Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes, the worse she does

During this long primary campaign, Hillary Clinton has always been penned-in (no pun intended) by her own history. Years of being a target by media sources and Republicans raised her unfavorability numbers to near 50%, usually hovering around 45%-48%. This history makes it difficult for her to go on the attack because to do so plays directly into her unfavorables.

Clinton supporters have told me, over and over, that Clinton is a "known quantity," and, therefore, voters who don't like her already don't like her. In other words, her negative numbers were topped out.

Frankly, I never bought that argument. Her numbers could always go higher. And they have.

Which brings us to Obama's "bitter" comment...

As I wrote in a number of early posts here by Hillary loyalists pumping Obama's "bitter" comment:

We'll see how it plays out. But I'm wondering if Hillary's fierce and repeated denunciations play into negative perceptions of her already held by many voters.

As the diaries here pumping this story continued to fill the recommended list, I wrote:

As I noted in one of alegre's numerous posts

... on this subject, regardless of what one thinks of what Obama said, Hillary and her surrogates, particularly a hack like Vilsack who is counting desperately on a Hillary win so he can be the next Secretary of Education (or, who knows, maybe even VP pick), are at risk of overplaying their hand on this.

Hillary has high negatives for a reason. If voters don't think this as serious as Hillary and company continue to claim it is, this may come back to bite her.

We'll see. Judging by the Sunday morning shows and today's PA newspaper endorsements, Clinton and her pals may be in danger of simply looking desperate.

by Bob Johnson on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:10:22 PM CST

I added in that same comment string:

As I noted, the next few days will tell...

I have no control over what anyone says. It appears Hillary thinks she's onto something big. I am not convinced, judging by reactions in PA.

"Mountain" and "molehill" come to mind. Maybe this will really be Obama's undoing. Who knows?

Still, I think Hillary runs the risk of:

1. Appearing desperate, and
 2. Playing into her negatives.

by Bob Johnson on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:17:26 PM CST

A look at the Rasmussen rolling favorable/unfavorable numbers show that Clinton's unfavorable number has dipped below 50% only eight days since February 11. And, in fact, her unfavorables have gone from 51% on April 13, the day Obama's comments broke, to 56% today.

Couple that with all of the latest Pennsylvania polls showing little or no movement among the electorate (and, yes, Clinton is headed for a win with only the margin to be determined), and Obama's continued strength in the Gallup, Rasmussen, Reuters and ABC/WaPo national Dem nomination polls, and the conclusion is that Hillary going on the attack drives up her unfavorables.

The boomerang effect that is unique to Clinton because of her history appears to be in full effect.

Out of the three news stories that have dominated the primary campaign over the last several weeks -- Wright, Tuzla and "bitter" -- it appears that Tuzla has had the biggest impact on the electorate. Today's ABC/Washington Post poll includes this paragraph:

Clinton is viewed as "honest and trustworthy" by just 39 percent of Americans, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll, compared with 52 percent in May 2006. Nearly six in 10 said in the new poll that she is not honest and trustworthy. And now, compared with Obama, Clinton has a deep trust deficit among Democrats, trailing him by 23 points as the more honest, an area on which she once led both Obama and John Edwards.

The Tuzla fable played to Hillary's biggest weakness among voters: the belief that she is not honest/can't be trusted.

I know Clinton backers will tell me that Michelle Obama's comments, the Wright story and "bitter" will doom Obama in the general, but that is a hypothetical. He may be doomed, he may not be doomed. But he has shown an ability to respond to these crises which inevitably arise in a campaign.

What is a fact are Clinton's rock-solid negatives. And, yes, they can go up. Because voters have preconceived notions about her and every time she attacks or gets caught in even the mildest inaccuracy, all of these doubts about her bubble to the surface again.

Now, I think McCain is an eminently beatable candidate. Regardless of what polls show today, McCain has yet to be tested. (We've been too busy in the primary.) Frankly, he is a lousy candidate and a lousy campaigner in a very, very bad year for Republicans. The economy is not going to be improving before the general. We know Iraq will be the same, or, more likely, worse. McCain is the second coming of Bob Dole and he will meet the same fate as Dole, regardless of who the Democrats nominate.

But Clinton is hamstrung by her past. Would Hillary beat McCain? Of course! Even with her high negatives. But for her campaign to be making the argument that Obama is unelectable is laughable in light of her own problems. And arguing that Obama is not electable doesn't, conversely, mean that she's more electable.

The flip side every superdelegate should be asking her/himself when Camp Clinton makes this argument in private conversations is, "But what are Hillary's chances versus Obama's?"

Given the last six weeks, I'd say Obama's chances are better than Clinton's. And both of their chances of becoming president are better than McCain's.



Display:


Bob's Dilemma (1.22 / 22)

Hey Bob-- the more negative you go on Clinton, the worse your writing gets.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:41:41 PM EST

Brahaaaa!!!! (2.00 / 0)

To paraphrase Barack: now that's rich!

Pot, meet kettle.


by John Campanelli on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:30:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry.. To me, its's Obama folks who seem the most (1.33 / 6)

BITTER and negative...

Obama wants America to accept LESS because his corporate buddies want MORE and in their view, both can't have slices of the shrinking pie.

Hillary Clinton doesn't see it as a zero sum game. She has a vision that rebuilds American prosperity with education and smart use of technology. She has a better grasp of whats required and its obvious.

Obama represents a subtle, high gloss denial.


public option=not affordable for middle. It cant cover all affordably, google adverse selection for why
by architek on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:16:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Corporate buddies (2.00 / 2)

Very true. The front page of USA Today says

Obama tied to lobbyists, but boasts of not taking money

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/el ection2008/2008-04-15-obama_N.htm


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:26:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what my alternative?? (2.00 / 4)

Hillary? who takes lobbyist money and is proud of it?


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:20:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob's Dilemma (2.00 / 5)

Technically, the more negative Clinton goes on Obama, the more her favorability plummets.  

Ironically, the more you sling silly insults, the more your credibility plummets.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:32:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The main reason why Hillary is not perceived as .. (2.00 / 4)

honest and trustworthy, in my opinion, is not the Tuzla untruths, but because of her faux outrage and concern trolling about the Wright and Bitter comments.  I believe that most people see through her obvious (to me) dissingenuineness.  It is an authenticity problem.  


by xtrarich on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:39:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob's Dilemma (2.00 / 2)

People on this site are so delusional, it is really a pity now.  No wonder the MSM don't get narratives from this site, look at it.  Most of the Clinton diaries are so poorly sourced and ridiculous this site has gone down the tubes.  Bob Johnson is spot on.  In the end, people do not vote for politicians they view dishonest.  And with all the kerfuffle, the only candidate that had looked at challenges in his campaign head on is Barack Obama.

That blatant lie of Hillary on Tuzla, just sunk her campaign.  That video tape said it all.  She is DONE.


by tracey webb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:46:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob's Dilemma (2.00 / 1)

Obama is losing to McCain in New York, PA, OH and in Florida by 15 pts (Hillary beats McCain by 1 in the same poll.

Hillary is beating Obama by 36 pts in Kentucky. What makes you think that Obama has a snowball's chance in hell of beating McCain when he can't even beat him in blue states?

You are dillusional if you think Obama is going to win in November. Working-class whites have abandoned him as well as Independents and open-minded Republicans. Hispanics like McCain and love Clinton. Obama needs about 70% of the hispanic vote to make up for the white vote he will lose from past nominees. It won't happen.

Something you have forgotten or never knew: Democrats lose and lose big when we nominate someone who is perceived to be as liberal as Obama. Yes, you feel good now, but will be heart-broken when the results come in. This election will be like 1972, 1984, 1988 and 2004. With the exception of Kerry who lost to a chimp, we got beaten badly in each race. The all looked good up until the convention.

Show me a Democrat who loses in April Polls to a Republican and I will show you a loser in November. It is you who has your head in the sand.


by mmorang on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:03:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, then (2.00 / 1)

we definitely can't nominate Hillary. She does worse than Obama, as you know, of course.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:05:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, then (2.00 / 0)

Actually, she does better in important swing states like PA, OH, Fl, MI.

McCain beats Obama in Florida by 15 pts. Hillary beats McCain there in the same poll.


by mmorang on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:19:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, of course. (2.00 / 2)

"States That Matter".

However, overall, she does worse than he does, which you can confirm via those little map thingies on the front page.

I really wonder sometimes whether you folks are even trying anymore. It's all "well, if you just look at this tightly selected and completely irrelevant set of circumstances, Hillary wins", whether that has any bearing on real-world outcomes or not.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:53:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pretty thin gruel (2.00 / 0)

alright.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:36:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Dilemma: He Lost the Debate (2.00 / 0)

Hillary's Reviews Are In: `The Winner,' `Strong Presence,' `In Her Element'

Hillary dominates Philadelphia focus group. "NYDIA HAN: The real take away is this. We now know who won the debate according to our focus group. Take a look. Senator Clinton is the debate winner, at least according to our focus group. 23% believe Senator Obama won while 50% believed Senator Clinton won." [WPVI Post-Debate Analysis, 4/16/08]

ABC News' Rick Klein - `Clinton is back to the strong presence we saw early in the cycle.' [ABC News Political Radar, 4/16/08]

NBC News' Chuck Todd - Obama `did not have a good night.' [MSNBC Post-Debate Analysis, 4/16/08]

NBC News' Chuck Todd--Obama's answer on Ayers and the flag `were simply weak.' "His answer on Ayers and the flag question were simply weak; He seemed unprepared for them; Kinda surprising because he normally has a decent rant against "old politics" and yet "old politics" questions seemed to stump him." [NBC First Read, 4/16/08]

The Atlantic's Marc Ambinder - [T]here's no way Obama could fared worse. [The Atlantic's Marc Ambinder, 4/16/08]

Washington Post' Chris Cillizza-- Obama `struggled quite a bit' when asked about Rev. Wright. "...He struggled quite a bit more when asked to answer for Wright, his former pastor." [Washington Post, The Fix, 4/16/08]

New York Times' Katharine Seeyle: Hillary's `in her element as she goes into details.' "She's becoming expansive, seemingly in her element as she goes into details; Mr. Obama does not look as thrilled to be still standing there." [New York Times, The Caucus, 4/16/08]

Talking Points Memo's Josh Marshall - Hillary `certainly seems more self-assured.' "She certainly seems more self-assured on the Iran question than Obama did. The question of extending an American security umbrella to Israel is very dicey. And he could clearly see he was on delicate territory." [Talking Points Memo, 4/16/08]

Philadelphia Inquirer blog - `Obama is again less certain, and rambles a bit.' "Obama is again less certain, and rambles a bit when asked about the Washington D.C. gun ban. Gibson asks him to deny that he has ever advocated a complete ban on hand guns in 1996. Obama says no. But whatever the truth, no other answer is possible." [Philadelphia Inquirer Blog, 4/16/08]

NBC News' Matthew Berger - Obama `tried to have it both ways' with Israel. "Obama's answer on an Iranian attack on Israel tried to seem to have it both ways: highlight his support for Israel but not lock him into treating an attack on Israel like an attack on the U.S. But it may have looked more like a no because it wasn't a firm yes. Clinton's answer seemed more direct." [NBC First Read, 4/16/08]

And, finally, the coup de grace:

Barack says: Debating is HARD WORK!

And, he had to answer, like, the hardest questions ever, and it made him cross and defensive!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvUNFmB7J l8


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:16:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Depressing News (2.00 / 2)

In a head to head matchup between John McCain and Barack Obama, McCain leads 49% to 39% with 12% undecided.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/article s/docs/SV_PAApril16_08.html


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:46:05 PM EST

Re: Depressing News (2.00 / 2)

If the election were tomorrow, or even week or month, there would be cause for concern. But polls this far from any election are as meaningless as teets on a boar.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:48:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depressing News (1.40 / 5)

Yes, voters would have 7 more months between now and November to explore and exploit Obama's Rezko connection, Rev. Wright and his church's IRS investigation, Obama's foolish elitist statements, etc.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:55:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:55:12 PM EST (2.00 / 3)

I'm sure you'll be doing your best to promote those topics, but Obama has already neutralized them -- and hillary's attacks have actually been helpful by running those topics into the ground. Keep up the good work!


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:03:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (1.40 / 5)

Rezko will only get MORE publicity as the trial progresses.

Rev. Wright's will only get MORE publicity as the IRS investigation proceeds.

Obama's elitist attitude will only become MORE pronouced as he continues to hammer on "bitter" folks who turn to religion and guns, not to mention his "typical white people" sterotypes.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:24:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There is no Rezko story (2.00 / 3)

Unless you know something the Chicago Tribune and Sun-Times don't.  

As far as the other ones, the polls bear it out that they are not as significant as many have hoped.

You are going to say something unsubstantiated to try to refute this, like nuh-uh, and that's fine.  I just wanted to correct your spin.


by nwgates on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:33:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I HOPE McCain wants to make (2.00 / 3)

Ethics an issue.  That will work out for him even better than it did for Clinton.


by nwgates on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:39:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Free ride till Obama is nominee, IMO (2.00 / 0)

>I'm sure you'll be doing your best to promote those topics, but Obama has already neutralized them -- and hillary's attacks have actually been helpful by running those topics into the ground. Keep up the good work!

I wish you were right but the way I see it, Obama seems as if he's already blown it by his various misstatements.

You think the GOP is going to SIT on that if Obama is the nominee? NO WAY.

They are just giving him an easy ride now because they think he will be easier to beat.


public option=not affordable for middle. It cant cover all affordably, google adverse selection for why
by architek on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:20:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Free ride till Obama is nominee, IMO (2.00 / 4)

You're under a severe delusion if you think Hillary is somehow immune to Republican attacks. And her ability to respond to campaign crises has been piss poor this whole campaign.


by TheSilverMonkey on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:34:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Free ride till Obama is nominee, IMO (none / 0)

The delusion is that Obama, unvetted and untested, can win the GE.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:45:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Free ride till Obama is nominee, IMO (2.00 / 5)

You need to read this.  Untested, unvetted, after the Clintons, please.  Face it, your girl ran a piss poor campaign.  She is barely hanging on.  Out of money, etc.  She just ran a 90s campaign and got beaten by a 2008 machine, called grassroots.


by tracey webb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:53:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There is no Rezko story (2.00 / 1)

That person has been saying that about Rezko since 2007.  NEXT.


by tracey webb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:50:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (2.00 / 1)

Wish hard enough and maybe it will come true.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:45:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (2.00 / 4)

Rezko is a dead horse, Wright is on a 24/7 loop in Faux, and fatigue is already setting in.

On the other hand "Truth-Gate" hasn't even showed up on Rush's or Hannity's radar, because they, and the rest of the Republics got the memo "We know how to run against the Clinton(s), let's knock Obama out now.

Funny thing is, from the Clinton Supporters, all along was this hewn cry "he's never been vetted, he can't take a punch..."

Now, with Wright_Gate and Bitter_Gate getting 24/7 coverage, and his national numbers going up, it's:

"Wait till they use it against him in the fall?"

It's always THE NEXT big hit that is going to finish Obama with you folks.

Repeat after me: Hillary had a 20+Lead in Penn, and EVEN WITH Wright and Bitter gate, she probably blew half of that....

It's her last REAL great stand, she will get crushed in NC and Obama will fight her to a standstill in Indiana....

But, since you folks think Bitter Gate is the crusher, that won't happen, and Hillary will win
Penn and Indiana by big double digits, right?

He's TOAST right?

Or, is there something magical about the fall and the Republics, something different then what they are doing now?

It's going to be WORSE when Obama is running ads against this assualt, and every Democrat in Congress has his back?

It's going to be worse when he finally gets on a stage and debates poor muddled John McCain, who can't tell the Shias from the Sunnis?

Sheesh, This IS his test of fire, and his numbers keep going up....


Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin and Joe the Plumber...The Triad of Republican Irrelevancy.
by WashStateBlue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:06:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (2.00 / 1)

He hasn't even BEGUN to get tested yet. Clinton's endured 15 YEARS of Rethuggery, and is still standing tall against their smears.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:34:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

When has she run in a national election? (2.00 / 3)


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:36:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More pertinent Q (none / 0)

When has she NOT been in the national news?


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:56:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More pertinent Q (2.00 / 2)

Dream on, KnowVox.....

We Obama supporters KNOW it's going to be a war in the fall.

Of the bigger delusions from the Hillary supporters is

"She has been totally vetted and beaten all the Republic attacks!'

Yeah, she won IN NY against RICK LAZIO!

She hasn't BEGUN to be attacked by Hannity et all on Truth-gate?

Remember Al Gore Invented the Internet?

How's this ad strike you...

Fade up to John McCain in the Hanoi Hilton

Voice Over "John McCain, shot down from 30,000 feet spent 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton..."

Cross fade to Hillary on the tarmac in Bosnia...

Voice up of Hillary decribing running for cover from the Snipers...

Fade to her lollygagging, talking to the soldiers...

Fade to John McCain getting off that plane, in his dress whites, weighing about 105 pounds, with his arm in the sling, Saluting the welcoming officer...

Voice over: "When it comes to trusting a Commander in Chief, who do you want in office?

The man who withstood torture to stand with his brothers in arms...

Or someone that can't tell Sniper Fire from a Sunny Day..."

Fade to black..,,,


Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin and Joe the Plumber...The Triad of Republican Irrelevancy.
by WashStateBlue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:40:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More pertinent Q (none / 0)

How's this ad strike you...

Fade in to show 3,000 dead U.S. soldiers in Iraq, and thousands more injured.

Clip of McCain advocating Iraq war for "another 100 years"

Clip of Clinton: "We will begin redeploying our troops within 60 days after I'm elected."

Fade to thundering applause and cheers...


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:49:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More pertinent Q (2.00 / 2)

Yeah, except that ad works even better for Obama, since he didn't authorize the war?

Still, my point was, She WILL be attacked, and Truth-Gate will be it.....

You keep wanting to claim she has some inherit advantage over Obama against attack?

All your add proved is BOTH CLinton and Obama will run a "100" years war ad against McCain?


Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin and Joe the Plumber...The Triad of Republican Irrelevancy.
by WashStateBlue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:55:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More pertinent Q (none / 0)

Obama didn't lift a finger to end the war. All he gave was a speech. Where were his protest rallies? His consistent votes to CUT funding? He might not have authorized, but he sure took no concrete steps to end it. You ad was attempting to prove McCain will hammer Clinton, when it's Obama who's more vulnerable.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:09:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More pertinent Q (2.00 / 1)

This is about Ads, Vox, not your opinion....

And, agian SHOW ME how Obama is more vunerable, cause its just your opinion that he is.

My ad was a direct hit to Clinton, and I easily morphed your ad to Obama, and it is just as effective?

Ah, but I get it. You HAVE to cling to this nutty idea that she is "fully vetted" and will just breeze through the GE, and Obama will get hammered...

Funny, you Clinton supporters claim we live in a dream world, but WE Obama supporters KNOW a ShitStorm is coming...

In Hillaryland, on one hand, they whine consistantly that the media hates her, then they turn around and say "FULLY VETTED-BATTLE TESTED-SHE'S TOOK IT ALL AND IS STILL STANDING!"


Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin and Joe the Plumber...The Triad of Republican Irrelevancy.
by WashStateBlue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:15:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She has never run in a national election. (2.00 / 2)

She hasn't run a very good primary campaign. She is not Bill. She was supposed to walk away with this thing. She told Stephanopoulos that it would all be over by February 5.

You keep touting her as if she is invincible.

She has proven that she is not.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:45:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She has been constantly in the national (2.00 / 0)

spotlight, and you might even argue that her senate campaigns have been nationalized.

Bob, this sort of nyah nyah diary plays much better at Big Orange than here.  It's not that we don't want to discuss the issues, and it's not that we as Clinton supporters don't see her negatives.  She is not my dream candidate; Edwards was as close as there was to that.  But you're more interested in stirring the pot than discussing the issues.  If you want to discuss the issues, fine.  Let's talk about negatives of both candidates:  Clinton's association with the free trade deals of Clinton I; Obama's unrealistic idea of health care without national enrollment (not to mention recycling Harry and Louise -- remember them?)

But otherwise, let's neither of us waste the bandwidth, huh?


The fascist takeover of America has already occurred; but the people have not yet realized.
by magnetics on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:13:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not 'stirring the pot.' (2.00 / 1)

I'm pointing out that, despite the hyperbole here from Hillary backers, that Obama's comment killed his campaign.

And the fact that the Clinton campaign claimed the remark (and other issues) made Obama "unelectable" is laughable.

These numbers show the odds of either Obama or Clinton being "unelectable" lean heavily towards Clinton, despite what the Clinton loyalists say or write.

Have you been telling alegre that she's "wasting bandwidth?"

Didn't think so...


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:49:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not sure I'm reading you right. (none / 0)

I don't think his comment 'killed his campaign,' and even if I don't like Rev. Wright, the fact that he was volunteer combat medic makes him a better man than 99% of the Rethugs in this country.

I am against forgone conclusions, 'electability' arguments if you will, in the primary or general.  I think the Dem nomination is still an open story, no matter what 'assured victory' narratives are being played (mostly by your guys, as it happens).  

As for the general, McCain has one thing going for him, and that's that the MSM are his lickspittle posse.  He's hung Bush's war around his own neck, like an albatross; and it could sink him, despite his little buddies.  I think Hillary has a better chance of beating him for one simple reason: she has faced and survived the full onslaught of the Rethuglican hate machine.  As for Rezko, it's probably a non-story, but so was Whitewater, and that likely cost us the presidency in 2000, since it kept Bill Clinton from campaigning much.  A win in Arkansas would have settled it for us, regardless of FL.

Anyhow, I can see Obama beating McCain, but I think Hillary has a better chance, and I think (we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this) that she'd make a better president.

BTW, some of Alegre's posts here were over the top, but nothing like what I've seen at Big Orange.  Remember the 'blackening of Obama?' on the front page?  C'mon man; and I'm half of a mixed-race marriage, too.


The fascist takeover of America has already occurred; but the people have not yet realized.
by magnetics on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:14:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You haven't been paying attention. (none / 0)

Until the moderators here put the clamps on a few folks like Larry Johnson, susanhu and Universal, this place was a hotbed of red-hot burning Obama hate.

But maybe you missed all that.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:44:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama hate? (2.00 / 0)

Sorry that's all you can see here.  Too bad the moderators haven't acted to quell the Hillary hate at Big Orange, which is why I don't post there anymore, with the possible exception of scientific/environmental issues, such as 'California Shock and Awe.'  You could look it up, but I won't hold my breath.

Say what you will, this place is still more open than Dkos to a diversity opinions, whether they happen to be yours or not -- or mine.


The fascist takeover of America has already occurred; but the people have not yet realized.
by magnetics on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:35:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (2.00 / 1)

She's still standing. With an unfavorable rating of 56%, the standing tall part is highly debatable. Those 15+ years in the public eye have taken their toll - and any abatement in right-wing attacks was a result of their diminished influence after Bill's term ended.

You expect the abatement to continue if she's the nominee? Do you really think the right-wing attack machine has bought into those "fully vetted!" claims? Do you really think that once Hillary's the nominee, they're going to pack up and go home?
Or will it rather prompt a slew of grand-daddy of all "anti-Billary" fundraisers, coupled with a screeching Limbaugh and his henchmen with their "America Held Hostage!" reunions?

Sadly, campaign rote doesn't hold much water outside of true believer circles.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:57:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (none / 0)

Fortunately, the vast right wing conspiracy doesn't hold much water outside of THEIR true believers circle, as evidenced by the fact that despite their continued smears, she continues to garner world wide respect, knows & understands the players in Congress/business & how to work with them, and is an excellent debator.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:04:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (none / 0)

She is distrusted by more than 50% of her fellow citizens.  The world has no vote and the "players in Congress/business" has only a minority vote.  If a person is the best, most talented, most qualified person to be president, but she loses the election, then what's the point of having her as the nominee?  BTW, I don't think she is "the best, most talented, most qualified person to be president."


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:17:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (none / 0)

Yes, she's weathered the storms well enough to have won the NY Senate race. I'm sure you'll agree that the country's demographics don't mirror New York's. And at some point, even those sympathetic to her get scandal-weary.

The "fully vetted" claims aren't even holding up during the primary season - witness Tuzlagate and the latest "screw-em" brouhaha. Remember that these occured without the involvement of the right wing dirt machine. Just picture the firestorm of distortion, innuendo and outright lies that will be coming her way once that thing gets cranked up.

Further this isn't just a case of whether those right wing slime attempts will be effective outside their circles. Her very presence in the race will motivate conservatives to come out in droves to vote against her. Clinton's very presence in this race would rouse them like smelling salts to the unconscious, her candidacy itself to them a battle cry.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:30:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pipedreams (none / 0)

Oh please, someone give this person a reality drink.  Really, your nonsense is that nonsense.  The dance was over after Wisconsin, when she sat down like a dead dog and let Obama run the numbers up.

Finally, her handling of her campaign is abysmal, and this is being nice.  It is a view of how she handles personnel, people, issues, flare-ups, and she has failed that test miserably.

Sorry, being married to a former president is not enough, she just ain't Bill.


by tracey webb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:57:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

right... (none / 0)

she could not beat them so she joined them


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:22:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depressing News (none / 0)

Don't explain that to them.  They wrapped themselves in poll numbers all 2007 and see where it has gotten them.  NO WHERE.


by tracey webb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:48:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depressing News (none / 0)

That may be the weakness that brought the Clintons down as much as any -- believing that poll numbers in themselves are what win primaries (and elections).


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:28:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Depressing News (none / 0)

That may be the weakness that brought the Clintons down as much as any -- believing that poll numbers in themselves are what win primaries (and elections).


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:28:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Strategic Vision has Sen. Clinton (2.00 / 0)

losing by 3.  Also their history has shown a tilt toward republicans when comparing them to almost any other poll.

check the history out at
http://fivethirthyeight.com/


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:52:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Strategic Vision has Sen. Clinton (1.25 / 4)

Yes, people keep forgetting the only credible information source in the known universe is Obama.com


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:57:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pollsters how about looking at the source (none / 0)

objectively instead of outright denying it.  Clinton does do better in PA than Obama, but both will most likely still win it.  S.V. is a Republican polling company and tilts towards them, just like PPP is a democratic pollster and tilts towards them.

How about a fact based discussion...


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:06:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consider the source (2.00 / 2)

Yes, let's have a few facts:

Clinton does do better in PA than Obama, but both will most likely still win it.

Where's your "facts" that Obama will win PA?


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:12:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How about (none / 0)

the average of a majority of polling data giving him a slight lead.  Or Ed Rendell's words, I like Ed Rendell and think he is a good surrogate he plays tough but fair.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:18:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about (2.00 / 2)

I like these endorsements better:

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/endor sements/


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:42:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about (2.00 / 1)

Ed Rendell is on that list too, genius.


by Mostly on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:59:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Also RCP (2.00 / 1)

average:  both lead in PA, both lose in FL, Clinton wins in OH, but Obama leads in WA, WI, OR


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:20:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consider the source (none / 0)

No poll, especially ones 6 months before an election, can be considered factual as to what will happen. They're a statistical guess.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:55:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consider the source (2.00 / 1)

So doens't that make this wholy diary, or any diary based upon polling data this far out an excerise in futility?


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:01:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consider the source (none / 0)


Polls reflect current opinion, not future opinion.
The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:14:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consider the source (2.00 / 1)

But that's my whole point. As you noted above, what is happening currently is not necessarily indicitive of what is to come in Novemeber. Thus, does it really matter what a candidates negatives are now?


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:32:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consider the source (none / 0)

Hillary's negatives have been high for many years. That may indicate something worth considering.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:32:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Strategic Vision has Sen. Clinton (2.00 / 0)

Well, KV, he IS "special" as his wife keeps claiming. What more do we need to know?


by Tolstoy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:14:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Strategic Vision has Sen. Clinton (2.00 / 2)

Too many (around here at least) seem to think the only source of credible info is freerepublic.com --  judging by the way you they parrot its type of scurrilous attacks against Obama.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:50:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thw ABC/WaPo poll showed the opposite. (2.00 / 2)

As I note in my post, McCain hasn't been tested at all yet. We have been preoccupied with the primary.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:57:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:57:09 PM (2.00 / 3)

Right now it's effectively a 3-way contest which gives McInsane an unnatural advantge. When Hillary finally gives up the ghost, I'm guessing Obama will jump to big leads nationally and in states.

(That's what what happened when Perot first dropped out in 1992. Clinton had been in a long primary (with many "scandals" and bitter attacks against him) and was in third place; but he leapfrogged into the lead, which he never relenquished.)


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:10:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Would the same thing apply for Hillary? (2.00 / 0)

Polls Ive seen show YES, she would..

And her healthcare plan would mean thousands of dollars a year more in the pockets of people with pre-existing conditions, who will find that Obama's plan doesn't help them much at all, because it makes healthcare affordable FOR EMPLOYERS by shifting costs TO THEM.


public option=not affordable for middle. It cant cover all affordably, google adverse selection for why
by architek on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:24:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Would the same thing apply for Hillary? (none / 0)

Your reply doesn't match up with my comment.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:30:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thw ABC/WaPo poll showed the opposite. (2.00 / 0)

I disagree that McCain hasn't been tested. He's been through a two hellacious GOP nomination fights so far and has been a national figure since the 90s (and not always in a good way) yet he keeps bouncing back.


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:11:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This cycle. (2.00 / 1)

Sure, he came back in the GOP primary against an incredibly weak field. But he has not faced an ounce of scrutiny yet from the media or the Democrats because all the focus has been on Clinton-Obama.

The time will come when the spotlight gets turned on McCain. And I predict he will go down like Bob Dole.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This cycle. (2.00 / 1)

An INCREDIBLY weak field.  Like Kerry's field in 2004 - I like Howard Dean, but you know.

Here's another difference between Obama and Kerry/Gore - Obama has actually won a competitive primary.  Let's not forget Gore was beaten by Dukakis.  Yes, that Dukakis.


by Mostly on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:03:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This cycle. (1.00 / 1)

Imploding opposition and having your opponents thrown off a ballot is winning a primary? I know Obama supporters have some strange definitions of "hard" but this is really out there.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:17:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He's beating Hillary. (2.00 / 2)

I think that was the point.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:23:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He's beating Hillary. (2.00 / 0)

No the point was that he has won democratic primaires in the past. The voting isn't done yet and it's unlikely that Obama is going to win PA. Remember demographics are destiny and he has demographic problems.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:27:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And 'Numbers are just words' or something? (2.00 / 1)

Whatever. She can hang in there as long as she wants but she won't be the nominee.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:29:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And 'Numbers are just words' or something? (1.00 / 1)

Really? We'll see. What is losing PA going to do? Make Obama even more "electable" in the definition of his supporters?

I know it's likely that Obama is going to be the nominee. Too bad he's unelectable.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:33:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Unelectable based on what? (2.00 / 4)

Give me a break. Hillary is closer to unelectable than Obama by a wide margin. How does a candidate with unfavorables well above 50% win an election?

Obama gives us a shot. Hillary could win, too. But the odds with Obama are better under almost any current measure.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:35:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He's beating Hillary. (none / 0)

Bob Johnson is correct: I'm talking about this primary.  


by Mostly on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:44:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thw ABC/WaPo poll showed the opposite. (none / 0)

The John McCain of 2008 is a shadow of the man then, he has spent YEARS kissing the butt of the RR, and, sure, the MSM loves him, but Obama will cut him to ribbons in the debates.

He ran against the weakest group of looser ever assembled by a major party? Rudy? Mitt? Fred?

Hell, all he had to do was hang around, and even Huckabee beat those clowns?

He is stuck with some nightmare version of Reaganomics, which even Ronnie had to abandon when the stagflation hit.

But, McCain HAS to stay there, or his own party, which barely trusts him, will turn it's back?

Hell, he HAS to play the war card, and all Obama has to do is ask:

"What do you want your tax dollars spent on?  I'm betting NOT filling the already surplused coffers in Iraq?"

He can only play the hero card, and when gas is $4.50 a gallon and a half gallon of milk is about the same, no one will care he was the hero in Nam....


Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin and Joe the Plumber...The Triad of Republican Irrelevancy.
by WashStateBlue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:17:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thw ABC/WaPo poll showed the opposite. (2.00 / 1)

It should be fun to test him since he's screwing up all over the place when there isn't even any pressure yet.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ABC/WaPo poll showed HRC's Negatives at 56% (none / 0)

That's an insurmountable obstacle for any candidate to overcome in a race for president.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:20:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is that just PA? (2.00 / 1)

I ask because Obama beats McSame while McSame beats HRC nationally.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/president/national.html


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:57:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 0)

(and, yes, Clinton is headed for a win with only the margin to be determined)

It seems like a million years ago that everyone was saying, "and, yes, Clinton is headed for the nomination with only the margin to be determined."

But it was only a few short months ago. So much for surefire predictions.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:46:21 PM EST

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 3)

Here's a surefire prediction:

If Obama can't win two out of Pennsylvania, Ohio and Florida (which in his case means if he can't win Ohio and Pennsylvania) he will lose the election.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:59:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 0)

So, whoever wins the primary in a state wins the election?


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 2)

Show me where Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania are NOT crucial swing states. Clinton beats McCain in all three.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:10:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 2)

Depends. CO, VA, IA, WI, MO are in play with Obama.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:12:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 3)

You can't be serious. Next you'll be arguing KANSAS is "in play."


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:15:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 1)

Why would I do that?

Obama is up in CO, WI, & IA right now. He's within striking range in VA. Only MO seems far but he hasn't begun to campaign against McSame yet. Or at least the media hasn't yet turned its focus there.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:23:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please, save your fingers. (none / 0)

The facts just bounce off KnowVox.


by McNasty on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:50:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (none / 0)

Rasmussen shows McCain beating Obama in Wisconsin, 48 to 46. RCP average shows McCain beating Obama by 5 in Iowa. Rasmussen shows CO a toss up.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:02:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 1)

Exactly.

Do you really not understand what's going to happen once the Democrats have an official nominee?  The numbers now are incredibly encouraging.


by Mostly on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:04:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 1)

Do the math. Do you not understand that even carrying Iowa (8), Colorado (7) and WI (11) doesn't add up to PA (27), let alone FL (17) and OH (25)? This isn't about the NUMBER of states, but the electoral college.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:20:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (none / 0)

Nice moving of the goalposts.  We all agree that Obama has to win Pennsylvania.  You're the one throwing Ohio or Florida into it.

Pennsylvania, plus the other states that Obama wins but Clinton does not gives Obama a win.  Or, if you like, you can look at national polls.  Or, if you like, you can look at the little maps in the corner.

Or you can explain how someone who's distrusted by the majority of people is electable.


by Mostly on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:47:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (none / 0)

Weird how you go from specific to average to specific to suit your argument. The pollster average has Obama ahead by 3 in Iowa.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:21:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't forget (none / 0)

With a 50 state campaign I think SC, GA, and Mississippi could be in play.
However I think Obama will try playing more for the west, CO, NM, NV.

Because I wont trade humanity for patriotism!
by Drewid on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:33:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 1)

Obama loses Mo. He polls 10 pts or more behind McCain. He's tied in CO but so was Kerry in 2004. Betting on states that haven't been blue in decades is a losing strategy for sure.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:19:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 1)

Betting on states that have been blue+1 hasn't been a winning strategy.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:22:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 0)

Please throw a couple of links to recent polls that support your facts my way.


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:14:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As I said.... (2.00 / 2)

Show me where Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania are NOT crucial swing states. Clinton beats McCain in all three.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:17:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As I said.... (2.00 / 0)

Awesome. My question remains:


Clinton beats McCain in all three

According to who?


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:25:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As I said.... (none / 0)

Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x2882.xml?Rele aseID=1164


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:32:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As I said.... (2.00 / 1)

http://rasmussenreports.com/public_conte nt/politics/election_20082/2008_presiden tial_election/pennsylvania/election_2008 _pennsylvania_presidential_election


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:13:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

According to RealClearPolitcis poll averages... (2.00 / 3)

... Obama leads McCain in Pennsylvania and Clinton trails McCain in Florida.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:18:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 1)


   Obama beats McCain in two of them. what's your point?
by southernman on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:43:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (none / 0)

Clinton beats McCain in the general in FL?

With Crist and his machine with their thumbs on the scale?

Dream on....


Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin and Joe the Plumber...The Triad of Republican Irrelevancy.
by WashStateBlue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:20:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 1)

That's only true of Hillary Clinton.  Obama has states available to him that she doesn't; Virginia, which is trending Democratic, had a black governor in the recent past, and which he took by 19 points.  North Carolina and Georgia to a lesser extent.

Plus all of the states out west that are available to him - look at an electoral map and look at all the "solid red" states that he's beating McCain in - Colorado, Nevada, South Dakota - all of which Hillary Clinton loses.

The last two democratic challengers lost by just a few electors - picking up Ohio or Florida is like using a sledgehammer when you only need a little nudge.


by Mostly on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:03:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 1)

Problem is PA is essentio to a Democratic win. Wining South Dakota (Simply not going to happen for any dem) and coloroda (maybe) won't make up for this.


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:16:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

According to RealClearPolitics poll averages... (2.00 / 3)

... Obama is ahead of McCain in PA.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:19:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: According (2.00 / 0)

He's tied. With him losing in the most recent one--post snob gate.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:21:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 2)


   Losing the primary does not mean he loses the general election. That's absolutely absurd. No event in our political history supports such a position.
by southernman on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:42:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't bet the farm (2.00 / 2)

Write your prediction on a piece of toilet paper. At least that way it will have value and purpose.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:13:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here's a surefire answer to your prediction (2.00 / 6)


   In 2000, Bush lost AZ and NH to McCain...yet won them both in the general election.

  In 2000, Gore swept all primaries, yet lost many of those states in the general election.

  In 2004, Kerry won in IA in the primary, yet lost the general election. Kerry also lost in VT to a candidate no longer running, yet still easily won the state in the general.

  JFK lost Texas to LBJ, yet still won TX in the general.

  Just to answer...PRIMARY RESULTS DO NOT IN ANY WAY PREDICT GENERAL ELECTION RESULTS IN ANY STATE.

  It is absolutely ridiculous to claim otherwise.

  McCain won PA (assuming of course), OH and FL. Republicans haven't won PA since 1988...and you're claiming that if Hillary wins it, then Obama can't? You are pathetically out of touch with common sense political history.


by southernman on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:41:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Very nice comment!!! (none / 0)


by nwgates on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:49:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Very nice comment!!! (none / 0)

Absolutely is.  This entire arguement is completely rediculous.  

Trying to scare people to vote for someone based on polls for an election that is 7 months away is complete bs.  The only election that matters right now is between Clinton and Obama.  

If KnowVox and others cant wrap their minds around that, think of it in sport terms.  This is baseball.  It's the playoffs.  There are only 3 teams left in it for the world title.  One league's championship team won it in a sweep and is waiting around for the other league to be decided.  It's going to seven games....

... but you are trying to tell me that because The team that swept one league, and is thus currently favorable to win, will definitely win?  What the heck kind of arguement is that?  Seriously, it's a whole new series (election) when this one is decided.  And there is no way you can determine the outcome of the next election based on the results of this one.  

In fact, based on the performances of these two "teams" in this election, and the performance of the one that is waiting around for the winner, (and the level of competition he had to face to get there), I would definitely be betting on one of these two.  They are obviously stronger, more organized, more money, more support, more exposure, more debates, more vision, more hope for a future (and not more of McSame)

Like really man, what the heck are you talking about??  Either democrat (any democrat) is far more electable then any republican any time in the near future.  (and probably far future)  The only way these guys can win is by dividing our side.  (divide and conquer)

And based on most of your comments KnowVox, you do more of the dividing then most.  Get over it, and quit trying to scare people with what "might" happen.  


by herenow on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:06:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes, (2.00 / 2)

It's a recurring problem that is specific to her; she can't go on the attack against candidates who are more well liked than she is, and more trusted.  That includes both Obama and McCain.

The word "polarizing" comes to mind; she doesn't improve her standing or lower her opponent's so much as she solidifies opinions.  Witness the 30% of her voters who say they won't cross over to Obama, and compare that to the number of Obama supports who say the same thing.


by Mostly on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:47:59 PM EST

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes, (2.00 / 0)

Nice analysis Bob...


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:50:55 PM EST

Wow Bob, congratulations! (SNARK ALERT) (2.00 / 1)

Looks like you got that (your words) "Hillary Clinton is in bed with the VRWC" message out to a lot of folks.

No doubt, Karl is smiling today.

BTW, I'm still waiting on those links!

John


Never let the bullies win.
by SluggoJD on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:02:31 PM EST

Yup. (2.00 / 2)

I've heard the 'her negatives can't go any higher' argument for a year now. Nobody's ever been able to explain why, concretely why, that should be the case.

I've said from the start that Hillary was the weakest major Democratic candidate in this cycle. Her performance has consistently borne out that fact.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:04:58 PM EST

As always Bob (2.00 / 0)

Excellent analysis.
You should be a FPer here.
by parahammer on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:05:27 PM EST

Obama's negatives are also rising (2.00 / 1)

Not as high as Clinton's but much higher than they were.


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:08:46 PM EST

That's what a kitchen sink'll do to ya (none / 0)

His may be rising, but hers are absurd.  McCain lies between the two.  


by nwgates on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:51:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

One important point (2.00 / 2)

I think the analysis of HRC"s negatives is a good assemsent, now. But it doesn't follow that they will stay that way. Right now, there's no question she's behind Obama and has been getting bad press on  account of this. It's never good for your image to be lagging behind the front runner. If (and its a big if, I admit) she does win the nomintion, it would stand to reason that some of these negative might do down as the torrent of bad news about her campaign losing this primary or that endorsement would stop. If she won, we might well see a lot of positive articles about how she turned it around.


by Mayor McCheese on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:38:47 PM EST

Re: One important point (none / 0)

Yes, if she won the nomination, she would certainly see a spate of positive articles.

But, what is usually missing in her electability argument, is that Obama hasn't really vetted her.  He tries to keep it focussed on her Senate record, and her campaign issue.

The Republican's won't be so kind.  They've been building a case against her from the time she left office.  It will all come out.

The other problem then is, that Hillary will be Hillary.  I think Hillary has a lot to offer us as a politician, but she and Bill have worked against themselves in this campaign.  Bosnia is just one example, and Bill bringing it up again did Hillary no good.  

Yes, the Republicans now have fuel against Obama,  but Obama has shown that he can fight back.  Hillary has not yet been able to land a punch, nor has she shown that she can weather a problem.  Bosnia, Colombia, etc. all leave a bad taste that she doesn't address, she just walks away from it.

She claims to have withstood it before, but really, her campaigns in New York did not test her, Giuliani dropped out in the first election, and her opponent in the second was underfunded.

Obama has shown that he is amazing at campaigning, at running the campaign, at strategizing, and at standing tall during an onslaught.  

Obama is showing that he can stand up against the Republicans.  He especially demonstrates this as Hillary uses the  Rovian tactics against him.  

I suspect there are no more Obama secrets out there, I'm sure that Hillary and the Republicans would have used them by now.  For Hillary, however, the secrets keep coming out, almost on a daily basis.  They will not automatically stop if Hillary wins the nomination.

Obama is proving he can stand up to the Republicans in an amazing way.


by Kiku on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:26:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have been talking with her supporters in Iowa (none / 0)

while researching a diary I may write in a month or two. I am interested in what Clinton volunteers and staffers think she could have done differently to have had a better outcome here in January.

Of all the people I've talked to, only one has suggested that she should have gone negative on Obama before Iowa.

Even Hillary's supporters seem to recognize that going negative does not help her--especially not against Obama.

Going negative is more likely to work when the media want to collaborate with you (like the media did against Dean). Not going to happen for Clinton this year.


Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.
by desmoinesdem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:43:53 PM EST

Re: I have been talking with her supporters in Iow (2.00 / 1)

Obama has also innoculated himself (sort of) from direct negative attacks - you know, he can turn around and say "politics as usual".

Direct negative attacks aren't particularly Hillary Clinton's style - what she does is pretend she's being attacked.  She was doing it when she was the front-runner all the time: she called John Edwards charge that she had taken more PAC money than any candidate of either party "personal" and "right out of Karl Rove's playbook".  That's great, but you can't do that when you're behind, because the frontrunner is just going to ignore you.  She's in a spot she's never really been in before.

In New York, any chances Rick Lazio had of beating her were demolished when he made the unimaginably stupid move of crossing the platform at a debate and waving a pledge in front of her.


by Mostly on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:30:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

New kind of politics? (2.00 / 2)

Obama's entire campaign against Hillary has been to tear her down through negativity.  Republicans must love it.  All of the lies they they've been telling about Hillary Clinton are now being regurgitated by democrats.

Is that the politics of hope?  Is that the unity that Obama supporters talk about?  

Count me out.

* Obama campaign memo questions Hillary's 'willingness to adhere to the truth.' http://thepage.time.com/obama-camp-memo- on-clintons-exaggerations-in-her-domesti c-record/

Obama Campaign Manager accuses Hillary of having a 'real character gap' http://thepage.time.com/2008/03/23/obama -shes-just-trying-to-tear-me-down-and-th ats-not-the-kind-of-politics-weve-been-a bout/

Obama Campaign says Hillary failed the test of having 'the integrity to be consistent in her views.' http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsm emo.com/2008/03/obama_camp_blasts_hillar y_on_n.php

Obama campaign manager says Hillary is one of the 'most secretive politicians in America today.' http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0 308/Plouffe_You_have_to_wonder_whether_s hell_be_open_and_honest_with_the_America n_people.html

Wow.  These all sound like the very same talking points that the Republicans and George W. Bush said about Al Gore in 2000.  And now Senator Obama is doing the same thing to Hillary Clinton?  

What about when the Obama campaign calls Hillary Clinton Senator Punjab and then initially denies that they put out the memo?  Here is the memo: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pd f/politics/memo1.pdf

And here is more background: http://www.talkleft.com/story/2007/6/15/ 0634/74618

Does calling Hillary Clinton and her husband racists qualify as "tearing people down personally"?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/12 obama-camps-memo-on-clin_n_81205.html

Apparently Obama thought is was wrong that his campaign did that.  Here is the story from the debate in Las Vegas:

Asked by moderator Tim Russert whether, in hindsight, he regretted "pushing this story," Obama said, "Well, not only in hindsight, but going forward. I think that, as Hillary said, our supporters, our staff get overzealous. They start saying things that I would not say. And it is my responsibility to make sure that we're setting a clear tone in our campaign, and I take that responsibility very seriously, which is why I spoke yesterday and sent a message in case people were not clear that what we want to do is make sure that we focus on the issues."

But let's not take too much responsibility.  Senator Obama will just blame one of his staffers.  Again.  Besides, it's too late.  It's already out there.  The Clintons are racists. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/010 8/7944.html


by polson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:49:55 PM EST

Re: New kind of politics? (2.00 / 1)

you're not making hillary's case by saying, "Barack does it too!"
Fair or not, Hillary going negative doesn't help her gain traction it just brings up both her and Obama's negatives. I think Thom Hartmann said it best is that she needs to focus more on why we should vote for her not why we shouldn't vote for Obama.
by hnic357 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:02:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New kind of politics? (none / 0)

I know I've thought that over and again. She took forever to give people a reason to vote for her.  "Ready on Day 1"?  Okay, then why not Biden or Richardson?  Why her?  What's so different about her when I have all these other compelling narratives to choose from?

She finally sort of hit it in the run up to Texas - she repackaged herself as a modified John Edwards.


by Mostly on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:34:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New kind of politics? (2.00 / 1)

Two things that cement a campaign that she did not do.

First, message.  Everytime you turned around she was changing the message and even trying Obama's message, which made her look very uninventive, to say the least.

Next, she never humanized herself.  The Clinton Campaign always KNEW that her negatives needed to be addressed, BEFORE the campaign kicked off.  They decided not to address it.  So, these negatives just lingered and now have exploded, thanks to the Bosnia crap.

Hillary Clinton should have done a tour of the United States, prior, to jumping into the race.  Letting people see her up close and personal.

She did not do it.  All she said was "Ready on Day 1!!  I have the experience!!!"  And both of those memes have been knocked down and RETIRED.


by tracey webb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:25:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New kind of politics? (2.00 / 1)

The examples you sight are from negative. THose are in fact weaknesses that Hillary the candidate actually does have. Have you heard her explain her vote authorizing the Iraq war? Have you heard her explain why her healthcare taskforce met in secret? Embellishments in domestic record? Yes, ma'am. Only Hillary calls them misstatements.

This is campaigning pure and simple. THe alternative to not calling out your primary campaign on these issues is simply standing by watching your opponent say anything at all without impunity. If that's what you thought Obama meant by a new kind of politics you were really not paying attention.


by AHunch on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:17:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New kind of politics? (none / 0)

If Obama has been the negative one in the race, why do most Democrats (actually by a 3:1 margin in some polls) think Hillary has been the negative campaigner?


by amiches on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:19:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New kind of politics? (none / 0)

Okay, either you're wrong and Obama has managed to mount a strong lead against Clinton and run a cleaner campaign to boot, or you're right and it turns out he's been the one all along whose campaign is the most negative, and yet he's pulled the jedi mind trick of the century by convincing almost everyone that the opposite is true.

Either way, that's the guy I want on the ticket in the Fall.


by Mostly on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:48:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The GOP is terrified of Obama (none / 0)

Partly because of the contrast problem that they are going to have to deal with in running a 72-year old guy against a 46-year old guy. Partly because McCain is on the wrong side of the Iraq issue. But mostly because McCain is not going to have to money to go toe-to-toe with Obama across the country. The moment that McCain accepts matching funds for the GE, is the moment the election is over. McCain is simply a bad fund raiser. He has sewn up the nomination and he is still having trouble raising funds.

There is a very real chance that McCain is going to have to defend in Texas, Virginia and North Carolina. Defending in Texas alone would be enough to run through a big portion of McCain's war chest. Obama will need to defend some places as well, but he is going to have at almost unlimited funds to do so.

Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico are all trending blue and McCain will have to defend there as well. We have great Senate Candidates in New Mexico and Colorado who are going to take GOP seats, they will be a tremendous help for the Democratic Presidential candidate.

Forget about all the National polls right now, even though the results are mixed. The only numbers that matters is McCain's horrid fund raising totals in February and March. They point to a very big problem for him.


by johnnyappleseed on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:32:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The GOP is terrified of Obama (none / 0)

Texas is at least five different major media markets.  It's an uphill climb for democrats but not impossible - Republicans win it because it's so bloody expensive to campaign there and they always have the most money.


by Mostly on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:52:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New kind of politics? (none / 0)

The problem here is that these are in response to something Hillary has herself done.  

For example, the lack of credibility comment came, I believe, after her foreign policy claims were debunked: North Ireland, Macedonia, Kosovo, and then Bosnia.

When Obama's surrogates say something like that, they are just expressing the thoughts of many people watching the campaign.

Just as it's fair play for Hillary to comment on bitter, it's fair play for Obama to address these issues.

One of the differences between Obama and Hillary is that he has a better sense of timing.  He says it, and then moves on.  Hillary pushes it until people are sick of it and she's groused publicly.

Obama has been an amazing campaigner, whether you like him or not.  Hillary has proven tough too.


by Kiku on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:37:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New kind of politics? (none / 0)

I'm not saying that your wrong, but I've clicked on all of your links and they either do not work, you are linking the wrong articles or the articles do not backup what you are stating.  Can you fix them please.  In fact, one link is to a Mike Huckabee article    


by reggie23 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:26:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There is a difference (2.00 / 3)

between making attacks and dividing the party.  Part of politics is pointing out your opponents shortcomings.  Using traditionally Democratic issues as divisive wedges, even when your own attitudes are "screw 'em" (see Huffpo, if you haven't already, you will) is harmful to the party.  Questioning a person's character or ability is fair game.  I have no objections to her "experience" arguments.  I disagree, but I think they are valid.  Questioning his C-in C credentials is perfectly legit, saying the Repug nominee is better crosses the line.  Obama does not really need to push the "do anything to win" meme, she does that herself.


by nwgates on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:59:36 PM EST

Re: There is a difference (2.00 / 2)

She divided her base. The black vote is gone. It won't come back. She does what she feels she has to one race at a time. And she throws people under the bus as she goes. And she removes any doubts about how well Obama handles negative attacks. He turns them on his opponent. He will make a great president. Hillary will make an ok senator.


by kitebro on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:09:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Have you heard about this from WaPo? (2.00 / 2)

I put up a diary over on DKos earlier today about an article in today's Washington Post. A former partner of Mark Penn thinks Hillary should go even MORE negative, if you can believe that. He admits that would "harm the Democratic party", but he still thinks it's the way she should go. The main point of my post was that if Hillary follows this idiot's advice, then that'll probably be it for the undeclared Supers... they'll probably run AWAY from Hillary in droves.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/16/ 32535/2671/683/496640


by ratmach on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:03:11 PM EST

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes, (2.00 / 1)

Anyone predicting a 20 point blow out in PA Next week?
The campaign Obama has run is along the lines of Dean's 50 States. We lost twice...(well once)on the 14 State Plan.

Do folks truly believe that it was new folks coming out for Clinton that broke turn-out records?
I want a full ticket Dem land slide. Obama can deliver that.(even if some of you would rather vote McCain can I assume you will be supporting the rest of your Dem ticket?)


"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:11:58 PM EST

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes, (none / 0)

Obama is out spending her 3-1 there. She will still beat him easily. He cannot buy a big state.

We have not won one time in the last 40 years by running a perceived liberal. After the bad bet the Democratic party seems determined to make, I will be leaving the party.

If the Democrats are only in it to have fun and they aren't serious about winning why should I support them?

You show me a Democrat that is losing New York to the Republican at this point in the campaign and I will show you a sure loser. McCain is currently beating Obama in N.Y. and Ohio and Florida (by 15 pts, Hillary beats McCain by 1 pt).


by mmorang on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:15:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes, (2.00 / 2)

How much do you think being a former first lady, with built in support from the Pennsylvania machine, and having near world wide name recognition is worth?

Give me a dollar figure and then we can talk about how much is reasonable for Obama to spend to try to erase that deficit.

HRC has name recognition. She She honestly did not do much to earn it besides saying "I do", since NOBODY thinks that HRC the Junior Senator from New York has that kind of name recognition.

Go ahead and test it. Ask 10 random people if they know who the Senior Senator (whom has, by the way, quite a distinguished record) is.


Hell yeah we did.
by Darknesse on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:28:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes, (2.00 / 0)

So, in all the small states that went for Obama (and current polls show McCain beating Obama by as much as 30 pts) name recognition didn't matter that much? But in the big states whose demographics are much more representative of the nation as a whole, name recognition reigns supreme?

Ok, what about Texas and Ohio, where Hillary was out spent 3-1 and 4-1, respectively?

Why is McCain beating Obama in Florida by 15 pts and Hillary beating McCain there by 1 pt? Name recognition? This late in the game?

Why is Hillary beating Obama in Kentucky by 36 pts? Could it be that red states and cross-over voters have changed their minds about Obama as they have gotten to know him?

Do you realize the associations Obama has? Not just Wright, but the Chicago couple who are admitted terrorists? You think that will go over well in middle America? I don't.

He's extremely likable and could be president some day, but not this time. V.P. then president? Yes. But straight to the presidency after one practical year of national experience, It isn't going to happen. That is wishfull thinking of the worse kind.


by mmorang on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:49:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes, (none / 0)

YES!!

You proved my point. Thank you.

Small states, Obama was able to get his message out to everyone more effectively, which is why he tended to blow Hillary out.

Small RED states, he was able to get his message out to the small number of democrats there, so he won.

Large RED states, he couldn't get his message out fast enough to close the entirety of the gap (but he did win Texas).

Large BLUE states, Clinton had built in support from back when Obama was in the Illinois state legislature, so he has alot of catching up to do, hence the spending.

You had better hop on board the "wishful thinking express" because Obama is going to be our nominee, and if you are even close to correct (which I don't think  you are), we need all the help we can get.

By that logic, you should hurry and vote for Obama so that we can get this over with and start pounding McCain.


Hell yeah we did.
by Darknesse on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:57:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes, (2.00 / 0)

Obama won many of the small red states because of the anti-democratic caucus system. There won't be any of them in November. None of those states will go for him in November.

I don't need to get on any bandwagon. I vote for who I think should win.

As a general rule I don't vote for people who trash Democratic presidents and call people racists who aren't.


by mmorang on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:10:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Johnson's Dilemma: (2.00 / 0)

What does he do after next Tuesday?

I certainly hope he will not be "bitter".


by johnnygunn on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:40:53 PM EST

BJ has mad crush on Hillary (2.00 / 1)

In grade school he pulled pigtails. Same thing playing out here. :)

Don't fight it Bob! Open your heart and let it happen!


by catfish1 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:42:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton Doesn't Have a Dilemma, Obama Does (1.25 / 4)

If your upstart opponent calls you and your husband a racists and trashes your husband's record and distorts your record then you hit him back harder.

The Obama campaign already has many blacks thinking that the Clinton's are racists and that Bill Clinton's presidency wasn't all that good for blacks (even though the employment rate, the standard of living and college access all were at all time highs during his presidency). Clinton doesn't have a thing to lose by going after Obama.

The Obama campaign and the "progressive" media types have all put their finger on the scale in favor of Obama and against Clinton. Who cares if they are pissed off? I don't and I doubt that they do.

More importantly, the Clinton's know Obama is about to be slaughtered by McCain. Either she beats Obama or McCain is our next president.

The Democratic party already had its fairy-tale elections in 1972, 1984, 1988 and 2004. We ran perceived liberals and lost badly. If we do it again we might as well pull up the tent and call it a day and let some other party look out for the little guy.

News flash: McCain is beating Obama in New-Fucking-York. McCain is beating Obama in Ohio, PA and in Florida by 15 pts (Hillary beats McCain by 1 pt there).

If you run perceived liberals in the general election you lose badly. What is it about that time-proven fact is too hard to understand?

Message to Hillary: If someone pulls out a knife on you, you pull out a gun. If they pull out a gun you pull out a bazooka. Obama himself clearly implied that you will say or do anything to get elected; his campaign advisor said it straight out (yes, the same advisor who you helped get medical care for his daughter). These people have shown you and your husband nothing but contempt. GIVE THEM HELL!!!!


by mmorang on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:05:24 PM EST

Re: Clinton Doesn't Have a Dilemma, Obama Does (2.00 / 2)

Well...

since the right wing controls the media, and they are the ones that are going to paint WHOMEVER the Dems run as a "Liberal" we only have 2 options by your logic.

1: Fight it by electing whomever the hell we want and fighting them word for word, and not letting "Liberal" be a dirty word anymore.

2: Giving up and letting the Republicans choose BOTH nominees for the POTUS by running someone that is so far right that they can't possibly be perceived as a "liberal".

I choose 1.

I choose Obama.


Hell yeah we did.
by Darknesse on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:26:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Doesn't Have a Dilemma, Obama Does (none / 0)

You can't just call someone a liberal. They called Bill Clinton a liberal but it didn't work.

Air America is not controlled by Conservatives and they have been patently biased 24/7 for Obama and against Hillary. The same is true of so-called progressive Keith Olbermann...shameful.

They clearly are not about winning, they have some other agenda. I will not continue the sherade after November. I'll vote for the nominee and if it's Obama and he loses as predicted I am through with the Democratic party.


by mmorang on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:36:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Doesn't Have a Dilemma, Obama Does (none / 0)

Those are the exceptions rather than the rule, and you know it.

Isn't it possible that they ARE about winning, and see Obama as the best way to win? I mean, the polls agree, the electoral map agrees, and apparently so do the vast majority of people who voted in this primary (about +2 million if you figure out and then include the numbers of all the caucus goers).

Is it possible, JUST POSSIBLE that they are right, and you are wrong, my friend?


Hell yeah we did.
by Darknesse on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:41:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Doesn't Have a Dilemma, Obama Does (2.00 / 0)

I'll admit I am not on the same page as most Americans. I am progressive in a country of agressive conservatives. No, I don't think I'm wrong about Obama at all and history suggests I'm right.

If American's give Bush a 3rd term then I'll consider my options. I can always pay taxes in Canada.

Good luck with BO.


by mmorang on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:16:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Doesn't Have a Dilemma, Obama Does (none / 0)

Oh, and what is with the word "upstart"?

It brings me back to that sense of entitlement that HRC and her followers seem to have.


Hell yeah we did.
by Darknesse on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:37:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Doesn't Have a Dilemma, Obama Does (2.00 / 1)

Obama is running a campaign very similar to what Bill ran.

He won.

It's probably a good model.  There is little evidence that Obama will loose.  Once this nomination is over, then it's just McCain against Obama, and Hillary's spin won't be part of the equation, which it is now.


by Kiku on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:44:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Doesn't Have a Dilemma, Obama Does (2.00 / 0)

Current polls showing Obama losing in Florida by 15 pts and losing in OH, PA and New York aren't signs he's going to lose to McCain? Are yor kidding?

The man will have to fight for NEW YORK because they view McCAin as moderate there. The above states are crucial to Democrats. We can only afford to lose one of them.

No, Obama borrowed Clinton's "Hope" theme, but he's not running the same campaign at all. Clinton never trashed a former Democratic president. He also never called his opponents racists. That isn't good for party unity at all. Obama will lose many votes. He already has.


by mmorang on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:27:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Doesn't Have a Dilemma, Obama Does (none / 0)

This poll has Obama beating McCain in PA

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/president/nj/new_jersey_mccain_vs_o bama-250.html

Obama beating McCain in NJ

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/president/nj/new_jersey_mccain_vs_o bama-250.html

And McCain beating Clinton in Florida

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/president/fl/florida_mccain_vs_clin ton-417.html

And, again, what Bizzaro Universe do you Clinton people live in that John McCain is going to beat Obama in NY?

For goodness sakes, Check out Rasmussen:

Sunday, March 16, 2008
Advertisment
The latest Rasmussen Reports telephone survey in New York shows Hillary Clinton leading John McCain 50% to 38%. Barack Obama leads the Republican nominee by a nearly identical margin, 51% to 38%.

Come on, you Clinton people have some good points, then you go off in cloud cuckoo land with some doping statment like Obama is going to have to fight hard to win in NY?


Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin and Joe the Plumber...The Triad of Republican Irrelevancy.
by WashStateBlue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:41:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Doesn't Have a Dilemma, Obama Does (2.00 / 0)

PA is a very important swing state. You have Obama winning there, and you sight RealClearPolitics. Except you get it wrong.

PA- McCain BEATS Obama in PA TODAY by 10 pts. Hillary beats McCain by 6 pts in PA TODAY.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/latestpolls/index.html

Fl- McCain beats Obama by 15 pts per Rasmussen, the only poll in April. Hillary beats McCain by 1.

NJ- The newest polls in New Jersey are over 2 weeks old. One shows Obama by 5, the other shows McCain by 1. New Jersey is a BLUE state and shouldn't even be a contest. It is.

OH- The only poll in April for Ohio is Rasmussen. It has McCain beating Obama by 7 pts and Hillary by 5 pts.

Hillary clearly does better than Obama in swing states. Obama has lost working-class whites, Independents and open-minded Republicans. If the general elections were caucuses I would give him a chance. But they are not and he has none.


by mmorang on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:04:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Doesn't Have a Dilemma, Obama Does (none / 0)

"McCain is beating Obama in New-Fucking-York."

Well F'ing NY must be in some bizzaro universe cause before Obama loses to McCain in NY in the GE, Dick Cheney will reveal the members of the energy taskforce, then voluntarily submit to the Hague for war crimes trial!


Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin and Joe the Plumber...The Triad of Republican Irrelevancy.
by WashStateBlue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:50:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Doesn't Have a Dilemma, Obama Does (2.00 / 0)

PA- McCain BEATS Obama in PA TODAY by 10 pts. Hillary beats McCain by 6 pts in PA TODAY.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/latestpolls/index.html

Fl- McCain beats Obama by 15 pts per Rasmussen, the only poll in April. Hillary beats McCain by 1.

NJ- The newest polls in New Jersey are over 2 weeks old. One shows Obama by 5, the other shows McCain by 1. New Jersey is a BLUE state and shouldn't even be a contest. It is.

OH- The only poll in April for Ohio is Rasmussen. It has McCain beating Obama by 7 pts and Hillary by 5 pts.

Hillary clearly does better than Obama in swing states. Obama has lost working-class whites, Independents and open-minded Republicans. If the general elections were caucuses I would give him a chance. But they are not and he has none.


by mmorang on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:06:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Doesn't Have a Dilemma, Obama Does (none / 0)

Excellent points.

The far left is intoxicated with the fantasy of elevating one of their own to the highest office in the nation, thereby vindicating their cultural stance.

They mistake enthusiasm among the most far-left segments of the party as enthusiasm among the nation.  The coalition of the very far left, the African American vote, and endless caucuses in the Great Plains/Rockies will not suffice to win a general election.  There will be no caucuses in the fall and if Obama is elected, fantasy will meet reality, producing, as you mentioned, another 1988.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:46:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Since both Clinton and Obama are just left (none / 0)

of center, you are treading on thin ice when you talk about either one of them as very far left.  For Obama or Clinton to be very far left of you puts you pretty far onto the red side of the line.  


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:16:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Since both Clinton and Obama are just left (none / 0)

I was referring to the segments of the party to which they appeal, not their positions on any issues.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:45:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Since both Clinton and Obama are just left (2.00 / 1)

Which brings us back to the polls, which consistently show Obama leading Clinton.  Are they the far left?  Can't be.  Must be the African Americans then.  Perhaps the polls are all conducted in caucus-format?  That's it.


by Mostly on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:00:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bob Johnson's dilemma: he hearts Hillary (2.00 / 2)

and is fighting it. But deep down inside he is mad for her and hope she wins.

Come out of the closet, BJ! We are here for you waiting with open arms! :)


by catfish1 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:39:02 PM EST

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes, (2.00 / 1)

Every prediction by Clinton's most hardcore supporters has been wrong so far. Just last week an out-of-context quote from so-called 'bittergate' had "legs" (as alegre has pointed out in her 4 diaries on the subject), yet  a few days later every poll has shown it only hurt Hillary.  

Now, despite Hillary polling lower in trustworthiness and electability (not to mention popular vote), she's somehow the candidate who's better favored to win the GE. Facts are meaningless when those caught in the thrall of her celebrity just KNOW stuff is true. I'm looking forward to the spectacle after HRC's concession speech.  Maybe there will be another 150-strong protest on some street corner in New York.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:41:49 PM EST

Obama..... (none / 0)

"predicted" he had Texas, Ohio, RI; he didn't.


by soyousay on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:47:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama..... (none / 0)

I never thought he had OH or RI... and TX was a maybe, and he barely lost that (though he won the caucus).  You'd be right if you mentioned NH, though.  I guess we all thought he had it and were proven wrong.

That said, all this manufactured "he's going to lose the General" when Hillary's actually weaker in it by any standard is crap.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:51:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well to be honest.... (none / 0)

all three candidates have baggage.


by soyousay on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:09:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well to be honest.... (none / 0)

of course


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:54:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes, (none / 0)

Obama has been a good Democrat, he will serve the party well.

http://obamarecord.blogspot.com


by Kiku on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:46:19 PM EST

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes, (none / 0)

Clinton has been an excellent Democrat, and will serve the party even better.

http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category .php?can_id=55463


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:13:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes, (2.00 / 1)

And, she will CONTINUE to do so in the Senate for years to come....

I'm sure she will work hand in hand with President Obama, passing the Health Care Reform!


Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin and Joe the Plumber...The Triad of Republican Irrelevancy.
by WashStateBlue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:23:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes, (2.00 / 1)

I certainly hope she'll continue in a great senatorial career if she doesn't get the nomination. The Senate needs all the help it can get.

But then again, I'm not a New Yorker. I certainly hope she won't polarize democrats to the point where she can only muster lackluster support and we end up losing that seat to the dark side.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:59:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes, (none / 0)

I'm a New Yorker.  We have no idea what she does.

Seriously.  Everytime one of our Senators comes up in the news attached to some legislation or some judicial appointment or committee action, it's Chuck Schumer.  Hillary Clinton doesn't seem to really do anything (to be fair, her lack of seniority sort of prevents that - she's more of a "bully pulpit" Senator and less of a nuts-and-bolts legislator).


by Mostly on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:04:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Diarist fails to mention a very basic fact... (2.00 / 0)

ABC News WaPo (and other polls this week): Despite Hillary's increased negative, 6 out of 10 Dems want her to stay in the race until a clear winner is determined!

Yes, Mr. Johnson, it's not what you say, it's what you don't say.

More selective amnesia, I s'pose. As you're so quick to accuse us Hillary supporters...you just keep on "pumping it," don't ya'? LOL!


by bobswern on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:13:25 PM EST

Re: Diarist fails to mention a very basic fact... (2.00 / 1)

"6 out of 10 Dems want her to stay in the race until a clear winner is determined!"

Which should be right after he beats her in Indiana....

And, then, the math becomes clear enough, even Ed Rendell and Evan Bayh can not deny the writing on the wall....


Rush Limbaugh, Sara Palin and Joe the Plumber...The Triad of Republican Irrelevancy.
by WashStateBlue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:26:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Diarist fails to mention a very basic fact... (2.00 / 1)

She will be forced out because of NO MONEY.  You don't see that ca-ching machine racing over at the HRC camp do you?  Two things you must have to win elections, a message that reasonates (she never had that, but a bunch of slogans) and MONEY to get your message out there.


by tracey webb on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:30:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Where did I suggest she drop out? (none / 0)

I don't care if she never drops out. Hell, she might still be campaigning for the nomination on the day Obama beats McCain next November.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:42:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: (2.00 / 0)

This is just all so funny.  I'm seeing alot of desperation AND PROJECTING here folks.

It should be, "Clinton's Dilemma, let Obama bury himself, or help?"


by LindaSFNM on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:57:33 PM EST

You mean Clinton's unfavorables aren't really 56%? (2.00 / 1)

Or that 63% of Americans don;t really think she's untrustworthy?


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:40:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Then why are Obama supporters constantly... (2.00 / 0)

bitching about how negative she's going? You all should be happy. Personally, I don't think she's been nearly negative enough.


by JimR on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:21:57 PM EST

Hopefully, she'll go more negative... (2.00 / 1)

... as you suggest. I suspect that will hasten her exit from the race.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:37:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why are you crossposting your already posted diary (1.00 / 1)

at Dailykos Blog? If your target audience is the echo chamber of the KosWorld, you already got it. Why are you crossposting the same blog at MyDD? Are you seeking another congralulatory medallion from fellow Obama followers?


by louisprandtl on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:23:43 PM EST

Hilarious,What are the rules on cross-posting? (2.00 / 1)


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:39:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hilarious,What are the rules on cross-posting? (none / 0)

What's the point in the namecalling? I'm not a Hillary follower although the Obama supporters attitudes are working on a overdrive in that direction.  


by louisprandtl on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:40:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's a mystery to me (2.00 / 1)

why Democrats would even be considering running a candidate with 56% hard negatives.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:00:50 PM EST

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes, (2.00 / 1)

It's not just that Clinton fares worse the more negative she goes, it's that the more the voters are exposed to her, the less they like what they see and hear. Clinton cannot remedy this, because her campaign is all about her, her, her, and what she will do, has done, and her everlasting qualifications and experience, etc. Obama is not as wearisome to listen to in the long run because he has a habit of deflecting the focus away from himself and onto the voters, the coalition, at intervals in order to show this election is not just about him but something larger.  


Impeach Bush and Cheney.
by urban shocker on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:46:34 PM EST

I have a question (2.00 / 1)

which I posed in another diary.  Do any of the polls state WHY she has such high negatives? In other words are you making the assumption that it is because she attacked BO or did the poll actually ask that?

I say this because it could be due to the negative press she was receiving the last few weeks (Leahy asking her to withdraw, can't win and tuzla) - it may not be about BO at all....


by nikkid on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:57:05 PM EST

Re: I have a question (none / 0)

The poll had an "oversample" of African Americans and some consequent magic forumla chosen by the pollster applied to it.  Take it with a grain of salt.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:48:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: The more negative she goes (2.00 / 2)

One reflection of what Bob's talking about was in tonight's "debate."  When the questions were negative toward Obama (with Clinton sounding like a freeper, even randomly bringing up Farakkhan), the viewers felt Obama was doing better.  When it turned toward policy, those dials turned Clinton.  

But she can't just argue about policy.  She has to go for the low blows, and its destroying her.  


Saxby Chambliss
by bosdcla14 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:32:42 PM EST

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: (none / 0)

she can't just argue about policy.  She has to go for the low blows, and its destroying her

hahahahahaha.....

She can't argue about policy, so she has to go for the "low blows" and "it's destroying her"?!

bwahahahahahaha....

Are you daft? She blows everyone away on policy. She has more knowledge in her little pinky finger on policy than all the candidates put together. She's a policy wonk to her bones. Get real.

Clinton can beat McCain in the general election; Obama can not.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:34:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Dilemma: (none / 0)

Um...that's my point.  She's better on policy debates than he is, usually.  Yet she randomly brings up Farakkhan, had to get that dig in.  So "she can't just talk about policy" IE, CHOOSES not to simply beat him on policy arguments (which she would likely do) and leave him alone on other stuff, has to do the negative attacks herself even when they're being done for her.  

If you make negative attacks, it drives up both your and your opponents negatives.    


Saxby Chambliss
by bosdcla14 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:44:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your "conclusion" is not supported (none / 0)

Your conclusion that Clinton going "negative" only drives up her own negatives is not supported at all by your diary. For one, you need to define what you mean by going negative, and then define how the polls have been driven specifically by a reaction to that definition. Are her unfavorable numbers going up, or more accurately staying about the same, because of what you perceive to be her negative campaign tactics, or are they going up as a result of the Obama campaign's negative campaigning? You see, it works both ways. Negative campaigning is effective, that's why both sides do it.

This diary is nothing more than innuendo backed by highly spurious conclusions, but I've come to expect that from this mysteriously oft-recommended diarist.


by bouvougan on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:20:40 AM EST

Re: Your "conclusion" is not supported (none / 0)

You seem intelligent; you should know that polls don't speak to causality at all.  All you can do is look at trends and tie them to events at the time.


by Mostly on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:08:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your "conclusion" is not supported (none / 0)

I agree polls don't speak to causality, which is part of the point I'm making. You can look at trends, but it's awfully difficult to tie them to events like the diarist is trying to do here. There are too many events to make the claim that his cherry picked event is driving the trends. As I said, there is a dynamic working both sides here--negative campaigning from Clinton and Obama. Clinton's trend downward according to the cherry picked poll number could easily be attributed to Obama's negative campaign rather than her own.


by bouvougan on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:56:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Et Tu, Andrew? (none / 0)

Andrew Sullivan, one of Obama's big fans, described his performance [in the debate] thus:

It was a lifeless, exhausted, drained and dreary Obama we saw tonight. I've seen it before when he is tired, but this was his worst performance yet on national television. He seemed crushed and unable to react.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:10:22 AM EST

Re: Obama's Dilemma (none / 0)

"...what I saw of Hillary Clinton last night was extremely impressive. She really knows her issues -- and I've begun to develop a knee-jerk negative reaction to Barack Obama's response style in debates. The contrast between his brilliant oratory in speeches and his ability to respond to questions clearly is profound and depressing."

Steve Clemons, The Washington Note
http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:20:11 AM EST


You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.