Is the Democratic Party Being Torn Apart? Hill, no[bama]!

NOTE: This is my first diary here at MyDD, and I'm glad to be here. I'm a big fan of Hillary Clinton, and I would be devastated if she were to not become the nominee...but I'm a realist, and I know how to do math. So, in the interest of the party (long-term), I'm proposing that we end up with the "unity" ticket of Obama/Clinton, if he goes on to win the nomination, and the same vice-versa if she were to somehow pull it out. The reason I've joined MyDD, and am joining over at DailyKos, after just being a reader for months, is to promote this idea amongst the blogosphere. I really do think that this is the only way to save our party now. So, here goes: my first diary, excerpted from my blog, Progressive Thinker.

First of all, the party has not been torn apart yet. So, quit it, Obama supporters, and deal with the fact that 48 percent, yes, almost half of the voters in the Democratic primaries have supported someone other than your demi-god. Do you honestly think Obama will have a problem raising money for the general election if he's the nominee? Would Hillary? I don't think so...look at the torrid fundraising pace they're both at, and all that money is for the primaries! Obama would outraise McCain at least 2-1 even if we didn't know the nominee until the convention because general election fundraising would start soon after Pennsylvania. So, cut out the whole "the party is being torn apart" thing just because Obama didn't close the deal last night. It's simply not true.

What is true is that the supporters of one of the candidates are going to be EXTREMELY unhappy when their candidate loses the nomination. Right now, it looks to be Hillary. It isn't just Obama supporters that "passionately" back their candidate...while he is in the lead, and it's most likely insurmountable, there is a chance that Hillary could take the popular vote lead with a Florida revote and after Pennsylvania goes, and argue that delegates aren't democratic, using the results of Texas and Washington's split contests as an example. You're just going to say that it's playing dirty, but I think it's a legitimate concern and shows one thing: our primary system is fucked up, seriously. Imagine someone winning the popular vote yet losing the nomination...it's like Gore-Bush 2000 all over again! Not saying it necessarily will happen, but it's a possibility that must be considered.

If Obama is the nominee, Hillary people will be angry (at least 30% claim they wouldn't support him in the general, but that's just people being mad right now). If Hillary is the nominee, Obama people will be angry. It could honestly get violent from the way that especially the Obama people have been acting in recent days toward Hillary and her supporters. I mean, talk about evil...just go to DailyKos and read some of the diaries written by Obama supporters about her. They're so immature and freaky...all of them are threatening to vote for McCain when they know he follows the Republican party line 90% of the time! People are being ridiculous right now because we're in a heated contest, but this doesn't even compare to 1960 or 1980, at least yet. The Kennedys and the Johnsons HATED each others' guts and wouldn't even talk to each other. Bobby even had the gall to challenge Johnson as a sitting president in 1968. Then, Teddy Kennedy challenged ANOTHER sitting president, Carter, in 1980, and seriously divided the party. I mean, come on...you don't challenge a sitting president when you know that doing so will ensure you lose the election! We're not talking about that. Right now, half of the party likes Obama and half likes Hillary, and neither has been able to really break that halfway mark seriously at any point during the campaign. Right now, as ironic as it is, Hillary is retaking 4-5 point leads in the national tracking polls (which shows you what could have happened if her campaign had competed seriously and not been stupid in the caucus/post Feb 5th states) and is pulling closer in places like NC and IN. Neither candidate will have a majority by the time of the convention, so Obama people, stop calling for a candidate who has 48 percent of the delegates to drop out when you can't put her away! Talk about arrogance...

The only thing we can do, and must do to save the party, is form not the "dream," but the "unity" ticket. Obama supporters have to put aside their Clinton hatred and arrogance about pulling in first-time voters for a second and realize that Hillary not only has almost as many delegates/votes as Obama, she's winning the traditional base, the fastest-growing minority group (Latinos) by a big margin, and is pulling in her fair share of Republicans and Independents too. Sure, Obama's winning there, but it's only 60-40...yes, 40 percent of the independents who are voting are going for her, not like 2 percent as it might seem by what you watch on TV. If you put the two together, in either order (although Obama should be on the top based on the fact that he'll probably lead in delegates by the convention), it would piss off each others' supporters for about 2 weeks, and then everyone would realize who the real target is: McCain. Running as more of a co-presidential ticket than a traditional Pres-VP, Hillary would help shore up the base and could deliver or ensure states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey where McCain could be competitive with blue-collar workers. She could also pull in Arkansas and make him more competitive in places like Virginia, Texas, and New Mexico. Obama, with the African-American support and all the young voters going for him, would not only lock up all the Kerry states but could take Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, Nevada, Colorado, and maybe even one of the Carolinas. We'd be looking at 350 electoral votes, an 8-10 point win in the general, and 16 years of Democratic presidents if things went well. With the combined fundraising power and the tenacity of Hillary, who as a VP candidate, would be an incredible go-getter attack dog, the entire party would at least be excited about one part of the ticket and would work enthusiastically for it. Sure, people would grumble, but it would be ok because both of them would "get their chance..." Hillary would become the presumptive nominee in 2016 if she didn't suck as VP and chose to run again, which she might not (although I kind of doubt that). Obama could use Bill Clinton as an ambassador to the world without any hard feelings, right alongside Jimmy Carter and Al Gore. The entire party would be working together. Sure, it wouldn't be exactly what Obama wants (change, opposed to the war) or what Hillary wants (experience, fully-covered healthcare plan) but it would be a GREAT COMPROMISE to save the party, with Obama coming out slightly on top just as the results of the voting show. It could break two barriers at once and would put all the resources behind the ticket.

Imagine how unmotivated the supporters of each of the candidates would be if their candidate wasn't on the ticket. Think how Obama people would feel if Hillary got it...you would hold your nose and vote for her simply because you think she'd be better than McCain, more than likely. Believe me, many Hillary supporters feel the same way about Obama. It certainly wouldn't help Obama's whole "change" thing by having a purely change ticket, but it would signal a change: a policy of working together, despite our differences. As I've said before, if Obama truly wants to become post-partisan, and has all this hope and kindness, he should have the maturity to say "Ok, I won, but she almost won too, so why can't we do it together?" As his first step in attempting to unite the country, he reaches out to unite the party, and we go TOGETHER into November, not leaving anyone out. What better symbolism could there be? None, in my book.

Here's what people are saying about it right now:

http://www.blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stump er/archive/2008/03/05/an-obama-clinton-t icket.aspx

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/20080229/ ts_usnews/obamaclintonticketdrawsmoreint erest;_ylt=AsC4.2nJvvo8oDP1Xdl82DC63q8F

http://thecurrent.theatlantic.com/archiv es/2008/03/the-case-for-obamaclinton-08. php

"Consider the unheralded virtues of an Obama-Clinton ticket. First, politics. Both durable, distinct factions of the Democratic party -- united, and working at full throttle. McCain's national-security edge -- blunted overnight. Obama's domestic-policy edge -- sharpened instantly. Ohio, Michigan, Florida, New Mexico -- suddenly, much less a worry for Democrats.
Now, governing. Obama, by the admissible evidence of his own career, is not an executive. A Vice President Clinton would be a prime minister, tending to Congress and health care reform and trade agreements while Obama travels and inspires and thinks. She would tarnish none of Obama's luster; the qualities he embodies -- that make him so attractive to Democrats here and, well, in the rest of the world -- would be undiminished by the brass-balls first minister he chooses to get things done.

And then there is the personal. Would Clinton survive the humiliation? Could Bill be contained? Is Obama humble enough? The reality is that Clinton has earned something. Her millions of votes, the states she has won, the demographics she commands -- Obama can't dismiss these. At some point, he will make a gesture. Why not the ultimate gesture?"

Why not? Can we do it? Can we win, together? Can we ensure we have a chance to unite the country by achieving unity with ourselves first, fairly with Obama at the top, but not discounting the incredible run that Hillary has had and the millions of new people SHE has brought into the process? Can we satisfy not me, who would be that disappointed, almost crushed Hillary supporter who wouldn't be extremely excited about Obama, but the same Obama supporter who wouldn't vote for Hillary as president in a million years?

Yes, we can. Yes, THEY will. At least, I hope so.


Poll
Would you support a "unity ticket" in November?
Yes
No

Votes: 11
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Re: Is the Democratic Party Being Torn Apart? Hill (none / 0)

You say 30% of Hillary Clinton supporters won't support Obama and the reason is because they are angry .

- I disagree , some of it might be that but a lot of it has to do with fundamental problems with Obama himself .

I have deep reservations about an Obama candidacy not because i don't like him but based on ideological reasons.

I do not agree on his views on national security ,

- I don't agree with his position on talking personally with the dictators.

- I do not agree with pulling out of iraq , infact the whole democratic platform is out of whack for me on iraq including Hillary clinton.

- I have serious doubts about his CIC credentials based on his foreign policy / National security positions.

So it doesn't follow that these voters are angry because of a clinton loss.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:55:21 AM EST

Re: Is the Democratic Party Being Torn Apart? Hill (none / 0)

What you should ask is: was Bush good at foreign policy? Was he a good CiC?

With McCain his anointed, duly hugged successor who has signaled he will continue as Bush's 3rd term, who in their right mind would vote for John "100 years of war" McCain? John "I don't understand the economy" McCain?

This guy is DEAD. He is losing already and we have not even warmed up to hit him. That Bush-hugging, Social Security-screwing, Health Care-profiteering, public-funding-pledge-breaking, War-Mongering, Supreme-Court-stacking, Economy-Tanking guy is DOA. Electability is a JOKE. Our candidates are going to wipe the floor with him. Obama is polling +12% nationally in the latest ABC poll against McCain, and Clinton still a respectable +6%. And our candidates are digging at each other while McCain has coasted to victory in the white-glove Republican nomination.

Either of our candidates is a vast improvement over McCain. He doesn't need to wait for 3AM - he's ready to pick up the phone at lunchtime and call for an invasion of Iran.


by mattw on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:08:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is the Democratic Party Being Torn Apart? Hill (none / 0)

I would be voting for Obama but it is based on my concerns for the supreme court.

I would tell you that talking to dictators personally is not a wise approach , it has nothing to do with bush , dem , repub etc .

it defies common sense.

if you come to Tennessee with that crap you would lose in a landslide even among democrats here.

so it doesn't necessarily follow that it is because of a clinton loss , some supporters are angry and defecting


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:18:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is the Democratic Party Being Torn Apart? Hill (none / 0)

I would tell you that talking to dictators personally is not a wise approach , it has nothing to do with bush , dem , repub etc .

How does ignoring dictators help our interests when they threaten them?


by mattw on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:23:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is the Democratic Party Being Torn Apart? Hill (none / 0)

That Bush-hugging, Social Security-screwing, Health Care-profiteering, public-funding-pledge-breaking, War-Mongering, Supreme-Court-stacking, Economy-Tanking guy is DOA.

You forgot old. He is really, really old. Past retirement age a few years ago. Needs a rest. Did I mention McCain is old?


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:30:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is the Democratic Party Being Torn Apart? Hill (none / 0)

I said "This guy is DEAD."

Oh, he's not that old? My bad.

Yes, he's still really old.


by mattw on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:49:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He is one tough S-O-B. (none / 0)

McCain survived 5 years of torture in Hanoi (after refusing the option to go home in disgrace), and his mother is still alive.
People are not going to see McCain as old, unless he is standing next to the taller, more handsome, youthful, Obama.
Standing next to Hillary, McCain will look like a war hero ready to take on the world, and Hillary will look like a flip-flopper on Iraq (she was for the war before polls went sour).
"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 04:01:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He is one tough S-O-B. (none / 0)

"People are not going to see McCain as old, unless he is standing next to the taller, more handsome, youthful, Obama.
Standing next to Hillary, McCain will look like a war hero ready to take on the world, and Hillary will look like a flip-flopper on Iraq "

Actually to the vast majority of Americans who are against the war, but believe we must find a safe and honorable way out of it, Clinton looks favorably like a heavyweight, with gravitas, capable, steeped in foreign relations and history, and with the backing of 28 retired generals and additional military authorities, next to McCain, who many people feel may be too rigid and lean too far toward a military rather than diplomatic solution.

I love Clinton's approach of both the stick and olive branch, with the artful diplomatic approach. I do not think for a minute that world leaders would regard her as a Bush style warmonger, they might regard McCain as such, as may the American people. I love it also that Clinton is well aware of the gravest danger of the newly established President - that he or she will overreact to events with military force just to prove to the world they are tough, she refuses to make that type of dangerous mistake.

Next to both Clinton and McCain, Obama looks like a lightweight, not ready for prime time.


by 07rescue on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 05:54:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He is one tough S-O-B. (none / 0)

I have bad news for you: Generals support Clinton because they know McCain is losing, and they prefer the more hawkish candidate.

If you see Clinton "steeped in foreign relations and history", it's because you want to see everything she claims at face value, not because it's true. She keeps claiming credit for things like the Ireland peace process, while people involved in it say that she is greatly exaggerating her involvement.

To say nothing of that fact that the only peeople in this race who have already shown they will make a rash mistake with the military are McCain and Clinton. Obama said we'd get bogged down in Iraq for a long time and stir up anti-American sentiment.

If Lindsay Graham could realize there was cause for "grave concern" when he read the NIE, why couldn't she?


by mattw on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:38:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is the Democratic Party Being Torn Apart? Hill (none / 0)

I think Obama supporters would say the same thing about supporting Clinton:
- We think she's a Hawk with only a little difference from McCain
-Frankly, a large segment of Obama supporters just don't trust her
by Socraticsilence on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:09:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is the Democratic Party Being Torn Apart? Hill (none / 0)

Actually, what I meant to say is that AT THIS POINT, 30 percent of Hillary's supporters say they won't support Obama, and I think that's because they're angry because of how rough the campaign has been lately for all sides. My opinion is that most of those people would come home to the party if Obama was the nominee, but they wouldn't be extremely motivated to.

I do agree with you in that I don't think he should talk personally to the dictators either, without preconditions. I think our goal should be to get to a point where we have enough moral authority and support from allies to pressure countries such as Iran and Cuba into changing their ways and rhetoric, or to get to a point where those extreme elements don't keep getting handed ammunition by us day by day, but rather, become marginalized. Honestly, I think Barack Obama could do a lot to improve our relations in the world, but I think Hillary could do better...I think that's reasonable to say.

As for Iraq, I profoundly disagree. I do think that the drawdown must be at a reasonable enough rate to not leave total chaos behind, but we have to get out. We owe it to the next generation of Americans, myself included. George W Bush made a big mistake in invading Iraq the way he did. I agree that Saddam was a terrible dictator who was incredibly cruel and inhumane toward his people. However, we didn't go into war SAYING that we just wanted to take out Saddam...we said we were looking for WMDs which weren't found. I think more people would have supported us if we had just told the truth-that we wanted Saddam out of power because we felt he was a threat to not just us, but Israel, Europe, and his own people.

Barack Obama does not have any military experience, but then again, Hillary's experience consists only of serving on the Armed Services Committee in the Senate, not actually serving in the military...she's got to be careful in playing this card. Someone like McCain actually HAS experience in this field...not saying that experience in this actually leads to good judgment, as evident in McCain's positions. I do respect your opinion about Obama lacking CIC credentials though, and I think that since Hillary raised those concerns this week we're going to be hearing a lot more about that subject.


Clinton/Obama '08, Obama/Clinton '08, whatever unites us and takes us to victory!
by ProgressiveThinker on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:19:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hill's base (none / 0)

Clinton's main supporters, and the ones that are the most vitriolic, are core, long term, Democrats, and Feminists.
Neither of those two constituencies, regardless of what they say, are going to vote for McCain. They may not vote at all, but they certainly will not vote for McCain.
I asked earlier what Hillary die hards would do if Clinton lost the nomination, which I had hoped would happen sooner rather later, but the voters of Ohio came to her rescue, and my guess is that they will go on to support their local and states Democratic incumbents and challengers. Can you really imagine Hillary's base supporters voting against Obama if he is the Democrat above the state and local Democrats on the ballots?
By contrast the bulk of Obama's "new voter" supporters, Obamaicans, unaffiliated liberals, and independent moderates could mostly care less about the Democrat party and their ballot if Obama's name is not on it.
I am not a Democrat, I have never been a Democrat, and I will never be a Democrat.
I see little difference between McCain and Clinton. Both got into politics because of their name recognition, both are typical politicians that seem out of tune with the common people, and neither one of them really offers much promise to inspire the nation to get stuff done.
Obama, on the other hand, is something special, and I would stand up against the gates of hell for him.
"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:39:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hill's base (none / 0)

I am not a Democrat, I have never been a Democrat, and I will never be a Democrat.

OK, so when Obama supporters talk about his ability to bring new voters into the party and make them lifelong Democratic voters, and boost other Democrats in down-ticket races, they probably should not point to fetboy as an example. Right?

What you said in this post describes what some Clinton supporters suspect of most or all the new Obama voters. I.e. that they are ticket splitters, one-trick ponies, good for Obama, but not necessarily good for promoting the long term liberal realignment he claims to represent.

Would you say you are a typical "new Obama voter"?


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:04:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If Obama is on the Ballot (none / 0)

Then people like me will vote.
What, do you think we will only vote on the top spot and leave the other spots on the ballots blank?
If people like me vote for Obama, then we will vote for the Democrats under his name, every 2 years for the eight years that he is in office. And then beyond that if he picks a successor that like wise inspires people.
The problem is inspiration. Hillary just doesn't inspire people me to vote at all.
"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:14:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Correction! (none / 0)

I meant to write: The problem is inspiration. Hillary just doesn't inspire people like me to vote at all.


"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:15:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Obama is on the Ballot (none / 0)

> What, do you think we will only vote on the top spot and leave the other spots on the ballots blank?

I don't know what to expect. That is why I asked.

> If people like me vote for Obama, then we will vote for the Democrats under his name, every 2 years for the eight years that he is in office.

So you would not vote for Obama for President, and then say, an inspiring Green Party candidate for Senate, and inspiring Independent for the House, an inspiring Libertarian for Governor, etc.?  Just the one inspiring candidate at the top of the ticket is all you require? If Obama says you should vote for Constitution Party candidates, you'd do it? Or would you at least find out what the Constitution Party stands for? (Hint, it isn't the Constitution.)

But you didn't answer my main question. Would you say you are typical of the "new voters" Obama is bringing into the process?


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:54:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Obama is on the Ballot (none / 0)

I apologize if my tone seems mocking. I did not mean it that way. I really want to know more about Obama's "new voters".


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:56:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Obama is on the Ballot (none / 0)

I'm 34 years old, I am not a new voter. Go to a collage if you want to talk the them. I am a life time moderate independent. I never registered with a political party because I see them as un-American (George Washington would have nothing to do with them, and called them factions).
My entire life I have been disappointed with the flaky losers the Democrats nominate but, as I said before, Obama is something special, and I would stand up against the gates of hell for him (that's a military thing, and you just won't understand).
I really want a leader that inspires me. Obama does, and Hillary doesn't. That's the best way I can describe it.
"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 04:16:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Obama is on the Ballot (none / 0)

In response to your "down ballot" question, yes, if I vote for Obama I'm not going to leave the rest of the ballot blank. And yes, I would vote for the Democrats, because I would want to prevent congressional grid lock from harming Obama.


"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 04:23:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Right now! (1.00 / 1)

I feel I won't vote for Clinton under any circumstances.
I won't vote for McCain either for that matter.
If Hillary manages to pull this one out of her ass (I doubt it), then I won't vote at all, and I would advise Obama not to go as her running mate.
Though, perhaps my apathy for Clinton, and my disgust with "die hard" Hillary supporters will abate before November, but I doubt it.
But right now I feel confident that Obama will be the nominee, and he'll pick either Webb, Kaine, McCaskill or Sebelius as his running mate.
"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:15:51 AM EST

Re: Right now! (none / 0)

I think that if Obama picked a woman other than Hillary as his running mate, it would cause a lot of backlash by women in the Democratic Party. This is based on what my friends and their families have said in talking to me...I don't think he wants to go there. Also, Sebelius and Napolitano are much more valuable as governors and McCaskill not only has even less time in the Senate than Obama, she displays no presidentiality. Face it, the VP is a heartbeat away from the presidency: who do you want to take over? For me, none of those 3 women fit the bill.


Clinton/Obama '08, Obama/Clinton '08, whatever unites us and takes us to victory!
by ProgressiveThinker on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:22:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And Hillary does? (none / 0)

Don't make me laugh.
Would anybody be considering Hillary if she wasn't Bill's wife.
Sebelius, Napolitano, and McCaskill are all awesome and they got into politics and power without having to be somebody's wife.
I would take Snowe over Clinton.
That's not to say I hate Clinton, I don't, but as much as I try, I can't feel anything but apathy for her.
Yes, I want a woman President, badly, but the thought of President Hillary Clinton makes me cringe. But my feelings change often.
Sebelius and Napolitano are going to be out of office in 2 more years, I say now is a good time to make one of them a VP (and Hillary can stay in the Senate).
"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:56:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Try this (2.00 / 1)

How do you think Obama voters would feel if Clinton edged out Obama and then picked Deval Patrick as her running mate? Do you think perhaps the word "token" might come up?

Granted, you don't think much of Clinton, but millions and millions of people do. Whether you think she deserves it or not, she is one of the most admired women on the planet. Don't you see how insulting it would be to pick a different woman for VP?

If you don't see it, then fine, I can't explain it any better than that.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:14:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Deval Patrick? (2.00 / 1)

I don't think he would want to be her running mate either. He didn't endorse her.
Also, I like McCaskill and Sebelius not because they are women, but because they are my two favorite statesmen (Boxer is my fifth favorite after Webb and Kaine).
Hillary's best chance at a Brown running mate is Richardson.
I like Richardson, but even he is not going to make me feel any less apathetic about Clinton.
In order to cause me to feel comfortable with Clinton, you would have to find a way to make her more inspirational. I'm not saying that is impossible, just right now I don't feel it.
"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:27:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deval Patrick? (none / 0)

I didn't say Deval Patrick because there is a chance she would pick him, or a chance he would accept. He is an African American Governor, comparable, at least in some stylistic ways, to Obama. Pick any prominent black politician that makes sense to you. My point is, that Obama supporters would not be placated by putting somebody they perceived as a "substitute" for Obama on the ticket, and the same goes for Clinton supporters.

I am not saying you mentioned McCaskill and Sebelius because they are women - how would I possibly know your reasons? I am saying that politically, it would be a mistake for Obama to choose a woman other than Clinton as his running mate, because the perception would be that he is "throwing a bone" to the female voters, but could not bring himself to go so far as to give them the woman they actually want on the ticket.

Bill Richardson has nothing to do with this discussion.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 04:11:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deval Patrick? (none / 0)

I don't see any similarities between Patrick and Obama, other than their choice of Axelrod and their skin color.
Perhaps that your problem in that you don't see past their skin color.
You never answered my question. Would you be interested in Hillary if she was not Bill's wife?
I'm a white man (married to an Asian woman), and I never saw Obama as the "Black" candidate. In fact he never marketed himself as the "Black" candidate, in fact he only became the "Black" candidate because the Clinton campaign claimed him as such.
"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 04:32:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Deval Patrick? (2.00 / 1)

> Perhaps that your problem in that you don't see past their skin color.
> You never answered my question. Would you be interested in Hillary if she was not Bill's wife?

Wow, so I am racist, AND sexist now? You know nothing about me. I am done talking to you.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 04:58:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Your are not sexist or racist (none / 0)

To be more correct, I think you are supporting Clinton for the wrong reasons, and giving her credit that she doesn't deserve. And you aren't seeing what us Obama supporters are seeing; that the man is truly inspiring and unifying.
However, the odd greatly favor Obama at the moment, and the only way that Hillary has any chance of catching up in the pledged delegate count is if she wins Pennsylvania by more than 20 points, and gets a redo of Michigan and Florida in a format that would be favorable to her. Neither is likely to happen, certainly not both.
My advice; get use to the phrase "President Obama". I know that will require that you swallow some of your pride, but it will be easier for you to swallow your pride than it will be for us to swallow our apathy.  
"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:34:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your are not sexist or racist (none / 0)

Yet again, you prove that you know nothing about me. I have stated unequivocally that I would vote for Obama without hesitation over McCain. But you wouldn't know that, because you don't bother to find out where people stand before you smear them with innuendo.

You seem to assume that anybody who disagrees with you is doing so through some combination of racism, sexism, ignorance, and hubris. You have accused me of all four in this brief discussion, simply because I asked you a few gentle questions, and tried to explain my thinking on VP selection strategy. I offered you no offense, yet you attack me.

I sure hope you are not a typical Obama supporter, because you certainly make no effort to live up to his unifying message. If he inspires you so much, why is it you refuse to listen to what he is saying, regarding New politics, constructive dialog, etc.?


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 03:07:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

McCaskill and Sebelius. (none / 0)

I think people would see McCaskill and Sebelius as smart, hard working, straight forward, trustworthy running mates. Both of which could step in if there was an emergency, and both of which would make good successors (McCaskill more so than Sebelius, but Sebelius could still run for President in 2016)


"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 04:38:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Token (none / 0)

Another reason why Obama would probably decline to be Clinton's running mate is because he would not want to be seen as token (which is exactly how most white and Black people would see him; "you are not presidential material, but to please the Black people we'll make you VP").


"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 04:50:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

unity tickets (none / 0)

I know emotions are running high right now, but once this thing is settled, a "Unity" ticket is very possible, IMO. At the very least, the winner should be able to say the VP spot was offered and graciously turned down by the loser. That would pluck at least a few ruffled feathers.

As far as the governing part, I think Clinton would be an excellent VP for Obama. The executive branch has been thoroughly trashed by the current occupants. He would benefit from having someone close to him like her - a technician to get things running again, while he goes about his plan to transform the American public into one  giant neighborhood association committee. She would be Johnson to his Kennedy, or (dare I say it?) Cheney to his Bush. (OK, I just threw up a little in my mouth.)

Clinton/Obama works too - as long as Obama is given the right set of issues to work on. This combination would be more like Clinton-Gore, with the VP concentrating on specific initiatives. For Gore, it was "reinventing government", which fit his wonky nature well. Obama could take on issues around improving outreach (an obvious skill), and various Internet reform, net neutrality, speeding up adoption of online government services. Really, anything but healthcare or Social Security would be OK. Hey! she could send him to talk to the dictators! That way they can both keep their campaign promise! ;-)


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:53:58 AM EST

Re: unity tickets (none / 0)

I don't think so. At this point I can't imagine Obama wanted to run as Hillary's second man (to Bill), and an Obama-Clinton ticket just doesn't make any sense.
If Clinton pulls this out of her ass, I think she will lose to McCain.
But Obama would do very well with either Webb, Kaine, McCaskill or Sebelius as his running mate.
"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:03:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is the Democratic Party Being Torn Apart? Hill (none / 0)

ENOUGH of this. The Party is not tearing apart. We go through this every four years. We have elections. We have winners. We have losers and sometimes the winners join with the losers and plow ahead. Enough.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:02:56 AM EST

Clinton/Obama (none / 0)

is the only way to go. She would never consent to be his VP, nor should she. Once again the more qualified experienced woman is the assistant to the less qualified younger man and trains him for the job? I don't think so.

She will have the popular vote and be ahead in the polls. She will deserve to be the nominee.


by foxx on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:13:10 AM EST

Re: Clinton/Obama (none / 0)

Despite all the hyperbole about how self-serving she is, Clinton is a party loyalist at heart. I absolutely believe she would take the VP slot if Obama as the party's nominee told her he needed her. She would also agree to say the job was offered and turned down, if that is what the nominee wanted.

As for Obama, I don't know. I suspect he would accept, under the proper inducement.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:23:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton/Obama (none / 0)

I don't think Obama would need her. But she will need Obama if she pulls this one out of her ass.


"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:31:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton/Obama (none / 0)

I don't want the stronger, better politician, smarter WOMAN Clinton to be subserviant to the weaker, not very good politician, not as good at thinking on his feet MAN Obama.

That would send the message, once again, that better women lose to worse men.

In addition, Hillary would be nearly 70 years of age before she could run again.  Do you really think that this utterly misogynistic country would EVER elect a 70 year old woman?

No!

Don't take a VP slot, Hillary!

I won't vote for Obama, because when it comes down to tough situations, he's incompetent.  Debates, his answer to Hillary's is often "me too+ hope and change"!   The presser on Monday was an utter failure on his part, made him look as lousy as possible.  Then what does he do?  Blames Hillary for it.

He also has thrown every single issue that is important to me under the bus for the sake of winning Dems for a Day.

In addition, he's a thug.  Look at the crap he attempted in Ohio and Texas.

No, that is not a president I'm going to take responsibility for electing.  We're better off waiting four years for a good Democrat, than we are electing an incompetent thug who doesn't believe in core Democratic values.  If we reward Obama for his lousy behavior, where is the motivation to make it stop?


by Sensible on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:23:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is the Democratic Party Being Torn Apart? Hill (none / 0)

I'm a Hillary supporter and most of us are moderates not liberals.  Many will vote for McCain based on the facts that he's a moderate.  Conservative and Reagen democrats will vote for McCain over Obama.  Look, she's 60 years old.  She would have to wait until she was almost 70 to become president.  That's too long.  Obama is only 46 or 47, he should've waited.  She won't accept VP.  


by WAREHOUSE553 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:59:33 AM EST

Hillary wont beat McCain. (none / 0)

He is one tough S-O-B.
McCain survived 5 years of torture in Hanoi (after refusing the option to go home in disgrace), and his mother is still alive.
People are not going to see McCain as old, unless he is standing next to the taller, more handsome, youthful, Obama.
Standing next to Hillary, McCain will look like a war hero ready to take on the world, and Hillary will look like a flip-flopper on Iraq (she was for the war before polls went sour).
"Please. How stupid do I look to you? World Domination. I'll leave that to the religious nuts or the Republicans, thank you." The Monarch (Evil Villain)
by fetboy on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 04:07:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary wont beat McCain. (none / 0)

Standing next to McCain, Obama will look like a green, petulant child.


by Sensible on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:24:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is the Democratic Party Being Torn Apart? Hill (none / 0)

McCain is 72.

Also, he is not a moderate. He just plays one on TV.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 04:15:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]


You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.