MyDD :: Michigan and Florida re-vote or we vote for McCain

Michigan and Florida re-vote or we vote for McCain

by cpa1a, Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 09:57:41 AM EST

Hey, this will be a short diary but one that needs to be heard. I will vote for the Democratic nominee, regardless who it is, but only if I know the process was at least semi-legitimate. That means either the DNC finds a way for a real re-vote in Florida and Michigan, not a caucus, or I vote for McCain.

I am sick and tired of hearing from these spineless Senators who shivered and ran from the Republicans and allowed them to get away with murder, even when they were in the majority, or the incredulous pundits who look at issues with the depth of three year olds to tell me that Hillary should give up. Obama has the tiniest of leads and where the hell do they come off to try to manipulate the election anymore than Obama already has with his lies and injecting of race.

So that's it. Either have a regular re-vote in the primary or I and I bet many other Democrats will switch and vote for McCain if Obama steals this nomination anymore than he has.

While I am here I would like you to read a diary I wrote last night, too late for recommends, entitled the Immaculate Election at http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/3/28/2210 43/625

Remember, we don't owe Barack Obama a damn thing and we don't even owe Black Americans or White Americans or Hispanic Americans anything other than to give them the best candidate who will help get us out of our severe problems, created by Ronald Reagan and the Republicans the same way William Jefferson Clinton helped our country avoid the insolvency created Ronald Reagan George Bush and those idea gushing Republicans.

We owe the people of Florida and Michigan to have their votes count. If the Democratic Party turns into something that resembles the Republican Party by cheating to give Obama the nomination, then I'd rather vote for the guy who is honest and has experience, unlike the race injecting liar, Barack Obama. And who the hell wants Jeremiah Wright to have an ear of a president of the United States. Notice how well Barack Obama learned how to inject race from his uncle Jeremiah.

Redo Florida and Michigan and I'll be back with the Democrats. To Barack Obama, Tom Daschle, Nancy Pelosi and Howard Dean, you want a 50 state strategy, you better make sure it happens in all 50 states and don't you tell me what America is all about if you can all stoop to the level of Barack Obama. You have no idea how pissed off Democrats are.

We are disgusted with "Too Cute By A Half" Obama and his willing stooges.

Poll

Votes: 32
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Tags: Florida, Michigan, re-vote, disenfranchising (all tags)

Permalink :: 71 Comments :: Post a Comment

spare me... (2.00 / 0)

MI and FL got the vote they wanted. They wanted an early vote and were willing to give up their delegates to get it. I don't remember seeing people taking to the streets so that their primary would not be moved up. Delegates from MI and FL will be seated at the convention (in a symbolic way) don't worry.

Making a issue out of this is only a Clinton stratagy move so spare us your outrage.

by JoeCoaster on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:05:53 AM EST

Did you take to the streets over Ralph Nader (1.50 / 4)

for splitting the vote in 2000? Once the imbeciles who voted for him realized what happened, Bush and Cheney kidnapped the damn country and raped it over and over again.

It does not matter what happened then and who was paying attention. Howard Dean hated the Clintons and he took out two of her strongest states for Obama.

If you are willing to let that happen, you will vote alone, I am voting for McCain. If there is a re-vote, that is not a caucus, I will vote for the nominee. You don't like that, do something to bring fairness back in this Immaculate Election that never should have happened.

I am not like the hateful and disgusting Obama supporters who have followed their disgusting candidate who gave them permission and even egged them on not to vote for Hillary. I will vote for Obama, even though I can't stand him, if the vote is made fairer be re-voting our two biggest states.

How stupid can you be to let those states go to McCain? If Obama steals the nomination, he will never win because he has injected so much hate with his injecting phony racial issues and his disenfranchising of Florida, Michigan and those in the caucus states.

Get used to it, he will never be president unless we are all together and we aren't even close.

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:36:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did you take to the streets over Ralph Nader (2.00 / 0)

Troll rated for "disgusting candidate" - you've stepped over the line, and made any discussion of your view on the revote worthless.

by interestedbystander on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:41:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did you take to the streets over Ralph Nader (2.00 / 0)

Go ahead and vote for McCain, Troll. I won't be party to your thuggish tactics.

by Cycloptichorn on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:57:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

All the king's horses (2.00 / 2)

and all the king's men couldn't make me vote for a Republican again. But my outrage has nothing to do with a Clinton strategy. I thought that Florida should have had a re-vote in 2000, and let the chips fall where they may. I have believed since then that the progressive movement and the Democratic party stood for counting every vote. When Kerry conceded with nary a peep about the voting irregularities in Ohio in 2004, that faith was shaken. We have had eight years of George W. Bush enabled by one stolen election, and one very questionable one. And in all that time, not one damned Democrat has done one damned thing to try to fix the voting process. If we go into the general election with a nominee that won that nomination by silencing the voices of voters in two large states, a lot of people are going to question the legitimacy of the process. I have seen numerous diaries and comments on progressive blogs railing against the unfairness of convicted felons not being able to get their voting rights restored. But now we have many of those same people arguing that "rules are rules", therefore it is perfectly fine to deny the votes of millions of people because they didn't storm the state capitol with assault rifles to keep them from breaking the rules. We have a DNC chairman(who I used to have a lot of respect for) who stupidly and shortsightedly stripped all the delegates instead of just half, and who hasn't shown any leadership in trying to remedy the situation. And we have approximately half of the Democratic party cheering him on. And I'm not interested in a "symbolic" anything. The people in third world dictatorship's get "symbolic" votes. But that doesn't make them legitimate.

by georgiapeach on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:04:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great Comment (none / 0)

Let's put their backs against the wall now and force re-votes. We are not being unreasonable. It is not like we are asking for re-votes in all the caucus states. Hillary won Texas, What does this idiotic caucus game have in common with the future vote in the general election, ZERO.

I will vote for Obama but not if Howard Dean doesn't stop this deal he made with Obama to screw Hillary. No re-vote, I vote for McCain and get everyone I know to do the same.

Obama wants to be cute and conniving, well this one is for him and Howard Dean and for all the super-delegate hypocrites who want the election to be based on the will of the people and yet they will go against their own states votes. Besides, without the re-vote he is dead in the water because the election will look like a put up job.

And what about Ted Kennedy who tried to overturn the elected delegates in 1980 when it was obvious Carter would lose to Reagan. Well, it is obvious if this charade goes on, there will be no Democrat in the White House in 2009 and all the damage Bush has done will only get worse. That's what happens when a few people try to kidnap the Party and disenfranchise millions. When you are dealing with kidnappers you have to use extreme measures and when all you are asking for is fairness, you cannot be wrong.

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:54:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I can understand your (none / 0)

need to protest by sitting out the election, but not the threat to vote for McCain. Especially if you are in a swing state. I'm not even ready to say unequivocally that I won't vote for Obama. That possibility is becoming more remote all the time, and I may not make a final decision until Nov. 2, if he is the nominee. But if the Democratic party doesn't allow Fla. and Mich. to weigh in on a primary this close, they might as well sit down and shut up on voter's rights issues, because they will never have a leg to stand on again.

by georgiapeach on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 01:12:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michigan and Florida re-vote or we vote for Mc (none / 0)

Can you please point me to any post or diary of yours before the MI and FL primary detailing your outrage.

by interestedbystander on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:14:19 AM EST

When it was happening, I wasn't paying attention. (2.00 / 1)

I was on vacation in Florida and when friends told me their vote won't count, I was so not in election mode, it didn't sink in.

Are you saying that you support disenfranchising two of the largest states in the country, swing states, necessary for the general election. Are you out of your mind?

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:25:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When it was happening, I wasn't paying attenti (2.00 / 1)

Ah now I get it - you were on vacation and didn't realise it was a big issue, but now it's so important that you will vote Republican if you don't get your own way. Funny, having checked your comment history here and at DKos you were certainly aware of the issue, but didn't seem that concerned about it. I wonder what could have happened in the meantime to change your mind? On a completely different topic, I note you have been intensely anti-Obama for a long time.

by interestedbystander on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:32:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh! I am not allowed to be anti-Obama? (none / 0)

That's true over at the Dailykos, not here.

Yes, I want to get my way but at least my includes voting for Obama if he legitimately gets the nomination, unlike many of those level headed patriots over at the DailyKos hate machine. I am so glad mydd is here, as decent people need a place to get the news too. That other site has become a joke.

Howard Dean and Barack Obama have kidnapped the party and they are disenfranchising millions to do it. My way is the fair way. How in any logical way, can ignoring 2 states from the alleged 50 state strategy, because Howard Dean has a bug up his ass for Obama, how can that be right? Do you think that the man who preached a 50 state strategy is being honest now about eliminating Florida and Michigan as if those states don't exist? Do you think that is a smart strategy to do to swing states where the citizens of those states had nothing to do with when the primaries are held?

Furthermore, who the hell is Howard Dean to tell those states when they have to have their primary and who the hell is he to exact such a draconian punishment that could lose us the election. What is this, kindergarten? My god, he should have put those states in the back of the convention hall and not allow them to have cookies with their milk. He has become a stupid joke perhaps the guy wgho yahooed his way at of the 04 nomination, is a little nasty and a little unbalanced.

I reiterate, no re-votes and President McCain will make Howard Dean and Barack Obama look like the petty, sneaky and disgusting politicians they are! You are pushing those of us who demand fairness away.

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 01:09:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh! I am not allowed to be anti-Obama? (none / 0)

Of course you're allowed to be anti-Obama - I'm just checking that your outrage about disenchantment is selective.

by interestedbystander on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 02:58:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh! I am not allowed to be anti-Obama? (none / 0)

By disenchantment i do of course mean disenfranchisement.

by interestedbystander on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 02:58:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michigan and Florida re-vote or we vote for Mc (2.00 / 1)

"Michigan counts for nothing," said Hillary Clinton.

by vermontprog on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:14:49 AM EST

Re: Michigan and Florida re-vote or we vote for Mc (2.00 / 0)

And, by the way, as any Banana Republic president will be happy to point out, Hillary didn't do so well in Michigan. Garnering 55% of the vote while running unopposed doesn't speak very well of a candidate.

by vermontprog on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:16:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michigan and Florida re-vote or we vote for Mc (2.00 / 1)

Really, that would give here all the delegates. That's a lot better than the disenfranchising caucuses.

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:22:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

where is the link for this (none / 0)

just in case you made it up or are taking it out of context.

Maybe she said,

"Michigan will count for nothing, unless there is a re-vote."

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:19:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: where is the link for this (2.00 / 0)

Except she didn't.

by interestedbystander on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:35:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Here you go. (2.00 / 0)

You go right ahead and vote for McCain.

"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis

by MBNYC on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:15:09 AM EST

Logistics are not a reason to vote McCain (2.00 / 1)

No person who seeks to further progressive ideology should even suggest the possibility of voting for McCain. Those supporting revotes in MI/FL have valid points, but valid points do not always win the day. There are logistical problems with holding revotes that may keep them from occuring. The FL legislature has already conceded that the possibility of a revote is essentially off the table because of these problems. Those opposing a revote in MI bring up the valid point as well that current proposals plan on disqualifying a demographic that skews heavily towards Obama--people who voted in the Republican primary who had no reason to think a Dem contest would later be held or that they woudl be barred from participating in it b/c of their previous vote. Under these conditions it is understandable that the candidate whom the procedures would prejudice in the elections is reluctant to agree to the plan. Hillary would do the same thing if the rules proposed to disqualify a demographic likely to go for her as well--say, women or Latinos. Whether you think that these reasons are sufficient to stop a revote, you should recognize that they are legitimate concerns. To threaten to vote for McCain b/c of the party's logistical inability to revote MI/FL is illogical if you care about progressive values, liberal SCOTUS justices, ending Iraq, and protecting a woman's right to choose.

by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:22:02 AM EST

I mojoed your reply (none / 0)

but I disagree with you. The worst and most phony people in the world are politicians. I don't believe logistics is a problem at all. I have no doubt that a new primary can be run within 2 months, or by the beginning of June and I betthe turnout will be huge. Dean did this to screw Hillary because Hillary supporters did not want him the be the DNC Chair.

Do you know what Howard Dean said about the Obama praises of Reagan. First, he acknowledged they were praises and then he said that anyone can say anything they want to. He didn't say that Ronald Reagan almost bankrupted this country, he told us his astute political wife (cough) said that if that is how Obama feels then that is what he should say. Dean made the punishment happen and since Dean is an agent of Obama, the election would be illegitimate if Florida and Michigan are not re-voted.

But, even moreso, how can we go into a general election with Americans from two of the largest swing states pissed off as all get out? They are throwing away the election anyway. This is not my Democratic Party and if it allows this travesty to happen, Obama will and should go down and he will be gone forever.

You Don't Fuck With The Vote

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:56:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I mojoed your reply (none / 0)

"I don't believe logistics is a problem at all.'

That's what all the legislators in FL said. Even if you think politicians are phoney, many of the politicians who cited logistical problems with a revote were vocal and public supporters of Clinton. What incentive would they have to lie about that? If anything, they would have an incentive to push for a revote DESPITE knowing that it would be a logistical nightmare.

"This is not my Democratic Party and if it allows this travesty to happen, Obama will and should go down and he will be gone forever."

Would you feel the same way about Clinton if she were somehow to win nomination w/out the FL/MI delegates being seated? If not, how do you justify that given that:

1) She agreed with the sanctions when they were first imposed.

Her agent Harold Ickes was a party to drafting the sanctions
She did not change her mind and question the sanctions until after she knew she'd won the states in question.

Her current position on seating the delegates is clearly based on political self interest and not higminded ideals about letting people vote. Obama would be saying the same things she is now if he were in the position to benefit from the unofficial votes in Fl/MI.

by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:15:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

McCain thanks you n/t (none / 0)

by parahammer on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:24:30 AM EST

No, McCain thanks Obama (none / 0)

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:57:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michigan and Florida re-vote or we vote for Mc (2.00 / 0)

I am totally with you. And I sent back my DNC survey with words: Count the voters of Michigan and Florida or you won't be able to count on my vote in November written with a black magic marker all over it. And I meant every word.

by Fleaflicker on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:27:34 AM EST

Me too!! (2.00 / 1)

Who the fuck cares what manipulations Howard Dean did for his guy Obama. I care about fairness not punishment. It doesn't even matter what the legislators of Florida and Michigan did.

You don't fuck with the Vote!

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:42:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Me too!! (2.00 / 2)

Floridians are blaming Clinton:

Tampa Bay.com

The Hillary Clinton campaign has yet to express any interest in negotiating a solution to Florida's delegate mess, but a couple key Barack Obama staffers - delegate operations director Jeff Berman and political director Matt Nugen called state Democratic chairwoman Karen Thurman to talk about possible ways to give Florida a voice in the nomination. "We're just looking for solutions," said Obama spokesman Bill Burton.

St Pete Times

To hear her campaign tell it, Hillary Rodham Clinton is fighting the good fight to give Florida Democrats a say in the presidential primary, while Barack Obama is blocking her noble efforts. "This new strategy of denying and disempowering and disenfranchising the voters in Florida and Michigan is, I believe, a terrible mistake,'' Bill Clinton said in Indiana on Monday. "Hillary believes their votes should be counted." Nice try. But with every passing day, Sen. Clinton looks like the one most likely to disenfranchise Florida Democrats, not Sen. Obama. At a time when finding a real solution to the stalemate has grown critical, Team Clinton continues bellowing about the two options most everyone in Florida knows are impossible: counting the results from the Jan. 29 primary or holding an entirely new primary election by June. At least the Obama campaign, which for so long was dismissive of the Florida results, is opening the door for viable solutions to this primary debacle.

There are more, but these should be sufficient.

by Becky G on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:35:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Me too!! (2.00 / 0)

OK, here's Orlando Sentinel also (dated Mar. 26):

On Tuesday, the Clinton campaign continued to push for either fully counting the Jan.29 result -- which the DNC has blocked -- or holding a new vote in Florida, which state officials have dismissed. Some Clinton supporters in Florida want each delegate counted as half a vote. Kirk Wagar, a Coconut Grove attorney who is one of Obama's top fundraisers, blamed Clinton for not compromising. "We've been willing to do something that, frankly, even goes to her benefit, but we can't negotiate with ourselves."

This points ou tthat some FL Clinton supporters want the 1/2 vote plan. Also Obama's people want to negotiate but clinton won't. It's becoming a pattern in these articles that Clinton's people want it their way or the highway. Others will accept plans other than Clinton's but she won't allow it. How can anyone keep claiming that she is trying to make sure all the votes count when it's so obvious this is all about her winning?

by Becky G on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:29:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michigan and Florida re-vote or we vote for Mc (2.00 / 0)

Go vote for McCain then. We will win this thing without you.

Also just FYI, people don't like to have ultimatums put to them.

Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius

by Blue Neponset on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:31:37 AM EST

Is that a fact? (2.00 / 0)

That's all I've heard for months on the Dailykos from Obama supporters. At least my ultimatem is based on fairness, Obama's is based on arrogance and greed.

You have no chance wihtout us and what we are asking for is at the base of democracy, to count every vote.

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:39:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Then we will lose (none / 0)

If you think the MI & FL primaries are more important than a Democratic Attorney General and a competent FEMA director then I don't want your "help" in the GE. We will do the best we can without you.

Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius

by Blue Neponset on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:58:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The difference is: (none / 0)

You are looking to screw Americans, millions of them out of voting for what reason, while I am look to include everyone. How can you be right? Doesn't that worry you or are you ready to let Obama think for you too?

As I said above, Dean should have put them in the back of the convention hall and taken away their cookies, he had no damn right whatsoever to disenfranchise two states. This is a farce and only Dean and Obama will be blamed and hated like Nader is now.

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 01:16:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am not right (none / 0)

There is no right answer. If you truly feel so strongly about the FL/MI Primaries that you are willing to vote for McCain then good for you. I think that is a short-sighted and stupid opinion to have but you certainly are entitled to it. I look forward to completely ignoring you when Clinton finally drops out of the race.

Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius

by Blue Neponset on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 01:42:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Shouldn't Obama have to be (none / 0)

subject to the voters of Florida and Michigan? Shouldn't we know if they will vote for him?

Hey, I don't want to be in this position but all I can say is, and I am saying it to you and you can pass it on, if the right thing is done we'll be there for the Democratic nominee. The party has been kidnapped by Howard Dean and I want his petty revenge fight with the Clintons over and it should not have been brought into this nominating campaign. I really don't care what Obama thinks about this because he is a candidate, not the electorate. He has no say. Everyone must vote, something you are against and you will have to live with when he gets his head handed to him and rest assured, he will.

So, after the election I will consider your input as much as I consider what people who voted for Nader think.

This is what Howard Dean and Barack Obama have brought to the Democratic Party.

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 02:26:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is that a fact? (none / 0)

Yep. That's the problem. Obama expects that we have to come around because so much is at stake. As usual, he's passing the blame onto someone other than himself--he "cares" so much that he's trying to frame it to place the blame on the voters. He seems ignorant of the fact that the one who needs to come around "because so much is at stake" is himself.

The decision as to whether we have a fair election and liberal policies and courts is up to him, and frankly, all his delaying tactics suggest that he doesn't care about it much.

by RobinLB on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:19:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is that a fact? (none / 0)

Why vote for McBush when you could at least vote for one of the others?

I suspect you'll vote for McSame regardless.

The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.

by Liberal Avenger on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:02:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A DailyKos Tactic (none / 0)

You are using Obama tactics in implying that I am really a Republican in disguise.

That is what Barack Obama, Jeremiah Wright and Michelle Obama have brought to this nomination race: hate, the injection of race, deception, arrogance and now disenfranchisement. I wouldn't be surprised if Obama talks to Wright every day because he seems so much like him...but Obama is stealth about it.

If we were on the Dailykos you could hide my entire diary or comments. That would make you happy.

Instead, why don't you too demand re-votes. How can that be wrong? How can fair votes be wrong? It may not help your candidate but are you really willing to chop off two states? Believe me, all those little caucuses that Obama has won, in very Republican states, will not be enough to beat McCain, Take away Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida and Michigan and you better be ready to $20 trillion of National Debt and war that never ends. You will be responsible for not getting on board and forcing the right thing, re-votes.

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 01:27:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A DailyKos Tactic (none / 0)

Hey....you're the one who says you'll vote for Bush's third term.

Why don't I "demand?" Do you really think the GOP legislatures of FL and MI give a damn about what I demand? But they might listen to you if you threaten to withold your vote for McSame.

The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.

by Liberal Avenger on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 02:51:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh Come On (none / 0)

You know if Dean and Obama were behind this, the re-vote planning would start right away. I would never vote McCain if it was only up to those legislatures. Carville and Nelson want to start getting the money together and with all the money Obama is raising, it would be easy for him to finance half the re-vote.

You know, this will just not be legitimate until the two biggest swing states vote, especially with Obama's anemic portfolio of wins which are laced with unrepresentative caucuses in Republican states. How can you not want these states to re-vote? Is disenfranchising those two states what you really want or are you just a lemming for Obama? I think most people here who are defending Obama would prefer that the re-vote take place. What do you think?

You have to realize what this looks like to those of us who are not thrilled with Obama. His surrogates want us to finish up the process but 12 states, almost 25% have yet to vote.

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:28:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Come On (none / 0)

You haven't been following closely if you think the GOP hasn't had as big a hand in causing the debacles in FL and MI as Clinton operatives like Nelson and Granholm did.

But whereas Nelson and Granholm want to resolve it to save their own skins, the GOP legislatures in those states doesn't.

Hillary's only interest at this point is in trying to blame and smear Obama for her own political miscalculation.

The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.

by Liberal Avenger on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:42:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Come On (none / 0)

What you want to say is, if the roles were reversed would Hillary be blocking a re-vote the same way Obama is?

I really don't know but I don't care either. The right for Democrats to take part in the nominating process should never ever be decided on the whim of the DNC Chair or one of the candidates. Expulsion is not a remedy, it is a distortion of the will of the people and they should have to walk miles before they are allowed to let this happen.

Dean should have kept his damn mouth shut and like I said over and over again in this diary, he can give the FL and MI delegations the worst floor position and call on them last, give them the worst hotels but that guy, who has a vendetta against the Clintons should be expelled from the DNC for what he has done and should have been expelled when he first started this mess.

Please tell me when has a DNC Chairman ever been able to disenfranchise entire states? I bet when you log-off you admit that I am right..those people should vote, even if it means a private company would run it, with volunteers from the Florida Democratic Party and if pushed both governors would make sure their states pay their share since they want to have their Democratic citizens heard from.

We will not walk away from this and if Dean and Obama do, WWIII will break out at the convention and what good will that do.

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:28:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh Come On (none / 0)

"What you want to say is, if the roles were reversed would Hillary be blocking a re-vote the same way Obama is?"

Not one person who has claimed Obama is blocking anything has ever posted one iota of evidence to back it up....not even Jerome Armstrong when he was asked to a couple of days ago. He just referred to some obsure person without even providing a link.

The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.

by Liberal Avenger on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:36:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michigan and Florida re-vote (1.00 / 1)

Floridians are blaming Clinton:

Tampa Bay.com

The Hillary Clinton campaign has yet to express any interest in negotiating a solution to Florida's delegate mess, but a couple key Barack Obama staffers - delegate operations director Jeff Berman and political director Matt Nugen called state Democratic chairwoman Karen Thurman to talk about possible ways to give Florida a voice in the nomination. "We're just looking for solutions," said Obama spokesman Bill Burton.

St Pete Times

To hear her campaign tell it, Hillary Rodham Clinton is fighting the good fight to give Florida Democrats a say in the presidential primary, while Barack Obama is blocking her noble efforts. "This new strategy of denying and disempowering and disenfranchising the voters in Florida and Michigan is, I believe, a terrible mistake,'' Bill Clinton said in Indiana on Monday. "Hillary believes their votes should be counted." Nice try. But with every passing day, Sen. Clinton looks like the one most likely to disenfranchise Florida Democrats, not Sen. Obama. At a time when finding a real solution to the stalemate has grown critical, Team Clinton continues bellowing about the two options most everyone in Florida knows are impossible: counting the results from the Jan. 29 primary or holding an entirely new primary election by June. At least the Obama campaign, which for so long was dismissive of the Florida results, is opening the door for viable solutions to this primary debacle.

There are more, but these should be sufficient.

by Becky G on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:10:10 AM EST

You forgot to mention (none / 0)

that the "solution" that the Obama camp is looking for is a 50-50 split, or don't count them at all. The fairest solution is a re-vote, and I have a hard time believing that it is not possible logistically. States have run-off elections on pretty short notice. How much harder could it be to re-do a primary?

by georgiapeach on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:46:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You forgot to mention (none / 0)

I don't know what they're trying to do. However, my point was to show how Floridians are seeing it and they are right there. Some keep arguing that Floridians will be upset at Obama and vote for McCain. Not so. More likely if it's Clinton based on how she is handling this revote issue.

We can sit at our computers and post endlessly about what we think should be done but people are on the ground there and actually dealing wiht it and most of us have no idea at all what's really happening. All we're doing is fanning flames out of total ignorance.

by Becky G on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:55:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You forgot to mention (none / 0)

OK, but they aren't the only ones and they wouldn't go out on a limb if no one else was feeling the same way. The opinion (and it is only opinion) that Floridians are upset at Obama or believing HRC's spin is just wrong. I'm sure not all feel the same way but you have no way to claim anything about how the people in the states feel about this issue. Plenty are feeling the same as these writers.

by Becky G on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:21:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Becky, how can the right to vote (none / 0)

be ignorance? Punishing entire states is childish, petty and arrogant when so much is at stake, or ever. What gives Howard Dean the right to take away Democrats right to vote. If he has that right, then Democrats have the right to say I don't want anything to do with you.

He can put the Florida and Michigan delegations in the back of the convention hall, call on them last and take away their milk and cookies, but he cannot take away their right to vote. Everyone should be behind that regardless of what 2 or 3 editorial writers think. Who cares about editorials?

This is not a difficult issue for Democrats to understand, you take away my vote, regardless of what the whorish media says, and you are playing with FIRE and you will burn down the party.

Can you believe that you are looking to the media, which I bet you haven't done in a long time, to support your candidate and his stooge DNC Chair to disenfranchise two states? I never troll rate anyone but it looks to me like you are trying to destroy the Democratic Party, which by the way is not or does not belong to Howard Dean and Barack Obama, it's US!

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 01:45:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You forgot to mention (none / 0)

The Obama campaign put the 50-50 split on the table as a starting point. They want to negotiate, and fully expect there not to be a 50-50 split. That's what negotiation means.

Clinton is the one that doesn't want to talk about solutions. To her, it's "Count the votes or Obama isn't a legitimate nominee".

unapologetic Obama supporter

by dantes on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:15:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How can you negotiate my right to vote? (none / 0)

You can not! You just make sure the vote happens. 50/50 is nothing. They have to rerun the primary the same way it is always run without trying to do it in such a way that favors anyone, like sneaky Obama is trying to do now. They have to count every vote and not factor it by a half or anything...just fucking vote and count and that is it.

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 01:49:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michigan and Florida (2.00 / 1)

"Count their f***ing votes."

Right. Count their votes. So Hillary will have a stronger political argument for overriding everyone's vote with Superdelegates. Because that's what this is all about. Overruling the results of the voting, by imploring the DNC to "count the votes." Typically Clintonian.

by davey jones on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:10:39 AM EST

It doesn't matter what anyone says (none / 0)

and it doesn't matter who the candidates are. How can you be so blind. The right to vote belongs to the people, not to Barack Obama or Howard Dean.

I cannot believe you are against a re-vote because Hillary would have more to present to the super-delegates. Well, what if Hillary wins by huge numbers in those states, shouldn't the party have that information? If Obama wins than it will all be over and everyone will go into the general election together, to win.

Stop closing your eyes. Look at what you are saying.

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 01:33:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michigan and Florida (none / 0)

If the DNC dose not need my vote now, then I guess they won`t need it in Nov.

Wisdom Is The Reward For Listening Over A Lifetime

by gunner on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:36:49 AM EST

Re: Michigan and Florida re-vote or we vote for Mc (none / 0)

by mefck on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:48:52 AM EST

Re: Michigan and Florida re-vote or we vote for Mc (1.00 / 1)

If you care more about the revote than a woman's right to choose, our young men and women dying in Iraq, McCain's do-nothing economic policies, then go ahead and vote for him. Enjoy 4 more years of Bush.

But remember, Obama did not violate the DNC rules by moving up the primaries. Obama did not impose the penalties on these states. That was one of Hillary's top dogs, Harold Ickes.

by mefck on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:51:14 AM EST

Re: Michigan and Florida re-vote or we vote for Mc (2.00 / 1)

The voters are not the bad guys here.

I suggest Obama and his campaign look elsewhere to place the blame, like maybe in a mirror.

by RobinLB on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:02:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michigan and Florida re-vote or we vote for Mc (2.00 / 0)

Maybe you missed the part where Ickes is a member of Clinton's campaign.

Also the part where Florida refused a revote, and Clinton refuses any alternative except counting the original vote which disenfranchised everybody who thought the primary wouldn't seat delegates.

Obama is the only one trying to find a solution right now, but Clinton doesn't want to negotiate.

unapologetic Obama supporter

by dantes on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:17:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michigan and Florida re-vote or we vote for Mc (none / 0)

I think he was blaming the state's party leadership and not the voters.

The Democratic Party doesn't live or die with the Clintons

by nrafter530 on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:27:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michigan and Florida (1.00 / 1)

What about all the people who didn't vote because they thought the primary didn't count. There are two people in my family in Florida who would be royally p'd off if they counted the votes as is.

by mefck on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:52:37 AM EST

Re: Michigan and Florida (none / 0)

What about those who voted in the GOP primaries, because it, at least, counted for something?

Donate to Obama, Today!

by freedom78 on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 01:28:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Leave Florida Out of It! (2.00 / 1)

we voted. we knew what we were voting for. we understood that our delegates wouldn't get seated. we are not interested, under any circumstances, interested in voting until september (our regular primary)...

"I believe he can win. If he runs a campaign anywhere like the terrific campaign he ran to get the nomination, he'll win handily." - Ed Rendell

by bored now on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:02:46 PM EST

Not true (none / 0)

You are an Obama supporter who is letting your desire for Obama to be president override Floridians' right to vote. Nobody has the right to take that away. Take away milk and cookies and where they sit on the convention floor but Howard Dean, Obama's whore, had no right to disenfranchise all of Florida and all of Michigan and what gives him the right to tell them when to vote in the first place.

What is the point of voting anyway. We should have had Dean choose the nominee, right?

What you also miss is that all those pissed off in Florida and Michigan who are not Obama believers could very well get angry and vote for McCain, like me, if there is no re-vote. There goes the manipulated primary season Dean and Obama tried to sneak passed everyone. They will be hated like Nader and rightly so.

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 02:01:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Consider your bluff called (none / 0)

Go ahead. Vote however you want.

But take your -ing blackmail attempt with you on your way out the door.

Take your fear and shove it, it ain't workin' on us no more.

by Quicklund on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:31:09 PM EST

Re: Consider your bluff called (none / 0)

There will be a continued effort to burn the Bill of Rights into a pile of ashes under these neocon bastards. The war in Iraq will continue forever. We will get a bright shiny new war with Iran. The HUGE defecit spending will continue. The SCOTUS will be packed with anti choice justices and any attempt to reinstate the Constitution will be vetoed by President McCain, but hey.... at least these childish sore losers will get to stay self-righteous and that's the important thing, right?

Government derives its power from those that it governs.

by lockewasright on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:46:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consider your bluff called (none / 0)

Isn't it petty?

People are throwing tantrums, and we're talking about a potential President who will not change policies that are KILLING people.

4,000 troops in Iraq.

And how many die because they lack insurance and don't get treatment?

Donate to Obama, Today!

by freedom78 on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 01:33:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Consider your bluff called (none / 0)

and how many more may die because some folks can't get over the sour grapes?

Government derives its power from those that it governs.

by lockewasright on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 08:37:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

fairness (none / 0)

I'm so tired of hearing this bizarro world "fairness" claim out of people who think that Florida and Michigan should get to have any impact on the nomination.

They were warned ahead of time. They didn't heed the warning.

They were then told that the rules would stand and offered a chance to go back on their bad decision. They chose not to.

Then all of the candidates, including Hliary, agreed that the votes wouldn't count.

Then the residents of both states were told that the votes wouldn't count.

Then Hilary started losing and losing badly. Suddenly she tried to float the utterly laughable idea that the states should seat their delegates as is.

Then the citizens of the state of Florida told the state legislature through thousands of letters, phone calls, and emails that they did not even want to revote.

Then the courts put the kaibosh on the Michigan primary and any chance of a revote.

NONE OF THIS WAS BARACK OBAMA'S DOING. It's not even in his power to make the call. (If he had that sort of power and influence this race would be over by now.)

He commited to the same agreement that all of the candidates commited to. The only difference between he and Hilary is that he then proceded to honor the agreement. How the hell is that unfair and how the hell is any of this his doing?!

The only honest answers are:

It is fair and it's not his doing.

To say otherwise is soo damn far from honest that the folks making "fairness" arguments should be considered not credible in anything that they have to say on any topic ever again until such time as they retract that load of crap.

Really people, just because blogs are a medium wherein nobody can see if you managed to keep a straight face while shoveling this manure doesn't mean that it's okay to lose all integrity in your desperation to justify keeping the McCain surrogate in the race.

Government derives its power from those that it governs.

by lockewasright on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:41:22 PM EST

Hey! (none / 0)

Your words come right out of Howard Dean's mouth. Who the hell are you or Howard Dean to disenfranchise two states and who the hell are you or him to tell them when to vote.

Without those two states voting, there is no legitimate nominee. Have you ever heard of a DNC Chair removing the right to vote from citizens of any states? Has that ever been done before?

Dean hates the Clintons and Florida and Michigan are Clinton states. Dean wants revenge against the Clintons because they didn't want him to be the DNC Chair. I don't want to be an accomplice to his revenge but you seem to.

Dean has also said it was OK for Obama to praise Ronald Reagan and the idea gushing Republicans. No DNC Chair would say that. They would smack down that person or say, no comment. He said it was fine. He and Obama are one right now and both of them are distorting this election and you are allowing it.

At least I'll be able to say that I fought the unfairness.

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 02:14:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey! (none / 0)

Dean didn't move the primaries in either state. You cannot blame him for what they did. In fact, Dr. Dean was very fair in that he warned them ahead of time, offered them a chance to go back on their decision even after they did what they did, and then involved all of the campaigns in the decision about what to do once the states still decided to defy the rules. At that point Hilary's campaign (and everyone else's) used the opportunity to come to the decision that the delegates would not be seated. If you think that Dr. Dean, or Barack Obama have any blame here or that what happened was anything other than BENDING OVER BACKWARDS to be fair and then abiding by the decision then you have absolutely no grasp on reality or fairness.

As far as my words coming right out of Dean's mouth; it's only true insofar as my words would be in agreement with his if he said it's usually light out at noon, or 2+2=4. It's a simple and obvious truth. Maybe some day in ten years when you've settled down enough not to be out of your mind with desperation to justify what is a LOST candidacy you'll see how obvious it is and how badly it reflects on Hilary's campaign that she and her supporters are taking such a clearly ridiculous position on this.

Government derives its power from those that it governs.

by lockewasright on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 08:49:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey! (none / 0)

Dr. Dean has it in for the Clintons and he wants Obama to have the nomination, that's a given.

Like I said above, I really don't give a shit what Dr. Dean, Obama or even Hillary says. You do not disenfranchise 2 states and how fucking stupid can you be to disenfranchise big swing states? One man can never have that power.

This stupidity reminds me of Cablevision preventing NYers from seeing the Yankees for an entire year. Now, Charles Dolan, Cablevion's owner, has prevented those on Long Island and in Northern NJ who have FIOS from seeing MSNBC because he has an exclusive. These are things that should not be allowed to happen.

Look what it comes down to is if there are no re-votes, Obama is a dead duck. Hillary supporters will be mad and will either not vote of because of this heist of the party they will vote for McCain, independents will be mad and disgusted with Dean and Obama's gall to take away the vote from so many and the residents of Florida and Michigan who have done nothing wrong will be pissed as hell. Dr. Dean, who said it was OK for his Barack to praise Reagan and the Republicans of ideas, screwed the Democratic Party out of the White House. There always seems to be some holier than thou Democrat who messes things up.

by cpa1a on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 10:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey! (none / 0)

That's just silly and shows a lack of understanding of the nominating process. This is not some wild exception. It is the norm for states to not get a say in it. That's the entire motivation for moving the dates. Most of the states in any given primary season will not see a single vote counted because the nominee gets selected before it gets too far into the process. Of course most years the losing candidates have enough class and enough concern for the party to step down once they're beaten.

Government derives its power from those that it governs.

by lockewasright on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 05:06:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey! (none / 0)

That's becoming so typical of some of the folks around here. Look is a group of people are in agreement and you don't agree. It's not always a conspiracy. Sometimes it's because you're wrong.

Government derives its power from those that it governs.

by lockewasright on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 08:53:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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