Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls

There are two new polls out of Pennsylvania that were in the field yesterday, the first full day after the debate. And as you might expect, we're getting some mixed messages.

Zogby, which began its Pennsylvania daily tracking poll yesterday, showed Clinton gaining a net 3 points when the 17th, the day after the debate, was added to its 2-day rolling average.

CandidateApril 16-17April 15-16
Clinton4745
Obama4344

John Zogby doesn't attribute the movement to a post-debate bounce for Clinton though, but does see a disturbing trend for Obama in the fall if he is the nominee.

"No ground really gained or lost by either candidate after Wednesday's debate. The one day sample had Clinton leading by 4 points. She is solid with Catholics, whites, Hispanics, and older voters. Obama holds his strong support among African Americans, the young , and Very Liberals. What is very significant here is that when we ask these likely primary voters who they would vote for today in the general election, Clinton scores 75% to 9% against McCain, while Obama leads McCain 72% to 14%. The difference? Only 11% of Catholic Democrats and 12% of white Democrats choose McCain in the match against Clinton, while 22% of Catholic Democrats and 18% of white Democrats choose McCain against Obama."

Rasmussen Reports, on the other hand, released a poll taken entirely over the course of yesterday and finds a 6-point turnaround in Obama's direction in the aftermath of the debate.

CandidateApril 17April 14
Clinton4750
Obama4441

Rasmussen doesn't address whether the movement was in any impacted by the debate but this bit of analysis leads me to believe that there may be a slight inflation of Obama's numbers here and that in PA as we've seen elsewhere, we'll probably see undecideds and soft Obama supporters come home to Clinton in the end.

Obama's support appears to be a bit softer than Clinton's at this point in time. Six percent (6%) of Obama voters say there's a good chance they could change their mind before voting. Only 2% of Clinton supporters say the same.

Overall, with less than a week to go, 9% of Pennsylvania voters remain undecided, 3% say there's a good chance they will change their mind, and another 12% might change their mind. Among those who are certain how they will vote, Clinton leads 53% to 47%.

Zogby has definitely had some questionable results this cycle but I've found the statewide tracking polls to be interesting to the extent that they measure small shifts in real time, but it's only really helpful (if at all) once you have 3 to 4 days of results to go by.

Update [2008-4-18 13:46:14 by Todd Beeton]:And speaking of post-debate polls:

These results are based on interviewing conducted April 15-17, with Thursday night's interviewing the first conducted following the April 16 debate in Philadelphia. [...]

In Thursday night's interviewing, Clinton received a greater share of national Democratic support than Obama, the first time she has done so in an individual night's interviewing since April 3. That stronger showing for Clinton helped to snap Obama's streak of statistically significant leads in the three-day rolling averages Gallup reports each day. Until today, he had led Clinton by a statistically significant margin in each of the prior 11 Gallup releases.



Display:


Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (2.00 / 2)

His meltdown in the debate proved Clinton should be the nominee.

It is very obvious.


by gotalife on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:55:36 PM EST

Meltdown. HA! (2.00 / 1)

If that was Barack Obama "melting down," he's going to do just fine against the VRWC attack machine.  Stayed cool and calm (if mildly annoyed) the whole time.


by Capt America on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:16:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Meltdown. HA! (none / 0)

The Daily show ran a clip with his responses. Yes, I would call it a meltdown and a horrible performance.

I think the people in this poll agree:

"Over the last four days the Gallup tracking poll has charted Obama's lead declining from 11 to 8 to 7 to 3."


by gotalife on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:27:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hahaha, (none / 0)

you think that was a melt down?


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:33:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

Was that George's meltdown or Charles Gibson?


by howardpark on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:31:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

hmmm... neither george nor charlie is a candidate.

(a classic "shot down the messenger" tactic by obama  supporters.)

by the way, someone has to compile all the responses of obama to his so-called "gaffes". for example:

his reaction to the Wright controversy: ahh, just a crazy uncle...

his reaction to the bitter comment: ahh, just a mangled speech...

he trivializes everything...

possible responses when he becomes president:

economic problems: ahh, just temporary. i'll deliver a speech [i hope not a mangled speech...]


by pleaseno on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:58:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

talk about bitter (none / 0)

it's Hillary's supporters.

"Your Gal" blew the lead, the support, the money game, the message game, EVERYTHING.

You'll get over it.


SquareState.net - Colorado Politics
by pacified on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:51:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

This polling thing has become laughable to me. These polling services have become much like property appraisers in the mortgage meltdown. What ever the real estate agent wants the appraiser gives. They have become as useless as the debates.


by fillphil on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:56:23 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

True. But unlike the debates, the polls are at least fun to watch!!!


by Democratic Unity on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:49:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

Throw this outlier into the mix:
http://americanresearchgroup.com/

ARG Poll has Clinton ahead by 20 points.

Full disclosure: some folks have noted that ARG polling is notably more volatile than others.

As a Clinton supporter, my goal for her is an Ohio-like victory - "double digit" for the spin factor.  If she were to win PA by 15 to 20 points, which I consider extremely unlikely, I am on record saying that is the beginning of the end for Obama.  If she were to win PA by 5 or less, I believe that will be the beginning of hte end for her.


by bobbank on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:59:23 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

Bob,

Even if she wins by 24.9% in every contest from this point forward, she will be behind by 50 delegates.  By the way, she will not win every contest from here on out by 24.9%.  She will not be the nominee.


by zadura on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:04:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (2.00 / 2)

This is the problem with this scenario: a loss in PA by 15 - 20 points has always been expected (at least a double-digit loss). It will in no way signal the beginning of the end for Obama. She needs to win by 40% for that to happen, and then she needs to go on and win every remaining contest by 40%. That just isn't going to happen.

I think this is so unfair to her supporters for Hillary to do this. I think I understand why she is still in it--she's going to keep going until she is told or forced to stop, because what else is she going to do? It's a very personal thing for her, and very psychological and probably very much related to the history of being a powerful woman in a patriarchal society. But it's horrible to watch her put her own supporters through this. She has no reasonable chance to win this. None. Her only chance has been an Obama implosion. That's it. That's her chance. That's what she's been keeping you all in this for. So, even when she "wins" on Tuesday, what is it all going to be for? What will the momentary euphoria among her supporters lead to? What has all of this, what has transpired since TX and OH, really been for? Has it been worth it? This is so unfair to you guys. I feel like Clinton is taking advantage of her supporters by giving them false hope (hell, she has been since before TX and OH). I admire the heck out of HRC's supporters. They're loyal as hell. But at a certain point you have to look at what is going on and how poorly they are being treated by their own candidate. Moreover, how bad will this be for Hillary's career when it's all over: when her supporters realize she took them down this road without any hope? The whole thing is just so destructive.


by DrPolitics on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:53:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

I agree with you on Hillary's own psychological reasoning to some extent, but I don't think she's hurting her supporters.  She thinks she can win; they think she can win.  And really, with some miracle or a horribly divisive convention floor fight, she CAN win.  She just won't.  

But the frightening thing for me is that when it's all said and done, it won't look to her supporters like Hillary was just playing out the string.  Their narrative will be that the election was "stolen" by Obama because of Michigan and Florida.  Or that he won unfairly because of the black vote.  Or he had a dirty campaign.  Some (not most) Hillary supporters won't allow it to be that he just had a better campaign.


by ProgressiveDL on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:17:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

I am one of her supporter and I truly feel there is no way that I will vote for Obama. I feel he is an Anti-American Supporter, his association with the shady charaters is very concerning.
We are in very difficult times and we can not take are risk we can not afford that Obama may bring. His lie about not knowing his preacher felt the way he did, that he never heard this man is ver insulting to most Americans..Twenty Year realationship, his mentor, friend and inspirational leader and yet Obama says he never knew..This is an insult to the American People. Does Obama think we are that naive? He failed in the senate with all his non-commital votes, his true relationship with people that hate America is very concerning. His many lies that the meida let go by for at one time he was the new messiah. Now he will see how it feels to be asked questions and literly have to answr them truthfully! No I could not possibly take responsibility for nominating this man that will only bring our Country Despair! Please really think hard and read up on who these candidates are. McCain or Hillary will only bring us the change we need. Obama will only bring us sadness and despair! His associations with the wrong people, the people that hate and wants and has hurt America is down out right scary.. Obama will only bring us despair!
by VoteResponsibly08 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:39:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama up by five in Indiana in newest SUSA poll (none / 0)

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/poll_downs _centersurveyusa_ind.php


by descrates on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:13:00 PM EST

Re: Obama up by five in Indiana in newest SUSA pol (none / 0)

**crickets**


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:42:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama up by five in Indiana in newest SUSA pol (none / 0)

This does present a problem for Hillary Clinton. If the post-debate polls aren't going toward her in the states she needs to win (and by win, I mean 20+ point wins if she wants to get back in the race), what else is there?


Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!
by fwiffo3 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:59:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

ARG is crap.  Zogby is crap (and too often offers us false hope).  Rasmussen is good overall.  Still, this is all statistical noise.  We can't tell if a gain is due to simple variance within the MoE or methods of polling or...  

Overall trends are much more useful and they've generally shown a HRC win of more than 5, less than 10 and a half to a quarter of what it was when the PA campaign kicked off in full force.  Organization and turnout in different areas can change that but staring at multiple new polls a day... especially from unreliable firms like ARG, Zogby or PPP ... is counterproductive.


McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.
by PantsB on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:19:26 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (2.00 / 1)

I tend to agree. It still looks like this will be between 5 and 10 points. If undecided working class voters (and women) go to Hillary heavily like they did in Ohio, then she may break 10.

I think that the debate harmed Obama. His supporters/campaign have done a lovely job reframing it, but the fact remains that millions watched him give rather weak answers.

That being said - Obama's advertisements in Philly are GREAT. Hillary's 100% negative ads really have the potential to hurt her. Running on "bittergate" in a Democratic primary is not terribly bright - unless you're trying to woo superdelegates. But if you're trying to win primary votes in a CLOSED primary (mostly liberal "elitists" if you will), then it's not a bright strategy.


by Democratic Unity on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:48:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If Treading Water Was An Olympic Event (2.00 / 1)

Hillary would have 3 gold metals. But this "Fox News Democrat" strategy is really pretty creepy.
by bernardpliers on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:24:55 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

yesterday there were supposed to be two big pennsylvanian endorsements for obama. i missed who they were, could someone please advise? thanks.


by doberman pinche on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:25:56 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

Ha. I'm an Obama supporter but I'll be the first to say those endorsements were underwhelming (with all due respect to the State Senator who backed Obama):)


by Democratic Unity on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:45:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

ok, thanks very much.


by doberman pinche on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:52:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

I think there were a couple of newspaper endorsements: Pittsburg Post-Gazette and Philadelphia Daily News. Could that be what you're referring to?


by DPW on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:47:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

no, this was later in the day. there was supposed to be conference call in the late afternoon about it.


by doberman pinche on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:49:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

This will be interesting to watch. The Nunn-Boren Obama endorsement speaks volumes. Clinton was always going to win PA in double digits, but itdoesn't look like she will get the 65-35 break-down she needs to make any noticeable impact on Obama. The kitchen sink-toilet-rotorooter was not enough to make up for one of the most incompetently run, arrogant campaigns in recent election history. Clinton by 15 sounds right from my perch north of the Susquehanna.


by NYWoman on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:26:26 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

The poll says that about 6-10% of Hillary supporters will not vote for Obama.  That is consistent with a typical "Bradley Effect" numbers that have been seen in Appalachian areas throughout this primary...

But, there is something important to nore...  Considering how "Reagan Democrats" haven't voted for a democratic president since Carter, I'd wager that of the  6-10% that claim will only vote for Hillary in the general, at least 80%, if not 90% of those will defect to McCain at some point.

Reagan democrats are like that girl that flirts with you in high school, and loves your attention, but when you ask Reagan Democrats to the big dance, they tell you, "I only like you as a friend.  I'm going steady with John McCain.  He gave me his flag pin!  Aren't you happy for me?"  We've been chasing after them for 30 years, and they always dis' us in the end.  You'd think that we'd learn by now!

Maybe Obama can meet with the Pope and get some more mojo with Catholic voters!  I'm surprised Hillary hasn't, already!  Or will that be Monday?


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:31:37 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (2.00 / 2)

Here's the thing:

Hillary's working class supporters are mostly traditional working class liberals. They aren't Reagan Dems (working class moderates/cultural conservative economic populists). They're just not. This is a myth that's been spread by folks who haven't really looked at the data in these polls.

The truth is that Reagan Democrats FLED the Clintons in 1994 and backed the Republican takeover.


by Democratic Unity on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:45:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

I'd buy that analysis... I think you're right, and I haven't seen it put that way before...


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:58:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

The other myth that needs to be busted is that Obama doesn't attract working class support. Basically...Obama underperforms in the Democratic primary with working class whites. But if you count other working class voters (African Americans), it's a complete wash.


by Democratic Unity on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:34:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

I buy that too, though I'd have to see some numbers.  I think most of Hillary's supporters (80-85%) come to Obama in the end.  Will that be enough?  Not sure.


by ProgressiveDL on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:20:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

RE: Silver Linings (none / 0)

If polls were horses then Clinton would ride into the White House.  Unfortunately polls are just polls and the game will be decided on Tuesday.  Predictions are fun as long as everyone understands that the economy sucks and the occupation is fruitless so who ever wins the nomination has a tall task to help move our country in a new direction.  This post looks a lot like Jerome's (I wish I had a pony.  I wish I had a pony).  Please people keep your eyes on the prize.  Both candidates are capable of pummeling McCain.  In these sour economic times even Kucinich could win against this geezer Republican with his clueless gas tax cut.


by Gilpin Guy on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:32:02 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

I've said this 1000 times:

1. Voters are horrible at hypotheticals during a heated election.

2. Obama will have to work for these Democratic votes, but I trust him and his team.

I imagine we're going to see a really gracious speech by Obama in May (after Hillary drops out) lauding her for her tenacity and humbly imploring her supporters to give him a chance.


by Democratic Unity on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:43:20 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

I think 10 points is the victory line now, WSJ established that this morning...and it appears that the MSM is stuck there.  I could see the race going anywhere from a 5 point Obama loss to a 15 point Obama loss...so Really have no idea which side of 10 it will land on.

The debate did not bode well for Obama in polling yesterday, but yesterday the media (including ABC) ripped the debate.  I image Obama will get some sympathy points there, and the debate will be a non-factor.  

Clinton needs to switch to positive ads in the closing days.  Her own consultants told the NYT there was no evidence the negative campaign (Every major market TV ad right now is negative) is working.  It is, in my opinion, a strategy to keep down turnout - as negative ads usually are.  But, she risk a narrative change over the weekend toward Obama as victim if they stay so negative.  Her campaign ought to go positive for her campaign's sake.

Indiana, more and more, is appearing to be the race that good end it.  It seems the MSM has gathered around the idea.  Specifically John Harwood who tends to be rather withheld in his reporting... I think the question most people are wondering is if Clinton get a pump out of PA, and if so, how large?


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:45:27 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

She must be happy with her internal poll numbers...  There have been no new, last minute Obama attacks like she had in Ohio and Texas...


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:01:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

Usually from campaign experience I can tell where people stand, by how they act.  But, with PA I really have no idea.  Good Campaign Tactics would suggest here internal have her down, perhaps tied, because she is attacking.  But she seemingly is not down.  Obama, on the other hand, is attacking by saying he is being attacked - which seems to be getting traction by her rising negatives - The Clinton campaign must have some interest in continually attacking Obama, even though (based on the public polls) it is not working and may even be working to his advantage.  The only other option I can think of is their going for low-turnout by making the race seem nasty.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 05:03:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is this the same Zogby... (none / 0)

That had Obama winning California by 12 pts.?


by SaveElmer on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:06:17 PM EST

Re: Post-Debate Pennsylvania Polls (none / 0)

of course  this post has distorted Hillary's remarks.  it is true and not particularly controversial to point out the richie rich activists and college kids have two or three hours to spare and devote to the cult of Obama caucusing.  Hillary supporters on the other hand, waiteresses and waiters, factory workers, mothers with children, seniors, Latinos, not so much.  they're at work or doing the things they do when they're not at work.  I work three jobs, seven days a week.  I support Hillary with all my heart but there is no way I could have attended a caucus.  Thank goodness my state doesn't have 'em.  the caucuses have been inherently unfair to Hillary and her supporters and Obama supporters do act like brownshirts (check the comment threads anywhere) and do try to intimidate people by calling them racist and calling Hillary every name in the book.  so this post can pretend that Hillary is claiming increased turnout is bad, but that's not what she said.  Maybe you should take off your Obama listening device and interpret things fairly.


by joker on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:49:07 PM EST


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