Snipergate Just took a Turn for the Worst UPDATED

I posted this last week, but now I realise why, as a European actively involved in campaigning against Serb ethnic cleansing and attempted genocide, I felt so strongly about her lie. Christopher Hitchens has made it clear. It's not only that Hillary recklessly padded her CV, and refused to account for it in any coherent way. It's much bigger than this. He has now shown, as I always heard and suspected, that Hillary was the brake on Bill when he initially wanted to intervene and hammer the heavy Serb guns to stop the massacre of innocent civilians. That she should use this war, the same war she helped to prolong, to enhance her credentials, is really deeply shameful.

The Hitch's piece is here

http://www.slate.com/id/2187780/

My original diary below

Oh and I should have realised I would get lots of 'What did you Brits do?' comments. Since I've already explained umpteen times how pusillanimous the British government were, and how I and many others really welcomed US military intervention here, I'll refer you to the previous answers I gave

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/3/28/132411/775#readmore

Update [2008-3-31 18:12:56 by brit]: Despite the two instances cited by Hitchens, and because no one seems to trust him or the Bedell Smith book, or Roger Cohen's article, I have also found TWO contemporaneous accounts of Hillary dissuading Bill from intervening in 1993 in Elizabeth Drew's book ON THE EDGE and Richard Reeves, RUNNING IN PLACE. This is not just spin

Bosnia is now coming back to haunt the Clintons, and so it should. Though both America, and the Clintons, are loved in Bosnia for finally forcing intervention after the Srebrenica massacre of 2005, the whole Tuzla Tale media outrage has made me revisit my feelings about the Clintons and American foreign policy in the 1990s

Let me be totally frank. In the end it took the US to silence the Serb guns which had encircled the civilian populations of Bosnia for three years. For Europeans of my generation, the final and effective use of US military power totally changed our mindset about US foreign policy. Through the post Vietnam years, especially in Latin America, myself and fellow left wingers had seen American power as mainly pernicious. Bosnia changed all that. We finally saw the use of military force for humanitarian reasons. The US showed Europeans how ineffective they were at policing their own continent.

This new belief in liberal intervention spurred the actions to defend the Albanian majority in Kosovo, and eventually brought down Slobodon Milosevic and his wild genocidal nationalism. It obviously went completely awry in Iraq, but that's another matter.

What matters here is that Hillary's 'misspeaking' about Tuzla - her reckless embellishment of her own heroics, her misuse of personal danger, show shocking disrepect to the 200,000 people, mainly civilians caught in real sniper fire and mortar attack, who died in the biggest conflict in Europe since world war II.

Iraq has a similiar number of casualties (by educated guess) but it's population (20 million) is five times as big as Bosnia.

As a European deeply involved in the Yugoslav wars of the 90s, her fib is much more audacious and repellent than anything Jeremiah Wright has ever said.

It makes me realise how complicit the Clinton's were in dragging their feet and intervening to save Bosnians as the genocide began. Check out Roger Cohen's brilliant devastating critique of the Clinton's in the New York Times yesterday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/opinio n/27Cohen.html

Cohen is a brave and gifted journalist, probably one of the best to cover the former Yugoslav wars, and wrote a heart rending book - Hearts Grown Brutal - about it.

Given the shameless disregard for history and foreign affairs Hillary and her advisors have shown over this tragic war, I am amazed that no-one has resigned.

Ironically, one of the other great journalists to cover the war, and to pen a Pulitzer Prize winning book about Genocide as a result of it, is Samantha Power.

Power had to resign for describing Hillary, off the record, as a monster.

Given the real monstrosity of what happened in Bosnia, and Hillary's cavalier disregard for that, can we please have Samantha Power back?

Update [2008-3-31 16:11:10 by brit]: Having heard Clinton supporters aver that Hillary was pushing for intervention, when she was doing the reverse, her lie seems all the more egregious and shameful. It's not only valour theft, but victim theft

From Hitchens
Let me quote from Sally Bedell Smith's admirable book on the happy couple, For Love of Politics:

"Taking the advice of Al Gore and National Security Advisor Tony Lake, Bill agreed to a proposal to bomb Serbian military positions while helping the Muslims acquire weapons to defend themselves—the fulfillment of a pledge he had made during the 1992 campaign. But instead of pushing European leaders, he directed Secretary of State Warren Christopher merely to consult with them. When they balked at the plan, Bill quickly retreated, creating a "perception of drift." The key factor in Bill's policy reversal was Hillary, who was said to have "deep misgivings" and viewed the situation as "a Vietnam that would compromise health-care reform." The United States took no further action in Bosnia, and the "ethnic cleansing" by the Serbs was to continue for four more years, resulting in the deaths of more than 250,000 people."

I can personally witness to the truth of this, too. I can remember, first, one of the Clintons' closest personal advisers—Sidney Blumenthal—referring with acid contempt to Warren Christopher as "a blend of Pontius Pilate with Ichabod Crane." I can remember, second, a meeting with Clinton's then-Secretary of Defense Les Aspin at the British Embassy. When I challenged him on the sellout of the Bosnians, he drew me aside and told me that he had asked the White House for permission to land his own plane at Sarajevo airport, if only as a gesture of reassurance that the United States had not forgotten its commitments. The response from the happy couple was unambiguous: He was to do no such thing, lest it distract attention from the first lady's health care "initiative."

It's hardly necessary for me to point out that the United States did not receive national health care in return for its acquiescence in the murder of tens of thousands of European civilians. But perhaps that is the least of it. Were I to be asked if Sen. Clinton has ever lost any sleep over those heaps of casualties, I have the distinct feeling that I could guess the answer. She has no tears for anyone but herself. In the end, and over her strenuous objections, the United States and its allies did rescue our honor and did put an end to Slobodan Milosevic and his state-supported terrorism. Yet instead of preserving a polite reticence about this, or at least an appropriate reserve, Sen. Clinton now has the obscene urge to claim the raped and slaughtered people of Bosnia as if their misery and death were somehow to be credited to her account! Words begin to fail one at this point. Is there no such thing as shame? Is there no decency at last? Let the memory of the truth, and the exposure of the lie, at least make us resolve that no Clinton ever sees the inside of the White House again.



Display:


Re: Snipergate UPDATED (2.00 / 0)

KUDOS . . . rec'd.

Read more from voices in PA and NC here:

http://pennsylvaniaprogressive.typepad.c om/my_weblog/2008/03/bosnian-vet-acc.htm l


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 04:28:59 PM EST

Re: Snipergate UPDATED (2.00 / 0)

Why can't the woman just admit she lied and get it over with.  This is not going to go away Hillary.  We will forgive you if you just admit the truth.


My dream is Hillary will sponser a joint resolution to authorize the use of the United States Armed Forces against Trinity Church
by denounceandreject on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 04:31:31 PM EST

sure you would (2.00 / 1)

and she did admit that she mis-spoke.  I am sure you are asking Obama to do the same for all of his mis-spoken comments and self-aggrandizing at the cost of others more worthy.


by linc on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 04:37:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sure you would (2.00 / 0)

How can you "misspeak" when you are involved in a traumatic experience such as ducking cover under sniper fire?  Her reputation is that she will exaggerate to win at any cost and this is not helping her.  To compare this to what Obama has done is just pathetic.  He has not made an egregious lie as she did and this is why her negatives are at an all time high.  

She needs to come out and apologize for lying and the public will forgive her for it.  The longer she waits the more damage on her chances in winning the nomination.


My dream is Hillary will sponser a joint resolution to authorize the use of the United States Armed Forces against Trinity Church
by denounceandreject on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 04:47:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sure you would (2.00 / 1)

Please - Obama lies more than any Dem candidate I've ever seen. Get serious.

If you're gonna tell whoppers like that, then obama won't stand any chance of bridging the gap in November.


by Little Otter on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:23:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sure you would (none / 0)

When it comes to the GE and you are supporting Obama, please avoid the Empty Assertion technique.

Those of us volunteering for Obama have put a lot of effort into promoting an honest discourse, and it would be to bad to see those of you who have not yet joined up carry bad habits into the effort.

The Republican Machine is, in fact, more capable than the Obama organization at shredding empty rhetoric, so although there has been a measure of effectiveness in using hype against Obama (otherwise this would have been over a month ago), I don't expect it will work for a moment against McCain.

-cheers!

-chris blask


Motley Moose, Troll Free Blogging
by chrisblask on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:59:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sure you would (none / 0)

this is your main problem, quit complaining Obama is a meenie or the media are poopy heads and uplift your candidate.  This is politics 101 and if you don't understand it than I can see why he is closer to winning the nomination than your candidate.


My dream is Hillary will sponser a joint resolution to authorize the use of the United States Armed Forces against Trinity Church
by denounceandreject on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 06:09:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sure you would (2.00 / 0)

In Bosnia people were actually KILLED. It is disrespectful to them for her to exagerate the level of danger she was in.


by lion king on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 07:57:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipergate UPDATED (none / 0)

Because it's bigger than the lie.  From the article:

In the event, President Bill Clinton had not found it convenient to keep this promise. Let me quote from Sally Bedell Smith's admirable book on the happy couple, For Love of Politics:

   Taking the advice of Al Gore and National Security Advisor Tony Lake, Bill agreed to a proposal to bomb Serbian military positions while helping the Muslims acquire weapons to defend themselves--the fulfillment of a pledge he had made during the 1992 campaign. But instead of pushing European leaders, he directed Secretary of State Warren Christopher merely to consult with them. When they balked at the plan, Bill quickly retreated, creating a "perception of drift." The key factor in Bill's policy reversal was Hillary, who was said to have "deep misgivings" and viewed the situation as "a Vietnam that would compromise health-care reform." The United States took no further action in Bosnia, and the "ethnic cleansing" by the Serbs was to continue for four more years, resulting in the deaths of more than 250,000 people.

I can personally witness to the truth of this, too. I can remember, first, one of the Clintons' closest personal advisers--Sidney Blumenthal--referring with acid contempt to Warren Christopher as "a blend of Pontius Pilate with Ichabod Crane." I can remember, second, a meeting with Clinton's then-Secretary of Defense Les Aspin at the British Embassy. When I challenged him on the sellout of the Bosnians, he drew me aside and told me that he had asked the White House for permission to land his own plane at Sarajevo airport, if only as a gesture of reassurance that the United States had not forgotten its commitments. The response from the happy couple was unambiguous: He was to do no such thing, lest it distract attention from the first lady's health care "initiative."


by Drummond on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 09:04:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Christopher Hitchens? (2.00 / 1)

You might as well have posted on an opinion piece by Richard Wolffe.  What is with the British Opinionators being so absolutely in the can for Obama?

And what is it now, the entire Balkans conflict is now Hillary's fault?  Well, Brit, where the hell was your righteous gov't when Bosnia was being bombed back to the stone age?


by linc on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 04:34:55 PM EST

Re: Christopher Hitchens? (2.00 / 1)

Check out my previous diary on this. The Brits were crap. The US were great, eventually. Now we know why it took them so long...

And I write as someone who took years campaigning against the passivity of European powers, and who knows Bosnia well.

My government's wrongs do not make this lie OK.


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 04:37:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Christopher Hitchens? (2.00 / 1)

It is indeed amusing to see soo many **s crawling out of the woodwork, and claiming that everything bad about the 90's was HRC's fault.

Next up... she was also responsible for Vince Foster.  Oh wait, we did that already !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 04:38:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Check out my update (2.00 / 1)

I've now located two CONTEMPORANEOUS sources from the 1990s that confirm what Hitchens says

You might not like Hitchens. I could never quite understand why he was so anti clinton myself, though perhaps now I'm getting an idea.

But you can't ignore what FIVE different sources have said. Hillary (was one of several) who persuaded Bill not to intervene in 1993 and thereby helped prolong the war.

Any answer to that? I don't expect one. People once proved wrong tend to disappear from these threads


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 06:18:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Christopher Hitchens? (none / 0)

Christopher Hitchens has made it clear


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 08:49:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipergate UPDATED (2.00 / 1)

Perhaps the Obama crowd could make up its mind as to whether it believes in a military interventionist approach to foreign policy or not?

p.s. Putting "gate" at the end of a word is not clever.


by bobbank on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 04:37:57 PM EST

Your late (none / 0)

I was for the intervention. I'll link to my previous diary above just so we can't be distracted by that red herring.

I note that you only have herrings as your line of defence


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 04:40:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your late (2.00 / 1)

As I had not tried to defend anything, but merely set out to highlight further examples of Obamite hypocrisy, I'm not sure how you could conclude that I "only have herrings" as my line of defense?

Why don't you try responding to the issue I bring up: were you in favor of the U.S. invasion of Iraq?  Do you believe the U.S. should invade Saudi Arabia over its humanitarian affronts?

Assuming the answer to one or both of these is "no", perhaps you could expound your philosophy of international relations and explain by what benchmark you advocate military intervention.  If the answer is "yes" to both, please confirm that you will be voting for McCain.

Thank you.


by bobbank on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 06:26:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your late (2.00 / 0)

Intervening in a war that is already taking place to support the most innocent side in that conflict (and to prevent massacres) is a whole different proposition to initiating a war (and causing massacres) in order to overthrow a dictatorship.

One of the reasons that the latter has proven to be a bad idea is that if the population of that country had been ready to unify in favor of democracy, they'd have already been warring against the dictator themselves, without a need for deliverers from above.

When Bush came to deliver them, Americans were then stunned that the country wasn't unified in support of democracy and were asking themselves "Where are the Iraqi Washingtons and Jeffersons"?

Well, duh! If the Iraqi Washingtons and Jeffersons had existed, the Iraqis wouldn't have needed an American intervention to free them. The very fact that they weren't in revolution already (without need for external deliverers) indicated that their population wasn't ready to be unified in support of democracy.

Common sense really. Washington and Jefferson were the sort of people that created the American revolution, it wasn't an outside intervention that created them.

In contrast the Bosnians were already waging a war of independence against the Serb-dominated Yugoslavia. They were ready for independence, they were merely getting defeated (and ethnically cleansed) by the Belgrade-supported Serbs.


by Aris Katsaris on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 06:57:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipergate UPDATED (2.00 / 1)

Nope..it is the silly Europeans, ably led by the Vance-Owens group, who wanted to "negotiate without preconditions" with Karadcic and Mladic.  And you cant have negotiations without preconditions if those ugly Americans are letting loose with their bombs.

Geesh...what an audacious rewrite of history !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 04:42:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Shame you didn't read the diary (none / 0)

And just listened to your own inner voice of prejudgement. I agree with you on Vance Owen. And probably most else about US intervention, except those who tried to slow it down e.g. British Government and apparently Hillary.

You didn't read my text. Is that because I'm European and insignificant?


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 04:49:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shame you didn't read the diary (2.00 / 1)

Oh, I read your diary...I find crude attempts at rewriting history very amusing.

And so I cant answer your question as to whether you are European and insignificant because the preamble to that question does not apply!

Can you cite any contemporaneous sources (i.e., an account written in the 1990s) about how HRC was responsible for the "lift and strike" option being quagmired.  Because..you know...most people were reporting that it was the Europeans who were at fault.

If I look hard enough, I can probably find someone who NOW claims that Sen. Obama was responsbible for the Bosnia tragedy because he graduated from law school in 1991!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 04:57:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Duh! (none / 0)

You clearly didn't read my diary and the thread below because I completely agree with you the European governments were supine and guilty of doing nothing.

Does that change my point? Hillary lied repeatedly, on teletext as well as print, about her 'heroic' role in a genocide it now transpires...

She was against intervening in.

I think that's pretty shameless, above and beyond the normal politician ability to short sell truth.

Are you a fishmonger? Because you're pretty persistent in pushing these red herrings


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:03:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Duh! (2.00 / 1)

I think you are deliberately being stupid...

Can you find any contemporaneous accounts (i.e., an account written in the 1993-1995 time frame) that Hillary was slowing down the "lift and strike" option.  

Because that is what you are claiming in this diary...that HRC slowed down the lift and strike option.  You base that on a source who is writing this up in 2008, and who has been somewhat biased in the past.

If you cannot find any contemporaneous accounts, then you have no case to argue.

When I challenge you on this...all you say is: (a) "you didnt read my diary" and (b) "she lied about snipergate.  You left out the followiing: (c) she is a horrible person, (d) she eats babies.

All of that will not change the fact that YOU are the one that is trying to rewrite history !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:11:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Duh! (none / 0)

Two Contemporaneous accounts are in my Hitchen's quote in the diary.

Now whose calling who stupid?


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:15:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Duh! (2.00 / 1)

Hello ?

Hitchens' quote is written up in 2008.  It cites passages from a book that is on "pre-order" right now...it has not even been published.  And it quotes Hitchens' own memory to suppress the arguments made in this (yet to be published) book.

Are you going to get better, or is this state of stupidity permanent with you ?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:20:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Stupid is as stupid says... (none / 0)

So a book or article published in 2008, which cites two verbatim accounts of what happened in the 1990s don't count.

Why is that? Do you think everyone has a problem with memory like Hillary?

Hitchen's published the same recollections in the early 90s, but for ANOTHER contemporaneous account read Hearts Grown Brutal. I'm looking for the reference now. It's Hillary who hands Bill the Ghosts of War book


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:32:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stupid is as stupid says... (2.00 / 1)

So a book or article published in 2008, which cites two verbatim accounts of what happened in the 1990s don't count.

That would be a NO.

Not when you are asked for a contemporaneous account.  

And no, those are not verbatim accounts...those are accounts written up 13 years after the fact.

A contemporaneous account is a newspaper article written as the event happens, or very soon thereafter (hopefully written up by a mainstream newspaper, not by one of those nutjobs that existed merely to sell the latest evil deed doen by the evil Clintons)


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:42:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stupid is as stupid says... (2.00 / 1)

That would be yes, since Hitchen's has a contemporaneous account.

But if you're really want to be slammed down, how about this:
e
Elizabeth Drew, On the Edge: The Clinton Presidency (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1994) pages 54-55

She points out how Hillary read the book Bosnian Ghosts by Robert D Kaplan and believed its (tendentious) argument that Bosnians were born to kill and maim each other. She actively persuaded Bill not to intervene during the height of the killings in 1993

Gotcha. Are you going to apologise?

On second thoughts, you don't need to. You already look like an argumentative fool

Get Hillary to apologise to the people of Bosnia

C


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:48:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stupid is as stupid says... (2.00 / 1)

Let us see, as per Amazon, On the Edge was published in 1995 (November 8, 1995), and is an account of the first 20 months of the Clinton administration...it could hardly have been written in 1994.  It does not qualify as a contemporaneous account.

And oh, I do not know of any book called Bosnian Ghosts by Robert Kaplan.  You must be thinking of Balkan Ghosts...by the same author.  Perhaps you already know that this book was published in April 1993.  You may not realize this, but the "lift and strike option" had already been quaqmired by then"...by the Europeans  


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 06:23:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thankyou for conceding (none / 0)

Now by contemporaneous account you mean a live tape recording? Wow.

Thank you for the correction. I actually got the name of the book and author further down the thread. But it's great news that you now concede Hillary influenced Bill with the book Balkan Ghosts in 1993 not to intervene. That's exactly the point I was making. I have now FIVE sources to back it up though and didn't really need your assent

Now. Back to my original point: don't you think it's shameless that Hillary's would lie about a war she did her own bit to prolong?

I await your answer. But I won't hold my breath. And be careful with those red herrings, mate. They stink from the head down


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 06:44:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stupid is as stupid says Mrs. Blue (2.00 / 0)

Good for you, Brit, in giving another perspective on the obvious conclusion.

Some of the folks here are still in Phase One (Denial) and others are moving to Two (Anger), but the cancer has metastasized so the outcome remains the same.

There are those who I would like to hold to sharper account, but generally this is a normal process and we have to cut people a bit of slack.  If is easier to frame it in the opposite, like:

"What would your reaction be if the word "Clinton" were replaced with "Obama" in this story?"

than to expect a simple answer to simple points.

The answer to the above question is obvious:  MyDD would be awash with "He's a lying Valor Thief!!"  "How could the hateful Obama supporters possible condone this type of Lying over the Honor of our Dear Troops?!?!?!?" "And did we mention that he is a muslim anti-American who Rezko Wright's the Michigan Florida racist??!?!?!"

It's done, now.  There was at best a 5% chance for Clinton if the Wright attacks had worked, now with the blantant (and, still surprisingly unnecessary) Bosnia fabrication, there is not an electable bone left in Sen. Clinton's campaign.

I suppose you saw this, Brit, but just to be complete:

http://pennsylvaniaprogressive.typepad.c om/my_weblog/2008/03/bosnian-vet-acc.htm l

In a month or two we will be trying to avoid packing the Supreme Court with more Far Right justices for the next eight years, so I hope we can all find a common opposition when the time comes.

-cheers, folks,

-chris


Motley Moose, Troll Free Blogging
by chrisblask on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:53:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Point taken (none / 0)

You're right. Consensus is important as we all move on. I had to just set this record straight, because Bosnia was for me like Vietnam was for many Americans, a real turning point in my adult life -  though oddly enough FOR military intervention rather than against it.

I guess a lot of people are going to see this as a pure propagandistic hit job. But it's not. It's very close to my heart. I'll calm down now and check out your link

cheers


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 06:00:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow... (2.00 / 0)

Does that change my point? Hillary lied repeatedly, on teletext as well as print, about her 'heroic' role in a genocide it now transpires...

She was against intervening in.

That just makes this worse:


FROM BAD TO VERSE FOR HILL

AIRPORT'S GIRL POET STUNNED BY SNIPER TALE AS INSULTED FELLOW BOSNIANS RIP 'LOW BLOW' LIE

March 31, 2008 -- SARAJEVO, Bosnia - The Bosnian girl who famously read a poem to Hillary Rodham Clinton during her 1996 visit to the war-torn country is shocked - and her countrymen infuriated - that the former first lady claimed to have dodged sniper fire that day.

Emina Bicakcic, now 20 and studying to become a doctor, told The Post she stood on the tarmac at the air base in Tuzla, greeted Clinton and even had time to share the lines of verse she'd written - all without fear of attack from an unseen enemy.

...

ps. I'd recommend this Diary but it appears my ability to rate and recommend have been yanked. :)


by kraant on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:12:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Liar Liar Pantsuit on Fire! (1.00 / 4)

Hillary should be ashamed.

Which of these statements are true?

#1 Bosnia was safe when Hillary went.

#2 Bosnia was a very dangerous trip. Hillary took her 15 year old daughter into a war zone and is a terrible mother.

If it's #1, then she is just a lying liar.

If it's #2, then she is a terrible mother with horrible judgement.

Which is it?


by Chimpeach on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 04:49:12 PM EST

Re: Snipergate UPDATED (2.00 / 1)

You've been snookered by a couple of notorious Clinton haters. Christopher Hitchens, who falsely testified against his friend Sidney Blumenthal to Ken Starr, in a drunken, self-aggrandizing attempt to further Bill Clinton's impeachment, and Sally Bedell Smith, a Camelot burnisher who gave up any claim to integrity as a historian with her error-riddled screed against the Clintons.

These two have about as much credibility on anything Clinton as Andrew Sullivan. And none of them care much for the Democratic party.


by souvarine on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:09:56 PM EST

Back to the 'insignificant' argument (none / 0)

You'll run out of ad hominems soon. Are you going to discredit Roger Cohen too, Hearts Grown Brutal.

Straws, meet clutching.


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:21:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back to the 'insignificant' argument (2.00 / 1)

People like Samantha Power and Roger Cohen were deeply affected by the horror they saw in Yugoslavia, as Cohen makes clear in his column. Many of them are angry that the United States, and Bill Clinton specifically, did not do more to stop it.

Cohen transfers all the anger and hatred that has grown out of his own helplessness in the face of that war onto Hillary Clinton and her "unquenchable ambition." Cohen's work, like much of Power's, stands on its own. But this column discredits itself, just as Power discredited herself as an American political operative.


by souvarine on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:51:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for your more reasoned tone (none / 0)

I don't actually think we need to revisit all the rights and wrongs of the Bosnian war. I disagree about Powers and Cohen, and they well deserve their accolades and awards.

Elizabeth Drew however has no axe to grind when she wrote in 1994 how Hillary was instrumental in dissuading Bill from intervening in 1993

Even Hillary's aversion to military intervention then is somehow understandable - but then the more recent claim of flak jackets, snipers, cork screw landings.

Maybe this explains this otherwise inexplicable lie. I don't understand how it happened so often, so repeatedly, unless she somehow convinced herself she had been there under fire.

And perhaps I'll give her some credit for this. She felt guilty, desperately guilty about her previous misjudgement, and had to rewrite history for her own psychic protection

Just a theory


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:56:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for your more reasoned tone (2.00 / 1)

I'm sure Hillary Clinton feels guilty about not doing enough in Bosnia or Rwanda, she was in a position of considerable power. But her one misstatement describing Tuzla in a speech does not strike me as a hanging offense. Apparently planes had been strafed, she was required to wear a flack jacket, and no doubt her Secret Service detail stressed the danger to her. So she neglected to say "under threat of sniper fire," she is much more likely to be a target than I am and I've been shot at. She didn't claim any great heroism or valor, she just reported that there were threats and she had to move quickly.

I do find it pretty disgraceful to see a bunch of pundits and newscasters pounce on the incident, people whose nearest experience of the business end of a gun was reporting on Cheney shooting Harry Whittington. And as a military brat it disappoints me to see veterans try to use their service to attack a Senator and former first lady.


by souvarine on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 06:24:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for your more reasoned tone (none / 0)

You've got a point about personal danger. But it was much more dangerous in Bosnia in the 90s. I didn't go until the war was over, but several friends of mine, Bosnian and otherwise, were in harm;s way,

You're obviously a genuine supporter of Hillary, and I must say you do her credit. But I do think she's been misadvised on this. She could have done herself a load of good by addressing the 'misrepresentation' in a heartfelt explanatory. 'Millions of words' just doesn't do it. She could have talked about the sufferings of war, and how she and Bill did their best to save lives. I would have bought that. But perhaps because her advisors are still locked in Republican fear mode, she just went into spin. It's becoming a tail spin. I'm sorry I bang on about this, but I really think it will continue to hurt her until she faces the music.

Or do you think it's already too late?


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 06:48:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for your more reasoned tone (2.00 / 0)

She may have been better served had she expressed her concern for the Bosnians. I thought her "I took her stuff" line came out wrong, she is usually more sensitive to the feelings of people who get caught up in these 'two minutes of Hillary hate' media frenzies.

At this point it is being fed by both Obama surrogates and the usual Republican suspects, they both are enlisting anyone with an axe to grind in their effort to smear Hillary. It is the kind of meaningless politics the Republicans specialize in, and Obama's taste for it is one reason I cannot support him. The sliver lining is that both Obama and the Republicans tend to overplay their hands in these attacks, with a little luck the backlash will come to the fore soon.


by souvarine on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 07:29:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipergate UPDATED (2.00 / 1)

Complete and total bullshit on Hitchens' part - he and Sally Bedell Smith are both well-established Clinton haters.

.olin Powell was the head of the Joint Chiefs and he was totally opposed to intervention in the Balkans - totally. Through the end of 93, Powell refused to make the case to Congress for lifting the embargo because of his understanding of what went wrong in Vietnam. As far as he was concerned, only "invincible force" and a "clear exit strategy" could justify the commitment of US troops.

In addition, NATO was opposed to intervention as well and held the administration in check from late 1992 on.

This is fiction. Nothing more. Pathetic that you're so quick to grab right wing talking points. There isn't a single recount of that administration from people who were there who remember it that way.


by Little Otter on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:43:10 PM EST

Check out my source above (none / 0)

So Elizabeth Drew and Roger Cohen are also lying?

See references above

You take your partisanship too far. These aren't right wing talking points. This is a real case of abuse of the past by Hillary, and all you can do is spin, spin ad hominems.

Really, if Hillary's advisors are anything like you, no wonder she is in trouble


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:51:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Check out my source above (2.00 / 1)

Alright - name ONE contemporaneously written book by a memeber of the administration who tells the tale that way. You won't find it. That isn't what happened.

If you and Hitchens' are right, then someone who was a part of the administration or who was writing a book about the Clinton admininistration at the time would tell the story that way. Instead, you're relying on the words of Sally Bedell Smith, who hates the Clintons and Hitchens, who hates the Clintons.

Colin Powell told Clinton it would take 400k troops to stabilize the Balkans, and no one thought that American citizens would accept the loss of life that would go with that.

Hillary's healthcare plan is utterly irrelevant.

But go ahead - find the contemporaneous NY Times article or the administration staffer book that backs your story up. I can't believe shit like this is being posted on  MYDD.


by Little Otter on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 06:23:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I love these changing thresholds... (none / 0)

They're a bit like Hillary's firewalls.

I've named two accounts now by journalists in the early 90s, as well as three other sources. You now have changed contemporaneous to mean 'written or recorded at the time'. It's too late in London, but I'm sure those journalistic sources will cite them. And now it's got to be A MEMBER OF THE ADMINISTRATION.

Give me time. I'll get over this threshold. Just as all your other firewalls have collapsed. And then what will you say?

I still don't believe it!

But the evidence is close to being overwhelming. And to save us all time, I'd suggest you look in your reasonable heart: you know it's true.  


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 08:45:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I love these changing thresholds... (none / 0)

This is a pet issue of mine. And none of the contemporaneous in house acccounts reflect your version. Hillary was well known for pushing to get in early.

This is a Rove thing - attack someone on their strength. That's all it is.

Hillary got this issue right and Hitchens is trying to take it away from her.


by Little Otter on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 11:44:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pet issue of mine too (none / 0)

Maybe it was you who said, in a comment, 'Hillary was pushing for something to be done', but I well remember in the 90s that Bill backed off, and the adduced reason was Kaplan's BALKAN GHOSTS, and Hillary was the one to read it first and hand it to him. There are now several testimonies to the fact she was against it.

It is bizarre, I grant. Throughout the 90s, friends of mine who had known Hillary personally would tell me "She's actually more liberal than Bill" and what a warm funny (and slightly smutty) person she was face to face. I don't deny any of that. But then there are the reality of her actions. I suppose all politicians want to be loved on a personal level, but have to do very unlovable hard things on a political level.

I'll find some more sources for you, but it might take a while as I'm about to fly to Poland.

But thanks for discussing this more reasonably. As I said in my diary, this is not a hit job. This is something I felt passionately about, and now - thanks to journalistic accounts by Wendell Smith and Elizabeth Drew - there is much more evidence Hillary was against intervention. Maybe you can provide some sources that suggest the opposite.


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:00:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Here's yet ANOTHER source - Bill (none / 0)

This is from an interview with Richard Reeves on PBS Frontline in 1996.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/ shows/choice/bill/reeves.html

Reeves wrote a book RUNNING IN PLACE about Clinton's first year in office. My emphases. Oh, and it's clear that Reeves is no Hitchens Clinton hater

"I think the Bosnian policy of the United States, which I don't disapprove of, is a perfect example of the Clinton presidency. That is, the President wakes up new each morning and so we have had 365 Bosnian policies a day. He may have been talking about it at home, he may have read something, he may have heard something. He is open to information. This is not a closed man, which changes his take on it. The most dramatic example came toward the end of the first year, when he agreed, at a series of meetings on policy called "Lift and Strike," lift the arms embargo on the Bosnian Muslims and strike at Bosnian- Serb targets. That happened on a Friday. Warren Christopher went to Europe to tell NATO allies what we were going to do, and that Monday morning there was a meeting in the Oval Office between Clinton, Colin Powell, then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs-of-Staff, and Les Aspin, then Secretary of Defense. And as he walked into the room, Clinton was carrying a book called Balkan Ghosts, by Robert Kaplan. And he said, "My wife read this and I read some of it too. And it says that we can't succeed doing anything in that society. They've been killing each other for thousands of years and they're going to keep doing it." And Les Aspin said later, he was sitting there thinking, "He's going to go south on Lift and Strike." And he called Europe, got Christopher, and said, "Don't say anything. The President's going to change his mind." And in fact the President did.


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:42:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Mr. Hitchens (2.00 / 1)

had this to say about Cindy Sheehan:

has obviously taken a short course in the Michael Moore/Ramsey Clark school of Iraq analysis and has not succeeded in making it one atom more elegant or persuasive.

He also thought it a good idea to refer to Mother Theresa as:

The Ghoul of Calcutta

This man sucks and regardless of his supposed left leanings, he is really just looking for some attention here.  He should not be a character of reference.


by linc on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 06:01:29 PM EST

Re: Mr. Hitchens (none / 0)

But he is quoting another book. And just to answer your point, I'll update with the links to Roger Cohen and Elizabeth Drew.

Thanks


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 06:06:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow. (none / 0)

Is this really all you got?


allprogressives.com
by Scan on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 06:34:00 PM EST

Excellent diary. (none / 0)

And damn brave of you to post it on this site I might add.

Thanks for all the research along with overseas perspective on the Bosnia crisis.


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 06:46:47 PM EST

Captain McKenna and Lance Corporal Glover (2.00 / 0)

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics /2008/03/30/2008-03-30_hillary_clintons_ lie_hits_real_sniper_vi.html


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 07:02:43 PM EST


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