Dem contest & states

Unlike alot of the pundits, I admit to having no clue as to how this is going to wind up. I've been right, I've been wrong, and the only thing I'll guarantee is more of the same. I especially have no idea as to what will determine the winner of the democratic nomination.

I know one thing: neither Clinton or Obama has enough won delegates to claim the nomination.

You can ignore the electoral counter part of this map, as it doesn't mean anything, but what this does show us is the states that are upcoming by region. Obama in Green, Clinton in blue, and the remaining states in gray.




It's an interesting mix, with states like Indiana and Oregon probably the biggest toss-ups. Wyoming & Miss are both going to favor Obama, and be over by a week from now. After that, it's a long way to the next states, but here's how I'd lean the leftover states:

Lean Obama: South Dakota, Montana, North Carolina

Toss-Up: Indiana, Oregon, Guam, Puerto Rico

Lean Clinton: Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Kentucky

It also remains to be seen what will happen with Michigan and Florida, both of which Clinton won-- the disputed duo. I'd like to see them both hold new primaries, but otherwise, I don't expect the superdelegates to ignore their results.



Display:


Puerto Rico is not a toss up (none / 0)

It's not even close.  Landslide for Hillary Clinton.  It's not just a guess because the island is Hispanic -- there are deep connections there with the Clintons and New York state, etc, etc.

You'd just need to be following Puerto Rican culture and politics for a while to know this.  The current governor is not that helpful to anyone btw.


by diplomatic on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:06:18 AM EST

Re: Puerto Rico is not a toss up (none / 0)

But by the same token, Oregon should go to Obama in a landslide


Take back the Court!
by NewHavenDave on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:11:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Puerto Rico is not a toss up (none / 0)

Huh, you want to bet on this one? Seriously, there will not be a landslide in PR, the reason there has been in every previous contest is due to the fact that none of them were contested (this is also why there is the misconception that PRs winner take all). Actually, if I'm Hill I'm praying that for some reason BO drops before Puerto Rico, because if he doesn't then the FALN pardons become national news, and if that happens she might as well kiss the General goodbye. Serious, that is a scandal that wasn't big in 2000 due to it coming at the end of Clinton's term and it being overshadowed by Marc Rich, but it wont look good, when Fox News starts interviewing maimed NYPD officers and asking them if they think that their attackers should have gotten a pardon.  Headline: Clinton Pardoned Murdering (or Cop-maiming, I can't decide which is better) Latino Terrorists-- then the implication it was done to help Hill win the PR vote (in NY, but that wont matter), yeah that will go over well (hell it might be the one thing that allows McCain to get his base while still drawing lation support for immigration).


by Socraticsilence on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:32:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As long as Hillary doesn't tell the media... (none / 0)

...that a victory in Guam means the public at large wants her as the nominee, I can live with that.  ;-)


by palamedes on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:02:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ok, Puerto Rico has tons more delegates (none / 0)

And Puerto Ricans are more represented constituents in Florida and New York, so I'd just like to emphasize that Puerto Rico is not just another Guam.


by diplomatic on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:32:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest & states (none / 0)

Boy would I feel good if this were an electoral vote !


by KyleSIU on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:07:46 AM EST

Re: Dem contest & states (2.00 / 1)

Evan Bayh will deliver Indiana to Clinton.


by truthteller2007 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:11:30 AM EST

Re: Dem contest & states (none / 0)

I have doubts.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:58:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Having doubts is healthy (none / 0)

Helps to prevent complacency.  I would hope that the Clinton campaign has the same doubts and doesn't overlook Indiana.


by diplomatic on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:33:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Having doubts is healthy (none / 0)

I really don't think she will. She personally ran Jimmy Carter's campaign operation in Indiana in 1976, so she has a history with the state. It's fair to say that must be some of the reason why she knows Evan Bayh so well-- she had worked with his father Birch who was the state's U.S. senator at the time.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:31:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest & states (none / 0)

Indiana and Oregon are easily lean Obama.  PR and Guam are also easily lean Clinton.


What would LBJ do?
by Socks The Cat on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:17:07 AM EST

Re: Dem contest & states (none / 0)

Why is Indiana easily lean Obama in your opinion?


Yes, I am a Clintonista for Obama.
by Denny Crane on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:21:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest & states (none / 0)

The last poll there had Obama up by double digits but it was only 40-25.


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:33:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

it's really stark (none / 0)

That map is really stark in terms of a Democratic victory in 2008 and beyond.

What are considered the swing areas that the Democrats need to win for election?

(1) Upper midwest (especially Ohio, but also Pennsylvania, Michigan, etc.)  -- all looking strong for Hillary

(2) Upper South/Appalachia (Arkansas, Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia) -- all looking strong for Hillary

(3) Southwest (Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada) -- all looking strong for Hillary

(4) Florida -- a great state for Hillary

Obama's victories largely occurred in small plains states that Democrats never win anyway, and in deep South states that Democrats never win anyway (with his pledged delegate lead due to big margins among small number of voters in caucuses in   small red states).


by markjay on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:18:59 AM EST

Re: it's really stark (2.00 / 1)

That is simply dishonest. Colorado, Iowa and Missouri are swing states. Florida seems out of reach for both Democrats this year and Michigan would probably be a toss-up at best if a revote took place.

As a matter of fact: both won plenty of swing states and an argument based on this won't hold up for either candidate. Both of them can win a GE and it won't be a cakewalk for either of them.


by marcotom on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:28:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it's really stark (none / 0)

Virginia too is starting to trend blue although that might have to wait until 2012.

Minnesota and Wisconsin shouldn't be taken for granted for that matter.  Yes, we've been winning them but not by wide margins.


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:35:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it's really stark (none / 0)

Obama can win Virginia, particularly with a Virginian on the ticket with him.


by mainelib on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:22:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it's really stark (none / 0)

Point out, that polls consistently show McCain over Clinton here (MN) and there's very little enthusiam for Clinton.


by MNPundit on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:04:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it's really stark (2.00 / 1)

So what you're saying is that you expect California and New York to vote for McCain?


by Brillobreaks on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:41:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it's really stark (none / 0)

I expect Hillary to win both California and New York.  If Obama is the nominee, I would certainly hope he would win those states, but, if he lost either, it would mean that he likely also lost many of the swing states and went down to a monumental defeat.


by markjay on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:59:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

why would he lose (none / 0)

either.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:47:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why would he lose (none / 0)

I don't expect he would lose either, but, to be honest, I couldn't say for sure about California.  John McCain is very close to the Schwarzenneger wing of the Republic  Party, and Schwarzenneger won big in California.  Other Republicans perceived to be moderates, such as Pete Wilson, have also done very well here.  In particular, I would expect many Latinos and Asian-Americans, who turned out overwhelmingly for Clinton in California, to vote for McCain in a McCain-Obama general election.


by markjay on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:51:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

McCain has the same chances (none / 0)

in california as a snowball in hell.

Schwarzenneger won a lot on independents and popularity factor. He then proceed to bully peopel and lost everyone of his ballot initiatives 2 years later. The main reason he did it is because he went too republican.

No way that Arnold's will bring Cali to McCain.

And this just makes no sense:
"In particular, I would expect many Latinos and Asian-Americans, who turned out overwhelmingly for Clinton in California, to vote for McCain in a McCain-Obama general election."


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:24:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain has the same chances (none / 0)

A snowball in hell ?

If a snowball ever got to hell, it sure would have a decent chance to survive... because it would mean that hell does not exist in the first place.

Sure, McCain can win California against Obama.  He could win against Clinton too (although that is a little bit more doubtful).  It is also true that Obama could win against McCain.

They say that only prophets and fools make prophecies.  And noone here is a prophet.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:09:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

so basically (none / 0)

you said nothing in your post.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:26:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so basically (none / 0)

Oh, I am sorry...did I say something prophetic ?

That would make me a fool then !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:36:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so basically (none / 0)

well my favorite part of your post was circular reasoning about existence of hell and snowballs who visit it. :)


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:58:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain has the same chances (none / 0)

Then what's the point of this entire "electability" thread?


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 01:45:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain has the same chances (none / 0)

It helps us while away idle time that we should be spending gardening, running, working, taking care of children etc.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:37:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why would he lose (none / 0)

You do realize that Obama recieved 1.5 million votes to Hillary's 2million? Are you saying that all of Hillary's support goes towards MCCain? Are you serious?


A PROUD Hopium user!
by xodus1914 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:46:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why would he lose (none / 0)

The same can be said about LA (probably red for either unfortunately) WI, MN, MO, IA and possibly IL (unlikely, but hey if CA is in play) after all if Hillary results in AAs sitting this one out then its over.


by Socraticsilence on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:35:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it's really stark (none / 0)

The fact that you would even suggest that these states are in play says you are either ill informed or dishonest.


by upper left on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:59:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it's really stark (none / 0)

This is only one way of looking at it.

If a state is considered a "blue state", then it will likely vote Democratic whoever the nominee ends up being.

If you can get a nominee who has a better chance in the swing states and even some red states... thats not a bad thing.


by sorrodos on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:23:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it's really stark (none / 0)

So somehow you ignore the closest swing states which are Iowa and Wisconsin (and New Mexico which was a virtaul tie) where Obama not only beat Hillary but is outpolling her relative to McCain.

You also fail to mention Obama's victory in Missouri and Colorado--two more red-leaning swing states that Obama would perform well in.

I am not discounting your argument but rather suggesting that to strengthen your argument you must at least acknowledge where the differences aren't stark or lean the other way. Also, the polls showing Hilalry getting beat by McCain in Oregon and Washington should be greater cause for pause than any delusions that Obama can't carry CA or NY.


by keithdarlingbrekhus on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:54:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Jerome, you contiue to argue (2.00 / 3)

That victory in the Dem primary somehow equates victory in the general. There are several problems with this.

1) Obama v Clinton votes are not mutually exclusive.

2) You are assuming that the Dems who voted for the losing candidate will vote Republican. When, in all liklihood at least 90%+ will continue to vote for the Dems, who have SWAMPED the Republicans in turnout in most states.

3) The Dems second place contender got more votes than he leading Republican in many states.

4) Clinton voters are not "voting against Obama," nor are Obama voters "voting against Clinton." They are all voting for change, good judgement, and experience we think suits them to be President (I prefer Obama's experience, personally.) That benefits the Dems.

5) I think you are still viewing this through a 50%+1 lens (which doesn't seem like you), and the Dems have a real chance to put us beyond that this election. Colorado, Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina (IMO) and several other states will be in play that were not in 2000 or 2004.


by faithfull on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:23:20 AM EST

Re: Jerome, you contiue to argue (none / 0)

Logic does not enter into this discussion.


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:07:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome, you contiue to argue (none / 0)

Amen.

Blue states that went to Hillary in the primary will still likely be blue if Obama ends up being the nominee.


by sorrodos on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:24:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest & states (none / 0)

The superdelegates can vote however they choose. Them's the rules. Will they vote for the candidate who's losing the pledged delegate race? No. But they  legitimately could. Them's the rules, and only Republicans try to change the rules in mid-game.

Florida and Michigan delegate should not be counted without a re-vote. Them's the rules, and only Republicans try to change the rules in mid-game.

The only way Clinton can win this, barring an Obama collapse, is by convincing those superdelegates who don't support her strongly enough to already have come out for her, to vote against the pledged delegate majority. That's beyond unlikely.

I'm not sure how you might have 'no clue' about this. I'm have no certainty, but I've definitely got a clue. Math 101.


by BingoL on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:25:20 AM EST

Re: Dem contest & states (none / 0)

Not only that, but support her in sufficient margin to overcome whatever deficit she has at that time.  A lot of people around here seem to forget that she will need however many superdelegates are required to offset Obama's lead, plus 51% of the remaining superdelegates.  That's quite a large number.


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:11:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest & states (none / 0)

Question.  While it would be difficult for Hillary to overtake Obama in pledged delegates, it's not impossible that she could end up with more votes cast for her than Obama, even without Florida and Michigan.  So, there could be a situation where Clinton leads the "popular vote" and Obama leads the pledged delegate total.  At that point, doesn't the argument that superdelegates should vote for Obama to follow the will of the party fall away?  

Of course, this all assume that superdelegates should only be there to mirror elections results and not be allowed to vote for whom they think is the best candidate (which is what they are supposed to do under the rules).


by drpd02 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:26:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest & states (none / 0)

Possible, but still unlikely.

First, how do caucuses get counted in these "popular" vote totals?  Is it fair to completely exclude them?

Second, it's still unlikely that the popular vote and delegate math will be substantially different.  I don't know what the analysis looks like after last night (where the delegate math helped Obama more than it helped Clinton), but before then, I think the delegate math was, in actuality, helping Clinton more in the overall totals.

If that happens, though, the chances of a joint ticket go up exponentially, I would say, with the delegate leader getting the President nod and the VP going to the popular vote leader (although, I suppose I could see this going either way as well).


by leshrac55 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 02:19:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

611 pledged delegates up for grabs (2.00 / 1)

in the remaining states.

That's it, 611.

Obama will still lead Clinton by about 150 pledged delegates after everything is sorted out in Texas.

To catch up to Obama in pledged delegates, Clinton needs to pick up 380 of those 611. That's 62% of the remaining delegates. Electorally (due to apportionment) that means blowouts of 65% C to 35% O in EACH AND EVERY REMAINING CONTEST

The math won last night. The math favored Obama going into last night. The math favors Obama even more this morning than it did before a single vote was counted yesterday.


Bill Foster would agree, Barack Obama has coat tails.
by Walt Starr on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:26:27 AM EST

if it helps you get through the day... (none / 0)


by diplomatic on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:56:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Enjoy your news cycle (none / 0)

Expect fund raising numbers for February to be released by Obama's campaign tomorrow.

Then watch for super delegate announcements.

By this time next week, there will be 566 pledged delegates left. Obama will have a slight lead in super delegates and a lead of about 160 in pledged delegates. That will mean Clinton will require about 68% of all reamining delegates, pledged and unpledged (super to the unschooled), in order to catch up.


Bill Foster would agree, Barack Obama has coat tails.
by Walt Starr on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:04:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoy your news cycle (none / 0)

I hope you are right.


by upper left on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:09:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoy your news cycle (2.00 / 0)

Obama committed a major blunder by holding back the February fundraising numbers.  He got slaughtered yesterday, and there is literally no number he could release at this point that would alter the news cycle in his favor.  If anything, the reaction will be "wow, he raised all that money and still didn't win"?

He would have done far better to put out that fundraising number in advance of the elections, but for some reason his campaign figured all those negative stories weren't going to leave a mark.  Bad call.

I also wouldn't get too hyped about those superdelegates.  I know it's received wisdom that Obama has 50 of them in his back pocket, ready to endorse any time he asks them to, but in the real world it's going to be hard to find people who didn't want to jump on the bandwagon in February, yet are eager to endorse Obama after yesterday's results.  We're going to hold you guys to that 50 number that you hyped so heavily.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:11:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoy your news cycle (none / 0)

Actually, it was a BRILLIANT move.

Run the numbers. He ahd about 700,000 individual donations in February. For that to equate to $50,000,000, the average donation had to be < $72. At ~$86 as an average donation, that's more than $60,000,000. At ~$100 (less than the $109 figure floated by Obama in the debate), he tops $70,000,000.

Today, the news cycle belongs to Clinton. Tomorrow, Obama takes it back by announcing his numbers.

Next stop, Wyoming and Mississippi.

Then comes the moment of truth for Hillary when actual financials are released. After deducting the money she was in a hole,she raised about $30,000,000. The question is, how much of that is GE money only?

The math favored Obama going into yesterday. IT faovrs him even more today.


Bill Foster would agree, Barack Obama has coat tails.
by Walt Starr on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:43:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoy your news cycle (none / 0)

I explained why releasing the fundraising numbers will not reclaim the momentum at this point.  You didn't do anything to explain why it will.  I'm content to wait and see who is right about this.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:54:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoy your news cycle (none / 0)

Momentum is all about the news cycle. Hillary had the momentum going into Tuesday because she controlled the news cycle.

That all changes when the fund raising numbers come out.


Bill Foster would agree, Barack Obama has coat tails.
by Walt Starr on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:18:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

reality takes the day off (none / 0)

10-15 delegate loss as slaughter.  

Releasing the fundraising number would have made a difference in Youngstown, Toledo, Corpus Christi and El Paso.

Right.

Enjoy the continued slow bleed of your shrinking superdelegate lead in the next two weeks.  Let's see how your negative, anti-Obama strategy sits with superdelegates.  


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:51:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: reality takes the day off (none / 0)

Just be sure to let me know when those 50 superdelegates will be announcing.  I'll be refreshing my browser.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:54:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

ok, lets recap again (none / 0)

I am gonna use kos's numbers

Vermont (15 delegates)

Obama 9
Clinton 6

Rhode Island (21 delegates)

Clinton 12
Obama 8

Texas

Primary (126 delegates, Link)

Clinton 64
Obama 62

Caucuses (67 delegates; tentative results based on a straight percentage from 34% reporting)

Obama ~37
Clinton ~30

Total (Nowhere near final)

Obama ~99
Clinton ~94

Ohio (141 delegates, punching in results with 97% reporting here)

Clinton 73
Obama 68

So so far, pending the TX caucuses results the night brought Clinton 185 and Obama 184 pledged delegates.

I would say above indicates a scratch not slaughter.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:14:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ok, lets recap again (none / 0)

Not everything is measured by delegate count in the real world.  People pay attention to things like the fact that Obama lost by 300,000 votes and lost by double digits in Ohio.  Please don't fall victim to the practice of believing your own spin.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:05:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it is nto spin (none / 0)

to point out the delegate count.

From the pledged delegate standpoint its a Pyrrhic victory for clinton.

She spent her biggest, most friendly states and she got a rather small return.

However you are right that not everything is measured by delegate count. It remains to be seen if she can use this to help her win more.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:22:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

if it helps you get through the day (none / 0)

yep, nothing to worry about for Obama.  He has this all locked up then.  Sleep easy my friend.


by diplomatic on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:56:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 611 pledged delegates up for grabs (none / 0)

You've conveniently left out Florida and Michigan. And somehow, some way, they will be heard. If Hillary continues the good press and momentum, she'll win re-votes by even larger margins than originally.


by ColoradoGuy on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:40:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 611 pledged delegates up for grabs (none / 0)

That would be impossible in Michigan's case, since Obama's total was 0.  Both states would be very close, just like all the other states where Clinton has lead by large margins weeks before their primaries.


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:51:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 611 pledged delegates up for grabs (none / 0)

...such as California, Ohio, and Massachusetts?  "Very close"?

The results from a Michigan primary would most likely look a lot like Ohio.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:07:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 611 pledged delegates up for grabs (none / 0)

Or WI and MN, but even if we go by your highly unsupportable numbers, that's still what a 40% improvement over the numbers you people give him now?


by Socraticsilence on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:40:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 611 pledged delegates up for grabs (none / 0)

I don't understand your argument that Michigan would look like WI or MN, nor do I understand what numbers of mine you find "highly unsupportable."


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:52:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 611 pledged delegates up for grabs (none / 0)

Based on what?  Your gut feeling?


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 01:43:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 611 pledged delegates up for grabs (none / 0)

Based on 27 years as a Michigander.  The demographics, the economy, and the local political considerations are all very similar to Ohio.  What do you feel the substantial differences are?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 02:29:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 611 pledged delegates up for grabs (none / 0)

You bots live in an alternate universe.  Obama cannot carry the states we need this fall.  Obama just doesn't have enough experience and no fancy speech or screaming kids changes that fact.  He doesn't even do the job he has now.  No Obama cannot win the general election.  Ohio proves it, get a grip.  Ohio is the ball weather state, forget delegates in red states, they don't even count.


democrat voter
by democrat voter on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:12:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 611 pledged delegates up for grabs (none / 0)

I take it you didn't care about TX, then and think FL is kind of pointless, also why is red Ohio a counted state then?


by Socraticsilence on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:41:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest &amp; states (none / 0)

It's time for Clinton and Obama to bury the hatchet and join forces.  A Clinton/Obama ticket would be unstoppable.  (Yes, I put Obama in the Veep slot, and I'm an Obama supporter.  As long as the Republicans get pushed out of the White House, it's all good.)


by KTinOhio on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:26:47 AM EST

Re: Dem contest &amp;amp; states (none / 0)

Why would he accept the VP slot when he's still leading?


by HSTruman on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:39:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest &amp;amp; states (none / 0)

DNA analysis confirms that the only bloody fingerprints on the ax belong to Hillary Clinton.

Why should she be rewarded for negative campaigning, by being given the top spot, when she is behind, and when she runs less well against McCain?


by upper left on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:56:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest &amp;amp;amp; states (none / 0)

Re: negative campaigning. Thank God she's finally seeing what he's made of. And I gotta say, the early returns are not good. You hear what he said on TV this morning? He basically said IN SO MANY WORDS, that he doesn't have any, ANY!, national security experience. McCain's closing ad was just made for him, by none other than Barack Obama.

What an amateur. He's an extraordinarily talented amateur and is still likely to win this thing, and appears to be a quick learner. What Hillary is teaching him right now might just save him in the Fall.


by ColoradoGuy on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:38:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We need to be smart (none / 0)

The willingness of so many HRC supporters to embrace the very bullshit, slime tactics that they have been complaining about the Repugs using for years is disgusting.  

Can't you folks see that in the long run embracing the politics of fear and smear is a loosing proposition for Dems?  We are playing on the Repugs home field.  These tactics enable and endorse the VRWC, and, in the long run, they depress turn-out and cost Dems the support of millions.

It isn't about being soft, it is about being smart.


by upper left on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:30:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest &amp; states (none / 0)

Once again Jerome, a brilliant bit of analysis. Is there a link to get this delegate counter? Go Hillary!


by Robert Spurrier on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:31:48 AM EST

Re: Dem contest &amp; states (2.00 / 0)

Oregon is an Obama landslide. Other than that true.

Pennsylvania is a lock for Clinton.


by optimist on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:37:17 AM EST

My take... (2.00 / 0)

Obama wins Wyoming, Mississippi, Indiana, North Carolina, Oregon, Montana, South Dakota, wins the Michigan re-vote, ties in Pennsylvania(51-49 or thereabouts), and does better than expected in Puerto Rico and the Florida re-vote(47%).
Clinton wins Kentucky, West Virginia, Puerto Rico and Florida, and argues she won Pennsylvania.

Obama still ahead in popular vote by around 500,000 votes, and pledged delegates by around 100+, maybe even 200.  The superdelegate tally will be around 350-300 in Obama's favor, with about 200 up for grabs at the convention.

Assuming there will be around 4414 total delegates with Michigan and Florida re-included, and that about 4200 are spoken for by mid-June, that would give Obama about 2175 delegates, and Clinton 2025.  I think that's concession speech territory for her.


by megaplayboy on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:42:16 AM EST

I think Pennsylvania margin would be wider (none / 0)

Governor Rendell will be helping her out and the state is a lot like Ohio.  Part of it is also her family's home town.  Everything outside Philadelphia will go heavily for Clinton, including Pittsburgh I predict.


by diplomatic on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:59:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think Pennsylvania margin would be wider (none / 0)

6 weeks is a very long time to campaign in a state, that's all I'm going to say about that.


by megaplayboy on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:00:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oregon (none / 0)

Oregon a toss-up? Your dreaming Jerome.

As a life long Oregon Democrat, and someone who has done precinct level targeting for several large campaigns, this state has to be seen as leaning strongly for Obama.

We are not an industrial state with a high percentage of blue-collar workers.  Oregon's largest industries are high tech and trade.  Portland is a mecca for young creatives.  Most of the rural areas are highly Republican and have few Democrats.  Democratic votes are heavily concentrated in the Willamette valley around university towns Eugene and Corvallis in the south and around Portland in the north.  I live in a relatively conservative (by Portland standards) older suburb with a pretty high concentration of working class voters.  In my daily conversations with hundreds of people I find very strong support for Obama.

Here is a Feb 26 poll showing Obama runs +8 against McCain while Clinton runs -8.

http://www.oregoncatalyst.com/index.php? /archives/1226-Oregon-Poll-Barack-tops-M cCain.html

Rasmussen has Obama +9 against McCain and HRC - 3.  

I saw one head to head with Obama vs. Clinton about a month ago and Obama was ahead by about 10%.  If he is able to blow away Clinton leads of over 10% in other states, I suspect he will pull away here.  

There are relatively few institutional resources that Clinton can utilize here.  SEIU is by far the strongest union.  She has the support of our Governor, but I don't think that matters much.  Obama already has a huge self-directed grass roots organization in place with thousands of volunteers.

Unless the national narrative changes significantly, Obama will likely win Oregon by 15-20%.


by upper left on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:43:49 AM EST

It really is going to be all about the (2.00 / 1)

superdelegates. Obama supporters can yell all they want about "whoever has the most pledged delegates," and hang on to that like a liferaft. But the reality is the superdelegates can vote their conscience, their heart, and their intellect. Anyone winning all the big states, and Ohio in a landslide, is not going to be dismissed simply because of pledged delegates. This system has been in place since 1972 and it isn't going to change suddenly because someone wishes it to be so. Whichever candidate makes the best case to the superdelegates for his or her nomination will be our nominee.


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:46:19 AM EST

Re: It really is going to be all about the (none / 0)

They certainly can do whatever they want, but ignoring who wins the pledged delegate battle and the popular vote strikes me as insane.  Those are the most small 'd' democratic metrics.  


by HSTruman on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:49:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I Agree. (none / 0)

I actually agree with the Clinton camp's idea of who and what the superdelegates are, even as an Obama supporter.  However, I don't believe for a moment though that they actually believe the kind of reasoning her campaign is trying to push for why they should vote for her.  

Her campaign's dismissal of the importance and the role of Democrats in 'red' states in this contest is probably enough to ensure her loss of most of those superdelegates (the ones that didn't endorse Obama before her dismissals of them and their states that is).  


by Brillobreaks on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:02:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Agree. (none / 0)

Obama can't carry those states.  Its simple really.  HE CAN'T CARRY THOSE STATES.


democrat voter
by democrat voter on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:17:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Vapor argument (none / 0)

Your math and your analysis are very fuzzy.  Are you suggesting that Obama will loose CA, NY, MA, NJ? Ridiculous.

There is no reason to think that Obama would have any problem in any of these states.

Ohio, Michigan, PA, these are question marks for Obama.

On the other hand Obama will likely run better in IA, MN, VA, MT and perhaps LA.

Make honest arguments.


by upper left on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:05:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Vapor argument (none / 0)

Your argument is either disingenuous or just naive. You cite Iowa, Minnesota, Virginia, Montana, and Louisiana as places Obama might run better than HRC. And cite Ohio, Michigan, and Pennsylvania as places Hillary might do better.

Can't you see you've just made Hillary's point perfectly? Ohio is THE most important state in the country and is large. PA too. You could throw FL as well. Michigan has to be blue for anyone to have a chance. But the point is all of those states are big. On the other side you throw out five smallish states, the largest of which (MN) HAS to be blue or it's a McCain landslide (it hasn't gone red in a presidential since Reagan). Virginia is small, Montana is smaller, and Louisiana is wishful thinking. Obama could win all of these and still get crushed if he can't win OH, PA, and FL.

Thank you for making our case: We need to nominate Hillary.


by ColoradoGuy on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:33:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Vapor argument (none / 0)

VA isn't smaller, what are you talking about, and if Obama could lose MA, then Clinton will lose MN, oh and WI which we won by what 1-2% in 2004, other than that though your right.


by Socraticsilence on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:47:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Vapor argument (none / 0)

I did not say that Obama would loose MI, OH, PA. I responded honestly that there is some question about his ability to bring home some of the down-scale, older, working class dems who may have more problems with Obama's race.

On balance, I think and the polls suggest that Obama is a better risk for the Dems.  Obama would have to bring home some of the Dem base and hold on to many of the indies who now support him.  Clinton would have to hand on to the social conservative males in the Dem base and try to change the opinions of Indies with hardened negative attitudes.  Again I like Obama's chances better, because he also increases turn-out among young voters and AAs.


by upper left on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 04:24:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It really is going to be all about the (none / 0)

They have been making the case to the Superdelegates already though.  Unless there are mass defections, Clinton would have to win the remaining SD's by a 2/1 margin to get the nomination.  Possible, but Obama would definitely have an advantage.


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:08:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It really is going to be all about the (none / 0)

Nobody has been saying anything differently, though feel free to keep inventing arguments.


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:18:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest &amp; states (none / 0)

An intersting point, which I don't hear anyone talk about, is that Obama would have a very good chance of winning Michigan if there is a re-vote.  Similarly, I doubt HRC would win Florida by the same margin she won the beauty contest that already occurred.  So even if there is a re-vote, those states are unlikely to give her the kind of margin she would need to overtake him in terms of delegates.  

Stated otherwise, her only viable path to the nomination is through convincing the supers to pick her despite having fewer pledged delegates.  That could happen, but I think it's a tough sell.


by HSTruman on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:47:51 AM EST

Re: Dem contest &amp;amp; states (none / 0)

Based upon my 27 years as a Michigander, I believe Michigan looks way too much like Ohio for Obama to have a chance there.  Obama might close the gap by a couple points because there are marginally more African-Americans, but I can't think of any reasons why Michigan would be radically different.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:02:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest &amp;amp;amp; states (none / 0)

40% of the Democrats voting there got up that day, went to the polls, and voted for an empty check box over Hillary.  I think Obama might be able to pull a few more points after campaigning there.


by Brillobreaks on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:07:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest &amp;amp;amp;amp; states (2.00 / 1)

Obama had the only significant GOTV operation in Michigan, with ads on black radio and surrogates encouraging Obama supporters to vote uncommitted.  Turnout in Wayne County, Obama's stronghold, was extremely strong.  You're also neglecting the fact that many of the "uncommitted" voters supported Edwards and not Obama.

Do I think Obama will do better than the 35% of voters who told exit pollsters that they would have chosen Obama if all the candidates were on the ballot?  Absolutely.  But I think you'll find that Clinton had a lot of supporters who didn't show up for the election that didn't count, as well.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:19:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards would have won (none / 0)

a lot more than 15% in MI -- his working class platform was perfect for MI. I think most of his voters will go to Clinton, for the same reason.


I want my UHC!
by votermom on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:01:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest &amp;amp; states (none / 0)

Okay. This is probably the first time I see how Clinton might actually get the nomination. We will see if the scenario unfolds as you say and I'm very doubtful it will. But at least you put something forth.


by marcotom on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:55:42 AM EST

The enws cycle alters tomorrow (none / 0)

Obama has yet to release his February fund raising numbers.

Then you'll have two wins in Wyoming and Mississippi that make the delegate math even worse for Clinton.


Bill Foster would agree, Barack Obama has coat tails.
by Walt Starr on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:06:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Our system is whacked (2.00 / 2)

The candidate that has won CA, MA, TX, OH, NY, the entire southwest, should have this thing locked up and be running a general campaign right now.  Not going toe to toe with the winner of Idaho and South Dakota.


by dpANDREWS on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 09:59:51 AM EST

Re: Our system is whacked (2.00 / 0)

Part of the reason why they're "red states" is precisely because of the attitude that writes them off every four years.  We need a candidate who won't just campaign in the "purple" states, but will fight for votes(and have the resources to do so) in all 50 states.  That's how you get a popular vote mandate, and it's how you get a working majority in Congress, too.


by megaplayboy on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:03:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our system is whacked (none / 0)

There are no red states in a Democratic Primary.  I can guarantee you a Democrat wins all 50 states everytime in a Democratic primary.

Besides TX, AZ, OH, FL ... those have been "red" states in the general.


by dpANDREWS on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:00:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our system is whacked (none / 0)

Why?


by Brillobreaks on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:04:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our system is whacked (none / 0)

Ah so NM and AZ should count but ID and SD shouldn't?  Why exactly does Texas count again?

What's trivial about winning WI, MN, IL, CT, ME, NH, VT, DC, MD, MO, and IA, all of which are Democratic strongholds or swing states.

Why couldn't Clinton close the deal in any of those states if she is so inevitable?


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:13:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

New hamsphire (none / 0)

she won there -


by NYMARJ on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:35:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New hamsphire (none / 0)

You're right.  I have no idea why I thought she lost there, especially because it was so crucial.  I was thinking of Vermont I guess.


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:52:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

yes, yes, we already heard (none / 0)

that only big states matter.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:19:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our system is whacked (none / 0)

You're right.  We should propose that the 2012 nomination only consists of those primaries.  It would save everyone a lot of time and money.  Even though TX is a "red state" that we'll never win, much like Idaho and South Dakota.


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:20:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our system is whacked (none / 0)

Colorado is in the Southwest, and Obama won big here.

Point taken, though.


by ColoradoGuy on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:26:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our system is whacked (none / 0)

What about the Canidate who has won Virtually the entire midwest? (OH and PA are the only 2 midwest states Obama hasn't carried), or are we going with a Coastal strategy (the thought that Clinton carries the southwest- is laughable, especially when its two biggest prizes: TX and AZ are McCain locks).


by Socraticsilence on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:51:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest &amp; states (none / 0)

I know one thing: barring catastrophe of Gary Hart proportions, Obama will end up with more pledged delegates.  

I know one other thing: if the supers reverse the leader of the pledged delegates, all hell will break lose, especially among young voters and African American voters, but among many others as well.

I know just one other thing: if the tenor of this campaign continues to be as negative as the last three days, the Dems will do harm to themselves in the general.


by maconblue on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:02:35 AM EST

Re: Dem contest &amp;amp; states (none / 0)

The level of negative campaigning is very low. I certainly wish Kerry had been hit with the known swiftboat charges in the primaries.
One thing everyone has to start thinking about is that Hillary could very well have the popular vote lead. Remember PA is a closed primary with a bit bigger population than Ohio.
by Judeling on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:56:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest &amp;amp;amp; states (none / 0)

If she wins the total popular vote, either excluding MI and FL or including new primaries in MI and FL, then she can legitimately challenge Obama's delegate lead.  Then anything can happen.  My sense is that it'd be almost as tough for her to overcome the popular vote gap as the delegate gap (remember: we've got North Carolina, Mississippi, etc. coming up).

Obviously, counting MI and FL when the candidates agreed not to campaign there, and when Obama's name wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan, seems utterly sleazy to me.  I wouldn't put it past the Clintons, though.


by maconblue on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:41:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest &amp;amp; states (none / 0)

Iowa, Missouri, most of New England, the contested part of the upper midwest, the Potomac states.  Which of these are not important in the general?


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:14:51 AM EST

New England (none / 0)

Take out New Hamsphire , Mass, and Rhode Island from Obama, please in the most of New England


by NYMARJ on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:39:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest &amp;amp;amp; states (none / 0)

Missouri is a perfect example of what is wrong with Obama's argument re swing states. Yes he squeaked out a victory. But he did it in EXACTLY the wrong way if you're going to win the state in the general. He only won two counties: Kansas City and St. Louis. He lost EVERYTHING else, including the suburbs of those two cities. He only won because so many of the Dems are concentrated in those two cities. In the general, the population is far more scattered, and experience shows that if you can't win the suburbs and at least stay competitive in rural areas, you get beat. Hillary is the only one that can conceivably win Missouri in November (barring an Obama landslide due to McCain melt-down, which is always possible).


by ColoradoGuy on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:23:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest &amp;amp;amp;amp; states (none / 0)

"Hillary is the only one that can conceivably win Missouri in November (barring an Obama landslide due to McCain melt-down, which is always possible)."

Only if you believe that 90% or so of her votes would never vote for Obama.  I think the Democrat die hards will come home for whoever has the D and will vote for him while he'll keep the crossover votes.


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:51:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest &amp;amp;amp;amp; states (none / 0)

First of all this is factually incorrect. He carried St Louis City, St Louis County, Jackson County (KC), Cole County, Boone County and Nodaway County. Ultimately by running up big margins in these areas a Democrat could conceivably win an election because the populations are large enough to offset losses in the remaining 100 or so counties and many Democrats have won here by carrying lopsided margins in the cities and losing most of the rest of the state by modest margins.


by keithdarlingbrekhus on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:58:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest &amp;amp;amp;amp; states (none / 0)

He won St Louis County (THE SUBURBS) with over 60% of the primary vote. St LOuis County is suburban St Louis and has more suburban voters tahn teh rest of the state put together. Obama carries the cities and suburbs in Missouri and only lost the rural areas.


by keithdarlingbrekhus on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 01:00:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem contest &amp;amp; states (none / 0)

This makes perfect sense actually.


I CAN HAZ BAHROCK DONASCHON?
by kasjogren on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:28:41 AM EST

Re: Dem contest (2.00 / 1)

Obama may end up with more pledged delegates, but he may well not have enough of them to win the nomination.

The supers job is not to rubber stamp or 'reverse' the pledged delegates. They exist basically as a body of 'elders', for lack of a better word, in order to provide leadership in choosing a nominee to offset the flaws of the state-by-state rules and methods. Or, at other times, when they feel the primary/caucus system has not produced the best candidate.

Gerladine Ferraro wrote an op-ed about it that you may have seen. She was part of the group that devised what was perceived to be a 'fix' to our whacked system.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/opinio n/25ferraro.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&am p;oref=slogin

I find it funny that practically everyone, including pro-Clinton bloggers, have bought the Obama campaign's spin on superdelegates. They're the ones who have brought up and pushed this notion that the supers are there to rubber stamp the pledged delegates. That's simply not true. They are there to guide the nominating process, and if they find it in the party's best interests, to overrule the pledges.

I'm not saying they will, necessarily, but they will be looking at the overall popular vote, they will likely look at bellweather states, and they will certainly look at winnability as they judge it for each candidate.

Much backroom politicking will doubtless ensue if they are lining up to tip the scales away from the pledged delegate leader. There will be a feverish push for a politically viable result all the way around, alienating the fewest voters at worst. This is why, barring egos, a Clinton/Obama or Obama/Clinton ticket seems politically possible.

But there's a long way to go. And I do not rule out a Gary Hart catastrophe or series of gaffes by either side. The Clinton team has shown how bad it can be, and the Obama team is having real difficulties dealing with the harsh realities of American politics. In including more negativity in his message and tactics, he will doubtless undermine, to some extent, the message that he isn't just another politician and that he somehow can operate outside the actual political environment. Premises I've always found pretty unbelievable, but which have clearly resonated with a lot of people. I still find that neither the candidate, nor the process as his campaign presents it, is actually what he/it is.


by dark1p on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:32:47 AM EST

Re: Dem contest (none / 0)

The funny thing is that those superdelegates who have announced so far have looked at none of those factors.  There has been absolutely no indication that they will behave as the philosopher-kings you wish them to be.  Moreover, they would have to take into account any negative effects that their decision would have on the electorate