was just caught on video doing a gesture straight from hip-hop music, and the MyDD diarists are a little too busy hyperventilating over how much it shows Obama hates white people/women/America to pay attention to nonsense like this.

"Shame on you, Jonathan Singer"


UNITY!
by The Great Gatsby on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:41:42 PM EST

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (2.00 / 1)

Not hip hop music!! Noooooo!!!


by Elise on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:09:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ZOMG!!! teh Blahx!1!1!!!! (none / 0)

What is up with that comment?   Are you saying rap = black = bad?     I do think mydd deserves better than you.


by drowsy on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:28:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ZOMG, I am teh sux? (none / 0)

Wow, I may have forgotten my sarcasmeter at home.  Apologies to you.


by drowsy on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:31:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

bonehead (2.00 / 3)

maybe the boneheadedest moment in a hall of fame bonehead campaign.

she HATES the progressive wing of the party. and the feeling is mutual.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:42:56 PM EST

Re: bonehead (none / 0)

And yet she has a more progressive platform than Obama and a voting record that is at least as progressive. Why would she hate the people whose policies she's helped develop and is working to enact?


by Little Otter on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:47:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: bonehead (2.00 / 2)

She is only more progressive on health care.  His education proposals (all the way down to public school funding changes), foreign policy proposals, his economic/trade policy proposals are all more progressive than hers.  She has been a great Senator and she has gotten things done, but she is not as liberal as  he is in her policy proposals (except Health care, which is not the #1 priority for most of us Obama supporters, I believe).


by ProgressiveDL on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:48:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Where was the fundraiser? (2.00 / 1)

Not SF, by any chance?


by Fairy Tale on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:44:49 PM EST

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (2.00 / 1)

The Hillary Clinton campaign has always been about one thing: Hillary Clinton.  Many of us realised that fact long ago.


by 08AMA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:45:34 PM EST

Re: Clinton Blames Increased (2.00 / 1)

Move on should not have taken sides. If they support dems, they support dems. Not one dem in particular. And after Clinton stood up for them in the Senate when we know who did not, their endorsement was really sleazy. I have ended my support. Many Hillary supporters have. I also think she has a valid point about the caucuses.


by linfar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:47:45 PM EST

Re: Clinton Blames Increased (2.00 / 2)

MoveOn members voted on who to support, and they overwhelmingly chose Obama. The members agreed prior to voting that they would support the candidate the membership chose.


by myddfree on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:59:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased (none / 0)

Agreed... and Clinton denounced them on Meet the Press.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:39:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MoveON (none / 0)

and I cancelled my account and my support there immediately after --
I supported MoveOn as a progressive alternative to the politics of the Far Right and their domination of our government over the past eight years.
Personally since MoveOn's efforts have not yet resulted in any substantive POLICY change (all of their national democratic candidates have lost) - I would say that the jury is still out on their effectiveness.
What they have proved is that they can make a bunch of computer junkies feel good.
by pan230oh on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:19:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased (none / 0)

The Clintons need to get a grip. This sense of entitlement they feel.

Everybody OWES them something. Everyone's a traitor. No Hill and Bill. Unlike you two...people do have principles.


"Beauty, more than bitterness, makes the heart break." Sara Teasdale
by april34fff on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:56:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She's talking about single issue groups. (none / 0)

Caucuses are not very democratic. Very few people actually participate. Single-issue groups can have an inordinate influence in caucuses.

I think Obama might be the new leader of the very small-tent Democrats. I'm not sure if Obama won't turn out to be another Jimmy Carter. He had proved one thing to me: he is no uniter. That is for sure.

The man has a tin ear when it comes to the general election. He wants to raise taxes on everyone making $200,000. Many people in California and New York don't think that is an outrageous amount of money. That's why he is doing very poor there versus McCain. Those two states should be slam dunks.

Obama will either be Michael Dukakis and lose or Jimmy Carter, and win and fail miserably. I like and respect Carter but he had a tin ear and I'm afraid Obama has too. He is not well positioned for the general election.

Have Democrats already forgotten what it takes to win and govern effectively? It would appear so.


by mmorang on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:48:37 PM EST

Re: She's talking about single issue groups. (none / 0)

Actually, he wants to raise (social security payroll) takes on everybody making more than $97,500 -- and not only from them, but also from their employers.  This would be absolutely devastating to the University of California, and would very much likely make it raise its tuition even further and thus make it less affordable to students from low and middle-income families.

And it also would make it almost impossible to simultaneously raise income taxes to help pay for universal health insurance, since it's just politically tenable to keep going back to the same groups and raising taxes from them.  (But, I guess it doesn't make any difference, since he's against universal health care anyway.)


by markjay on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:22:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's talking about single issue groups. (none / 0)

The University of California has about $73 billion in endowments, so I think they can afford whatever incremental raise in payroll taxes makes it through Congress.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:42:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's talking about single issue groups. (none / 0)

Sort of.  That $73 billion is for all the UC campuses and also includes retirement money.  In terms of purely endowment money, they have $8.1 billion as of 2005.  

http://www.ucop.edu/treasurer/foundation /foundation.pdf

That's obviously a lot of money, but it's for 10 UC campuses.  For comparison, Harvard has almost $40 for ONE campus.


by ProgressiveDL on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:55:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's talking about single issue groups. (none / 0)

Every University has a smaller endowment than Harvard, so perhaps thats not the best comparison. That said, I don't know what the mean/median endowment is, though.


John McCain wants to make abortion illegal
by Lost Thought on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:37:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's talking about single issue groups. (none / 0)

Good point.  The problem is how do you compare a huge university to a small liberal arts school?  How do you compare Harvard to a state school?  How many colleges do you include?  Here is a list of 741 schools in order of endowment.  It is, unfortunately, a few years old.  This is 2004 numbers.

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/research /FY04NESInstitutionsbyTotalAssetsforPres s.pdf


by ProgressiveDL on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:42:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's talking about single issue groups. (none / 0)

Assuming 5% interest per year on that endowment, that's about $400 million per year -- in other words, about 2% of UC's annual $18.1 billion annual operating budget.  UC is not richly endowed, which is why it has had to resort to student fee increases in response to government cutbacks in recent years -- and would have to do so even more if forced to pay new payroll taxes.


by markjay on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:53:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Caucuses (none / 0)

Caucuses are not very democratic. Very few people actually participate.

You know, I tried to argue this point with a bunch of Obama guys (me the lone Hillary supporter vs all guys) on debate night - that caucuses were undemocratic and that it wasn't easy for everyone to stand up and say their preference, they should have the privacy of the voting booth.  They all shouted me down and wouldn't hear what I was saying.  They just couldn't believe that the caucuses were somehow unfair to working class people or biased in favor of, frankly, people who are more aggressive.  [In retrospect I should've been like YOU'RE DOING IT RIGHT NOW..]  They also mocked Hillary quite a bit calling her a liar constantly, like the whole thing was a big joke.  I was pretty dismayed at the childishness of it.  Some of these folks are career liberal activists, older than me..


by daria g on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:15:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's talking about single issue groups. (none / 0)

You need to take a look at this YouTube with a good graphic about income distribution.  Btw according to Wikipedia the median household income is under $60,000.


by texasobserver on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:24:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (none / 0)


"Mom, baseball, apple pie, and a unified Democratic juggernaut."
by Purplepeople on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:49:20 PM EST

Bah, stupid laptop.... (2.00 / 2)

... hadn't meant to post anything, but since I'm here now ...

I can't say I'm surprised by this to any great degree. MoveOn is working against her so I wouldn't expect her to be thinking kind thoughts about them. I'm a bit surprised she said it out loud, but I think all candidates are grappling with the fact that nothing is truly off the record anymore.

I am sort of pissed though that she recycled a real, honest-to-god Karl Rove attack though. Not something "Rovian", but something Rove actually put out there himself to make Dems look weak on security. But there is a decent chance she didn't know that off the top of her head and this was a legit mistake, so even that I give her something of a pass on.

Having said all that, it is never a good idea in any contest to provide bulletin board material for your opponent. You can bet she just redoubled MoveOn's collective determination and probably provided a ton of new donations to Obama


"Mom, baseball, apple pie, and a unified Democratic juggernaut."
by Purplepeople on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:55:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bah, stupid laptop.... (none / 0)

Oddly enough though... she said it behind closed doors...  Wasn't that he same thing she excoriated Obama for earlier this week?


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:43:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yup (none / 0)

Between this and "screw 'em" there's plenty of evidence she is a flaming hypocrite on this point. And if she catches flak for that she really only has herself to thank. I was just commenting on her actual remarks.


"Mom, baseball, apple pie, and a unified Democratic juggernaut."
by Purplepeople on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:51:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (2.00 / 2)

Good for her it is the truth.  She has gotten slammed by moveon and dkos.  And lets be clear she leads BO in the votes with democrats (and i mean with the 39% of voters that consider themselfs democrats).  BO has won state after state by getting indies and republicans to vote in democratic primaries.

Look that is fine.  But lets also remember that traditional dems are very upset about it.  And i can tell you a lot of these dems dont like BO and are considering voting for McCain.

Case in point. Marko's declaring that HRC is not a democrat and a priori her supporters are not democrats.  We also hear this "screw reagan dems" from BO suppporters.  Well sorry many of these democrats were not consulted that they party was being taken over by this new crowd and dont be surprised if they leave for the GOP.

david


by giusd on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:50:03 PM EST

Re: Clinton (2.00 / 2)

They were never against a war in Afghanistan.  Villify the "enemy" all you want, even if it is fellow Dems, but don't make stuff up about them.  That is a straight-up lie.


by rfahey22 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:12:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (none / 0)

Are you serious when did i say this.

They were never against a war in Afghanistan??

did i miss something.

dg


by giusd on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:28:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (2.00 / 1)

She leads in absolutely NO way. None. She doesn't lead in pledged delegates. She doesn't lead in popular vote. She doesn't lead in number of states won. She does not lead. Period.

And as far as the popular vote goes - there is no recorded number of caucus-goers in Washington, Iowa, Nevada, or several other caucus states...so there IS no actual popular vote tally...but if we were to project one...Obama would probably lead her by over 1.1 million votes.


by Elise on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:13:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (none / 0)

That is not what i wrote.  Read it again.  With voters who state they are democrats, and that is around 39% of voters, hillary clinton has been beating BO. He uses indies and republicans to cross over and vote for him.

david


by giusd on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:30:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (2.00 / 2)

Traditional dems voting McCain? Not traditional in any conventional sense of the word, in any case.


by Fairy Tale on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:19:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (none / 0)

Agreed... that would be a working definition of BAD Dems... not traditional ones.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:44:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (none / 0)

What is it with BO supporters with the need to tell everyone who is or is not a democrat.  IMHO BO supporters are building a party that excludes dems and they just dont understand.

It is like they are saying we make the decission for the dems and everyone else has to go along.  Well i hate to tell you this but a lot of traditional dems do not like BO and your TUDE is one of many reasons why they dont.  And if they bolt in Nov it will TUDES like yours that drive them away.

david


by giusd on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:33:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oy! (2.00 / 1)

She needs to be making nice right now.  This may not be a big story as far as news goes, but it isn't something you want the supers to get wind of either.  Any little thing can be deemed offensive and then it's ballgame over.


This administration is not sinking. This administration is soaring! If anything, they are rearranging the deck chairs on the Hindenburg!
by venavena on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:52:00 PM EST

Move-on screwed themselves.... (2.00 / 3)

I always thought "Move-on" was out there but they had some good ideas, so I tolarated the looney stuff. When I started receiving pro-obama/anti-hillary email, I sent "move-on" an email telling them not to bother me anymore. I stopped checking out "DKos" too. No skin off my back, I'm not the one using the Democratic party as an extended business/profit or not.

The big tent keeps on getting smaller.


by soyousay on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:53:39 PM EST

Re: Move-on screwed themselves.... (none / 0)

And better.


by ProgressiveDL on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:57:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Netroot's Contempt For Clinton Supporters (2.00 / 4)

it's hard not to come away from these comments with the sense that Clinton holds a key part of the Democratic base in contempt.

Whatever Clinton thinks about the activist base, it's nothing compared to the vile attacks launched at her and her supporters by MoveOn, Kos, and the Netroots.

This despite the fact that it was Clinton who had the spine to send Wolfson on O'Reilly to defend Kos.  Never mind that Clinton voted against censuring MoveOn, while Obama skipped out of the Senate just minutes before the vote was held.

We Clinton supporters who have been attacked, and banned all over internet know what we're talking about, and perhaps, just how she feels.


by BigBoyBlue on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:53:41 PM EST

Re: The Netroot's Contempt For Clinton Supporters (2.00 / 1)

If she thinks our attacks are vile, wait until she sees what the republicans will do in the general.

**Sound familiar??

:-)


by Elise on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:21:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Netroot's Contempt For Clinton Supporters (2.00 / 1)

MoveOn was created to defend the Clintons, by the way...


by Fairy Tale on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:21:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Some sacred cows (2.00 / 3)

MoveOn presents itself as representing the base of the Democratic party and liberals, but actually they only represent a small part of it.  A very small part.  Most people are not as entralled with it as some on the internet think.  They have actually been embarrassing to many of us at times, and just a too big cumbersome interest group at other times.  Many resigned from MO when they endorsed Obama, because they were only partially representing their membership in doing so.  God forbid that Clinton would say something against them or one group or other in the "base" of the party.  So now, any criticism of an Obama supporter or a sacred organization to some is as evil as speaking against Obama himself.


by Scotch on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:54:27 PM EST

Re: Wrong (none / 0)

Well of course anything written by MoveOn is going to describe them that way.  We haven't yet defined progressive to the satisfaction of everyone involved and what is seen as progressive to some, seems like an organization who took the word progressive and used it as their own invention.  It is what the person looking at it sees in it.  The membership number comes from who knows where.  Once they decide you are a member they are hard to shake.


by Scotch on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:14:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrong (2.00 / 1)

You think they invented they had 3.2 million members?


by Fairy Tale on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:23:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrong (none / 0)

I want to know who they count as members, and if it includes passerbys who are window shopping at best.


by Scotch on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:26:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrong (2.00 / 1)

Members donate.

That's pretty much the definition in the non-profit world.  Those aren't 3.2 million "window shoppers," they're part-time activists.  People who traditionally help with Dem GOTV and door-to-door canvassing operations, as well as funding down-ticket candidates.

And Clinton just pissed all over them.  Smart lady.


by Capt America on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:35:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A Clinton Wedgie (none / 0)

All indications are this "leak" came from the Clinton camp.  This is an obvious attempt to create a wedge issue, to try to marginalize the left wing as ultra-left and appeal to the conservative part of the Party in PA.  Yet one more page ripped out off the Rove playbook.


by Piuma on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:55:22 PM EST

Re: A Clinton Wedgie (1.75 / 4)

Do you have any evidence of that .

Or is this more of your baseless tantrums.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:05:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Clinton Wedgie (2.00 / 2)

I think this would be counter-productive for her . . . as Obama is going to raise millions off this 'leak' from all the moveon.org members that feel offended. It will also distract her surrogates on the Sunday AM shows.

I will have to rarely agree with you . . . Central PA could care less about this . . . but leaking this just gave Obama the money for another two weeks of ads in Indiana.


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Clinton Wedgie (none / 0)

And what indications would those be? I haven't seen anything about that.  Please share...


"It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for subtlety". Salvor Hardin
by Denny Crane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:22:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (2.00 / 5)

of course  this post has distorted Hillary's remarks.  it is true and not particularly controversial to point out the richie rich activists and college kids have two or three hours to spare and devote to the cult of Obama caucusing.  Hillary supporters on the other hand, waiteresses and waiters, factory workers, mothers with children, seniors, Latinos, not so much.  they're at work or doing the things they do when they're not at work.  I work three jobs, seven days a week.  I support Hillary with all my heart but there is no way I could have attended a caucus.  Thank goodness my state doesn't have 'em.  the caucuses have been inherently unfair to Hillary and her supporters and Obama supporters do act like brownshirts (check the comment threads anywhere) and do try to intimidate people by calling them racist and calling Hillary every name in the book.  so this post can pretend that Hillary is claiming increased turnout is bad, but that's not what she said.  Maybe you should take off your Obama listening device and interpret things fairly.


by joker on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:55:55 PM EST

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (2.00 / 2)

It's funny that only when Clinton started losing caucuses did these enemies of democracy, which have existed for decades, suddenly become reprehensible to some.  Why have we allowed the plutocrats of Iowa, Nevada, Montana, etc. to dictate our president all these many years?


by rfahey22 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:16:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (none / 0)

And there are many more of us who have been saying for years that caucuses are ridiculous and undemocratic.


"It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for subtlety". Salvor Hardin
by Denny Crane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:29:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic (none / 0)

Hey, I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but I understand that some states just don't have the money for a primary.  But, obviously the candidates themselves knew the system under which they'd be running, and most if not all of them could have attempted to reform the system beforehand.  Isn't this an example of "whining" beneath a potential commander-in-chief?


by rfahey22 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:43:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (2.00 / 1)

Yep thats me....Excuse me as I have to tend to my yacht....


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:56:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (none / 0)


   Richie rich activists? You're either really bitter or just mis-informed. Hillary has plenty of rich supporters, as does Obama. Obama has also has plenty of working supporters (unless of course you believe that the African American population in this country is rich and not working...hmmm)

  I work for $2.75/hr plus tips and I support Obama.

  Hillary lost the caucus states b/c she didn't show up. Her fault. Not the "activist base."


by southernman on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:08:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I listened to the comments and she was not (2.00 / 3)

... attacking MoveOn, as best I could tell. She stated, matter-of-factly, that MoveOn disagreed with her, particularly on foreign policy. She's right.

She took a mild swipe at activists in claiming that activists show up for caucuses and these activists have "intimidated" her supporters at caucus sites.

All in all, I think this is another mountain being made out of a molehill. She was attempting, primarily, to explain to her funders/backers why Obama was rolling up huge dollars in online donations and she was struggling.

It was excuse-making, but it didn't seem particularly egregious to me.


by Bob Johnson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:59:07 PM EST

Re: I listened to the comments and she was not (2.00 / 2)

"MoveOn didn't even want us to go into Afghanistan."

That's what pisses me off.  Spreading Karl Rove lies about a group whose purpose was to stop them...


But in the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope.
by thezzyzx on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:02:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I listened to the comments and she was not (none / 0)

Bob, you're right on target with this one.


"It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for subtlety". Salvor Hardin
by Denny Crane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:18:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Read again (none / 0)

"We have been less successful in caucuses because it brings out the activist base of the Democratic Party. MoveOn didn't even want us to go into Afghanistan. I mean, that's what we're dealing with. And you know they turn out in great numbers. And they are very driven by their view of our positions, and it's primarily national security and foreign policy that drives them. I don't agree with them. They know I don't agree with them. So they flood into these caucuses and dominate them and really intimidate people who actually show up to support me."


by Fairy Tale on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:27:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This isn't worthy of being a front page post. (none / 0)

It's stupid and it's trivia. If folks want to call out Stephanopoulos for his antics, then one shouldn't repeat his mistake here.


by Bob Johnson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:28:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Full agreement here. (none / 0)


You haven't seen impatient until you've seen a monkey waiting for a donut.
by bjones on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:50:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But she was wrong on Afghanistan. (none / 0)

MoveOn supported the invasion of Afghanistan, post-9/11.


by Bob Johnson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:46:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I listened to the comments and she was not (none / 0)

What part of her FP differs from MoveOn I wonder.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:11:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Kyl-Lieberman vote, certainly. (none / 0)

But, mainly, she was offering up excuses to her funders/supporters for why she was getting her ass kicked in online fundraising.


by Bob Johnson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:16:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I Agree (2.00 / 1)

Substantively, I agree with you.  This was an attempt to explain Obama's unexpected success, and likely the expression of some frustration against groups and people who are more liberal on foreign policy issues than she is.  I don't love her attempt to paint move.on as loony tunes left, but her more hawkish foreign policy views are nothing new.   All in all, not much to see here that we haven't known for a long time.

All that being said, the HRC supporters that were "appalled" and "outraged" by Obama's gaffe with bittergate look pretty ridiculous right now trying to explain this away as "diffferent" than Obama's mistake.  Neither issue should have mattered and each represented a candidate in a less than perfectly articulate moment.  Yet strangely, this doesn't matter at all and Obama still hates [insert segment of the Democratic party].  Please god, let the silly season end.  


by HSTruman on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:32:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I just wroite this iin the open thread... (2.00 / 1)

Reality check on Clinton's MoveOn comments:

A close reading of the transcript shows that Hillary was offering up feeble excuses to her funders/supporters for why she was getting her ass kicked in online fundraising.

The rest of her baloney is tangential to her primary purpose which was to say, "The reason I suck at online fundraising is because Obama was endorsed by MoveOn," instead of telling the real truth which was, "I'm the big money candidate so I never gave a shit about hustling nickel-and-dime donations from the little people."

That's all this is. It's an attempt to shift blame for yet another one her campaign's failures onto someone/something else rather than her own pathetic campaign management and planning. Thus, that's why the complaints about caucuses were also thrown into the mix.

It's someone else's fault, not her or Mark Penn or the other overpaid geniuses.


by Bob Johnson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:56:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I listened to the comments and she was not (none / 0)


  Bob, you are right except where she used Karl Rove points about MoveOn that have been repudiated...such as saying MoveOn opposed the war in Afghanistan..IT DID NOT!!

 That kind of garbage from a Democratic nominee hopeful, to say such nonsense about a DEMOCRATIC base group is just appallingly stupid.

 I agree some people are going crazy about it....but it was a monumentally stupid thing to say.


by southernman on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:06:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She's right (2.00 / 1)

Daily Kos and Moveon did surveys of their membership which showed it was 99% white or something. It's also extremely male dominated. The netroots is extremely middle-class, white and male and it cannot represent the mostly female, working class electorate which favors her. Middle-class, white male interests are disproportionately represented in the netroots.


--donna darko. I don't read or respond to comments. There's too much hate and misogyny here.
by nonwhiteperson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:59:33 PM EST

Re: She's right (none / 0)

I have no idea why you got troll rated (there is no reason for you to be based on this comment), but I'd like to see a source on some of your claims.  


by ProgressiveDL on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:01:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's right (none / 0)

Those demographics are the same as the Marxists and communists at the beginning of the 20th century.  White Male, intellectuals from a new middle class who believe their ideals are perfect and all should follow them.

Even Salon.com had an interesting take on the male-dominated obsession with Obama:
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2008/04 14/obama_supporters

Very insighful post.  Thank you.


by stefystef on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:45:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's right (none / 0)

This is ridiculous - cite please.


by interestedbystander on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 04:07:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Word on Caucuses (2.00 / 1)

I'm surprised by the way caucuses has been talked about this election cycle.  I think that they're just dumb, but everyone comes in knowing the deal.  It's not like Clinton was hit at the last minute with this and had no time to prepare for the caucuses, she just wasn't expecting them to be an issue(places Obama did very well).  With that said, they should do away with them for 2012.


This administration is not sinking. This administration is soaring! If anything, they are rearranging the deck chairs on the Hindenburg!
by venavena on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:04:49 PM EST

Some thoughts (2.00 / 3)

First, MoveOn did not oppose the Afghan war,

Second, Hillary courted MoveOn

Third, she severely overestimates MoveOn's strength...many of the folks I know who support him, and volunteer, have no idea what MoveOn or a Blog does.  The reason she does poorly in Caucus sites is that activists don't like her... most activists are not online activists.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:08:26 PM EST

Re: Clinton chooses scary words to the base. (none / 0)

Maybe she just should have told her doners, and fundraisers that MoveOn and Democratic activists/voters  are bitter, gun carrying, church clinging, immigrant rejecting, country people, and be done with it.  That would have been much better.


by Scotch on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:23:23 PM EST

Re: Clinton chooses scary words to the base. (none / 0)

Or if there were a gay marriage initiative on the ballot or an anti-immigrant initiative on the ballot or an anti-affirmative action measure on the ballot she could have said single-issue voters might come out in force to vote against a,b, or c. Or she could have just called people racist like Ed Rendell did.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:02:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (none / 0)

Do all you Clinton supporters understand NOW why  she is referred to by some as a Republican??  Get it??

Yes, she is not really a Republican.  This is literary device known as HYPERBOLE, in which the speaker exaggerates to drive home a point.

And the point is this: Hillary Clinton is MUCH FARTHER TO THE RIGHT than the majority of Democrats.  She's almost in the middle, between a Democrat and a Republican, just barely coming down on the Democratic side to be self-indentified as a Democrat.

I can understand why Independents, or moderates, or "Reagan Democrats" might like a Democrat so far to the right (that she's de facto in the middle, almost), but the majority of Democrats should NOT like that, or want that.  Or vote for that.  

Because too many of her political views do not mesh with the majority of Democrats.  Clearly, some of them do, but not enough of them.

The leak of this talk will finally, and definitively, kill her campaign.  She likely still will win Pennsylvania, but by less than 5 points.  It's over.  She blew it.  Hallelujah.


Peace, S.
by Reluctantpopstar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:27:07 PM EST

The root word of activism.. (2.00 / 1)

..is active, as in the people who will be actively supporting you, doing precinct work, manning the phones, getting out the vote.  And in this case, keeping President Bill Clinton from being impeached!

How is anybody supposed to get excited about working in this type of campaign?

Trashing a substantial portion of your foot soldiers, ones who lead the way in retaking the congress in 2006, is not the best arguement you can make to the supers that she is the better candidate

 


"You might well think that. I couldn't possibly comment"
by xenontab on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:31:05 PM EST

The root word of activism.. (none / 0)

..is active, as in the people who will be actively supporting you, doing precinct work, manning the phones, getting out the vote.  And in this case, keeping President Bill Clinton from being impeached!

How is anybody supposed to get excited about working in this type of campaign?

Trashing a substantial portion of your foot soldiers, ones who lead the way in retaking the congress in 2006, is not the best arguement you can make to the supers that she is the better candidate

 


"You might well think that. I couldn't possibly comment"
by xenontab on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:31:18 PM EST

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (2.00 / 2)

women not represented on the net?

Start with these

http://firedoglake.com/

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/

http://pandagon.blogsome.com/

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/


"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:41:07 PM EST

Your & HuffPostheadline a gross distortion (none / 0)

of what Hillary is saying. She's talking about MoveOn and a specific subset of activists who she claims intimidated certain caucus goers. NOT: "Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism for Her Struggles" Come on!

Please consider changing HuffPost Obama campaign headlines for accurate ones.


We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.
by fairleft on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:44:24 PM EST

typical obamalites (none / 0)

who will distort anything with the awesome name of Clinton.


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:48:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

a gross distortion (2.00 / 1)

I think most online Democrats consider MoveOn to BE a pretty prominent and important Democratic activist organization. One which, as pointed out, was founded to defend Bill Clinton.

No, we all know exactly what it means, and we are outraged because of it.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:58:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re" HuffPostheadline a gross distortion (2.00 / 1)

Where does she specify a "specific subset"?  It's a far stretch to argue that she isn't disparaging a wide range of Democrat activists.  And what does she means by "intimidate."  Is she actually accusing a large group of Democrats -- enough to swing the vote -- of voter intimidation?  The media is quite bad, but if this is true then I think I would have heard of at least one person being indicted on such charges.  


by froggyman on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:05:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (none / 0)

This is the second expression of outright contempt for Voters who do not support her from Hillary in Three Days.  First, we find out (from three sources) that she said screw'em to white working class males... and now this about Online Progressives.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:47:00 PM EST

Let's see, it's just Washington politics (none / 0)

... of the past that we need to change.  Right, it's just gotcha politics.  It is not really about the issues.

Shrug it off!

Her poll numbers should shoot up!


by Southern Mouth on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:50:06 PM EST

Re: Let's see, it's just Washington politics (none / 0)

Yeah, that's comparable. What Obama did was misspeak. A couple of unfortunate word choices that made his words sound like they meant something they didn't.

Hillary, by contrast, just directly insulted by name the biggest Democratic fundraising and campaigning force out there. It would be like if Obama said, "Who cares about blue collar working class voters? We don't need them. Screw em."


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:55:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary ALWAYS commits (none / 0)

... the terrible act.  Obama - never!


by Southern Mouth on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:40:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Another half truth stupid to say outloud (none / 0)

Immediately after the Obama "bitter" comment came to light one common defense was "he's just saying what we all know to be true."

Well, first of what he said about "clinging" to religion and guns just seemed true from a certain insular perspective.  That and it should have never been said outloud by a saavy politician, no matter how "true" it might be.

So too this Clinton remark -- lots of her supporter are going to nod their heads and say she's only speaking the truth.  Fact is, she's not.  That and she should have never said it outloud.

Neither one of them should be taking off the cuff pot shots at the other's base of support.  


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:00:18 PM EST

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (2.00 / 1)

Millions of Judases, so little time...


by haystax calhoun on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:01:28 PM EST

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (none / 0)

Grassroots stuff

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/18/us/pol itics/18penn.html?em&ex=1208664000&a mp;en=f4b46da65adb1fc5&ei=5087%0A


"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:01:43 PM EST

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism (none / 0)

Wow, how disgusting to diss an grassroot organization that was found to defend you and your husband during the impeachment hearings! That's why it was called MoveOn.  Didn't she diss Al Gore and John Kerry earlier this week?  


by sbbonerad on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:01:57 PM EST

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism (none / 0)


   Sure shows the gratitude of Hillary doesn't it...lol. An organization founded to defend her husband's Presidency, and she's complaining that they've generated a higher base turnout. Unbelievable.
by southernman on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:02:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She's right! (2.00 / 2)

I happen to agree with her. As a 68 yr old life long Democrat I've seen many who called themselves "activists". Well, MoveOn and others like them are  certainly not "activists". They are minority Democratic organizations with too much money and an agenda that is harming the Party. Almost reminds me of the 60s. They believe themselves to be so righteous that they are willing to burn down the house. Too much time and too much money. They'be become republican like but much dumber. Sad.


by fillphil on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:16:21 PM EST

I see (none / 0)

so you define who is an activist is and is not?


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:50:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's right! (none / 0)

Absolutely!  As you can see from the above, the BamaBots are out on the warpath, and are ready to do anything right now to close the deal.

Shame on Arianna for trying to make up for her site's responsibility for "Bittergate" by sticking a knife in Hillary.


by dembluestates on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:00:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (2.00 / 1)

This isn't going to have as big of an effect on Pennsylvania as it is going to make the decision real easy for the superdelegates after she doesn't win PA by a large enough margin.  

It's gonna be real easy for Obama to convince the supers to move en masse to him after PA is a thing of the past, N.C. polls show a huge whooping coming for HRC, and she's alienated the activists that do the door knocking, phone banking, donating, and making of 3rd party commercials.   Stupid, very stupid.  And she's supposed to be the experienced professional.  That's why we're supposed to vote for her.  

Right.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:03:30 PM EST

What Have These Activists Done For Her Lately? (none / 0)

This is laughable. Pamered liberal activists, the Move-On set are virtually all Obama supporters. They are not in her corner. Haven't they even made ads against her? Besides, these activists are a luxury not a necessity as a voting bloc. Faux outrage indeed!

Blue collars and Hispanics (Hillary's support) don't care for the activist class, and their leftward lean and growing agressiveness gives pause to centrist Democrats and more centrist-minded independents, which McCain will helpfully highlight.

Though it is heresy to say, I'm thinking that Clinton is figuring out how to lose in a strategically smart way that preserves her options and influence in the party just in case McCain wins or Barack turns out to be a one-term Jimmy Carter 2.0. Its a bit like the equivalent of pulling out of Iraq carefully. By June she will be on record as having the demonstrated support of Reagan Democrats, growing Hispanics, and women. She does not need the activist class. Frankly let the Move On set figure out how to hold a slippery  Obama to account once he gets in office. There will be much disappointment I'm betting.


by superetendar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:52:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Have These Activists Done For Her Lately? (2.00 / 1)

Umm, she doesn't have them now and she's losing.  Let that sink in for a moment...


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:02:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Have These Activists Done For Her Lately? (none / 0)

Yes, but they will collectively drive the entire Democratic party over the cliff in the end. Hopefully Barack, Dean, Brazille and the gang will follow. If Hillary has to stand to the side while the leftwing stampede continues, so be it. We need a bit of creative destruction and these boutique activists are just the people to supply it.  Onward!


by superetendar on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:15:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Have These Activists Done For Her Lately? (none / 0)

Finally found the GOP to be too incompetent and decided to go republican light with the DLC I guess.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:36:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Boutique activists? (none / 0)


    that's hilarious. What will be left of the party if the activists disappear? Who does Hillary think will vote for her if the Democratic base..DISAPPEARS as you say?

  Let's not forget that, if most activists oppose her, that must be influential..since she's losing.

  Might want to think about that.

  Your argument is a Ralph Nader/Joe Lieberman argument..."I didn't leave the party, they did!"

  Just fantastic!!


by southernman on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:00:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (none / 0)

Likely someone else made this point, but it is an EXTREME misrepresentation to describe Hillary's comments as claiming that "Clinton believes that it is a bad thing that voter turnout in almost every primary and caucus this year has set new records."

Do you not see that she is simply making the claim that she has lost in CAUCUSES because of the activist vote? And since when is it unusual for people to decry the distorting effects of caucuses on the nomination process? Perhaps few politicians openly criticize them -- but then this was not an open meeting.

Really, I'd say I expect more of you, but the problem is I don't.


by frankly0 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:28:24 PM EST

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (none / 0)

I don't think you're reading Todd's post fairly.

He's not denying (and I don't think anybody does) that Obama has done better at the caucuses because he has more support among activists.  

What causes Todd (and many of us) to do a double take is that Hillary is distorting the record.  They were not against the war in Afghanistan.  Period.  

I have no idea whether she made a mistake or on purpose.  But what's disappointing is the reflex to turn them into what atrios calls dirty f*ing hippies.

Ultimately, MoveOn endorsed the other candidate, so I'm not surprised she's attacking them to rally her supporters.  I wish I were more surprised that her campaign is using Republican attacks to do it.


by TL on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:26:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Can't anyone saying anything without being taped? (none / 0)

First Obama, now Hillary.  It's like you can't even have gas without someone getting it on YouTube.  

About Hillary's statement, I believe she's correct.  I think small, netroot groups like Moveon.org and DailyKos have hijacked the Democratic Party and have made their agenda more important than the members of the Democratic Party.  

I have read on other blogs on the aggressive behavior of Obama followers during canvassing and caucuses.  I think MoveOn.org is not as important as they think they are.  I asked three friends if they know who Moveon.org is and they don't even pay attention to political blogs.  Even the Teamsters, who are endorsing Obama, failed to get their members to register for the primary:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail /2008/04/16/teamsters_for_obama_truckin_ bu.html

Count Hillary out at your own peril.


by stefystef on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:33:07 PM EST

Explain (none / 0)

  If what you say is true...then how in the hell did they possibly intimidate Hillary supporters, as she claims?


by southernman on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 11:57:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Peril? (none / 0)

"I think small, netroot groups like Moveon.org and DailyKos have hijacked the Democratic Party and have made their agenda more important than the members of the Democratic Party."

Hmmm.....I tended to think that the agenda of MoveOn was pretty much inline with mainstream progressive values.

Can you give us a solid example of something that MoveOn supported that you feel conflicts with the goals of the Democratic party?


by edmandspath on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:21:28 AM EST

Re: Peril? (none / 0)

small? Moveon.org has over 3 MILLION members!


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:09:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (none / 0)

Because it was created to defend Bill Clinton doesn't mean that it has not evolved into something else during this election cycle. MoveOn has actively campaigned against HRC and has hurled some vitriolic  mess her way. One couldsay they are using the organization against her as if she was a Republican. It is not neutral anymore.

This will not hurt her. Those who do not support her will think it is awful, and those who do will think it is fine. The undecideds will make up their own minds independent of this comment.

She is perfectly correct about the caucuses and I think the system should be changed for the next election. When someone can get more delegates for less popular votes, this is not democracy at its finest. And yes, I know these were the rules. The sad thing is that most voters did not know that these were the rules. Now that it has all come to light, the party needs to fix it.


"The Bumble Bee flies because it thinks it can."
by LadyEagle on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:47:09 AM EST

Re: not Bill Clinton's MoveOn (none / 0)

Had MoveOn kept to their original mission of standing against attacks driven not by rationality and public discourse but by emotion and the manipulation of language then they would have continued to support the progressive values that EACH Democratic candidate will carry with them. The MoveON crowd has veered too far to the left politically and if we follow their tactics and allow them to lead the party we will surely see the Democrats defeated in November once again.

I had participated in and supported MoveON since its inception, but asked to be removed when the decision was made to support one Democratic candidate over another.


by pan230oh on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:27:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic (none / 0)

Moveon.org has a petition drive that will be sent to ABC and other media outlets demanding that they stop wasting the public's time on gotcha politics and begin sticking to the issues.

The petition can be accessed from Moveon's home page.

I urge all to sign- BO and HRC supporters.


"Beauty, more than bitterness, makes the heart break." Sara Teasdale
by april34fff on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 11:24:58 AM EST

I wonder how Clinton plans (none / 0)


   to get elected in November w/out the "activist base" of the Party in which in which she seeks to become a Presidential nominee!

  Explain it to us Senator Clinton. You want to be the DEMOCRATIC nominee, yet you are complaining about high turnout amongst the ACTIVIST BASE of the DEMOCRATIC PARTY?

  My goodness!!


by southernman on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 11:55:09 AM EST

Remarkable is one word for it (none / 0)


   Stupid is another.
by southernman on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 11:55:46 AM EST

Re: Disparaging Party "Activists" (none / 0)

as a group is not the same as disparaging and depersonalizing an entire group of American citizens who might be members of either party


by pan230oh on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:22:20 PM EST

ARE CAUCUS GOERS "VOTERS?" (none / 0)

If intimidation of Clinton supporters on self-decribed progressive Blogs is any indication of what went on at state caususes, Clinton is right.


by CLK on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:25:32 PM EST

Re: Clinton Blames Increased Democratic Activism f (none / 0)

I am a wavering Hillary supporter.  I was also a die hard Clinton (both Hillary and Bill) back in the 90s.  I now have DCF--"Defending Clinton Fatigue." I will vote for her if she gets the nomination. However, I won't defend her any longer.  She exhausts me.  I don't think I'm the only one, either.

What I will do no matter which Democrat wins the nomination, is unfailingly support the DEMOCRATIC candidate.

Come on, folks, whether you are an Obama supporter or a Clinton supporter, don't be so vitriolic against the other candidate.  It will come back to haunt you.  Reagan got one thing right-- don't disparage a fellow party member in your campaigning.  


by citizensane on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:31:53 PM EST

This is worse than wrong, it's stupid (none / 0)

Look, this is a Democratic primary election. Democratic primaries are decided by the Democratic base and Democratic activists. How the hell do you expect to win them if you do things like write off 3 million of the most intensely engaged voters, volunteers, and donors in the Party out of hand? This would be bad enough in a general election, but in a primary, it's worse than bad, it idiotic. If she disagrees so strongly with MoveOn on foreign policy, she should have made the effort to convince them, or failing that, at least tried to throw them a bone or show some sort of respect for their concerns. That's how you win elections, dummies.

It's not like MoveOn is a highly ideological, totally intractable organization. It's very diverse and makes decisions democratically, which is how they made their endorsement decision as well. She should have been courting them just like campaigns court unions and dozens of other important groups within the party. I'm sure lots of MoveOn's membership would have been more than willing to march into hell for her if she had just asked them. Christ, the organization was founded to defend her husband during the impeachment, and is in many ways based around a philosophy of pragmatically and doggedly fighting back against the right. She should have been their natural candidate going in, but she failed to take them seriously and cultivate them, and paid the price.

And argue what you will pro or contra the merits of caucuses going forward, but for this cycle everyone knew the rules going in and should have planned their campaigns accordingly. Thinking you can win caucuses while pissing all over the people who do the grunt work to run them and get out voters for them is not very bright.

The fact is that they got greedy. I'm sure they appreciate the help of netroots and other party activists, but they don't want to be truly beholden to us if they can avoid it, and the Clinton campaign thought they could get an early knockout on Super Tuesday and have their cake and eat it too. They thought wrong, and have nobody to blame but themselves. All ideological or personal differences aside, they ran a stupid and shortsighted campaign that utterly failed to recognize and account for the vast changes to the political landscape and process since the 90's. I admit to disagreeing ideologically with HRC rather strongly from the beginning, but I never doubted her political acumen and have been almost shocked at how inept and out of touch they have been. They're running a 2008 Democratic primary election campaign like it's a 1996 national election campaign, and they're surprised that they aren't doing so well? Sheesh. What I can't quite understand is how strong her online support still is, in spite of all of this.


by jddunn on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 03:43:33 PM EST


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