Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math

       Main Stream Media has been grossly exaggerating Hillary Clinton's position in the race for the democratic nomination. They have oft been quoted as saying that the magic number is 2024 and that neither Hillary Clinton nor Barack Obama can reach this number without the aid of superdelegates (or automatic delegates, depending on which way you're spinning). This argument is flawed in two respects. The first: the current total delegate counts have Obama at 1571 delegates and Clinton at 1470 (according to DemConWatch, but varies slightly depending on who you choose to get your numbers from) with 599 delegates remaining. Speaking purely mathematically, it is possible for both Obama and Hillary to reach the "Magic Number" via the pledged delegates. It is not likely, as he would have to win about 76% of the remaining delegates in every state left (a large margin even by his blowout standards), and Hillary would need to win a whopping 92.5% (if Mississippi splits evenly her required margins increase to 95%). The second flaw in this argument is the fact that it is hypocritical in its composure. Both Obama and Hillary's current totals, and more importantly the ultimate goal post, already factor superdelegates into the equation: 203 and 244, respectively, and 795 for the total. The MSM is trying to frame the discussion about who can run up the majority of pledged delegates while using the superdelegate mile markers. To put this into perspective: in order to get to 2024 if superdelegates had no say whatsoever (which they technically do not) up until Denver, the victor would have to win a pinch more than 62% of the vote, which is obviously a good deal more than a simple majority. This becomes problematic when trying to describe who has won in terms of popular opinion, because the number make it seem like NEITHER candidate has. A few minutes thought can poke the holes in this presentation, seeing as there are only two candidates in this contest, and one has a significant lead, so one must be holding a majority opinion by pure logic.

      Most reasonable people who have been following the exchange with tend to agree that the superdelegates are fickle creatures, they can and have changed their minds in the process and likely will do so in the future. Endorsements, therefore, are at best unreliable indicators of he final vote and really should be discounted. However, to properly frame the case for popular opinion, we have to wipe them from the equation. This leads to my major point in this article: the popular vote Magic Pledged Number (MPN) is not 2024, it is 1627. Also, in this frame of reference, Obama has 1387 delegates to Clinton's 1229.5 (via wikipedia's count). What's the big deal, you ask, making a distinction between 2024 and 1627 if both their numbers lower respectively? Well, the pledged delegate majority is the best poll we can get of the popular national opinion for the candidate (given that it is, you know, the actual election part of the primary process). Also, it encompasses the argument Obama is putting forward to attempt to sway those fickle elected officials who comprise the superdelegates. More importantly, the 2024 goal combined with excluding additional superdelegates makes the race seem closer than it is and more likely to be a deadlock. Worded differently: it makes Obama's 4.6% lead seem like a pithy 3.7% lead (note: both are fairly substantial leads at this point in the race, but we're getting to that).

      So that's it? A less than 1% difference? That's what I've been ranting to you about? They both still need 76% or 92.5% of remaining pledged delegates, right? The answer, of course, is no. This, in fact, is where the truly interesting part of this analysis peaks into the light: setting the expectations. Hillary needs 404.5 delegates to reach the pledged delegate majority, while Obama only needs 240. Therefore, Obama only needs to win 40% of the remaining delegates, while Clinton needs to win a whopping 67.5% to claim a majority of the popular vote. We'll call these numbers the expectation floor (EF) for the candidates, meaning not a polling expectation, but the mathematical expectations they must overcome. You may notice those numbers do not add up to one hundred, this is because they are confounded by 36.5 phantom delegates that are either committed to John Edwards or not yet assigned, so we are ignoring them for the time being. The fact remains, as things stand Obama's expectations for remaining contests are 40% to Hillary's 67.5%. Now, due to delegate math, 67.5% of remaining delegates is somewhat difficult to translate into exact votes, but let us assume a 1:1 delegate proportion to voter percentage If you run the numbers over the previous primary/caucuses, the appointments really are not far off from this assumption, in spite of all the spinster's complaints about complications. For example: say Hillary pulls out a 60-40 win (Scenario 1). Multiply the 158 pledged delegates by 60% and you get 94.8 to Clinton, leaving 63.2 to Obama. The Slate's super scientific Delegate Calculator crunches all its numbers and dishes out 95 to Clinton and 63 to Obama. Shockingly similar, eh? Makes it real easy to do in Excel too, as it turns out. Anyhow, assuming Scenario 1, Obama would have made no dent in public opinion in Pennsylvania and Hillary would have exceeded poll predictions. Assume as well an equally unlikely, but possible, 50-50 split in Mississippi. Hillary would have beat polls in both states, and should be that much closer to having this nom, according to Harold Ickes, "locked up", correct? Oh how wrong you would be. By winning beneath her EF, she actually makes it more unlikely that she will win moving forward. Specifically, at that point she would have to win 72% of all remaining delegates. Suppose she digs into Obama's demographic support again, which she has not yet currently done at all, and manages to tie up North Carolina and Indiana. Heck, say she pulls 55% out of each, against the odds (call this Scenario 1.1). She would then only have to catch 86% of the remaining delegates to get the pledged majority. After winning! You can see where this is going. This would mean Obama was pulling less than 14% of the vote (effectively netting him no delegates). Huckabee has been outperforming those odds while being all but penniless and doomed. Each time she fails to get to the expectation margin, the bar gets higher and higher until it vanishes into nothingness.

     Aha, but Florida and Michigan will have a play, will they not? We cannot, in good conscious, disenfranchise those voters. They're already talking about revotes. A paltry $20 million a pop for Hillary favored primaries and it's a done deal. They can save Hillary, no doubt. All is not lost, oh mathmonger me. But do they? Let's crunch the numbers again. Adding in Florida and Michigan, the new pledged magic number is 1784. Assuming a theoretical even Mississippi split, Hillary would only have to win 63.8% of remaining delegates. Meanwhile, Barack would just have to hold onto 45% to get to the lead.  Scenario 1.1 would leave her needing 65.1%. The progression is markedly slower, leading to a long, drawn out process, but the result is the same. Is there any way for Hillary to have an advantage? What if, by some crazed political miracle the delegates in Florida and Michigan get seated as they are, in spite of the massive unfairness and rule breaking? Suppose Obama gets no delegates from Michigan, since his name was on the ballot, netting Clinton 70 free delegates based on her margin as the Uncommitteds wander off into the wilderness in search of purpose. Surely, then, the math would be in her favor, after changing the rules mid-game. Wouldn't they? Well, Obama's EF would jump to 56%. Clinton, then is sitting pretty at 66.5%. All that conniving and game changing to net a 1% point decrease in her EF. Why is Obama's so much higher while Clinton's stays almost the same? Remember those phantom delegates, now totaling 94.5 (almost a whole big state!)? They now constitute a significant enough portion or pledged delegates to stop a candidate from achieving the MPN. In any event, the only real benefit from this scenario is it brings Obama down perception wise and makes it possible that he will not meet the MPN, but simply have the most delegates. And, of course, it shrinks Obama's current 150 delegate lead to around 62. Interestingly enough, Clinton's EF is smaller doing the revote in Florida and Michigan, since she did not come anywhere near meeting it the first time around in the arguably unfair contests, though it is highly unlikely she would do better the second time around. And one can assume Obama would net more than zero delegates in a second Michigan vote, keeping his EF in the mid-40's.

      Fine, you say, Obama will have more delegates. But, he'll have been beaten up badly and likely will be losing a morale war, even if he'll be awash with money from swooning, delusional supporters. Never good as far as superdelegates decision making is concerned. And, of course, there is the latest Clinton trump card talking point: the popular vote.  Even if she does not meet the strange, coldly logical EM number she faces, she can pull out a win in the popular vote. After all, over 27 million people voted and there is only a 600,000 vote advantage to Obama (Obama: 13,005,114, Clinton: 12,414,786 according to RealClearPolitics). Why, if you add Florida and Michigan (where Obama was not on the ballot, getting zero votes, which will never, in the Clinton camp's wildest dreams, be considered a valid line of argument, especially if she is still behind in delegates), she actually manages to squeak ahead in votes, by a whole 30,000! In any event, and ignoring the glaringly obvious problem that Nevada, Iowa, Maine, and Washington, the first of which was a close contest and the last three are fairly populous, all having voted for Obama by big margins, have not released popular vote totals. This means they are not included in any popular vote total you may see (go ahead and check if you don't believe me). It is entirely possible Obama's lead is in the range of a cool million votes, but I digress. Let us not jump to conclusions and assume a 600,000 vote difference, based on the numbers we have. Now then, how to estimate the total number of voters in upcoming states to establish a reasonable EF for Hillary to make up in this regard? None of the upcoming states have voted in recent primaries, and this year has been all about records. So, in the spirit of fairness, I went ahead and took the 2007 US Census estimates for state population totals, assumed 80% of people would be eligible to vote, and that 25% would vote in these upcoming primaries. Keep in mind, 27% was the highest primary turnout among all eligible voters (not just Dems or Rs) and that was in 2004. But these are record breaking years, Dems have outnumbered Rs in almost every race, etc. If you doubt my estimates consider it this way: if this methodology were applied to the states that have already voted so far, the popular vote totals would be 55 million people thus far, more than twice the actual number, so I think everything is covered by a safe margin of error (one that will prove in favor of Hillary Clinton) in this hypothetical. Using this extremely bold estimate, actual voter turnout in the remaining states (and Puerto Rico) would be 8,667,123 people. To make up the 600,000 vote deficit, Hillary would have to win a 7% point margin above Obama in every remaining contest, or an EF of 53.5%. In all likelihood, this will not happen. If you remove from the equation the Obama favored states of North Carolina, Oregon, South Dakota, and Montana, meaning they pull a 50-50 popular vote split, that margin increases to 10.5%. This is, of course, much more achievable than beating her EF for pledged delegates, but these estimates are best case scenario, with likely record breaking turnout increases of 400% or so. And it is still highly unlikely that this outcome will happen in even the rosiest of scenarios.  Not to mention, if Clinton just barely squeaks out a popular vote total, while losing overall delegates, she still does not have a very good case to make.

      So what do all these numbers mean? Essentially, they point out that the best hope for Hillary Clinton to win the election is for Barack Obama to be struck by a meteorite, so long as it kills him and does not grant him any (more?) superhuman powers. Beating her EF of 67.5% in all states is an outlandish proposal. The only election she's done that so far was in Arkansas, her sort of home state. She was just shy of that margin during her incumbent run for Senate in NY (for those not well versed in Senate elections, incumbents nearly always win and its rarely a contest). More than likely, even if everything went Clinton's way, she would be down in both pledged delegates and popular vote. As far as I am concerned, by the way, given than 3 of the 4 states not reporting vote totals fell huge for Obama, pledged delegates are the most accurate representation of the will of the American people we have available. The purpose of this post was to portray this fact as accurately as possible, and define the terms anyone truly interested in the popular opinion should look to.

      If these figures seem unfair to Hillary Clinton, when, "the people have not all yet spoken," I encourage you to remember that there are only 11 contests left, with 43 having already been decided. The people HAVE spoken. They have with enough of a margin where if this were an election night, it would already have been called by every network weeks ago. This is not, however, a call for Hillary Clinton to step down. How she proceeds at this point in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds is her right. I may feel it is damaging to the party, or a waste of money, or any number of things, but it is not incumbent upon her to step down. She has come very far and deserves to be heard, when she says rational things at least. Nor do I feel this is a good excuse for Obama or his supporters to take it easy or rest on their laurels. If anything, that was the cause for his receding support in the days leading up to last Tuesday. The 50 state strategy is proving to have some good coattails, just look at Bill Foster in Illinois or the SurveyUSA numbers, and we cannot afford to have a weakened or lazy candidate walking out of this primary whenever it is finally called. I do feel like this should be a message to the superdelegates to put pressure on Clinton to stop the negative attacks and outright character assassination she employs against Barack Obama, in her ridiculous effort to bring about what, at very best, amounts to a shady backroom deal behind closed doors, defying the will of the people. To stop the open endorsements of John McCain over Barack Obama. To stop the accusations of falsehood regarding his positions on NAFTA and the Iraq war that he has stayed consistent on for years and has no reason to lie about. To stop the claims of impropriety in regards to Tony Resko when she herself has a laundry list of shady donors that includes the very same individual and several of his Co-defendents. To stop the bitter infighting on the trail while giving John McCain leave to sneak into the White House and swap the locks on the doors.



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Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (2.00 / 0)

Thanks for your effort!

This should be required reading for all myDD readers!


by marcotom on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:19:04 AM EST

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (2.00 / 0)

Well, a bit wordy, but well-reasoned and thought out. Thanks. A few add-ons, if I may:

1. The easy one. Bill Foster tacks one more superdelegate on to Obama's total.

2. For some reason, Demconwatch hasn't updated their numbers to reflect the final California total announced earlier this week, adding 4 delegates for Obama, subtracting 4 from Clinton, hence, increasing Obama's lead by 8.

3. I think it's safe to make the assumption that SOMETHING will be done to include delegates from Michigan and Florida. I also think it's reasonable to begin NOW to include in all counts superdelegates from those states who have endorsed. To do otherwise, for those supporting Obama, would be engaging in the kind of fantasy usually reserved, at this point, for Hillary's supporters. Let us then add 14 to her super count and 8 to his.


by vermontprog on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:24:19 AM EST

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (2.00 / 1)

You lost me in the last paragraph of your screed. Clinton has not "endorsed" McCain over Obama, she has pointed out the immense need we have a s a party to have a nominee who is inoculated against the charge of being unqualified to be commander in chief, not just because McCain is thought to be qualified by the public, but because elections remain at the mercy of the news cycle, and if we have even one terrorist event that takes place here in the US before the election the bar will instantly go way up on minimum  credentials on national security. One terrorist event would radically change the national conversation.  Voters will be looking for the sense of safety that experience and qualifications contributes on national security.

Clinton did not accuse Obama of inconsistency on his positions on Nafta and Iraq, his own advisors inadvertently did that, and the media trumpeted those hypocrisies because the voters deserve to understand what his true positions are. His misrepresentations of his true intentions go straight to the heart of his credibility, and his word is all he has in the absence of a tangible record to evaluate.

Your attacks on Clinton with right wing talking points regarding donors, after millions of dollars were poured into incriminating her by her right wing persecutors yielded no results, is spurious at best. The Rezko trial will remain an ongoing threat to Obama's candidacy regardless of what Hillary Clinton says about it, and the Republicans will be certain to use it against him, so he had better have a set of defensive maneuvers at the ready. We do not know what will be uncovered, and the fact that it is an open question is a factor to his detriment.

These challenges to Obama are based in reality and are completely justified, and these weaknesses will be taken into consideration by superdelegates in how they chose to bestow their votes, as it should be. Additional factors about his weakness in closing the deal with lower income people and his inability to win the large states that Democrats rely upon to win the GE need to be weighed as well.

For me, this is nomination process is ultimately about the safety and well being of our residents and our country, and that alone for me is the most important reason for the challenges to Obama's lack of experience and qualifications. All voters have a right to have these questions answered to our satisfaction before allowing this candidate to run off with our nomination.

Those are the important issues, not the math, which remains in play.


by 07rescue on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:41:51 AM EST

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (2.00 / 1)

So Hillary Clinton or John McCain's chances rely on a well placed, public terrorist attack? Frankly, I think people are fed up with the fear politics. If they are not, Hillary Clinton will not be able to stand up against John McCain when the red base is already revved up against her to begin with. I'm not saying Obama does not need to portray strength. On the contrary, I think he does need to step up his game, but step away from just taking blows from Clinton. By responding in the meek way he has the last few weeks he lets her own the news cycle, and makes himself look weaker. I think he should take comfort in the numbers, step back into the spotlight and start making strong, hard statements about the politics of personal destruction and the state of our nation. In short, stop playing this game on Hillary's terms just because its more favorable to her, and start talking about the issues that matter to all Americans. For her part, I think she could show an ounce of dignity, as the only way to pull out 66% wins from here on out is to bash Obama much much worse than she even has been. Even then, it's still likely he could win the popular numbers, at least.


by TheSilverMonkey on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:09:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (none / 0)

"So Hillary Clinton or John McCain's chances rely on a well placed, public terrorist attack? "

Not at all, there doesn't even need to be a real attack for those voter fears to be activated. But in either case all it takes is an attack, or the threat of an attack that raises the threat level, to remarkably reposition national security as the voter's highest priority.

Tell me, with McCain's fortunes riding on the national security issue, how likely do you believe it will be that the Bush administration will store up all the various and constant terrorist threat data, to be released at an appropriate time in November? As a first responder I can assure you that there are constant threat warnings issued that the public never hears about, so there is more than ample fodder.

Remember that there will be many Republican administration and Congressional leaders who will be threatened with criminal corruption indictments if the Republicans are deposed from the White House. They are in a fight for their lives, do you think they will go down quietly?

The voters will never be done with the "politics of fear" as you put it. That is why we must have every Democratic candidate inoculated against charges of being ill prepared on national security, otherwise we are fatally vulnerable to the newscycle.

All the rest of the issues will fade instantly if voters are even momentarily convinced that their lives are at risk.


by 07rescue on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 11:48:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (2.00 / 1)

Also, I would argue the positions of his unpaid, non-staff advisors do not reflect his political intentions. He's had the same positions for years, and he has publicly said he reserves the right to make sure Iraq does not fall into utter turmoil as it is. Funny you mention Republican talking points, as it was the Canadian GOP who pushed the bogus NAFTA story. Also, Hillary chose to bring the Ken Starr investigations back into the spotlight this very week. Also, the donors I speak of are NOT the ones investigated in the 1990's:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/ story?id=3866786
Norman Hsu is not some ghost from yesteryear either.
Get over it, there's a lot more skeletons in Clinton's closet that have not yet been vetted by the media, and media maverick darling John McCain will be more than happy to put them out there. Republicans and Independents will not immediately jump to Clinton's aid like the Dems tend to.
by TheSilverMonkey on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:16:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (2.00 / 2)

Nope.  Because once again it starts with a false premise - pledged delegates are really the only thing that matters - and ignores the rules.  The bottom line is that if Clinton wins Pennsylvania and revotes in Michigan and Florida, along with 2 more of the remaining states, the superdelegates will ask themselves which is more electable, the candidate who won small states in February, and who does better in caucuses (there aren't any caucuses in November), or the candidate who won every state with 20 or more delegates but Illinois, and who was winning more later.  In other words, did Obama peak in February, going from low name recognition to exciting phenomenon, but then fading as people actually learned more about him, or was Super Tuesday II a mere bump in his road.  THAT, ultimately, will be the question for the supers to decide.


by dhonig on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:48:15 AM EST

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (none / 0)

Or they might ask themselves who is doing better in the Democratic "gimmes," such as NY, MA, and CA and who is doing better in the swing states such as OH, WI, IA, VA, MN, OR, WA, MO.


by vermontprog on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:11:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (2.00 / 1)

They may also ask who is going to fail from "just words" (like Gov. Patrick) and lead to a Republican majority sooner when that same thing happens nationally.


by Sandeep on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 09:22:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (2.00 / 1)

The question then is: can Obama turn congress Republican as quickly as did Bill Clinton? Given that it took Bill only two years, he can't conceivably do it more quickly.

Next question: can Obama possibly bungle anything, anything as badly as Hillary Clinton bungled the one thing that she had responsibility for during her husband's administration: health care reform?

Yes, Hillary has more experience than does Barack. More experience bungling health care, more experience giving George Bush carte blanche on Iraq.


by vermontprog on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 10:35:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (none / 0)

Ok I agree with your counter-points. See we can agree with each other in a discussion:-)

Since you raised valid questions, the answer lies in the thinking of superdelegates. They will be answering these same questions and if they feel Obama will be another Bill Clinton or Duval Patrick and we will lose badly in 2010, then they will vote for Hillary.


by Sandeep on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 03:26:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (2.00 / 1)

First of all, you can't say nope to mathematics. They are what they are. Secondly, there is no false premise or rule ignoring. The popular vote is a good basis for how the superdelegates will decide. What measure would you prefer to use? Intangibles like, "Who's the best fighter/smearer?" or "Who's better at answering the phone in a crisis?" How about, "Who's more electable against John McCain?" which also falls in Obama's favor. My point simply is this: Hillary needs to prove her case to more than just the superdelegates. She has to prove it to the people. Negative ads combined with squeaking by with shady political dealmaking and not the popular vote are not ways to do this.


by TheSilverMonkey on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:20:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (2.00 / 0)

You can rest assured the next Gov of MA will be a Republican and you can rest assured if by any chance Obama is elected President, the Republicans will get the majority in 2010.


by Sandeep on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 09:24:16 AM EST

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (2.00 / 1)

The only thing I'm rested assured of is that your rhethoric is not supported by substance/facts.


by marcotom on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 10:53:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (none / 0)

I can understand that you are a better judge of unsubstantiated rhetoric since you have followed them closely as an Obama supporter. So I agree with you on this.


by Sandeep on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 03:23:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: prediction for the rest of the nomination seas (none / 0)

I think Obama will win MI and will either Tiw Clinto in PA or win PA.


by poserM on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 12:46:58 PM EST

Re: prediction for the rest of the nomination seas (2.00 / 1)

If he loses both by small percentages, he wins the nomination.  Pennsylvania is not going to be 15% apart.  I have seen it as close as 6, right now.

Why does he have to win anything?  All he has to do is retain his popular vote and pledged delegate lead.  If he has both of those, they will not overrule it.


by Tantris on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:52:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: prediction for the rest of the nomination seas (2.00 / 1)

That very same polling place has Obama tied up in Michigan, so I don't see how you have Hillary winning by 22, which is a margin od 17 points in the election, unless you assume, for whatever reason, that lead is all delegates (there are 28 there). Also, Obama winning by small margins in Mississippi and North Carolina are silly prospects. Those states are essentially tailor made for him. Not only that, you math is wrong. You say 172 delegates. I added up the numbers you posted and got 189 delegates. Your argument certainly does not seem based on polls, and I really do not see where you pull 70 superdelegates for Hillary, when she has not won a single one since Super Tuesday (she's actually lost 6).Whereas Obama won 40-some supers. He will pull more after this win in Wyoming last night and the win again in Mississippi . The numbers I presented are best-case-scenario to make a convincing case for Hillary representing the will of the people. And that means she needs margins of 66% with Florida and Michigan included. Period.


by TheSilverMonkey on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:58:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: prediction for the rest of the nomination seas (none / 0)

You think she will gain 28 delegates in PA?  That would mean a huge win.  It is close to Ohio in size, she won by 10 there and got 9 net delegates.  All he has to do is keep PA close, and your entire plan is blown.  I am not sure Indiana will go for her, being a neighbor of Chicago.

She will win 22 delegates in Michigan?

I don't think the superdelegates will count successes in California, New York or Massachusetts.  Texas was nearly tied in votes.  Florida and Michigan were beauty contests.  So, you are counting on them to sway the whole thing to her based on Ohio?  Even that argument is removed by polling showing them even in the general election.  I imagine Pennsylvania will be close.

Regardless, this is hugely optimistic for Clinton.


by Tantris on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 01:50:50 PM EST

Re: prediction for the rest of the nomination seas (none / 0)

Yeah, a 19 point win for Clinton in Pennsylvania is pretty far fetched, considering there are 7 weeks to campaign there, and some polls already have it kind of close. Also, Obama tends to at least get things pretty close in northeastern states, if he doesn't end up winning them (Delaware, Maine, Connecticut).


by TheSilverMonkey on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 02:02:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: prediction for the rest of the nomination seas (none / 0)

I think Philadelphia will be very helpful for Obama. Remember way back when in 2004 watching Pennsylvania turning all red and then Philadelphia came and saved the day! I think it might happen again...

Also, I think those Michigan numbers are WAY off. I have a feeling Obama will win Michigan easily. But that's just my completely non-professional, gut feeling opinion.

Obviously the math matters. He will definitely win pledged delegate totals and probably the popular vote. Some people are saying "nope" only because they wish the issues that they care most about, and reasons they voted, are what other voters based/will base their vote on. But clearly, that is not the case (hence the Obama lead).


by cecilybecily on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:25:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (none / 0)

Math is wrong. Hillary does not need 10.5% in EACH remaining state to win popular vote.

Example: Assume BHO has 10 popular vote lead, two states remaining, state #1 will have 90 voters and state #2 will have 10 voters. It should be clear that HRC can catch BRO with 10 point win in EACH state. However, she can also catch him with a 12 point win in state #1 and a tie in state #2.

The point is that she does not need to cover the margin in every state. Indeed, she can lose every single state except one, and still win the popular vote if she wins her only state by a large enough margin. You've got to weigh the states by population; you can't treat them the same.

My sense is that if she wins FL by 12 points and PA by 8 points, she will be able to win the popular vote because these states have so many voters. But I would need the expected # of voters on a STATE BY STATE basis to give any meaningful analysis.


by ThompsonTOT on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 03:47:21 PM EST

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (none / 0)

The Math is not wrong, as you say, just because I did not exhaustively lay out every possible scenario, or post an interactive spreadsheet. It is true that there is variance and some states are weighted more than others. But I gave you my methodology and sources for the information (US Census for population times .8 for eligible voters times .25 for likely turnout, which is a very very high estimate), and it is still not likely. Hillary is not poised to win many of the remaining "big" states, depending on your definition. The Florida vote gives Hillary an additional 300,000 or so votes, it is likely to be much less if there is a revote to that effect. The fact is a 12 point spread in Florida would not amount to much, and it would not accommodate for shortcomings in all the other states. Plus, as I've said, 4 states have not even included their numbers in the popular vote totals, 3 of which went heavily for Obama.


by TheSilverMonkey on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 04:59:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (none / 0)

Yes, you gave methodology. It is wrong because you did not weigh the state by population. Yes, you did give source of information. But is is useless because it does not give the remaining number of likely voters BY STATE.

Here is your conclusion: "Hillary would have to win a 7% point margin above Obama in every remaining contest."

Let me give an admittedly contrived example to prove that your analysis is wrong (your conculusion might be right, but you'd never know by your analysis).

Assume HRC and BHO tie in every single state except Florida. In that case, her margin is 0, and BHO's margin is also 0. Nobody gains or loses any net votes. Then, in Florida, Hillary wins every single vote. She would pick up a net of about 1.3 million votes, clearly enough to win the popular vote.

So it should be clear enough that HRC does not need, as you put it: "To win a 7% point margin above Obama in every remaining contest." Just not true.

Admittedly this is scenario is unlikely, but I make it not to show that your conclusion is flawed, but that your methodolgy is flawed.


by ThompsonTOT on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 05:58:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proper Expectations and The Real Delegate Math (2.00 / 1)

Again, it is weighted by state. I described how if she fails to meet the Expectation Floor, it raises in every other state. Conversely, if she beats her EF, it lowers. Per your Florida example, if she were still behind in popular vote by 600,000 and every other state voted in the situation you described, and there were 1.3 million voters, she would need to win by a margin for 46.2 points instead of 7.5. Point being if she doesn't get 7.5 in EACH state, it raises for ALL SUBSEQUENT states. Obviously the math will differ by state depending on the size. So your hypothetical proves nothing, other than repeating exactly what I'd said if you bothered to read it properly.


by TheSilverMonkey on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:23:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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