Women and the Process

One of the things this campaign has been bringing home to me lately is the paucity of women in general being groomed for higher office.  We have only 16 female Senators.  Most of the candidates I see advocated for on this site at the congressional level are men.

I was listening to Dee Dee Myers on NPR today.  She was talking about the campaign, and one thing she said that I agree with is that a woman exactly equal to Barack Obama in experience and qualifications, would not have been able to reach the level of a run for the presidency (paraphrasing).  I listened to that and thought a young woman, would people, male or female, accept her run, and came to the conclusion that Dee Dee is right.  Hillary Clinton has some things going for her that have made her acceptable as a candidate, her age (middle aged women are seen to have the kind of gravitas accorded to even much younger men) and her husband (not derogatorily, but women forging new territory do better with mentors and you can't beat hers).  

The question I've been trying to answer is what has to change before a 46-year-old female can be accorded respect that goes without even thinking about it, to a similarly qualified male of that age.

I realized I can't even sort out the problem here.  Is it that younger women are more involved in childrearing in a way that the men are not?  There are certainly ambitious and qualified young women, and women represent way over half of the vote in this party, so why the dearth.  What happens to eliminate women from the upper echelons of this sweepstakes?  Why did it take being married to a supportive (well mostly) former president to enable a qualified woman to be taken seriously in this national race.

Myers also told the story in her speech of how orchestral auditions changed when it became clear not enough gifted women were being accepted.  They started to curtain off the candidates.  This resulted, I think she said, in a 5-fold increase in woman who were accepted.  Something has to change in the way we hear and see women, something in our sense of what kind of style is acceptable for a leader, so that a young woman can receive the kind of hearing that a JFK, or Obama, or any youthful politician (male) receives.

Now, I am an Obama supporter for reasons that have nothing to do with gender, but man would I like to see his female equivalent up there in the race.  I don't think that is going to happen for a while.

When I was in Italy in the late 60s I remembered the gap between the young women, usually on the arm of a man, or up to their ears in kids, and the older women.  Many of them were widows, in black, but they spoke strongly, aired their views, bounced the men around verbally when called for, and seemed free and sure of themselves.  I thought of that when Myers made the assertion about a woman of Obama's age.  It's true and it made me very uneasy.

One other thing, if I was involved in the process of educating those whose future was going to be in politics, either through a university or a political party, this is something I would put some thought and funds into.  Not sure how, but do know why.  I wonder if this will ever change.  



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Re: Women and the Process (none / 0)

Well let's be fair.  Hillary has less elected experience than Obama and she would never be given a serious shot if she wasn't married to Bill


by CaptMorgan on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:58:04 PM EST

Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 3)

I'm an Obama supporter; but even I have to take issue with that.  I think that relationship is symbiotic and each helped the other.  Hillary has what it takes on her own.

My favorite illustrative joke (I should have remembered this in the joke diary) is, "What would Bill & Hillary be doing if they'd never met?"
"Bill would be pumping gas in Arkansas, and Hillary would be married to the President."

Okay, it's a bit dated, but you get my point.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:03:59 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (none / 0)

I have long maintained that Bill has held Hillary back over the years.  She may have arrived here by a different route, most likely as a Justice Department bureaucrat coming up through the ranks to end up as state AG then governor of Illinois, but she would have gotten to this sooner had she not waited for Bubba's ambitions to be realized...


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:38:01 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (none / 0)

I completely agree. She set aside her aspirations to help Bill win elections (he lost the elections he ran in before he was married).


by LakersFan on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:32:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 0)

Ok maybe I stated it poorly (like my man obama sometimes does).

I just mean that someone with 6 years in elected office usually doesn't get a serious shot.. but she is married to the former president

Heck, Bush would have never got a real shot if his dad hadn't been president.

Obama is Bill Clinton part 2... young, inexperienced... but a rockstar.

that's what kills me about this race... Obama is in the same spot Bill was in during the 1992 election


by CaptMorgan on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:41:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 1)

I mentioned that in the context of mentoring.  However, given the nature of the young Hillary Rodham, I think she would have made it into the politcal process pretty strongly, but again, not as a young woman.


by mady on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:10:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 2)

On the cover of Life Magazine at twenty-one in 1969, she had nowhere to go but up...


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:39:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Women and the Process (none / 0)

That's actually a good question, and I think the answer is oratory.  Based on resume alone; you'd have to wonder why Obama is a Presidential candidate at this point in his career.  It's a fine resume; but there are no doubt hundreds better if measured by some mythical experience standard alone and ignoring many other factors.

No, I think a lot of Obama's prominence at this time stems from his ability to communicate.  Add his friendly laugh, wonderful cadence, and intonation to his obvious intellect, and he delivers the goods as well as anybody today.

So why can't women match that?  Again, good question.  I have to say that, in addition to her other qualifications, Hillary comes close.  She's not as sweet to listen to as Obama, but she holds her own, but lacks melody imo.  Is it a gender thing?  Dunno.  The pitch of a female voice vs. a soft baritone?  Could be part of it.

Surely women are as qualified for higher positions as men, gender has nothing to do with that; and again, Hillary proves that point.  She'd be where she is with or without Bill.  If it weren't for that phenom from IL, she'd be well on her way (back) to the White House.  

Even though "women's lib" has been around for decades (centuries, even), there still seems to be a paradigm of male leadership.  Women have a too fine line to walk between being tough enough without completely surrendering their gender identity.

Maybe it's bred into us, and the answer is anthropological, not political.  Beats me; I'm just thinking out loud.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:00:12 PM EST

Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 0)

That may be part of the answer, but I am not questioning that a woman of, as they say "a certain age," (my age and Hillary's) would be taken seriously as a candidate, but younger women.  Where we look at a younger man and see strength and vitality and maybe intelectual curiosity, we look at a woman in her thirties and forties and see....what?  That is what I am trying to put my finger on.  

I was thinking that maybe some of these issues have been put to bed, but I think that is just totally wishful thinking.  Perception is all and we still have some growing up to do.


by mady on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:50:35 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 0)

I'm not even taken seriously at my local Democratic Party meetings--I'm 29.


John McCain smells like mothballs.
by asherrem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:09:18 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (none / 0)

I can't quote the studies, but this has been talked about before in other venues.  The whole motherhood v. career thing, I mean.  I've read somewhere that women in business often are perceived as less committed to the job because they might just drop out at any point to raise their families, where men are not likely to do the same.  Patently unfair, to be sure, but the perception is there.  Once women are past childbearing age, their ambitions can then be taken more seriously.  I know I've seen this done as some sort of survey or study of corporate managers in the past decade or so...


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:09:38 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 1)

We are actually studying this in my Sociology class right now.

I just got finished writing a paper on a proposal by David Brooks of the New York times in which he argues that women should sequence their lives to avoid conflict between work and family.

For instance, after graduation from college, a woman should get married and have babies and take care of them for twenty years.  Then, when she got to be about 40 years of age, she can enter the labor market with full attention to her career.

I won't even bother getting into why this is absolutely ridiculous, but the message is--ladies, if you have kids, you're just not dependable.  And hey, if you do have kids and aren't actively caring for them, you're a bad mother.


John McCain smells like mothballs.
by asherrem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:15:04 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 1)

As much as I have always loathed Brooks, that puts the cap on it.  Grrrrrr.


by mady on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:34:49 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 1)

Too many men don't realize this gender paradigm hurts them too.  Just as women are supposed to "drop out and make babies", male roles prevent them from enjoying that very opportunity (less the biological constraints, of course).  Being closely involved with child-rearing is a wonderful thing, but it's a choice too often denied to men by the same paradigm that imposes it on women.

Despite the increasingly equal (not there yet) opportunities for working women, the "man as breadwinner" mindset still dominates; and both genders lose.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:50:21 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 1)

Very true!

I'm a new dad, in a very equal-partnership type marraige.  It has been interesting to see that stuff come up.  It would be absurd, for instance, to be a stay at home dad.  People do it, but it would definitely be going against the grain.


by nwgates on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:37:56 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (none / 0)

Hey, congrats!  


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:40:34 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 0)

Thanks!!!

He is 7 & 1/2 weeks.  Beautiful little fat boy.  Joyfull.


by nwgates on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:43:43 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 1)

From a kid's perspective:  When I was ten and my sister was 5, my dad was laid off from work.  My stepmother worked and he stayed home for a year and took care of us until she was in full time elementary school.  We both remember that time so fondly.  We had his full attention, he loved to cook, he just doted on both of us.  I think every child should have the experience of both parents' nurturing, and for my father who enjoyed his kids far more than he did his job, it was one of the best years of his life.


by mady on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:44:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Women and the Process (none / 0)

"Where we look at a younger man and see strength and vitality and maybe intelectual curiosity, we look at a woman in her thirties and forties and see....what?"

A sex object..., and you dont take those seriously!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:29:28 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 1)

Someone (was it Tucker Carlson?) said when he hears Hillary's voice he crosses his legs.  Nuff said.  Women's behavior is held to a different standard than men's.  If a woman is ambitious she is likely to be labeled a bitch, ball breaker, not feminine, not attractive..etc at some point in her life.  


by JustJennifer on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:58:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I will say that (2.00 / 0)

here in MN we elected an awesome female senator in 2006 (Amy Klobuchar).  She is around the same age as Sen Obama (I think she is 47).


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:01:07 PM EST

Dee Dee's logic is flawed (none / 0)

Experience and qualifications are not the sole deciding factors. I think if there were a female candidate that was equal to Obama running who was able to inspire, have the same level of charisma, and present an uplifting vision for the country she would have a very good chance running. Hell, Benazir Bhutto was able to rise to power in ISLAMIC PAKISTAN. I think if a woman can be so successful there then there's little doubt it's possible here.


by TheSilverMonkey on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:57:46 PM EST

Re: Dee Dee's logic is flawed (2.00 / 2)

Bhutto, God rest her soul, might not be the best example.  She rose to prominence because of her name, not any particular leadership skill (there's a reason she did not take her husband's name upon marriage: her maiden name was too powerful to give up).  Just watch - her son will emerge pretty soon here as the leader of that party, and he's only 29 with zero political experience.


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:12:03 PM EST
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Re: Dee Dee's logic is flawed (none / 0)

I'm also wondering if in other cultures the fact that women are not so sexualized as public people as they are here, might have something to do with the fact that you have an Indira Gandhi and Benazir Bhutto.  This is a bit off the wall, but maybe our image of public women here is a bit too much leaning to the movie star.


by mady on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:19:21 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 0)

great thread.  there is also evidence that women don't feel as connected to politics, and that those with the same qualifications as men don't feel like they're are qualified enough to run -- so fewer of them do.  there is further evidence that the more that women run and serve, the more women and girls watching pay attention to politics. one important way we can encourage younger women to consider political office is by treating hillary with respect.  this doesn't necessarily mean voting for her, and it certainly doesn't mean not criticizing her, but it does mean fighting the sexism in the way she's sometimes covered.


by proudliberaldem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:53:58 PM EST

Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 0)

Agreed.  If I remember my public school days, there were always girls campaigning for class president.  I wish we could capture the spirit of those kids and let them run with it.  At what point do women's voices become so easy to block out?


by mady on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:57:52 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 0)

I have also seen some remarkably oafish comments about Michelle Obama recently, from women, when she is out speaking.  Again, not critical of her beliefs but critical of her way of being out in public.  


by mady on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:00:32 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 0)

exactly, we need to stop these kinds of attacks no matter who the target is, no matter which candidate we support, because girls are watching.  thank you for starting this important discussion!


by proudliberaldem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:05:58 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (none / 0)

A strong man is a threat to other men; but a strong woman threatens both men and women.  I've always thought the "behind every successful man..." aphorism was sexist; but there's no denying that no one succeeds in politics without a strong and capable spouse.  Kudos to Michelle for being up to the challenge.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:45:46 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 0)

Seconded.  A strong woman is perhaps the most frightening entity there is, to a lot of people.  Strong women get told to go home and watch the kids and stop stealing jobs from the men (and also that they are depriving their children of a mother), and at the same time they have to fight like the dickens to prove that the second X chromosome doesn't negate the possibility of intelligence.  To be able to be strong and still stand behind her spouse is a point in both Hillary's and Michelle's favor.


"Information is the currency of democracy." -Thomas Jefferson
by bigsky on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:14:14 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (none / 0)

It would be nice if there was some anthropological/socio-economic/geo-polit ical explanation for this, but I think that's grasping at straws. Usually the obvious answer is also the correct answer.


by LakersFan on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:44:03 PM EST

Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 2)

I covered the 1968 convention in chicago for cns of los angeles and they provided an inroduction to the committee who doled out the floor passes which were much coveted because that was where the action is. Long story short, a big honcho in the Dem party met me at some little table for coffee and after I asked for a pass, he threw his room key across the table.  I wanted that pass so bad. But I said something like, "Not that way." and then I left. Some pal of his came along later and gave me the pass saying, "What would it have cost ya, huh?" Only my self respect you asshole is what I thought, but didn't say.


by linfar on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:00:04 PM EST

Re: Women and the Process (2.00 / 1)

Read this article:

http://www.fayobserver.com/article?id=29 1138

I wrote about this in my diary here:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/4/14/2027 55/262#readmore

The media has played a huge role in gender discrimination in this campaign and against Hillary Clinton.

While the media jumps all over anyone that is racist in their remarks, they do not do the same against discriminatory remarks about women.

My dream in life was to see a Woman President and specifically to see THE Woman - Hillary Clinton because I believe she is the ONLY woman that can get through all the crap and has made it this far.

I am angry at the media and I'm angry at the Obama campaign for ruining MY dream. So - I'm bitter.

Now my question is to you, Mady - do NOT take this as a critism, it is NOT meant that way.

But as a woman concerned about this subject - WHY would you not support THE woman candidate?

I'm not suggesting you should do so only because she is a woman, but if you are concerned about women's issues: pay scale, women's health, child care, etc. Why NOT support THE woman running who would focus on these issues?

Obviously many, many African American voters have gotten behind Barack Obama - to the tune of 80% +!!! This is because they are proud of him, believe in him and want to support him because he's African American. I completely GET that...

As a white woman - I cannot understand why WOMEN have not gotten behind Hillary in greater numbers. If she had the support of 80% of white women, she would already be the nomimee.

So - why is it that women do not support other women, not only in this political arena - but in general? At work, at school, etc.?

What message are we sending to women that have to witness the media bias and sexism against Hillary Clinton? Don't bother running for President - we will "chew you up and spit you out" and America will stand by and accept this.


by nikkid on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:42:57 AM EST

Re: Women and the Process (none / 0)

I think, respectfully, that we send the message we should; that we can make up our own minds who we think is the best candidate to run the country.  I believe he will make a great president, and I have some concerns about her.  That's all it amounts to.  Look, there are Republican women I admire for having gotten to where they are but I would not vote for them.  I admire Hillary Clinton for what she has achieved, voted for her for Senator, but prefer him for President.

What I want to see is more young women making a dent in the  political process early on, so we are not in the position of feeling the need to support the one candidate who is female, so that we could choose from a variety of candidates, in equal numbers male and female.


by mady on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:56:43 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (none / 0)

You wrote a very interesting and thoughtful diary.  I respect your reasons for supporting Obama even though I do not support him.  Strangely enough, I didn't really want Hillary to run.  I dislike the idea of women rising through the ranks through marriage.  Not that Hillary couldn't have gone very, very far if she hadn't married Bill - I think she could and would have.  Another thing I dislike is having two families split the White House between them for decades.

Then, as the primary season started and I paid more attention to the candidates, I decided that she deserved to be judged entirely on her own merits.  She's far from perfect and I disagree with her on the IWR, but overall I believe she'd make the best president, so I voted for her and am very glad I did.

Women have made good progress in elective office over the past few decades - good but not really good enough.  I think having a woman president will do more for bringing women into the elections than anything else could.  Fortunately, I also think she's better than Obama.  His brand of inspiration strikes me as hollow, although clearly it works for a lot of people.  Hillary isn't very inspiring in her speechifying, but her hard work, mental acuity, and determination DO inspire me.  I believe these attributes will inspire young women, as well.


by Montague on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:32:36 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (none / 0)

The question is not whether young women are inspired, it's what is keeping these inspired young women from achieving what they should be, why they are not taken seriously, why they are not listened to.


by mady on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:37:12 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (none / 0)

Yes, and the reason they aren't achieving at the right level or being taken seriously is that they continue to be sexualized at that age.  And in fact many of them don't object to being sexualized.  Again, it's a great reason to put a woman in charge of the country, in order to give life to the paradigm.  Young women AND young men need to see women as something more than Angelina Jolie or Paris Hilton.


by Montague on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 03:46:16 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (none / 0)

It is, but we still have to make choices on more than gender.  I would love to see Obama run with a woman as VP, though.  Look, there are a lot of women in politics I would love to vote for, Barbara Mikulski is one of my favorites, and some, like Diane Feinstein I would not vote for in a million years.  There are other issues involved.  Given two candidates who are identical on the issues that are important to me, of course I would choose the woman.  Hopefully there will be an effort by the party and by educational institutions to have more women coming up so that there are a wide variety of viewpoints to choose from in female candidates.


by mady on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 04:00:10 PM EST
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Re: Women and the Process (none / 0)

I agree, and gender isn't my only reason here.  I'd never vote for Elizabeth Dole, for example, no matter what.  If Obama had waited until he had more related experience under his belt, I'd have liked him a lot more.  Instead, we have the unpleasant spectacle of two historically unrepresented groups vying for our nomination, with attendant mudslinging from both sides, and it's setting us up for a loss to McCain.  Too bad - because otherwise we might have had a woman president followed by a black president.  That would have been cool.


by Montague on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:08:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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