MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND

It is amazing how often this primary season has prompted me to haul out a spyglass to peer back into my life. A lot of the memories are soft focus now, a little more so with each passing year; but the time period from the early 60's to the end of the 70's is when I was young. And I hold the recollections of this time to be dear, shared only with intimates. I have never written about them although I am a fierce critic of those who do.

The tale of the 60's and 70's  has never been told to my satisfaction probably because I keep seeking my story, and it is never there.  I was more political than a flower child. Free love and drugs were ok, if that was your thing, and I smoked grass, especially when I went dancing; but to me this aspect of the era was more incidental than substantial. Love-ins, flower power, bell bottoms and tambourines were the trappings. The meat of  the era was Political and no song summed it up better than "Something Happening Here" by  Buffalo Springfield:  

There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware

I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speaking their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind

I think it's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side

It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away

We better stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, now, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

The song captures an entire gestalt, the mindset of a generation not only committed to ending a war of intervention, but also determined to make the world into a better, safer, more humane place. One fit for children and animals, which was a slogan one often saw on posters.  But we were not self conscious about it. People rarely wrote things down.  No one imagined how this time in our lives would become almost mythological. We all believed the way it was is the way it would always be. I didn't write much either. In those days I was just a face in the crowd. I listened, clapped, carried signs, and cheered others. This was fine with me. I didn't aspire to more of a role. The working class part of me remained a little withheld. It took a lot for me to break the law; so many others were way ahead of me.  And yet it seems to me now, that I was there, at so many of the Big Moments.

In 1963 during the Cuban Missile crises I was a 17 year-old freshman at Berkeley terrified I would never get to have sex before we were vaporized by a Russian bomb. I had already joined SLATE, which many now consider to be the beginning of the New Left and the Grandaddy of all the student movements that would follow on.  The next year some of  my friends in SLATE would help to found the Free Speech Movement, but I had already have moved on.

In those days I checked in and out of colleges the way some people check in and out of motels. Scholarships always appeared. Middle class teachers seemed to view me as the working class kid `with all the potential,' and remaking me in their image was a project they enjoyed. At USC, where I had a journalism scholarship, I came close to graduating until  Barbara Meyerhoff, the anthropologist who became famous but whose acclaim had not yet arrived, 'adored' my final project. This was a two hour reel-to-reel tape of carefully selected songs to communicate our `revolution.' She asked me to write a paper with her that would accompany the tape and which we would present  at an international gathering of anthropologist's. The music had to speak for itself I declared. So I declined.  Myerhoff  alternately cajoled and ranted, but I remained adamant because the essence of the whole project was: No Words.

My generation didn't trust words at all. Words were the way people lied and exploited other people. What we trusted was music. It was our salvation, our language, and our guided missile launched at the brain of the war machine. From Janis Joplin to  Marvin Gay; from  Donovan to the Rolling Stones; from  the Platters to  Simon & Garfunkle; from Joan Baez to Jimi Hendrix, from the Beatles to  Pete Seeger, we gamboled inside  the greatest explosion of popular music styles  than at any other time in American history.

The altercation with Myerhoff  unnerved me and true to my MO in those years,  I left school to seek fame and fortune back east.  Myerhoff eventually came around and gave me a notebook for my trip into `who I would become.' I threw it in the passenger seat, slipped behind the wheel of my blue VW bug, and headed into the future with the radio on high and all my failures still to come.

I arrived in Manhattan in time for the March 7, 1970  townhouse explosion in Greenwich Village which killed 3 weather underground members who were preparing a bomb to be set off at a noncommissioned officers' dance at fort Dix, New Jersey. The bomb, a makeshift anti-personnel weapon  studded with roofing nails, exploded prematurely killing Theodore Gold, Diana Oughton, and Terry Robbins. Weather Underground members Kathy Boudin and Cathlyn Wilkerson, upstairs at the time of the blast, were helped by rescue workers and then disappeared before they could be questioned. William Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn also disappeared.  The Townhouse Explosion on 11th St. became one of  my first feature stories  for the Associated Press.

A few months later I wrote the headlines that appeared on the AP sign that went around the top of a building in Time Square. Late in the day on Monday, May 4  that sign announced: Ohio National Guard Memebers Murder Four Kent State Students. A huge crowd gathered and police feared a riot; so they called us to take down the sign. I refused. This became my first taste of the power that comes with authority, and what began as a taste became a meal when  on Tuesday the AP not only  backed me up, but lauded my judgment.

Still, I left the AP some months later after I participated in a Red Stockings consciousness-raising group and became a full time activist in the women's movement. After waving goodbye to the upscale West Village, I moved to the East Village where I ate at Leshkos and hung out with radicals. Again I was a nobody. A cipher really. But I now embraced feminism with a passion I had  until then only given to the antiwar movement.   My apartment on E. 6th St, a railroad flat and a 5th floor walkup, was across  from the first gay rights office in Manhattan and barely a block from the old Fillmore East.

And this is when the Weather Underground entered my own personal space, impacting me outwardly as well as  reverberating internally, so that I finally decided where I stood on the issue of violence and civil disobedience. You could not be a radical in that time without confronting violence: the  use of force by the government, `violent action' by our side, the sds who immolated a dog with napalm, gay kids kicked and mauled by police, protestors of all kinds beaten with nightsticks and worse, not to mention Vietnam and My Lai. As early as Los Angeles, when  I worked for the City News Service, we carried a story saying that no one had been seriously hurt in the Century City anti-war demonstrations, when our own reporter was in the hospital, perhaps paralyzed from injury to his spinal cord after the police shoved him and he fell on a sprinkler head.  

Violence was everywhere. The best leaders of my generation disappeared in blood drenched assassinations. Nightsticks and police dogs and bombs dotted the south like ornaments on some macabre tree where hate and prejudice replaced the normal limbs of life. A woman was murdered and the police questioned me and my friends. We knew it was her boyfriend, but they didn't believe us.

How far were you prepared to go? We talked about it All the time. And even in sleep violence prevailed. I would soon move into a woman's collective in Washington DC, and after that I often dreamed that men with long handled axes, who could slip under doors and slide along walls, chased me with red tongues lolling like mad dogs announcing their intention to hack me into pieces for moving in with a `bunch of women.'

It was because of the collective we named Amazing Grace that I met some Weather Underground people, and then my phone was tapped by the feds.  I was one of 4 from New York invited to join this collective, which was to be housed in Washington DC. In the planning stages we drove down to DC on a Friday night only to find our place to stay had evaporated. So someone, a friend of a friend of the DC women, fixed us up at another `house.'

I didn't like the looks of the place from the second I saw it. Weeds grew everywhere, the blinds were all down, inside there was only a hodge podge of furniture; and it was like no one actually lived there. Everything was makeshift. The kitchen smelled and the counters appeared overrun by red spaghetti splashes and dried milk stains. Some cereal boxes, one canted sideways decorated the kitchen table.  The faces of the people I met were pinched and hard. They didn't smile. A kind of hostile paranoia invaded the place. I never got the story straight, but in the middle of the night we were awakened and told to get out fast. The police were going to raid the house because Weather Underground people were there now or had been there right before us.

As we were rushing out to our car, a woman from the `house' whispered to me, 'Be careful. The pigs will nail you. They are taking everyone down.' I was so furious I couldn't speak. We were threats to society now. And you couldn't just go and say, "Hey, policeman, sir; this is all a big mistake.'

And that's when what I felt about violence crystallized. Sure, I was scared. But the fear did not arise out of some imagined harm. I was scared that I would be seen as someone I was not. Someone who could kill innocents. And I couldn't. I was a lot more Ghandi than terrorist.  I didn't know that word then, but I didn't have to know the word to understand the behavior. These people hated. They killed. And they did it because they believed in themselves above all others. I would place my commitment to peace and to liberation alongside anyone's in those days, but I would not kill to make the world more like I believed it should be.

Timothy Noah in Slate Aug22, 2001 wrote:

The weather underground was full of rich kids who thought they knew best. Who wanted to kill in order to stop killing. To many on the left they were heroes, I thought they were jackals. And Lewis Ayers exemplified the worst when on 9/11, 2001, in an interview for his book " Fugitive" he said in the NY times:

I don't regret setting bombs; I feel we didn't do enough.

...Much of what Ayers self-interestedly leaves out of his book is more personally embarrassing than illegal. Ayers takes care not to dwell on his own Establishment credentials. (His father was chairman of the energy company Commonwealth Edison, a fact Ayers conveys only by writing, "My dad worked for Edison.") Ayers omits any discussion of his famous 1970 statement, "Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at." He also omits any discussion of his wife Bernardine Dohrn's famous reaction to the Manson killings, as conveyed by journalist Peter Collier: "Dig it. First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, then they even shoved a fork into a victim's stomach! Wild!" (In a 1993 Chicago Magazine profile, Dohrn claimed, implausibly, that she'd been trying to convey that "Americans love to read about violence.") Nor does he address fellow radical Jane Alpert's charge that Ayers was "notorious for his callous treatment and abandonment of Diana Oughton before her death and for his generally fickle and high-handed treatment of women" (though Ayers does manage to get across the message, to those few who haven't heard it, that the late 1960s and early 1970s were a golden age for getting laid).

slateid/1008160/

I didn't last in the DC collective long. Rich kids who wanted to play poor infuriated me.  I returned to my apartment to find out my phone was tapped and that the police had been by. The phone tap, accompanied by clicking sounds and by guys who would occasionally snicker at some conversations intended to be private, lasted for years. I got used to it. And eventually people would stop by to hear what a real tap sounded like. It became a giggle.

And 'Grandma,' an older Ukrainian lady of indeterminate age with an expanding waistline and grey hair who daily sat on the front stoop of our building with her Yuncheck, a fiercesome German shepherd, turned out to be my friend. 'Grandma' guarded the building. There is no other way to describe it. No one got in our out without first getting by Grandma and Yunchek. My friends and I would laugh how if the police ever came they would have a hard time with Grandma. I never saw this as anything but a joke. And then the police did come.

"I tell them notink," she announced grabbing my arm as I walked up the stairs. It took awhile for me to understand from her broken English that the police had actually come looking for me. When I asked her to describe them she said, "Men in suits with no smiles. They want you."  I stayed with friends for a few days. And then mustered the courage to go home. They never came for me again.

I do not understand how William Ayers wound up teaching at a University, holding forth on how he didn't do anything wrong. I can understand people in succeeding generations wanting to talk to the real deal. But I cannot understand lauding a man who does not regret setting bombs. I believe Weather Underground takes responsibility for over 200 bombings nationwide. I also cannot understand the attitude of a man who wants to be President of all the people of this country associating with Ayers. Let's not debate the association. It is well documented and it goes  beyond 'we met a few times.'

The crucial question to me is similar to the quesiton I have about Wright, and it goes to the issue of his judgment. I was 23. Obama is twice my age, and these associations are recent. For me they have set off an alarm. Every person who loves this country and who hates injustice, sooner or later, must come to terms with how he or she will seek change.  Obama, has to answer for his associates. He cannot dodge the issue by saying they are 'harmless.'  These people are not innocent. And  Obama's association with Wright and Ayers is haunted by the cries of the ordinary and everyday people who have been killed by prejudice and by bombs all over this precious and vulnerable world.



Display:


Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 1)

Bill Ayers is making his own case on his personal blog, taking (in an item written before the debate) a bemused tone toward his "episodic notoriety."

He contests the notion -- central to the objection to him, as opposed to other people who were bad actors 35 years ago -- that he he has "no regrets" about bombings -- but he doesn't exactly contradict his 2001 line that "I don't regret setting bombs."

  I'm sometimes asked if I regret anything I did to oppose the war in Vietnam, and I say, "No, I don't regret anything I did to try to stop the slaughter of millions of human beings by my own government." Sometimes I add, "I don't think I did enough." This is then elided:  he has no regrets for setting bombs and thinks there should be more bombings.

He also denies that bombing police stations, military installations, and other sites was "terrorism."

  Terrorism -- according to both official U.S. policy and the U.N. -- is the use or threat of random violence to intimidate, frighten, or coerce a population toward some political end. ... I've never advocated terrorism, never participated in it, never defended it.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0 408/Ayers_speaks.html#comments


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:54:50 PM EST

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 5)

According to that definition, the attack on the Pentagon was not terrorism.

He may have a hard time selling that argument.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:04:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 1)

It depends who is doing the defining....

When was the last time, or even he first time, you heard someone in the MSM refer to the bombing or arson of an abortion clinic as "domestic terrorism"...?  It is terrorism, but that is not how it is defined in the media, by the media.  Whereas if ELF sets fire to multi-million dollar homes being built, that is called eco-terrorism by almost any outlet that covers it.

Personally, I think the motives behind the actions are more important to a description of their actions in such cases.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:08:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You would run into trouble with that as well... (2.00 / 3)

who defines what is an acceptable motive ?

What are previous examples of acceptable motives ?  What are previous examples of unacceptable motives ??

If your meta-motive is acceptable (e.g., you are trying to save the world), but your local-motive (you are trying to save the world, but in order to do that, you have to kill all redhaired men between the ages of 31 and 33) is not, then does that make you a terrorist ?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 04:34:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

he's pre-9-11 (2.00 / 2)

in a post 9-11 dictionary. It used to be considered smart to know old radicals that got arrested for setting bombs, or robbing backs, or killing cops.  There's a guy bush protects that shot down a plane.  It's like a romance with criminals, jesse James, and many thought it was cool,  And they're old now, not likely to bomb. Barack wasn't very old when it was happening, but he did know about the trials, they occasionally catch them now and try them and sentence them too.  Perhaps it didn't occur to him that it became very uncool after 9-11, when the reality of it hit home. It was after that I think that this guy threw a fund-raiser for Barack in his own home that Barack and Michele attended, is that correct?  So, like his pastor, it's a f-u, not to America but to Democrats who have voted for him, he's taken up our time thinking these things don't matter.  He was supposed to air his own dirty laundry and give the party members a chance to see this stuff before he ran for office. he's still holding back old tax returns from those days when he has shady associations he thinks are so not the point. If the point it that he can't win he's supposed to have said so not waiting for Hillary to be asked and to pretend all of a sudden she can see into the future and he has it locked up.  


Hillary - alternative energy
by anna shane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:45:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he's pre-9-11 (none / 0)

"It was after that I think that this guy threw a fund-raiser for Barack in his own home that Barack and Michele attended, is that correct?"

The fundraiser was in 1996


by dead goat on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:08:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 8)


Ayers is typical of an entire generation of affluent kids who believed that they knew what was right and would kill to do it. His evasion on the issue of maiming and destruction is typical of the sort of sophistry this group espoused--and still do. Obama's connection with Ayers is appalling.  
by linfar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:04:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am not aware of anyone killed by (2.00 / 8)

Ayers.

My recollection is that many of the bombings were accompanied by calls telling people to get out.  That said, howver, I am not defending Ayers.

But as to major point of guilt by association with Obama, it is a McCarthyite tactic and you should be ashamed of it.


by TomP on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:17:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am not aware of anyone killed by (none / 0)

Naah!! This is not guilt by association. This guy is running for presidency on one thing and one thing only: Judgement he claims he made about Iraq war. [Lets give him that, although I think it is a convenient argument where he didnt have to risk his political neck coming from a very liberal chicago district and not having to vote on the record, on Iraq. Now if he had risked his political neck on censure like Feingold or on cheney impeachment like Kucinich or on Iraq funding votes, then it is easy to believe his judgement and standing by his judgement despite political costs. He has clearly not shown any of that. But thats another story for another day]. If you keep hammering your opponent on judgement then you have to answer for your judgement. Can anybody in his right mind listen to Wright's lunatic claim that HIV is a conspiracy to inflict the disease on AAs and call the guy his mentor and refer to his other "community services" in defense, be considered to have an iota of good judgement? HOw can any politician who runs for the presidency having fund raised by someone who claims that bombing is justified in defense of stopping a war, claim he has judgement. This is not just guilt by association. Shouldnt a politician running for public office not have the judgement to reject funds raised by individuals who have no regret for advocating violence. Let alone a guy who is running for the presidency. I think the reality is that Obama couldnt care less if the guy advocated for violence or not, as long he was getting the dough he needed to run for office and since he was running at a very liberal state senate district at the time, he didnt think it would matter much, as the alternative was a republican.


by pdxarch on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 03:19:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 2)

Two points:
1) Not making an excuse for them, but apparently none of the Weather Underground's bombings killed anyone. The only deaths were members of the Weather Underground who accidentally set off their own bomb.

2) So are you really concerned with Bill Clinton letting two members of the Weather Underground off the hook less than half-way through their prison sentence?


Senator Obama will be formally nominated on August 28, 2008 - the 45th Anniversary of Dr. King's "I Have A Dream Speech."
by brimur on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:53:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is this meant (2.00 / 2)

to be a defense of Ayers? While I think the questioning at the debate was fairly base (although not as base as it will get in the general), I don't think that posting Ayers' excuses is a good idea... for any of us.
by linc on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:04:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is this meant (2.00 / 1)

God forbid we should try and understand the motivations and perspectives of people who see the world in a radically different way then our own. We should just keep on assuming everything we think is right and everyone who disagrees is wrong. You know, just like the terrorists.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:15:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well OK (2.00 / 4)

lets convince general election voters that Ayers isn't all that bad.  Good luck with that one.


OMG- we are so doomed...
by linc on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:16:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well OK (2.00 / 2)

Doomed I tells ya...!

Seriously, name one politician in the Senate that does not have a questionable association in his or her past...?  Let me define questionable as, someone you might get asked about our association with...

No one comes to mind for me, and certainly none of the three last people running for President!


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:21:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I know you forgot though (2.00 / 3)

but thats not what Obama is running on.  Isn't NOT more of the same?  Isn't he supposed to be better than all the rest?


by linc on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 04:25:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I know you forgot though (2.00 / 0)

I have questionable associates in my background...  but I would be a breath of fresh air as well...


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 05:09:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well OK (2.00 / 1)

Ayers doesn't matter. There isn't anything there. Whether you think Ayers should be in jail or ostracized or forgiven doesn't matter. Today, Ayers IS a respected education professor, a professor Mayor Daley of Chicago called on for help when he decided to take on school reform.

They live in the same community. It was the former Illinois state senator who arranged the meet and greet at the Ayers home in the 1990s to introduce Obama to the community. In 2001, Ayers donated $200 to an Obama campaign. Go on opensecret.org and look up all the individuals who donated $250 and check out all the backgrounds, then come back to me and tell me this makes a difference. Last, they sat on a CHARITY BOARD together. It wasn't like, hey friend, I'm joining this board come with me. They were both independently chosen to act as board members to a charity that does good works. Now that is controversial!

If this is what Senator Clinton and Senator McCain are relying on against Senator Obama, then they must be scrubbing the bottom of the barrel and Obama has nothing to worry about.

Jeez, people get a grip. I don't begrudge your support of Clinton. But don't you have better arguments in support of your candidate? If you don't then maybe you should think about why you are supporting her.


by batgirl71 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 02:31:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is this meant (2.00 / 3)

LS, if you would read the diary, that is a lot of what I was hoping to do


by linfar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:27:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is this meant (2.00 / 0)

Indeed, but I was responding to linc.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:36:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is this meant (2.00 / 2)

Just because, one may have have a different belief system, does not make it, okay to bomb buildings, civilian or government.


by bird5 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:48:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is this meant (2.00 / 1)

I would assume you are then critical of Hillary's vote for our immoral war?????


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:51:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is this meant (2.00 / 0)

Thanks for those deep words of wisdom.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:54:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You can lead a person to knowledge... (2.00 / 2)

... but you can't make them think.


by dystopianfuturetoday on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:44:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 5)

First we learned that it was a political fixer currently on trial for bribery that financed the start of BO's political career, then we learned that a radical, anti-American pastor helped him gain street cred to win his first political race in his heavily AA congressional district, now we learn that an unrepetant domestic terrorist helped introduce BO to the uber-liberal, white guilt wing of the Chicago political machine.  Great......


by Boston Whaler on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:59:45 PM EST

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 2)

Well, if that is all you know of Obama, then I'm not surprised that you are disheartened...

Try Googling "Obama", there is a lot of other stuff out there.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:22:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 1)

Try googling Clinton, you get alot MORE.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:25:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 7)

Yes, Whaler. His mentors and associates are speaking volumes!!!


by linfar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:01:30 PM EST

Yep (2.00 / 2)

and as much as we liberals care to care or not, its not us who will ultimately make the final judgment in the general election.


by linc on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:11:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (2.00 / 5)

Exactly. It is amazing to me the way so many of Obama's supporters act as if these associations don't mean anything. That's why I wrote the diary. Ayers is a big deal. A Very Big Deal. this guy is not someone A President can buddy around with.


by linfar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:14:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (2.00 / 0)

So now the meanness comes out - the ad hominem smearing doublespeak. "Buddy around with?" Who are you kidding Linfar? So you're buddies with everyone here because you share the same blog? There's pure venom underneath the soft focus. This diary is like Streisand's 'Memories' with a nail bomb attached


by brit on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 05:16:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (2.00 / 2)

I think it's worth stating explicitly why this matters in Obama's case in particular. He has made it a feature of his campaign that he is going to draw on the well of his talented All-Star supporters to assist him as he manges the country. Ayers, Wright, Powers--these are representative of who's in that well. That's why these associations matter. I don't want someone like Wright heading up any faith-based initiatives (which Obama plans to keep), or anyone like him. It looks as if Obama may bring a bad cast of actors to Washington if he's the nominee and eventual Pres, apparently the direct opposite of the neocons.


Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are. - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
by anna belle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:36:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (none / 0)

nice Job slipping Powers in there, good slander, I'm just guessing that Hillary's association with people like Madeline "Let 'em starve" Albright is somehow less troubling than Powers in your view, I mean after all you can't be a real leader if your not big on killing brown people.  


by Socraticsilence on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:47:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (2.00 / 1)

No he hasn't. Ayers has never been associated with his campaign officially or unofficially. As for Wright, Wright was his personal pastor, PERSONAL. But, yah, you are right about Power so congratulations, you get a 33%. Power was one of his advisers and rightly so. She said something she shouldn't have in a moment of anger and apologized. That doesn't mean she is not qualified to be an adviser and would not be an asset in an Obama government. I, for one, hope Obama appoints individuals that are "the direct opposite of neocons." The neocons have done enough damage to this country.


by batgirl71 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 02:49:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (2.00 / 1)

Um, he isn't a buddy with Ayers. Stop trying to stretch the truth. And Obama is not going to be swiftboated.

As for your question:

"The crucial question to me is similar to the quesiton I have about Wright, and it goes to the issue of his judgment. I was 23. Obama is twice my age, and these associations are recent."

Um, you can't equate these two. You were in the thick of things and had to make a decision whether violence was the answer. I think you made the right decision. Obama wasn't "associating" with the WU bomber Bill Ayers. Remember, he would have been too young. He was "associating" with a fellow charity board and community member.

By the way, for full disclosure, I should admit that I am a former student of Bill Ayers and that I have been in his home. This is the type of professor that I want training future teachers. And I say this as a student who regularly and vociferously disagreed with him. As far as I know, my judgment is fine.


by batgirl71 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 02:41:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep (2.00 / 1)

that might be a good thing.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:14:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 4)

Let's not debate the association.

Of course not that would get in the way of a great "guilt by association" smear campaign.

This is the Bill Ayers that Obama "associated" with...

In the 1980s Ayers undertook graduate training in education and earned his doctorate in 1987. He has edited and written many books and articles on education theory, policy and practice

He was tapped by Mayor Richard M. Daley to shape Chicago's now nationally-renowned school reform program. He has also served on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago, a anti-poverty philanthropic foundation, since 1999.


by JoeCoaster on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:05:52 PM EST

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 4)

Whoa. People do all sorts of diffeent things in their life. good words or works cannot excuse his refusal to repudiate the WeatherUndergound and his commitment to bombs not words. His daddy by the way got him the job at the University. He sits on the board.


by linfar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:16:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (1.83 / 6)

Have you repudiated, denounced and rejected character assassination, Rovian tactics and smear by association?

No. So what a double standard. For all the purported sensitivity of your recollections, this is a republican hatchet job wrapped in nostalgia


by brit on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:22:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 3)

When Ayers runs for public office you can address these issues with him.

Bill Ayers (and family) are widely respected Chicago figures now. As Mayor Daley said...

"I don't condone what he did 40 years ago, but I remember that period well," the mayor said. "It was a difficult time, but those days are long over. I believe we have too many challenges in Chicago and our country to keep re-fighting 40-year-old battles."
- LATimes.


by JoeCoaster on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:31:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 2)

Gee, Lin Far, God forgives, why can't you???
You act like he's some kind of ax murderer.
And well your "concern" is noted, concern trolling is best left to the Repugs.
"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:39:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (1.33 / 3)

So is Hillary,"haunted by the cries of the ordinary and everyday people who have been killed by prejudice and by bombs all over this precious and vulnerable world". Or do the cries of innocent Iraqi's mean nothing? But you're O.K. with Hillary's vote right? Her vote that lead to the death of over 4000 American servicemen and millions of Iraqi's. But you're against violence, right???????????/ But Hillary's support of one of the most violent invasions in world history, that's O.K. right??????????????????????


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:09:35 PM EST

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 6)

I trust Hillary to bring the troops home asap. Obama will equivocate on it, the way he equivocates on Wright and Ayers and Rezko, and...


by linfar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:17:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 1)

I don't think either one of them will be able to do that..

After her statements regarding the Middle East during the debate, I actually give him more of a chance of pulling it off than I give her.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:24:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 2)

YOu may trust her, but the majority of Americans do not, as I am sure you are well aware of.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:41:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Just when I thought... (2.00 / 7)

Just when I thought all the straws had been clutched, and you come up with this.

Obama sat on the same charitable board as a former Weatherman.

Maybe he even once passed a member of Velvet Underground in the street?

It's getting very close to the end. People have scraped right through the barrel, and are breaking nails on the concrete beneath

No disrespect meant, but this is a long winded way of saying 'His mentors and associates speak volumes!' That didn't work before with Wright. Not going to work now with Ayers. Keep digging. You're just burying the credentials of your candidate


by brit on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:10:13 PM EST

Re: Just when I thought... (2.00 / 4)

brit, have you ever actually commented on the content of a diary itself? I am just curious.


by linfar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:18:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just when I thought... (2.00 / 1)

I've actually read it again, and it's a nice bit of recollection BUT...

Why are you writing this now? For all your high minded care about people being hurt by bombs, you turn this somehow into an attack on Obama?

That's so tendentious, it undermines any good faith the reader might have in the prose or recollection. And when you talk about guilt by association with those deaths, what about the 200,000 who died in Bosnia? I wish your sensitivity had been deployed there when Hillary used that genocide for her resume padding.

As I said above. For all the touchy feeling memories, this is a hatchet job posing as recollection. Sorry.


by brit on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:26:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just when I thought... (2.00 / 4)

brit, thank you for bothering to read this. It was not eacy to write. I lived through the Weather Underground era. We on the left became so deranged we started bombing other americans. This to me is seious. And Obama either doesn't get it or he doesn't care or he would acknowledge the association and reject it. Ayers is not some innocent guy now happily ensconced at a university. He still advocates bombing. How anyone after 9/11 can do that is beyond me. We all of us have to take a stand. Obama just can't have it both ways. And truly, it troubles me.  


by linfar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:32:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just when I thought... (2.00 / 1)

Hold on. Ayers advocates bombing? You mean by this

1) He's still a terrorist

or

2) He believes that violence is legitimate against oppressive tyranny

Because on 2) that's been the US's position for many years. It's what C-in-C's hold dear. It's Minutemen. It's Gettysburg. Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Dresden. Hanoi. Shock and Awe

Obama advocates bombing. So does Hillary. What point were you making here?

Frankly Linfar. You know exactly what you're doing. It's like a creative writing course at a liberal college, but with a right wing talking point tacked on the end. I see the method. It's like Universal, but starting out with tissues rather than cudgels. But the effect is the same. You're bashing the leading democratic candidate again and again. You're using the violence of smear and character assassination, but it's just as injust as other forms of violation and violence. You pretend to be sweet and innocent, but there's malice afoot I feel.


by brit on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 04:36:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just when I thought... (1.80 / 5)

lin far, have you ever used anything but right wing talking points to bash Obama?
Just asking?
"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:27:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just when I thought... (2.00 / 4)

If this diary is a rightwing talking point I will eat my hat. I have laid out an important part of my life. Each of us has to decide where we stand on bombing as a means of persuasion. Ayers is on one side. The idea that Obama will not reject it, frightens me about Obama.


by linfar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:33:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just when I thought... (1.66 / 3)

Would you like some A-1 sauce?  When will you be commencing said consumption?  Will you film it?  B/c there's no question about whether this is a right-wing hit piece.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 04:03:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just when I thought... (1.50 / 2)

Don't be scared darlin, their is nothing to fear but fear it self.
But boy how you do love to spread the fear.

Bon Apetite


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 04:33:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Rules (2.00 / 2)

You need to remember the "Rules".

Questions about Hillary are "Vetting".

Questions about Obama are "Rovian tactics".


by J Rae on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:36:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is McCarthyism (1.77 / 9)

in its purest sense.

This is the same diarist who compared Obama to George Wallace.

It represents the dissent of the Clinton supporters into tinfoil land.  


by fladem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:10:41 PM EST

personal story good, ReThug attack bad (1.66 / 6)

yes, the weather underground got it wrong. but as you noted, it was a violent time. some people in such times take up arms, others fight non-violently, others sit on the sidelines, and others work for the establishment that is killing literally a MILLION times more than the Weathermen did.

that is all aside from your bullshit personal attacks on Obama. BILL CLINTON PARDONED 2 MEMEBERS OF THIS GROUP YOU CLAIM TO HATE. what does that say about Hillary Clinton? Obama served on A Charity Board with Ayers, he didn't appoint him to the board. Clinton PARDONED Weathermen. so if your position is that the closest person to the Weathermen loses, then CLINTON loses.

stupid bullshit attacks that come stright from the ReThug playbook. shameful, as usual. good luck with McCain-Clinton 2008 campaign.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:13:17 PM EST

Re: personal story good, ReThug attack bad (1.83 / 6)

Clinton's  pardons came after they served their jail time. Ayers and Dohrn skated. Ayers is still thunbing his nose at you. The Weather Underground were home grown terrorists. Ayers launched Obama's senate campiagn for pete's sake.


by linfar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:20:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: personal story good, ReThug attack bad (2.00 / 1)

why are they terrorists?


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:23:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This comment should lead to your banning (1.75 / 4)

unless you can document it with evidence.

You are suggesting that Ayers was the driving force behind Obama's candidacy for the Senate.

Present evidence.  Or apologize for an outrageous comment.


by fladem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:29:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ayers and Alice Palmer (2.00 / 1)

To find out more about Obama's start in Illinois politics in 1996, search for Alice Palmer. She helped him get on the ballot, introduced him to people like Ayers.

Quickly Obama backstabbed Palmer and had her and ALL his opponents thrown off the ballot so he could run unopposed in that first election.


by 1950democrat on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:44:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ayers and Alice Palmer (2.00 / 2)

yes, how dare he bring up the fact that their petitions weren't in order.


"Don't let it end this way; tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa
by shef on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:47:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ayers and Alice Palmer (2.00 / 2)

Wow, a more dishonest portrayal of the facts could not be asked for.


by shalca on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:58:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Present evidence. Or apologize ... (none / 0)

Didn't you see Love Story, or see the ads?

"Being a ReThug for Clinton means never having to say you're sorry."


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:04:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: personal story good, ReThug attack bad (2.00 / 2)

Home grown terrorists you say,Well, then so were Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin et al.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:33:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: personal story good, ReThug attack bad (2.00 / 2)

Uh, lessee. yhou mean these guys built homemade boms with nails to be as assaultive as possible and then took them to non commissioned officers dances and exploded them. Hmmmmm


by linfar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 04:18:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: personal story good, ReThug attack bad (2.00 / 3)

I doubt very much that Ayers is thumbing his nose at me...  he doesn't even know me...


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:34:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: personal story good, ReThug attack bad (2.00 / 5)

WRONG. They hadn't even served HALF of their time.


Senator Obama will be formally nominated on August 28, 2008 - the 45th Anniversary of Dr. King's "I Have A Dream Speech."
by brimur on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:57:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: personal story good, ReThug attack bad (2.00 / 2)

agreed... if they had served their full term, they would not need a pardon.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 05:18:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: personal story good, ReThug attack bad (2.00 / 1)

One had served 16 years. Not sure about the other. So Clinton's bad for commuting someone after 16 years while Ayers skips it all and goes on to write about the joys of bombing government installations, etc. This is more of Obama attempting to shift blame. He just won't own his stuff. Reminds me of Bush. It is always the other guy's fault


by linfar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 05:25:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: personal story good, ReThug attack bad (2.00 / 1)

How in the HELL is Obama to blame for the actions of someone before he knew them?

And the politics of deflection work with everyone... including Clinton... well, both of them.  It's not their fault, it's someone elses...  This is true sometimes, but sometimes it isn't.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 05:29:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: personal story good, ReThug attack bad (2.00 / 1)

Wait, I missed something. Did Obama set off those bombs? Is he shifting the blame to Bill Ayers. In this case, IT IS THE OTHER GUY"S FAULT.

By the way, have you read Fugitive Days. It is much more complex and nuanced than you have represented Ayer's words. And its emotions about the bombings are much more conflicted. Not saying its right or that you have to "pardon" Ayers but, once again, this has absolutely nothing to do with Obama.

By the way, Ayers turned himself in and the government couldn't prosecute because they gathered much of their intelligence illegally. I suppose you think they should have thrown him in prison anyway. Sounds more like you would support Bush or McCain then Clinton or Obama.


by batgirl71 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 03:58:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: personal story good, ReThug attack bad (2.00 / 1)

so, let me see if I understand this, it's okay to associate with people terrorists if they've served time in jail, in fact, it's okay to commute these horrible people's sentences, but it isn't okay to be on the same board and get a small donation from one.

As for this "launched Obama's senate campaign" stuff. I'd like to see evidence of that.

If you weren't already set on smearing Obama, this kind of guilt-by-association crap wouldn't fly.

Is obama anti-american? Is he a terrorist? what is the point of all this? That he shouldn't ever have anything in common with bad people?


"Don't let it end this way; tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa
by shef on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:50:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

how very sexist of you (none / 0)

who pardoned them?  Is HE running for president?


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 04:16:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for the Personal Story (2.00 / 4)

Good diary.  i think what we have learned about Sen. Obama, for the better of worse, is that he cast a large net.  He seems to like characters, outside perspectives, even people who the rest of society may call nuts (be them liberal nuts or conservative nuts).  I happen to think this is a plus.  I remember my folks dinner parties growing up, and I guess this is a fact of our parties today, they would occasionally invite average folk - main-stream republicans and democrats - but the real popular, education, and interesting parties were when they invited friends who were in the Republic of Texas, or Anti-Death Penalty Clergy (in a prison town), or real conspiracy theorist types.  Yeah I thought these people are out there, at the time, but looking back you learn that you can come at the world from a lot of perspectives.  You learn empathy.  The dangers of group-think.  Today I try to surround myself with an eccentric crew.  People that I would have to renounce if I ever went out for Public Office.  But I would not be seeking a level of open-mindedness, compassion, and intellectual honesty if I simply surrounded myself with straight-laced folks.  I think that is what a lot of folks like about Sen. Obama, and what is also causing him trouble as of late.  It is, however, what makes for a good President.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:23:09 PM EST

Hollow. (1.57 / 7)

You are as bad as the rightwing nutjobs like Hannity who suggested the Ayers question to Stephanopoulos.

Here's a rundown on Obama's association with Ayers and the board they served on together:

The Woods Fund Board: Dastardly Communist Terrorists!

But, of course, don;t let facts get in the way of your vile spew. Say hello to Larry and susan for me.


by Bob Johnson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:23:34 PM EST

Heh. (2.00 / 3)

And Hillary's husband pardoned Weather Underground terrorists along with Puerto Rican FALN members, the latter at the request of the Puerto Rican Caucus in Congress and, some uncharitably assert, to help his wife get elected in New York.

That's slightly more, shall we say, involved than serving on a board with someone, one would think.

Coincidentally, the stereotypical Obama-bashing aside, this was a very enjoyable read. Fascinating life in interesting times.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:27:37 PM EST

Thanks (2.00 / 4)

There are so many "history repeating itself" aspects of this election it is useful to hear from original witnesses to history.


by ellend818 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:30:23 PM EST

Re: Thanks (2.00 / 5)

thanks Ellen. That is the way I see it. So I thought maybe all of this was worth dredging up.


by linfar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:34:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 6)

As usual, the diary has a well-written, personal component with an attack at the end designed to make the reader accept the linkage without reservation.  As interesting as the first half is, it isn't strictly relevant to board meetings  decades later that were intended to renew urban Chicago.


by rfahey22 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:31:29 PM EST

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 3)

I thought it was acceptd practice to lay out why you believe something or will vote one way or another. This is personal. Ayers resonates with me in a very deep and personal way. He is not a nice guy--I don't care how many boards he sits on, etc. the guy will not renounce bombing. Whoa!!!


by linfar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:36:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 4)

Your diaries typically build up/down one person (archetype A) and then, at the very end, compare them to Obama (archetype B) with little discussion as to the relevance of the connection or even why, in your mind, they are connected.  It's clever, but I don't think that it's altogether logical, because it forces the readers to make the connection you want them to make without any real justification - they agree with you about archetype A and then just go along with what you say about archetype B.  It's just a pattern I've noticed.

Here, archetype A is 1960's-70's Ayers (and a decades-older Ayers commenting about what he did as a younger man).  Somehow we're to assume that because Obama served as one of eight other members on a board seeking Chicago's renewal at the same time as an older Ayers, that somehow means he endorsed what Ayers did way back in the day.  Of course, you don't have any evidence that Obama supports what younger-Ayers did.

So, I suppose the other seven members of a board that convened long after Ayers' active days are also terrorist sympathizers?  Is all the work done while Ayers served on the board of the Woods Fund somehow tainted?  Do you find any of the work done at that time objectionable, or is this nothing more than the typical guilt-by-association diary, albeit more elegantly written than average?  


by rfahey22 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 04:29:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 2)

You're right.  You take this personally as I take personally the involvement of Mark Penn in Clinton's campaign.  His company was tasked with covering up and cleaning up the image of military dictators in Argentina in the 70s.  This group dissapeared 50,000 people.  So I hold Clinton's judgement suspect when she relies on this man's advice.  I don't know, did Mark Penn ever renounce working for dictators and murderers?

However, Mark Penn still has a happy little role to play with the Clinton campaign, and his 2.4 million to collect.  So it is all good, right?


by Why Not on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:06:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 4)

Axelrod is way dirty too. I am not defending Penn. Our politics are so dirty that they will never get clean. Obama's willingness to run on that idea that he can fix it, like the messiah, is beyond exploitive-- it is just lying. Hillary isn't making false promises. And I respect that.


by linfar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:14:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 2)

Axelrod may be dirty, I honestly don't know, but Mark Penn is as dirty as they come.  Furthermore, to give Clinton credit for essentially saying politics is so corrupt we shouldn't even try to fix it makes no sense to me.

Obama has a track record of transparency in government, Clinton does not.  If this were lying then candidates would not have to show where their donations are coming from online.  This is not exploitation, it is (to quote Clinton) "rolling up his sleeves" to try to eliminate the problem.

Obama might not be able to clean everything up, or he might only go so far, but this is much more than Clinton has, or would do.  If these were things Hillary desired, she would have at least tried to push it in the 90's.  The fact is that the Clintons were and are comfortable with the way the political system has worked until this point.  Obama aims to change this equation in favor of the people, this has both Republicans and DLC Democrats worried.

Lastly I do not consider him the messiah, and I don't think he is projecting that image.  He never claimed to be the messiah, just an intent to change the way things work.  I wish him the best in that Endeavour because, as you so aptly stated he is running on this idea.

Clinton is not.  She may not be lying about working to change the system (since she doesn't intend to change it), but neither is Obama (because he does).

So it sounds to me like you, too, are comfortable with the way politics has worked.  And this may be the reason this message doesn't resonate with you.  Or maybe your experiences in the 60s and 70s have made you cynical and unwilling to give someone else a chance to change things.  After all, if you were unable to do it, no one else will be able to right?

Me, well I just hope we can start living up to our ideals.

I think Obama is the only one left in this race to have a chance to do that.


by Why Not on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:43:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (none / 0)

I'm for Obama, but this is one of the best stated critiques of the man I've seen. My only answer is that by nominating Obama and putting him in the White House (McCain, in my opinion, is not a threat), we can find out once and for all if cynicism is justified.

Although I hope for better answers than you, I think we're ultimately asking the same questions: is Obama genuine, and can we fix the system with a reform-minded president and reform-minded Congress? If the answer to either of those questions is no, then there is no hope. If they can fake Obama, or if it is impossible to clean up Washington through the voting booth, then electoral politics is pretty much a waste of time--and it certainly cannot be relied upon to deal with any of the global disasters looming around the corner.

Obama has my support because I'd like to know the answers to those questions.

by leftneck on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 01:51:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wright is a patriot. and said NOTHING wrong. (2.00 / 1)

Ayers clearly believes the words of the declaration of independence more strongly than most.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:34:26 PM EST

Re: Wright is a patriot. and said NOTHING wrong. (2.00 / 2)

What section specifically are you thinking of? I don't remember it saying that if you disagree with someone go bomb their ass and then write a book and make money off of it.


by linfar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:15:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wright is a patriot. and said NOTHING wrong. (2.00 / 2)

Wow, what a gross misstatement! You don't have to exaggerate Ayers' motives to disagree and condemn his actions. "If you disagree with someone go bomb their ass" is wildly unfair to the time, situation, and motivations as well as Ayers own explanations.

You're right when you say that Ayers hasn't disavowed bombing as a tactic. But maybe you need to read closer under what circumstances he thinks it is okay to take up arms. Not saying you'll agree with him. In fact, most Americans won't. This is a question that many Americans haven't had to ask themselves, but I often think about under what circumstances I would be willing to pick up arms. After all, as previous posters have noted, it is what are founding fathers had to ask themselves as well as Abraham Lincoln.

From Fugitive Days, pp. 284-285:

"I can't quite imagine putting a bomb in a building today--all of that seems so distinctly a part of then. But I can't imagine entirely dismissing the possibility, either... Say the unjust are particularly powerful, as they so often are in our world, and enforcing a wide range of painful social relations, and say they make it clear that any serious opponent will be jailed or shot. They insist on only 'peaceful' protest, prescribed and entirely in-bounds, and they enforce that dictate with clubs and guns and rockets. They grant themselves a monopoly on power, an exclusive franchise on violence, and they use it. What then?"


by batgirl71 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 04:15:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 1)

Tit for tat....

THE DONOR #1
Norman Hsu, Hong Kong "apparel executive."

THE GREEN
Hsu bundled more than $850,000 for Hillary's presidential campaign and $260,000 for Clinton's Senate races.

THE SCANDAL
Hsu parlayed his charming, obsequious personality into a spot as one of the top twenty Democratic fund-raisers nationwide. Problem is, he turned out to be a convicted felon, on the lam since 1992 due to a grand theft conviction. Then, this December, Hsu was indicted for running a pyramid scheme that defrauded investors out of at least $20 million and that made $25,000 a year in fraudulent political donations.

THE DONORS #2
Marc Rich, fugitive American businessman; Denise Rich, songwriter and socialite.

THE GREEN
Denise Rich contributed $70,000 to Hillary's Senate campaign and $450,000 to the Clinton presidential library fund.

THE SCANDAL
Over seventeen years after Marc Rich fled to Switzerland to avoid charges of racketeering, illegal trading, and tax evasion (he owed $48 million), Bill Clinton pardoned Rich during his last moments in the White House. His ex-wife Denise's generous donations and Friend of Bill status gave the pardon a particularly rotten stench.

THE DONOR #3
Aaron Tonken, former Hollywood fund-raiser, current federal penitentiary inmate in California.

THE GREEN
In 2000 he hosted a fund-raiser that took in more than $1 million for Hillary Clinton's Senate campaign.

THE SCANDAL
Tonken originally drew interest from the FBI for failing to report some donations from the event to the FEC. Although he was never charged for election-law violations, in 2003 he pleaded guilty to stealing from charities, including, according to an ABC News report, the Betty Ford clinic. He is currently serving a five-year sentence for mail and wire fraud.

THE DONOR #4
Peter F. Paul, renaissance man, jack of all trades.

THE GREEN
He co-hosted the 2000 fund-raiser with Tonken.

THE SCANDAL
How did Paul underwrite the gala? According to The Washington Post, by improperly borrowing more than $4 million from Merrill Lynch. Shortly after that was discovered, Paul hopped a plane to Brazil and spent years waging a two-front war: fighting extradition and trying to sue Hillary for underreporting the value of the event. In 2003, Paul was extradited to the U.S., and Clinton agreed to pay a $35,000 fine to the Federal Election Commission.

THE DONOR #5
Yah Lin "Charlie" Trie, Taiwanese-Arkansan restaurateur-turned-fund-raiser.

THE GREEN
Trie funnelled more than $2.2 million, much of it from foreign corporate donors, to the DNC from 1994-1996 and helped pay $460,000 of the Clintons' legal bills between 1994-1997.

THE SCANDAL
Trie, who knew Clinton from his days as the owner of the Fu Lin restaurant in Little Rock, moved to Washington in 1994 and began donating to the Clintons and the DNC through various shady channels, including through "straw donors," typically poor legal immigrants who stand in for foreign businesspeople.


A useless "Community Organizer" from Pennsylvania as noted by Republicans, Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin
by hootie4170 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:35:53 PM EST

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Re: MY WEATHER UNDERGROUND (2.00 / 3)

I arrived in Manhattan in time for the March 7, 1970  townhouse explosion in Greenwich Village which killed 3 weather underground members who were preparing a bomb to be set off at a noncommissioned officers' dance at fort Dix, New Jersey. The bomb, a makeshift anti-personnel weapon  studded with roofing nails, exploded prematurely killing Theodore Gold, Diana Oughton, and Terry Robbins. Weather Underground members Kathy Boudin and Cathlyn Wilkerson, upstairs at the time of the blast, were helped by rescue workers and then disappeared before they could be questioned." That's pretty cool, Obama was 8 years old so um yeah.


by Socraticsilence on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:39:54 PM EST