Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama

Ben Smith watched last night's Compassion Forum on CNN and caught this answer from Hillary Clinton to a question regarding Barack Obama's recent comments:

"The characteriation of people in a way that really seemed to be elitist and out of touch is really something that we have to overcome," she said, turning to the Democratic Party's problem with religious voters in the past.

"The Democratic Party, to be very blunt about it, has been viewed as a party that didn't understand and respect the values and the way of life of many of our fellow Americans," she said.

"It did seem so much in line with what often we are charged with -- someone goes to a closed door funraiser in San Francisco and makes comments" that, she said, could be seen as "patronizing."

Clinton then repeated her suggestion that John Kerry and Al Gore had failed to be seen as respecting people of faith, said Obama is " a good man and a man of faith."

"We had two very good men, and men of faith, run for president in 2000 and 2004," she said. "Large segments of the electorate concluded that they did not really understand, or relate to, or respect their ways of life."

Smith also catches Obama's response:

Gore is probably the single most powerful superdelegate, and Obama begs to differ.

"Al Gore was mentioned earlier. I think Al Gore won," he says.

I think there could be an argument made that Al Gore and John Kerry didn't connect with voters, that they were out of touch. Certainly it's a meme that a lot of folks inside the Beltway seem to buy into, even if it's one that I don't think is particularly valid. And I don't think that Clinton, who has either been the first lady (of a state or the nation) or a Senator for 28 of the last 30 years and who along with her husband earned more than $100 million over the past seven years, would be the person to successfully make such an argument. However, I can understand one making that argument.

Yet it's not clear to me that such an argument especially helps Clinton, particularly given that Gore is the 800 pound gorilla in the room who has yet to endorse. Perhaps Clinton assumes that Gore will inevitably support Obama, so maligning him in a very public way will not decrease the likelihood of him endorsing her or increase the likelihood of him endorsing Obama. Maybe she's right, maybe she's wrong. Only Gore really knows the answer to that question.

But to the 51+ million Americans who voted for Gore in 2000 (more than had voted for any previous Democrat in history) and the 59+ million Americans who voted for Kerry in 2004 (again, more than had voted for any previous Democrat in history) -- the tens of millions of Americans who thought that both Gore and Kerry were very much in touch with them -- these comments could come off as at least a little condescending (in sort of the same manner that Obama's comments could come off as a little condescending). To narrow in a bit more, Gore and Kerry certainly spoke for me. They were in touch with the things that I, as an American and as a voter (at least in 2004), cared about. And I don't think I'm alone there.

So if Obama is "out of touch" (to use Clinton's wording) in the way that Gore and Kerry supposedly were -- Gore, who won the presidential election, only to have it be taken away by the Supreme Court, and Kerry, who received a greater share of the vote than any other previous challenger to an incumbent president during a time of war -- maybe that's not such a bad thing after all.



Display:


Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 4)

Your Title is incorrect.  Clinton did not say Gore or Kerry were out of touch, just that they were perceived as out of touch.


by DaveOinSF on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:18:46 PM EST

thats right (2.00 / 3)

everyone but hillary is seen as out of touch. Its magical.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:22:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

To me, Hillary seems MUCH warmer and down to earth (2.00 / 1)

Lets face it, Kerry was aloof and stiff. Gore was a little bit better, but neither were what we needed when we needed it.

Hillary is.

Obama is slick, but I don't trust him to do what he needs to do to help all of us. Its like he's already written off half of America.


public option=not affordable for middle. It cant cover all affordably, google adverse selection for why
by architek on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:30:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To me, Hillary seems MUCH warmer and down to e (2.00 / 3)

Its like he's already written off half of America.

as opposed to the ten-state, ignore the south and west strategy of Clinton and Penn.


by BlueinColorado on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:32:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ouch, that had to hurt (none / 0)


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Which states (2.00 / 3)

has Obama declared to be boutique states that don't matter?


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:37:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary seems MUCH warmer and down to earth? (2.00 / 1)

Every single detractor of Hillary I've ever seen has called her aloof and stiff. That is NOT what you hear about Obama. So again, waht was Clinton's reasoning here?


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:38:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary's Attack on Democrats worthy of Karl Rove (none / 0)

"The Democratic Party, to be very blunt about it, has been viewed as a party that didn't understand and respect the values and the way of life of many of our fellow Americans," she said.

Why would any REAL Democrat vote for a candidate who gives the Repugnicans this much help??


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:52:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 1)

Agreed.  Thank you for pointing out the obvious flaw to this post.


by Redstar on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:37:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

Actually she said that people felt that they did not respect their lifestyles, which is a fairly strong statement.


by wasder on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:41:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

Right. There's a difference between acknowledgeing a perception that exists and saying that it's true. Many people perceive Saddam Hussein as having a role in 9/11. This is simply fact. Not a fact that he did play a role but a fact that many people tell pollsters they believe this. Mentioning this isn't the same thing as saying Husseine really did play a role in 9/11.


by Mayor McCheese on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:04:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 1)

It's good that you use Saddam Hussein's connection with 9/11 as an example, because it illustrates what Hillary Clinton was doing.  When you say "people say" or "it is believed" it's a way of advancing an argument without taking responsibility for it.

"The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein attempted to purchase significant quantities of uranium in Africa."


by Mostly on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:42:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

Indeed. The fact that it was implied makes it all the more disingenuous.  Implication seems to be all that we've gotten from the Clinton campaign (and surrogates) from the beginning.

Thanks for phrasing your arguement so well.  That was my feeling on the subject but I don't know that I could've done it justice.


by Tenafly Viper on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:38:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

You are absolutely correct; Jonathan's entire premise in this post is that Senator Clinton asserted that Gore and Kerrey were out of touch.  In fact, Clinton correctly stated that the two of them, respectively, were painted as being out of touch.  That's why nobody is windsurfing in this election and they're bowling instead.  Now, is it really so profound to say that the two of them, like George Bush I, were seen as being out of touch?  Of course not.  Indeed, to paper over the notion that our last two nominees weren't perceived as being out of touch is to invite history to repeat itself in the form of continued GOP victories at the national level.


by bslev22 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:36:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed and further hie point was Republicans (none / 0)

would pound him with it just as they pounded Gore and Kerry.An that is just what they will do.  this is almost as good as I voted for it before I voted against it.  

So of course it won't show up among Democrats...it's a general election issue...and you r failure to talk about it thaat way is just putting your head in the sand.

The second part of your argument is disingenuous and made in bad faith as well...Comparing the Clinton's wealth.  When Bill and Hillary entered the White House they had only his governor's salary and her lawyer's salary.  That's it.  It was very well known that money was not important to them.If it was they had hundreds of opppurtunities to leave Arkansas and get rich elsewhere...Their income and the Obama's income are comparable except that they had even less money than the Obama's have now beause of his book royalties.

Bill and Hillary made the vast amount of their money from his speaking fees.  If Obama is a two term president and with his oratorical skills, he will be equally if not better compensated. He will make 100 million in 5 years not 7.

You want to deal with this issue....talk about it for the general elelction and how McCain will relish using it everyday.  That would be a real service to the Democratic party.


by debcoop on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:18:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bingo. (2.00 / 4)

Clinton just managed to say that the people who smeared Gore and Kerry as inauthentic, as fake, as elitist, and so on, had something of a point.

Infuriating.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:18:57 PM EST

No she didn't (none / 0)

She pointed out, truthfully, that this is a very large problem that arguably has just cost us two Presidential elections, and we should take precautions not to feed the beast.


by Trickster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:53:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wait, what?? (none / 0)

And it's not "feeding the beast" to jump on the "elitist" GOP-frame bandwagon in attacking Obama (all the worse because it has "uppity negro" all over its subtext)?

Vile.


by rhetoricus on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 07:14:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

SEEN as out of touch, very important (none / 0)

distinction my friend


DEMOCRATIC 08!
by rigsoHC on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:20:36 PM EST

Re: SEEN as out of touch, very important (2.00 / 1)

Wait a second. You want to "clarify" and "define" Clinton's words but you want to burn Obama for what most people see as truth. People are upset. I know because I volunteered in Ohio and Pennsylvania and I heard from about 30-40% of the people I spoke to in the rural towns where I knocked on 300-500 doors.

---
PerezPolitics.com


Obama 08!
by comingawakening on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:24:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

right... ill take your word for it (none / 0)

that most people think what he said is true, even though polls have shown most, except liberals disagree. I disagree with religion and gun part of it, everything else is fine with me. But yes, i do want to clarify, just as Obama clarified his statements...


DEMOCRATIC 08!
by rigsoHC on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:32:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: right... ill take your word for it (2.00 / 1)

So that means Hillary supporters will stop attacking Obama by deliberately misconstruing him (even after given a clear explanation) and saying he called all rural Americans bitter?  Looking forward to it!


by quixote27 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:35:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

didnt he callthem bitter? (none / 0)

didnt he say they clung to religion and guns? he said it... He has every right to defend/clarify his statements, and his opponents have every right to criticize it, very simple


DEMOCRATIC 08!
by rigsoHC on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:39:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: didnt he callthem bitter? (none / 0)

And he later explained what he meant by this - I'd be happy to link you to the explanation.  Either you now think he is lying about what he truly meant or that its "fair game" to continue to use the original  statement (or rather, the second sentence of the first statement).


by quixote27 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:41:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: didnt he callthem bitter? (none / 0)

BO made fair game the rule with Bosnia, period.  He is a hypocrite when he lives in a world where he can parse anything HRC says but we all have to put his words in context.  BS.

BO wants to play rough.  Good i hope HRC plays the same way that BO does.

david


by giusd on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:52:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: didnt he callthem bitter? (none / 0)

I can at least respect calling a spade a spade like you just did.  But you can't cry foul at this and say "What Hillary meant was" and at the same time tar Obama with a similarly explained sound bite.


by quixote27 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:59:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: didnt he callthem bitter? (none / 0)

Nope, Hillary said exactly what she meant to say - that Obama's remarks could be seen as condescending and she's right about that. What's going on in this thread is that people are trying to change the substance of what Clinton says to her criticizing Obama. himself, personally. She didn't do that.

What she did was to call Obama on his remarks. What's happening is that obama supporters are trying to change what she actually said so that they can criticize for that.

That's not parsing. That's bullshit.


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:52:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: didnt he callthem bitter? (none / 0)

"people are trying to change the substance of what Clinton says to her criticizing Obama. himself, personally. She didn't do that."

I'm not going to post the quote again, because I posted it below, but she specifically said "Obama is elitist and out of touch."  This is a direct quote so you still fail to respond to my original point.


by quixote27 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:06:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: didnt he callthem bitter? (none / 0)

The Bosnia statement doesn't need to be parsed. SHe lied. She is a lying liar who lied. I still love her dearly and wouldn't mind seeing her as President. But lets at least live in the world that actually exists. It is known as the real world. And in that world SHE LIED.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:29:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wrong (none / 0)

The word "lie" requires intent.  If you know anything at all about long-term human memory--which is notoriously inaccurate and unreliable--you know that there is no way under the sun to know that she intended to make a false statement, and that entire thing is a tempest in a teapot.


by Trickster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:30:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrong (none / 0)

You are right. Because there was nothing to be gained politically by the story she told... oh wait, yes there was. She "misspoke" repeatedly.

Look, I was not one of the people calling for her head on this and I am still not. But lets at least be honest and call it what it was, a lie.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:43:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So what if she repeated it? (none / 0)

That's what you do when your memory is off.  It's changing the story that would be evidence of lying.

As for gaining politically, only in some microscopic way at best.  Nobody thinks that being under fire is a qualification for President--or not, at least, until I heard a million Obama supporters talking about how it was a "crucial part of her claim to experience" after this controversy came to light.  So far as I know, nobody has ever run for dogcatcher on having been shot at, and while I don't know much about the history of dogcatcherial elections, I know plenty about Presidential elections.  

It was a detail in a story that in its entirety was a very small part of her claim to foreign policy experience.  I just don't see any rational reason at all to invent a lie about an event that many people attended* and thus risk the huge backlash that can fall on a political liar in order to gain a teeny-tiny resume inflation.

There is no reason to conclude for a fact that she intentionally lied.

*A lawyer must learn very early in her career that you risk your entire career by lying, and it's just not worth it.  Few successful lawyers play around with the truth, only the low-end types who don't have much to lose.  She almost undoubtedly had this drilled into her head in law school.


by Trickster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:00:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Did he really? (none / 0)

I've seen some later statements by him, but they carefully tap-danced around the whole clinging to religion and guns thing.  I don't see how you can explain a statement without mentioning the parts that need explaining the most.


by Trickster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:10:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SEEN as out of touch, very important (none / 0)

No, that's what she actually said.


by Trickster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:00:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 5)

She said last night that Gore lost and it was because of this.

But Gore got more votes both nationally and in Florida.

And she takes no responsibility for how Bill Clinton's sex life hurt Gore with culturally conservative voters.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:21:11 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 1)

In all fairness she has no responsibility in how Bill's sex life hurt Gore... the only person who has responsibility for that is Bill.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:30:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

This is baloney! Gore lost because he accepted the poor advice of his campaign manager, Donna Brazile who advised him to distance himself from a very popular Bill clinton who COULD have helped him.

He lost because he couldn't even win his own state, that is not Bill Clinton's fault.

He lost because the Supreme Court told everyone to stop counting the votes the very same thing that once again Donna Brazile, and now Obama and Dean are saying about Florida and Michigan.

Have you seen the new Rasmussen Fl matchups, obama gets crused by mcCain. I live in Fl and I can tell you that Obama willmost definitely NOT win FL. You will have crossover voters galore and the Cuban voters are very loyal to the repbulcian party, I guarantee that the Jewish voters in Boca Palm Beach, Aventura and North Miami will not overwhelmingly vote for him. The Red area of the state starting from the swing I-4 corridor from tampa to Orlando will not go for him as well Jacksonville and Tallahassee.

He will lose in IN and lose big in KY and WV. If he is the nominee, he will be hobbled. The Rezco trial just had it's star witness confirm a meeting with Auchi and Rezco where Obama was present. This is something that Obama claims that he may or may not have been there.

There will be more dirt coming out on him.


by shark on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:23:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

It will great to hear Gore endorse Obama within 72 hours.

I think Clinton is the most elitist person running for President. Even McCain is more down to Earth, though he will get my vote - ever.


Obama 08!
by comingawakening on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:22:30 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

she certainly doesn't have the personal resume, or the legislative history nor the platform of someone who is "elitist". From writing a legal brief while she was still in college that is one of the bedrock writings on children's rights and is still among the most frequently cited papers on the subject, to running the Legal Defense Corporation and sheltering it from budget cuts by the Reagan admin, to rounding up federal funds to build medical facilities for rural Arkansans, to creating a homeschooling program for families who couldn't afford to send their toddler to preschool, to SCHIP, to her pro-union support as a senator, her constant efforts of behalf of small business in New York, her attempt to link the minimum wage increases to congressional pay raises, her proposed expansion of SCHIP to families of four who make $82k a year, to her universal health care plan which expands Medicaid to  cover adults without children, to her support of universal pre-K, her college funding proposals - you just cannot paint her as out of touch. She is professionally in touch.

I think you ought to pay attention to what she actually does, as opposed to what the Obama camp says she does.


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:42:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Aren't we forgetting something (none / 0)

I sort of miss Yale, corporate law practice and Wall Mart in this resumé.


by hebi on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:53:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Aren't we forgetting something (none / 0)

At WalMart, she fought to expand the companies green practices and to increase wages and the number of women and minorities in management - at least, according to Sam Walton. So thank you for bringing that up.

No problem with Yale. And as for corporate law, are you suggesting that no one who has ever practiced corporate law has turned out to be a progressive legislator? LOL


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:23:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Aren't we forgetting something (none / 0)

I've heard her speak out for women and minorities at Wal Mart, but unfortunately she failed miserably.  Wal Mart still has the worst track record of promoting women, as evidenced by the plethora of law suits against them.  

Hillary didn't fight for workers rights while on the board.  She would have been laughed off the stage if she had.  Instead she sat in on meetings hosted by union busters (who also sat on the board) and never said one word while they talked about all of their progress in killing workers rights.

Hillary sat on the board of Wal Mart for herself and her own ambition.  I think it's completely disingenuous for anyone to say that she was there for humanitarian purposes.


by Tenafly Viper on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:52:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

What is this most cited paper? I'd like to look it up and can check its frequency of citation.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:17:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

Children Under The Law

Rodham Clinton received a Juris Doctor degree from Yale in 1973 and began a year of post-graduate study on children and medicine at the Yale Child Study Center. Her first scholarly paper, "Children Under the Law", was published in the Harvard Educational Review in late 1973 and became frequently cited in the field.


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:36:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

Google Scholar has it cited by ONE but I'll check other citation indexes -

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22c hildren+under+the+law%22+clinton&hl= en&lr=&btnG=Search


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:12:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

I don't see it cited by ANY law review on LexisNexis


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:16:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

So in what field was this cited?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:18:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And what of her support for.... (2.00 / 1)

NAFTA, and a draconian welfare reform bill, and her calculated opposition to intervening in the Balkans to stop ethnic cleansing, and her vote for the AUMF which she still defends and parses to the point of absurdity...and what exactly did she have to do with SCHIP again? Tell me how she stumped hard for real minimum wage increases back in the 90s. Big friend to unions, huh? Where's she been on unionization of Walmart and other retail and service sector workers?

What did she do for John Kerry and the Democratic party in 2004? Was she out there spending her voluminous working-class cache for our candidates, lending all of her hard-earned credibility as a defender of the American worker? How did she tune her ear to the street on health care reform in '93?

Look, if Hillary wants to leave a legislative legacy she ought to get to work on it. Nothing in her track record in Little Rock, the White House or the Senate tells me she's capable of making anything useful happen on a large scale. She can accuse Obama of being a zero on that score as well, but it's push at best for her. As it stands she's basically pissed on our heads and then tried to convince us that it's raining (especially with NAFTA). I fell for it the first two times - but there won't be a third.


by SuperTex on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:19:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And what of her support for.... (none / 0)

You mean, her well-documented opposition to NAFTA, her early support for American intervention in the Balkans? I love the way you guys ignore all the books written by and about actual principles in the administration and ignore what they have to say in favor of some third party hearsay.

And as for welfare reform - telling me that you prefer Reagan's welfare reform with it's draconian dollar in/dollar out proviso, simply says that you either don't know much about the welfare laws before hand, or that you're conservative and approve of jailing mothers for babysitting to earn Christmas money. I don't approve of all aspects of that bill, but a lot of it was a dramatic improvement over what we had. Reagan's dollar in/dollar out resulted in thousands of mothers winding up convicted of welfare fraud for insignificant amounts of money. And it left the Dems in the position of having Republican governors objecting to the harsher elements of the law.


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:44:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And what of her support for.... (none / 0)

Your NAFTA and Balkan statements are lies.


by SuperTex on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:56:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And what of her support for.... (none / 0)

LOL - Well, the historical record that predates by many years this run for the presidency is on my side, not yours.


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:32:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary Clinton just promised to renegotiate NAFTA (none / 0)

or dump it, if we can't get some changes..


Clinton Promises to Reform NAFTA

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Cl inton.html

"PITTSBURGH (AP) -- Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton told manufacturers and union workers on Monday that her husband made mistakes related to the North American Free Trade Agreement that she plans to fix.

Her comment came in response to a question by a union worker at a summit sponsored by the Alliance for American Manufacturing. The worker said President Clinton had tricked them when he championed NAFTA during his presidency.

''As smart as my husband is, he does make mistakes,'' Clinton said. The Democratic presidential candidate said she would fix problems that have led to job losses, or would tell Canada and Mexico the United States is pulling out of the agreement.

Trade policy is a key issue in Pennsylvania's Democratic primary on April 22. Many workers blame U.S. trade policy for taking away U.S. jobs.

Earlier at the same summit, Sen. Barack Obama in a separate appearance questioned Clinton's sincerity in her opposition to trade agreements."


public option=not affordable for middle. It cant cover all affordably, google adverse selection for why
by architek on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:33:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 3)

Thanks for the well reasoned, non hysterical diary.  There are certianly legs to this story, but maybe not the ones that Clinton would like.


by NewOaklandDem on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:22:36 PM EST

Alessandra Stanley covered this too (none / 0)

today in the NYT

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/14/us/pol itics/14watch.html?_r=1&ref=politics &oref=slogin

I can't wait until she replaces Maureen Dowd.

I think Clinton is touching on the fact that there were some key weaknesses in Gore and Kerry and that she can do better.  I've heard many Dems say this about those candidates - that they were weak nominees.

Gore endorsed Dean and that did Dean no good so hopefully Gore will just stay out of it.


by Molee on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:23:18 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 4)

Clinton's criticisms of Obama's "bitter" comments did not come off well in front of a labor audience.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 008/04/14/888068.aspx reports:

The New York senator brought up the issue near the top of a speech sponsored by the Alliance for American Manufacturing, to quite a few murmurs in the crowd.

"I understand my opponent came this morning and he spent a lot of his time attacking me," she said, before being interrupted with several seconds of murmurs and groans from the crowd. "Well, you know, I know that many of you, like me were disappointed by recent remarks that he made."

More groans and at least one "No" from the crowd.

"And I think it's important that, you know, we give people the chance to really compare and contrast us," Clinton continued. "You know, I am well aware that at a fundraiser in San Francisco, he said some things that many people in Pennsylvania and beyond Pennsylvania have found offensive."

A few more "No"s.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:23:23 PM EST

Hillary Being Beaten By Crickets (2.00 / 2)

Once again she goes out swinging wildly and the audience responds with dead silence. And again Obama plays the same venue and gets decent applause.

Here's a Pgh on line poll - looks grim for Hillary

http://www.post-gazette.com/polls/?pollI D=2467


by bernardpliers on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:30:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Being Beaten By Crickets (none / 0)

Ugly that fewer people think McCain is out of touch than do Obama or Clinton.


Matt Flynn
by Flynnieous on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:17:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Being Beaten By Crickets (2.00 / 1)

Even uglier is the reason why they believe that.  

This extended and bitter primary season is causing that narrative to occur.  The cycle is: Hillary attacks Obama on being out touch (or on whatever else she can) and then Obama must be on the defense and attack her for the very same thing.  All of this leaves Mccain unscathed and looking prime for the presidency.  

Can this be over soon?  If Hillary was truly so concerned that Obama/Gore/Kerry have painted themselves as out of touch (when she doesn't think that they are) why would she use a public venue to express that idea and thereby give it validity.  It's stupid concern trolling, befitting a bad blogger and not someone vying for the presidency.


by Tenafly Viper on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:05:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 1)

More groans and at least one "No" from the crowd.

Thank god. I'll say one thing about this election, people seem a lot more clued into what counts. Maybe the days of Chris Matthews/have-a-beer-with politics are over.


by BlueinColorado on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:34:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 1)

Or to America. Look at the Gallup numbers over the weekend. Lowest ever for Clinton. 40% to Obama's 50%.


Obama 08!
by comingawakening on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:04:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Suddenly nuance regains its' importance... (2.00 / 1)

Perhaps someone can demonstrate how Hillary is "in touch" with "average Americans", and why she is somehow any more electable than any of those three.

Frankly, she's the LAST person who has any business whatsoever making this argument, as someone who has been living on the taxpayer's money for 28 of the last 30 years. When was the last time she had to pay for gas or pay off student loans or an electric bill  that dipped into her grocery money?  


by SuperTex on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:26:12 PM EST

Re: Suddenly nuance regains its' importance... (2.00 / 1)

The Roosevelts were incredibly wealthy - both Franklin and Eleanor were raised in very, very privileged families. It's not about what resources you personally have. It's about having and embracing a global understanding of what is essential for making our economy work for everyone.

Clinton's life-long resume of working on issues that are essential to working class people more than demonstrates she gets that - and it's there over and over and over again in her proposed legislation as a senator, and in her platform.


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:45:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

Clinton may be on to something here.  Quick: does anyone know if Anthony Kennedy owns a gun?


by Ryan Anderson on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:27:26 PM EST

Gore won. But he still lost. (none / 0)

Otherwise, he would be sitting in the White House. The media hurt Al Gore by painting him as a liar, and the Supreme Court sealed the deal. Bill Clinton's sex life didn't cost him the election. But his running away from Clinton probably hurt him as much as anything. If he had asked Bill to campaign for him more, he would probably have won by a wide enough margin to keep Bush from stealing it. And Kerry was a terrible nominee. He nailed his own coffin shut with that video of him weaving back and forth in his speedos.


by georgiapeach on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:27:41 PM EST

I see (2.00 / 2)

so gore won, but he was out of touch with voters?


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:31:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Can you point out (none / 0)

where I said Gore was out of touch with voters? I doubt you can, because I didn't say it, and I don't think he was. At least not any more than any other politician. Kerry was a different story. Asking for a "huntin' license" while standing there in that ridiculous get-up is one example.


by georgiapeach on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:38:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I was reffering to (none / 0)

Hillary's comments.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:37:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gore won. But he still lost. (2.00 / 2)

There was a reason why Gore didn't have Clinton campaign for him -- He hurt him with culturally conservative voters.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:32:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The culturally conservative voters. (none / 0)

that Clinton hurt him with weren't going to vote for him anyway. Clinton could have helped him with the Democratic base.


by georgiapeach on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:32:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gore won. But he still lost. (2.00 / 1)

that video of him weaving back and forth in his speedos.

Huh. Sounds like you didn't see that video.


by BlueinColorado on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:35:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I saw the "flip-flopper" (none / 0)

campaign ad that the GOP made out of it.


by georgiapeach on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:39:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (1.00 / 1)

Hillary is waaaaaaaayyyy finished...God, I can't wait for her to go away, YUK!


by Hope Monger 2008 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:29:48 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (1.00 / 1)

We are making a mountain out of a mole hill on this one.  Gore and Kerry were both seen elitist (or least that is what Karl Rove made them out ot be).  Remember when Gore stood up and walked over to Bush during the debate and it made him seem overly snobby and Bush defelcted with a giggling "hello".  Bush connected.  Remember Gore saying he invented the internet? Hillary had a point about perception. Don't get me started on Kerry.  That was a hard vote in my opinion because Kerry wis an elitist snob.


by mashews on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:32:32 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 2)

Gore never said he invented the internet.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:33:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

Sorry.  I was typing to fast. I meant to tie Karl Rove and that together.  But I do love how most people jumped on me.  Sorry to have "misspoke".

What has happened to this site?


by mashews on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:32:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 3)

Thanks for adopting a GOP talking point about Gore inventing the internet even though he never said or claimed that.

Redstaters abound!


by mefck on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:39:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

TR'd for sourcing to GOP talking points (none / 0)


by bookish on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:19:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She wasn't maligning him (none / 0)

She was simply remarking that Obama's comment will increase the perception that many people have of the Democratic Party in general - that we are an elitist party, run by liberal radicals (many from San Francisco) who don't respect those who have views different from our own.  That is what she was saying, and it's entirely true.  She didn't paint Gore or Kerry as such, what she said is that a "perception" about them was successfully launched that they were out of touch and elitist.  Hillary praised both of them and deemed it unfortunate that such a distorted perception could be successful, but alas it was.  Regardless of whether you believe Gore won or not.  Hillary is speaking in a real world, and reality shows that many people probably didn't vote for Gore and Kerry because they felt they were elitist and out of touch.  The same will definitely hold true for Obama.


by unabashed dem on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:32:36 PM EST

Re: She wasn't maligning him (none / 0)

So if we should understand what Hillary said with a bit more nuance and sophistication, should the same hold true for Obama?  Or should Hillary and her supporters continue to REINFORCE the "elitist meme" by repeating the phrase ad naseum?   How very Lieberman-esque.


by quixote27 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:38:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She wasn't maligning him (none / 0)

Hillary was talking about what people perceived about Gore and Kerry. Obama talked about what people DO in response to poverty and he linked it to socioeconomic class - there's a gulf there.


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:48:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She wasn't maligning him (none / 0)

That doesn't answer my question and merely sets up a straw man.  I'm willing to chalk up what Hillary said to an explanation as thats how other people "percieved" Gore and Kerry if you're willing to say Obama meant that people focus more on social issues   because they grow disillusioned by the lack of response on economic issues.  You can't have it both ways - either both sides deserve some respect for being more nuanced than a sound-bite allows or neither person gets that benefit of the doubt.


by quixote27 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:56:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She wasn't maligning him (none / 0)

That is exactly what Hillary  said so you don't chalk it up. That isn't a restatement - it's pretty much a direct quote. What's happening in this thread is that Obama supporters are trying to pretend that she criticized Gore, Kerry and Obama directly. She didn't. She spoke directly to the impressions that Americans have.

"Large segments of the electorate concluded that they did not really understand, or relate to, or respect their ways of life."

None of that is an insult to Gore or Kerry. It's a reflection of polling data.

What a weird thread.


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:00:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She wasn't maligning him (none / 0)

May I ask how the "liberal radicals" or better yet "latte-sipping traitors" lines get tolerated in discussion between democratic party members?  

a) The real radicals are a tiny minority in the Bay Area, albeit a vocal one

b) Said liberal radicals are usually Green party members/naderites anyway

Somehow this frame of San Franciscans/Californians as liberal elitist radicals always comes down to environmentalism and home prices.  The former, I can understand if people think is radical (although I don't agree).  The latter, which is generally used as the elitist material--somehow it never occurs to the slurmeisters that maybe, just maybe, high real estate value means that working class families that live in California may actually struggle more than elsewhere due to cost of living...


by SoCalRefugee on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:25:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

Senator Clinton wasn't maligning anyone, she was stating the obvious.  That the republican machine and the media were successful at labeling Kerry and Gore as elitist and out of touch with the average american.  She wasn't saying they were.  And Obama will be easily labeled this way as well.  The Clintons know hot to combat this and will be able to win in November.


by karajan72 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:37:58 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't HILLARY labeling Obama (and the entire Democratic Party) as elitist and out-of-touch this time?  Isn't this a classic definition of triangulation?


by quixote27 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:39:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

No, she used the word "viewed". She didn't label them as such. She pointed out how many Americans view them.

"The Democratic Party, to be very blunt about it, has been viewed as a party that didn't understand and respect the values and the way of life of many of our fellow Americans," she said.


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 1)

No she did not. She bluntly called Obama an elitist.
Had she said from the beginning what's she is sort of saying on this stage, it might have been fair game, but sounding like a Fox megaphone doesn't do a Democratic candidate any good.
by hebi on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:59:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

Wrong - she said his comments could be seen that way - and she's right. Now, I happen to think he is elitiest and out of touch, but that wouldn't be an appropriate thing for someone to say in a campaign. She'd called him on his remarks - nothin' wrong with that.


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:48:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 1)

""Now, like some of you may have been, I was taken aback by the demeaning remarks Sen. Obama made about people in small town America. Sen. Obama's remarks are elitist and they are out of touch. They are not reflective of the values and beliefs of Americans. Certainly not the Americans that I know - not the Americans I grew up with, not the Americans I lived with in Arkansas or represent in New York."
~ Hillary Clinton, 4/12/08

Doesn't sound like she said they "could be seen that way."


by quixote27 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:55:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

She says his remarks are elitist - not him - and that those remarks are not reflective of the values of small town Americans.  How is that even remotely inappropriate campaign rhetoric? She neither misquoted him nor mischaracterized what he said.

And in the story above, she's talking about how segments of Americans see the Democratic party. That is a fact. Go read it again.


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:05:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

Lets get back to my original argument - she labled Obama as elitist. Not other people. Not rural Americans.  Not the Republicans. She, Hillary Clinton, called Barack Obama elitist and out of touch.  To say she only called his "remarks" elitist and therefore not Barack himself is silly. If I said "Hillary's remarks were lies" but then claimed I did not call her a liar would be ludicrous parsing.


by quixote27 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:16:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

Nope, that's a lie - she did not label him elitist. She labels his remarks as such.

You're attempting to mischaracterize what she said because there is no way to really issue with what she did say. He can say his remarks weren't elitist and that would be a valid response on his part - but that's about it.


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:23:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 1)

So I could say "Hillary's remarks are lies" and not be calling her a liar?  Thats a distinction without a difference.


by quixote27 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:26:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

Accusing someone of being a liar is a fundamentally different thing than acccusing someone of being an elitist. If you say that, you're probably going to be charged with providing the lies.

There is nothing even remotely inappropriate within the context of a Democratic campaign as labeling someone's remarks as elitist. You can't take issue with that, so you're pretending that she called him elitist.

And if it's a distincition without a difference, why do you cling to the debunked accusation that she called obama himself elitist? You know why as well as I do - there was nothing remarkable about the charge otherwise.


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:38:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

This just doesn't make sense to me.

First, you still haven't answer my question: if I said "Hillary's remarks about X are lies," have I called Hillary herself a liar?

Second, and more importantly, my precise point was a response to the original post (quoted fully below).  I don't care whether "that's politics" or not - thats a separate argument.  What I object to is claiming that she never labled Obama as an elitist.  Whether you say "his remarks are elitist" or "he is an elitist" is irrelevant - either way she is saying I MYSELF belief Obama is an elitist.  People hiding behind "other people will say" or "republicans will say" is what offends me because its simply not correct. She professed her individual belief that he is elitist.

We can debate the merits of whether its "fair" for her to say it, but one must at least admit she actually said it.

---Original Post----
Senator Clinton wasn't maligning anyone, she was stating the obvious.  That the republican machine and the media were successful at labeling Kerry and Gore as elitist and out of touch with the average american.  She wasn't saying they were.  And Obama will be easily labeled this way as well.  The Clintons know hot to combat this and will be able to win in November.


by quixote27 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:46:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

she didn't label him elitist - that is a non-debatable fact. She called his remarks elitist. And yes, there's a difference - we all say things we shouldn't. The reason you are so obsessed with this is that if she didn't call him an elitist, then you don't have anything to complain about.

As for this lies thing you keep bringing up - it's apples and oranges. Tell a lie is not the same thing as condescending to someone. Condescending is merely rude. Lying misleads people and causes them to make decisions that they wouldn't otherwise.


by Little Otter on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:17:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

Whether apples or oranges, you still didn't answer my question.


by quixote27 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:09:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How many quotes do you want (2.00 / 1)

First reaction of Clinton in Muncie, Indiana,

"Sen. Obama's remarks are elitist, and they are out of touch," Clinton said. "The people of faith I know don't 'cling to' religion because they're bitter. ... I also disagree with Sen. Obama's assertion that people in this country 'cling to guns' and have certain attitudes about immigration or trade simply out of frustration. People of all walks of life hunt -- and they enjoy doing so because it's an important part of their life, not because they are bitter."

She not only calls Obama's remarks elitist, she also missed logic 101.
You can argue that he didn't say it very clever, but he's absolutely not saying that religious people cling to faith because they are bitter.
Bitter people cling to faith is not the same statement as religious people cling to faith because they are bitter.

I'm probably giving her to much credit by assuming that that part of her statement is a mistake.


by hebi on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:08:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many quotes do you want (none / 0)

Nope, you're screwing up logic 101. Saying that bitter people cling to faith - which is what Obama, in point of FACT said - does not equal religious people being bitter.

You need to actually go read what Obama actually said because she' quoting him there, and she's quoting him in context.

"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them," Obama said. "And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:12:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many quotes do you want (none / 0)

"Nope, you're screwing up logic 101. Saying that bitter people cling to faith - which is what Obama, in point of FACT said - does not equal religious people being bitter"

Well, he actually said something different but logically your statement is correct. What Barack said does not equal religious people being bitter.

The problem is that Hillary is suggesting that it does equal to that.
She is saying this in a thinly veiled attempt to raise Baracks negatives with religious people. She's trying to suggest to them that Barack is saying that they (all religious Pennsylvanians) are bitter.
Silly season in politics indeed. Hillary is really underestimating the voters.


by hebi on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 07:49:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 1)

I wasn't talking about what she said about Gore and Kerry.  She didn't say "people will say Obama looks elitist and out of touch" she said "Obama IS elitist and out of touch."  Thats pretty clearly labeling him herself.  The fact that she says "our party will look this way to people" just adds an extra layer of triangulation.


by quixote27 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:02:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not that she doesn't have a point... (2.00 / 1)

it's that she poses precisely the same problem, and this is another episode of Clinton "projecting" her weaknesses onto others (when given an opening), with the hope of deflating the same arguments against her.
She can do this because Obama, by and large, won't attack her in this way. Remains to be seen if it will work enough to yank the rug out from under him.

Bill Clinton's sex life didn't cost him the election. But his running away from Clinton probably hurt him as much as anything. If he had asked Bill to campaign for him more, he would probably have won by a wide enough margin to keep Bush from stealing it.

Really? Like, the same way he helped so many down-ballot Democrats hold and pick up seats during his tenure in office? Clinton's "sex life" (if we must call it that) may not have cost him a 3-way election, but it also never got him a popular majority either, and the party suffered historical losses while he an Hillary flourished.  You'll have to do better than that if you want to convince the rank-and-file to walk over that cliff again.


by SuperTex on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:38:37 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 3)

Given how the right and talk radio will be jumping all over this, I cannot see how echoing the talking points of the right in a Democratic primary will be in any way acceptable or beneficial to Senator Clinton.

Not everything is fair game, and now that Penn is gone (is he?) who can we blame when the "elitist" label backfires on the Clinton camp? You should've left it alone, Senator Clinton. You should've thrown Obama a rope like he did for Biden during that Iowa debate. But it seems you're incapable of such niceties.


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:39:02 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 1)

Lizard--you are right. Hillary would have been much better off, and gotten way more mileage out of it, if she had just said something like "while I don't necessarily agree with Senator OBama's assessment, I will leave it to others to analyze his comments." But yes, she doesn't not possess the requisite political sense to stay above the fray.


by wasder on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:45:59 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 1)


Clintton did not say Gore and Kerry WERE elitist, fake, out-of-touch, but successfully portrayed as so by the GOP, resulting in Preident George W Bush for 2 terms.
Infuriating, yes, but also factual.
Historic American Populism pits "Powerful Elites" vs "The People."
"The Elites" continues to be a powerful concept in American politics. For Democrats, the Wealthy are elites.  For GOP, elites are Democrats in Academia, in the media, in government.
It's Us vs Them in every election.
The winner is candidate who can convince more voters that he/she is "us," and will fight for "us."
by CLK on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:51:21 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 1)

I'd like to see what the polls said about that back in 2000 and 2004 - I think she's addressing what the polls told us back then. I think both were literally perceived as being out of touch by huge chunks of the country. She didn't say majority. Nor did she say that Gore or Kerry lost.


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:55:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama should be commended for telling the truth (2.00 / 1)

This "bitter" fiasco has been manufactured by hillary and the stupid media.  Obama is telling the truth and americans know it.  Obama is the only candidate with the courage and integrity to tell it like it is.  People are bitter out there, and they turn to things to take it out on, like immigrants, etc.  I see it all over the country.

If americans can't handle the truth, and believe Hillary's dishonest framing of this issue, then they deserve a Bush 3rd term under Grandpa McCain.

It's Hillary and McCain, and the media, that are out of touch.  The clinton's made over $100m in the last 10 years, while Obama was out pounding the streets helping the working people of this country.


by poggy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:54:29 PM EST

Wrong statement (2.00 / 1)

You're not getting what's offensive - and it is offensive - about Obama's remarks. It's not that he said that people are bitter (although that was plenty stupid), it's that he condescended to rural families and said they turned to guns, and religion because they were bitter. He made a classic, snotty, suburban remark about why people in small town communities are devoted to the churches they are devoted to and to their gun culture. Lastly, he observed, bizarrely that they become racist bigots because of it.

No one likes to be analyzed like a lab specimen and be pronouced this or that by someone outside their community - no one.

Had Obama said instead that people are angry about losing high paying jobs, and see their lifestyle slipping away and the GOP is brilliant at pushing those buttons, he would have been okay. He didn't do that. He condescended.

I don't think it's going to hurt him in the primary. I think it'll be used to great effect against him in the general.


by Little Otter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:02:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrong statement (none / 0)

Almost none of the Obama supporters will touch on  what he actually said in total. I don't think he hates religious people, but saying that people cling to it because times are tough, is in fact a comptemtous statement. It sounds quite a bit like what I have heard any number of smug atheiests say when tring to needle those with religious beliefs.


by Mayor McCheese on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:20:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 2)

I want to make a point about Clinton's reaction to Obama's remarks that I have not seen others make. Specifically as a gay man, I want to explain why his comments rang true for me, and why her reaction to them exemplifies why I will never support Clinton.

As a gay man, I watched as Bill Clinton signed away my federal marriage rights.  I watched as President Clinton signed away my right to be honest about who I am and still keep my job in our armed services.

I have watched 8 years of media-wide and country-wide gay bashing by a huge majority of the population of this country.

I have watched as state after state have passed, for the first time ever, constitutional amendments limiting a group of citizens rights rather than expanding them.

I have watched as an entire religious movement has coalesced and flourished around the idea that I am a second class citizen, that the best thing you can say about me is "to hate the sin but love the sinner."

Having seen all of this, I would very much like to know a good reason why my fellow citizens feel it has been excusable to treat gay people this way.

I actually found that Obama once again had the only even remotely understandable (and frankly the most generous) explanation of this countries attitudes regarding human rights as they relate to gay people.

Everyone, including Hillary Clinton, knows Obama was right.  People close down and look for scapegoats as their own prosperities grind to a halt. This is an understandable reaction.  But it does not make it right.

And it certainly does not excuse Clinton's attempt to capitalize on Obama's accurate and honest assessment of why people have the attitudes towards gay people that they have displayed during the Bush and Clinton presidencies.

In her attacks on Obama's "bitterness", Clinton is implicitly saying it is an acceptable, defensible  part of people's belief system for them to be bigots towards gay people.

And this is precisely the reason I could never support Clinton. Nothing is beyond reproach for her or her political machine.


Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~Thomas A. Edison
by mattjfogarty on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:59:53 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 1)

Great post - agree 100%.


by interestedbystander on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:07:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

As a gay man, how do you feel about Obama using an anti gay bigot like McClurkin as an advance man?


by Mayor McCheese on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:18:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

Another gay man here. Former member of ACT-UP. Marched in first Pride in 1976. Lost several lovers and many friends to AIDS. And I will never vote for Obama.

Think you are wrong on several factual points. DADT was a major improvement when enacted. Before, the policy had been court martials, military prisons and dishonorable discharges. Clinton signed a law that let gay people receive honorable discharges and keep benefits. Your statement is simply false.

DOMA was put in place by the Republicans, who had the votes to pass it over a veto. We have a coalition with Clinton, not a suicide pact.

Clinton also opened up Federal employment to gays, on an equal basis. He also made it possible for us to get security clearances. Followed this up by putting openly gay people in government. In positions both visible and invisible.

You think the religious right has been around for only 8 years? I can remember them from 30 years ago. They have nowhere near the influence and strength they had then.

What I find most telling about Obama is that he apparently has no prominent openly gay people around him. During the preacher fiascos not one well known gay or lesbian spoke on his behalf. Now that he needs our votes, he turns on the  progay schtick. But there is nothing behind it.


by DaleA on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:21:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton slanders Gore, Kerry, and San Francisco (2.00 / 2)

don't forget she added that he said it in SF, again playing to the bigoted base of her new constituency, the Hatemongers.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:01:05 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 1)

I think America knows better than Clinton...

http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/0414 08DailyUpdateGraph1_b1v9n2.gif


Obama 08!
by comingawakening on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:03:02 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 1)

Two points:

1. How about actually reading Hillary's statement? "We had two very good men, and men of faith, run for president in 2000 and 2004," she said. "Large segments of the electorate concluded that they did not really understand, or relate to, or respect their ways of life." She didn't say that SHE felt that way about either man, and she didn't say that either man lost the election because of it - she simply said that "large segments of the electorate" felt that way. I don't know how anyone can argue with a straight face that that statement isn't true. However ridiculous we may think it was, an awful lot of people DID feel that George W. Bush was more in touch with who they were than either Gore or Kerry.

2. For the last frackin' time, "elitism" is an attitude. It has nothing whatsoever to do with an individual's socioeconomic class or educational attainment. Bobby Kennedy, for instance, was certainly not from the working class, but he was no elitist. Any of us should be able to think of dozens of wealthy and/or highly educated people who have worked their hearts out for people less fortunate than they, and who have managed to do so without the "Lord of the Manor" condescension that sometimes seems to characterize Barack's less scripted statements.

Full disclosure: I support Hillary, but I intend to support Obama in the GE if he gets the nomination. However, I sincerely hope he figures out a way to connect more genuinely with ordinary people, and I hope he does it fast.


Rules for Life: Do not annoy others; Do not be too easily annoyed.
by Not the only Dem in KS on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:05:32 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

I appreciate your reasoned opinion on this, but don't you agree that the same arguments you make for Clinton hold for Obama as well?

1) Read the entire statement - everyone has quoted him totally out of context here and has simply not acknowledged his further explanation.

2) If elitism is an attitude, how is it elitist to say "people are pissed off because we haven't helped them and we should do something about it".  It seems much more elitist to say "don't worry, stiff upper lip, you'll be fine."


by quixote27 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:13:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

I really do try to be fair to both Hillary and Obama, but there's a difference here. I'm not saying to read what Hillary said "in context" - I'm just saying "read it." I'm not sure how the context of Barack's statement improves its tone, anyway. His subsequent explanations are helpful with regard to the substance of what he said, but they don't really address the problem of the statment's political tone-deafness. Barack again has broken the first rule of politics: Never get yourself in a situation where a 30-second soundbite has to be explained in a 30-minute speech.

On your second point, if Barack had merely said what you said, there wouldn't be a problem here. If you are honest with yourself, you know that. It would have been completely un-newsworthy. And if Hillary had said "don't worry, stiff upper lip, you'll be fine," that would have, indeed, been worse. But, of course, she didn't. I have listened to and read the transcript of exactly what Barack said, and there is just no way I can avoid the condescending tone of it. It's not that his statement showed a total lack of sympathy with the people he was describing, and it's not that what he said was wholly without merit, it's just that he said it in a way that so clearly differentiated himself and his audience from "those people." It just makes me cringe.


Rules for Life: Do not annoy others; Do not be too easily annoyed.
by Not the only Dem in KS on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:41:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

I think its totally fair to read it the way you do (and appreciate having a sane conversation for once here) though I think reasonable people can vary in their degree of how bad they think it is.  Clearly, even BO conceded he didn't say what he wanted properly.

But my question is whether how Hillary is handling is acceptable?  Putting aside "all's fair in love and politics" or whatever, doesn't it get equally under your skin when she uses a statement in a way she knows is not how he meant it?  Put aside the "But Barack did the same thing when he said..." argument for the time being, because I might agree with you that he shouldn't have attacked her for a particular item.  I just don't see how someone who wants to have the Democratic Party as a whole improve in the three branches can feel good about the way Hillary is handling this issue.


by quixote27 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:00:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

Ah, yes, "reasonable people" - they've certainly become an endangered species out here on the Internets, haven't they?

It always annoys me when politicians play that game, no matter who they are, mostly because it's such an obvious game. If I were Hillary, I would have let the whole thing play out on its own. Everyone else (even the MSM) seemed to be doing a pretty good job making a big deal out of it, so it didn't seem to require her to push it along. When she started her statement last night by saying, "I'll let Barack speak for himself," I thought, "Cool. She's going to let Campbell Brown skewer Obama and remain above the fray." But, no, she couldn't resist. Pooh! I know you said to put aside the "Barack did the same thing" argument, but I really have to say that he HAS done the same thing repeatedly, and it's just as annoying and, in my view, just as counter-productive.


Rules for Life: Do not annoy others; Do not be too easily annoyed.
by Not the only Dem in KS on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:30:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And again, the pretension that Clinton (2.00 / 2)

can't be seen or painted as elitist and out of touch is beyond ridiculous. The very idea that she believes it's her mission to save Democrats - the American people can only be next - from themselves is utterly presumptuous, and in fact it's been her calling card for the right wing machine for 16 years: I know what's best for you, you need ME to fix it for you, to "fight" for you, because you're either not smart enough to know what's best for you, or (this is the new one) you're too busy working your ass off to pay the bills to figure it out (yeah, why's that?)

She has defined sanctimonious, mealy-mouthed liberal elitism to over half the country for the last 16 years (fairly or not - it is what it is), and we're supposed to believe that SHE'S the one who's going to upend that perception problem for us, and OBAMA is the unelectable one?


by SuperTex on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:32:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

"Al Gore was mentioned earlier. I think Al Gore won," he says.

How could Al Gore have won in Obama land?  Florida votes don't count in Obama land

He was for Democracy before he was against it and now he is for it again?


by DTaylor on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:11:18 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

Noooo, FL votes don't count because they violated the rules as established PRIOR TO THE PRIMARY.  You may (somewhat rightfully) feel the rules are stupid, but they are the rules we all agreed to from the beginning.  Any ex post argument to say "they should have been counted" is inevitably partisan.  If Obama were demanding for FL votes to count, you'd be arguing from the opposite position.


by quixote27 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:17:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

re (none / 0)

Bill and Hillary lived in the White House for 8 years, THATS winning...Gore and Kerry lost to GEORGE W. BUSH! The 2000 election should never have been close enough to steal but Gore ran a crappy campaign, he picked LIEBERMAN as a running mate does anyone not remember that?

Kerry was awful, should have been Edwards


by rossinatl on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:41:35 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 2)

Throwing Kerry and Gore under the political bus is just pure stuipidity.  Then again, virtually everything HRC has touched this year has been idiotic.  

I am meeting new people daily that is like me:  admiring what the Clinton presidency had accomplished but disgusted (surprisingly) by Hillary and her despicable tactics!  Are you guys seeing this at your neck of the woods?  


by sbbonerad on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:46:41 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

you guys beter wake there it noing to be a democrat party if hillary do not given the republican everything they need to come to destory this party.and the onily reason they want hillary to win is because her and mccain are in the piper hand and they have to pay up  the lossyistgot money on mccain and hilly the same people so they do not want barack in the middle because he do not own him but if they get hillary or mccain the pie piper can set and wake because either way they will not loses so obama is in there way because his money come from the people it do not take a rocket sciencest to see that.


by bornademocracy53 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:56:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (2.00 / 1)

HRC is trying to do something similar to what BO did... talk about "why people vote". She (and he) are taking shop. But, talking in two entirely different contexts.

She's pointing to the lessons of the Gore and Kerry losses and implying that history might repeat itself. Her basic argument at this point is making the case that "Obama CAN'T win." She's desperate to sell that idea.

Obama has avoided making the case that "Hillary CAN'T win." He seems to prefer to let voters provide those clues rather than polls or guesses.

"Hillary CAN'T win." is a conclusion I happen to believe... just so you know... I never thought she could be elected. I feel that more strongly as I see her wrestle with a good opponent.

Obama also tried to position the voting habits of people in the rust belt and the issues they align with:

1. Guns and the messages from the NRA w.r.t. who to support.

  1. God: GWB used the leverage here and made a new Repub base just by aligning with the Christian Right around abortion, prayer in schools, and the intergration of Church and State.
  2. Illegal Immigration: see Lou Dobbs for this new lever at work.

But now the context of these "political lessons" is important... crucial.

Obama was speaking to a group of supporters and the question was "How can we relate to the typical PA voter that needs to be convinced to support you?" His answer was an attempt to explain the issues and difficulties a volunteer would face. NOTE: One of the supporters turned out to be less than that... more of a mole that was eager to expose a soundbite without any context. And she nailed a doozy. Obama let his guard down and talked shop "in public". Yes, we'd like such candid disclosure from the HRC campaign about what they are actually thinking these days...

Now, what Hillary is doing is IMHO totally unacceptable in a primary. She's attacking the character of an opponent for personal benefit within the same party. GWB did this to McCane.

Maybe my preference for the messages and style of Obama make it difficult for me to see him doing anything similar. But, I think the results speak for themselves... HRC looses support when she goes negative. I'm expecting the dust to settle on this kerfuffle the same way the Rev Wright issue did... as Obama talks to the issue people will see that he isn't someone that looks down on any particular group but someone that will err on the side of the poor and the disenfranchised... without respect to race, religion, gender or sexual preference.

That's why I'm hoping PA speaks up for the candidate with the most integrity and sees through the self-serving manipulation... and this phase of the nomination process is ended.

NOTE: PA didn't get to pick the Republican candidate either. Why? Because at some point before the convention it's usually OVER. That's a good thing democrats. That indicates that a party represents a measureable point of view.

Our party is actually a mix of agendas of people that can't vote republican to get what they want. There are a dozen reasons why. Maybe this era of the America can creating some unifying messages to invigorate the party once more.

One can only hope... hope = good. Hope is really the only lever we have worth pulling to get something done. All the other levers divide us and make it appear that we are learning democracy from Iraq's problems and NOT showing them a model of compromise and fairness that works for all.


by mcdtracy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 07:16:54 PM EST

Re: Clinton: Gore, Kerry Out of Touch; So Is Obama (none / 0)

jonathan, i see where you're coming from, but i respectfully disagree.  as a loyal democrat who worked on gore's campaign, i can easily see where gore came across as elitist and out of touch with the pulse of the public at large.  (the aura of "i'm so much smarter than you" coming from him was at times palpable)  and as for kerry, well, he resonated even less for me than gore did.  indeed, far, far less--with one of the main reasons for that being kerry's liberal-elitist vibe, which was a turnoff for me.

in fact, i think the glib arrogance demonstrated by both of them in eschewing bill clinton--gore by distancing himself from bill's administration in 2000, and kerry by ignoring bill's campaign advice in 2004--is the flip side of the very elitism hillary is alluding to!  which is why i find it ironic that hillary's being criticized for an all-too-valid foible that (pre-2001) gore, kerry, and obama have in common.  not only do i think she's right, i think it's dangerous and arrogant for democrats to ignore history just because she's the one describing it.  i'm a loyal democrat, and i still get annoyed as heck by the elitism i see TODAY and EVERY day WITHIN OUR OWN PARTY.  (exhibit a is the obama blogs.)

here's a crude analogy:  a poor farmer, by pointing out a rich yuppie's elitism, does not thereby become an elitist (against elitists), does he?  i mean, that makes no sense.  well the same goes for criticizing hillary for making a valid point.  and i don't want to hear about how she's rich or went to elite schools, ad nauseum infinitum--there's a reason why she does well with the rural vote, and a reason why she's made inroads in upstate new york.  her ATTITUDE toward them is one of respect and care.  i really don't think a privileged liberal like me is in a place to declare indignation just because her attitude toward me is not as solicitous.  after all, i thought i was a democrat.


by nance on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:31:00 PM EST

I was and still am a big Al Gore supporter (none / 0)

and i think that if he were elected, he would have made an excellent president, but he did not connect with the American people. He tried and tried, but the poor guy was successful. I saw it around me with my friends who were democrats and were not "hot" about voting for him. As for Kerry, i was never a supporter of his. I voted for him just because he had a capital D next to his name.


by likelihood zero on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:20:35 AM EST


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