Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down

Reading Jerome's post this afternoon, I must respectfully, though strongly, disagree with the sentiment he passes along from Big Tent Democrat that Obama supporters' "hatred of Bill and Hillary Clinton has become more important to them than Obama's chances of winning in November."

Listening to part of last night's debate and catching some of the highlights (or lowlights, depending on your point of view), I wouldn't use the words of a Daily Kos commenter Markos points to, namely that the commenter no longer considers Hillary Clinton  a Democrat as a result of her use of right wing driven attacks against Barack Obama.

What I would say, however, is this: Clinton is not beyond reproach. She isn't above criticism. The Clintons no doubt did a lot of good for the party, helping capitalize on voters' sentiments to secure a victory in the 1992 presidential election -- the Democrats' first general election win in 16 years. And although the party lost its 40-year majority in the House, its 34-of-40-year majority in the Senate, and much more lower down the ticket on their watch -- in short, in many ways the party shrunk and atrophied during this period -- the party was nearly able to retake the Congress and hold on to the White House when they left office at the end of the millennium. What's more, the Clinton campaign apparatus, once out of power this decade, helped build and fund major chunks of what is now the progressive establishment that was so long missing (with, for instance, Bill Clinton chief of staff John Podesta founding the Center for American Progress).

However, even as the Clinton's earned a deal of goodwill, they did not earn so much that they could subsequently do things that could detrimentally affect the party down the line. For instance, a few weeks ago I noted that key Clinton supporters -- many of the bundlers funding her campaign -- began threatening to cut of funding for the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. In response, grassroots supporters and big dollar contributers of Barack Obama pledged to step up on behalf of the committee tasked with ensuring that there is a Democratic majority in the U.S. House of Representatives during the 111th Congress. Indeed, the DCCC pulled in more than $10 million in March, a significant portion of which came from the fact that the committee more than tripled its grassroots fundraising from the first quarter of 2007 to the first quarter of 2008.

But it goes beyond that as well. No one faults Clinton for running a strenuous campaign for the nomination. However, there are lines in politics. And when a race gets to the point where one candidate is much more likely to secure the nomination than the other (I'm talking greater than 3:1), the candidate less likely to win the nomination must begin to seriously think about the type of campaign that he or she is willing to wage and, moreover, if that campaign will hurt the party in the long run.

There is no question that if Obama is the nominee, the Republicans will throw everything, including the kitchen sink at him -- just as they would not hesitate to mercilessly attack Clinton. Having some of these attacks played out during the primary campaign may limit their subsequent impact, particularly if the candidate being attacked is able to successfully push back.

Nevertheless, as I said before, there is a line. That line is crossed when the attacks are no longer simply mentions of the very real fact that the Democratic nominee is going to be hit by the Republicans, but go beyond that to validations of the Republican attacks. For instance, when Bill Clinton goes out and concedes the issue of national security to John McCain and tacitly attacks Obama on the same issue -- in a way that could be subsequently used in a general election, regardless of whether Obama or Hillary Clinton is the Democratic nominee -- that's not building up the party, it's tearing it down. When Hillary Clinton runs an overwhelmingly negative campaign against Obama in a way that hurts her standing with the American people at least as much as it does his (her favorable/unfavorable spread is now 44 percent/54 percent, according to Washington Post/ABC News polling, down from 58 percent/40 percent just three months ago), that doesn't build up the party, it tears it down. And when Clinton goes down in the gutter for the first 45 minutes of what was likely the final Democratic debate, that doesn't build up the party, it tears it down.

So I would not question whether or not Hillary Clinton is a Democrat. But at the same time, I wouldn't by any means agree with the proposition that Obama supporters care more about their hatred of the Clintons than they do about electing Obama in November. Hoping for a unified party, one in which the part of the party leadership does not try to cut down another part of the party leadership to the detriment of the party as a whole, is not an ignoble goal.



Display:


Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Very nice diary. Thanks.


by Zoey on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:22:23 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Agreed... that was a good read...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:24:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 6)

I think it tears down the Party to run a candidate who has no qualifications in national security, has little record as a legislator, is unknown to the voters, has numerous noxious long term associations with people who will turn off a majority of American voters, and cannot counterbalance the toxicity of those associations with any qualifications and a relationship of trust with voters.

To blame Clinton for pointing out the very real weaknesses in this candidate is one sided at best. He is an extremely weak candidate who's run for the nomination is premature, and it is his responsibility for deciding to put the party through this. He could only win by destroying Clinton, and it has partially worked.

His campaign playing the race card and accusing the Clintons and their supporters of the radioactive charge of racism (and continuing to accuse working class voters of racism for not voting for him) is the most divisive and destructive campaign tactic I can think of.

I believe when the history of this campaign is written about the demise of the Democratic Party chances in this election it will be revealed how damaging Obama's tactics have been.


by 07rescue on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:39:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

If all of what you said is true, why is he able to beat Clinton? And what does that say about whether SHE should have run?


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:42:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 3)

I agree... the millions of people who voted for either of them likely do not view them as "weak"...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:55:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course, they will flame me for saying this.. (1.00 / 3)

but these are the tactics of fascism..

Our generation doesn't know much about it, but its always been out there, its a very old form of government that tries to palm itself off as revolutionary, but basically its reactionary, because its main interest is preserving the status quo in the face of pressures that threaten it.

Thats Obama's big lie... IMO.

How stupid we are..


public option=not affordable for middle. It cant cover all affordably, google adverse selection for why
by architek on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

90% of the black vote


by WAREHOUSE553 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:46:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

That's not true. She is enormously unpopular with a lot of people and always has been. She should have expected a backlash and an uphill battle to win people over. Because she ignored that problem, she will ultimately lose.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:57:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why? (2.00 / 1)

Why is Hillary Clinton 'unpopular' ?

I just don't understand that - what people have brought up as reasons to hate her (!!!) just doesn't add up for me.  

My reasons for supporting her are basic, we are
facing changes that threaten the stability that we all grew up with and the philosophy of the right seems willing, glad even, to just steal our country out from under us (although they would say that they owned it all along.. I suppose..)

There doesn't seem like there is that much room here for many of us.. and many of Obama's supporters are just as threatened. So why do they gravitate to this man whose platform is really not one of change, except in a superficial way? And then try to put down the people who actually DO care about all of us?


public option=not affordable for middle. It cant cover all affordably, google adverse selection for why
by architek on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:30:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (none / 0)

She's unpopular because she does things like completely ignore the fact that she's unpopular and run for President anyway. Then completely forget about trying to win people over and just act like she's got it locked up.

The primary thing Obama does that she doesn't do is address things directly and openly. Obama strikes at the heart of a controversy and doesn't hold back or speak in platitudes. And if Hillary did that too, everyone in the country would be just as nuts about her as you are. But since she doesn't, it comes across as dishonest and constant spin. And she's not that great at spinning.

A big problem is that she's running Bill Clinton's campaign style without having his charisma. She should have started from scratch.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (none / 0)

"She's unpopular because she does things like completely ignore the fact that she's unpopular and run for President anyway." - You just said she's unpopular because she's unpopular. That's an attitude I'm hearing to much of these days: if we keep saying it, it must be true!
by Apostle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:24:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (none / 0)

No, not that, I'm saying she's unpopular because she does not seem to care whether people trust her. Perhaps that is the best strategy in real life, but when you're running for office, you have to make people understand you are willing to listen to them, and when they say they don't trust you, you have to understand why and try to make them trust you by being honest and dropping the bs (or at least making people think you have dropped it).

Republicans have spent 16 years building an image of Hillary in people's minds. She needed to change that image and redefine it. But the kind of campaign she ran was not built on reintroducing people to Hillary, it was built to run on the image she had. It was ultimately a failing strategy, because while she had a formidable base, she thought that was enough. And ignoring so many people, she wound up falling behind early and never caught up.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:06:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

So who are you voting for in the fall?


Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!
by fwiffo3 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:43:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree (1.66 / 6)

Obama's tactics of calling "racism" against someone who has worked for Democrats and therefore civil rights for many years has been very destructive to the Democratic party.

I have no hopes of the Democrats winning this upcoming election.  I've given up...partly because I know how passionate I feel about the terrible tactics of Obama's "team"...so I know that others feel as passionate...what hope is there of coming together?  absolutely none.


by SoCalVet on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:45:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree (none / 0)

Don't let the door hit you on the way out...


by Rockville Liberal on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:50:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree (2.00 / 2)

Te calls of sexism against anyone who has opposed Hilary would have the same effect...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:23:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree (2.00 / 2)

Like Clinton calling sexism (the ol'e boys club, I don't remember many black guys in that group BTW) when she does poorly?

Thanks for proving the diarists point.


by IowaMike on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:24:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

Agreed. "Democratic nominee is going to be hit by the Republicans, but go beyond that to validations of the Republican attacks. For instance...

when Obama attacks Hillary for her lack of honesty, as Bradley did to Gore, which was then THE Repub talking point in the GE

when Obama calls her Annie Oakley, rendering her gun  control stance subject to ridicule, as Repubs will undoubtedly do

when Obama reminds us of her baking cookies, which raises her lack of "traditional values" , which the Repubs will also pick up on.

You're absolutely right, Singer.  You've just got the wrong candidate.


by desert dawg on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:03:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

YEAH!

Its not like Republicans have ever attacked a Democratic candidate for being a liberal elitist.  Hillary should not be criticized for attacking Obama for that.

He's got completely the wrong candidate.

</sarcasm>


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:17:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Her honesty, like her finally admitting that she said something that she knew was not true last night in the debate. She hit herself there.


by IowaMike on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:25:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Do you honestly believe that, if Obama gets the nomination, we will not see, not only the 3am ad pretty much verbatim with MCCain at the end rather than Hillary, but Hillary Clinton herself talking about the CIC threshold and how she and McCain have crossed it but Obama has not verbatim as well in Republican advertisements this year...?


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:26:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 3)

No qualifications in national security?  Little legislative record?  Unknown?  Irrational hatred by the other party?

Oh...you mean like some guy named Clinton in 1992?  Man, thank goodness we didn't nominate him, I bet he wouldn't have had a chance to ever win.  And if he somehow did, he would have been a terrible president.  Whew...dodged a bullet there.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:15:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Bill Clinton had no legislative record, but a 12-year executive record. Bill Clinton had 12 years as governor, 2 years as attorney general, and got elected statewide 6 times.

This year we'll see the first US senator elected president since Kennedy (8 years US senator, 6 years US congressman, 5 statewide elections).

We'll either have Obama (4 years US senator, 8 years state senator), Clinton (8 years US senator), or McCain (22 years US senator, 4 years US congressman).

For however it counts as political experience, Clinton also has 8 years as US 1st lady & 12 years as state 1st lady.


by anIndependent on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 05:30:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I can't believe that we've come to this point.  After months of Obama's people bashing the Clintons, Hillary's unfavorables are way up.  The more we learn about Obama, the more his unfavorables go up.  Now we're stuck with two candidates, neither of whom can win.  

Kudos to my party.  We've totally blown it again.  Obama will win the nomination and lose the election in a spectacular fashion.  His supporters will scream racism, and generally go nuts, doing even more damage to our party.  

We're screwed.  


by SueBee on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:20:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Sounds just like Bill Clinton in the 90's.

But Obama has amazing legislation successes.

http://obamarecord.blogspot.com


by Kiku on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:12:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I give up! (1.00 / 4)

If HRC is not the candidate, it's all yours.  And, although I suspect that BO will lose the GE, if he wins, he's all yours.

And then in 4 years we can all come back together to reclaim the country with experience and intelligence and have this "great change" behind us.  

It will not happen.  But, it's all yours.

Good bye.


by CoyoteCreek on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:58:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I give up! (2.00 / 2)

I hate to be the harbinger, but if Hillary doesn't win now, she isn't going to win in 2012, when she's 4 years older and the 1990s are that much further in the past.  I suspect she knows this and that's why she continues to fight so hard.  I can't blame her for that.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:17:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I give up! (2.00 / 3)

If she can't beat an inexperienced senator from Illinois, how can she beat a more experienced than her war hero?

She has run a lousy campaign.

I will work my butt off for whomever wins. I don't believe in waiting for tomorrow, I believe in going now. Even if that means I lose my guy (Edwards).


by IowaMike on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:29:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I give up! (none / 0)

This is THE salient point.

If she's so spectacularly amazing, possessing such awe-inspiring intellect, so conversant in the important issues of the day, has her finger so on the pulse of rank-and-file blue collar Americans--

--why is she losing so many states, why is she behind in the popular vote, why is she facing such a significant pledged delegate deficit?

PLEASE explain this unprecedented phenomenon to me, that the candidate who lost should have won because they were superior.

In elections, as we all know, Votes > ALL.

(FL in 2000 notwithstanding...)


by Ray in AK on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:18:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I give up! (none / 0)

You're right you know. If she doesn't beat Obama, she can't beat McCain.
by Apostle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:27:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I give up! (none / 0)

If HRC does not get the nomination, then it's all  yours.  And your responsibility.

I do not believe that BO will win the GE.  But if he doesn, I hope that all of your dreams come true. I believe that, four years from now, the Democratic Party will be faced with re-building itself, again.

I wish you luck.

It will not be a pretty picture.

Good-bye.  My heart is breaking for this country.


by CoyoteCreek on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:08:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I give up! (2.00 / 2)

I don't understand here...  you are leaving of your own volition you say if Clinton loses the primary...  but then you say your heart is breaking...?

Who is it that is breaking your heart but you...?  This is your decision.  I would like party unity but realize that is not my call... everyone makes their own decisions in this world.  If you opt out of the election or the party because Hillary lost, that is your decision, but I disagree with your idea that it is somehow on someone else.  You own your decisions.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:43:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Crossing the Line (none / 0)

Who crossed the line?
Check here.

by gaf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:28:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Condemn Markos's comments or say nothing (2.00 / 1)

That is what you should have done...how nice of you to agree that Hillary Clinton is a Democrat.

But you are wrong....

Barack Obama has run a  relentlessly negative campaign against her since the fall. He falsely says something ok at a debate and then his campaign sends out lying emails filled with stilettos.  Every day he accuses her of lying.

Tearing the party apart is something that can now be laid on the door of rash,vicious bloggers and those who are so blinded that they can not see what's on front of them.

Obama has said nice things during this campaign about McCain...is he tearing the party down?  Of course not you think...he's above reproach.

you think you are being graciousness....Graciousness like this only makes those to whom you are addressing this even angrier.


by debcoop on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:34:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Condemn Markos's comments or say nothing (none / 0)

When has he said nice things about McCain...?


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:44:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

It's Armando who made the comment cited by Jerome?  Actually, that explains things.


by rfahey22 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:23:55 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Jerome cited Armando citing Kos, citing a commentator is what I think happened.

You know, I was about to relate a personal story about the only Armando I knew, the husband of my aunt who has since passed on but I'm sure it would get me banned so let's just move on!

Also, thanks Jonathan, you are the reason I continue to put myself through the pain of going to MyDD's hysterics.


by MNPundit on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:41:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My dear friend just hypocrisy (1.80 / 10)

When Obama Supporters were calling Bill Racist, when Obama was
calling Clinton what sort of campaign Obama running?  You only get the treatment that you mete out to others. Now, please stop whining. Why is it that Clinton has to think about party unity
and not Obama? Sounds like double standards.
by ann0nymous on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:25:25 PM EST

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (none / 0)

Obama never called anyone a racist (though I know I did) nor did he ever say certain states or voting groups were unimportant.  


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:29:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (2.00 / 2)

Do you think we are stupid?


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:41:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (1.00 / 1)

No, the question is do you think we are stupid? I'm talking about black people. For the last 40 years the democrats apparently have.

NO MORE.


by regina1983 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:43:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

OMG, here we go again: (2.00 / 3)

If you don't support Obama, you are against "black people"?

Jeebus Christo.  

This is what is destroying the Democratic Party.


by SoCalVet on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:47:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG, here we go again: (none / 0)

Actually, I put it about in line with the quote "angry women" end quote... substitute those words n that line and you get the same result.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:56:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (1.00 / 1)

I think a more appropriate question is do you think us black people are stupid


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:14:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (none / 0)

Please provide evidence that Obama HIMSELF called or insinuated that Hillary was a racist--not a campaign staffer or a surrogate.  I can point to many instances where Hillary has insinuated HERSELF that Obama and his supporters were sexist.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:23:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (2.00 / 2)

Ok, his "campaign" did. And he stood by and said nothing until confronted by his campaign memo on national television. Even after that, he went before southern AA crowds and told them the Clintons were trying to hoodwink and bamboozle them and were doing the okie doke.

So it is a distinction without a difference. He conspired to call them racists. How is that?


by ineedalife on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:04:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (none / 0)

the memo said they were racist?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:14:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (1.66 / 3)

oh yeah....never said voters were unimportant

except when squelching Michigan and Florida revotes....yeah THOSE unimportant voters.....


by sas on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:04:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (none / 0)

what a powerful man he must be


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:15:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (none / 0)

They must have strong juju!


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:46:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (2.00 / 1)

It wasn't magic nor was it simple... nor was it Obama...

This decision was made between the DNC and the states...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:48:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (2.00 / 3)

Or it's just that you know they're Obama hit pieces that ignore every piece of evidence.


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:41:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (2.00 / 1)

I know, how dare he unilaterally force those states to challenge the Democratic Party rules to see if they could get away with going first?  I mean, honestly.  The nerve of him.

Oh...wait...he wasn't involved in that decision?  Oh, my bad.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:20:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (none / 0)

Wow...how does Hillary get by without a lawyer?  Man, that's such an unfair advantage to be able to hire a lawyer.  

Oh wait...she has a whole team of them too?  Huh...well, there goes that argument.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:16:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (2.00 / 1)

An "attack dog lawyer" is now to blame?  Hilarious.  I'm in litigation, I write memos, and states do not cower in fear of me.  I wish I had those supernatural powers - it would be quite lucrative.


by rfahey22 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:08:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (2.00 / 2)

I love the mystic mind-powers argument. Obama magically caused Florida and Michigan to hold their votes at a time when they weren't allowed to be Democratic party rules? He caused all the candidates to pledge not to participate? Put the words in Clinton's mouth that the results would not count? Caused her to insist for six weeks that revotes weren't acceptable because results from undemocratic elections that fail to meet international standards should be counted? Magically caused the Republicans in Michigan to block a revote?

Or are you going to pull out the amazing SuperLawyer, who's more powerful than state governments, legislatures, or anything else, and has the magic power to block revotes?

Try to be at least mildly honest for a moment. Given the choice between 1) Michigan Republicans, who made it clear they didn't want a revote, wanted to throw a monkey-wrench into the Democratic party, and used their power to block a revote and do just that, smearing Obama in the process, or 2) Amazing SuperLawyer who's got more authority in Michigan than the legislature, which really makes more sense?

There are so, so many people to blame for the mess in Michigan and Florida that you've got to go way, way down the list, and pass Clinton along the way, to get to Obama And His Amazing SuperLawyer.


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:51:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (none / 0)

Name once when Obama called the Clintons racist.  Once.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:19:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (none / 0)

Give me a freaking break.  It was Axlerod's rovian plan all along and only a naive voter couldn't get it.  "Hit them in their strong points' is Karl Roves MAIN strategy.
Bill and Hillary Clinton were respected and embraced in the African American community.  And Axlerod knew that in order to beat Hillary he had to destroy her credibility with that community.  The Obama campaing has been race baiting to achieve that from day 1.  Everything and anything anyone in the Clinton campaign says or does is labeled racist.  Axlerod succeeded and if that makes Obama folks proud, that is sad.  One only had to read and know or have lived history to KNOW that despite their flaws the one thing the Clintons are not is racist.
by Jjc2008 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:15:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (2.00 / 1)

and did Obama call Clinton a racist?  Did any Obama Surrogates call Clinton a racist?  There are angry spiteful insulting cheerleaders on both sides, but that's a reflection of their own shortcomings, not the qualities of the person they support.

The Clintons are doing things to "poison the well".  Them.  Themselves.  Not supporters or surrogates.


by DawnG on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:38:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thank you (none / 0)

well said


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:26:38 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (1.60 / 5)

Obama is not up 3:1

If Florida and Michigan count he isn't even up.

Why can't we follow the rules rather than trying to change them midstream to help Obama?


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:26:44 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

3 to 1 odds...


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:29:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 4)

3:1 odds fed to us from MSNBC?

3:1 odds fed to us by Dean?

What matters is who the super's favor.

Thats not a statistical thing.

If they all love Hillary OR Florida and Michigan count as cast then its 100% for her

If enough love Obama AND he keeps Florida and Michigan off the record than its 100% for him

There is no 3 to 1 here.

Just propaganda.


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:43:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (1.00 / 4)

AND DO THE MATH!!!!

The numbers don't lie. What is wrong with you. Ignore all of the bullshit and do the damn math.

Hell, if you are too lazy to get a piece of paper and a pencil you can go online and google delegate count.  It is literally impossible for her to become the nominee.


by regina1983 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:45:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (2.00 / 1)

You are wrong there little lotus blossom.....


by sas on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:06:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Calm down (2.00 / 2)

If it is as you say, then let  the process run its course. But deep down you know it isn't.

If the schedule had been different and the states left were the eleven Obama ran in Feb., he would be trailing and the chorus would be calling for him to do the math and get out. I say do all the elections and see where we are then. What is 6-7 weeks?


by ineedalife on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:10:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (2.00 / 3)

I did the math, and Obama can't win w/o superdelegates!  he needs to drop out!  or don't you know that the leader in pledged delegates isn't the automatic nominee?  which is why we have superdelegates in the first place!


by BlueDoggyDogg on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:22:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (none / 0)

he needs to drop out? Have you seen the super delegate count? Have you noticed all the supers he is getting and the lack fo ones she is getting.


by pennypacker on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:50:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (2.00 / 1)

is his delegate count 2025?  No?  ok then.  this game ain't over yet.


by BlueDoggyDogg on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:59:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (none / 0)

It's not "literally" impossible, just realistically impossible.  It's like a baseball team down 8 games with 10 to go.  It's not mathematically impossible, but damn close.  To give some perspective, the Mets lost a 7 game lead with 17 games left and that's considered one of the worst collapses in baseball history.  Hillary has to keep fighting because there is no way for her to save face by leaving after a win, but I suspect she knows things don't look good for her.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:22:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (none / 0)

Your analogy undermines your own point.

If the Mets managed to lose their way out of the playoffs, what makes you think Obama can't do the same?


by LakersFan on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:31:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (2.00 / 1)

He could, that's why I said it was not mathematically impossible.  But the odds of her getting either 60%+ of pledged delegates in every race or 75%+ superdelegates is pretty unlikely.  I'm not calling for her to drop out at all, but I would like some Clinton supporters to admit they are hoping for a floor fight at the convention.  Realistically, there isn't another option.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:18:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (none / 0)

I've heard plenty of Clinton supporters say they want a floor fight at the convention.


by LakersFan on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:22:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I don't think you understand odd...

or math...
or "this vote doesn't count"...

or logic...

or politics...

PS:  If they "all love Hillary" they'd have endorsed her when she was inevitable like all her other superdelegate endorsements.


by bawbie on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:49:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I work in a job that actually requires me to know how to do calculus...

Michigan and Florida give Hillary a net 167 delegate gain if we follow the rules as they exist.  No votes no delegates...

I didn't get any delegates in Michigan either but I am not bitter...Why does Obama think he would get special rule changes?  Does he know someone at the DNC who will throw the election for him?  Oh thats right he does...
=)


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:00:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

167 delegate gain!!! please provide your math.

she only nets 38 from FL, you are saying she gets 129 delegates from MI!? seriously?

yes please show your math.


Dream for tomorrow but fight for it today.
by TruthMatters on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:04:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Of course DTaylor won't show his math.  No one who makes those assertions ever shows the math, because the math would disprove their assertion. They somehow believe that people will be stupid enough to take these wild assertions at face value.

Just ignore any post that does not document how the writer got to the number.


by Onward Virginia Democrats on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:12:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

He's essentially a liar or incompetent or too lazy to look them up.

With Michigan counted as is (a ridiculous notion), and the "uncommitteds" going to Obama, Hillary gets 73 to his 55, for a net gain of 18.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_De mocratic_primary%2C_2008

With Florida counted as is (not as ridiculous), she gets 105 to his 67, for a net gain of 38.  38+18=net gain of 56, which would then put her behind him in pledged delegates by "only" 108.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Dem ocratic_primary%2C_2008

Since we're being ridiculous, let's be really crazy.  Let's pretend none of those "uncommited" votes should count at all.  So Hillary gets a net gain there of 73, plus the 38 in Florida, so she MUST be winning by now, right?  Oh...no?  She's still behind by 53!  So, with the most radically ludicrously pro-Clinton outcome, she is still behind by almost as much as Georgia's total available pledged delegates.

I mean, really.  Stop saying Michigan and Florida will somehow catch Hillary up, because they won't and they can't.  Sorry, fail.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:37:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Why would the uncommitted go to Obama?

He wasn't on the ballot.


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:59:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I thought you were against "disenfranchising voters"?  Unless you think that zero percent of people in Michigan would vote for him.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:19:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

He didn't get any votes.  Thats not my fault.

Sure you could argue that he could have got some votes....

But he could have had a revote...

But in both cases he chose not to.

I could have won michigan but I didn't want to put my name on the ballot and steal anyone's thunder.  Where are my delegates?


by DTaylor on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:51:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

The Democratic Party wanted everyone off the ballot.  Hillary, for whatever reason, didn't do that.  And stop saying he blocked a revote.  Hillary's plan included it being funded by 10 of her friends.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/el ection2008/2008-03-19-michigan_N.htm

I wouldn't take that deal either, if I were him.

But regardless, he didn't block anything.  The legislature decided not to do a re-vote.  And last I checked, Obama was not a state legislator in Michigan.  Ergo, no vote blocking by him.

Good try though.  Keep trying.  I am having less and less sympathy for the dying embers of Hillary's campaign.


by ProgressiveDL on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:59:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

I did the math recently, and came up with a 193 gain for Clinton, and a 72 gain for Obama, for a net of 121.

Now, there are also 55 uncommitted, and I don't know how MI selects those, but my guess is that a slate of uncommitted is voted on, by those saying they are uncommitted, so it probably winds up being split between them 23-22 or so, but that's just a guess at how the process plays out-- this weekend iirc.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No votes, no delegates. (2.00 / 1)

There were no votes in any DNC recognized primaries in those states.  Therefore no delegates are to be allotted.  That's the rules as they stand.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:25:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No votes, no delegates. (none / 0)

Those are the rules if they stand.

If not Hillary +37 Florida +127 Michigan


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:00:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No votes, no delegates. (none / 0)

That's not necessarily true.  If the rules get changed, the genie's out of the bottle and there is no way we can predict what will happen for sure.

I say we don't change the rules in the middle of the game.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

What? The HRC campaign gives themselves a 1 in 10 chance of winning.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:15:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Intrade gives Hill an 18% chance, which is significantly below 3:1.  In fact, almost half that, and this is a high water mark.  Two weeks ago she was at 14%.  

She has no chance.


by zadura on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:43:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Well land sakes! Why do we even waste money on primaries at all, if Intrade can just tell us who our candidate is.


Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are. - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
by anna belle on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:25:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Intrade is a prediction market estimator based on people who are willing to part with their money to bet certain ways on politics and other issues of the day.  If you think its too low or too high, I am willing to bet you personally on the same odds. Deal?


by zadura on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:20:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (1.00 / 0)

Sorry, say that again... was it no chance or 18% chance?
by Apostle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:33:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I will open a Paypal account and put in $800.  You put in $200.  If Hillary wins, you get the pot.  If Obama wins, I get the pot.  Deal?


by zadura on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:18:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Since when do oddsmakers determine the outcome of an election (or even a horserace for that matter)?


by LakersFan on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:28:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

So, who are you voting for in the fall?


Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!
by fwiffo3 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:30:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I wouldn't hold your breath for an answer...  I asked the same question and was told I was being a bully...

That said, whatever happens with FL and MI, thy should have exactly ZERO effect on the process...  ZERO.  That was the penalty they drew for doing what they did.... Not the exact penalty, mind you, but not seating the delegates is just not an option...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:35:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

If Florida and Michigan count he isn't even up.

No matter how many times you say that, it doesn't make it any more true.

You need a remedial math (or logic) course.


by bawbie on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:30:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

He got no votes in Michigan. 0 delegates for him as cast.

She gains 167 delegates and would be up 21 presently

I know how to do math, maybe you should work on geography there are 50 states in the USA


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:44:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

167?

Wow.  You really don't know math.  How the fuck do you get to that number?  You MUST have given Hillary every delegate in MI, when in fact 55 were voted for as Uncommitted, so even in your freaking fantasy world, you can't count those.

But anyway, the vote in Michigan doesn't count, it was known not to count at the time and it will not ever count.


by bawbie on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:58:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

37+127=164 my bad its 164


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:02:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Uncommitted isn't a candidate name.

Hillary and Kuchinich split the delegates.


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:04:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

... Then how did I vote for "Uncommitted" in the Michigan primary? And why did the MDP allocate 55 delegates to Uncommitted?

You said in another comment that (gasp) you have a job that requires you to do calculus! Well, I hate to say it, but as a math major, I'm not that impressed. Calculus (A) ain't that hard and (B) is definitely not required for determining numbers of delegates. This is mostly basic arithmetic.

Read this, please. It's the Michigan Democratic Party Delegate Selection Plan, and in it, you'll see how it's possible for Michigan to allocate 55 delegates to Uncommitted. Should they be seated as is, those 55 would be free to vote for whomever they wanted. Chances are, some would vote for Clinton, but I'd guess that most would vote for Obama.

That's if they were seated as is. They won't be. When the last primary is over, Obama will have the lead in the pledged delegate count, which will let him stack the Credentials Committee with his people. The Credentials Committee will force a compromise that seats Michigan and Florida, but will preserve the nomination for Obama. That's how I see it playing out.


Walberg Watch - Following Radical Conservative Rep. Tim Walberg in MI-07
by Fitzy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:35:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Maybe you should consult recent history...  neither race is supposed to count...  


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:58:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Yeah. Election monitors would point and laugh at you if you suggested that was fair.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:16:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

I believe the rules that everyone agreed to excluded those states.  So the only people trying to change them after the fact would in fact be Hillary and her supporters.  I support seating the delegates, but the fact is Hillary agreed to the rules until she lost Iowa.  Why can't you admit that?


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:22:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I believe the rules that everyone agreed to excluded those states.  So the only people trying to change them after the fact would in fact be Hillary and her supporters.  I support seating the delegates, but the fact is Hillary agreed to the rules until she lost Iowa.  Why can't you admit that?


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:22:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Hillary's campaign itself said she had no more than a 10% chance of winning.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:29:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

thank you..
What MyDD offers is individual insight.
This is not a lockstep website.
All of you in charge of this house have views you share and views that are divergent.
We all benefit from this.
"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:27:01 PM EST

Thank you (none / 0)

I'm voting for the Democratic candidate in the fall. Lucky for me, that's probably going to be Barack Obama.

I have nothing but contempt for those refusing to support the Democratic candidate because they didn't get their way, like whiny little children. That goes for both Obama and Clinton supporters, but given that there are more Clinton supporters making that threat, it goes double for them. When the Iraq war drags on for years killing thousands of people, and women start dying because the supreme court overturns Roe v. Wade, their blood is going to be on your hands.

It's well past time that people fucking got serious about this election. There is serious fucking shit going on in this country right now, and it's no time for anyone to sit this out over sour grapes.


Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!
by fwiffo3 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:28:34 PM EST

Re: Thank you (2.00 / 1)

I won't sit out don't worry...


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:45:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you (2.00 / 1)

Threats to vote for McCain haven't won over a single voter.

I'm sure you'll be happy having four more years like the last eight.


Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!
by fwiffo3 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:01:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you (none / 0)

Did it ever occur to you that there are people who like McCain better than Obama?

Also, why should they support a party they don't even recognize anymore?

Why support any party for that matter?

Go with your ideals, and make a weighted decision.

Threats will get you nowhere.


by sas on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:10:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you (2.00 / 1)

so they should vote for him, Millions will

but those who try and use this as blackmail, suggesting we nominate Hillary or else. they are free to leave whenever.


Dream for tomorrow but fight for it today.
by TruthMatters on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:16:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you (2.00 / 2)

I'm just pointing out the consequences of a McCain presidency.

Seriously, if you believe that John McCain would be a better president than Barack Obama, go ahead and vote for him. Just realize what that means.

Permanent occupation of Iraq.
Overturning Roe v. Wade.
Increasing deficits.
Dismantling of Social Security.

If you're happy with those consequences, by all means, vote for John McCain. If those things appeal to you, then you are a Republican by virtue of supporting the Republican party platform.


Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!
by fwiffo3 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:16:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you (2.00 / 1)

Well going from one senator who helped Bush invade Iraq to another would have a certain perverse consistency.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If your ideals are with McCain (2.00 / 2)

Then why would Hillary.  There is no question Clinton and Obama are much closer in ideology than are Clinton and McCain.  I can't imagine why someone would support HRC and then vote McCain.  Please enlighten me.

Is it his anti-choice stant?  Is it his pro war stand, because HRC is calling for immediate withdrawl.  Gun Control?  Economics?  The housing crisis?  I don't get it.  But hey, it's your vote.


by nwgates on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:48:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If your ideals are with McCain (none / 0)

Because lots of people find Obama a tad scary.  I don't trust him, especially in foreign policy.  He's just too friggin' angry and bitter.  Listen to his speeches!  Listen to how many times he says angry, especially when he talks about blacks.  I do not want an angry President.  Maybe it's just me, but I don't trust people who are so angry.  Loose cannons, if you know what I mean.  

Will I vote for McCain?  I just don't know, but I won't vote for Obama.  


by SueBee on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:36:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Angry?! (none / 0)

Do you know anything about McCain?  His temper and emotional instability are legendary.  And Obama has been nothing but even-keeled-even when he "talks about blacks".  I've listened to a lot of his speeches.  Anger is not a predominant emotion.  He does claim that people are angry- but if you aren't somewhat angry after the last 7 years of lies, war and torture, you aren't a Democrat.  He seems to me to be the most emotionally stable person in the race.  The "shame on you, Barack Obama" temper tantrum?  Please, if you are going to make up reasons to not like someone, at least make them believable.


by nwgates on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:47:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you (2.00 / 1)

You are right.  Since you believe that your daughters and grandaughters should have to go to to the hardware store if they happened to have an unplanned pregnancy, you should vote for McCain.

I believe in a woman's right to choose however so I will vote for the candidate that represents that.  I believe it is called a "values voter"


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:48:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

great read.


Dream for tomorrow but fight for it today.
by TruthMatters on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:28:36 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Excellent diary. I was so proud to be an Obama supporter when he held his fire last night on the issue of Bosnia when he had a golden opportunity when she as much as admitted she lied to the American people on multiple occasions. He gave her a total pass.


Senator Obama will be formally nominated on August 28, 2008 - the 45th Anniversary of Dr. King's "I Have A Dream Speech."
by brimur on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:29:00 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

He hit her in other place.  Obama was too busy reeling from the questions that didn't make him look like a demi-god, as usual.

I know Barry (Barak) was missing his fav sycophant, Chris Matthews.


by stefystef on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:29:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Give me a break (2.00 / 3)

Obama's campaign has been pushing republican talking points on Clinton since October.  "More of the same"?  What do you think that means?  This is not the revolution- Obama is just as much 'more of the same' as Clinton is.


by linc on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:29:31 PM EST

Re: Give me a break (2.00 / 0)

More of the same old divisive politics...


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:30:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly (2.00 / 1)

you can't attack the same old by using the same old politics.


by linc on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:34:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly (none / 0)

Lucky for him he didn't.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:18:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Give me a break (2.00 / 1)

She's running on experience.

The experience is mostly the Clinton presidency.

Bill Clinton was president for 8 years.

How is she not "the same"?

She's freakin' running mainly based on being the same.


by bawbie on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:32:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BECAUSE (2.00 / 3)

Bill Clinton was and still is a Democrat- one that has taken a lot for this party and one that does not deserve to be lumped into the same group as George W. Bush.  Bill Clinton is not more of the same. fullstop.


by linc on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BECAUSE (none / 0)

Huh?

No one was saying that.

But you can't say you are a break from the ways things have been in the past when you were part of that past.


by bawbie on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:39:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BECAUSE (none / 0)

I think Bush is a result of the last "Change" candidate Nader


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:46:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BECAUSE (none / 0)

If Obama's Nader, who's Gore in this election?


by Capt America on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:55:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BECAUSE (2.00 / 1)

Please don't insult everyone here's intelligence by comparing Obama and Nader.


by bawbie on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:05:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BECAUSE (none / 0)

Why would you want a break from the past - during the Clinton years.  I'll GLADLY take those years anytime!

Bring on the past!!!!!!  It's the present with W that sucks!

Back to the future!


by sas on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:12:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BECAUSE (none / 0)

Taken a lot for this party? Like what?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:37:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What, are you 12? (2.00 / 1)

Do you not remember the witch hunt of Ken Starr and the 160 million in gov't money the GOP spent to find out that, like every politician since the beginning of this country, Clinton got a BJ in the Oval Office?


He has stood up for our values under the biggest, best funded GOP attack campaigns in modern history and still left office with one of the highest approval ratings of any president in the modern era.  He exposed the GOP for what it is- a bunch of frat boys.


Then comes along Obama with the 'change' campaign in which he basically ripped off every other successful Democrats' messaging- and then he had the gall to call the Clintons more of the same.


Obama is more of the same and the worst kind.
by linc on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:44:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What, are you 12? (2.00 / 1)

I'm 40. I remember that stuff but it wasn't something he took "for our party".

He didn't stand up for my values. I'm way more liberal.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:45:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Then why on earth are you supporting (2.00 / 1)

the more conservative candidate in this primary? Economics, healthcare, taxation... the list goes on. Are you a single issue voter?
by linc on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:12:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Then why on earth are you supporting (none / 0)

More conservative my ass. HRC isn't for retroactive application of the USSC guidelines. Her husband's policies devastated my communities. She's for removing due process from the immigration courts for immigrants who commit a crime. Her husband's policies devastated my clients. She's no better than he is on two big issues in my life.

Other than that they're pretty much the same to me.

Oh, and I think mandates are doomed to failure.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:18:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ummm (2.00 / 1)

That was 8 years ago.  There has been another President since then.  The nation is operating on the basis of that other President's policies.  To say "more of the same" is to imply that Hillary will continue Bush's policies.

That's an attack, and it's very far from honest.  Yet it's been the frame of Obama's campaign.  Change against "more of the same."


by Trickster on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:16:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ummm (none / 0)

More of the same partisan politics. Battles with the GOPers. Like Clinton supporters want remember?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wake up (2.00 / 1)

how foolish can you be?  Obama has done the exact same in this campaign when it comes to partisan politics as Clinton- probably a great deal more.


Boy are you going to be disappointed come this time next year if, and thats a big, big IF, Obama gets that far.
by linc on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:46:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wake up (none / 0)

The exact same thing? Uh no. If so, he wouldn't be labeled as a wimp who can't take on the GOP.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:48:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

The party lost in the 90's because of their ineptness and corruption. Stop peddling that line to bolster your argument.


by hairspray on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:30:13 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 3)

I'm suprised by how little many Democrats actually understand very little about the early nineties. The Dems lost the house due to corrruption, a tax hike, and the rise of the "Angry White Male" as a political power bloc.

Dan Rostenkowski and the congressional post office scandal and the house banking scandal were much more damaging then anything Bill Clinton ever did.

Rush Limbaugh and the rise of an angry base of middle aged white males, pissed off about politically correctness took their anger and bitterness (actual bitterness) out on Bill Clinton and the Democrats.

The Dems stabbed Clinton in the back on Health Care, they barely passed the tax hikes (the hike that paid off the debt, created surpluses, and paved the way for the prosperity of the nineties).

But now, in Bizarro world, we lost in the 90's because of Bill and all his scandals, an economy that was a total disaster, and all the good ideas of the Republicans (you know, bankrupting the government, ending a women's right to choose, etc).


by kevko24 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:59:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I especially appreciated Bill using the Defense of Marriage Act to help bolster his 96 re-election. Sacrificing a beleaguered constituency to secure the votes of bigots is always a sign of good progressive democratic leadership.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:32:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Let's not forget Don't Ask Don't Tell.

I think Bill Clinton was a great president, especially compared to the ones before and after him.  But let's not pretend he was perfect, any more than Obama (or Hillary) would be.  But if Hillary is going to somehow claim the good things Bill did, she gets the bad ones too.  Sorry, you don't get to cherry pick.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:44:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I agree.  He was a good president, but one who was a bit too quick to swing right when it served him.  Hillary, too (AUMF being the obvious).  I also fully expect Obama to disappoint.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:47:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Clinton wa actually sandbagged by Bob Dole and the Repubs in congress on this issue. Then, Dems in congress bailed on him. It was a terrible solution that was sadly the best that could be arrived at the time. More of an indictment of the times than of Clinton.


by kevko24 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 08:23:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

First I'd like to say thanks for a truly great post.  You've highlighted some valid points of Obama supporters in a very respectful tone.  

But to follow that up I can't believe that so many people are suprised by Kos' take on the subject.  After all he's always been extremely suspect of moderate democrats and has spouted off against them on numerous occasions.  

He's merely reiterating his mission statement - more and better democrats.  He feels that Clinton has stepped over the Lieberman line and should feel the backlash.


by Tenafly Viper on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:32:23 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 8)

So I would not question whether or not Hillary Clinton is a Democrat. But at the same time, I wouldn't by any means agree with the proposition that Obama supporters care more about their hatred of the Clintons than they do about electing Obama in November.

That's big of you to not question her Democratic credentials Jonathan.

You've posited it as being a unqualified claim against all "Obama supporters", which is a convenient straw man. Now, surely you are not blind to the phenomenon of hatred toward Clinton that's been exposed? Perhaps "some" instead of "many" means you don't have to go out of your way here?


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:33:08 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

I see hatred of Obama everywhere, including this very thread. A primary like this one creates a gaping, open wound, and we just keep getting more of them. The end of the campaign will heal many of those wounds. Of course, the longer we go on, the more difficult the bleeding will be to control.

Both campaigns have played dirty, but only one keeps returning to it over and over after things start to get cleaned up.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:39:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

wrong word (2.00 / 5)

hatred? attacks? tearing down? Dirty? Look, those are all campaign tactics viewed through the eye of the beholder. This is a Democratic site, and I've praise for both Obama and Clinton, in regard for what they've done for the Democratic Party.

Jonathan does himself a great disservice in this diary, but conflating the actual issue here that's developed, that of Obama supporters saying Clinton is not a Democrat, which whatever issue he has about some 'line' that's somewhere being crossed in his mind. I don't know that 'line' talk is about, but its immaterial to the situation.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:45:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wrong word (2.00 / 1)

It's currently mostly Clinton supporters threatening to vote for McCain in the fall. I don't really care to hear about the mote in my eye until you take a look at the beam in yours.


Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!
by fwiffo3 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:50:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You missed his point (none / 0)

Jonathan is arguing that when it comes to her policies and outlook Clinton is clearly a democrat. He is trying to explain the sentiment of those who disagree by discussing her scorched earth campaign tactics. Thus, it is central to the argument he is making.


by Quarterbackjoe on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:59:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wrong word (2.00 / 2)

Respectfully disagree...

We all know where the "line" is... it is something that is defined by each of us.  For some Clinton supporters, Obama has crossed the "line"... for some Obama supporters, Clinton has crossed the "line"...

What is immaterial is the definition of the "line" or where or when it happened...  but it is incredibly material to what is going on right now.

People on both sides are saying they will not vote for - enter name of candidate other than their favorite - regardless....  Tacitly or implicitly giving McCain a victory in November will show 'em...!  It will also show the country something... Democrats have perfected the art of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory....

I have seen, on this site, both Clinton and Obama referred o as "not Democrats"....


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:06:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

You are wrong.

The end of the campaign will not heal wounds.  I will not forget.


by sas on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:14:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Really. Do you mean never ever? So you'll never forgive the Democratic or the millions of people who voted for and supported Obama? Or will you forgive them if he loses and in four years you need them to try and get your girl elected again?

Wounds take time to heal, and that's the entire reason many of us have been saying letting the primary season continue for months is suicide for either candidate. If Hillary pushes this into August and we lose, she will NOT be forgiven. Bet on that.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:49:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Then why are you here?


by wasder on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:49:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hate is a very strong word Jerome (none / 0)

I do not think that most Obama supporters hate the Clintons. I for one am disappointed in the Clintons as an African-American.  I have cried because of the  Clintons during this campaign.  It is practically impossible for Hillary to gain the nomination and she knows it.

I do not mind her staying in the race but to continue race-baiting and using republican talking points against Obama is unacceptable. Yes, Obama is going to have to deal with the trash that the GOP throws at him but let HIM deal with it. She does not need to give them more fodder.

Please don't be so ignorantly blind Jerome. You have a certain amount of power on the blogosphere to unite our party behind the eventual nominee. Your actions right now aren't helping.


by regina1983 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:41:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate is a very strong word Jerome (2.00 / 7)

I don't think most do either, but many do. It's painfully obvious that the primary has become the main battle for too many Obama supporters, who are willing now to claim that Clinton is not a Democrat.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:46:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate is a very strong word Jerome (1.75 / 4)

Hasn't she forced that by taking this thing to such great lengths?  By saying things like "McCain has crossed the Commander in Chief threshold" and "There's no such thing as pledged delegates"?  She's made it absolutely clear that winning is HER primary motivation, and that she will say or do anything, including sabotage Obama's entire candidacy, in order to do it.

You can't fault Obama supporters for not looking to the general election when most of us feel like we have to wake up every day to a new attack from the Clintons meant to destroy his candidacy.  

Clinton IS a Democrat, but she has very much absorbed and utilized many Republican talking points for her own benefit (bashing SF and "latte-sipping" Democrats, for one) - how, as a Democrat, am I supposed to support that?


UNITY!
by The Great Gatsby on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:57:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate is a very strong word Jerome (none / 0)

Why was this comment troll-rated?


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:36:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate is a very strong word Jerome (2.00 / 2)

We're seeing a split in the the party between the moderates/old-schoolers and the grass-roots/far-lefties.

We new kids are naturally distrustful or at least questioning of what came before us, since it's easy to view it as "standing in our way" to remaking the party in our own image.

I think a lot of the antipathy towards Clinton comes from the fact that she stands as a rallying point for the older type of Democratic politics, and we (speaking of the wave of grass-roots style Dems) are doing everything in our power to move away from that top-down, DLC-type model.  It's only natural that she becomes a lightning rod of sorts.


by Capt America on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:00:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Let's not sugar coat it (2.00 / 2)

You mean DLC vs. DFA.  

That's what this election is about.  There was a time when the DLC was the only thing we, as Democrats, could realistically hope for.  We Obama supporters are betting that time is gone.  We think that this country is ready for a truly progressivist, rather than centrist, agenda.  Let's see who's right.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:50:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate is a very strong word Jerome (2.00 / 1)

Seriously, I have seen this on both sides...  I have seen Obama referred to as a Republican mole or not a true Democrat....

Is that not also as bad?

We are stuck with one of these two.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:09:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yaknow (2.00 / 1)

The Republicans always claimed that people like you and I, Jerome, Hate Bush.  And used that term, and those words, to demean and dismiss very real and rational criticisms of [i]behavior[/i].  Of actions and words said by candidates.

I mean, I'm used to having my candidate called an 'elitist.'  Just not by other Democrats.  It cheapens our party when one side legitimizes attacks and slurs invented and perpetrated by the Republicans by repeating them and using them for their own.

You are confusing criticisms of actions for criticisms of inherent ability or general character.  It's obvious to everyone that Hillary is a Democrat.  She's just not acting like one at the moment.  If you would take a step back, you would see that she could be running a Republican campaign with the kind of language and attacks towards Obama she pulls out on a regular basis.


by Cycloptichorn on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:23:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate is a very strong word Jerome (none / 0)

"I don't think most do either, but many do. It's painfully obvious that the primary has become the main battle for too many Obama supporters, who are willing now to claim that Clinton is not a Democrat."

Jerome, As with most things in this very unfortunate situation I think both sides would say this about the other. Since Clinton is so far behind and grasping for whatever advantage she can get, it seems to me that she (and her followers) are only looking towards the next primary to keep the campaign going. Whenever Obama and his followers attempt to pivot to the GE there is this outrage about presumption. So for whom is the primary the main battle?


by wasder on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:55:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 3)

If we're playing the straw man game, how many Obama supporters have actually said what Bill Clinton (via BTD) attributes to them:

There's really no difference between what happened in the Bush years and the Clinton years

So, yeah, when someone says that bloggers who support Obama (I voted for him in the California primary, as I said at the time, though I would happily and certainly vote for either Obama or Hillary Clinton over John McCain) "hatred of Bill and Hillary Clinton has become more important to them than Obama's chances of winning in November", I would take umbrage with that sentiment. I think it's ludicrous, certainly with regards to me, and frankly with regards to the vast majority of Americans, bloggers and non-bloggers alike, who have voted for Obama.


Blogging here @ MyDD.com. Twittering @jonathanhsinger.
by Jonathan Singer on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:42:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are like most (the good guys) (2.00 / 5)

Are you joking by creating another one? Is that the quote I emphasized?

Maybe 'many' is a stretch, but it's painfully obvious to me that 'some' Obama supporters that are online are more concerned with defeating Clinton than they are Obama.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:55:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are like most (the good guys) (2.00 / 3)

  Where do you get this evidence when polls show that more Clinton supporters abandon the party for the general election?  Some on the blogs are being more than ridiculous - saying that Hillary is not a Democrat.  Can we maybe step back from the brink a bit?  We want to win the general just as badly as you do.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:01:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are like most (the good guys) (none / 0)

Even though you conflate, you have touched upon something significant.  Obama supporters are attracted to the new politics that calls out divisiveness for what it is.  Hillary was a great candidate for many of us, but she has increasingly and some would say, desperately, tilted toward the old style divisiveness that we are all very attuned to.  Last night was the last straw, and we are pissed.  Don't be so surprised.


by haystax calhoun on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:13:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are like most (the good guys) (1.00 / 1)

Oh yeah...you all see things so CLEARLY.

Calling out divisiveness for what it is.....

Say, have you got any "Race Cards" ?


by sas on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:16:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Say, have you got any "Race Cards" ? (none / 0)

Sorry, haven't seen them since Ferraro's solitaire tournament.


by haystax calhoun on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:40:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are like most (the good guys) (2.00 / 3)

Now we're down to a question of fact.

I feel very comfortable in my factual position that the Obama campaign has been more negative and more divisive, earlier and more often, than the Clinton campaign.

Google up the political news from the dates between Nevada and South Carolina, i.e., 1/19-1/26.  It was a week of savage character assassination against Hillary and Bill Clinton, much of it coming from the very top of the Obama campaign, including the candidate himself.  The result was a huge win in SC for Obama, much larger than expected, and that gave him the momentum he took into February, which was his big month.

If Obama wins this thing, 1/19-1/26 should be seen as the week where the worm turned.  The story is not a pretty one.


by Trickster on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:26:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are like most (the good guys) (2.00 / 2)

REPEATED, CAUSE YOU ASKED FOR IT:

From this week's Washington Post/ABC News poll:
"While a quarter of Democrats who see the campaign as generally negative blame both sides, more than three times as many blame Clinton's team as Obama's."

I won't post the link again, but I would love for you to show me any poll that shows that voters think Obama is running the more negative campaign.  
GOOD LUCK.


by haystax calhoun on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:36:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are like most (the good guys) (2.00 / 1)

Are you really trying to prove a question of fact by citing to a poll, or are my eyes deceiving me?

I remember that polling in 1988 showed that solid majorities of Americans favored (1) lower taxes, (2) increased medicare spending, (3) a stronger military, and (4) a balanced budget.  That's when we were already running huge deficits.

Then there were of course, the classic 2003 polls showing vast majorities believing that most of the 9/11 hi-jackers were Iraqi and that Saddam was working closely with Al Qaeda and had been behind 9/11.


by Trickster on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: prove a question of fact (2.00 / 1)

Ok, so your opinion is a FACT now?  That's called "delusion".


by haystax calhoun on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:13:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Huh? (2.00 / 1)

n/t


by Trickster on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:52:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are like most (the good guys) (none / 0)

That's just silly. You can't claim your position is factual when it's not only disputed, but the lion's share of observers, myself included, have the diametrically opposed take on that week.

From where I was sitting it was the Clinton camp that was race-baiting.

But you're right about one thing: it wasn't pretty.


by abrxas on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:09:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Well geez, if you'd only just said that, instead of couching the whole thing in yet another baseless attack on Clinton. BTD says something you found offensive, so it must be Clinton's fault. I mean, good grief.  


Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are. - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
by anna belle on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:42:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

I know you've been out of pocket but there's been a damn healthy dose of hate coming the other direction  around here lately.


Senator Obama will be formally nominated on August 28, 2008 - the 45th Anniversary of Dr. King's "I Have A Dream Speech."
by brimur on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:47:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Yeah, Jerome probably missed it, but after Obama's comments, every single recced diary was bashing him for it, including three by the same person. When Obama is attacked, he is not defended and the attack is not denied, it is strengthened and repeated over and over.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:05:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He didn't state or imply all Obama supporters (none / 0)

You created the straw man.


by Quarterbackjoe on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:48:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 3)

With all due respect, Jerome, the argument which has been made, rather compellingly in my opinion, in this diary assumes the best electoral prospects of the party as a given and assesses the nomination in respect of that goal.  Surely the partisan support for either candidate must defer to that consideration at some point if the campaign is perceived as diminishing those prospects.

Admittedly when that point is reached is fiercely debatable and the subject of disagreement between candidate partisans.  Given the evidence at hand, last night's debate being Exhibit A, it is apparent that this is a reasonable discussion to be having at this time, irrespective of the conclusion.  But doesn't that remain the most relevant argument and precisely the one addressed in this diary?

The only remaining compelling argument which Hillary supporters seem to be making for her candidacy, and I am dismissing the diverse electoral arguments in favour of the metric of superdelegate and pledged delegate count in legitimate primaries as sanctioned by the DNC, is that Obama is 'unelectable,' an argument which Hillary herself publicly and unequivocally abandoned during last night's debate.  What other justification remains for her continued candidacy if one accepts that the prolongation of this contest is damaging to the eventual nominee?

Asserting that partisan supporter attitudes toward candidates are an issue, while certainly valid, seems secondary to the outcome of an election which is of vital importance to the party as a whole.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:02:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Go to SUSA today and see the matchups.  Obama looks WEAK.

The Republican internals, and blogs, all feel with NO DOUBT McCain can easily beat him.

Hillary will be a more formidable challenger, and they expect to lose to her in a close election.

Don't believe me?  Look around.........and Obama is weaker the more that comes out...


by sas on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:20:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Really?

Electoral Votes:
Clinton - 147
Obama - 132

Guess what happens when you add Ohio to Obama's tally?

It's still way too early in the process to worry about GE polls.  The simple fact of the matter is that in the states that Clinton beat Obama, many Democratic voters are undecided when it comes to having to pick someone other than their candidate.  It's completely understandable.  I know if I (a resident of Ohio) was asked to pick between Clinton and McCain, I would say undecided even though I KNOW I would vote for Clinton in that instance.  

The thing is, Obama and Clinton are still in the race.  I'm not going to voice my support for the opposite candidate.  All you need is a couple percent of folks who feel as I do and the entire poll is skewed.

I have every confidence that when the Democratic party chooses their nominee, the party will rally behind him/her and the poll bounces will be immediate, increasing and sustained.


by RussTC3 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:35:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 4)

I don't care about what the Republicans think or say that they think.  I do not live in fear of them and I do not make decisions based on fear of what they will say or do.

Making choices based on fear of Republican attacks is something that has paralyzed our party for too long.  I, for one, will not go down that road again.

Sorry, but this fearmongering will not work.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:39:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Exactly right!


by RussTC3 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:49:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

Thank you!  That's why we got Kerry instead of Dean, because Democrats freaked out and thought Kerry would be more electable, even though they actually liked Dean more.  Having lived in MA, I love Kerry.  But he wasn't half the candidate Dean would have been.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:55:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I'm personally glad I'm not living under President Dean. I'll be satisfied when he's back to being the political novelty he once was. He's hugely responsible for this rift in the party, with those stupid rules regarding MI/FL, then letting Dona Brazile run roughshod so there would be an even more undesirable "punishment." This is what happens when you hand the party over to amateurs.


Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are. - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
by anna belle on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Hillary will not win in November by default. That is not a given, and I don't know why you think it would be. Not if she wins by overturning popular vote and staging a coup of superdelegates.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:53:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 3)

What other justification remains for her continued candidacy if one accepts that the prolongation of this contest is damaging to the eventual nominee?

That, counting Florida and Michigan, she can win?

You certainly realize that they are about 15 delegates apart with the inclusion of those two states. Why wouldn't she play hardball to count those states in the process.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:25:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Those weren't primaries (2.00 / 2)

They were beauty contests.

Intellectual integrity should keep her from pushing for the counting of those delegates.


by Quarterbackjoe on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:48:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bull (2.00 / 3)

I've seen this repeated over and over but it has little merit.  The MI primary was doomed as soon as all of the candidates, including Hillary, said that it would not count for anything.  Republicans in the legislature were never going to agree to a redo and they have a majority in the state senate.

Blaming this situation on Obama might make you feel self-righteous, but it isn't accurate.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:41:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

Well, there it is then.  The crux of Hillary's candidacy becomes a credentials or procedural issue that, at this point, seems only to be resolved on the convention floor.  With that argument, which seems to heavily favour the ambiguous legitimacy of those two primaries over the prospects for the party overall I assume you are advocating taking this nomination unresolved to Denver.  Without begging all of the arguments around that issue do you really presume that the majority of Democrats facing down-ticket races or the party leadership in general would really favour that outcome at this stage?  And given the machinations of the Republican party in facilitating the debacle of Florida in the first place whose interests are served by letting these tangential issues divide the party in an election which at face value is such a golden opportunity for Democrats in general?


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:51:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

I didn't realize the faux-outrage of Florida and Michigan not being seated was still on-going.

Florida and Michigan will be seated at the convention.  End of story.


by RussTC3 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:53:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

They are 15 apart---is that giving Obama nothing for Michigan? If so, that is not even worth your breath saying because it won't go down that way.


by wasder on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:25:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Really, Jerome? (none / 0)

You know better.  There was no Florida campaign.  I think it is safe to say that if candidates were not allowed to campaign before elections, Hillary would have won months ago based on name recognition alone.  As for Michigan-

You know better.


by nwgates on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:26:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wrong (2.00 / 2)

A lot of our hatred is directed toward McCain, and the rest is toward a select few Hillary SUPPORTERS.  I would hope that none of us actually hate Hillary.  If she wins the nomination, I'll support her.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dislike of GOP Transfered To Clintons (none / 0)

I voted for Bill twice, but the Clintons use of GOP talking points, cozying up to GOP figures like Scaife and Murdoch (who's paying for that library?), praising McCain, and now getting the same sort of the push from the press that rammed Bush down our throats has allowed people to channel all their dislike for the GOP onto the Clintons.
by bernardpliers on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:34:39 PM EST

Re: Dislike of GOP Transfered To Clintons (none / 0)

And you are simply so naive since you believe anything that is said in the MSM.  It is easy to hate and blame the Clintons if you buy into the MSM crap.  The press has hated the Clintons because the Clintons resented their game in the 90s.   The elite press never accepted a poor white trash boy as Arkansas, and he still won.  So their bruised egos went after them in the worst way and as a result Senator Clinton does NOT trust them or k*ss their elite a**es.  But the Obama folks refuse to see it and believe everything the elite press corps feeds them.  But now, it no longer surprises me.


by Jjc2008 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:20:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

Excellent piece, Jonathan.  This has very little to do with "irrational hatred" of Bill and Hillary Clinton.  It has entirely to do with the fact that so many of us are desperate not to go back to the leadership style we had in the Democratic Party in the later 1990s and early 2000s, and that's what Hillary's election would represent.

Every single time Hillary's campaign dismissed entire states and blocs of voters as irrelevant; every single time Hillary or Bill conceded the issue of national security to McCain; every single time Hillary said that McCain has the experience and Obama doesn't; and every single time Clinton's big-money supporters felt they could blackmail the party;  every single time something like that happened, it just confirmed to many who were the founding idealogues behind the 50-state-strategy that if Hillary won, we would go back to the old McCauliffe days of Republican-lite corporatism, rather than continuing to draw distinctions between our parties.

That's not irrational.


by hekebolos on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:34:40 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

Every single time Hillary's campaign dismissed entire states and blocs of voters as irrelevant;

OK, that's zero times.

every single time Hillary or Bill conceded the issue of national security to McCain;

Add zero more.

every single time Hillary said that McCain has the experience and Obama doesn't;

Add one.

and every single time Clinton's big-money supporters felt they could blackmail the party;

And finally, add zero more.  The total is one.

Lots of noise, lots of big exaggerations.  And about as much accuracy as describing the Clinton Administration as "McCauliffe days of Republican-lite corporatism."


by Trickster on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:31:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

That comment was very dumb.  I also am annoyed that Hillary increasingly sounds like a poster at Free Republic, but she's hardly the only Democrat to have fallen into this trap.  Obama's healthcare flyers earlier were straight out of the rightwing Harry & Louise campaign, so this is a problem both of them have had.    


Saxby Chambliss
by bosdcla14 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:34:51 PM EST

Boo Freaking Hoo (2.00 / 3)

Why in the world does Obama deserve to be handled with kid gloves. If he can't take the hits, he doesn't belong where he's at. All this whining is truly disgraceful.


by doyenne49 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:41:28 PM EST

Re: Boo Freaking Hoo (none / 0)

Very few people are saying that Obama deserves to be unscathed in all this.  Frankly, as a supporter, it seems like the harder he's hit the better he bounces back.  By all means, swing away.

The real issue comes when supporters (on both sides) start making claims that they're being unfairly persecuted.  It's victim politics, and it distracts from what's actually important in this race; beating the Republicans.


by Capt America on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:04:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boo Freaking Hoo (none / 0)

Did everyone get together and decide that "whine" was the word of the day?  Seriously, multiple posts and even a diary....

And, if Obama can beat Clinton, he can handle anything else that is thrown his way... except maybe Democrats sitting the election out because they wanted Hillary to win...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:13:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly right (none / 0)

Kos was wrong. Hillary is a dem by reason of her policies. There is a difference between campaigning and governing.

But there are lines not to be crossed, and the fundamental line Hillary crossed was with her 3 am ad and her alignment with McCain on national security issues, leaving Obama as the odd man out. The math was the same as it is now. She had little chance. That arrow should have stayed in the quiver. Now it'll be featured in general election advertising. Bad form.


by Quarterbackjoe on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:43:20 PM EST

Both democrats are flawed (1.66 / 6)

But Jerome baited people with his post.

Thank you for responding.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:43:28 PM EST

Blue Jean?? How do you TR This??? (none / 0)

SG said:

"Both democrats are flawed"

"Jerome baited with his post" (he did, even if I 'side' with him)

"Thank you for responding"

THAT gets a TR?

WTF???????????


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:30:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I assume (none / 0)

they are a ratings troll and ignore it, it wasn't HR'ed so no big deal I think it is my fourth TR because I am rational.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:20:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (1.00 / 5)

I agree with you completely.  In recent weeks, Jerome has lost his grip on reality.  Whenever I see his byline, I skip onto the next column.


by tomthroop on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:48:56 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (1.66 / 3)

Obama, the media and his supporters have crossed SEVERAL lines that they shouldn't have but did. Deal with the fallout you bunch of whinny babies.


by Iceblinkjm on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:49:56 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

  We're feeling the love.  :)  Keep building that party!


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:51:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Clinton, the media, and her supporters have crossed SEVERAL lines that they shouldn't have but did...

You have fallout of your own to worry about.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:14:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

A simple fact.
Obama will be our candidate.
He earned it by coming out on top through a hard campaign. We had other quality candidates.
Sit back and think about the Dem slate v the Republican slate last December.

As a Party we have a chance for a landslide not seen by our Party for over 40 years.
It is fine if you cannot support Obama with passion.
However, where we live there are individuals we can support with our effort and yes our money.

The line that sticks with me from Obama's speech on race is "not this time!"

We as a party will stand tall in repudiation of the Republican/Media onslaught this Fall and say
"Not this Time"
We will work really hard for at least one candidate that may have lost in the past and say
"Not this time!"
...and when the mighty powers aligned against us
strive to maintain their grip on our lives we will say "Not this Time"


"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:58:55 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 4)

I agree with Big Tent Democrat, wholeheartedly.

Oh, and Hillary has run a negative campaign?

How about the Obama playing the race card against Democrats who have worked all their lives to build racial bridges?  How about him saying his supporters might not support her, but the other way around it would work?  How about Michelle having to "think" about working for her?  How about "You're likeable enough, Hillary?"

How about his supporters on The Daily Kos, HuffPo, TPM, etc, tearing down the Clintons at every turn, and him not saying ONE WORD - thus quietly acquiescing to what is going on?  How about him not saying ONE WORD about the misogyny directed at Hillary?

With Obama in the race, the Democratic party, for the first time in my adult life, has turned on itself.  

I'm sorry, he's the vile common denominator in this party's destruction.  

HE REAPS WHAT HE HAS SOWN.


by sas on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:59:45 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

From ABCNews/Washington Post poll:
"While a quarter of Democrats who see the campaign as generally negative blame both sides, more than three times as many blame Clinton's team as Obama's."

I won't post the link again, but I would love for you to show me any poll that shows that voters think Obama is running the more negative campaign.  


by haystax calhoun on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:29:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Front page war! (2.00 / 1)

Kidding.

I disagree with kos' stupid post. Hillary Clinton is damn good Democrat and I'd gladly suport her in a general election.

Her piling on on the Ayers' story and throwing in Farrakhan's name, unprompted, during the Wright question were her only options at this point if she is to have any chance to win.

The fact is, her campaign is desperate and she is not ready to give up. Fine.

That said, the real proof as to her standing as a "good Democrat" will come after Obama officially becomes the nominee.

And I have a feeling that, unlike the so-called Democrats who inhabit places like NoQuarter or hillaryis44 (and, yes, a few Clinton stalwarts here), she will roll up her sleeves and go to work to help Obama beat McCain.


by Bob Johnson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:59:53 PM EST

Re: Front page war! (2.00 / 1)

I agree... nicely said Bob...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:15:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Front page war! (none / 0)

Hillary is desperate, true, but desperate to do what, exactly?  She knows she can't win the nomination.  Therefore, there must be some other purpose for her behavior.  What do you suggest it is?


"It's time to pass the baton to the next generation." Ken Jacobson, WA state senator.
by tibbs on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:31:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She thinks she still has a chance to win. (2.00 / 2)

So do many of her backers here. That's why she's still at it.

Whether this kind of stuff hurts her (and Bill) in the long run is an open question. But Democrats are a forgiving bunch. Don't forget that many Dems were furious with Gore after his 2000 failure. Mow, he's a hero.

As I noted, I think the real measure of Clinton will come once Obama is officially the nominee. I suspect she'll work hard to help him win in November.


by Bob Johnson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:38:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Front page war! (2.00 / 1)

But technically, she can win the nomination and I dont begrudge her that fact.

Based on the upcoming results playing out as expected, she will not have the pledged delegate lead at the end of the process (or popular vote lead, or states won lead, etc.).  But Obama will not have enough pledged delegates to win the nomination outright without uncommitted supers.  So she needs to give those uncommitted supers enough doubt in Obama so that they choose her over him.  And even in the case where enough supers come to Obama she can still take this to the convention and force a vote and try and get pledged and supers to flip then.  Its all technically possible and allowed.

This means that she has to detory Obama or he has to implode.  So she will 1) goad him at every opportunity to attempt to get him to over react and gaffe hard, 2) hope some explosive dirt comes up that craters him on his own and/or 3) continue to use the 'well the republicans will do this so Im just toughening him up' routine.  If she campaigns all nice and sunshiney from here on out she has absolutely zero shot.  Her only shot is for Obama to be seen as worthless in the eyes of the supers.  There will be zero positive campaigning from them from here on out.  Welcome to real world politics.

So if she gets that to happen, she steps in and, viola, shes the nominee.

Since its not techincally over, its a valid strategy.  Its not a warm and fuzzy strategy but shes spent over a hundred million dollars on this and has planned for it for almost a decade, so shes not just going to give up now when she still has a technical shot.

What the Clintons are banking on is the usual 50 + 1 doctrine holding up if they somehow secure the nomination.  They expect that once the dust settles, enough people will come back to the fold and forgive and they will be able to win that way.  They may very well be right because they will then play on our fears of a McCain presidency to us loyal dems and we will follow.

Im not about to let McCain get the presidency because my feelings will be hurt.  I want to say I will take my ball home and not vote for them and I would want to find a way to punish them for actions I am sure I do and will view as despicable underhanded treachery.  But in the end, what choice do I have?  None really.


by pattonbt on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:55:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Front page war! (2.00 / 1)

That said, the real proof as to her standing as a "good Democrat" will come after Obama officially becomes the nominee.

And she said what she would do to (I read it in the transcript)-- go wherever she is told, coast to coast.

You know, wasn't it Clinton that sucked it up and go to work for Lamont, while Obama sat on the sidelines?


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:40:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, Jerome and my next sentence says as much. (2.00 / 1)

I believe she will work hard to elect Obama over McCain.

As for Lamont, Obama's relative silence on that race  has been one of my biggest disappointments with him. I hammered him over that and even traded notes with him on it.

I'm not an Obama worshipper. But I think he is a superior candidate for a host of reasons.

As noted, I also think kos' comment was inane.


by Bob Johnson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:44:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Front page war! (2.00 / 1)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection was that Clinton met with Lamont in NY, but never went to CT to campaign for him.

That said, Obama never did so either and that is part of the reason I only recently became a supporter.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:48:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Front page war! (none / 0)

I'd like to think you're right, and maybe 50% of me does.  But the other 50% of me subsribes to the view that 2012 is in her sights.  She can't win, and she's going out gracelessly.


by haystax calhoun on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Th proof will be in the pudding. (2.00 / 1)

If she works hard to get him elected, your doubts will be erased. I think that is what she'll do.


by Bob Johnson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:45:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Front page war! (none / 0)

I have said from day one I would vote for whomever the nominee is and I WILL.  But that does not abate my anger at the ugly way in which SOME Obama supporters have talked down to and insulted me because I simply have my own take on things.  But that is part of politics...I accept that and I will get over it.  But THIS is what really, really angers me.  People like me (and like Hillary) have put decades into getting liberal democrats elected.  And what do the kos people do?  They BLAME us...the men and women my age that failed "THEM".  And yet just going back four years, to the caucus for the 2004 election. I was there....with THREE FREAKING Other people.  And at 57 years old I WAS THE YOUNGEST.  
And most of the people who were willing to get off their arses and work to get rid of that a**hole in the WH were MY age.  Now suddenly my caucus was filled.  And no, it wasn't all young voters.  The majority were thirty and forty somethings...who damn well could have been there four years ago.  
NOW suddenly and quite ARROGANTLY they were there looking their nose down at me....like I was some old, out of place, not with it woman who didn't have the ability to "understand things on their level."   So I put in four decades of my life supporting democratic candidates, helping to get them elected and NOW I am not good enough.  Ditto for Hillary.  Do you know how many democrats she helped get elected in her decades of supporting liberal causes.

It is "elitism" that bugs me.  And it has nothing to do with god or guns or gays.  It has to do with people looking their noses down at those of us who protested against the Reagan administration.  It's people like Markos who by his own admission supported Reagan, suddenly are deciding that people like me and Hillary are not democrats????

We have compromised according to him and his site.... well HELLO, when you barely can get people in your party to vote, when you go to protest Reagan's policies in South American and his stance on Apartheid and his Star Wars and you are part of a group of 10 people every time, then damn straight democrats had to compromise to even win the WH.  All these "anti war" sanctimonious Obama supporters...where the hell were they at the last election.  Why was Bush allowed to get away with sh*t?   Sure we picked up a few seats...but out west, it was the same old, same old people working our asses off to change our red state to blue.  And when we did, NOW you want to crush those of us who were pounding the pavements then?  

So please, let's end this "Hillary's not a democrat" crap.  That is what it is.  That is as insulting as calling people racists.  That kind of arrogance will turn people away.


by Jjc2008 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:31:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am nearly as old as you... (none / 0)

.. and I have been active in Democratic politics since I was a kid. My father was a precinct captain, as was my grandfather, and I used to walk precincts with them. I have voted for every Democrat for president since I have been eligible to vote. Even the candidates I didn't much care for, but who were far better alternatives to their Republican counterparts.

I am an Obama supporter.

The world is not static. The fact that candidates raise so much money online tells you that. I read posts like your post and it screams "entitlement."

"I was here first, goddamn it!"

How dispiriting in a nation where we're lucky if 50% of the population votes.

Why are you not celebrating the increased participation of voters, young, middle and old?

Instead, you scream, "Where the hell were they last election?"

Last election? You want to go backwards to a time when registered Republicans outnumbered registered Democrats? Why?

Things change. Registered Democrats now outnumber Republicans. And you want to deny these new members the right to participate because you've been working inside the party for years. And they haven't.

Talk about "elitist."

I'm a long time Democratic activist, as well. And I say, "The more the merrier."

Your attitude is precisely what has kept us down. You don't own the Party. And by wishing it was smaller, you doom us.

No thanks.


by Bob Johnson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:32:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am nearly as old as you... (none / 0)

And your continued need to insult and demean people like me is hurting all of us.  I never said I didn't what more people.  You missed the point.  It's the arrogance...it's looking your nose down at people who don't "see the light" as YOU define it.
It's your superiority attitude and that has nothing to do with age (though I suspect it has something to do with your ego...I have seen it in the dem party where the words of activist women are dismissed by men like you).

What I said, what I resent is the accusations.  The "you screwed up, the Clintons screwed up" as if the lack of participation by citizens had nothing to do with the inability to pass legistlation.   I suspect the Obama crowd, much like the American Idol crowd, will elect him, and then disappear.  Democracy requires hard work. And without boots on the ground to elect OTHER democrats on a state and local level as well as for Congress, legislation goes nowhere. Instead of you and other Obama folks constantly blaming the Clintons for everything the right wing was able to do, we all might start reminding folks that this is not a temporary process; that the pressure must be kept on.  Everytime I hear Obama folks BLAMING Hillary Clinton for the war, for healthcare failing, I do get angry.  If democrats had been working hard to get legislation passed, if we had shown muscle in the 90s; if the American people had been active participants in their own government, we would never have put idiots like Bush in office.

Do NOT spin my words, sir.  I am sick of it.  The "new" democrats are welcomed...however it is not a glamor thing to work for change and when they start out by BLAMInG OTHERS, whether people like me or the Clintons, it scares me.  These are people looking for scapegoats for their own lack of participation.  If you don't get that, I don't care how long you have been involved and there....you don't get what it takes to create change.  And if some of you guys don't stop with the arrogance of "we know better" you will indeed split this party.


by Jjc2008 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:14:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 0)

Jonathan,

Amen and thank you for this post.


by thinman on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:01:37 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Oh yeah, and how about VOTER suppression?  As in , Obama and his allies in Michigan and Florida, blocked re-votes.

There's a real positive for his campaign....oh yeah....keep building those party bridges.


by sas on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:02:48 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

interesting news, via CNN.....

Howard Dean is telling superdelegates today that he needs them to make a decision NOW

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn...a-dec ision-now/


The sleep of reason begets monsters. -- Francisco Jose de Goya
by joe in oklahoma on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:05:28 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

They're too frightened of the Clintons to speak up.  Howard might as well be talking to the wall.


"It's time to pass the baton to the next generation." Ken Jacobson, WA state senator.
by tibbs on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:33:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (1.00 / 3)

Posts like these make me feel better about voting for McCain. Obama IS clueless on national securitgy, its not a opinion its a fact.


by bsavage on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:06:12 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

So, supporting an unwinnable war in a country that doesn't want us, costing us trillions of dollars that could be spent on actually improving our security while simultaneously breeding thousands of new terrorists is "getting" national security?

Go back to redstate.


by Capt America on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:09:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (1.00 / 1)

Actually ive been a user for well over 2 years- I'm pretty sure I hate Republicans more than you do but during this last year I hate Obama more than I hate nutjobs like Blunt, Dobson, etc


by bsavage on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:13:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 3)

Then maybe you should sign up for an account over there.

Even given the current slant this particular blog has at the moment, once Clinton has been eliminated from the race your options are going to dwindle to "Pro-Obama" or "Anti-Obama," with the Anti camp putting you in line with the Republicans.

I personally find Clinton's inability to capitalize on her massive early advantages or run a cohesive campaign to be far more troubling when it comes to the general than anything I've seen from Obama.  

She took a slow straight pitch over the outside of the plate and tipped it up to the shortstop.  I honestly question her ability to close once the Republicans actually start bringing the heat.

Anyway, have fun voting for the guy who's going to send your kids off to war and bankrupt you.  That'll be fun.


by Capt America on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:24:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Give a good reason, then.  I support Obama over Hillary because his health care is going to be more palatable (thought not necessarily better) to Congress and most people; he prioritizes a complete education overhaul; he hasn't yet totally forgotten what it means to be in debt; he implies that he won't unilaterally support every genocidal move Israel makes; he'll meet to put pressure on our enemies; he prioritizes locking down nuclear weapons; he implies a harder stance on gun control.

Your turn.  Why do you support McCain over Obama?  If you are a centrist and think McCain is closer to your values, that's a totally valid reason, but give some examples.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:12:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Hold up...I'm not a centrist!
Why do I support Clinton?

  • Universal health care not just a subsidy
  • Fighting back against Republicans
  • Sound economic policy
  • Wealth of foreign policy experience

Obama will not unite the party or the country. Sure I think he would appoint the right justices to the SCOTUS and basic dem things however I feel like President Obama would be more like Jimmy Carter rather than JFK or FDR or even  Bill Clinton. The bottom line is with Hillary Clinton,I know what im getting into, both the good and the bad.


by bsavage on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:22:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

I agree that there are many valid reasons to support Hillary over Obama (I personally disagree with them, but they are valid).  What I want to know is what are the valid reasons for supporting McCain over Obama?


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:42:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

There are no reasons to "support McCain". I dont support McCain but at the same time I cant support Obama either. Mainly im voting against Obama- I really dont like the guy.


by bsavage on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:57:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Voting is not a parlour game.

If you vote for McCain then you are stating, officially and with currency more valuable than money, that you support the man and everything he and his party stand for.

If you vote for a Republican presidential candidate as a way to vote against a democrat, you are, in fact, a Rush Limbaugh philosophy major.

Whether you are bold enough to write the words here or not, if you vote for McCain you are, in fact, saying:

"I support George Bush and all he stands for".

And you are saying it with my children's future....

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:22:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (1.00 / 1)

From your comments, I get the feeling that you are very concerned about Obama's electability. I'm not the only Democrat who might vote for McCain/Nader/etc. If you are so concerned about your "children's future" just move to a blue state in the NE.


by bsavage on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:28:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

OK, let's try this again. Are you For or Against: (2.00 / 1)

This is America.

We vote our beliefs.

You have a vote to cast.

Will you vote for or against Roe-V-Wade?

Will you vote for or against a lifetime of Conservative dominated Supreme Court?

Will you vote for or against continued war in Iraq?

These are simple questions.  Wanna make it easy for you.  You can answer with one word in the Subject line (the little box above "Comment").

Take a shot.  Your fellow democrats would like to know where you stand on political issues (your personal feelings are interesting, too - Facebook is good for that...)


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:39:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, let's try this again. Are you For or Again (1.00 / 1)

I'm not going to vote my beliefs. If America voted its beliefs then Gore would be President right now or even Kerry. I dont need a lecture or your finger wagging.


by bsavage on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:20:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, let's try this again. Are you For or Again (2.00 / 1)

In what universe does that make sense?  Nah, instead of voting for what I want, I'll just vote for what people that I dislike want the least.  Yeah, that'll show em!  

Ugh, I have so much more respect for genuine conservatives who support McCain than for someone like you.


by ProgressiveDL on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:23:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)


"You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts."

Daniel Patrick Monyihan


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Since you are not voting Democrat, (2.00 / 1)

why are you here?

I'm an Independent, but in the off-chance that Obama is somehow surpassed in the last days of the campaign I still feel the need to balance the supreme court and have a Dem in the white house.

Every Democrat who says "if Clinton is not the nominee I'm voting McCain/Nader" is, in all likelihood, voting against the Democrats in November, and therefore against the very spirit of everyone else on this site.

And before the flames start, let me just put it this way:  another Obama supporter was stressing to me the other day about how tight things are, and I responded with "imagine how it feels to be in the Clinton camp right now.  It's 1:37 left in the fourth quarter, you're down by 17 points, fourth down and 30.  You need a Hail Mary, an on-side kick returned for a touchdown, another on-side kick and a field goal."  That's honestly how I would feel if the campaigns were reversed, so I don't intended that as any sort of slight to Senator Clinton or her supporters, it's just a tough position to be in.

Sometimes football games go this way and your team pulls off the Holy Cow last-minute win. If Clinton pulls off one of those wins, it's still imho better to have a Dem in this time than a Republican (even one who isn't sure he'll go for a second term) and I've voted Republican often.

So, again, if your answer is "if it's Obama I'm not voting Democrat" then you are most likely voting for McCain (or Nader - good grief).  May as well be honest with everyone here.'

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:30:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Since you are not voting Democrat, (none / 0)

Just because I dont like Obama that doesnt mean I hate my local and state Dems- theyre doing a great job and I will be voting for all of them.


by bsavage on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:33:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Since you are not voting Democrat, (2.00 / 1)

That's great, but they don't appoint Supreme Court Justices, stop (or start) wars, set International policy...

Thanks for retreating into your local shell, but there's this "Which Party Leads the World for the Next Eight Years" thing going on...

OK - if you are cool with McCain, then please write these words where everyone can see them:

"I support George Bush and Everything He Stands For"

...


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:00:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

(Comment Deleted) (none / 0)

This comment has been deleted by an administrator.


by iliketodrum on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:06:39 PM EST

Democrats never seem to realize. (none / 0)

One cannot serve two masters.
Democratics need to decide who their nominee is going to be, and they need to decide that soon.
My thoughts on McCain: I have no desire to let that idiot fulfill his desire to "Bomb Iran"
by Otaku Saru on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:14:07 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

It's not really a matter of whether she's a Democrat or not, of course she's a Democrat.  But is she a good one, is she acting in the best interests of the Party at this point?   Given the math, far from pursuing a scorched earth policy, she should be uniting with Obama vs. McCain on one hand while articulating nuanced policy differences with him.  Especially after seeing the poll of her trustworthy factor - which makes her unelectable in the General - last night should have been a moment where she did everything she could to raise those numbers rather than follow the GOP line of attack on who will most likely be the nominee.  If she is not going to step away from the race, she owes it to all of us to figure out the way to fight which increases both of their chances in the General.  If there is no way for her to do that, then there is no reason for her to continue.


by Piuma on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:15:30 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Joe Lieberman has said less nasty shit about Obama than Hillary has.

Hell JOHN MCCAIN has said less nasty shit about Obama than Hillary has.


by Hesiod Theogeny on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:17:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary may think she's trying to save the Party.. (none / 0)

...from a disasterous Obama defeat.

Now, think about this for a moment. Hillary thinks the date who is kicking her as will lose bigtime in the general election.

So...the only solution is to nominate her -- the candidate who's ass he is kicking.

This is the thinking the got is John Kerry over Howard Dean in 2004.

I'm not sure Howard Dean couldn't have actually done better against Bush than Kerry did.


by Hesiod Theogeny on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:16:14 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (1.66 / 3)

From where I sit and the view I have, I'm thankful that I have Thing Progress and your Blog to visit. Hillary has had to fight two fights here and it must be very difficult to find resonance with Obama Democrats (?) who have constantly vilified her from day one. Obama doesn't have to do the heavy lifting. His rabid fans do it for him. Visit MoveOn,Carpetbagger, TMP, Americablog, Andrew Sullivan each day and note the negative Clinton postings and the the rationale for "Poor Obama" having to take the dirty Clinton tactics on the chin. That's why I don't trust him or his supporters. They ain't seen nothing yet. What's wrong with turning their wrath on McCain? They are so politically immature and are likely to mess this whole thing up. Most likely, if Obama gets the nomination they won't even show up to vote. Unity is the way to Democrative victory in November and we are far from unity.


by fillphil on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:16:40 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Most Democrats agree with us that Hillary is running the more negative campaign.


by haystax calhoun on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:32:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

No they do not.  Most Americans recognize the negative spin on Hillary from the MSM and the Obama camp, who tried to pretend that they don't get down and dirty (which is a lie).

In Key states, Hillary beats McCain where Obama does not.  If Obama is the nominee, McCain is the President.  Simple as that.


by stefystef on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:27:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 3)

I laughed out loud reading "Clinton is not beyond reproach. She isn't above criticism"  Ya think?  She's only been fighting it off for 15 years (and now is getting it from the left just as bad) and your guy gets one night of tough questions and you supporters whine and whine that for once he's not gushed over and treated w/ kid gloves?  Go back and see some of the questions Russert & Williams threw at Hillary when she was the front-runner!  Obama uses right-wing talking points when attacking Hillary as well, so all is fair in this fight!

Crying "Awwww be nice to Obambi you made him sad!" isn't going to convince anyone he is tough enough to win a general election.  Jonathan both you and Obama need to man up!  Hillary sure has, which has me convinced she is the best candidate to win in the fall.


by BlueDoggyDogg on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:18:43 PM EST

what does (2.00 / 1)

"man up"mean?

and how has hillary "manned up" exactly?

sounds sexist


by citizendave on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:37:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what does (2.00 / 1)

it's just a another way to say "toughen up", geez you guys are sensitive.....


by BlueDoggyDogg on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:39:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

sensitive?...nope (none / 0)

just never heard it before.


by citizendave on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:23:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 3)

While I appreciate the tone, I have to disagree with as a number of your points, most notably that Clinton is responsible for Obama's favorability/negative rating. That rating is the fault of no one but Obama, and I'm quite frankly tired of Obama supporters trying to lay that at the feet of Clinton. She didn't tell any lies about Obama, and hardly even mentioned most of his controversies until she was hounded by the press. His controversies are his own, and it was his ineptitude in handling them that caused his ratings.

And while I can appreciate the situation you and your candidate find yourselves in, and have some compassion for you, I wish you guys could reciprocate. That's the biggest divide I see between Clinton and Obama supporters. I know exactly what the faults are of my candidate and I do not try to white wash them or deny they exist, or contort my mind into difficult philosophical stances I might never take otherwise.

At the same time, I sympathize with Obama supporters, even though not with him. He chose to run now, and knew it would be a near impossible task, but he chose it anyway because he saw, as most of us online did, that his was an "all in" poker hand, a gimme-election. Or at least it was until this primary season. Now the Democrats, ALL of them, have fucked this thing up so badly, I don't know what will happen. I know I won't be voting for the first time in 18 years if they don't figure a solution for MI/FL. And he is partly responsible for that. But you will never hear an Obama supporter own that, or any other chink in his armor. You will never hear them own the fact that his refusal to deal on MI/FL is tearing the party apart. That his 1 degree of separation racism charges against the last Dem president and a fine Dem US Senator tore the party apart.

Oh, and the odds are nowhere near 3:1. That's just fantasy garbage you guys tell yourselves so you don't have to live with the fact that the race is neck-and-neck.


Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are. - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
by anna belle on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:22:21 PM EST

Sure. (2.00 / 6)

Where did this 3:1 rule come from? Has it been written anywhere before? Or did someone just make it up and write it into the Ten Commandments because it was convenient for the situation?

The reference to Clinton supporters threatening to stop their contributions to the DCCC was misleading before, and is misleading now. They made their demands because Pelosi was clearly using her prestige to tilt the race towards Obama, and they perceived that as unfair--NOT because Obama was ahead.

Where were you when Clinton was the frontunner and Obama and Edwards spent all their time trying to tear her down?

Basically, this whole post begins by saying that it's not true that Clinton is no longer a Democrat, and then accuses her of acting as if she doesn't care about the Democratic Party. It's kind of insulting to her supporters--it strongly implies that we don't care about the Democratic Party either, or that we haven't thought it through enough.

Stop it. Stop trying to push her out of the race. Stop insulting her supporters and taking them for granted. We're still a democracy here. Or would be if we included Michigan and Florida.


by OrangeFur on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:23:10 PM EST

Florida (none / 0)

Florida is a sore point, because I live here.

I'm pissed off at everyone involved in negating my ability to vote in the primaries. I just moved back to the states, and even before I knew that Obama was viable and figured Clinton would be the candidate that I would be voting Democrat this time, and I was really looking forward to being involved.  I've never been a fan of Hillary, but I am a fan of the American system and had decided that we need a Dem and she was not unqualified.

As it stood, I went out and voted.  Afterwards I had a coffee at the Democrat table outside, signed a petition for a local issue, said some things about how I had supported Bill in the 90s and was told (all smiles, everyone lean in and lower our voices) "don't worry, there is a huge effort underway to get the Clinton vote out" and that the two self-professed clinton volunteers manning the table had it on "good authority that the delegates will be seated".

...

"Well, actually I think Obama is an amazing candidate and I just voted for him" and that I thought what they had just told me was not a fair way to deal with the issue.

They didn't take my coffee back - but you could tell they wanted to.

I wrote a letter to Howard Dean and Gov. Crist (like he cares) about the incident.

So, it doesn't convince me the Clinton camp cares about my vote to make noise about it now.  Ya'll should have done that last year when you had the chance.  In fact, since Clinton would have most likely carried the state regardless, it's even more offensive to me that her campaign treated us like we didn't matter in the first place.

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:50:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (1.66 / 3)

Very well stated.  

Hillary is into her 2012 strategy, I think everyone with any real understanding of the process recognizes that.  And so it is up to the Democratic Party to decided whether or not they want to concede 08 to the Republicans by letting Hillary continue her ugly spectacle any longer.  

They're frightened of the Clintons, that's obvious.  What's not obvious to me is WHY they are so frightened of the Clintons.  


"It's time to pass the baton to the next generation." Ken Jacobson, WA state senator.
by tibbs on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:26:40 PM EST

Your measured appraisal (2.00 / 1)

is what makes me return to MyDD.

Thanks for thinking things out in an honest and considerate way.


by bookish on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:34:55 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

No, the hatred of the Clintons, from Josh Marshall to Kos and his "she's no longer a Democrat" remarks today has gone completely out of control.

It has become totally clear to me that Obama supporters have just simply LOST IT. If they cared about winning in November they would not engage in the kind of scorched earth tactics against Clinton and her supporters. The constant screaming for her to get out of the race, the silence around the battering she has taken from the media, the sexist remarks, the hypocrisy around the casual disenfranchisement of two states that are necessary to win in November---there is no credibility on the Obama side anymore. Josh Marshall flushes his Social Security work down the toilet in order to follow Obama who wants to "fix Social Security". Ezra Klein irrationally backs an inferior health care plan, and when Elizabeth Edwards criticizes the inferior plan, you throw her on the trash heap, too. Everyone who is not on the Obama side is the enemy. It is another version of Bush.

Mark my words, we will lose in November. How in God's name do you expect to get Clinton voters to back your candidate after the way you have acted? Kos and Josh and Arianna and the rest of you will have achieved their goal of preventing Hillary from the nomination.

But you will have destroyed the party in the process. You cannot even see yourselves and how far out there you are anymore. It is truly the most disgusting thing I've seen in my lifetime as a Democrat. All objectivity is gone. It's more about Hillary than anything else now.

There is one thing for sure: Barack Obama will never set foot in the Oval Office as president of the United States. Your side has sewn so much hate and gone into so much denial about your candidate that you can't even see how obvious this is.


by cc on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:36:24 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Oh, please.

I can understand getting cranky with the "other team" - I'm an Obama supporter and I could go on all day.

But to deny that there has been any negative campaigning by "your team"?  Have you been out recently?  Read anything but FleaFlicker diaries this year?

I suppose the entire global media is a paid Obama support team, and not a single instance of reporting on the "Clinton Kitchen Sink" is true?

High Horse.  Don't ride them.

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:56:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Oh, please.

I can understand getting cranky with the "other team" - I'm an Obama supporter and I could go on all day.

But to deny that there has been any negative campaigning by "your team"?  Have you been out recently?  Read anything but FleaFlicker diaries this year?

I suppose the entire global media is a paid Obama support team, and not a single instance of reporting on the "Clinton Kitchen Sink" is true?

High Horse.  Don't ride them.

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:58:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Right on!  It's the Obama camp that's starting to crack.
They thought that Hillary would just go away, like a one-night stand, but she's proven more formidable and smarter than any of them.

Bill went to June in 1992.
Kennedy went to the convention in 1980 and helped Carter lose the election.

This is POLITICS people, get over yourselves.  You want change?  Hillary is change, Obama is change.  Either candidate can win in the general, but Hillary is the STRONGER candidate, from the General Election polls against McCain in key states.

You are so correct in your comments.  I'm sorry the Obama people are just whining a little too loud for the voices of reason to be heard.


by stefystef on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:21:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Sorry, Bill was leading massively by now.

Not saying it couldn't happen, but in 1992 Bill Clinton was actually the mathematical favorite by now.

You could, accurately, say he was in Senator Obama's position...


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:24:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She is a Democrat and he is a divider (2.00 / 2)


Landslide of lies
by engels on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:43:24 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)


by tabbycat in tenn on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:48:53 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I would love for Hillary to be VP but she's 60!  Her time is now!  Obama is only 47, he could have waited but he jumped in front of her and wrecked everything.  I knew 2 miniorities running simultaneously would be a disaster.  Blacks are pissed!  Whites are pissed!  All the democrats, including AA, would have solidified behind her!  Now if Obama becomes president, Hillary would have wait until she's 68 or 69.  That won't happen!  She will be too old!  So for me, its 2012!  


by WAREHOUSE553 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:52:25 PM EST

It's never anyone's "turn." (2.00 / 2)

Nobody ever earns the right to be president, and nobody gets a designated "turn" at it.  They're elected, it's not some bizarre form of nepotistic lottery (at least it's not supposed to be).  The Presidency of the United States is something that has never and will never be bestowed upon a "worthy" soul.  It's a station that even the best amongst us must strive to even be considered for.

Obama is the candidate for the moment.  His message is resonating and he's got massive amounts of grassroots support behind him.  The fact that he managed to do as well as he has given Clinton's massive starting advantages (name recognition, party support, existing media relations, etc) speaks volumes as to the power of his candidacy.


by Capt America on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:06:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's never anyone's "turn." (2.00 / 1)

"it's not some bizarre form of nepotistic lottery"

Tell that to John Quincy Adams and George W. Bush.  Thank goodness they were both so good...oh wait.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:14:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's never anyone's "turn." (2.00 / 2)

If his support is so "massive," then why isn't he already the nominee?  Hillary has massive support as well.  If she didn't, we would have crowned Obama long ago.  Clearly, the Democratic party voters are split between the two of them.


by Radiowalla on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:33:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's never anyone's "turn." (2.00 / 1)

Machine politics.  That's Clinton's base of support, and the reason the party as a whole hasn't moved towards Obama en masse.

She's in good with the old-school machine, he's picking up the new blood and activists.  She has next to no true grassroots support because it's always been a tertiary focus for her at best.  Obama's cultivated a relationship with the party activists and worked to build an organization that works with them in mind.

Where Obama has to start fresh in every state, Clinton has been able to piggyback off of the entrenched machinery.  He builds organizations, she uses those that are already in place.

The question we should be asking is if Clinton can't seal the deal with advantages like universal name recognition and the only Dem president in the last 20 years in her corner, how would she have managed in Obama's shoes?


by Capt America on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:42:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's a very simplistic way of (2.00 / 2)

dismissing all of her devoted followers who actually pull the lever for her.


by Radiowalla on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's a very simplistic way of (none / 0)

And that's a very simplistic way of dismissing my points.

I'm not saying she doesn't have a legitimate following within the Democratic party.  Obviously she does, or she would have been forced out of the race long ago, machine or no.

What I'm saying is that her campaign has put basically zero effort into building it's own, on-the-ground campaign machinery, instead concentrating it's resources on highly paid consultants and press handlers.  It's a stance she couldn't really have taken without having the last name "Clinton."


by Capt America on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:03:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry, but I beg to disagree. (2.00 / 2)

Surely you don't think that the "highly paid consultants and press handlers" delivered all those votes for her?  Surely you don't think all of her supporters are simply enamored with the Clinton brand?
This dismissive attitude towards her supporters is offensive and, dare I say, elitist.
by Radiowalla on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:14:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Again, dismissing me out of hand. (2.00 / 1)

She definitely has a following.  Her message resonates very well with a certain section of the Democratic electorate.  

That has nothing to do with the difference in the strategies of the two campaigns.  One is extremely top down, media centric and the other is very bottom up, organizing oriented.  

I'm not dismissing any voters here.  They all count the same.  It was merely an observation as to the merits of the differing campaign styles.

Maybe you need to turn down the righteous indignation settings on your browser or something.


by Capt America on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:06:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's never anyone's "turn." (2.00 / 2)

Hey Radio!

How's the gin?  (I could use one now, these fratricide debates take it out of me...).

No doubt many people support either candidate, but your comments go in both directions.  Even I thought the nomination was Senator Clinton's for the taking, and here we are still...

The point of the comment up two levels (and three, that started this sub-thread) is whether anyone "deserves" to be President of the United States.

The coment I just wrote (up two, take a left) I was serious about.  I hadn't really believed that anyone was going through all of this simply because they thought it was somebody's "turn" at President.  You could have the blessing of the Pope (just to be topical) and still have a chance in heck of winning the US Presidential Election.

It can't be that simple?  Please tell me it ain't so?

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:50:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Chris, mon cher ami, (2.00 / 1)

I have forsaken the gin for Makers Mark tonight.

Therefore, I cannot follow your directions ..."Up two, take a left"...

As for "deserving," this is a concept I totally reject in politics and in real life.  "Deserving" means nothing in this random world.


by Radiowalla on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:01:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Chris, mon cher ami, (2.00 / 1)

:~)

Amasignalo, Ihne Gwadenya!

(My Ahmhadic is rusty - and the language has 72 characters each with seven vowel variations, so it doesn't print well at the best of times, so maybe)

Danke sehr, mein Freunde!

(but, let's face it, German just ain't cozy...)

Merci, mon petite Pamplemousse!

ANYWAY, seconded.  It ain't Obama's to have because he deserves it, either.

One way or another we need to swing the pendulum left for a few years.  It's the American Way (and damn, but it works real well!).

-cheers!

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:11:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your ahmharic is irreproachable (2.00 / 0)

and your German is... zer gut.

But your pamplemousse should be "ma petite pamplemousse."  

I won't hold it against you, however, since you are completely on point about the pendulum and where we must swing it.

Cheers.


by Radiowalla on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:31:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But my Ruski is awful (none / 0)

Conjugate the Verb!

(or was that Conjugal with Verve?)

Never was good with words...

Love the history, love the diversity, love the culture, but damn I wish we could pick a human language.  It's like the Interenet with ModBus and Token Ring mixed in sometimes...

Could you imagine what it would be like if everyone could understand each other?  If we have this much trouble understanding each other in English, it shouldn't be so surprising the larger world issues..

BTW - John Edwards was just on Colbert - the guy is good!

-chris

Ja gabaru Pruski ochen plocho...


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:56:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But you ARE good with words! (none / 0)

English is fast becoming the indispensable lingua franca in this globalized world, but other languages have their own special richness and I hope we continue to value them and help them survive.

Mes hommages, etc.

ps : if you like John Edwards, you might enjoy this blog :

EENR which is a very friendly place populated by Edwards fans.


by Radiowalla on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:56:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

I hear you on the age math, but is that a reason to switch parties?

It's extremely unlikely that any given person will be elected president of the United States.  Regardless of their resume.

I wanted Ferraro to be VP when I was a teenager - the first woman Vice President, change the nation, right?  Well, it didn't happen.  Almost everyone who runs for president doesn't get eletcted...

Not to make too much of your comment, but you seem to have struck a chord.  Could all this simply be that so many people expected Senator Clinton to be elected that any other outcome is unacceptable?  It's been said a lot, but honestly I didn't really give it actually all that much credit.

Folks, I liked Obama years ago but didn't assume he could actually ever win the US Presidential Election.  It's astoundingly unlikely that any one candidate would.  If it's only about a candidate then there isn't much hope for your party.

I mean, the Right was foaming at the mouth about the off chance of McCain being the nominee, and now they are all behind him.  I can't believe that there are really that many Dems who are only interested in one candidate and have no interest in any issues.

You do all realize that a vote for McCain is a vote for Sean Hannity, the end of Roe-v-Wade, four more years of Iraq...?

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:39:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (1.00 / 1)

In 2012, if Hillary keeps pushing this to win now, she will be a pariah for having helped the Democrats to lose. She cannot win after pissing off half the party. Not when her likability ratings were already so low.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:48:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Don't know why this was troll-rated, it's something that she needs to understand right now. If she is seen as a divisive force in the party, she will be unable to bring it back together.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:07:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Look! An anti-McCain Diary! (2.00 / 2)

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/4/17/2054 13/087

I know this is a total change of pace, but there's a Republican nominee out there!

Quick!  The Red Coats are coming!  Everyone stop shooting your own feet and save your ammo for the bad guys!

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:02:49 PM EST

If (none / 0)

If this nomination process goes on much longer, we will end up with two Democratic Party, the Obama Democratic party and the Clinton Democratic Party, and neither Party will win the general election.
The Republicans want nothing more than for the Democratic Party to be spilt at the Denver convention.
My thoughts on McCain: I have no desire to let that idiot fulfill his desire to "Bomb Iran"
by Otaku Saru on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:09:03 PM EST

PA democratic debate in 1 minute. Hilarious vid (none / 0)

TseeBaeng


by TseeBaeng on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:16:08 PM EST

I agree with Jerome. (none / 0)

Do you read the comments?


by gotalife on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:25:54 PM EST

As you said before, there is a line. (1.00 / 1)

Barack Obama crossed that line in mid-2007.

A group of long-time loyal funders react adversely to the indecent treatment of their preferred candidate, and you interpret that as valid defense of the same indecent treatment.

This is all a wee bit daft.

Today, Obama gave Hillary the finger. That drove me to a decision I used to think would be exceedingly difficult and far-fetched. Now it's not.

If Obama is the nominee, I'll vote for McCain. Depending on his VP pick, I may do more than just vote.

And of course, it's all Hillary's fault ... right?


¡Si, soy PUMA!
by RonK Seattle on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:27:01 PM EST

Ah, "the finger"? (2.00 / 1)

OK, read any of my comments in this diary.

Are you serious that all you care about is your personal sense of indignation?

Supreme court doesn't mean anything to you?  Roe-v-Wade?  Iraq for another generation?  

Have any Democratic ideals at all, or are you just a personality fan?

Seriously.  Just wondering.

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:52:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You have no fucking idea. (none / 0)

And yes, I'm very aware of the consequences ... and will discuss them with at least one SuperD tomorrow.


¡Si, soy PUMA!
by RonK Seattle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:52:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't do it, Ron (2.00 / 1)

You will hate yourself in the morning.

And during the next 4 years.

I'm not one single bit happy with Obama, but if he is the nominee, I will vote for him, albeit reluctantly.

Frankly, I'm more worried about the Supreme Court than anything else.  We can't have any more right-wing troglodytes on this court!


by Radiowalla on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:54:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 0)

yeah, this idea that Obama supporters care more about the primary than the General is a bizarre one. All along, the Obama camp is the one that has been organized for the long haul, with a strategy that saw beyond Feb 5th and into the fall. It has truly been one of the great presidential campaigns of all time in terms of its ability to distill its message into terms that are understandable and present the message with consistency and style. I have always felt from the moment that Iowa went down the way it did that Obama was the candidate that would come out of this and we are almost at that point now.

Many Obama supporters here have tried to pivot to the GE and turn the fight to John McCain only to be pulled back into the primary muck by people calling us presumptious and arrogant etc. But its time for that folks. Time to rally around Obama and go get McCain. He has had a free ride and his favorability ratings show it. But once he is in a one on one with Obama, the shine will come off that apple.


by wasder on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:43:10 PM EST

Support your person for now, but the GE is soon (none / 0)

No reason to ask people to give up on Hillary, but burning the house down makes no sense.

Folks in the Clinton camp do need to adjust to the possibility that the land doesn't shift dramatically (that is the requirement).  Even (sigh) us on the Obama side need to keep a rational mind in case there is a multiple Hail-Mary win by the Clinton camp.

One way or another:  no more Republican appointed Supreme Court judges for now.

And let's get Iraq the fuck over with...


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:22:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Also I have to say that the line she crossed for me was with the Ayers thing. There was just no need for her to go there. She would have looked so much better if she had taken the high road and let Steph and Gibson attack him with specious crap. But she had to pile on and that particular one is such a load of garbage. She knows very well that Ayers is a non issue dredged up from who knows where. I have less of a problem with her commenting about the bitter comments or other things but to go forward and insinuate stuff about Ayers that went farther than what the moderators were asking was beyond the pale. And tossing Farrakhan in to the Wright discussion. These things don't make her not a democrat but they certainly don't make her look like a democrat that has the teams best interests in mind.


by wasder on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:46:32 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 0)

Look how long this race has remained essentially static with Obama in a near stranglehold on the nomination. Here is a diary I wrote in FEB for crying out loud!

MyDD must change its tone

by wasder, Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 12:48:41 PM EST

I am so disheartened by the state of this blog right now. We have an amazingly strong candidate preparing to win the Democratic Nomination, a dynamic, forward thinking leader who is bringing untold thousands of new Democratic voters into the process and day after day we are treated to featured diaries tearing him down in a base and unpleasant way. It is obviously one thing to pick a horse in the race and fair enough to do so, but when will enough be enough. At this point if Hillary wins the nomination it will come through means so controversial that it will tear the party apart. Please, I am begging you guys in leadership on this blog, change the tone of this blog. Make it more respectful towards Obama and towards the process overall. Make it a place where people can discuss the ins and outs of how to get a democrat elected in November, not a place where we needlessly weaken our almost certain general election candidate. Anyone who agrees please respond and forward and if you don't agree let me know (try to be respectful--I know that is a stretch right now). LEts get it together people!!!!


by wasder on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:51:28 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Why don't we make it more respectful to Hillary?  Oh, we can't do that.  It doesn't fit into the master plan of the so-called progressive left.

Should we all sing Kumbaya?  The Republicans are scared of Hillary, not Obama.  But you are falling into their trap, real easy.


by stefystef on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:15:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 0)

Yup, they're scared. They're so very scared of Clinton that they're doing absolutely everything in their power to make sure she's the nominee. Limbaugh pushing "vote Hillary", Hannity attacking Obama nonstop, Scaife praising Clinton and bashing Obama, and on and on... a nonstop wave of Obama-bashing Hillary-praising commentary from the Republicans.

Wow. If they're that stupid that they're going all-out to make the candidate they're terrified of the nominee, I guess we'll have zero trouble with them from now on. I mean, it'd take a bunch of absolute boneheads who can't even dream of knowing how to play politics to do something that stupid...

... oh. I guess they're not so scared of her after all.


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:02:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Yup, they're scared. They're so very scared of Clinton that they're doing absolutely everything in their power to make sure she's the nominee. Limbaugh pushing "vote Hillary", Hannity attacking Obama nonstop, Scaife praising Clinton and bashing Obama, and on and on... a nonstop wave of Obama-bashing Hillary-praising commentary from the Republicans.

Wow. If they're that stupid that they're going all-out to make the candidate they're terrified of the nominee, I guess we'll have zero trouble with them from now on. I mean, it'd take a bunch of absolute boneheads who can't even dream of knowing how to play politics to do something that stupid...

... oh. I guess they're not so scared of her after all.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:58:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Wolf gets a zero from me for pure vitriol.

You're just a little skittish.  Not voting McCain by any chance, are you?

"They"?  Who, like "those damn democrats"?

Umm, this is a dem site..

Are you for or against:

Roe-v-Wade?

Four (or 100) more years of Iraq?

Forty years of Far Right Dominated Supreme Court?

Just checking - you are a dem, or at least agree with Democrat ideals, right?


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:16:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Right you are.  That's what Obama supporters have been so outraged by.  How can any Democrat justify what Hillary has done?  This was her election to loose.  And  loose it she did with arrogance, poor strategy and a very divisive campaign


by Annabella on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:54:02 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

You know what?  No wonder so many people left the Democratic Party.  Some of you act like wimps.

Hillary has not torn down the Democratic Party.  She is pursuing the Presidency against a media, a party and a liberal hierarchy who are too afraid to get dirty and fight for this country.  That's why Bush won in 2000 and 2004, and that's why McCain will win in November.

Instead of trying to protect Obama like he's a child, the Democrats need to choice the candidate who has the experience, strength and bipartisan experience to get real change going in this country.

Obama's fancy words will not impress the Republicans.  And that has nothing to do with Hillary.  Obama shows is weakness and it's Hillary's fault?  Like always, blame the woman for the problems.  That started in the Garden of Eden and women have been getting the blame ever since.

Stop whining, gentlemen.  The Republicans aren't.


by stefystef on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:11:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I'm guessing that once Obama is nominated this place will empty out except for a handful of die-hard haters who will stick around to gnaw on the bones of their bitterness.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:08:18 PM EST

Don't lose hope, there are cool Clintonians, too (none / 0)

Radiowalla, for one, I know is perfectly sane.

I met a Republican for Clinton (!) two weeks ago.  Turned out he wasn't barking mad, either (though he may now be a Rep for Obama... ;~)


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:13:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't lose hope, (none / 0)

I'm sure the vast majority of clinton fans are cool (I used to be one myself, after all).

I just don't see how the rump of pure Obama haters who exemplify this website are ever going to find their way back into the mainstream of the party once it is finally exemplified by Obama instead of the Clintons.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:18:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Uhg (none / 0)

So
Is This a Pro-Blue site any more?

Do we want an election that turns blue?
I am starting to doubt it.

Folks like Jerome are makeing it poisonous to be a dem.

Rove and the GOP are lauging all the way to white house...


by gil44 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:10:35 PM EST

Re: Uhg (none / 0)

i agree with you regarding the poisonous remarks. Although I have no doubt that Todd or Jonathan have never crossed that line once.

I have had major problems with Todd's analysis in the past but he's cleaned it up quite a good bit since Hillary's horrible March (a bit of humility can go a long way me thinks). Best yet, he's been able to acknowledge when Hillary's campaign goes over the top (well, sometimes which is better then most partisans).


!
by alex100 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:22:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Uhg (2.00 / 0)

That's just profoundly crazy. Jerome is, like so many of us, fighting to keep the Dem party big-tent. We don't want to be kicked out of the party we've slaved over for decades by a bunch of trendy It-folk. Notice no one over here is calling for your ouster. We're just pleading for common sense, and an end to the damned hyperbole.


Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are. - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
by anna belle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:08:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

i hate to even have to say this but Jonathan is head and shoulders above the other guys in terms of formulating his blog entries (although I do appreciate Todd's improvements).  

and speaking about the "other guys", how about a female voice on the front page of MyDD to diversify it a bit more?


!
by alex100 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:16:54 PM EST

Thank You (none / 0)

Needed Diary.


by mady on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:31:42 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Thank you for that post!


by Kiku on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:09:28 AM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)


Jonathan, you keep on repeating (and problematically making your pro-Obama argument reliant on) the canard much championed in the Obama campaign that the Clintons were the reason for the 1994 losses in Congress and atrophy of the Party in the South and Midwest.  That just isn't the case.  It is moderate-conservative Southern/Midwestern Democrats, as such, engaged in revisionism.

Much of the reason I don't want Obama as nominee is that I don't want that crowd getting any level of control of the Party again for a long time.

The 1994 elections had a normal midterm turnout rate for Republicans.  Enough partisan Democrats stayed home to tip the election.  Why?  Because the conservative faction of the Party (read: old white male Senators and Congressmen from the South and Midwest) that ran things chickened out on just about everything Clinton had run on (with their agreement, at the time) after the skin-of-their-teeth tax hike/budget bill passage in April 1993.  (The Southerners mostly voted against it.)  Healthcare reform was the biggest single item they just refused to touch.  They caved to the Republican version of the 1994 crime bill in spectacular fashion.  About the only accomplishment worthy of mention after the 1993 budget bill is that the Senate somehow did let Ginsberg and Breyer on the Supreme Court.

Truth is that the conservative/"moderate" wing of the Party didn't want to do anything painful and was scared to death of Gingrich and his Republicans.  It's still pretty much the same story now.  They're poison to any serious effort at implementation of a Democratic agenda.


by killjoy on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:21:02 AM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

this is lazy logic and lazy research as well. It is getting tiresome to respond to these nonsensical arguments everywhere in the blogosphere, in particular here at myDD where arguments are a lot more reasoned and logical in general except when the DKOS morons invade and create brain-dead recommended diaries.

First of all as someone documented here, the first character assault in this dem race came from Obama on clinton not the other way. This started way back in the fall of last year, when Obama was indicating how clinton had no "judgement" and had a lot of "baggage"-- code for whitewater and the other repub nonsense and of course his surrogates were constantly calling her "divisive". Somebody with an iota of intelligence has to clue me in as to how any of this nonsense is issue/policy criticism and hence positive campaigning. This was when Hillary was 20 points ahead of obama and didnt feel the need to respond to Obama's character or judgement or other such non-policy attacks that Obama or his surrogates and not to mention his campaign (almost every week) was engaging in pretty regularly. On top of all this, Obama and his surrogates have been consistently been putting down achievements of clinton presidency including when he praised Repubs/Reagan <as change agents in a way that bill clinton was not>. This was clearly to please the NV newspaper board for their endorsement and just recently he said the PA blue collar workers were losing jobs thru bush and clinton years which is a big fat lie, if you care to look into the BLS statistics.
If you had called Obama on these instances of either dissing the clinton years or outright lying about clinton economics or when he was clearly impugning Hillary's characters you would have an iota of credibility in Hillary questioning obama on his judgement on wright or other things like bittergate. They managed to turn everything clintons or their surrogates said about Obama into racial comments just in time for SC primary, to peel off AA votes from the clintons who were highly likedly by the AA community just up until then. Of course the racism things didnt come into play before Iowa or NH, because that might not get him the Caucasian votes he needs. So the chorus of racism accusations start right after NV. You cant possibly argue all of this is somehow unifying the party and respectful of fellow democrats and then cry wolf when obama is under fire for his "judgements".

If there were lines to cross, go ahead and examine to see if the lines were crossed last fall when Hillary was 20 points ahead and later just in time for AA dominated primaries. What you will find is ample evidence that lines were crossed plenty of times by someone not named Hillary or Bill or their supporters. Yet the entire press and blogosphere remains silent and not to mention the fact that all of them joined the chorus to berate clintons and their supporters as racists. This is the same clintons until yesterday the AA community revered and considered Bill as their first "black" president. If crossing such outrageous lines to call the clintons racits, I dont see how questioning the "judgment" of obama on his inability to confront the hate spewing, HIV conspiracy mongering lunatic mentor, is crossing the line. I know the blogosphere has CDS and is not even pretending to be impartial. But this kind of inane logically vacuous arguments are getting old and pretty transparent.

also the argument on Obama's inevitability is as much nonsensical as other arguments are. Yes he is ahead by 1% in pop vote, perhpas 8% or so in delegate count. But that is among roughly 25million votes that have been cost so far. So you know what that amounts to. What is clear is that Obama is going to have win the "illegitimate" way just as much as clinton is except by a smaller margin of superdelegates. That by no means is any more legitimate and spells inevitability. Like I argued the other day if superdelegates were to vote only based on who has the highest popular vote, then it makes absolutely no sense to have superdelegates. It makes no sense for yet another set of middlemen to endorse the obvious and they were created for the very reason that they would play an independent role, not just to echo the primary results. When all is said and done Obama would barely have a pluarality of votes ahead of clinton, essentially a tie between the two.  Yes we all understand that he has a higher probability of winning this thing than Clinton. Thats obvious. But you are pulling 3:1 out of your hat. No one knows what the probabilities really are. So all this 3:1 talk is just .


by pdxarch on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:30:08 AM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

To quote Robert Reich, a former Hillary Clinton supporter and former Labor Secretary under Bill Clinton, who is now endorsing Barack Obama:

"I saw the ads" -- the negative man-on-street commercials that the Clinton campaign put up in Pennsylvania in the wake of Obama's bitter/cling comments a week ago -- "and I was appalled, frankly. I thought it represented the nadir of mean-spirited, negative politics. And also of the politics of distraction, of gotcha politics. It's the worst of all worlds. We have three terrible traditions that we've developed in American campaigns. One is outright meanness and negativity. The second is taking out of context something your opponent said, maybe inartfully, and blowing it up into something your opponent doesn't possibly believe and doesn't possibly represent. And third is a kind of tradition of distraction, of getting off the big subject with sideshows that have nothing to do with what matters. And these three aspects of the old politics I've seen growing in Hillary's campaign. And I've come to the point, after seeing those ads, where I can't in good conscience not say out loud what I believe about who should be president. Those ads are nothing but Republicanism. They're lending legitimacy to a Republican message that's wrong to begin with, and they harken back to the past 20 years of demagoguery on guns and religion. It's old politics at its worst -- and old Republican politics, not even old Democratic politics. It's just so deeply cynical."

Let the demonization begin - Is Reich Judas, or Satan himself? And let the denials begin that Hillary has nothing to answer for with her destructive tactics.

Seriously, I'd much rather we were running against  Stainless St John McCain right now rather than indulging the current nonsense. If Hillary Clinton is not able to win PA by more than 10 points, she should withdraw and wholeheartedly throw her support to Barack Obama immediately. She continues to run up her own negatives with every day she continues these tactics -- it's a murder/suicide pact she's making, which serves no one but John McCain.

If she can win PA by the 10+ points she started with, then fine -- take it all the through the last primary vote (but no longer than that). Otherwise, it's time to bow out after PA.


by DavidW in SF on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 04:10:31 AM EST

Bill Clinton brought us the most successful (none / 0)

Democratic administration in my lifetime and Obama says the things he says about it?  BTD is right on and you are way off and not helping Obama one iota with the type of support you give to him!


by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:37:51 AM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

We need a democrat victory now.  There has been too much violence to the Constitution, too many blurry boundaries between big business and government, and too many inroads into social protections that have caused our nation to lose ground, our people to miss opportunities and our reputation to suffer.

That is the priority above all.


by URKnot on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:01:01 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Congrats, Jon. An amazing load of b.s. and projection, but a remarkably accurate toeing of the Obama party line.

If the big O wins now, he loses later. It's painfully obvious.


by dark1p on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 05:16:52 PM EST


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