Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers

by alegre, Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:19:25 PM EST

I'll tell ya folks, I thought it got ugly on these boards but this is nothing compared to how Hillary's surrogates and big-name supporters are treated by BO's followers.  Take a look at how Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee was treated during a county convention in Houston earlier today...

The following was posted as a description of the video...

U.S. Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee from Texas (D-Houston) gets booed at Texas Senate District 13 Democratic Convention on March 29, 2008. Though her congressional district is overwhelmingly in support of Senator Barack Obama for President, Congresswoman Jackson Lee is a superdelegate and supporter of Senator Hillary Clinton in the 2008 U.S. Presidential Race. When she took the stage, she had to wait a couple of minutes for the booing and Obama cheering to subside and kept remarking, "I'll wait for you to stop."

I'm sorry but given all she's done over the years to fight for things we all believe in I simply can't believe they would boo her repeatedly during a speech in which she doesn't mention Hillary once.  Seriously - they booed her while she was saying I'm proud to be an American!

Would they rather she said God damn America instead?

A friend of mine heard about how she was treated and here's what he had to say...

Jesus.  She didn't say anything abut Hillary or Obama.  She was talking issues - poverty, health care, etc. they booed her when she said she was proud to be an American.  

Damn thugs.

Ya know it doesn't matter what they do to Hillary's supporters, surrogates and super delegates - we're standing by our gal.  Take Michael Nutter - Mayor of Philadelphia and super delegate for Hillary Clinton.  I can't imagine the pressure the angry mobs have applied to him for his decision to support Hillary over BO.  In an interview with ABC News regarding the right wrong Rev. Wright, he said he would have left the church of anyone who spewed that kind of hate and bigotry from the pulpit - rather than sit there and listen for 20 years.

Here's footage of what he said next - with parts of the news article of it to follow...

Then he went on to say this...

Nutter is sticking with Clinton ...

"Certainly the opportunity to demonstrate to my 13-year-old daughter that there is a bright future for her, that a woman could get elected president of the United States , is equally compelling," he said.

"I think that we are at this historical moment," Nutter said. "Either candidate will clearly make history. But you only get to vote for one. The most important thing is winning in November, putting a Democrat in the White House."

He added, "I'm a great fan of history. I don't know that when people are struggling to pay the bills, that they ultimately conclude that, 'Well, if we can just make history with this vote, then all of my problems will be solved.' It still, for me, always comes back to performance [and] track record."

Nutter met with both senators before deciding his endorsement. He brushes aside those who say he did not back Obama because Obama endorsed someone else for mayor.

"We're talking about president of the United States . They're not running for high school class president," he said.  

"I think Sen. Clinton is the absolute best candidate for not only Philadelphia but for other cities like us, certainly for Pennsylvania [and] the United States of America , to restore our leadership role all around the world."  

In a wide-ranging interview, Nutter voiced outrage that the Democratic Party is opposed to counting the Michigan and Florida primaries because both states scheduled the elections early in the primary season, against party rules. Clinton won those primaries -- though candidates were barred from campaigning in the states and Obama was not on the ballot in Michigan.

Lee's not backing down.

Nutter's not backing down.

Murtha - no way in hell he's backing down.

Gov. Rendell - nope.

And neither am I or Hillary's millions of other supporters.

So if you think she's worth fighting for then put your $ where your heart is folks and send her as much as you can squeeze outta your budget.  She's got a deadline coming up tomorrow night and has set a fundraising goal of $3 million over 3 days.

Let the bullies and haters know you're with our gal all the way through to Denver.

DONATE NOW!

We've raised over $8,000 over the past few weeks in our online community - let's see if we can make it to $12,000 by tomorrow night eh?  If we all do our part we can get there.




Tags: President, Hillary Clinton, 2008 elections, Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, Texas, Democrats, Barack Obama (all tags)

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Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 17)

Unbelievable - I can't ever see treating one of BO's supporters that way at a party convention.

Not in a million years.

What is with those guys in Texas anyway??!


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:20:49 PM EST

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (1.00 / 1)

"Unbelievable - I can't ever see treating one of BO's supporters that way at a party convention.

Not in a million years.

What is with those guys in Texas anyway??!"

BO's supporters get treated like this everyday on this site. not saying it's out of bounds, Clinton's supporters are treated the same at Kos. but it's outrageously hypocritical to act like Obama supporters don't get bad treatment, too.

and as a Texan, i'll admit we're just fucked up that way, very sad. :(


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:27:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 8)

I'm sorry but when has any big name supporter of his turned up here and got shouted down?  Or when have I ever gone into a pro-obama diary and shouted down the author the way folks did in mine about walmart - something that barely touch upon the campaign unil I posted my tip jar?


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:31:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (1.50 / 2)

What do you mean by "shouted down the author?" People raised questions about what you wrote.  Is that somehow inappropriate?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:32:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (1.87 / 8)

Speak of the devil... ;o)


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:43:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (1.00 / 1)

I don't understand this sort of response. I am always rational and logical. I don't call anyone names and I don't like it when people call me names.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:19:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 2)

You also attempt to move the discussion to subjects that do not address the current diary.


by J Rae on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:47:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (1.00 / 1)

Fundraising is part of this diary.

Here's where it comes up:

"So if you think she's worth fighting for then put your $ where your heart is folks and send her as much as you can squeeze outta your budget.  She's got a deadline coming up tomorrow night and has set a fundraising goal of $3 million over 3 days.

Let the bullies and haters know you're with our gal all the way through to Denver.

DONATE NOW!

We've raised over $8,000 over the past few weeks in our online community - let's see if we can make it to $12,000 by tomorrow night eh?  If we all do our part we can get there."


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:50:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That policy of bringing a group of supporters (2.00 / 1)

with you to every event is what the Bush people have done in the past. From the beginning, they also exert a huge amount of control as to who they let it. (They didn't/dont ever want anyone asking unscripted questions.)

if this is where politics is going, its really contrary to democracy..

I am really hoping that Hillary gets the nomination.


Universal healthcare IS a Democratic value
It's been defeated
Obama has the best $PIN that money can buy.
by architek on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 09:56:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 10)

And by the way...

If you'd bothered to follow the link in the first line of this diary you'd have seen that I was talking about a diary of mine to which people responded with comments that had nothing to do with the subject in the diary.

Take a look at a lot of the initial comments left by you and your pals.  Tell me if ANY of them have anythng to do with the outrage discussed in the diary.  Or if you and your pals just saw one particular word and jumped on the chance to spread more of your BS about Hillary.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:46:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How dare those dirt peasants... (none / 0)

... boo their superiors.


by kraant on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 01:24:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Big names (1.00 / 1)

"I'm sorry but when has any big name supporter of his turned up here and got shouted down?"

oops, sorry, i had no idea when you wrote that no BO supporter would be treated like that you meant only big name supporters.
personally, i don't think big name supporters or average Joe's/Jill's should be shouted down.

and personally i think supporters of both candidates treat the other's supporters like shit. not good.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:38:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Read how HRC tried to hijack Credentials Committee (1.00 / 5)

Senate District 13 Convention Report, HRC splits TX Dem Party

the Credentials Committee was responsible for bringing any challenges to delegates selected on March 4th. It was suppose to consist of 7 Obama Supporters and 7 Clinton supporters, an even split. As the Credential Committee met, the Obama campaign informed his supporters of the first nasty trick by HRC to disenfranchise Obama voters.  Apparently, two Obama people on the Committee LIED, they were really HRC moles. Once selected to the Committee the two alleged Obama supporters switched their support to HRC and tilted the committee to Clinton by a margin of 9-5.

As word spread throughout the convention floor, we were absolutely stunned. As a result of the Credential Committee's coup, a large amount of challenges were brought against Obama delegates in attempt to disqualify them. We had to vote each challenge down from the Committee one by one on the convention floor. At that point, Obama supporters and HRC supporters were visibly upset and beginning to engage each other heated rhetoric. We just couldn't believe what happened in the committee. To top it off, the HRC supporters voted on the Convention floor to uphold the disenfranchisement of Obama delegates.


"we have the most radical president we have ever had, leading our country right now, and he is completely uneducable." - Seymour Hersh
by Lefty Coaster on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 06:18:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

that's why (2.00 / 4)

it's okay with BO followers to boo an older African American lady?  You mean, she has it coming?  My goodness, what has he inspired?  


by anna shane on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 06:32:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But it's OK to disenfranchise Obama delegates? (1.00 / 2)

Using deception to disenfranchise them? That is far more offensive if you ask me.


"we have the most radical president we have ever had, leading our country right now, and he is completely uneducable." - Seymour Hersh
by Lefty Coaster on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 07:58:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But it's OK to disenfranchise Obama delegates? (2.00 / 5)

Soooo... it's ok for a bunch of bullies to turn up at a DEMOCRATIC Party event, and boo and disrespect a woman who didn't once mention either of the candidates, but instead talked about the issues we ALL claim to care about?

Is THAT what you're saying here?

Because if it is then I sure and hell don't want ot be a part of a movement that goes out of its way to tear other DEMOCRATS down.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:19:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But it's OK to disenfranchise Obama delegates? (none / 0)

Actually, she was booed while giving a speech supporting Hillary. You just can't make it out in that video -- you can in the video shot by a local TV station.

By the way, if any Congressman or woman goes against the passionate wishes of 90% of their constituency, they will get booed. And quite possibly voted out of office. There's nothing wrong with that, that's American democracy.

THEY serve US, not the other way around.


by Gimmeliberty on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 09:02:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But it's OK to disenfranchise Obama delegates? (none / 0)

So they were really booing Hillary? The truth comes out.


"we have the most radical president we have ever had, leading our country right now, and he is completely uneducable." - Seymour Hersh
by Lefty Coaster on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 09:10:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But it's OK to disenfranchise Obama delegates? (none / 0)

As a delegate to one of the Texas conventions, and a first-hand witness to attempts to disenfranchise Obama delegates, I can understand why Clinton and Clinton supporters may not have received the warmest welcome.

Six of the seventeen members of our delegations had to go through unnecessary and time-consuming credentialing because their names had been challenged and removed from the rolls. All were verified and allowed to participate after an arduous process that required several extra hours at the convention. Of the eight Clinton supporters that showed up from our precinct, none had problems. I talked with members of at least four other precincts who experienced the same credential discrepancy between Obama and Clinton delegations. I won't even go into the two hours of rules challenges by Clinton supporters that delayed our vote and had no impact on the seating. Or the incidence of outright cheating in a tie-breaker for alternate slots.

For all the talk coming from the Clinton campaign about the disenfranchisement of voters in MI and FL, they certainly employed that approach as the main strategy here in Texas.  Maybe if they had spent more time insuring that their delegates showed up, and less time challenging voters, they might have done better at the convention. But this is just a microcosmic symptom of Clinton's macrocosmic problem; a failure of strategy and a failure of character.


by bookish on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 09:58:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But it's OK to disenfranchise Obama delegates? (2.00 / 2)

Soooo... it's ok for a bunch of bullies to turn up at a DEMOCRATIC Party event, and boo and disrespect a woman who didn't once mention either of the candidates, but instead talked about the issues we ALL claim to care about?

Is THAT what you're saying here?

Because if it is then I sure and hell don't want ot be a part of a movement that goes out of its way to tear other DEMOCRATS down.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:19:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But you already are a member of a movement (none / 0)

that goes out of its way to tear other DEMOCRATS down, the Hillary Clinton Campaign.


"we have the most radical president we have ever had, leading our country right now, and he is completely uneducable." - Seymour Hersh
by Lefty Coaster on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 09:15:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But you already are a member of a movement (none / 0)

game. set. match.


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 04:02:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh yeah? (none / 0)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nROKBU_Kl Zw

http://www.youtube.com/v/TEMSJ4EDbHI& ;hl=e

This one is hard to hear, but the rules are being broken:

http://www.youtube.com/v/PV6lAJ709Oc& ;hl=en

http://www.youtube.com/v/IFtZ_A2uXCw& ;hl=en


by Soitgoes on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 01:08:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh yeah? (none / 0)

In video number one, despite being led on by the woman (you?) in the video, nothing at all about what the Obama volunteer said suggests that he was trying to do anything other than provide her with the best info he could. He didn't tell her not to come to the convention. He didn't tell her not to vote for Hillary. He didn't tell her the convention had been cancelled.

In video number two, there is absolutely zero in the way of clarity as to what is happening, other than that someone's delegates aren't being seated. We don't know why, we don't know who. We have no context.

Video three is so full of ambient and other noises, I have a hard time understanding how you might possibly think anything of value could be gleaned from it.

All in all, short snippets with no context, and the commentary shut down to prevent debate. Sounds about like Clinton supporters.

Video four proves that an Obama supporter - quite young - agrees with some assertion by the videographer about rules being broken. Still no context, only soundbite.


by bookish on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 11:54:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that's why (none / 0)

"Older AA lady"?  Come on, she's not playing shuffleboard in Florida -- she's a US Representative and accountable to her constituents.  I don't think the boos are any big deal -- you need a hard scaly skin to be a politician, and I'm sure Rep. Lee can take the catcalls as well as anyone.  

Her district voted heavily for Obama and some of her constituents aren't happy with Lee's early endorsement of Sen. Clinton.  However, Rep. Lee is principled and is sticking with her candidate, so... Her refusal to withdraw her endorsement is yet another reason I respect Lee.

IMO, this diary is mountains-from-molehills.


by Twin Planets on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 02:23:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Dude, (2.00 / 4)

that's all you got? I have literally a hundred stories that would sail to the top of the Kos rec list if the names were switched.

Here's the difference: alegre offers video of a large number of Obama people with breathtakingly bad behavior, and your answer is one anecdote that is circulating though the blogs.

BTW, yes there were moles. On both sides. They tended to be in counties where their own side was badly outnumbered, and it is functionally encouraged by the party rules: delegates are not bound at county conventions. That why I saw some, too; we outnumbered Obama in raw numbers by at least 70/30. And my best mole story trumps yours, I guarantee, not just because I can give a first hand account, but because of what this guy did. dKos would organize a mob to get this guy if the campaigns were reversed.

Get over the preconception that both sides threw sharp elbows equally. If there is a reporter with any balls who will investigate my stories, even you might walk from the BHO campaign. Most ethical Dems would. But you probably won't have to face that moment of truth - the Obama Rules are in play.


by Pacific John on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 07:19:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dude, (2.00 / 4)

LISTEN UP FOLKS - John knows what the heck he's talking about here!


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:21:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dude, (none / 0)

Why  isn't this "TheFullBerry" being reported for troll rating every positive HRC comment being made?  


by miriam on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 11:41:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not just Texas, Alegre... (2.00 / 15)

It's all over the nation. It seems like wherever the Obama Campaign goes, the supporters follow... And they have the worst attitudes I've ever seen. They booed Hillary at the New Hampshire "100 Club" dinner. They bullied non-Obama people at the Nevada Caucuses. They pulled nasty dirty tricks at the Texas Caucuses. They have no respect for anyone outside their "world", which is a real pity for them... As they're turning off so many of us to their candidate.


I agree with Hillary Clinton and sricki (!!), so I fully support Barack Obama for President! :-)
by atdleft on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:28:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I was at the NH 100 club dinner (1.93 / 15)

they flew the kids in from Iowa to make a huge showing of booing Hillary.  Real class.


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:32:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at the NH 100 club dinner (1.50 / 4)

That is complete bullshit.

They did NOT fly anyone in from Iowa for that dinner.  No way.


by bawbie on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 06:01:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at the NH 100 club dinner (1.66 / 6)

thye bused them in from the airport. they had tickets and signs ready for them at the obama sign-up table. it was a totally planned operation.


by campskunk on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 06:41:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at the NH 100 club dinner (2.00 / 2)

and you're proof of this is where?

that'd be a big story, I'd assume one news org somewhere would have documented it.


by bawbie on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 07:07:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at the NH 100 club dinner (2.00 / 5)

I'm going to break the spirit of my strike here and tell you to go to dkos and look at New Hampster's diaries.  There's one there with video clips of what happened and if you'll read the diary you'll find that the diarist spent the afternoon and evening checking people in for the event.  THey know a hell of a lot more than anyone else as to what went down that night.

Open up your mind and ya just might learn a few things here ya know?


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:24:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was at the NH 100 club dinner (none / 0)

I'm willing to look at any information provided.  I just went an read every diary NewHampster posted between 1/1/08 and 1/20/08.  I saw nothing about the NH100 club dinner.  

If you could provide me a link I'd be glad to take a look at the evidence.  But I'm not going to just take your or NewHampster's word for it.  


by bawbie on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:38:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not just Texas, Alegre... (2.00 / 14)

I remember that bit in NH.  That was shameless - childish even.

A friend and I were talking about this the other day and their theory is that a lot of BO's younger followers grew up on the Net - rarely if ever having to deal face to face with people thay've verbally abused and stalked on line.

It's sad really.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:33:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, it is... (2.00 / 8)

And it's reprehensible that these Obama followers can't even practice proper etiquette. I guess they don't like it when someone else speaks instead of their own "leader".


I agree with Hillary Clinton and sricki (!!), so I fully support Barack Obama for President! :-)
by atdleft on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:45:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, it is... (2.00 / 3)

Lack of maturity to be sure.  When the world revolves around you and what you want the rest of the world just don't matter.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:29:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

IN TX, (2.00 / 3)

a group of obamaites heckled Chelsea....CHELSEA!....at San Antonio College.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: IN TX, (1.00 / 1)

Chelsea is a 28 year old career women acting as a spokesperson for a presidential campaign.  Sorry, getting heckled is part of politics.  I believe Senator Clinton called 'in the trenches' politicing "the fun part".

Granted the questions asking her opinion about how her mother handled the affair was a bit much but she handled it well.  Lets stop trying to pretend that she is still a little girl that must be protected and kept at arms length from the public and the press.  


by routerdude on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 10:05:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not just Texas, Alegre... (2.00 / 8)

It's all over the nation. It seems like wherever the Obama Campaign goes, the supporters follow... And they have the worst attitudes I've ever seen. They booed Hillary at the New Hampshire "100 Club" dinner. They bullied non-Obama people at the Nevada Caucuses. They pulled nasty dirty tricks at the Texas Caucuses. They have no respect for anyone outside their "world", which is a real pity for them... As they're turning off so many of us to their candidate.


I agree with Hillary Clinton and sricki (!!), so I fully support Barack Obama for President! :-)
by atdleft on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:28:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not just Texas, Alegre... (2.00 / 1)

I don't approve of booing, but I must point out that there are plenty of reports of Clinton people acting badly as well.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:31:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not just Texas, Alegre... (2.00 / 8)

I've seen no evidence of those "plenty of...." reports.


by Caldonia on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:36:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

all you have to do is read comments here (2.00 / 1)

i'm sorry, i don't think either group should shit on the other, but you are not being honest if you say the hassles and insults are one-sided. BITH sides trash the other. it sucks.

i went to my caucus in Texas, and there were Clinton organizers, but not Obama organizers. the Clinton-supporting caucus chair refused to answer simple questions from Obama supporters. total bullshit.

anyone, from EITHER side, that claims their side isn't throwing insults, too, is lying.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:42:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: all you have to do is read comments here (2.00 / 3)

There's a problem with your logic. Both sides were not equal. Few times in history are opposing sides similar.

I'll see your single rude-chair caucus story, and raise you 170. That's the number of precincts I  helped audit for irregularities in El Paso. We documented dozens of cases of probable fraud, including one I witnessed that I've repeated here a couple of times. (Gee, wonder why that story never leaked onto the Kos rec list;)

The number of similar allegations against us in El Paso: 0. Oh, there were the usual procedural debates about filling slots with the other sides' alternates, but nothing like we documented in our pile of affidavits.

I'd be happy to discuss this at length with a major print reporter, and can provide witness names and phone numbers for independent verification.

My conclusion was, about 20% of Obama operatives in El Paso were willing to break the law. (Many, like one I was paired with election night, are great, honest Democrats). And 20% was more than enough to change the vote in parts of the state where there was no push-back. It's my opinion that where there was a level playing field, the caucus vote was similar to the popular vote. BTW, we exceeded the popular vote, with an amazing 90% of county delegates, because we also turned out our people yesterday.


by Pacific John on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 07:34:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: all you have to do is read comments here (2.00 / 2)

LISTEN UP FOLKS - John knows what he's talking about when it comes to El Paso!


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:34:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: all you have to do is read comments here (none / 0)

Whoa, that was a weird TR.


by Pacific John on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:56:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: all you have to do is read comments here (none / 0)

unfortunately many Obama supporters think this is one long episode of "Survivor" and you are allowed to do what you want, when you want; whatever needs to be said or done to get your opponent "voted off the island".  yes, as an educator I've heard, discussed, and tried to direct students to a more distinguished and ethical understanding and work with in the system.  Many are completely brainwashed in pop culture and really can't apply ethics or decorum to this situation.
It is extremely distressing as an educator and I've tried to point them to the more accomplished, ethical, and articulate Obama and Clinton supporters.
by kfive on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 01:47:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not just Texas, Alegre... (2.00 / 4)

If so, let's see some links.

Video or a MSM source will do.


by bellarose on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:53:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (1.25 / 4)

What's your prediction for March fundraising for Clinton and Obama?  Do you think Clinton will raise enough to pay the $8.7 million in debts she has from the primary?

Remember, under the campaign finance law, she can't use any of the money raised for the general election to pay primary bills.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:30:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 4)

yep keep on doing that.   keep pushing them more and more.  
try to humiliate them more and more.  I dare you.

by JoeySky18 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:50:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 0)

I don't get it. Isn't this a place to discuss politics?  The diarist asked people to give money to Clinton. Now I'm asking them how they think the money is shaking out this month.  I ask Clinton supporters I know about this all the time and we have perfectly reasonable discussions.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 07:14:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 1)

Ok fine - just let us know when you post something in the true interst of a serious and respectful discussion.  So far all I've seen is insults and nastiness from you.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:36:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (none / 0)

I really do not think that I have been insulting in any way.  I certainly have not called anyone names. I used to be a Clinton supporter and some of my best friends are Clinton supporters. My mom is a Clinton supporter.

But I am used to vigorous back and forth about ideas. I train people to think critically in print and on their feet (at least that's part of my job). And this is a political blog where people, I would think, hash out ideas.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:54:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (none / 0)

Totally off subject? or did I accidently get into a different diary?


by J Rae on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:58:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 0)

God help America if somebody gets into trouble for booing their local politician.

God help America if a politician can't take being heckled.

(especially if that politician has a reputation for being tough with her own members of staff - all politics is local)


by My Ob on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 06:03:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is she tough with her staff? (none / 0)

Tough and fair? or just tough no matter. That's what you imply. Just curious.
by Xanthe on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 07:24:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is she tough with her staff? (none / 0)

I am not saying that the reputation is true - it may be a lie/undeserved.

However, as I mentioned all politics is local and the people in that audience may have been aware that her staff turnover rate has been the highest of any member of Congress, according to the Capitol Hill weekly Roll Call. According to the local press that is because she is a brusque and imperious boss - a pattern dating from the time she was  serving on the Houston City Council.
http://www.houstonpress.com/1997-02-20/n ews/what-s-driving-miss-shelia/

If I were to boo a politician a mean employer is the one  I would boo - sort of pay back on behalf of the little people.


by My Ob on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 05:40:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is she tough with her staff? (none / 0)

Ouch.  Tough article, though I don't know the paper's affiliation.  But as a staff person for many years, I get it.  

I doubt she was being booed for that though.  

thanks for the interesting article.


by Xanthe on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 10:49:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is she tough with her staff? (none / 0)

Speaking of affiliations and staffers, the same poll of staffers that voted Hillary brainiest member of Senate voted Sheila Jackson-Lee 2nd meanest House member.
http://www.washingtonian.com/articles/me diapolitics/1666.html

(Barack received more votes for "rising star" than all the other contenders combined)


by My Ob on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 11:16:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The rising star thing (none / 0)

doesn't move me at all.  It can go to show that he has been given the mantle - he has been chosen by the party - in other words, politics as usual. Though that is not his theme.

but as I've said before - I will certainly vote for him in GE.  


by Xanthe on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 11:39:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (none / 0)

SO you have no problem with the way BO's followers treated her then eh?


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:37:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (none / 0)

I work for a Congressman, and I don't.

Representatives are not on a pedestal above their constituents. They work FOR their constituents. And let me tell you, if my boss does something that pisses them off, they'll let us know in no uncertain terms.

And you know what? That's how it SHOULD be.


by Gimmeliberty on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 09:11:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ripe for a Primary Challenger!! (none / 0)

hell's yeah!


If I had to make a prediction right now, I'd say Barack Obama is going to be the next president.
by Andre X on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 06:04:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Did you see the video of Obama Thugs.... (2.00 / 5)

trying to convince Texas Hillary caucus delegates that they were supposed to vote for Obama?

It was so outrageous I couldn't believe it.  There are all sorts of reports like this out of Texas.

You can tell a person by the company they keep Mr. Obama.


by Shazone on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 06:24:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did you see the video of Obama Thugs.... (2.00 / 2)

Yeah I saw it - that caller was absolutely shameless.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:39:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did you see the video of Obama Thugs.... (none / 0)

Same thing happened to me the other way around. I got an email from the Clinton campaign informing me that I was a Clinton delegated and expected to be at the County Convention voting for Hillary.

I pretty much ignored it.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 10:58:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What Effrontery! (2.00 / 1)

A politician is booed at a party gathering.

This has never happened in human history before has it?


"we have the most radical president we have ever had, leading our country right now, and he is completely uneducable." - Seymour Hersh
by Lefty Coaster on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 06:44:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 3)

At our county convention yesterday we had TWO Obama superdelgates speak to our caucus.

They got nothing but respect and applause.  There were some quiet jeers and words thrown out when Obama's or Clinton's names were mentioned but they were mostly under the breath type of thing.

Those that tried stuff like that on the video were shouted down by Obama and Clinton supporters alike.

What happened to Rep. Jackson-Lee is dispicable and detestable.  I'm sure the other un-pledged Super-delegates will appreciate this video.  I'll be sending a copy to the other 250+ Texas Super's that are uncommitted at the moment and see how they feel about Rep. Jackson-Lee was treated.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 07:02:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 0)

What exactly are the uncommitted Super-delegates supposed to do with the video? are they supposed to get upset that Rep. Jackson-Lee was booed and therefore support Clinton? Maybe support Rep. Jackson-Lee as in defend her in the press?


by poserM on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 07:25:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 0)

Frankly, I would think that it would bother superdelegates less than having Mark Penn saying that Richardson's endorsement didn't matter and Carville calling him a Judas.  When it comes from people close to the candidate, other politicians are more likely to see the tone as linked to the candidate.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 07:36:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (none / 0)

That can not be further from the truth.  Penn and Carville are paid agitators (my term), it's what they do.  The un-pledged delegates or Super's are not overly influenced by them.

They do notice how the supporters of one of the Candidates act, and how the campaigns react to them, and how they control their supporters.

If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't be here or calling for Clinton to drop/out, dead, or go to hell (in general-not specifically you) or trying to influence your circle and go out and 'show' support for your candidate.

Calls have already gone out to Obama himself, and we shall see what he does to address this act.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:10:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (none / 0)

My guess is he'll remain silent on this as he has re so many other incidents.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:45:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (none / 0)

So now if some of his supporters in a district in Texas, where Obama has the majority, express their disapproval of their representative for supporting a different candidate by booing, he should do something about it?

I can't begin to express how ridiculous that sounds to me.


Republicans = Borrow and Squander
by GFORD on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 10:44:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (none / 0)

They were practicing their right to redress their elected official.

Who happens to be a super delegate.

Damn democracy.


"I hope the two wings of the Democratic Party may flap together." - William Jennings Bryan
by pinche tejano on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 12:23:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama's Suporters (2.00 / 12)

Will make it very difficult for many Clinton supporters to "fall in line" should he be the nominee


Voices in the Wilderness
by Wiseprince on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:21:56 PM EST

Re: Obama's Suporters (2.00 / 10)

Not this one.  I'm a Democrat through and through.  I may not be as enthusiastic about my support but I'll definitely vote for whoever our nominee is.

After all, I'll be following my candidate's fine example ;o)


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:24:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Suporters (2.00 / 3)

And so will I but it would be nice if BO supporters could stop going out of their way to piss off less committed HRC supporters who may have a hard time getting over their anger.

david


by giusd on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 06:40:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Suporters (none / 0)

I can't wait for HRC to campaign for Obama.


"we have the most radical president we have ever had, leading our country right now, and he is completely uneducable." - Seymour Hersh
by Lefty Coaster on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 09:18:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Suporters (none / 0)

That's really good to hear, Alegre. You have a lot of sway on this site, and if BO pulls it off, it will be great to have you supporting him.


by grover738 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 10:04:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Suporters (none / 0)

I'm really glad to see this post.

I look forward to your diaries going after McCain come the GE regardless who is in. :)


by routerdude on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 10:12:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: troll rate (none / 0)

Another astute troll by the ever judicious TheFullBerry.


On to the Convention Floor!
by oh puhleeze on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 03:11:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 2)

that's too sad. i love Sheila Jackson Lee.

but "booing" is hardly new to politicians. as long as they didn't shout insults they were within their rights. we should be able to get feedback to our elected officials. sometimes, audience response is all we've got.

but i wouldn't have chosen this way myself. while i'm troubled by Lee's support of Clinton despite her hideous campaign tactics, Lee has a lifetime of good work we should all honor.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:24:46 PM EST

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (1.00 / 10)

Yeah, why don't you go ahead and send her more money?  She has lots of debts and she can't pay them with money from general election contributions. Her big donors can't give anymore for the primary, so she needs you small donors to pay those poor folks who did work for her and are waiting to be paid. Hopefully none of them lose their businesses while they are waiting to get paid.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/030 8/9259.html


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:24:56 PM EST

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (none / 0)

Why downrate me? The diary asked people to send money to Hillary. That was part of the subject of the diary.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 07:15:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 9)

pathetic.


"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." Plato
by canadian gal on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:26:27 PM EST

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (1.28 / 7)

So your example of "getting ugly" is when people point out that HRC was on the Walmart board and could have done something about their policies then?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:27:41 PM EST

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 7)

what is more ugly is Obama supporters never talk about Michelle's tie with Walmart.  

Or how much Obama received money from lobbyists while he keep saying that he never take their money.


by JoeySky18 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:35:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 0)

Michelle didn't have a "tie" with Wal-Mart. She was on the board of a company that sold stuff to Wal-Mart. A lot of companies sell things to Wal-Mart - by that standard, I have a "tie" to Wal-Mart because I sold Boy Scout popcorn in front of one when I was a kid.

Hillary was on Wal-Mart's board. No comparison.


by amiches on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:45:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (none / 0)

So she didn't do ANYTHING about Walmart's policy's?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/20/us/pol itics/20walmart.html?_r=1&pagewanted =2&oref=slogin

She didn't insist and convince them to build eco-friendly buildings?

"Under her watch, the advisory group drew up elaborate plans. Consumers would bring in used motor oil and batteries for recycling. Suppliers would reduce the size of their packaging. And Wal-Mart would build stores with energy-saving features.

Wal-Mart executives put much of the program into place. In 1993, for example, they opened an experimental "eco-store" in Kansas, with skylights and wooden beams from forests that had not been clear cut.

One executive derided it as "Hillary's store" because it was more expensive to build than the average Wal-Mart, but several of its features, like the skylights that cut energy bills by reducing the need for artificial lighting, were widely copied across the industry."

She didn't push for women to be put on Walmart's board?

"John E. Tate, who served as a director with Mrs. Clinton from 1988 to 1992, recalled that by her third board meeting Mrs. Clinton had announced "that you can expect me to push on issues for women. You know that. I have a reputation of trying to improve the status of women generally, and I will do it here."

She didn't use her position to help influence business and help education in Arkansas?

"For Mrs. Clinton, being a director at Wal-Mart gave her access to several of the state's most powerful business executives. In the early 1980s, for example, Mr. Walton was instrumental in building support for a corporate tax program, pushed by Mrs. Clinton, that financed a major education overhaul in Arkansas, a signal achievement of her husband's governorship."

Was she smart enough to use her position to influence policy?  Did she "play the game" to get what she needed/wanted in the long term?

Don't we all?  Don't we all let the boss's comments and/or behavior get a pass sometimes, because he's the boss?

How did the other Walmart board people feel?

""She was not an outspoken person on labor, because I think she was smart enough to know that if she favored labor, she was the only one," Mr. Tate said. "It would only lessen her own position on the board if she took that position."

Did you think you could wheel out Walmart like it would hurt her?  Silly you.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 07:35:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (none / 0)

So it was ok that she didn't speak out on labor policies because she was outnumbered?  I think some leadership on that could have mattered. When NO ONE speaks up on a board, then the others think the policies are fine and dandy.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 09:18:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (none / 0)

that's a pretty funny comment from an Obama supporter considering how many times he avoided the controversial subject and took the expedient "present" vote.  And his self disclosed regret over the Terry Schiavo vote.  Why didn't he speak up then and let others know where he stood on that issue?
come on...........
by kfive on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 01:54:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wally World (none / 0)

I read that NYT article too, I don't see that HRC could have done much more than she did. You've got to pick your battles. If she'd have gone to bat for the unions, she'd have gotten nowhere, and possibly lost the standing she did have that helped get the positive things you listed above done.

I'm an Obama supporter who can't stand Wal-Mart, but attacking HRC for her time on the board is weak.


by grover738 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 10:09:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (1.50 / 8)

So her constituents aren't allowed to express their displeasure at her decisions?

God forbid they criticize Queen Hillary the Inevitable.


by amiches on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:29:18 PM EST

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 6)

There are more civilized way to express your decision without degrading a human being.


by JoeySky18 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:47:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (none / 0)

Undoubtedly, but she works for them, not the other way around. She's not obligated to support the candidate her constituents support, but folks shouldn't whine when she gets some flak for her decision.


by amiches on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:52:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 0)

And no doubt they may express their displeasure in a much more civil way next time she's up for re-election.


by TheSilverMonkey on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 07:26:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sheila Jackson Lee Booed by BO's Followers (2.00 / 1)

Her constituents can voice thier displeasure with her or her policies, when she or they are engaging each other at one of her speeches/office(s).

NOT when representing the Democratic Party or speaking on behalf of the Party to Party DELEGATES/Officals.

That's right.  ALL Delegates/Alternates elected at the Primary caucus are Party officials.  What you just witnessed on that video is Obama supporters WHO ARE PARTY OFFICALS (however temporary) booing another Democrat at an event of Democratic Party election/caucus.

What happened to party Unity?  I guess it's only when supporting their half of the Party.  So far two responses from Super-delegates from Texas.  I have sent an addn'l query to them asking them if I can re-print their responses to the Video.  The inital reaction in general?  There will be a whole host of new Texas Super-delegates announcing very quickly.

Great job Obama Democrats.  Great job.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 07:45:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hi, Alegre. I just returned from a long (2.00 / 9)

overdue vacation to Cancun, Mexico. No TV. No newspapers. No internet. Just sunshine, torquoise oceans, and beer. I needed it big-time! Now I'm back and ready to donate some more to Hillary. I didn't spend everything I had allotted, so Hill gets the rest! BTW, the locals I talked to love Hillary! They are really rooting for her to win...


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:30:54 PM EST

Re: Hi, Alegre. I just returned from a long (1.09 / 11)

Yes, do go ahead and donate so HRC can pay those poor folks who extended credit to her campaign.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 05:33:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hi, Alegre. I just returned from a long (2.00 / 0)

The reality is that HRC owes a lot of money.  Why would you downrate a comment about that?  


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 07:16:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

GOD (2.00 / 1)

this guy has quickly become the rudest, biggest jerk on this site.  

quite the feat that!

guess he's been practicing his annoying low skills for years.

quite a guy.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:20:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GOD (2.00 / 1)

I'm not a guy. I'm a middle aged woman who is a lifelong Democrat and feminist. I have worked in feminist grassroots organizations - race crisis centers and battered women's shelters - but now support them via donations. I am union member who used to be an official in my union.

And I would hope that you would be able to talk about campaign finance, as the diary did bring up donating to Clinton.  

And I don't think I've been rude. The diary called for people to donate to HRC. My point has been that she does really need the money.  Why would you want to limit speech about that?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 08:59:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GOD (none / 0)

you arent  just rude in this diary, you are always rude.

you are insulting, you obviously have Clinton "issues" and it saddens and depresses me that you are union.

The idea that you actually believe that people would buy your passive aggressive defense of your repeated goading makes me guess its not a AFL union.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 09:28:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GOD (none / 0)

which union?  I'm just curious.  


by searchforsolidarity on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 10:05:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GOD (none / 0)

which union?  I'm just curious.  


by searchforsolidarity on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 10:06:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hi, Alegre. I just returned from a long (1.00 / 2)

So the locals in Cancun "count", but latte-