Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down

Reading Jerome's post this afternoon, I must respectfully, though strongly, disagree with the sentiment he passes along from Big Tent Democrat that Obama supporters' "hatred of Bill and Hillary Clinton has become more important to them than Obama's chances of winning in November."

Listening to part of last night's debate and catching some of the highlights (or lowlights, depending on your point of view), I wouldn't use the words of a Daily Kos commenter Markos points to, namely that the commenter no longer considers Hillary Clinton  a Democrat as a result of her use of right wing driven attacks against Barack Obama.

What I would say, however, is this: Clinton is not beyond reproach. She isn't above criticism. The Clintons no doubt did a lot of good for the party, helping capitalize on voters' sentiments to secure a victory in the 1992 presidential election -- the Democrats' first general election win in 16 years. And although the party lost its 40-year majority in the House, its 34-of-40-year majority in the Senate, and much more lower down the ticket on their watch -- in short, in many ways the party shrunk and atrophied during this period -- the party was nearly able to retake the Congress and hold on to the White House when they left office at the end of the millennium. What's more, the Clinton campaign apparatus, once out of power this decade, helped build and fund major chunks of what is now the progressive establishment that was so long missing (with, for instance, Bill Clinton chief of staff John Podesta founding the Center for American Progress).

However, even as the Clinton's earned a deal of goodwill, they did not earn so much that they could subsequently do things that could detrimentally affect the party down the line. For instance, a few weeks ago I noted that key Clinton supporters -- many of the bundlers funding her campaign -- began threatening to cut of funding for the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. In response, grassroots supporters and big dollar contributers of Barack Obama pledged to step up on behalf of the committee tasked with ensuring that there is a Democratic majority in the U.S. House of Representatives during the 111th Congress. Indeed, the DCCC pulled in more than $10 million in March, a significant portion of which came from the fact that the committee more than tripled its grassroots fundraising from the first quarter of 2007 to the first quarter of 2008.

But it goes beyond that as well. No one faults Clinton for running a strenuous campaign for the nomination. However, there are lines in politics. And when a race gets to the point where one candidate is much more likely to secure the nomination than the other (I'm talking greater than 3:1), the candidate less likely to win the nomination must begin to seriously think about the type of campaign that he or she is willing to wage and, moreover, if that campaign will hurt the party in the long run.

There is no question that if Obama is the nominee, the Republicans will throw everything, including the kitchen sink at him -- just as they would not hesitate to mercilessly attack Clinton. Having some of these attacks played out during the primary campaign may limit their subsequent impact, particularly if the candidate being attacked is able to successfully push back.

Nevertheless, as I said before, there is a line. That line is crossed when the attacks are no longer simply mentions of the very real fact that the Democratic nominee is going to be hit by the Republicans, but go beyond that to validations of the Republican attacks. For instance, when Bill Clinton goes out and concedes the issue of national security to John McCain and tacitly attacks Obama on the same issue -- in a way that could be subsequently used in a general election, regardless of whether Obama or Hillary Clinton is the Democratic nominee -- that's not building up the party, it's tearing it down. When Hillary Clinton runs an overwhelmingly negative campaign against Obama in a way that hurts her standing with the American people at least as much as it does his (her favorable/unfavorable spread is now 44 percent/54 percent, according to Washington Post/ABC News polling, down from 58 percent/40 percent just three months ago), that doesn't build up the party, it tears it down. And when Clinton goes down in the gutter for the first 45 minutes of what was likely the final Democratic debate, that doesn't build up the party, it tears it down.

So I would not question whether or not Hillary Clinton is a Democrat. But at the same time, I wouldn't by any means agree with the proposition that Obama supporters care more about their hatred of the Clintons than they do about electing Obama in November. Hoping for a unified party, one in which the part of the party leadership does not try to cut down another part of the party leadership to the detriment of the party as a whole, is not an ignoble goal.



Display:


Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Very nice diary. Thanks.


by Zoey on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:22:23 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Agreed... that was a good read...


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:24:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 6)

I think it tears down the Party to run a candidate who has no qualifications in national security, has little record as a legislator, is unknown to the voters, has numerous noxious long term associations with people who will turn off a majority of American voters, and cannot counterbalance the toxicity of those associations with any qualifications and a relationship of trust with voters.

To blame Clinton for pointing out the very real weaknesses in this candidate is one sided at best. He is an extremely weak candidate who's run for the nomination is premature, and it is his responsibility for deciding to put the party through this. He could only win by destroying Clinton, and it has partially worked.

His campaign playing the race card and accusing the Clintons and their supporters of the radioactive charge of racism (and continuing to accuse working class voters of racism for not voting for him) is the most divisive and destructive campaign tactic I can think of.

I believe when the history of this campaign is written about the demise of the Democratic Party chances in this election it will be revealed how damaging Obama's tactics have been.


by 07rescue on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:39:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

If all of what you said is true, why is he able to beat Clinton? And what does that say about whether SHE should have run?


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:42:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 3)

I agree... the millions of people who voted for either of them likely do not view them as "weak"...


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:55:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course, they will flame me for saying this.. (1.00 / 3)

but these are the tactics of fascism..

Our generation doesn't know much about it, but its always been out there, its a very old form of government that tries to palm itself off as revolutionary, but basically its reactionary, because its main interest is preserving the status quo in the face of pressures that threaten it.

Thats Obama's big lie... IMO.

How stupid we are..


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

90% of the black vote


by WAREHOUSE553 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:46:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

That's not true. She is enormously unpopular with a lot of people and always has been. She should have expected a backlash and an uphill battle to win people over. Because she ignored that problem, she will ultimately lose.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:57:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why? (2.00 / 1)

Why is Hillary Clinton 'unpopular' ?

I just don't understand that - what people have brought up as reasons to hate her (!!!) just doesn't add up for me.  

My reasons for supporting her are basic, we are
facing changes that threaten the stability that we all grew up with and the philosophy of the right seems willing, glad even, to just steal our country out from under us (although they would say that they owned it all along.. I suppose..)

There doesn't seem like there is that much room here for many of us.. and many of Obama's supporters are just as threatened. So why do they gravitate to this man whose platform is really not one of change, except in a superficial way? And then try to put down the people who actually DO care about all of us?


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:30:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (none / 0)

She's unpopular because she does things like completely ignore the fact that she's unpopular and run for President anyway. Then completely forget about trying to win people over and just act like she's got it locked up.

The primary thing Obama does that she doesn't do is address things directly and openly. Obama strikes at the heart of a controversy and doesn't hold back or speak in platitudes. And if Hillary did that too, everyone in the country would be just as nuts about her as you are. But since she doesn't, it comes across as dishonest and constant spin. And she's not that great at spinning.

A big problem is that she's running Bill Clinton's campaign style without having his charisma. She should have started from scratch.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (none / 0)

"She's unpopular because she does things like completely ignore the fact that she's unpopular and run for President anyway." - You just said she's unpopular because she's unpopular. That's an attitude I'm hearing to much of these days: if we keep saying it, it must be true!
by Apostle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:24:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (none / 0)

No, not that, I'm saying she's unpopular because she does not seem to care whether people trust her. Perhaps that is the best strategy in real life, but when you're running for office, you have to make people understand you are willing to listen to them, and when they say they don't trust you, you have to understand why and try to make them trust you by being honest and dropping the bs (or at least making people think you have dropped it).

Republicans have spent 16 years building an image of Hillary in people's minds. She needed to change that image and redefine it. But the kind of campaign she ran was not built on reintroducing people to Hillary, it was built to run on the image she had. It was ultimately a failing strategy, because while she had a formidable base, she thought that was enough. And ignoring so many people, she wound up falling behind early and never caught up.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:06:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

So who are you voting for in the fall?


Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!
by fwiffo3 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:43:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree (1.66 / 6)

Obama's tactics of calling "racism" against someone who has worked for Democrats and therefore civil rights for many years has been very destructive to the Democratic party.

I have no hopes of the Democrats winning this upcoming election.  I've given up...partly because I know how passionate I feel about the terrible tactics of Obama's "team"...so I know that others feel as passionate...what hope is there of coming together?  absolutely none.


I am sick of the disrespect shown to Sen.Clinton by many on Dailykos, and now, too often, here. You aren't winning hearts and minds.
by SoCalVet on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:45:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree (none / 0)

Don't let the door hit you on the way out...


by Rockville Liberal on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:50:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree (2.00 / 2)

Te calls of sexism against anyone who has opposed Hilary would have the same effect...


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:23:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree (2.00 / 2)

Like Clinton calling sexism (the ol'e boys club, I don't remember many black guys in that group BTW) when she does poorly?

Thanks for proving the diarists point.


by IowaMike on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:24:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

Agreed. "Democratic nominee is going to be hit by the Republicans, but go beyond that to validations of the Republican attacks. For instance...

when Obama attacks Hillary for her lack of honesty, as Bradley did to Gore, which was then THE Repub talking point in the GE

when Obama calls her Annie Oakley, rendering her gun  control stance subject to ridicule, as Repubs will undoubtedly do

when Obama reminds us of her baking cookies, which raises her lack of "traditional values" , which the Repubs will also pick up on.

You're absolutely right, Singer.  You've just got the wrong candidate.


by desert dawg on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:03:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

YEAH!

Its not like Republicans have ever attacked a Democratic candidate for being a liberal elitist.  Hillary should not be criticized for attacking Obama for that.

He's got completely the wrong candidate.

</sarcasm>


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:17:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Her honesty, like her finally admitting that she said something that she knew was not true last night in the debate. She hit herself there.


by IowaMike on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:25:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Do you honestly believe that, if Obama gets the nomination, we will not see, not only the 3am ad pretty much verbatim with MCCain at the end rather than Hillary, but Hillary Clinton herself talking about the CIC threshold and how she and McCain have crossed it but Obama has not verbatim as well in Republican advertisements this year...?


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:26:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 3)

No qualifications in national security?  Little legislative record?  Unknown?  Irrational hatred by the other party?

Oh...you mean like some guy named Clinton in 1992?  Man, thank goodness we didn't nominate him, I bet he wouldn't have had a chance to ever win.  And if he somehow did, he would have been a terrible president.  Whew...dodged a bullet there.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:15:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Bill Clinton had no legislative record, but a 12-year executive record. Bill Clinton had 12 years as governor, 2 years as attorney general, and got elected statewide 6 times.

This year we'll see the first US senator elected president since Kennedy (8 years US senator, 6 years US congressman, 5 statewide elections).

We'll either have Obama (4 years US senator, 8 years state senator), Clinton (8 years US senator), or McCain (22 years US senator, 4 years US congressman).

For however it counts as political experience, Clinton also has 8 years as US 1st lady & 12 years as state 1st lady.


by anIndependent on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 05:30:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I can't believe that we've come to this point.  After months of Obama's people bashing the Clintons, Hillary's unfavorables are way up.  The more we learn about Obama, the more his unfavorables go up.  Now we're stuck with two candidates, neither of whom can win.  

Kudos to my party.  We've totally blown it again.  Obama will win the nomination and lose the election in a spectacular fashion.  His supporters will scream racism, and generally go nuts, doing even more damage to our party.  

We're screwed.  


by SueBee on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:20:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Sounds just like Bill Clinton in the 90's.

But Obama has amazing legislation successes.

http://obamarecord.blogspot.com


by Kiku on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:12:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I give up! (1.00 / 4)

If HRC is not the candidate, it's all yours.  And, although I suspect that BO will lose the GE, if he wins, he's all yours.

And then in 4 years we can all come back together to reclaim the country with experience and intelligence and have this "great change" behind us.  

It will not happen.  But, it's all yours.

Good bye.


by CoyoteCreek on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:58:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I give up! (2.00 / 2)

I hate to be the harbinger, but if Hillary doesn't win now, she isn't going to win in 2012, when she's 4 years older and the 1990s are that much further in the past.  I suspect she knows this and that's why she continues to fight so hard.  I can't blame her for that.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:17:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I give up! (2.00 / 3)

If she can't beat an inexperienced senator from Illinois, how can she beat a more experienced than her war hero?

She has run a lousy campaign.

I will work my butt off for whomever wins. I don't believe in waiting for tomorrow, I believe in going now. Even if that means I lose my guy (Edwards).


by IowaMike on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:29:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I give up! (none / 0)

This is THE salient point.

If she's so spectacularly amazing, possessing such awe-inspiring intellect, so conversant in the important issues of the day, has her finger so on the pulse of rank-and-file blue collar Americans--

--why is she losing so many states, why is she behind in the popular vote, why is she facing such a significant pledged delegate deficit?

PLEASE explain this unprecedented phenomenon to me, that the candidate who lost should have won because they were superior.

In elections, as we all know, Votes > ALL.

(FL in 2000 notwithstanding...)


by Ray in AK on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:18:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I give up! (none / 0)

You're right you know. If she doesn't beat Obama, she can't beat McCain.
by Apostle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:27:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I give up! (none / 0)

If HRC does not get the nomination, then it's all  yours.  And your responsibility.

I do not believe that BO will win the GE.  But if he doesn, I hope that all of your dreams come true. I believe that, four years from now, the Democratic Party will be faced with re-building itself, again.

I wish you luck.

It will not be a pretty picture.

Good-bye.  My heart is breaking for this country.


by CoyoteCreek on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:08:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I give up! (2.00 / 2)

I don't understand here...  you are leaving of your own volition you say if Clinton loses the primary...  but then you say your heart is breaking...?

Who is it that is breaking your heart but you...?  This is your decision.  I would like party unity but realize that is not my call... everyone makes their own decisions in this world.  If you opt out of the election or the party because Hillary lost, that is your decision, but I disagree with your idea that it is somehow on someone else.  You own your decisions.


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:43:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Crossing the Line (none / 0)

Who crossed the line?
Check here.

by gaf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:28:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Condemn Markos's comments or say nothing (2.00 / 1)

That is what you should have done...how nice of you to agree that Hillary Clinton is a Democrat.

But you are wrong....

Barack Obama has run a  relentlessly negative campaign against her since the fall. He falsely says something ok at a debate and then his campaign sends out lying emails filled with stilettos.  Every day he accuses her of lying.

Tearing the party apart is something that can now be laid on the door of rash,vicious bloggers and those who are so blinded that they can not see what's on front of them.

Obama has said nice things during this campaign about McCain...is he tearing the party down?  Of course not you think...he's above reproach.

you think you are being graciousness....Graciousness like this only makes those to whom you are addressing this even angrier.


by debcoop on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:34:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Condemn Markos's comments or say nothing (none / 0)

When has he said nice things about McCain...?


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:44:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

It's Armando who made the comment cited by Jerome?  Actually, that explains things.


by rfahey22 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:23:55 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Jerome cited Armando citing Kos, citing a commentator is what I think happened.

You know, I was about to relate a personal story about the only Armando I knew, the husband of my aunt who has since passed on but I'm sure it would get me banned so let's just move on!

Also, thanks Jonathan, you are the reason I continue to put myself through the pain of going to MyDD's hysterics.


by MNPundit on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:41:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My dear friend just hypocrisy (1.80 / 10)

When Obama Supporters were calling Bill Racist, when Obama was
calling Clinton what sort of campaign Obama running?  You only get the treatment that you mete out to others. Now, please stop whining. Why is it that Clinton has to think about party unity
and not Obama? Sounds like double standards.
by ann0nymous on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:25:25 PM EST

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (none / 0)

Obama never called anyone a racist (though I know I did) nor did he ever say certain states or voting groups were unimportant.  


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:29:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (2.00 / 2)

Do you think we are stupid?


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:41:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (1.00 / 1)

No, the question is do you think we are stupid? I'm talking about black people. For the last 40 years the democrats apparently have.

NO MORE.


by regina1983 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:43:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

OMG, here we go again: (2.00 / 3)

If you don't support Obama, you are against "black people"?

Jeebus Christo.  

This is what is destroying the Democratic Party.


I am sick of the disrespect shown to Sen.Clinton by many on Dailykos, and now, too often, here. You aren't winning hearts and minds.
by SoCalVet on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:47:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG, here we go again: (none / 0)

Actually, I put it about in line with the quote "angry women" end quote... substitute those words n that line and you get the same result.


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:56:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (1.00 / 1)

I think a more appropriate question is do you think us black people are stupid


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:14:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (none / 0)

Please provide evidence that Obama HIMSELF called or insinuated that Hillary was a racist--not a campaign staffer or a surrogate.  I can point to many instances where Hillary has insinuated HERSELF that Obama and his supporters were sexist.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:23:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (2.00 / 2)

Ok, his "campaign" did. And he stood by and said nothing until confronted by his campaign memo on national television. Even after that, he went before southern AA crowds and told them the Clintons were trying to hoodwink and bamboozle them and were doing the okie doke.

So it is a distinction without a difference. He conspired to call them racists. How is that?


by ineedalife on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:04:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (none / 0)

the memo said they were racist?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:14:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (1.66 / 3)

oh yeah....never said voters were unimportant

except when squelching Michigan and Florida revotes....yeah THOSE unimportant voters.....


by sas on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:04:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (none / 0)

what a powerful man he must be


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:15:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (none / 0)

They must have strong juju!


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:46:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (2.00 / 1)

It wasn't magic nor was it simple... nor was it Obama...

This decision was made between the DNC and the states...


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:48:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (2.00 / 3)

Or it's just that you know they're Obama hit pieces that ignore every piece of evidence.


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:41:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (2.00 / 1)

I know, how dare he unilaterally force those states to challenge the Democratic Party rules to see if they could get away with going first?  I mean, honestly.  The nerve of him.

Oh...wait...he wasn't involved in that decision?  Oh, my bad.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:20:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (none / 0)

Wow...how does Hillary get by without a lawyer?  Man, that's such an unfair advantage to be able to hire a lawyer.  

Oh wait...she has a whole team of them too?  Huh...well, there goes that argument.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:16:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (2.00 / 1)

An "attack dog lawyer" is now to blame?  Hilarious.  I'm in litigation, I write memos, and states do not cower in fear of me.  I wish I had those supernatural powers - it would be quite lucrative.


by rfahey22 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:08:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (2.00 / 2)

I love the mystic mind-powers argument. Obama magically caused Florida and Michigan to hold their votes at a time when they weren't allowed to be Democratic party rules? He caused all the candidates to pledge not to participate? Put the words in Clinton's mouth that the results would not count? Caused her to insist for six weeks that revotes weren't acceptable because results from undemocratic elections that fail to meet international standards should be counted? Magically caused the Republicans in Michigan to block a revote?

Or are you going to pull out the amazing SuperLawyer, who's more powerful than state governments, legislatures, or anything else, and has the magic power to block revotes?

Try to be at least mildly honest for a moment. Given the choice between 1) Michigan Republicans, who made it clear they didn't want a revote, wanted to throw a monkey-wrench into the Democratic party, and used their power to block a revote and do just that, smearing Obama in the process, or 2) Amazing SuperLawyer who's got more authority in Michigan than the legislature, which really makes more sense?

There are so, so many people to blame for the mess in Michigan and Florida that you've got to go way, way down the list, and pass Clinton along the way, to get to Obama And His Amazing SuperLawyer.


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:51:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (none / 0)

Name once when Obama called the Clintons racist.  Once.


by mikeinsf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:19:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (none / 0)

Give me a freaking break.  It was Axlerod's rovian plan all along and only a naive voter couldn't get it.  "Hit them in their strong points' is Karl Roves MAIN strategy.
Bill and Hillary Clinton were respected and embraced in the African American community.  And Axlerod knew that in order to beat Hillary he had to destroy her credibility with that community.  The Obama campaing has been race baiting to achieve that from day 1.  Everything and anything anyone in the Clinton campaign says or does is labeled racist.  Axlerod succeeded and if that makes Obama folks proud, that is sad.  One only had to read and know or have lived history to KNOW that despite their flaws the one thing the Clintons are not is racist.
by Jjc2008 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:15:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My dear friend just hypocrisy (2.00 / 1)

and did Obama call Clinton a racist?  Did any Obama Surrogates call Clinton a racist?  There are angry spiteful insulting cheerleaders on both sides, but that's a reflection of their own shortcomings, not the qualities of the person they support.

The Clintons are doing things to "poison the well".  Them.  Themselves.  Not supporters or surrogates.


by DawnG on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:38:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thank you (none / 0)

well said


by mikeinsf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:26:38 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (1.60 / 5)

Obama is not up 3:1

If Florida and Michigan count he isn't even up.

Why can't we follow the rules rather than trying to change them midstream to help Obama?


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:26:44 PM EST

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

3 to 1 odds...


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:29:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 4)

3:1 odds fed to us from MSNBC?

3:1 odds fed to us by Dean?

What matters is who the super's favor.

Thats not a statistical thing.

If they all love Hillary OR Florida and Michigan count as cast then its 100% for her

If enough love Obama AND he keeps Florida and Michigan off the record than its 100% for him

There is no 3 to 1 here.

Just propaganda.


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:43:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (1.00 / 4)

AND DO THE MATH!!!!

The numbers don't lie. What is wrong with you. Ignore all of the bullshit and do the damn math.

Hell, if you are too lazy to get a piece of paper and a pencil you can go online and google delegate count.  It is literally impossible for her to become the nominee.


by regina1983 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:45:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (2.00 / 1)

You are wrong there little lotus blossom.....


by sas on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:06:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Calm down (2.00 / 2)

If it is as you say, then let  the process run its course. But deep down you know it isn't.

If the schedule had been different and the states left were the eleven Obama ran in Feb., he would be trailing and the chorus would be calling for him to do the math and get out. I say do all the elections and see where we are then. What is 6-7 weeks?


by ineedalife on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:10:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (2.00 / 3)

I did the math, and Obama can't win w/o superdelegates!  he needs to drop out!  or don't you know that the leader in pledged delegates isn't the automatic nominee?  which is why we have superdelegates in the first place!


by BlueDoggyDogg on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:22:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (none / 0)

he needs to drop out? Have you seen the super delegate count? Have you noticed all the supers he is getting and the lack fo ones she is getting.


by pennypacker on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:50:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (2.00 / 1)

is his delegate count 2025?  No?  ok then.  this game ain't over yet.


by BlueDoggyDogg on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:59:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (none / 0)

It's not "literally" impossible, just realistically impossible.  It's like a baseball team down 8 games with 10 to go.  It's not mathematically impossible, but damn close.  To give some perspective, the Mets lost a 7 game lead with 17 games left and that's considered one of the worst collapses in baseball history.  Hillary has to keep fighting because there is no way for her to save face by leaving after a win, but I suspect she knows things don't look good for her.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:22:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (none / 0)

Your analogy undermines your own point.

If the Mets managed to lose their way out of the playoffs, what makes you think Obama can't do the same?


by LakersFan on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:31:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (2.00 / 1)

He could, that's why I said it was not mathematically impossible.  But the odds of her getting either 60%+ of pledged delegates in every race or 75%+ superdelegates is pretty unlikely.  I'm not calling for her to drop out at all, but I would like some Clinton supporters to admit they are hoping for a floor fight at the convention.  Realistically, there isn't another option.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:18:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET A PIECE OF PAPER AND A PENCIL (none / 0)

I've heard plenty of Clinton supporters say they want a floor fight at the convention.


by LakersFan on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:22:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I don't think you understand odd...

or math...
or "this vote doesn't count"...

or logic...

or politics...

PS:  If they "all love Hillary" they'd have endorsed her when she was inevitable like all her other superdelegate endorsements.


by bawbie on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:49:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I work in a job that actually requires me to know how to do calculus...

Michigan and Florida give Hillary a net 167 delegate gain if we follow the rules as they exist.  No votes no delegates...

I didn't get any delegates in Michigan either but I am not bitter...Why does Obama think he would get special rule changes?  Does he know someone at the DNC who will throw the election for him?  Oh thats right he does...
=)


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:00:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

167 delegate gain!!! please provide your math.

she only nets 38 from FL, you are saying she gets 129 delegates from MI!? seriously?

yes please show your math.


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:04:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Of course DTaylor won't show his math.  No one who makes those assertions ever shows the math, because the math would disprove their assertion. They somehow believe that people will be stupid enough to take these wild assertions at face value.

Just ignore any post that does not document how the writer got to the number.


by Onward Virginia Democrats on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:12:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

He's essentially a liar or incompetent or too lazy to look them up.

With Michigan counted as is (a ridiculous notion), and the "uncommitteds" going to Obama, Hillary gets 73 to his 55, for a net gain of 18.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_De mocratic_primary%2C_2008

With Florida counted as is (not as ridiculous), she gets 105 to his 67, for a net gain of 38.  38+18=net gain of 56, which would then put her behind him in pledged delegates by "only" 108.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Dem ocratic_primary%2C_2008

Since we're being ridiculous, let's be really crazy.  Let's pretend none of those "uncommited" votes should count at all.  So Hillary gets a net gain there of 73, plus the 38 in Florida, so she MUST be winning by now, right?  Oh...no?  She's still behind by 53!  So, with the most radically ludicrously pro-Clinton outcome, she is still behind by almost as much as Georgia's total available pledged delegates.

I mean, really.  Stop saying Michigan and Florida will somehow catch Hillary up, because they won't and they can't.  Sorry, fail.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:37:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Why would the uncommitted go to Obama?

He wasn't on the ballot.


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:59:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I thought you were against "disenfranchising voters"?  Unless you think that zero percent of people in Michigan would vote for him.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:19:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

He didn't get any votes.  Thats not my fault.

Sure you could argue that he could have got some votes....

But he could have had a revote...

But in both cases he chose not to.

I could have won michigan but I didn't want to put my name on the ballot and steal anyone's thunder.  Where are my delegates?


by DTaylor on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:51:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

The Democratic Party wanted everyone off the ballot.  Hillary, for whatever reason, didn't do that.  And stop saying he blocked a revote.  Hillary's plan included it being funded by 10 of her friends.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/el ection2008/2008-03-19-michigan_N.htm

I wouldn't take that deal either, if I were him.

But regardless, he didn't block anything.  The legislature decided not to do a re-vote.  And last I checked, Obama was not a state legislator in Michigan.  Ergo, no vote blocking by him.

Good try though.  Keep trying.  I am having less and less sympathy for the dying embers of Hillary's campaign.


by ProgressiveDL on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:59:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

I did the math recently, and came up with a 193 gain for Clinton, and a 72 gain for Obama, for a net of 121.

Now, there are also 55 uncommitted, and I don't know how MI selects those, but my guess is that a slate of uncommitted is voted on, by those saying they are uncommitted, so it probably winds up being split between them 23-22 or so, but that's just a guess at how the process plays out-- this weekend iirc.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No votes, no delegates. (2.00 / 1)

There were no votes in any DNC recognized primaries in those states.  Therefore no delegates are to be allotted.  That's the rules as they stand.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:25:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No votes, no delegates. (none / 0)

Those are the rules if they stand.

If not Hillary +37 Florida +127 Michigan


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:00:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No votes, no delegates. (none / 0)

That's not necessarily true.  If the rules get changed, the genie's out of the bottle and there is no way we can predict what will happen for sure.

I say we don't change the rules in the middle of the game.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

What? The HRC campaign gives themselves a 1 in 10 chance of winning.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:15:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Intrade gives Hill an 18% chance, which is significantly below 3:1.  In fact, almost half that, and this is a high water mark.  Two weeks ago she was at 14%.  

She has no chance.


by zadura on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:43:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Well land sakes! Why do we even waste money on primaries at all, if Intrade can just tell us who our candidate is.


Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are. - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
by anna belle on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:25:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Intrade is a prediction market estimator based on people who are willing to part with their money to bet certain ways on politics and other issues of the day.  If you think its too low or too high, I am willing to bet you personally on the same odds. Deal?


by zadura on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:20:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (1.00 / 0)

Sorry, say that again... was it no chance or 18% chance?
by Apostle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:33:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I will open a Paypal account and put in $800.  You put in $200.  If Hillary wins, you get the pot.  If Obama wins, I get the pot.  Deal?


by zadura on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:18:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Since when do oddsmakers determine the outcome of an election (or even a horserace for that matter)?


by LakersFan on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:28:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

So, who are you voting for in the fall?


Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!
by fwiffo3 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:30:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I wouldn't hold your breath for an answer...  I asked the same question and was told I was being a bully...

That said, whatever happens with FL and MI, thy should have exactly ZERO effect on the process...  ZERO.  That was the penalty they drew for doing what they did.... Not the exact penalty, mind you, but not seating the delegates is just not an option...


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:35:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 2)

If Florida and Michigan count he isn't even up.

No matter how many times you say that, it doesn't make it any more true.

You need a remedial math (or logic) course.


by bawbie on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:30:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

He got no votes in Michigan. 0 delegates for him as cast.

She gains 167 delegates and would be up 21 presently

I know how to do math, maybe you should work on geography there are 50 states in the USA


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:44:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

167?

Wow.  You really don't know math.  How the fuck do you get to that number?  You MUST have given Hillary every delegate in MI, when in fact 55 were voted for as Uncommitted, so even in your freaking fantasy world, you can't count those.

But anyway, the vote in Michigan doesn't count, it was known not to count at the time and it will not ever count.


by bawbie on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:58:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

37+127=164 my bad its 164


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:02:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

Uncommitted isn't a candidate name.

Hillary and Kuchinich split the delegates.


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:04:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

... Then how did I vote for "Uncommitted" in the Michigan primary? And why did the MDP allocate 55 delegates to Uncommitted?

You said in another comment that (gasp) you have a job that requires you to do calculus! Well, I hate to say it, but as a math major, I'm not that impressed. Calculus (A) ain't that hard and (B) is definitely not required for determining numbers of delegates. This is mostly basic arithmetic.

Read this, please. It's the Michigan Democratic Party Delegate Selection Plan, and in it, you'll see how it's possible for Michigan to allocate 55 delegates to Uncommitted. Should they be seated as is, those 55 would be free to vote for whomever they wanted. Chances are, some would vote for Clinton, but I'd guess that most would vote for Obama.

That's if they were seated as is. They won't be. When the last primary is over, Obama will have the lead in the pledged delegate count, which will let him stack the Credentials Committee with his people. The Credentials Committee will force a compromise that seats Michigan and Florida, but will preserve the nomination for Obama. That's how I see it playing out.


Walberg Watch - Following Radical Conservative Rep. Tim Walberg in MI-07
by Fitzy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:35:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Maybe you should consult recent history...  neither race is supposed to count...  


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:58:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Yeah. Election monitors would point and laugh at you if you suggested that was fair.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:16:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

I believe the rules that everyone agreed to excluded those states.  So the only people trying to change them after the fact would in fact be Hillary and her supporters.  I support seating the delegates, but the fact is Hillary agreed to the rules until she lost Iowa.  Why can't you admit that?


by mikeinsf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:22:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

I believe the rules that everyone agreed to excluded those states.  So the only people trying to change them after the fact would in fact be Hillary and her supporters.  I support seating the delegates, but the fact is Hillary agreed to the rules until she lost Iowa.  Why can't you admit that?


by mikeinsf on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:22:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (2.00 / 1)

Hillary's campaign itself said she had no more than a 10% chance of winning.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:29:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Building a Party, Not Tearing One Down (none / 0)

thank you..
What MyDD offers is individual insight.
This is not a lockstep website.
All of you in charge of this house have views you share and views that are divergent.
We all benefit from this.
"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:27:01 PM EST

Thank you (none / 0)

I'm voting for the Democratic candidate in the fall. Lucky for me, that's probably going to be Barack Obama.

I have nothing but contempt for those refusing to support the Democratic candidate because they didn't get their way, like whiny little children. That goes for both Obama and Clinton supporters, but given that there are more Clinton supporters making that threat, it goes double for them. When the Iraq war drags on for years killing thousands of people, and women start dying because the supreme court overturns Roe v. Wade, their blood is going to be on your hands.

It's well past time that people fucking got serious about this election. There is serious fucking shit going on in this country right now, and it's no time for anyone to sit this out over sour grapes.


Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!
by fwiffo3 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:28:34 PM EST

Re: Thank you (2.00 / 1)

I won't sit out don't worry...


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:45:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you (2.00 / 1)

Threats to vote for McCain haven't won over a single voter.

I'm sure you'll be happy having four more years like the last eight.


Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!
by fwiffo3 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:01:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you (none / 0)

Did it ever occur to you that there are people who like McCain better than Obama?

Also, why should they support a party they don't even recognize anymore?

Why support any party for that matter?

Go with your ideals, and ma