Time to Regroup

A candidate supporter diary for MyDD

The recent psychological victory of Senator Clinton's campaign in the March 4th primaries forces a strategic and tactical review of the race for the Democratic presidential nomination on the part of Senator Obama, his campaign staff and his supporters.  While the underlying delegate advantage has not shifted significantly it would be foolish to assume that the context of the campaign has not undergone a fundamental change which Obama's campaign can only ignore at their peril.


War is merely a continuation of politics.

Carl von Clausewitz - Vom Krieg 1873

To date Obama's campaign has enjoyed unexpected success in gaining the advantage in this contest; novel applications of organisation, fundraising, media management and message have been adroitly synthesised to provide significant victories and a winning position for Senator Obama.  Like the surprising military successes of fluid combined arms operations against static defences or ju jitsu against a conventional fighter the campaign's early successes deftly outmanoeuvred the Clinton campaign and neutralised what had been widely perceived as their insurmountable advantages.  Round one to Obama.

But like all successful advances there comes a time when resistance stiffens and fluid tactics no longer prevail.  Obama's spectacular success has multiplied his enemies and forced him to divert his substantial resources to protect his flanks:


TOLEDO -- So this is what being a front-runner deep in primary season looks like: taking flak on three sides.

Sen. Barack Obama found himself today facing insinuations from Republicans that he lacks patriotism, charges from Hillary Clinton that he is a hypocrite on campaign ethics, and put-downs from Ralph Nader, who in announcing his third-party candidacy this morning dismissed Obama as well-intentioned but in hock to the corporate agenda.

So far, at least, Obama is showing that he can stand his ground and return fire on all fronts.

Alec MacGillis - Newly Engaged in a Three-Front War The Trail, Washington Post 24 Feb 08

In the days leading up to the March 4th primaries Obama's advance came within range of the heavy artillery of her overtly negative attacks, the 'kitchen sink' barrage, and was interdicted by her successful manipulation of the media's fragile, and fickle, sense of their own integrity.  In spite of throwing everything into this critical battle, a sensible gamble on Obama's part, the Clinton campaign had cut their losses and reorganised for a last stand in a traditional, positional defence which successfully blunted what might otherwise have been a knock-out blow with limited collateral damage.  Round two to Hillary.  The Obama campaign has relinquished their momentum but not their resources and it is time for a determined, prepared attack on Hillary's position.

The late, great military tactician Sir Basil Liddel-Hart famously said 'Never check momentum, never resume mere pushing.'  It is time to dismount and winkle the defenders out of their field fortifications by frontal assault, irrespective of casualties on either side.  The ground Hillary has chosen is 'experience' and suitability to be Commander-in-Chief of the United States.  Let's take a look at this well known battlefield and weigh the prospects for a successful offensive against a tenacious but familiar adversary on this terrain.

What 'Experience' is That Again?
Hillary claims 'thirty-five years of experience' implying a long and distinguished career of public service.  Yet we know this career, from the work she did as a Congressional counsel during the Watergate hearings through her partnership at the Rose Law Firm has had, excluding the eleven years as First Lady of Arkansas, it's share of controversy and included much private sector work, including her service on the board of Wal-Mart.  And are her eight years as First Lady of the United States really credible as the kind of executive experience which suits a candidate for the presidency?  What was her security clearance during her husband's presidency?  What national security issues was she even authorised to know about?


"One of the things, you know, I hope people start asking is what exactly is this foreign experience that she's claiming," Obama said on his campaign plane before flying home to Chicago.

"She talks about visiting 80 countries," he said. "It's not clear, you know, was she negotiating treaties or agreements or was she handling crisis during this period of time. My sense is the answer is no. I have not seen any evidence that she is better equipped to handle a crisis."

Obama said the media has given Clinton the benefit of the doubt that she has more experience than him.

John McCormick - Barack Obama takes tougher tone today The Swamp, The Tribune 5 Mar 08

It seems entirely appropriate to put the burden on the Clinton campaign to demonstrate what this 'experience' comprises.  If her experience comes down to the years she has served as junior senator from New York, which is indisputable, she can be judged fairly on her public record and national security credentials.

Who is 'Vetted?'
Senator Clinton has constantly made the claim that she is thoroughly 'vetted,' yet what she calls 'vetted' really means that she has survived numerous controversial investigations, whatever their motivation or origin.  There is no suggestion that Senator Obama should engage in the kind of insinuation or guilt by association which Hillary's campaign has descended into recently.  However her standards of disclosure relating to relevant and current activities warrant the attention of the media and the electorate, for example:


"She's made the argument that she's thoroughly vetted, in contrast to me," Mr. Obama said as he flew back to Chicago from Texas Wednesday. "I think it's important to examine that argument, because if the suggestion is somehow that, on issues of ethics or disclosure or transparency, that she's going to have a better record than I have and will be better able to withstand Republican attacks, I think that's an issue that should be tested."

Michael Luo - Obama Moves to Sharpen His Critique of Clinton NYT 5 Mar 08

The release of documents relating to the Clinton White House would also seem relevant to this discussion, as well as, tangentially but no less relevantly given her recent personal finance of her campaign, the issues of her husband's financial dealings such as the Kazakhstan energy negotiations he denies participating in and the contributions to the Clinton library, to name a few.  

Hillary is Fighting Obama and the System
To secure a credible path to the nomination Hillary must at some point overturn the process as it now stands.  She must erode Obama's lead by either insuring the FA and MI delegations are seated at the convention, poaching pledged delegates or securing the endorsement of the lion's share of superdelegates.  In any or all of these endeavours she must expend time and resources to overturn the status quo.  The Obama campaign can stand pat and let the burden of energy and friction fall on her campaign:


"I don't think it's for our campaign or her campaign - we're in a heated contest here - to have to be the facilitators here," Plouffe said. "This is between the DNC and those state parties."

Nedra Pickler - Do-Over in Michigan and Florida? AP 5 Mar 08

Furthermore, any attempt by Hillary's campaign to manoeuvre for position may likely meet resistance by the party itself, whether the DNC, superdelegates or even her own campaign insiders who have a higher sense of duty to the party than her campaign has evidenced recently.  All Obama needs to do is keep tabs on this potentially acrimonious wrangle, keep to the high ground of the party's best interests and point out egregious activities to the media and the public if and when they arise.

The Threat of a Superdelegate End Run
Since Hillary's campaign has clearly escalated this conflict Obama's is entitled to fight back, though within the Geneva Convention of War.  At some point it is plausible, assuming this is a protracted and effective campaign, and given the borderline tactics of the Hillary campaign and their propensity, recently demonstrated, to compare Senator Obama unfavourably to the Republican nominee, that the party would feel the need to bring this phase of the campaign to an abrupt conclusion.  


Reflecting on ... the fickleness of superdelegates, Cleaver [Rep. Emanuel Cleaver II] said, "If another country elected leaders the way we do, we'd ask them to bring in the U.N. monitors."

Josephine Hearn and Amie Parnes and Josh Kraushaar - Superdelegates play hardball Politico 5 Mar 08

Although this is unlikely before the Pennsylvania primary it is entirely reasonable to assume that some time before the convention the party steps in through the mechanism of the uncommitted superdelgates or a major series of endorsements to choose a nominee.  Under the circumstances it is unlikely that Hillary would be that choice and this is a circumstance which will constrain her campaign's behaviour and keep them looking over their shoulders as the Democratic race drags on and McCain solidifies his message, organisation and fundraising.

Hillary admires herself as a 'fighter' and considers this kind of campaigning a virtue, let's show her what the Obama campaign is capable of by the same criteria.  Until now Obama's campaign has sought to stay above the fray and this clearly has put him at a disadvantage in the new operational environment of the contest for the nomination.  No one can blame him for rolling up his sleeves and getting stuck into her, especially if he does so with clarity of purpose and stays within the apparently liberal guidelines for fair and legitimate 'contrast,' as it is euphemised these days.  And it would surely put to rest the disingenuous notion of a unity ticket.  Fix bayonets.



Display:


Right on! (none / 0)

Great essay.  Hillary survived March 4, but she is in a very wounded position right now.  The only thing she has going is media narrative - "comeback," etc. But most of that is ephemeral. She barely scored a delegate advantage from three of the most demographically pro-Hillary states in the country. Her math just doesn't work. But he can't just sit still and point that out. He needs to challenge her on her rhetoric. Put her on the defensive again. Don't hesitate to ask questions in the media about ethics issues - her meandering defenses serve to remind the public of what they find objectionable about her in the first place. But if you don't raise questions about Boratgate, the source of her $5 million, tax returns, etc. then you let her control the battlefield.  


by elrod on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:06:57 PM EST

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Despite the thinly-veiled mantle of momentum being worn by the Clinton campaign, there is little room to doubt that this nomination is on its way to being wrapped up.  I hate sounding arrogant, but the numbers are cold, harsh, and factual.

Some of the reasons I state this are in my latest diary, which can be found here; http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/3/5/20392 3/2712

There was only one prediction which had Texas called as a 51-47 split to Hillary, and that prediction was made over a month ago in the form of a spreadsheet put together by the Obama campaign.  In Ohio and Rhode Island, Hillary enjoyed a bump of 3 points relative to the prediction made in this spreadsheet.  That's the only positive that can be taken away by Hillary's supporters when reading the numbers listed in the diary.  While it could be argued that the bump is a positive trend, which could in fact continue, there is one problem;  Ohio and Rhode Island are states that were practically made for Hillary to run in, coupled with the fact that Obama had incredibly-negative press before Junior-Super-Tuesday, and that both RI and OH experienced bad weather last night which weakens turnout for Barack.


"Behold, I send you out as sheep amidst the wolves! Therefore, be as wise as a serpent, And as harmless as a dove."
by Setrak on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:10:04 PM EST

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Agreed.  Well said, Setrak.


jon
by Jon Pincus on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:14:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It is better for Obama to be vetted now than in GE (none / 0)

It is a practice for the vicious attacks from GOP that is coming.

It is better now for Obama to practice giving a great answer on Rezko that will quiet all further talks on the matter.  

Obama will get worse things in the GE from the vicious GOP attack machine so better practicing how to answer the questions now and not get riled up later.


by jasmine on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:11:15 PM EST

Re: It is better for Obama to be vetted now than i (none / 0)

The right wingers aren't talking about Rezko, only the Hillary campaign is... there is so little "there" there, that they'd rather concentrate on false muslim smears...


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:31:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It is better for Obama to be vetted now than i (none / 0)

Rezko is a Syrian--GOP will all tie it up.


by jasmine on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 03:02:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama: Can You Win? (2.00 / 1)

"Under the circumstances it is unlikely that Hillary would be that choice and this is a circumstance which will constrain her campaign's behaviour and keep them looking over their shoulders as the Democratic race drags on and McCain solidifies his message, organisation and fundraising."

1. You use the "our" ending for behavior which leads me to believe you are not native born. Just sayin'.
2. This is a spurious assertion. Obama lost last night. He shouldn't bother looking over his shoulder because he's going to spend so much time mired in introspection and second-guessing. Try winning big states, buddy.
3. Superdelegates by rule alone can vote for whomever they want.
4. Hillary is leading in popular vote when MI & FL are included as-is.
5. There is no high ground in politics. Sorry.
6. The only thing I agree with you on is the fact that a Clinton/Obama ticket would result in Michelle, Bill, Barack and Hillary being in the Oval Office and expected to solve all the nation's problems in 100 days. Someone would get cut.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:14:17 PM EST

Re: Obama: Can You Win? (2.00 / 1)

So you're a 'nativist' Democrat?  I was born in Manhattan and currently live in NSW, Australia with the appropriate spell-checking.  At least we agree that the unity ticket is a nonsense.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:19:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Can You Win? (none / 0)

MILiberal, I notice you troll rate a lot for petty things or for just plain disagreement.  That is not using the troll rating system correctly or wisely.


by Scotch on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:58:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not at all (none / 0)

In this case, I am troll-rating the commentator because of his appeal to nativism; it is just wrong to insinuate that someone is un-American and thus should not be listened to or something of that nature.


John McCain
by MILiberal on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:46:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not at all (none / 0)

Oh Michigan Liberal: You didn't know I was from Detroit, did you?

Meet me at Grand River and Greenfield!


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 05:22:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: Can You Win? (2.00 / 1)

There we go again counting Michigan and Florida.  Even if you're talking about popular vote (a most fair gauge) we CANNOT even begin to discuss the Michigan turnout as truly representative.  Florida, maybe, but no-way, no-how does Michigan count without a revote.


We are the change we've been waiting for.
by jlars on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:05:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Shaun you lost me when you claimed like the rest of Obama's flanks:
In the days leading up to the March 4th primaries Obama's advance has now come into range of the heavy artillery of her overtly negative attacks, the 'kitchen sink' barrage, and been interdicted by her successful manipulation of the media's fragile, and fickle, sense of their own integrity.

Why the wounded puppy act? Like Obama got attacked by that big meanie Hillary and was too classy to fight back. He's been fighting back the entire time in case you didn't notice.


by Mar154 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:15:23 PM EST

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Yeah, thanks, that was an awkward construction I have now amended the sentence accordingly.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:18:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 4)

Some things i noticed.  

I live next door to Ohio, and there isn't a lot of talk of hope or change in the industrial states.  I noticed a real lack of the fervor that Obama had following the early part of the contest.  

I think that many of the states he won like Connecticut, Washington, Wisconson,Vermont, were states that are doing fairly well.  The voters can afford to not worry about every day life and be a little more lofty in their beliefs sometimes.  In some Industrial States, we are worrying about our houses, the economy and jobs that aren't around.  Obama has never been big on issues, or pushing them to the voters.  But Clinton does do that.  That is her trademark.  

Frankly, the fervor has just worn off.  I don't know anyone personally who is caught up in that.  I know people who are trying to save for retirement, who need health care, who are worried about their jobs, etc etc.  If Obama wants to compete from now on, he needs to get a new direction and lower the change and hope talk, because it is impressing less and less.  No matter who it is, the freshness and hope of a candidate is going to wear off. This is just the natural progression of things in a long campaigning season.  Certainly his pushing of hope and change speeches are not going to impress many 9 months down the road.  That is what scares me.


by Scotch on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:29:28 PM EST

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

I think you make a good point and I noticed his speeches recently leavened with more solid policy.  I think he needs to retain the ethos of the campaign but focus to a larger degree on the specifics of the platform he proposes.  On the other hand I think it is important the vision is retained as the consistent thread through his speeches and rallies as it has been from the inception of his campaign.

I have wondered recently if Obama's success is partially founded on his appeal to 'cultural creatives' as well as more conventional Democratic constituencies.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:40:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 1)

Some people may be trying to create a new culture, and others are trying to maintain the one they have had and been mostly satisfied through their lives.  I would say the cultural creatives are probably ones with more free time on their hands so they can think and dabble in it more than others who are interested more in survival techniques.  I don't know.  That is just how it strikes me.

The other thing is that you mention Democratic Constituencies.  Obama should really try to appeal more to people who are actually democrats in that they are registered to the Democratic primaries.  In the states he wins in most are open primaries and he is winning through other than registered democratic voters.  Hillary actually appeals more to genuinely party Democrats.  Obama gets into trouble more in states that have closed primaries.  Pennsylvania is one of those.  If you aren't a registered Dem, you can't vote in a Democratic primary.  I personally don't want my party candidate to be picked by pugs or independents.  I don't understand the concept.  I think that Ohio was closed too, wasn't it?  Florida is closed, Hillary won big in Florida and in other states where Democrats elect their own nominee.


by Scotch on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:56:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 2)

Well the way things stand if we don't make significant inroads among independents we have no hope of winning the presidency.  That's just the way it is.  Consider the Democratic party as an exclusive club, or worker's hall, as you like, in the absence of the allegiance, at least temporarily, of independent voters our chances are nil.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:10:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 2)

I think a major effort in the netroots through the Democratic Party (a la Crashing the Gates) has been to take back the Party from the outside inward.

If we're all on board with that idea, than I think more independents voting in primaries -- indeed more people voting for the first time -- is a sign that the netroots is making progress by at least partially supporting a candidate that identifies with the same goals of reforming a broken political system.

This is not to say Obama is some sort of savior for netroots (since we obviously can't agree about him) but just to say that its a GOOD thing that more independents are voting.


We are the change we've been waiting for.
by jlars on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:15:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A fair point (none / 0)

I lived in Albion, Michigan last year and they are in desperate economic straits. They want specific answers from the government and they want it now.

It's a bit ironic though, because Obama got his public start working with people laid off at US Steel. He certainly knows what these folks are facing. But his messaging has been geared toward more prosperous voters. This is why the Rust Belt is so tough for him against Clinton. She's a perfect Rust Belt politician. That doesn't mean they dislike Obama. It just means Clinton speaks to them better. I can respect that.

But that doesn't mean McCain will appeal to these voters either. Ohio is in much worse economic shape now than in 2004. They're not going to get suckered into a Jesus-laden culture war. Nor are they going to vote for Mr. Patriotism when their economic straits are so dire. McCain is arrogantly ignorant on economic matters. He'll tell Ohio factory workers to go to hell. They will vote Democratic no matter what.

But most of America is not like Ohio, Michigan, Upstate New York and Western PA - or like Appalachia.  That's why Clinton has been able to do well in these states and, barring the Latino-heavy states, nowhere else. This isn't about changing momentum. It's about the peculiar demographics of Ohio. It's also about the nature of the modern Democratic party, ironically formulated by Bill Clinton himself in 1992.


by elrod on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:48:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Scotch you must live in a morgue (none / 0)

Almost everyone I know is excited about this contest  and the Obama message is getting out.  Last week was a fluke caused by Hillary demagogic machine.  Hillary has no chance of getting the nomination - she's only hurting the party.


Listening comes first
by Moonwood on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:20:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

You are right that his message of hope didn't resonate well in Ohio... That's because most Ohioans have lost all hope.

Good point!  


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (1.33 / 3)

Obama looked into the camera and said

It did not happen

That's a lie. I don't care what sort of Sun Yung Van Claustowitz Art of War stuff you are postulating (although it is very interesting and thank you for your post), what people can understand is lying.

When someone lies to you straight out, you no longer trust what they say. So I think that is the big change in the narrative, and it will result in a big change in the contests yet to come.


by MediaFreeze on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:31:48 PM EST

And the Canadians exonerated him (2.00 / 1)

Some right-wing Canadian politicians mischaracterized a conversation with Goolsbee and leaked it to CTV.  The only problem was Obama wasn't told by Goolsbee that he even had the convseration in the first place, so he looked like "I did not have sex with that woman" when he really didn't know what his staffer was up to. That was poor management and messaging, I concede. But it wasn't dishonesty.


by elrod on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:41:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And the Canadians exonerated him (2.00 / 1)

Really? Do you actually believe what you just wrote? Look into the guys eyes when he tells the whopper. People know when they see a lie. There is no way he didn't know about the meeting. Your defense simply doesn't fly IMO.


by MediaFreeze on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:55:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And the Canadians exonerated him (none / 0)

You see a lie.  I understand that.

That doesn't mean everyone else does.


by mainelib on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:04:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are right (2.00 / 2)

People DO know when they see a lie.

check this out: "CBC Exonerates Obama" http://www.cbc.ca/mrl3/8752/vsu/wmv-hi/m acdonald-obama-memo080303.wmv


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:22:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 2)

I really don't know where the kitchen sink came from.

She hasn't gone really negative .

If you are referring to the 3 am ad , that wasn't a negative ad


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:38:22 PM EST

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

And she had nothing to do with the NAFTA/Canada  thing either.  But once that became public, she would be crazy not to emphasize it.  Rezko happened when she wasn't anywhere near Illinois.  The kitchen sink mantra was made up and pushed by the media that is doing a really shitty job of staying neutral this election.


by Scotch on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:44:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

It actually might not have been so wise to go after the NAFTA thing so quickly:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/s tory/RTGAM.20080305.wharpleak0305/BNStor y/National/home

Validation is important for the long term, and this one doesn't pan out when looked into. It's a Canadian scandal, not an American one.


by Tilde on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:15:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

I'd like to also suggest the the 'kitchen sink' is a loaded term. Maybe I'm wrong, but...


by MediaFreeze on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:56:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

I believe it was a staffer of hers who first used the term.  So no, I don't think it's what you're implying.


"I, even I know the solution: love, music, wine and revolution" -The Magnetic Fields
by CranesAreFlying on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:20:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

It wasn't negative, per se... it was a republican ad, though, used in 1984 and 2004...  that's what made it so controversial.


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:37:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This testosterone-fest (2.00 / 1)

shows that you just don't get it.

If a guy lacks talent no amount of planning and quoting military geniuses will help. Hint: the other side has many more military geniuses on their side. Did you see the list?

Hillary chose the leadership battlefield but Obama FOLLOWED her onto it. Get it? She lead, he followed. She wins the leadership debate in the mind of the electorate by default. Battle was over before it started. He was so desperate to escape the NAFTA-gate he didn't see the landmine. Your guy is gushing blood and you are planning his next headlong rush into the next trap that he won't see coming either.

You are right, he won round one. She underestimated him. Round two showed that won't happen again.


by ineedalife on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:40:06 PM EST

Re: This testosterone-fest (none / 0)

I have a feeling its going to be about integrity next, and that's a minefield for Hill.


by Socraticsilence on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:24:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Swimming in de Nile (none / 0)

Obama supporters are laughable. Obama has nothing. His hypocrisy and negatives are beginning to show. The big story is going to be Hillary's dramatic success and the equally dramatic decline of Obama, the flash in the pan that didn't pan out.

Go ahead and regroup all you want. The free ride is over. As Gene Lyons said, "...Obama supporters are living in a fool's paradise if they imagine this will continue."


by Nobama on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:47:38 PM EST

Dramatic success (2.00 / 3)

Indeed, her dramatic victory last night netted her between 4 and 8 delegates, depending on late counts. He's doomed. He's ruined. He's exposed. It's all over. He's a flash in the pan and the good-hearted people of Ohio and Texas and Rhode Island finally ripped off the facade. And all Hillary got was about 5 lousy delegates. If she's going to make a case to superdelegates, she needs to start winning pledged delegates first. My guess is that Wyoming and Mississippi will wipe out this paltry March 4 margin anyway. But I'm sure Pennsylvania will turn things around. If she's lucky she'll emerge with another whopping 5 delegates. That'll show'em.


by elrod on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:55:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Swimming in de Nile (none / 0)

Actually, the "free ride" will continue in Mississippi and Wyoming, though I'm sure that they will be rationalized away as red states beneath Clinton's attention.


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:59:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Swimming in de Nile (none / 0)

Speaking of Red States that shouldn't have anything to do with figuring out who the Democratic nominee should be, who did Ohio and Texas go for in 2004?  And hey, what about Florida too?  Hmm....


We are the change we've been waiting for.
by jlars on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:22:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Swimming in de Nile (none / 0)

Yes, by all means keep making that apples and oranges comparison if it makes you feel better.


by rfahey22 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:37:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

lets see (none / 0)

Total pledged delegates up for grubs yesterday: 370

Hillary gain: 12-16 at the most.

to put in perspective:

California pledged delegates: 370
Clinton gain there: 41


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:29:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 1)

By the way he was running radio ads criticizing her war record and judgement in Texas but you won't hear about that.

How is it that he gets to attack her for not having the judgement to be president in radio ads and all this while , how is that different from the 3 am ad ,

is it because the attacks haven't worked on Clinton and that is his vulnerability ?

Thats basically what he has been saying all along she voted for the war so she doesn't have the judgement to be president , just because it hasn't worked doesn't make it any less different.

She went straight at the heart of his vulnerabilities and his supporters are shaking in their boots .

I had been saying it since the middle of last year why the hell won't she talk about national security , thats the main reason a lot of her supporters are with her.

Obama can't beat her on that score , he has tried everything and it hasn't worked . he though the vote would hang her but voters don't see it that way.

I am curious to find out the way he would try again to undermine her national security credentials.

Needless to say it won't work , she has crossed a threshold and he hasn't.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:49:04 PM EST

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Well, outside of her position on the Armed Services Committee just what are Hillary's national security credentials?  The AUMF vote?  Name something, anything that distinguishes her in this area besides pugnacious rhetoric.  What was her security clearance during her period as First Lady?  How many NSC meetings did she attend?  Are you just assuming she was involved or was it pillow talk with Bill that qualifies her?  Don't mean to be too snide, really, but what specifics would you offer?


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:59:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 0)

Did you watch the morning shows , one of these reporters put it across to her , i guess they got the memo from the obama camp,

She just answered it cooly ,

from her work on 9/11 with the firefighters , to the ireland deal , she went through a whole host of things

meanwhile guess what Obama said I have no experience and she doesn't either.

How is that not an ad waiting in the general election for him.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:04:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

She met with some local folks in Ireland; she didn't craft a peace deal.

And helping the firefighters was great, but that's pretty normal constituent service and not heavy lifting since the country was united after 9/11.

Travel as a first lady is not foreign policy experience - it's meet and greet stuff.


by mainelib on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:06:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Could you please explain to me what connects the issues of fire-fighter welfare have to do with national security besides the digits '9-1-1' and my understanding of her role in Ireland was that it was largely ceremonial.  This is exactly the kind of thing which requires more scrutiny.  If that's indicative of her answer I would suggest she actually could have a problem here.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:09:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

So when did Obama have even that much experience?


by Scotch on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:12:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

The point is they are actually on equal footing, you see.  The Empress isn't wearing any clothes, so to speak.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:32:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 1)

Agreed, Nancy Reagan pushed D.A.R.E. and "Just Say No" pretty hard but I think people would have laughed if someone had tried to make her head of the DEA.


by Socraticsilence on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:27:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 1)

She is the Senator in the State attacked on 911.  She has a lot of support from first responders there because of the way she responded and worked with them.  She was closer to the issue of terrorism and solutions, legislation, and the entire issue of National Security just based on the whole situation there.  As well, you know that Clinton was not just living in the whitehouse during the Clinton years.  She might have not had Nsc, but she certainly was close to issues relating to it, and decisions made.  It has always been evident how involved she was as a first lady, and there is a wide area of national security that she could observe, talk with Bill about, etc. enough to gain a large well of knowledge. He has always consulted her on ideas and she has been a sounding board.  you can't tell me that the observation she was able to have for 8 years was not more than Obama was privy to.  I think that realization is shared by a lot of americans and the majority don't buy the idea that being the first lady that she was, didn't help her be ready for handling it.


by Scotch on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:11:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Responding to constituents in a time of need is what all politicians do - heck, by that measure Giuliani should be a wiz on foreign policy, too.  Additionally, the things she may or may not have done in the Clinton White House are speculation.  She has not been "vetted" on this point.  


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:23:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

If that's all you've got this is going to be easier than I thought.  Four-fifths of five-eights of next to nothing it seems to me.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:34:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Of course he criticized her judgment.

Are you arguing she showed good judgment in voting for the war?


by mainelib on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:05:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

He actually won Iraq war-oriented voters in Texas. He just couldn't break through the cultural loyalty Latinos have for the Clintons. The 3am ad did nothing according to most people in Texas except to make her look silly. Democrats I know in East Tennessee (I know you're in TN but where? I'm in Maryville...anyway) think it was a typical GOP ad and they didn't find it particularly effective - even those who like Clinton.

As for Ohio, she won it because she had Ted Strickland working for her, and Ohio is in desperate economic straits. She does well in the Rust Belt as she does here in Appalachia. I grant her that. But it isn't national security that's driving it. It's economic security and many of these downscale white voters want lots of policy promises that she delivers in every detailed speech. Her style works for these voters. Unfortunately for her, it doesn't work for most Democrats - and certainly not Independents - elsewhere.  

But the war support thing matters a great deal. A lot of Hillary supporters hold it against her too, though they don't see it as a dealbreaker. Frankly, I don't see it as a dealbreaker either. After all, Kerry went the safe route too. But her national security cred just isn't particularly strong compared to Obama anyway. He's passed a nuclear non-proliferation law with Lugar. He's worked on an Iraq contracting law.  She has a bunch of generals who worked for Bill on her side. Whoopdeedoo. The vast majority of generals and officers despise both Clinton and Obama because they're all Republicans (including many who hold irrational hatred for the Clintons for cutting the military in the 1990s). She is just as vulnerable on national security against McCain as Obama. Both Democrats will face the inevitable charges on national security. But the economy will be a bigger issue, and McCain won't win that argument no matter what.


by elrod on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:09:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Regroup (none / 0)

Shaun,

I'm not sure what 'psychological victory' you speak of.  HRC started the evening down by 157 pledged delegates.  RI and VT were a wash.  She won delegates in OH, and Obama won delegates in TX.  Her net gain is going to be minimal, perhaps even single digits, on a night when 350+ delegates were at stake.

Prior to last night most analysts were telling us that HRC needed sweeping victories, on the order of 20% or more to survive.  Two more delegate-rich states have voted, and she made little progress.  She barely held her own in states where she was presumed to have a vast lead a couple months ago, yet somehow this gets spun into a great success by the MSM.

By the time WY and MS vote next week, Obama's lead in earned delegates will be back to the same level it was prior to last night.  Yet the goalposts keep getting moved for Hillary.  And the bar keeps getting lowered.  This entire primary season has been an exercise in revisionsim, to Hillary's benefit.


by global yokel on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:50:08 PM EST

Re: Regroup (none / 0)

Well, I take your point that the math is in Obama's favour but it's fair to say she has played the media like a fiddle over her victories recently.  I don't know how this can be denied.  Notice that I am basically taking cues from the Obama campaign in regard to tactics, with a bit of embellishment, to be sure, it's time to go toe-to-toe with her on negative campaigning, she must be made to work for it and take as many hits as she lands.  We have seven weeks to go to Pennsylvania and can't afford to let her continue this kind of campaign without an effective riposte in my opinion.  

The math is on our side, to be sure, so we are fighting on enemy soil, so to speak, but fight we must.  At least that's how it seems to me.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:04:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Regroup (2.00 / 0)

Revisionism started when Obama talked negatively about Bill Clinton years. The only President majority Democrats liked in last 28 years.

Seems like you forgot that quickly. New to the party?:-)


by Sandeep on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:24:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't see how to beat the math (none / 0)

So Hillary ends up +6 or +8 after this great victory. Chances are she'll lose that all on Saturday by not contesting states like Wyoming.

I know the campaign is counting on the super delegates to see that she can cherry pick states and win, but they also see Obama raising a hell of lot of money, getting big followings and competing in all 50 states.

Or she's hoping the party changes the rules and gives her FL and MI delegates. Gee, when was the last time someone changed the rules to be president - lets ask Al Gore.


by mo on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:54:12 PM EST

Re: I don't see how to beat the math (none / 0)

He still leads in the popular vote totals overall...


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:41:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't see how to beat the math (none / 0)

But for how long? Pa and Mich and FLa revotes probably will wipe the popular vote lead out. It will then be up to all the others and if I were Obama I wouldn't count on NC giving me a huge win any more.


by Judeling on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:08:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't see how to beat the math (none / 0)

That is a considerable point and the first decent rational argument I've heard for the supers siding with Senator Clinton. If she wins the popular vote she will have an argument. But that's a huge IF when she is likely to lose several states (if past is prologue) by 15-20 points (Wyoming, Mississippi, Montana?).


Senator Obama will be formally nominated on August 28, 2008 - the 45th Anniversary of Dr. King's "I Have A Dream Speech."
by brimur on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:17:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't see how to beat the math (none / 0)

I don't she wins the popular vote total.  If you were to count MI and FL as they stand, Clinton would have a very small lead.  Presumably, that lead would evaporate in re-votes (after all, Obama would receive some votes in Michigan).  It's unclear to me that she would make up those votes in the remaining contests.  

Also, and this is a very important point: Maine, Washington, Nevada, and Iowa have not released vote totals.  So, it's not even clear that throwing Michigan in would give Clinton a lead at all.  


by rfahey22 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:46:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't see how to beat the math (none / 0)

Tell you what if MI and PA are in the bag for Hill, then NC is Obama country.


by Socraticsilence on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:30:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't see how to beat the math (none / 0)

You don't understand the math.  Say she's down by 125 going into the convention.  That means she needs 125 supers to pull even.  Then, on top of that she needs 51% of the remainder to win.  There are 796 superdelegates, meaning that with a 125-delegate deficit, she would need 398 + 125 = 523 superdelegates, or 66%.  However, about 200 are currently pledged to Obama, meaning that the situation is far more precarious than that.


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:57:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't see how to beat the math (none / 0)

Scratch that - I meant to say that she would need 125 + 336 = 461, or 58%.  But, with about 200 seemingly loyal to Obama, she would have to win the vast majority of unaffiliated superdelegates.  The point is that the delegate lead matters - the candidates will not be on equal footing, should they still be competing at the convention.


by rfahey22 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:05:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 2)

My view of the Obama campaign is somewhat different from yours. I see a campaign that is willing to stab progressive constituencies in the back for momentary advantage. They did this to lesbians and gays with first McClurkin and latter Kirbyjohn Caldwell. They needed to reach out to evangelical black voters. So they scheduled the gospel singer to headline an event in SC. First we were told it would be only a brief appearance. So when he took over and emceed the whole event, we were told it was just a simple error. Then the supporters started unleashing homophobia at those of us who were upset. Obama is the only candidate who has had campaign events picketed by progressives. Just recently he finally began reaching out to lesbians and gays. Figures, he has sewn up black vote so now he comes to us. Perhaps losing this demographic by two to one had something to do with it.

I think your premise is false. Obama has run a nasty negative campaign IMHO and now it is catching up to him.


by DaleA on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:01:28 PM EST

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

The McClurkin incident was, indeed, a low point of the campaign. Probably THE low point. But I think he's reached out quite a bit since then. And don't forget - Bill Clinton proudly signed the Defense of Marriage Act and Hillary has never criticized it. She's going after the same cultural conservatives - only the white ones in OH and PA and not the black ones.


by elrod on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:12:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Hillary lead the procedural battle that prevented the FMA from coming up for a senate vote. She has called for repealing DOMA. She has a long record going back to Arkansas with gay people. She has had gay staffers and gay people around her for years. And stood up for them against right wing attacks. Obama appears to have no prominent gays in his campaign.


by DaleA on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:21:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

oh my god (none / 0)

are you actually suggesting he gets gay people in his campaign staff just because she has gay people in hers.

1. People who help him run campaigns are judged on competence not their sexual.

2. you do not know how many gay people are in his staff

Seriously, most dumbass comment ever.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:33:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: oh my god (none / 0)

No, I am suggesting that someone who has openly gay staffers is most likely very comfortable with gay people on a personal level. And that someone who does not have openly gay staffers is probably personally uncomfortable with gay people.


by DaleA on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:38:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yeah... (none / 0)

by that argument, ever person who does not have a gay friend is a homophobe.

no offense, but do you actually read what you write before posting?


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:44:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah... (none / 0)

This applies to public officials, not ordinary citizens. Yes, I do read what I write. Do you use this same tone with everyone?


by DaleA on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:42:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah... (none / 0)

So in your thought process public officials are special of people who must make friends with gay people and put them on their stuff, just because they are gay.

Add on, no I do not usually use this tone with everyone, your comment is just super ridiculous.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:48:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 1)

The mainstream media's (and now bloggers') "kitchen sink" reference eludes me, unless by kitchen sink they also mean the dirty dishes that the Obama campaign itself left for all to see.  NAFTA-gate and Rezko may have been blown out of proportion by the Clinton campaign (as you'd expect in high-stakes politics) but they didn't originate from them.

What else comprises this "kitchen sink" job?  The 3AM phone call?  The ad questioning why there hasn't been a single oversight hearing on Afghanistan?  Wow, if Obama thinks that's the kitchen sink job, then the Dems are doomed if he becomes the nominee.


by Sieglinde on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:07:40 PM EST

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Well, as Hillary supporters have sometimes gleefully  pointed out the NAFTA and Rezko issues did originate with the CLinton campaign, at least as far as the opposition memos which were reaching the desks of the media, sometimes a half a dozen daily, demanding scrutiny.  And the suggestion she was unsure of his faith and the favourable comparison of her national security credentials to McCain's against Obama's were seen as 'crossing the line' in some quarters and could not be seen positively by most superdelegates, don't you think?  No, 'kitchen sink' says it well, I reckon.  Time for a little counter-battery fire.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:19:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

The Clinton campaign didn't put Obama's economic adviser and the Canadian consulate together.  Rezko was Rezko before Obama was even a US senator.  The Clinton campaign is simply doing its job to look for chinks in the shiny bandwagon.

Questioning national security credentials?  Would Obama supporters and the campaign itself be so naive as to think that's not a valid argument to make?  Does that complete your kitchen sink??  And what, pray tell, do you think of Obama's strategy to go Harry and Louise on Clinton's healthcare plan?  Do you even remember anything Obama makes that could be conceived of crossing the line?  Or do you just sweep them under the rug, and continue your worship dance at the feet of Obama Almighty?


by Sieglinde on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 08:01:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 1)

>>Under the circumstances it is unlikely that Hillary would be that choice

Hehe - unlikely assuming the Democrats decide they want to lose the general election, of course.


by mikes101 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:08:39 PM EST

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 2)

Interesting.  I read again and again on the blogs how Clinton wills stop at nothing to win, Clinton has no ethics, and how Obama is above the fray.  This article talks about Clinton's bordeline tactics and suggests that she is an evil threat to the health of the party.

But it is YOU, an Obama supporter, that quotes von Clausewitz.  It is an Obama supporter that considers this primary season a "war" to be fought by the rules of war, with metaphorical bayonets.  It is an Obama supporter that suggests, not just an appeal to the Superdelegates, but an "end run" designed to shut down her campaign - not on an appeal to fairness, but rather a strategy of brute force.

Actually, it isn't interesting.  It's typical, and disgusting.  Obama's entire base in the blogosphere is the exact opposite of his supposed message of a new kind of politics.  You WANT the old kind of politics, apparently - you just are frustrated that you haven't been very good at it.


by Kanzeon on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:09:21 PM EST

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 2)

When I was a Clinton supporter, I posted questions about Obama on the diaries of Obama supporters. I got a few arrows, but mostly real, sincere answers.

Now that I'm an Obama supporter (and thought for awhile I could be persuaded to go back to Clinton), I posted questions about Clinton on the diaries of Clinton supporters.  I got far more nasty responses, including very broad insults and taunts, and often things like ha-ha-ha, bitch is the new black, we will beat your messiah, and other nonsense.

I've seen it from both sides - that's what I saw.


by mainelib on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:14:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 0)

I agree.  If Obama is truly "a different kind of politician", he will concede now, negotiate a vice presidential spot, and run in 2016.  But he's too greedy for that - he is used to pushing other politicians out of his way - look at his history.  Now St. Obama is going to start running attack ads and going after tax returns!  How the mighty have fallen... you'll know it's over when Obama starts to mention Kenneth Starr and Monica Lewinsky.


by mikes101 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:16:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

And why shouldn't these scandals be mentioned?  Do you really think the Republicans won't?

After being told that everything (no matter how trumped up) about Obama must be put on the table because the Republicans will do it, suddenly it's just terribly wrong to bring up problems with the Clintons even though we know that these issues bother lots of independents and the Republicans certainly will be discussing these.


by mainelib on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:22:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Hehe - by all means, play the Monica card all you want!!  It's already well-known - and plays right into Clinton's hand - Hillary is already vetted.  Obama has to find something new and terrible about the Clintons that we don't already know, or else he is just desperately reaching...


by mikes101 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:24:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Good point.  I am not suggesting he stoops to these well-known incidents, there seems plenty of fresh material to work with.  But it isn't scandal mongering which I am proposing, rather going toe-to-toe with her on the issue she has raised, national security credentials and fitness to be Commander-in-Chief.  I don't see that her qualifications in this respect amount to much and if scrutiny is wanted she might as well have a little herself.  It seems largely an urban myth to me that somehow Hillary has much credibility in this area, beyond her Armed Services Committee record which warrants discussion in itself.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:26:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Well bring that on too!  By all means!  Let's look at Hillary's record on foreign policy vs. Obama's!  I still think you end up with Obama (a valiant speech) vs. Clinton who has already positioned herself through her votes as tougher in a general election on the issue of Iraq.  She trusted our national intelligence estimates, urged caution, etc.  What did Obama do?  He blindly went anti-war as a State Senator without knowing any of the intelligence, and  then fell right into line as a Senator.

Plus, Clinton brings Bill Clinton to the table, who waged 8 years of very effective foreign policy, and she has a better team of foreign policy advisors including Richard Holbrooke.  Obama has the crazies from the Carter administration!

Yes, by all means lets fight over national security some more!


by mikes101 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:32:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Nothing specific there whatsoever.  This is turning out to be more fun than I expected.  That was lame, I would love to see her stutter through that on Meet the Press.


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:36:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

And I would love to see you defend Senator Obama, and his idealistic view of the way the world works, against the realpolitik of Senator Clinton.  Hint hint.... it will not be the naive foreign policy that is advised by Jimmy Carter's foreign policy team that wins a general election.

How can you support Obama if you have any understanding of foreign policy?  He promises false hope, just like on his ability to "bring change".  Now that is lame.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:25:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

I've written some diaries on the subject.  You can find them here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here.  Hope you enjoy them.  I actually believe that foreign policy is Hillary's weakness and Obama's strength.  The AUMF vote is just the tip of the iceberg.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:39:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 0)

I think Hillary can handle those attacks perfectly well. Bring them on.


by Dari on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:23:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

sweet!!! (none / 0)

it appears you define a great politician by their ability to concede.

Assuming that you think Hilary is a great politician would not that mean you should be asking her to concede?


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:36:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sweet!!! (none / 0)

If Obama is truly a "transcendent politician", he will concede.  

I believe there are only a few "transcendent figures" in all of history.  I am not suggesting that Clinton or Obama are such figures.  But if he concedes now, he will have earned a lot of credibility from me.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:26:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sweet!!! (2.00 / 1)

Why on earth would he conceed now when he is winning by an almost insurmountable margin?  That makes absolutely no sense.  Hillary is not "entitled" to the nomination... she has to win it!


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:29:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sweet!!! (none / 0)

And she will win it - the writing is on the wall.  She wins the rest of the rust belt, PA, MI, and FL, and wins the popular vote.  Then the supers flock to her.  Game over.  Why does Obama want to play this out and hurt the party?  Checkmate in 5.

Hehe... ok, so maybe I'm being a little cruel - of course they can play it out.  But, look, I read Obama's books.  I was initially inspired by him.  I think it would be truly inspiring if he were to "reach across the aisle" right now and accept a Vice Presidency.  I really don't think he is going to be able to pull out the nomination.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:35:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sweet!!! (none / 0)

If she wins, and it's close and he does that then fine... I'd be very happy, personally!  Until then, it's ridiculous to concede now when your up by 150 delegates with only 600 or so to go...


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:41:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Please kindly define (none / 0)

"transcendent politician"


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:32:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please kindly define (none / 0)

Well, in my book, the quintessential example of this is Cincinnatus, and Washington - who both relinquished power - and in doing so - proved their greatness.  

I am not claiming that Clinton is like this.  Obama does claim to be of this order of politician.  Well, if he's so great, he could start by doing something truly great, instead of just giving a bunch of uninspiring, boring speeches.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:38:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But Washington did not (none / 0)

do it when he began his campaign against the british? He did it after a fairly long career.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:44:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please kindly define (none / 0)

Cincinnatus relinquished the dictatorship as all dictators were obliged to do in Republican Rome after a maximum of one year of service, having been called to the post by the Senate.  Cincinnatus' fame comes from the fact that his reign as dictator lasted merely sixteen days, according to Livy, the total time he required to muster the Roman army and defeat the Aequians, whom he treated fairly as conqueror.  So what?


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:49:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 1)

Why would he concede when, mathematically speaking, it would take a truly random chain of events for Clinton to win the nomination?  She should quit writing off "red states" and try to win a few of them so that she doesn't have to rely on a hail mary from the superdelegates.


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:39:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

It's the demographics.  She would love to win in places like Mississippi, but the 30% AA vote, at 90% for Obama, places her at an immediate 27% disadvantage.  How do you even try to overcome that?  

At the same time, Obama faces equally insurmountable odds in more important states like OH, PA, FL.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:40:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Wait to show he's a "new kind of politician" he should give up while ahead? How about this, to show she's not "divisive"  Hillary should concede in the name of party unity.


by Socraticsilence on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:37:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

I think von Clauswitz' quote is very appropriate and says it all.  A new kind of politics is about ethics and process, it doesn't mean you can't return hostile fire.  He's tried that and it didn't work.  He owes it to himself and his supporters to fight fire with fire.  Would you send UN observers into hostile territory unarmed?


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:22:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 0)

But I thought Obama represented "change", and he was going to "reach across the boundaries and form alliances with Republicans" (which he has virtually no history of doing).  I guess he won't be able to do this once it is revealed that, just as Hillary says, he is just another vicious politician who will run attack ads on Hillary, McCain, or whomever.  That sort of defeats what he has been saying for the past 5 months.

Obama going on the offensive will be fun to watch - I predict if it becomes a dogfight - Clinton will win handily.


by mikes101 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:27:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Well, if you had been paying attention, what I am proposing is that scrutiny be applied to her claim of superior qualifications on national security and suitability to be COmmander-in-Chief.  Whatcha' got?


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:38:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Let's see, for starters:

She represents 8 years of Clinton foreign policy that was, by and large, fabulous compared to Bush foreign policy.  Obama is an unknown.

*She has a longer history of service at the national level than Obama, with a measly 3 years (take away 1.5 since he has been too busy "running for president"), having been a Senator for over 7 years

*She has better foreign policy advisors as I mentioned in another post like Holbrooke.  Obama has idealists and Arab sympathizers.  Clinton can put together a better team than Obama - bar-none.

*She has been endorsed by 30 Generals.  Obama has been endorsed by what, 1 or 2?

I could go on - but I really think Obama has virtually *zero foreign policy chops.  And his claim to fame is his Iraq speech which grows more and more meaningless with each passing day - as headlines of the economy and the surge and "what do we do now?" trump anything anyone did in the past.


by mikes101 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:47:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Well that amounts to her time on the Armed Services Committee in the Senate plus the ceremonial role of First Lady and a gaggle of miscellaneous advisers and endorsements.  That's it?  That's what qualifies her as Commander-in-Chief?  Just as I thought.  Sounds like a level playing field to me, glad we had this chat.  Two junior senators.  Hmm...  Fancy that.  Let's tell the world, what do you say?


by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:54:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Nope, not at all.  She has Bill Clinton by her side.  He has Michelle Obama.  Check please!  I will take Bill Clinton and the Clinton team of policy advisors any day of the week over Obama's rag-tag team of Carterites.  And this is how people are voting too... sorry Shaun.  But people aren't going to vote for a complete unknown against the Clinton name and history.


by mikes101 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:58:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Haha, Clinton's expertise is her advisors? You don't think that no matter who is the president that if they call one of these magical advisors to serve their country they won't do it?


Senator Obama will be formally nominated on August 28, 2008 - the 45th Anniversary of Dr. King's "I Have A Dream Speech."
by brimur on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:33:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

I listed a bunch of reasons why Clinton is superior.

Obama has already cast his foreign policy with idealists.  Sure, he could call up Holbrooke.  He has chosen not to do so.  What am I to gather from his selection of advisors thus far?  And his endorsement of visiting with dictators?  Mainly, that he is idealistic and will be trounced by McCain in the general election, at least on this issue - the same thing that the good people of OH and TX also saw and voted on.

So yes - let's keep the focus on national security and foreign policy.  Let the whooping of Barack Obama continue unabated!


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:46:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

If your defence of Hillary's foreign policy expertise is the best she's got than she's toast on the subject.  That was pretty thin.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:51:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

So by the argument that a family name serves as qualification perhaps the Republicans should put up Jeb Bush next time, and we can put up Ted Kennedy?  I mean Jeb was in THE SAME STATE as George W. when 9/11 happened so that makes him a hero and I'm pretty sure Ted Kennedy was somehow related to the President in office during the Cuban Missle Crisis so I bet he got some relevant pointers there.

I'm sorry, because I don't want to get sarcastic and mean spirited, but this is the same logic that says Hillary is more qualified by her time in the Oval Office with Bill Clinton. The previous paragraph was only intended to point to flaw in logic. I think she's a great candidate, but no more or better prepared than Obama.


We are the change we've been waiting for.
by jlars on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:46:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Bill Clinton is her husband, and her closest advisor.  Sorry, but I'd say that is a huge intangible positive that Obama simply cannot compete with.

Ted Kennedy is a great example of a positive legacy - I will take that point.  

>>I think she's a great candidate, but no more or better prepared than Obama.

That's for the voters to decide, and so far, they agree with me.  You can say it is based more on voters intuition than any single instance of heroism, but still, Obama is on the losing side of this debate.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:50:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Sounds like a 'fairy tale' to me.  And what makes Bill an exemplar on foreign policy, anyhow?  Not one of our most impressive administrations in that arena, if you ask me.  


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:52:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Hehe, wow you are really tiresome.  Were you not alive back then?

Ask the voters, Shaun.  Those that can remember 1992-2000.  The only criticisms I have ever heard of Clinton's foreign policy are:

- Somalia incident

  • Times were so good and Clinton just "lucked into it" due to the collapse of communism, etc.  These are the same people who also argue that the economic prosperity of 1992-2000 also had nothing to do with Clinton.  Hey, I will agree that the President does not exert total influence over these things - but some credit is due.
  • Criticisms of lack of anti-terrorist efforts as revealed by 9/11 - after WTC bombing in 1993.

Combined, these are far outshined by Clinton's efforts such as:

  • Balkan war
  • Irish peace process
  • Arab - Israeli peace process
  • Global good-will / diplomatic negotiations with other nations

But again... you don't need me to tell you this.  Just ask the voters.  They know Bill Clinton.  They know his record.  And they like him.

And trying to equate Hillary Clinton to Laura Bush is just not going to work.  If you are going to equate her to any previous first lady, it is Eleanor Roosevelt.  And if you are going to say that such women aren't powerful influences in the White House, then you really are misogynist and naive.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:08:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 1)

You're selling a brand not a legitimate historical record.  I am surprised you cite the Arab-Israel peace process as a shining effort.  The Irish peace process is a service decoration but the Balkans cuts both ways and you have to wonder why he didn't have the chutzpah to tell the Europeans to take the lead role there.  Furthermore the loose strings are still unravelling and will potentially lead to further friction with Russia in coming months.

How about 1999 in Pakistan when the Clinton administration, embroiled in controversy at home assented to the coup d'etat in Pakistan which overthrew an elected Prime Minister and put Mucharraf in charge.  Good thing that hasn't had any subsequent negative repercussions, eh?  And how about the response to al-Qaeda after the 1998 embassy bombings in East Africa?  


In response to the bombings, U.S. President Bill Clinton ordered Operation Infinite Reach, a series of cruise missile strikes on targets in Sudan and Afghanistan on August 20, 1998, announcing the planned strike in a primetime address on American television.

In Sudan, the missiles destroyed the Al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant, where 50% of Sudan's medications for both people and animals were manufactured. The U.S. government claimed that there was ample evidence to prove that the plant produced chemical weapons, but a thorough investigation after the missile strikes revealed that the intelligence was unreliable.

Oops.  USS Cole?  Bill said:


"If, as it now appears, this was an act of terrorism, it was a despicable and cowardly act. We will find out who was responsible and hold them accountable".

What did we do?  Nothing.  That turned out well, didn't it?  Showed them a thing or two.

I could go on but you get the point.  Madeleine Albright?


When asked by Stahl with regards to effect of sanctions against Iraq: "We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?" Albright replied: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price -- we think the price is worth it."

Terrific, that went over really well.  Face it, the Clintons are domestic policy wonks and they should stick to what they understand.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:06:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

How about Most Favored Nation status for China?  Bad foreign policy and devastating for American workers, that's a two-fer!


"I, even I know the solution: love, music, wine and revolution" -The Magnetic Fields
by CranesAreFlying on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:28:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

I agree that Ted Kennedy is a good example of a positive legacy, but I don't think he'd win an election by stating that his brother was a President.  (Nor would he need to make that argument since he has a much longer public record than any of the other Democrats running right now).

As for Bill being her husband and closest adviser, I don't see why Jeb couldn't make the same argument about his brother George W.  Aren't brothers as close as husbands and wives when it comes to giving and getting candid and honest advice?

Again, Hillary is her own woman and she made that abundantly clear earlier in the primaries. I respect that and I think it's silly to say that because she's married to a President she's more qualified to be Commander in Chief.

Look at it this way.  If you needed a heart transplant would you allow someone to perform that transplant based on the fact that her husband was once a surgeon?  What if you found out she failed her CPR training (Iraq)?


We are the change we've been waiting for.
by jlars on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:07:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

>>As for Bill being her husband and closest adviser, I don't see why Jeb couldn't make the same argument about his brother George W.  Aren't brothers as close as husbands and wives when it comes to giving and getting candid and honest advice?

That would be a fantastic argument if Bush were a great president.  Unfortunately, he is a horrible President.

A better analogy would be something like RFK and JFK, had they both survived.

>>I respect that and I think it's silly to say that because she's married to a President she's more qualified to be Commander in Chief.

Well, that's your opinion.  I do think that Hillary will come to her own conclusions.  I do think that even without Bill, she trumps Obama's experience and wisdom.  But I will be glad to know that Bill Clinton is there to offer advice, just as RFK offered advice to JFK in the Cuban Missile crisis.  That is something that Obama simply does not have, and it is a huge benefit to the Clinton candidacy.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:12:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Touche on the Bush remark.  A poor example of a President by any scale.

Also, just to play the Devil's Advocate here, lets say that Obama won the nomination and then the Presidency.  If he wanted or needed advice about a matter of grave importance and Bill Clinton might have some insight, do you think Bill would with-hold it from Obama?

I realize this is ludicrous because clearly Hillary has this whole thing in the bag, but just humor me here.


We are the change we've been waiting for.
by jlars on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:32:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 1)

In fairness to Carter for all his major missteps (Iran, though this may have been inevitable) and possibly Panama, I think his legacy with Egypt-Israel matches anything Clinton achieved, and while the Afghan policy led to blowback (9-11, though I would argue that the GHW Bush refusal complete cut off in support is more responsible) it was a beautiful example of Real Politik, sapping the Soviets in a manner similar to how Vietnam drained us.


by Socraticsilence on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:47:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

And are Americans going to vote for the Clinton name and history in the GE? Didn't they do that once before - disastrously - with the Bush name and history. I thought you guys fought a revolution to get rid of British dynasties and kings (personally I wish we had too). But as an outsider it is amazing to me that the democratic party is so divided. Obama is clearly the smartest, most transformational presidential candidate you've had for two generations.

The loyalty to Hillary strikes me almost as royalty worship - the same way people loved Princess Diana or Lisa Minelli. It's a soap star/glamour/image thing which I don't get at all.


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 06:57:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 2)

It's become a war...  and we don't like it, nor do we want it... Any other candidate would have conceded by now after getting housed 12 contests in a row... She didn't... That's her right... Unlike Huckabee, though, she's decided to take off the gloves to bloody up the likely nominee (as well as the party).  If you are going to fight us like we are republicans, then expect a fight back.  

Nobody wants this...  Like the movie the Road Warrior, There has been too much violence, too much pain.  None here are without sin.  But, we didn't choose this battle.  She could have conceeded and walked away from the nomination.  The numbers are not in her favor.  She didn't and she started playing for keeps.  That's fine.  So can we.

I hate this, I really do... If she could win the pledged delegate count outright, I'd welcome her challenge and wish her the best--may the best candidate win.  But, the only way Hillary Clinton can win now is by a brokered convention and a backroom deal...  She really may be the better candidate... who knows?  But, a brokered convention is not good for anyone, even her...  It's a death sentence for our chances in November.  So, we have to make it end as quickly as possible...

It makes me sad, really... I would enjoy her candidacy if for no other reason than to see her rip John McCain's entrails out... And, I'm not convinced that Obama is the best candidate.  But, he has the delegate lead, and she can't win enough to overcome it.  The math is not with her.  So, we have to stand by the guy who is going to win the pledged delegate battle.  All she is doing is hurting our chances in the fall.  That is not acceptable.  Party comes first.  John Edwards knew that, so he quit...

So, we fight... I wish it didn't come down to this... but, we have little choice... we have to protect the party.  Too much is at stake in November.


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:33:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Don't lose faith man!  The Democrats will do whatever is necessary to nominate the best candidate!  They are not bound by pledged delegate totals.  Read Geraldine Ferraro's column in the NYT - she helped author the present system.  She wants the supers to exercise judgement.  If Obama continues to fall apart throughout the Spring, no chance he gets the nomination.


by mikes101 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:56:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

If they override the will of the people, there's going to be hell to pay in November... lots of folk will simply not vote... especially African Americans... I've been talking to a lot of them, they are already feeling scammed...

It's not a good situation to be in at all...


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:06:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Which I agree with.  The same thing is going to happen if the 49%-51% of the voters who are Clinton supporters feel shut out.

Which is why I think it would be truly great of Senator Obama to accept a VP slot right now.  Clinton is not going to accept a VP slot, so this is the only way to move forward successfully.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:10:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 1)

I started out as a Clinton supporter and now a firm Obama supporter.  Why?  In part because she IS such a divider.  

We all have different views on this. Personally, I see far more distortions from the Clinton side.  

Yes, Obama made some mistakes in this campaign and he will have to learn to be more effective if he is going to convincingly win.

But I am proud that I caucused for him and embarrassed that I ever supported Clinton.

And, by the way, her claim that her election will be  wonderful for girls (which she said in her last e-mail to supporters) makes me sick.  I don't consider her to be a role model for my daughter.  All she shows is that women can be just as nasty in politicians as men, while whining about how mean the media and their opponent are to them.


by mainelib on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:11:38 PM EST

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

There is an incredible double standard here...  

It's OK for Hillary to lose 12 states in a row (and dozens of delegates), but if Obama loses a couple of states with less than 10 delegates total, he's totally done!  Out of the race! Concede now! He's won 13 out of the last 16 (which is a better record than the New York Giants had winning the Super Bowl), yet he's treated like the Oakland Raiders?

So, who's the real rock star here?  Barack Obama, who, apparently, is in single elimination status after winning a ton; or Hillary Clinton, who hadn't won in a month and over a dozen contests, probably won't win again this month, but is somehow the "one to beat"?


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:13:22 PM EST

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 0)

Obama has won Illinois, Virginia, Georgia, Maryland, etc...

Clinton has won California, New York, Ohio, Texas, and will probably win Michigan, Florida, and Pennsylvania.

To extend your football metaphor, it is sort of like Obama is winning at NCAA Division 1 level, and Clinton is winning in the NFL.  Sorry, but it's true.  And no delegate with half a brain is going to buy that a Georgia-type victory equates to an Ohio victory, or a Pennsylvania victory, or a Florida victory.  Sure, you get delegates by winning Montana - that and $4 will get you a frappucino at Starbucks.


by mikes101 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:20:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Bill Clinton won Georgia in 1992.


by mainelib on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:23:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 1)

And Montana elected a Democratic Senator in 2006.


by mainelib on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:23:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 0)

Big deal.  It's time for the Obamabots to face reality:

In projected tight races with John McCain in Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, will the Democrats:

a) Nominate a candidate who loses those primaries by 10-15%, and is trailing McCain more badly in the polls, thereby potentially sacrificing 80+ electoral votes, on the basis of said candidate's showing in Montana and Georgia?
b) Nominate a candidate who won those states, and is leading or closer to McCain in the battlegrounds

I think the answer is quite obvious.  For all the talk of Obama-mentum, it really comes down to simple demographics.  Obama has never won over whites, older voters, Hispanics, union voters, or core-Democrat voters.  He wins yuppie progressives and AAs  - and that is all folks!  That is sort of a wacko coalition - that is not going anywhere in the general.  How could you possibly nominate him?  

(I will tell you how - he has to win PA or FL - or else he is toast)


by mikes101 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:37:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

What makes you think it will be so easy for Clinton to maintain the vaunted and oh-so-successful Gore-Kerry coalition?  I guarantee you that she faces an uphill battle in Wisconsin, and I would bet that she would be seriously challenged in other such states.  Moreover, the last SUSA head-to-head poll shows Obama winning Ohio against McCain.  Certainly it would be a challenge, but your electability argument is full of holes.


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:44:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Hmm, she's done pretty well so far!  She righted her campaign in mid Febuary, started raising money, she's got the Clinton name and the Clinton fight.  She's got the best policies out there - the most liberal positions.  If she's not our nominee, then I could care less who the Dem nominee is.  Count me totally un-enthused about running anyone else.

She is easily better than Gore / Kerry - just watch her speak, listen to her in a town hall meeting, watch her on the Daily Show.  


by mikes101 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:51:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

I'd feel unenthused about Hillary winning, 'cos she'd throw away downticket efforts in 34 states...  places where we can pick up possibly a filibuster-proof majority in the senate and in the house, too...

But, those states don't matter in her world... It's hard to get enthused about a candidate who has no interest in building up the party.  If she was really interested in building up the progressive movement, she'd want every seat she could get to help her.  I'm not convinced she is interested in that at all.

The party suffered greatly under her husband.  I am worried that scenario would repeat itself if she were president.


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:01:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Not true - she has fared better than Obama in the entire Southwest of the country!!  She beats Obama in places like Texas and Oklahoma.

And if you think Obama is going to help in these places, I think you are wrong.  Demographics are going to help.  Trust me - I live in Houston.  The only thing that is going to turn Texas blue is Republican corruption, and enough Hispanics and northerners moving here.

>>The party suffered greatly under her husband.  I am worried that scenario would repeat itself if she were president.

Well, Bill Clinton overall was still a great president.  Without his personal foibles and scandals (which I think is what Hillary brings to the table), even the other side of the aisle would be forced to recognize Clinton's greatness.  How much of the Republican revolution would have been prevented if Bill Bradley was president in 1992-2000 - the world will never know.  But I'm pretty sure it still would have happened.  The period of 1998 - 2000 may have been better, since the other President presumably would not get involved in sex scandals and impeachment proceedings.  

Hillary Clinton has demonstrated to me that she brings all of Bill Clinton's greatness, and none of his weaknesses, to the table.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:08:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

"Not true - she has fared better than Obama in the entire Southwest of the country!!  She beats Obama in places like Texas and Oklahoma."

Will she campaign there?  Will she set up offices and volunteers to get out the vote?  Will she stand by local candidates and campaign for them?

Kerry didn't and it was disastrous... Since she is of the same mold of campaigning, I don't see her doing otherwise.

As for the party under Clinton, it was financially bankrupt when McCauliffe took over.  The state parties had been left to rot.  I am not encouraged by history...


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:39:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Yes, she will win New Mexico and Nevada, for starters.

Will she set up offices in Texas?  God I hope not if it is close elsewhere.  And I am from Texas.  But given limited resources, I think the 50 state strategy is foolish in a Presidential election (not in general, but in the Presidential there are much more defined limits of time, money, etc).  You have to get the best bang for your buck.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:54:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

I understand what you are saying, but Obama has dedicated volunteers that can do GOTV in red states for the cost of envelopes.  Does she?  Considering her supporters have trouble getting to caucuses, it seems unlikely.

As for Texas... current polling puts Texas in play.  McCain is hated there, and the recent democratic party growth there has put the state within striking distance for the first time in 40 years.

See what the 50 state strategy can bring you?


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:00:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

If Texas is in play, then she has just demonstrated that she is the superior candidate by winning it wouldn't you have to say?  I've seen the polls in the local papers as well, and she fares better than Obama in a hypothetical matchup against McCain in Texas.  So what is your point?  Yes, if she has states in play I think she will go after them every bit as aggressively as Obama.  She has a great organization in place as well, and dedicated volunteers, and passionate supporters, which is why Obama cannot knock her out.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:15:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Just for a minute, I'd like to ask why we have to resort to name calling amongst each other here?

'Obamabots?'

Really?

Let's debate and please make those of us who support Obama look like fools if we make flawed arguments etc., but you sound like you got your cues from Limbaugh or Coulter when you use a diminutive like Obamabots.

In the end we're all going to support either one of these candidates in the general, right?

Right!!?


We are the change we've been waiting for.
by jlars on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:19:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, let's just fold up all of the regional offices and change the name of the Democratic Party to the Big State Party.  We'll save money and, if we win Ohio every couple election cycles, we'll even get a president or two out of it.

You do know that Obama would also win most of those states, and that neither would win TX, right?  This is almost too stupid to keep pointing out, but a lot of people seem to take this as some magical sign that Clinton would do better in the general, head-to-head polls to the contrary.


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:32:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

No, Obama would not win these states.  Check the polls.  And use your brain - Clinton is stronger than him in these crucial states - which is why she is defeating him in these primaries.

I will give you that Clinton may have a tougher time than Obama in some other states, like Wisconsin or Washington - but his other wins I see as more attainable for Clinton, than hers are for him.  Add it all up - and Clinton is the stronger candidate capable of putting up bigger numbers in the electoral college.


by mikes101 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:40:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Really, Obama would not win NY, MA, and CA?  Are you delusional?  Provide me some poll numbers, because frankly I don't know what you're talking about.  Here's the last SUSA from Ohio, showing Obama up 3% over McCain (granted it's a little old, but if you have more recent polling, please show it).

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollRepo rtPopup.aspx?g=49c24976-f2bc-4464-85f2-0 da141a18f6c&q=45622


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:47:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Obama will not lose NY, CA, and MA.  Gosh... what do you take me for?  I'm not bats&t insane.

However, *he will lose FL, OH, and PA.  Mark my words.  And good luck finding the electoral votes to make that up.


by mikes101 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:53:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Well then what are you talking about?  Each candidate faces electoral hurdles, but I've seen no evidence that either would be mathematically precluded from winning the race.  Both are competitive in the "swing states" and are leading McCain in many.


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:59:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

I am talking about the voters that Clinton mobilizes.

Latinos
Whites
Union voters
Older voters

Now look at each of the three states I am talking about - FL, OH, and PA - which Clinton is going to trounce Obama in the primaries in, and tell me how Obama is going to bring out those voters in these states!  The answer: he is not going to bring them out!  Sorry... I was just at the caucus last night, and all of those groups are visibly motivated for Senator Clinton.  Obama has AAs and yuppies.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:02:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Latinos may swing with McCain on the ticket...

A lot of Whites will vote McCain

Obama has significant union endorsement, and is drawing 2/3ds of the union vote...

Older voters may swing to McCain regardless...

She did ok with democratic men this time around, but others won't be her forte

Lots of non-democratic women don't like her either...

Just because these groups are big on Senator Clinton doesn't mean they will suddenly become republicans if she isn't nominated in November...

It's not either or...


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:09:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Well that's what the polls are for.  But last time I checked, they showed exactly what I am talking about - big Obama losses in the big swing states.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:12:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

I'm seeing Hillary losses in WA, OR, WI, MN, that's at first glance.  I do think she can win OH, but that's not enough!  You need at least the other 14 Kerry states!


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:24:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Check out Rasmussen - they have Obama potentially losing New Jersey to McCain (in addition to PA, FL, OH) - all of which Clinton is stronger in.  Obama is going to need to work some magic as well.

I am more confident that Clinton will fight for the presidency and win it than Obama.  He is going to be outmanned by McCain, just as he was outmanned by Clinton this Tuesday.

He needs to prove he can win in a dogfight.  He has not done that yet.  Welcome to the NFL!


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:30:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Wait they have Hillary losing Florida also, and then you have to take into account the states they have Obama flipping: VA, CO, NV (probably MT for what its worth) and IA.


by Socraticsilence on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:57:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

It's this belief of "some states being more equal than others" that has gotten you into this mess!  All pledged delegates are created equal.  You need the majority to win.  

By your comparison, you are saying that Notre Dame's huge win over Army in 1913 that made the school a national powerhouse, should be voided, because they were smart enough to use the forward pass for the first time.

They won that game, and a lot more 'cos they used every part of the game to their advantage...  Notre Dame may be struggling now, but they were a powerhouse for a long time.  As for Army?  Well, they  still don't pass the ball, and their team has stunk for 50 years!  The Army football team is like the DLC, stuck in the past and unable to win!

It's not the 90's anymore!  


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:50:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Mike, I think you are carrying the football analogy a little too far.

What I am suggesting, is anyone who thinks that the supers have "sworn on the holy bible" to honor the final tally of the "pledged delegate system" is laughably mistaken.  Clinton needs to make it close - she does not need to overtake Obama in pledged delegates - that's nice wishful thinking by the Obamabots.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:00:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

If they override the will of the people, there's going to be hell to pay in November... lots of folk will simply not vote... especially African Americans... they are already feeling scammed...

It's not a good situation to be in at all...


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:04:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Whoops!  That was meant to go upthread... but, it does apply here, too!


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:04:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (2.00 / 1)

I think that winning via SDs without a pledged delegate lead is going to lead to huge revolt and give her the appearance of illegitimacy.

Her only chance at both the nomination and legitimacy at this point is to hope to get a popular vote lead with ah FL/MI revote.  And even then, I'm not sure a slim popular vote lead is going to seem like enough to overturn pledged delegates.

That's my real concern with Hillary sticking around.  It's hard to see how her winning the nomination won't be disastrous.


by EvilCornbread on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:06:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Well I'm a Hillary supporter, and I can tell you that nominating someone based on pledged delegates from an unfair caucus system in places like Washington and Montana isn't going to leave me very motivated either!  And I think I speak for probably a good chunk (maybe 30% of Clinton supporters) who aren't going to be very happy with an Obama candidacy.  Not saying we might not eventually come around... but there was a reason for Reagan Democrats.  And there will be a reason for McCain Democrats as well.

Really, the only way to settle this is for Obama to accept the VP slot.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:15:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

And we have Obama Republicans out there, don't forget...

As for caucuses... The Clinton camp never complained about caucuses in 1992 or 1996...

If Obama gets the popular vote as well, then you have little reason to complain...  


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:26:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

and why should he accept the VP slot when he is winning?

If it becomes very close and he's lost a string of states... then, yes, it would be great of him to do that for the sake of the party... but, he's winning by a large margin at the moment... conceeding now would be ridiculous.


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:27:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

He is not winning, he is just prolonging the inevitable, which is Clinton winning this on the convention floor.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:31:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

How is he not winning?  He has an insurmountable lead?  If she wants to broker this at the convention, that is her call, not his...  What's with this, "Hillary is entitled to the nomination, how dare someone stand in her way," BS?  This is a democracy, not a monarchy....


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:35:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Are you 18? You seem terribly naive. Sorry. You just do.


Senator Obama will be formally nominated on August 28, 2008 - the 45th Anniversary of Dr. King's "I Have A Dream Speech."
by brimur on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:42:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Hehe... just calling it like I see it.  And I'd say Obama supporters are by and large the naive ones.  If he wins the nomination, he is not going anywhere.  


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:56:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

I'm not going to say that I think the caucus system is good or optimally fair, but it's the system that we all agreed on beforehand and it's the system that the candidates are strategising and campaigning for.

As it stands, Obama is winning by all measures.  Arguing that he should accept a VP slot strikes me a strangely delusional.


by EvilCornbread on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:48:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Well, perhaps delivering a speech against the Iraq war in 2002 seemed strangely delusional to some people too.  But think of the advantages both to the Democratic party, the country, and his own personal career going forward if he did accept!

I have always wanted this solution - Clinton 2008 and 2012, and Obama 2016 and 2020.  This gives us 16 years of glorious DEM leadership.  

It is the optimal strategy from a party perspective, based on what we know today.


by mikes101 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:59:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

I agree!  But, he screwed it up by winning so much!!! We'll see what it comes down to in the end.


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:03:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Why does "winning a state" in the Primary even matter?  Is there any evidence that wins in the primary translate into wins in the GE?  The contest isn't about states, why are we focusing at them?

How about this for GE implications: take a look at the county maps, and look who won the typical D areas and who won the typical R areas.  Can Hillary really win those states when she isn't winning all the rural areas like she is in the Primaries?  I'd say that's a much more real liability than the fact that slim majorities prefer her to Obama in a few states.


by EvilCornbread on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:01:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

I love that ETC. doesn't that include Missouri, South Carolina etc? And Clinton DIDN'T WIN TEXAS - not if you put the primary and caucus together.


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 07:00:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Didn't the NH abortion slime happen before that?


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:25:45 PM EST

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

It's called being a better politician if his fingerprints on the attacks aren't so obvious to most people. And the exit polls shows they're not. Hillary went nuclear and squeaked out the narrowest of wins. She won't be able to do that again.


Senator Obama will be formally nominated on August 28, 2008 - the 45th Anniversary of Dr. King's "I Have A Dream Speech."
by brimur on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:25:22 AM EST

Is This a Parody? (none / 0)

It is OVER. Obama is going to lose Pennsylvania, Florida again, Michigan again, etc. You keep focusing on the math, but the superdelagates are going to decide it, and they're going to pick the person who can win the states that the Dems need to win in November,not the guy who can win caucuses in Wyoming.  

It's OVER. You're in denial. I'm sorry. He's going to be in the VP slot.  


by cc on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:48:55 AM EST

Re: Is This a Parody? (none / 0)

Your post is like denial squared.  They can both win the states they need to win; ONCE AGAIN, the primary is not a direct reflection of votes in the general.  Jesus Christ.  Maybe Clinton should try winning some of those worthless "red states" and quit believing the magical superdelegates will save her, since they would have to vote almost in lockstep to do so.


by rfahey22 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:54:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is This a Parody? (none / 0)

If he manages to get trounced in a bunch of states, and he decides to concede, then you are right, and I'll be glad that this will be settled.

Until then, we march on!


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:04:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Such a flawed analysis (none / 0)

it's hard to know where to start...

"the Clinton campaign had cut their losses and reorganised for a last stand in a traditional, positional defence"

Clinton went on the offense; that's why she won.

"Obama's spectacular success has multiplied his enemies and forced him to divert his substantial resources to protect his flanks"

A fawning media meant he could leave his flanks completely unprotected, which he did, which is why Canuck Nafta and Rezko in the last few days hit him as a surprise attack.

"Obama's advance came within range of the heavy artillery of her overtly negative attacks, the 'kitchen sink' barrage, and was interdicted by her successful manipulation of the media's fragile, and fickle, sense of their own integrity"

This is so laughable, I think the poster might be engaging in parody, but just in case: Obama calling her dishonest is a personal attack; Her calling Obama inexperienced is a substantive attack.  Hillary Clinton's ability to manipulate the press is as real as real as Grenada being a great American military victory.

"Until now Obama's campaign has sought to stay above the fray and this clearly has put him at a disadvantage"

Right...muscling superdelegates, sending out spurious mailings straight out of the Rove playbook, ginning up the racial angle in NH and then in SC, etc, etc.

"through the mechanism of the uncommitted superdelegates or a major series of endorsements to choose a nominee.  Under the circumstances it is unlikely that Hillary would be that choice"

Based on what facts on the ground? Virtual tie in delegates? Virtual tie in popular vote?  Huge change in momentum on Tuesday? Check out the  several recent analyses of Ohio voters to see just how badly Obama lost support in his core constituencies.  As they say in the military, hope is not a plan.

"The Obama campaign can stand pat and let the burden of energy and friction fall on her campaign"

Hopefully, you're not a real general, because that's precisely what he cannot do.  Having gone into last Tuesday with 11 straight victories, a servile and ennabling press corps, and great momentum--advantages he will never have again-- he was stopped outside the gates of Moscow.

He failed to deliver the knockout blow, failed to refute recent charges, failed to win over HIspanics in Texas, began to lose support he'd had in previous races in Ohio, and has started to piss off the press.

The momentum has shifted.  She may be (or Mark Penn may be) Kutuzov to Obama's Napoleon, but like  that blundering, old fart,  she showed surprising courage and is now on favorable terrain with time  on her side. All she has to do is evade attack--by simply ignoring Obama and turning her attention to McCain--and it will be she who heads into June with momentum enough to win over the superdelegates.  

The only way this won't happen is if both MI & FL re-do as caucases--possible, but not likely.  


by desert dawg on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:52:09 AM EST

Re: Such a flawed analysis (none / 0)

Your hubris is amazing.  Who knew that Clinton only had to win a handful of states and she was suddenly inevitable again.  Does she maintain momentum even after her eventual losses in Wyoming and Mississippi in the next week?


by rfahey22 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:58:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Such a flawed analysis (none / 0)

Meaningless blips...all eyes are on PA.  Or do you think we Dems have a real shot at those states in the GE. Get real.  This is not about the math anymore.  Wyoming and MS are not TX and OH (and I think you know it).


by desert dawg on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:03:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Such a flawed analysis (none / 0)

Well, thanks for reading anyhow.  Hope you enjoyed it.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:00:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Such a flawed --but imaginative--analysis (none / 0)

I enjoyed it immensely--anyone who quotes Clausewitz and Liddell-Hart is to be admired. But remember Napoleon's most famous quote (and forgiving its sexism):

"The favorable opportunity must be seized, for fortune is female--if you balk her today, you must not expect to meet with her again tomorrow."

I think Obama balked:   he should have put everything he had into Texas, instead of making a losing gambit for Ohio. Or in your terms, he should have sent in the Old Guard when Ney asked for them at Borodino: he would have crushed her then and there, just as Bill Clinton thought he would.

I, for one, am a Hillary supporter who would have said he was the nominee then.  Now, I think it will be her.


by desert dawg on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:14:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Such a flawed --but imaginative--analysis (none / 0)

Your point is well taken regarding Texas, but then again the way this contest is measured the delegate race in Texas may have been diminishing returns compared to an even greater blow-out in Ohio.  And for the sake of brevity I spared our readers the Kesselschlacht analogy which is where it seems to me the race now stands.  Hillary is encircled, at least in delegate numbers and perceptions of propriety within the party, and while there is much smoke and thunder it appears her position is ultimately untenable.  We shall see.

But it is gratifying to share these perceptions with those who have an understanding of the finer points of politics and war, though we may occupy respective positions on the 'other side of the hill.'


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:31:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Such a flawed analysis (none / 0)

Um Obama tried the ignore his opponent and hit McCain strategy, I see no reason why this would work any better for her (especially since she's trailing, it would be like if Huckabee had spent the past few weeks attacking the Dems).


by Socraticsilence on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:03:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Release The Hounds! (none / 0)

Sir Basil Liddel-Hart

Possibly, the first mention in blogosphere history.  I thought he was the second baseman for the Arizona Diamondbacks.

von Clausewitz is a quotation machine.  Here's a few:

"Never forget that no military leader has ever become great without audacity. If the leader is filled with high ambition and if he pursues his aims with audacity and strength of will, he will reach them in spite of all obstacles."

"We repeat again: strength of character does not consist solely in having powerful feelings, but in maintaining one's balance in spite of them. Even with the violence of emotion, judgment and principle must still function like a ship's compass, which records the slightest variations however rough the sea".

"Although our intellect always longs for clarity and certainty, our nature often finds uncertainty fascinating."

"The true enemy is war itself." (channeled through Denzel Washington in Crimson Tide)


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 12:59:34 AM EST

Re: Release The Hounds! (none / 0)

My favourite von Clauswitz quote is likely, 'There is only one decisive victory: the last.'

But Sir Basil, bless him, channels our 20th Century sensibilities, well, sensibly, 'War is always a matter of doing evil in the hope that good may come of it.'


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:17:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kitchen Sink. Stop repeating it. (none / 0)

The "kitchen sink" tag, now burbling out of the media mouths like some repeating gastric reflux they came down with last night, is part of the lexicon of sexist smear cat whistles.  No man would throw a kitchen sink, or get anywhere near one.  Kitchen sinks are the sole domain of women, you know, in the room where they should be instead of going to work, or, gasp, running for president. It calls up desperation acts.  Women get desperate; men get even.  Traditionally, it is shorthand for a blanket devaluation of any argument she makes:  it's not based in legitimate, read male, reality -- it's just some stuff lying around that she's throwing across the room hysterically, hoping to ding someone.  
Stop repeating it.  It's insulting and uninformative.
On to the Convention Floor!
by oh puhleeze on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:56:29 AM EST

Re: Kitchen Sink. Stop repeating it. (none / 0)

Ok, hey if any Obama win is described as a "slam dunk" or if PA is seen as "long shot" for Obama are those racism dog whistles? Seriously, the Kitchen Sink is a pretty well known analogy.


by Socraticsilence on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 02:06:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kitchen Sink. Stop repeating it. (2.00 / 2)

Not to mention that the phrase "kitchen sink" came from a member of HRC's campaign to frame their hackneyed, negative strategy for the week leading up to the 3/4 elections. From the NY Times:

"After struggling for months to dent Senator Barack Obama's candidacy, the campaign of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton is now unleashing what one Clinton aide called a "kitchen sink" fusillade against Mr. Obama, pursuing five lines of attack since Saturday in hopes of stopping his political momentum."

The origin of the phrase is this: "comes from World War Two when everything possible was used to contribute to the war effort...all metal was used for the U.S arsenal. The only objects left out were porcelain kitchen sinks." from www.meghan-mccarthy.com.

Come on, I am a feminist, in the true sense of the word, in that I support the issues of reproductive rights, equal work and pay, nondiscrimination, and of course, slamming sexism when it exists. But I am so sick of pseudo-feminists going nuts over this stuff, and suggesting that I should vote for HRC because I share chromosomes with her. A true feminist would not allow the candidates' genders to affect his or her assessment of the better candidate. Do you now want to accuse a benign descriptor, initiated by the Clinton campaign, of being sexist?  


by magnoliagirl on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 09:49:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Time to Regroup (none / 0)

Shaun,

You have gone a little academic here. But, nonethelss it is nice to see you keep fighting. I hope you keep up that fighting spirit this fall. No matter who win the nomination.


by moi moi on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 01:48:43 PM EST


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