"Bitter" Fallout

A new Rasmussen Reports survey looked at fallout from Obama's "bitter" comments and found that while a majority of voters disagree with what Obama said, a plurality of liberal voters agree with him.

A plurality of politically liberal voters--46%--agree with Obama's statement while 33% disagree. Moderate voters take the opposite view and disagree by a 51% to 27% margin. Seventy-four percent (74%) of conservatives disagree with Obama's statement, only 12% agree.

Democrats are fairly evenly divided--34% agree with Obama and 43% disagree. Generally, Obama supporters agree with him while Hillary Clinton's supporters disagree.

Leading Rasmussen to conclude:

Partisan and ideological differences suggest that the comments are more likely to be a factor in the General Election than in the Primaries.

Which would explain why calling Barack Obama "elitist" and "out of touch" is only half of Clinton's strategy in the wake of Obama's comments. The other half, and potentially a more effective argument in the primary, is one of electability, to both voters and superdelegates alike.

First, Evan Bayh to reporters on Saturday:

"I think it's a real potential political problem and it's something for superdelegates and voters to think about," said Bayh, who was made available to reporters by the Clinton campaign to speak about the controversy.

"The far right wing has a very good track record of using things like this relentlessly against our candidates, whether its Al Gore or John Kerry," Bayh said, "I'm afraid this is the kind of fodder they might use to harm him."

And then Hillary Clinton herself during last night's Compassion Forum:

"The Democratic party has been viewed as a party that didn't understand and respect the values and way of life of so many of our fellow Americans," Clinton said, adding that the debate wasn't over whether or not Obama was a man of faith but rather whether his comments made him easily caricatured by Republicans ala Al Gore in 2000 and John Kerry in 2004.

"Large segments of the electorate concluded that [Gore and Kerry] did not really understand or relate to or respect their ways of life," Clinton said. "That is an issue for voters."

Obama had a short and sweet comeback to Clinton's remarks in the second half of the forum:

By the way, I have to say I think Al Gore won.

Although, I will say he probably doesn't want to start framing "winning" as a popular vote formulation. But be that as it may, there is some evidence that despite Obama's pushback on Clinton's attacks, that the firestorm over his remarks has hurt Obama in Pennsylvania. According to the latest ARG poll (600 LVs, April 11-13, MOE +/- 4%,) which was in the field the day the story broke and the two subsequent days, Hillary Clinton has seen a remarkable turnaround in the state.

CandidateApril 11-13April 5-6
Clinton5745
Obama3745

ARG has been rather unreliable this cycle and certainly the volatility of ARG's PA numbers does not exactly inspire confidence, so we'll have to see if Clinton sees an uptick in subsequent polls, but it's hard not to conclude that the 20 point shift to Hillary in less than a week is due at least in part to the "bitter" controversy.



Display:


Gee thats nice (none / 0)

that liberal voters won't fault Obama for his comments. Its like we are all so rational! Unfortunately, the general electorate isn't so much (yep, that's perpetuating a stereotype, but I am not running for POTUS- go figure).
by linc on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:15:11 PM EST

Re: Gee thats nice (2.00 / 0)

I wish I didn't have better things to do with my time so I could go back and make notes of all the times hardcore Clinton voices on this site disparaged the voters that Obama won in "red states". All the times Clinton said that Obama winning in rural areas didn't count.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:21:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gee thats nice (2.00 / 0)

You know who has lots of time? Republicans. Maybe if I'm lucky, if Hillary wins, they'll make that compilation for me. Who am I kidding? They've probably made it now! They just don't want her to lose just yet.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:22:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gee thats nice (2.00 / 0)

Quoting Evan Bayh does not strengthen your argument considering that he's endorsed Clinton and is believed to be on her short list for VP.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:23:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have never said that (none / 0)

but since you are not running for POTUS, I won't fault you for perpetuating stereotypes either ;)
by linc on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:27:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (2.00 / 0)

If I were a superdelegate, I'd be looking at Electoral College projections like the ones on the front page here, which show that Hillary Clinton needs to win Florida (which she wouldn't) to lose to McCain by 'only' fifty electoral votes.

(and... seriously.... whose decision was it to give McCain NY to make it look like Obama was (almost) as weak as Clinton?)


by BlueinColorado on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:15:48 PM EST

So silly (none / 0)

1. to rely on polls for just about any argument this year.

2. to completely ignore the rest of those maps that say, for instance that Clinton will lose AR, WA, OR in a general while arguing that Obama losing NY would just be impossible.
by linc on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:18:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So silly (none / 0)

Either of them losing NY is, while not impossible, highly improbable.

I would bet literally everything I own on the Democratic Nominee winning New York.

Any takers? Name the wager- and this time I want more than the "$20.00 to a charity of your choice." I want this one to be big enough to financially hurt the loser of the bet.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:30:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I will not take your bet (none / 0)

because I agree whole heartedly and I think this points to the silliness of those maps... If they are saying either candidate would lose NY, then I won't believe them at all- completely unreliable.
by linc on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:32:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So sillyNo non-incumbent republican (none / 0)

has won a statewide race in New York since 1994. That's just not going to happen.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:37:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The same Rasmussen survey you cite (none / 0)

also has a five-point swing towards Obama, who now leads Clinton 48 to 44. This thing is helping him in the primary, is one reasonable conclusion, and there's a long time to go before the general.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:18:22 PM EST

Note Rasmussen avoids the 'white' aspect (none / 0)

of Obama's comment. He's referring in context to white working class and/or small town people. But Rasmussen surveyed the following:

Fifty-six percent (56%) of voters nationwide disagree with Barack Obama's statement that people in small towns "cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that just 25% agree with the Democratic frontrunner while 19% are not sure.


We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.
by fairleft on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:18:24 PM EST

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

too bad it is ARG who came out with a poll.


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:19:57 PM EST

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

Too early to tell - more than a week out - especially with a weekend poll by ARG.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:20:07 PM EST

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

So you like repeating the Clinton slam on Al Gore, a candidate who won a higher percentage of the vote than Bill Clinton did?  Plus Gore, you know, actually WON in 2000.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:22:50 PM EST

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

It's fun to point that out, but since we're not celebrating the end of 8 years of President Gore and VP Lieberman, it is kind of not really bringing anything interesting to the table.

Sorry to be blunt, but Obama's answer didn't really answer anything, did it?


-----------

Blog: http://fitnessnerd.blogspot.com/

by FitnessNerd on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:34:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

So, Annie Oakley thinks Obama is out of touch?  If that's not the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.

Looks like Annie is determined to make it as difficult as possible for Obama to win in November.  I'm sure McCain appreciates the help.


by KTinOhio on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:24:30 PM EST

Sad but true! n/t (none / 0)


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:31:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please dont cite ARG (none / 0)

I think they just looked the direction SUSA went and along they went with SUSA.


by ann0nymous on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:27:36 PM EST

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (2.00 / 2)

This, by the way, was how the question was worded:

2* Obama said that in small towns in Pennsylvania, people "cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." Do you agree or disagree?

That is, of course, an accurate quote, but it's completely devoid of any mitigating context.  Considering that fully 41% of poll respondents have not been following this story "closely", it's likely or possible that a substantial number of respondents had never even heard these comments (let alone Obama's response) before pressing 1 for Agree or 2 for Disagree.  Measuring snap judgements like that has a legitimate purpose in political polling, but that purpose does not include an accurate reading on long-term impact.  

Just like how Pepsi always beats Coke in taste testing, but not at the grocery store.  These lines of attack are far more potent if you just take a sip.


by Ryan Anderson on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:30:39 PM EST

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (2.00 / 1)

Speaking of mitigating context, Question 4 is pretty interesting as well:

4* In response, Obama said, "No, I'm in touch. I know exactly what's going on. I know what's going on in Pennsylvania, I know what's going in Indiana, I know what's going in Illinois. People are fed up. They're angry and they're frustrated and they're bitter, and they want to see a change in Washington." Do you agree or disagree?

56% Agree
32% Disagree
12% Not sure


by Ryan Anderson on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:33:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (2.00 / 1)

i would say "change in washington" changes the whole context since a majority of americans want "change"


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:36:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (2.00 / 1)

That was the original context of Obama's remarks:  people are beyond believing in the potential of Washington to help their economic situations, so they look for comfort in the institutions and traditions they can depend on to help get them through.  


by Ryan Anderson on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:42:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

i was commenting on the fluctuation of the numbers


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:50:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (2.00 / 0)

Well, then, I agree with your analysis.  By substituting Clinton/McCain's context for his own, he makes a convincing case that he understands these voters and these times better than they do.  The attack loses it's potency almost immediately.  It'd be interesting to see the same poll conducted, except put question 2 after question 3 and see how many people still think Obama is an elitist after hearing him on get back on message.


by Ryan Anderson on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:55:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (2.00 / 0)

the problem is that most voters only go so far as to take a snap judgment and look no further. Its a problem with our electorate.


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:35:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (2.00 / 1)

That's true, and a reason why these attacks can be potent when they hit at the right time.  Unfortunately for McCain, the right time is not 6 months before the general election and 6 weeks after a lot of people became completely burned out on the Democratic race.   The thought that this single, sloppy quote is going to stick with voters all the way through November is just wishful thinking.  Their hopes that they can easily use this to permanently attach the elitist label to Obama is belied by the fact that, just seconds later, these same poll respondents overwhelmingly agreed to an Obama argument that he is "in touch" with rural and working class America.  


by Ryan Anderson on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:41:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (2.00 / 1)

seriously i've had enough of this story, 'bittergate,' and all the crap its coated with.


--++++Stay Gold, Ponyboy!++++--
by amde on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:37:23 PM EST

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

Note on ARG -
55% of the sample were women, i think thats low.

I would place the number of women who come out to be closer to 58.


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:39:28 PM EST

It is not about Bitter damn it (2.00 / 1)

Bitter is the Obama team talking point that they want us and the press to grab hold of.  But this is not about being bitter.  Lots of people are bitter including Michelle Obama.

This is about Clinging to religion because of bitterness rather than their faith and tradition that Obama supposedly adheres to.

Anybody like myself who wants to take issue with Obama on this gaff had better not fall into the trap of using his talking points.

Here is an excellent read by Mickey Kaus over at Slate. http://www.slate.com/id/2188487/

The four sins of "cling."


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:39:30 PM EST

Re: It is not about Bitter damn it (none / 0)

Great catch NewHampster. I noticed the same thing, and I'm an Obama supporter.

The damaging part of the quote is "cling to" but its been framed as the bitter/elitist-debate.

But if he can deflect this problem this well, it only strengthens my blief that he can handle it in the fall. You gotta respect how he's politically playing this one.


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:46:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But doesn't the underlying attitude (none / 0)

bother you at all?  Is it only about winning after all?


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:54:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But doesn't the underlying attitude (none / 0)

The underlying attitude is actually one of empathy. Why would I have a problem with that. The underlying attitude is about acknowleging that the Obama campaign (and the Dem Party in general) has had a hard time cutting through the smokescreen of social issues that the Republicans have been throwing up for the past 30 years so that progressive policies could help these people better themselves.


by wasder on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:05:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

His so-called empathy is (none / 0)

like how a cattle rancher feels when his herd is stuck in a late winter blizzard.

And as I said, it is not about the bitterness.  It is all about Obama's judgment.  How many past lives and gaffes does this guy have?

a Politico writer says it so well. http://www.politico.com/playbook/


A mischievous friend in Hillaryland offers "Obama's Cling Evolution":

1. Full-throated defense. Says the idea that anyone would criticize him is 'rich.'

2. Less full-throated defense. Says he probably could have phrased it better.

3. Pseudo-apology. Says he 'deeply regrets' IF anyone was offended.

4. Pseudo-apology, take two. Says he was the 'first to admit that some of the words I chose I chose badly.

5. Radical Re-interpretation. Says it 'may have been clumsy' but he meant it as a compliment." ("What I was saying is that when economic hardship hits in these communities, what people have is- they've got family, they've got their faith., they've got the traditions that have been passed on to them from generation to generation. Those aren't bad things.")


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:22:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: His so-called empathy is (none / 0)

You know, if you want to start changing minds, don't use an attack on Obama that can be can be easily pinned on either of the other presidential candidates.

People who don't support Obama really seemed to have abandoned talking about what's right about their candidate and focused on what's wrong with Obama.


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:33:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: His so-called empathy is (none / 0)

true.

And I would also add that Clinton supporters should be figuring out her "apology" on voting for the war in Iraq.

It's a much more complicated scenerio to track out then Obama and his most recent statements.


!
by alex100 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:58:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But doesn't the underlying attitude (2.00 / 0)

No because I don't think there was malice in the underlying attitude.

I think he was making a good point, but unfortunately it was spoken in a poor manner. This whole thing reminds me too much of Kerry where people are choosing to not hear what he was trying to say just to attack the man.

This is a classic republican move and if he can deflect it now, I think he can handle it in the general.


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:10:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you saying... (none / 0)

Are you saying that McCain's "underlying attitude" is better than Obama's even if you believe the very worst about the implications of Obama's fairly inoccuous quote?

A born-privledged, married-into-extreme wealth man who never had to live paycheck-to-paycheck or hold down a normal job is somehow going to get through to these voters better than a guy who worked for all of his advantages?


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:12:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes (none / 0)

Because the money has nothing to do with it.  It is all in how one is brought up.  I can somehow not imagine a Kennedy thinking, let alone saying what Obama said.


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:18:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And yet... (none / 0)

Bill Clinton said almost the same thing in the '90s about "insecure white people."

Could it be that we're just jumping on people for simple generalizations when answering questions about broad issues?

I know you don't want Obama, but the sooner you start getting out of the habit of looking at everything he says in the worst possible light, the better it will be for your state of mind, I think.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:24:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah, Great Spin. Make this about Bill (none / 0)

and ignore Obama's lack of judgment and out right disrespect for people in small town America.


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:25:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You don't get it. (2.00 / 1)

It's not about Bill OR about Barack.  It's about us, the public and the media taking people out of context.

We're jumping on people for doing things that would've been overlooked before, because everyone's looking for the "gotcha" moment that will get the best ratings or provide a win for our favorite candidate.

I don't think that the sniper story should've had as much in the way of legs as it's had, for example.  I got a laugh out of it, but that should have been the end.

The end result of this attitude is people over-editing themselves.  Nobody addresses any difficult issue because they're afraid that they'll be attacked on it later.

Its not a healthy attitude, and it's the kind of thing that has served us poorly in previous elections.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:38:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ah, Great Spin. Make this about Bill (none / 0)

What spin? It's simple truth: Bill Clinton expressed the exact same sentiments.

You claim that Obama is reprehensible for saying these things, and yet you support the Clintons who said the exact same things in '92.

How do you spin your claims, exactly?


www.thealexandrian.net
by Justin Alexander on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 06:55:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactamundo (none / 0)

Obama insanely put religion on the same level as "antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment."

So Obama said that people in small town America "cling" to religion for the same reason the "cling" to "antipathy to people who aren't like them."

Never mind the fact that he just called small town America racist.

Obama's statement is so insulting on so many levels it is difficult to  unpack.

BTW, only people who themselves are "bitter" towards small town America won't see the harm in Obama's comments. The rest of us who know how off the mark he is see the insult for what it is.


by dMarx on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:53:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Even I said that I agreed when I first heard it (none / 0)

and I do as a non-religious person tend to agree with the bitter part of it but I also see that this goes way beyond my religious snobbery to simple American respect for the views of others.

He in essence has said he has no respect for small town Americans, whatever their beliefs.


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:58:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

this is pure nonsense (none / 0)

a week ago we were told we should fear Obama because he clearly must be influenced after spending 20 years at a "HATEFUL!!!" church.  Now we're supposed to believe that he has absolutely no respect for religion or for tradition?  In these desperate times for Hillary, I understand why you want to throw every argument you possibly can at Obama, but could you at least try not to contradict yourselves?


4 years of McCain = 4 more years of Bush.
by ashriver on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:11:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There is no contradiction (none / 0)

Just because someone belongs to a church for 20, 30 or 50 years does not mean they believe or have faith.  It could be as simple as wanting a political career so one must belong to a church.

He has shown to have the worst of what he is running on.  Judgment.


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:24:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yeah, except that you and others... (none / 0)

claimed that because he attended that church for 20 years he MUST agree with all of Rev. Wright's quotes.  Now you are saying, "just because he attended that church, we can't infer anything about his beliefs."


4 years of McCain = 4 more years of Bush.
by ashriver on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:28:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nobody ever accused him (none / 0)

of agreeing with Wright.  That is trying to put words in our mouths.

We got on and continue to wonder why he never left and never let in bother him until it came out in the press and youtube.  


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:33:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ahhhh (2.00 / 1)

So how, exactly, did you measure whether he was "bothered" or not?  All you have to go on is that he continued to attend the church.

So then you are saying, "attending church is conclusive evidence that one is not bothered by what the pastor says," while simultaneously saying, "attending church provides no evidence whatsoever about whether one is religious."  Even if this isn't contradictory, it is at the very least using two completely different standards to evaluate the available evidence.


4 years of McCain = 4 more years of Bush.
by ashriver on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:43:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The real issue (none / 0)

The Obama/MSM complex has been trying to shift the debate to whether or not there are bitter people in America.  If the question is now being polled, then apparantly they are having some success.  The real issue is that Obama made a perjorative statement about impoverished white voters in the context of a private fund raising event attended by rich SF liberals.  It about his attitute not voter bitterness.


by dwmorris on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:41:16 PM EST

Re: The real issue (none / 0)

pointing out a correlation is not the same thing as making a pejorative statement.  He didn't say that people were "bad" or "inferior"; he was only pointing out a trend that many other people have noticed.


4 years of McCain = 4 more years of Bush.
by ashriver on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:33:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The real issue (none / 0)

That spin doesn't work, particularly when the "correlation" is a false generalization.  What's particularly creepy is that he said it in the context of a strategic discussion with rich white donors about how to get frustrated poor whites to vote for the black guy.


by dwmorris on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 06:59:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

Big problem for Obama in the General Election. But if the polls are right, a big problem in the primaries, too. The Democrats are going to have to pound on McCain that he is out of touch with the people's problems over the economy.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:50:11 PM EST

Hillary Loves GOP Talking Points (none / 0)

It's effective pandering to give the MSM what they want, like her anti-D talking points. Is this a good primary strategy?


by bernardpliers on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:52:43 PM EST

Actually, (none / 0)

Clinton biting on all of these attack points is great for Obama, because it lets him vaccinate himself against them for the general election.

If I didn't know better, I'd think that they'd planned it this way.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:17:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

Could there be a better argument that this primary is way too long than the fact that this is what we're talking about?  I mean HRC supporters, I respect your commitment to your candidate, but does this have anything at all to do with who would be a better president?

Is anyone here actually going to deny that when people hit hard times, they often cling to religion and blame people different from themselves?  We are talking about a statement that is virtually a truism.  I know, I know, politicians just can't say such things.  Give me a freaking break, can our discourse get any more pointless and irrelevant?


by snaktime on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:53:29 PM EST

100 times worse than Kerry comment (none / 0)

This Gaffe is a 100 time worse than Kerry's immortal "I voted for it before I voted against it." For one thing, Kerry had a totally reasonable point.  Obama on the other hand doesn't.


by dMarx on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 100 times worse than Kerry comment (none / 0)

Do people sometimes cling to religion or scapegoat others when they are economically frustrated?  Gosh, I guess I'm an elitist too because that sounds like a virtual truism to me.


by snaktime on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:13:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly (none / 0)

but don't you realize that you and the people on this blog are not most of the American public?


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:38:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good question. (none / 0)

Do you realize that, yourself?

People are saying that they speak for the "American public," and most indications I've heard suggest that they either agree with Obama or disagree with the terminology but not the sentiment.

Even if they disagree, a lot of Obama's support comes from folks who don't even have his politics, but respond to the way he conducts himself.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:41:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And I see him as conducting himself (none / 0)

as a snobby professor looking down on the freshmen he has to put up with once a week during intro101.

I see him as having run an incredibly negative campaign against Clinton.  In fact he has been 100% negative from the beginning, running against old style politics(Hillary) and telling us that only his change is believable.


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:49:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly (none / 0)

I take your point to be that "we on this blog all recognize that Obama merely stated a simple fact about the way the world works - that people down on their luck often cling to religion or scapegoat others.  but his saying so was a big gaffe because ordinary people take offense at such things even if they are true."

Who is being elitist again?


by snaktime on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:34:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

Some of these people have been down so long they don't know which way is up.  If they're not bitter, it's because they have lost all hope.


by KTinOhio on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:57:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes. It has everything to do with (none / 0)

who would make a better President.  This is about understanding and respecting the people who elect you and not thinking they are some mass of proletarians that can be manipulated.


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:07:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes. It has everything to do with (none / 0)

I want to be clear on something.  Do you believe that people frustrated with their economic lot in life sometimes cling to religion or scapegoat others?


by snaktime on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:12:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I really don't know (none / 0)

I assume that some do exactly that but I also believe that the majority come to religion and scapegoating out of upbringing and faith.  I believe that religion is something people use both when they are down and when they are joyous.

I am not religious so I do not profess to know why people have their faith, I do know that it is not my place or Obama's to put all enveloping stereotypes onto religious people in small town America.

That is just as bad as a winger using Wright to generalize all African American Churches.


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:01:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I really don't know (none / 0)

So some people do cling to religion or scapegoat others under such circumstances, as you are aware.  What then is your beef with what Obama said?

I just hate these arguments where we pretend offense at comments that aren't even controversial.  Unless of course you play dumb and pretend that Obama meant that "every single working class person who is down on his luck just clings to religion or scapegoats people."  He neither said that nor meant that nor believes that as is completely obvious (unless you're trying to make a too-doo about nothing).


by snaktime on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:30:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I also don't know what he belives (none / 0)

or meant.  How do you?

I know that after a year of following this thing (in NH) and hearing all the candidates, I do not trust him or believe him.

Have a good day


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:34:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I also don't know what he belives (none / 0)

If you don't believe Obama, fair enough.  But forgive me for laughing out loud when Hillary Clinton calls someone elitist.  I mean does it even need to be explained why such an accusation is a joke?

They are all freaking elitists.  News flash:  these people are running for the elitist-ist of elite positions in the world.  I'm sorry but this "let's elect a good ol' boy who we'd like to have over for dinner" garbage is what gets us someone like our current president.  I'm sick of the candidates competing for who is the most "down to earth" and "average Joe."

Is this kind of crap going to be part of any campaign, sure.  But do I need to respect the Clinton campaign for this incredibly insincere line of attack, no I do not.


by snaktime on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:51:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Then it must be working n/t (none / 0)


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:01:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The "I am rubber you are glue" strategy (2.00 / 1)

Obama is attempting again might be backfiring on him this time...

He looks like a petulant child trying to blame everyone for his political blunders but himself...

A pattern that has been fairly consistent since the "D-Punjab" incident earlier this year...


by SaveElmer on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:54:36 PM EST

Ah, ARG (none / 0)

ARG is the one where they put out a plastic mat with the candidates' names on it, then bring out poo-flinging monkeys to determine who they like better by covering the name with the most poo.

I don't expect any accurate polling on Obama's comments until tomorrow or Wednesday.

I suspect that there won't be significant impact.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:59:05 PM EST

Re: Ah, ARG (none / 0)

I think you give ARG too much credit... Poo fligning moneys takes time to assemble...

And you mispronounced it... the name of the firm is AAAAAAARGGH!!! For the frustration they cause....

If AAAAAARRGHH has Hillary up by 20, most assuredly she is losing the state....

You'll never lose money betting against AAAAAAARRRRGH!


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:10:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So what you're saying is... (none / 0)

The opposite of ARG is the most accurate polling you could possibly get?

I'll inform David Axelrod.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:20:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So what you're saying is... (none / 0)

Last week AAARGH had PA tied...

I don't think anyone seriously believed that, either....  


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:44:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

If she wins Pennsylvania by 20 points then i think Obama is in serious trouble in Indiana and maybe even North Carolina.


by karajan72 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:17:06 PM EST

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

No way, maybe if she wins by 30, but 20 is just 1 good night.

All Obama has to do is use Clinton's own words against her.

"We were never expected to win this state anyways."


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:24:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

You can't lose white working class voters by a blow out in Pennsylvania and expect to win in November.


by karajan72 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:28:09 PM EST

What? (none / 0)

How do you figure that losing white working class voters in a Democratic primary equates to the general election?  It's a completely different ballgame.

I don't think any Democrat has won the majority of the white vote overall in many, many cycles.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:44:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

It's a flawed arguement.

Yes, Clinton has carried white working class voters at a larger number than Obama. But I don't remember some large contingent of white working class voters supporting McCain.

Whether they're choosing Clinton or Obama, they're voting Democratic and are more than likely to come back to the party in November.


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:44:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

Oh enough of the transparent "faux" outrage being spewed from some of you. For Chrissakes, an elementary sociology class would teach you  that people during times of hardship or crisis are more apt to "cling" to those avenues of comfort, albeit, guns, God or to take it one step further even family. After 911, the rate of divorce plummeted and there was a provocative increase in the number of people attending church. So wouldn't one conclude that those counties decimated by loss of jobs, income, insurance, etc. would hold on TIGHTER to certain comforts and be a bit bitter? DUH
Some of the comments in Hillary la-la land reeks of small-mindedness and thickheadedness.
"Beauty, more than bitterness, makes the heart break." Sara Teasdale
by april34fff on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 01:49:04 PM EST

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

Hillary was just on MSNBC speaking at a labor conference. When she brought up "bitter" the crowd moaned at her.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:05:09 PM EST

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

Gallup tracking poll today:

Obama 50
Clinton 40

Doesn't look like this is hurting Obama NATIONWIDE.

Polling was done from April 11-13th.


by BDM on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:28:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Bitter" Fallout (none / 0)

It's come to be a knee reaction to think that people will react with a negative knee jerk to comments the media deems controversial and the other (GOP) candidates pounce on like ravenous wolves.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:59:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]


You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.