Pennsylvania forward

46, or whatever, days until Pennsylvania. I agree with Bowers that Obama has to win in PA, but I don't think he will. It's also true that Clinton has to win in PA, and she probably will.

There's a couple of good reads on the next big primary, in the WSJ and on Expertinent.

The wildcard is how Obama looks going negative. I doubt it wears well on him, especially the petty tax return stuff, which sounds like Republican talking points to most Democrats. Terry Madonna tries to find some sort of path to victory in PA for Obama, but among Democrats that have voted in nearly all the previous states, Obama trails heavily, and that's all whom are going to be voting in PA.

Following PA, a winning streak for Clinton seems much more plausible, especially with a firehouse primary (registered Dems) in Michigan and a Florida primary, than it does for Obama.

The story of this election thus far has had three parts, and they've all played out about the same.

First act: Obama won a maverick-like victory in Iowa, upsetting both Clinton and Edwards. He went on the national covers, and lept to the lead in NH polls. Nevertheless, Clinton came back and won convincingly in NH.

Second act: Obama won a huge blowout in SC, and rode out of the state being declared the next JFK for Dems, with all the Kennedy & Oprah hoopla you could imagine, leading up to the Feb 5th states, especially the California primary. The polls and press said that Obama would win it all that day. Nevertheless, Clinton won the bigger contests, including the pivotal CA contest by 10 percent.

Third act: Obama had the best February past the 5th imaginable, winning every single contest, many by blowouts. He took the lead nationally against Clinton, and outraised her 2:1. Riding into the OH and TX contests, he only needed a victory, and with the help of outside forces, outspent Clinton by a 3 or 4:1 margin in OH & TX. Nevertheless, Clinton won, in Texas by 4 percent, and in Ohio by 10 percent.

Yes, there is a pattern.

It's pretty rare that an upstart candidate gets a shot at beating an establishment candidate even once, and yet, Obama's had three swings and missed each time. He's not going to have another shot at putting away Clinton with everything going from him, as he did his first three chances.

The problem for Obama is that he's run out of chances to put Clinton away. Now, with the next big contest looming in PA, she's the one favored and riding the momentum. I'm sure that Clinton will raised $20-30M, more than enough, to win, even if Obama does raise $50M in March. The national poll numbers have already swung back to favor Clinton. With the potential of having FL & MI contests, it'll be up to Obama to upset the equation, starting in Pennsylvania. Are super-delegates are going to be swayed to vote for a candidate that loses the trifecta of PA/MI/FL, but points to a delegate lead due to wins in Republican states like a caucus like WY and a primary in MS? I doubt it.

I should add that neither Obama or Clinton has, or can possibly have within reason, the number of delegates needed to win this outright. A rule of thumb I have for recognizing the campaign that's 'losing' at the moment is to listen to which one is making their argument based on 'the math' or 'the numbers' of the delegates that are nevertheless not enough-- this won't be won on a technicality.



Display:


Re: Pennsylvania forward (2.00 / 1)

"which sounds like Republican talking points to most Democrats"

Hello pot?  Meet Mr. Kettle...  The 3am thing was straight out of the Republican playbook, and it worked for y'all, so don't complain when the same kind of stuff is thrown back to you!


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:53:13 AM EST

Re: Pennsylvania forward (2.00 / 1)

I guess you don't understand. There are no Obamacans for Obama to appeal to with that dumb tax return argument in the PA primary. You might have missed the '90's, but Democrats know where that argument against the Clinton's is sourced pretty well.

It's basically just Obama trying to stay off the Rezko defensive, which I doubt he'll be able to do, given the Chicago press attitude.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:59:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

So...are you saying that you're in favor of such attacks when directed against Obama?


by rfahey22 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:00:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

yes BUT (none / 0)

you can't seem to add; HILLARY can't make up the total delegate deficit if she continues to let states go uncontested; SIMPLE MATH;perhaps, you should try it


by jjgtrs on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:03:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Simple math is (none / 0)

that neither HC nor BO can win the required number of pledged delegates. There just arent enough up for grabs in the remaining primaries, regardless of whether HC contests.


by Fast Pete on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:58:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

You know, we actually don't know much about the Clintons' financial dealings since Bill left the whitehouse.  And there's no doubt that the GOP will use any and all info that's in there against her in a GE.  If Obama was refusing to release his tax returns, I suspect you might have a different  view on whether it was important information.  


by HSTruman on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:03:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

You're correct. Here is where it is.

AP

March. 5, 2008

CHICAGO - Democratic Sen. Barack Obama on Wednesday blamed his primary defeats in Ohio and Texas on rival Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's criticism and news coverage that he argued benefited her at his expense.

The presidential candidate said he planned to do more in the days ahead to raise doubts about his opponent's claims to foreign policy and other Washington experience. In a television ad that her campaign credits with helping her win, she portrayed herself as most prepared to handle an international crisis.

"What exactly is this foreign policy experience?" Obama asked mockingly. "Was she negotiating treaties? Was she handling crises? The answer is no."



Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:09:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Pledged delegates aren't a 'technicality' (2.00 / 1)

They're the ones that are won through actual voting.

Even with re-votes in FL and MI, HRC still needs to beat Obama by 58-42% margins in each of the remaining contests (or in the net) in order to win the pledged delegate lead, which is a tall order. See the simple math here.

As for Rezko, the press needs to look hard at Clintons' stories like Mark Rich pardon, some messy affair with Peter F. Paul, Norman Hsu, etc, instead of waiting to deal with them in the general election. That's the sort of "vetting" Clintons have got to be put through by the press. Here is a catalog of Clinton money scandals: Everything you ever wanted to know about the Clintons' shadiest donors.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:13:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Mark Rich? (none / 0)

I think that's a dead horse. People are more likely to focus on Hugh Rodham taking $400K from a drug-dealer BC pardoned.


by BlueinColorado on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:31:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pledged delegates aren't a 'technicality' (none / 0)

Why would the press look at the story when federal prosecutor with a mandate for investigation and subpoena power hauled everyone before a Grand Jury and couldn't find any reason for indictment.

This is why Clinton has been vetted and Obama hasn't and why the vetting argument won't work for anyone except Republicans and the OFB.

Every single aspect of Clinton's life, every phone call and every check written from the time he began running for his first office, and has been thoroughly looked into by various independent counsels with subpoena and even, a partisan agenda. Yes, even the pardons. First Mary Jo White, who reportedly can indict a ham sandwich, looked into it and then James Comey - the guy who took over the DOJ when Ashcroft was in the hospital and appointed Fitzgerald to investigate Scooter Libby. That James Comey says he doesn't like the pardons, but there was nothing there.

So, yes, Hillary is more vetted than human being in history. And she has survived the $70 million dollar plus investigation to prove it. And you guys can deny that all you want - but it isn't going to change the fact that an independent looked in to every single aspect of their lives, using over 500 FBI agents and issuing untold subpoenas to do so - and even went through Chelsea's underwear drawer looking for hidden documents - and found nothing.

Do you guys not actually know anything about Clinton that you didn't learn from the Republicans? This is so bizarre.


by Little Otter on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:39:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pledged delegates aren't a 'technicality' (none / 0)

A LOT has happened since the investigation into older Clinton scandals, eg, Clinton Presidential library donation, eg his Khazak Uranium scandal. I don't recall pardons given in 2001 just before he left office being investigated throughly.

Even the old scandals (all kinds: sex, money, influence). Republicans zeroed in on the Lewinsky scandal as there was enough to impeach Clinton with (and lay the baggage on Gore's shoulder in 2000). The rest of the baggage is likely eagerly awaiting and hoping for another Clinton nomination by the Democratic party.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:49:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pledged delegates aren't a 'technicality' (none / 0)

And yet, they came up with nothing. They were reduced to springing a perjury trap (which they didn't quite pull off) because they could find nothing of substance. As you will recall, over 70% of the US was opposed to the impeachment. But then actual historical reality doesn't seem to register with most Obama supporters. Not much party loyalty either. Amazing how quick you guys are to recycle Republican smears.

Man, there isn't much daylight between Obama supporters and Limbaugh.


by Little Otter on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:26:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bill Clinton hobnobbed with Rush Limbaugh (none / 0)

trolling for Republican votes just a couple of days ago.

Even as we speak, Hillary Clinton is SHAMELESSLY AND FALSELY slamming Obama vis-a-vis McCain, by saying that McCain brings a "lifetime of experience" and that "Obama has a his speech in 2002". Does she have no shame to be smearing Obama recklessly and irresponsibly by pushing up McCain and pushing down Obama (who at this moment is the more likely Democratic nominee for President)?

She's throwing the kitchen sink not at Obama alone, but instead on the entire Democratic party. This gibberish from Hillary Clinton should be cut short.

Clintons, their egos and their self-serving ambition are the Limbaughs in the room are.

For the record, Obama has 20 years of public service including 11 years in elective office, as both IL and US senator, with many important bill and results in the areas of ethics/lobbying reform, healthcare, poverty, civil rights and the enviroment: Obama's Record Reference.

And, he did everything he could prevent us from invading Iraq and making the worst blunder we have made in a generation.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 04:21:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill Clinton hobnobbed with Rush Limbaugh (none / 0)

The only gibberish I'm hearing is out of Obama supporters who are busy recycling old rightwing smears since they don't really have any reason to oppose Clinton on substantive grounds. The fact of the matter is - whether you like it or not - Obama's foreign policy experience is nearly negligible and his first foray into the field as a Democratic presidential candidate - his speeech at the Foreign Policy Council - resulted in rioting in Pakistan and him burned in effigy. Not a resounding success.

A lot of Dems have great foreign policy experience. Obama doesn't. Nor did he bother to get more than he had. Couldn't manage to hold a single meeting of his sub-committee - not one. Didn't make it to Iraq. Didn't make it to Afghanistan.

if you run for president on that kind of paltry resume, you're gonna get calle on it - by your fellow party members (who don't want a lightweight to get the nomination) and then in the general. If Obama is going to fail on this topic - he damned well better do it before he has the nomination. Because McCain has a huge amount of experience and he's gonna run hard on it and likely whoop Obama's butt on the topic.


by Little Otter on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 04:44:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She just said on TV (none / 0)

again that "McCain brings a lifetime of experience and Obama brings a speech". The gall she has. Obama needs to push this woman's reckless and selfish smearing (even to the benefit the fucking Republican nominee) back as hard he can.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 05:09:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She just said on TV (none / 0)

It's the truth. Obama's entire campaign is based on one speech he gave as a Democratic candidate running for a  part time state senate position in one of the bluest districts in the nation.

Hillary has been working on foreign policy issues since the moment Bill was running for national office and she was a dominant member of his administration on both policy and execution. She has foreign policy cred - Obama doesn't.

McCain has a lifetime of experience starting as a POW and he is going to take Obama to the cleaners and wring him dry on the subject. Remember, the general election isn't between blue and bluest  - it's between purple and red. McCain isn't going to be going after Obama supporters and changing their mind - he's going to be going after Reagan Dems and hoping to bring them back to the GOP fold. Obama's gonna have a tough time combatting that.

Obama should have prepared better for the run. He shoulda gotten himself to Iraq and Afghanistan, and held plenty of meetings of his subcommittee. He just didn't prepare seriously for this run, and it's going to hurt him badly if he makes it to the general.


by Little Otter on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 06:11:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nonsense. Obama has 20 years of public (none / 0)

service and 46 years of lifetime experience.

To demean his lifetime with this smear is not only false, but disgusting for any Democrat to engage in for selfish gain (partisan gain on your part).

"She has foreign policy cred"

Hillary Clinton and John McCain voted for the war w/o reading the national intelligence estimate. (link).

That makes both of them derelict in their duty and wrong on their judgement. Neither should be President given the enormous cost in lives and money as a result of their recklessness.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 06:24:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nonsense. Obama has 20 years of public (2.00 / 1)

He's a part time state senator who didn't introduce any bills until his final year in the senate. He's a Harvard graduate who is the son of a Harvard graduate married to a Harvard graduate and he has done very little in his life. He did organizing work for a couple years before he went to law school. He got out of law school and went to work for a well-connected real estate firm, representing no less than Rezko who was digging up tens of millions of dollars and running slums with the money. He got into the state senate, did nothing for eight years and then his final year, had bills attached to his name. Go ahead - produce the bills he authored and got signed into law before then. He won kudos from the health insurance industry by watering to their satisfaction a bill that they hated.

He's had a thoroughly mediocre career and at the age of 45 has 1/10 of the accomplishments either Clinton had at that age.

It's all about judgement and Obama's has proven to be seriously flawed. He doesn't know the difference between the opinion of a private citizen and the legislative duty of an elected official. He's shown no interest in working full time. He wasnt' smart enough to not bring Rezko into the deal. He wasn't smart enough to get some kind of real foreign policy experience to his name before he ran.

He's a thoroughly medicre politicians who knows how to work an audience - that's it. He's shown no interest in doing things that better the lives of others, he's shown no interest in working full time, he's shown no interest in foreign policy. He seems thoroughly self-absorbed and thinks himself entitled to the nomination. He is outraged, OUTRAGED, I TELL YOU, that anyone would dare call him on his part time record and lack of action.

He's a joke. He's as privilege as it gets and he and his wife have done nothing with their good fortune that benefits others.

Mediocre, entitled part time state employee, adjunct professor and real estate attorney married to a state bureaucrat - that's who and what he is. He is not Abe Lincoln, or JFK or MLK - he doesn't have any of their accomplishments before the presidency. Just eight years working part time and no bills to his credit until his final year.


by Little Otter on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:17:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But otherwise, you really like him?! (none / 0)

I had to smile. Perceptive stuff there, Otter. You write well. And I strongly endorse this point, further above:

"Obama should have prepared better for the run. He shoulda gotten himself to Iraq and Afghanistan, and held plenty of meetings of his subcommittee. He just didn't prepare seriously for this run, and it's going to hurt him badly if he makes it to the general."

He jumped in 4 years too early. He should have jumped right out again, weeks ago. Hard to see how he'll ever be president now, with his negatives rising daily.


by Fast Pete on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:12:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But otherwise, you really like him?! (none / 0)

Thank you kindly. I agree. Four years to early. Or hopefully, eight years...


by Little Otter on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 01:32:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

'making it' to Iraq or Afghanistan (none / 0)

doesn't absolve voting to authorize the war.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 05:10:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 'making it' to Iraq or Afghanistan (none / 0)

No one running on the Dem ticket voted to authorize the war. Obama didn't vote because he was still working part time as a state senator. And Clinton, as she stated, to support the ability of the weapon inspectors to finish their jobs. Maybe you know more than Hans Blix about what was necessary to achieve unfettered inspections, but I doubt many Americans will believe you.


by Little Otter on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 05:58:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pledged delegates aren't a 'technicality' (none / 0)

Vetted up to 2000.  Nothing since then.  Plenty of stuff to discover in those tax returns.

Calling that issue petty is bullshit Jerome and you know it.   I'm surprised to see you take the bait on that.


by swarty on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 05:27:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (2.00 / 1)

that dumb tax return argument

Clinton and Wolfson didn't think this was such a "dumb" argument whent the Clintons were broke

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/3/6/11234 9/5280

as for "sourcing"... are you referring to the hate-radio host who spent two weeks telling his listeners to vote for Clinton? Or the little troll she was flirting with on FoxNews yesterday?

And as if the campaign isn't odd enough, Hillary appeared on Fox & Friends this morning.

"I'm told no one won the party's nomination in recent history without winning their party's primary in Ohio."

She sounds ebullient, as she makes a reference to Karl Rove, who had appeared a moment ago.

Then Rove passes a note to Steve Doocy, "More U.S. presidents have been born in the month of October than in any other month. Hillary, you were born in..."

She laughs, and not the preprogrammed cackle. "October! Thank you, Karl. The omens are just stacking up, what can I say?"

Yup. That Karl.


by BlueinColorado on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:29:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

Your bias is plain, Jerome.


by hawkseye on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:34:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

Also, I thought it was important to make sure all the candidates were "vetted."  Heck, that's been one of her primary arguments the entire campaign and she's gonna have to disclose her tax returns during the GE.  

If there's nothing in them, why not release them now?  I mean, this is info we KNOW the GOP is going to have access to later.  It seems, by her own logic, this is a legitimate issue.  


by HSTruman on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:59:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

Another thing that hasn't been vetted - "35 years of experience," including 8 in which she may or may not have been working behind the scenes in the White House.  She's had a free pass on that so far.


by rfahey22 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:01:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

That's a technicality. Like the number of pledged delegates.

And I hope Armstrong understand that Bowers's argument isn't 'Obama needs to win PA and Clinton needs to win PA'.

It's, 'For this to be over, Obama needs to win PA.'

I'm pretty fond of both candidates, but some of the trash being written by supporters--especially when pretending a sorta of above-the-fray journalistic neutrality--is embarrassing.


by BingoL on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:11:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

And it saddens me greatly that this is what Jerome A. has become. There are so many absurd things written in this entry that it is astounding.


by Benjaminomeara on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:47:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

All indications are that going into PA, Clinton will actually be further behind in pledged delegates than she was before tuesday.  With even fewer available delegates out there.  Moreover, Obama is gong to continue to win states after PA as well, so we won't see a scenerio where Clinton rolls into the convention on a huge winning streak.  Looking at all of that, I think your prediction here couldn't be more wrong.

Also, I would add that you seem to ignore the many times that Clinton has failed to knock out Obama.  She closed in Iowa and if she would have won there this thing never would have gotten started.  She was up everywhere on Super Tuesday but ended up losing the delegate count there handidly.  And then she lost everywhere for an entire month.  You can keep spinning that as signs of strength for the campaign that came into this contest as the presumptive Democratic nominee, but I don't see it at all.  


by HSTruman on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:57:13 AM EST

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

The diarist cannot apparently do math.

Hillary Clinton needs a 30 point victory in Pennsylvania, then 20 point victories in every other contest, just to pull even.

And that's in delegates allocated, so the electoral math is even worse for her.


Bill Foster would agree, Barack Obama has coat tails.
by Walt Starr on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:43:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

The WHOLE CAMPAIGN has been Hillary having to knock out an upstart despite massive structural/financial advantages in 2007 and not doing so.  

Frontrunners have to knock out upstarts -- that's how most primaries work.  Mondale eventually knocked out Hart, Clinton knocked out Tsongas in GA, Bush knocked out Dole in NH then Super Tuesday, W knocked out McCain in SC, Gore never allowed Bradley to get started.

Here, the frontrunner let the upstart win the entire campaign until Tuesday.  As a result, it goes to a delegate fight and that favors Obama.

Delegates matter at this point.  Spin doesn't.


by ChrisR on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:45:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

Did you read before your obama campaign memo post? The diarist is saying the delegate count isn't the issue. So you response is: did you do the math?

Listen, disagree if you want, that is great. But at least argue the points the diarist makes.


by Marvin42 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:36:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

I rather clearly disagree with the basic premise being offered.  Hadn't realized that wasn't allowed, sorry.  Feel free to continue arguing about how delegates don't matter.  Carry on.


by HSTruman on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:45:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

Yes, she's "inevitable" again after winning three states subsequent to losing 12 in a row, including one of those supposed "red states" that we won't win in the general election (but it's big, so I guess by the logic around here that cancels out the red state issue).  How anyone can say that she's favored when her path to the nomination rests entirely on winning a sizable majority of superdelegates is beyond me.


by rfahey22 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:57:33 AM EST

When Obama ends up with more pledged delegates... (none / 0)

...and more popular votes, I really hope for the sake of the party that the superdelegates do the right thing at the convention. Because if they don't, there isn't going to be much of a Democratic Party anymore.


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:58:18 AM EST

Re: When Obama ends up with more pledged delegates (none / 0)

how do you calculate the popular vote?  do we count texas twice?

do we really count the caucus states despite all of the rules which eliminate all sorts of would be votes?

pointing to popular vote as a tiebreaker is impossible.  hell, pointing to pledged delegates is shaky at best when, like in texas, you have some segments of the population whose votes don't count as much as others.    


by oldnorthstate on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:09:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Why even hold elections under your theories... (none / 0)

...that popular vote is uncountable and pledged delegates are meaningless? This whole "democracy" thing is just too hard, so let's return to the old days of smoky backrooms where the insiders pick the nominee?


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:22:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why even hold elections under your theories... (none / 0)

get back to me when we have a truly democratic primary.

i agree, why hold an election if you can win a state, but lose the vote?


by oldnorthstate on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:37:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why even hold elections under your theories... (none / 0)

Pledged delegates and the popular vote aren't perfect, but they are as good a measure as any.  Certainly, they are better than taking the primary results from 2-3 "big states" and divining that one candidate will win the election based solely on those results (and without pissing off all of the Democrats in the "insignificant" states).


by rfahey22 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:40:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

look we already got the memo (none / 0)

about insignificant states. No reason to reiterate it.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:34:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

jerome & kos (none / 0)

tweedle-dee & tweedle-dum? are these 2 for real? kos's predictions for tuesday were the worst EVER; is jerome trying to top him now?


by jjgtrs on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 10:58:18 AM EST

Re: jerome & kos (2.00 / 2)

I guess you missed mine, which pretty much nailed it on Tuesday.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:00:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: jerome & kos (none / 0)

Heh.  Kos was definitely off, though I'd rather rely on SUSA than you guys.

By the way, has anybody had their ability to rate posts disappear on them?  Is it a settings issue?  I haven't seen the rate bar for a day now.


by rfahey22 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:04:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

nope (none / 0)

i caught yours AND I was impressed(kos's sucked out loud); yours were good BUT the delegate count only changed slightly; sorry, but hillary can't make up the difference


by jjgtrs on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:05:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nope (2.00 / 1)

I think the point of this post is not that she can make up the difference, but that if she has all the momentum, victories in what superdelegates consider nearly all the biggest swing states, and a popular vote lead, then superdelegates may be inclined to give it to her rather than the one who got fewer popular votes, has less momentum, and lost the big key swing states, but has more pledged delegates.


by dcg2 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:11:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nope (none / 0)

popular vote lead?? are you using kos/jerome math? by the time of PA primary obama will have increased on his already sizable popular vote lead; your argument makes no sense in that regard; however, it loses ALL credibility once you realise that the PA primary will only slightly close the delegate gap AND there will still be elections AFTER pa that obama will win because(once again) hillary will fail to put up a fight(she LOST this election already because even though she raised a ton of money; she spent it unwisely); her campaign's burn rate has been horrendous; blame her or mark penn or patti solis doyle(or the tooth fairy) BUT not being competitive in the caucus states(where, if contested, i feel she could have won many delegates because of the 15% threshold math) has killed her chances at the nomination; in TX, she LOST because of organisational deficencies of her campaign


by jjgtrs on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:32:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nope (none / 0)

It's difficult to conceive as to how she would win the popular vote.  Moreover, four or five states haven't even released their vote totals and would likely show a net gain for Obama in that regard.


by rfahey22 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:37:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nope (none / 0)

Per DemConWatch, there are only 282 remaining uncommitted SDs.

Let's say they break for HRC 60-40.  Wouldn't you agree that this is very optimistic for her?

Well in that scenario, she nets only 57 delegates.  

You don't honestly hope or believe that she'll get ALL of the remaining SDs, do you?


by goodnbad on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:00:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nope (none / 0)

I don't thing anyone's superdelegates are really set yet.

If Obama wins PA and blows her out in all the other states, her SDs will abandon her to make sure that he is the nominee.

Likewise, if over the next 3 months it becomes clear that the ultimate judgment of the voters is that Hillary should be the nominee (meaning if she is winning nearly all the states, has moved into a lead in the popular vote, seems to have the momentum, and maybe a lead in the polls), then I think even Obama's SDs will move to her.


by dcg2 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:54:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: jerome & kos (none / 0)

First time that's happened, and you think crowing about it is the way to go?


by Cycloptichorn on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:30:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: jerome & kos (none / 0)

sweet jerone - you finally get one right and then mock people for it.
and then completely miss the ball again

penn is 7 weeks away, so much can happen between now and then... no one (including you) knows how it will go

you have been off so much this race, i think i'll err on believing your predictions will be wrong again and obama will win the nomination (she will drop out before the convention)


by chriscizzila on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:40:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

Well, I'm in one of those states that don't count, like Minnesota, Missouri, Iowa, Wisconsin, Washington, Oregon and Connecticut.

Just seventy-two insignificant electoral votes that don't matter.


by BlueinColorado on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:01:16 AM EST

exactly (none / 0)

hillary's campaign let's states go uncontested; she CAN'T win that way; pure and simple


by jjgtrs on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:06:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: exactly (none / 0)

i agree.

she's never win by not contesting utah.


by oldnorthstate on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:11:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

YOU ARE AN IDIOT (none / 0)

this nomination is about delegates ONLY; not contesting states(and thus losing DELEGATES),was and is a STUPID campaign strategy; when she loses the DELEGATE count and thus the nomination, it will be HER fault alone


by jjgtrs on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:36:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: exactly (none / 0)

Do you really want to put forth a nominee who writes off 35 states wholesale?


by rfahey22 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:43:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

I'm with you.  I didn't realize, when I agreed to be born in Nebraska, that living in a red state meant I didn't get a voice in the Democratic nomination.

"Technicality", right.  So long as Obama maintains a popular vote lead, his lead in pledge delegates remains anything but a technicality.  This is a democracy, and we are a national party.  You don't get to choose which votes are important or which voices will be heard.


by Ryan Anderson on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:08:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

WYOMING:
Caucuses on March 8 with 12 delegates

MISSISSIPPI:
Primary is March 11 with 33 delegates

two more Obama wins and delegate pick-ups..but they don't matter..(well except it stops the Clinton momentum..and adds to Obama's lead.)


"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:01:37 AM EST

Re: Pennsylvania forward (2.00 / 1)

First act: Clinton says she is inevitable.
Second act: Clinton says it will be over after Super Tuesday.
Third act: Clinton so far behind in pledged delegates she needs a blowout on March 4., even by her own campaign's admission.
Fourth act: No blowout on March 4.

Yes, there is a pattern.


by tractor on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:02:17 AM EST

Precisely. (none / 0)

This is great spin by Jerome. Each campaign can make the same case that Jerome just made here. For Clinton she could have knocked Obama out several times.

1. A Clinton win in Iowa would have ended this before it started.

2. A Clinton win in South Carolina would have ended this prior to Feb 5.

3. A Clinton win on February 5th would have given her the nomination. This would have been as simple as contesting all of the states.

4. Contesting and winning any of several of the February primaries which could have been close. She ought to have contested Maine and done more to split the the Potomac Primary. This would have limited the February momentum for Obama and allowed Clinton a March 4 landslide.

5. A Clinton landslide on March 4th would have allowed the campaign to reset. Clinton remains approximately 150 delegates behind and will only end up picking up 4 delegates on March 4th. Her campaign said they needed a landslide yesterday, they didn't get it.


by Obama08 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:35:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

The media perpetuated the "inevitability" meme - not Hillary.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:39:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They had better not (none / 0)

I really don't think that dems in GA and MS and WY should be telling me who I will have to vote for in the POTUS election...


by linc on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:03:48 AM EST

Re: They had better not (none / 0)

Minnesota, Iowa, Connecticut, Wisconsin, Maine, Washington State, Maryland, Delaware, Vermont, Hawaii, DC, Illinois, Colorado, Missouri...

Any other states that you don't want in the fall?


Wiz in Hussein Wis
by Wiz in Wis on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:04:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

You are making a huge assumption that a revote will occur in Florida and Michigan. I doubt anything will happen in Florida, and a fireside vote will favor Obama in Michigan.


by mecarr on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:05:15 AM EST

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

You think Michiganders will look kindly on the fact that they must vote twice because Obama took his name off their ballot for no good reason?

There is zero chance, at this point, that state will go for Obama. He's insulted them. And we need their votes.


by Little Otter on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:43:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (2.00 / 1)

We'll have a brokered convention at this point either way.  Then one half or the other of the Democratic Party will threaten to succeed and somebody will force the two onto the same ticket.  I think PA determines who goes first.

The DNC does a massive rethinking of the primary process, Dean walks away from political life and the combined ticket wins in November.

That last portion can happen in any particular order.  That's how I'm calling it at this point.


by ejintx on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:05:48 AM EST

PA? (none / 0)

PA determines who goes first? Not the winner of the most pledged delegates and the popular vote?


John Edwards 2008
by MeanBoneII on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:13:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA? (none / 0)

I think Clinton can argue that Obama's advantage is caucuses and that they are unfairly skewed against her.  She has won Florida, Ohio and if she wins Pennsylvania, she can make the claim that they need her to win those states.

Now, Obama can argue about Washington State and a few others.  But, ultimately, we need Pennsylvania.  If he wins, great.  If not, do we want to push forward a candidate that's in trouble in Pennsylvania?


by ejintx on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:23:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA? (none / 0)

Why are they unfairly skewed against her?

That's the point of the argument that she and her followers have completely failed to make.

The truth is that they are NOT unfairly skewed against Clinton; the truth is that Clinton SKIPPED the caucus states out of hubris and didn't try and compete there, and now claims they were 'unfair.'

Horse hockey


by Cycloptichorn on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:31:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA? (none / 0)

Just look at Texas.  Doesn't make a lick of sense when you look at the popular verses caucus results.


by ejintx on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:39:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA? (none / 0)

You also need Wisconsin and a slew of others.  Last I checked, Clinton was down by 10 in Wisconsin to McCain and Obama had a sizable lead.  Having a lead (a primary lead, mind you) in Pennsylvania is worthless if it simply means that she is on the defensive in other states that have an equal or greater number of electoral votes.  Clinton won't automatically carry the Gore-Kerry states, you know.


by rfahey22 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:45:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA? (none / 0)

Let me be the first to thank you for addressing the post you responded to directly.

Go look at the diary Obamafan has up right now, showing that both of them would win, but they would receive very similar EVs in their victories.  Thus, they're about par.  My feeling on it is that we'll have 16 years of Democratic leadership if Clinton goes first.


by ejintx on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:56:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA? (none / 0)

Well, Democratic leadership is the goal of everyone here.  I probably disagree with your choice of candidate to accomplish that, but in the end either would be a good executive and certainly better than McCain.


by rfahey22 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:19:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

You said a mouthful.  Simplest is always best.  Why in the hell don't we just go to a straight up popular vote in every state.  Delegates could be apportioned in a ratio based purely on population, regardless of congressional district lines or precincts.

Primary elections should absolutely be restricted to registered Democrats.  I know, I know, caucuses are magnificent at party building, but we have to come up with another way to do that, since caucuses are time-consuming, confusing and undemocratic.


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:21:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (2.00 / 1)

I've caucused in Iowa and Texas, and may I be the first to say that Iowa has it down to a science.  But, I think we need to switch to primaries, because I can't tell you how confusing caucuses can be and they disenfranchise a lot of voters in the process.

I think we need to think some about the order of states as well.  It never made sense to me the way the order went.


by ejintx on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:25:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

Oh and I totally agree with awarding delegates based on population - this rewarding loyal Democratic districts nonsense discourages voters in traditionally Republican districts from voting.  In Teas, Travis County (Austin) has eight delegates.  What the hell?  It's definitely not the largest city by far.


by ejintx on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:28:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

tell ya what (none / 0)

first you come up with another equally good system for building up party participation and then we will talk about banning caucuses.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:40:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: tell ya what (none / 0)

Did you see the news this morning about the disasters in Texas?  Do we really want this to be the way the public sees our party?

Caucuses are great for the party faithful, but far too complex for the general public to undertake in any large numbers, as has been made clear during this primary season...


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:51:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

they were not so problematic (none / 0)

when Bill Clinton used Texas primaries to win teh nomination.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:17:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

Hmmm, that sounds much like what I've been saying all along!  Only thing I'd maybe disagree on is that I think OH already determined who goes first (they've been "right" for 44 years after all)--and PA will simply help reaffirm that, as did TX on Tuesday!  And let's just hope that the DNC does do some massic rethinking of the entire primary process!

Also, although I don't think it would be best for the country, I think that IF Hillary pulls out the nomination as I think she will she would in fact be forced to ask Barack to be VP for the sake of all the first-time voters that otherwise wouldn't stick around for the general election or even perhaps the future.  However, I think he might actually prove to be too prideful and too ambitious to actually accept (even though that would probably be the best possible thing for his own career as well--let's face it, he's followed in Hillary's footsteps on so much, he could continue gaining experience by following in her footsteps and then actually be more prepared to be a formidable candidate in 8 years).  


HRC: "...not a vote to rush to war--it...puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President, we say to him 'Use these powers wisely and as a last resort.'"
by ChargedFan on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:30:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania forward (none / 0)

I'm more worried about him than her; I think she recognizes the need to have him, and what good he could do in the future and what an excellent candidate he would be after eight years as a VP (or hell, even four if she decides she doesn't want a second term).  If he wold just accept, he'd make me the happiest little ejintx he could.  I'd gladly support and vote for him with the blessings of the Kennedys and the Clintons in four or eight years.


by ejintx on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:35:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

hell why even have any contests except Ohio then (none / 0)


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:43:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I mostly agree with your analysis (none / 0)

I wonder, though, whether they'll be swayed by all the threats by Obama supporters to sit out the election if Hillary is the nominee?

Many seem convinced that even if she has the popular vote edge, a lead in national polls, all the momentum, the seal of a approval from late-deciding states, and victories in states that make up a solid majority of electoral votes, but a 1-pledged delegate disadvantage, that nominating Hillary would be "stealing" the nomination.

Further, because he has adopted the scorched earth tactic of branding her and Bill as race-baiters, that has had a divisive effect on a small, but important segment of the base.  

I just wonder whether all that stuff can bully the Superdelegates?


by dcg2 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:06:50 AM EST

Re: I mostly agree with your analysis (none / 0)

Obama supporters that won't vote for HRC aren't Democrats.  Listen, I'd vote for Obama if he is the nominee but that would be a reluctant vote because I don't think he is ready to answer the phone at 3 AM.  What's he going to do, make a speech?

National security is something that I weigh heavily when I go to the polls.


The Kentucky Democrat
by kydem on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:09:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I mostly agree with your analysis (none / 0)

Maybe you can explain exactly what Hillary's "national security" credentials are.  I've love to hear about them.  I know she did a bang up job on Iraq and her Iran votes are "awesome."  Anything else, besides her diplomatic missions with SinBad?  


by HSTruman on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:11:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I mostly agree with your analysis (none / 0)

What's he going to do, make a speech?

That's just so stupid.  All candidates make a lot of speeches.  Obama just happens to be really good at it and Hillary isn't. So she makes fun of him and her followers follow suit.  I trust Obama's judgement when answering that phone immensely more than Hillary's. She has looked like an emotional train wreck too many times on the campaign trail. Plus just look at their past histories to see who has the better judgement.  I don't see how anyone could want Hillary answering that phone.
by Becky G on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:18:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I mostly agree with your analysis (none / 0)

And you just took a sarcastic comment as being non-sarcastic.


The Kentucky Democrat
by kydem on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:19:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I mostly agree with your analysis (none / 0)

Are you going to enlighten us on her national security credentials?  I'm still waiting...


by HSTruman on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:32:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, please do tell about em credentials n/t (none / 0)


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:45:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I mostly agree with your analysis (2.00 / 2)

Somebody cited a poll the other day that more Clinton supporters will just not vote or defect to McCain than Obama supporters (it's like 25% to 10%).  Hence the need for a unity ticket.

Either way, the two houses of the Democratic Party have met and do not like each other.  I wonder how long we will be able to hold ourselves together without the unity ticket.


by ejintx on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:10:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I mostly agree with your analysis (none / 0)

Fair point.  I think it would be good to have them together, but I don't think it'll happen unless the party elders force them to do it (and they decide to  accept it).

I could more easily see Clinton/Obama than the other way around because I think Obama probably doesn't want Hillary's baggage on his ticket.


by dcg2 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:13:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I mostly agree with your analysis (2.00 / 1)

Agreed.  I don't think it works with Obama at the top; both would have a hard time working on that.  I said on a different diary that if it's Clinton/Obama, we'll have 16 years of historic, strong Democratic leadership.  I think that's the ideal.


by ejintx on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:30:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

yeah I am gonna need some numbers (none / 0)

on that.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:46:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah I am gonna need some numbers (none / 0)

25% of Clinton supporters would defect or just not vote for Obama, 10% of Obama's would do the same.  There's some numbers.  Are you arguing a unity ticket is bad or that Clinton shouldn't be at the top?


by ejintx on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 11:50:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I guess the second point (none / 0)


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:08:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I guess the second point (none / 0)

So you don't want 16 years of strong leadership?


by ejintx on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:12:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

sure, (none / 0)

Obama/Clinton shoudl be able to provide that.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:25:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sure, (none / 0)

Is Clinton going to want to run in 2016?  Nope.


by ejintx on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:29:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think predicting 8 years into (none / 0)

the future is a bit too much.

And that seems like thats what you base your argument on.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:35:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think predicting 8 years into (none / 0)

I'm predicting that Obama would gain more than enough experience to make an excellent case in 2016.


by ejintx on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:00:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

surely, (none / 0)

it does not mean he should stop making it now.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:15:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Reread ejintx's words (none / 0)

"..the two houses of the Democratic Party have met and do not like each other"

How true!  But I believe that our disdain on the Clinton side runs much deeper and, so far, polls indicate that more of us would walk.  Doesn't surprise me.  Many of us in this coalition have walked before.  We don't like the McGovernite wing and, since we are older on average, our resentments have been baking and hardening for many more years.


by lombard on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:28:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reread ejintx's words (none / 0)

Funny, I thought you guys were the McGovernite wing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/us/pol itics/02texas.html


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:32:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Those are a few McGovern operatives (none / 0)

Hopefully, they have acquired more wisdom with age (as have the Clintons).

The present day counterparts of the McGovern movement are clearly supporting Obama.


by lombard on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 04:55:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reread ejintx's words (none / 0)

Senator McGovern, a genuine American hero, has endorsed your candidate.  Are you sure you should be so ready to throw him under the bus?


by Progressive Witness on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 01:39:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I didn't criticize Senator McGovern (2.00 / 1)

I agree that he is a fine man.  I was referring to the wing of the party that championed him.


by lombard on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 02:16:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I didn't criticize Senator McGovern (none / 0)

Thank you.  McGovern has been maligned, and within this Party, a phenomenon about which us South Dakota Progressives get a little tetchy at times.  Chalk me up to that.

Thank you for clarifying.

I don't see McGovern v. the McGovern wing as a distinction without difference, necessarily, so I ask genuinely out of curiousity:  what do you see as the difference between McG and his team/supporters/fans/etc.?  Tone, policy, or something else?


by Progressive Witness on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 03:05:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]