Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote

Peter Daou just sent out another e-mail linking to Marc Ambinder's article entitled, "How to Count the Popular Vote", which in turn references Jay Cost's amazing spreadsheet over at RealClearPolitics. The spreadsheet allows us horserace handicappers to plug in our prognostications about the remaining primaries, and look at the outcome in popular vote, with and without FL and MI and with all other kinds of scenarios. And it shows why Obama's lawyering up to block the seating of the FL delegation. His popular vote lead largely depends on his ability to disenfranchise FL and MI. And with the popular vote lead goes the ability to strongarm the superdelegates, Pelosi-style.

Here's Ambinder quoting Jay Cost, and opining:

The hyperintelligent Jay Cost at RearClearPolitics has produced for us a most helpful spreadsheet computing the various popular vote scenarios.

But this paragraph, is, to me, a very crucial point that both Clinton and Obama campaigns would rather ignore:

We have a large number of unknown factors. For many of them, we have very little idea what values they will ultimately take. What we do know is that small changes in several of them could induce large changes in the vote count. This makes it extremely difficult to be as precise as many commentators have been. We need to be wary of all the uncertainty we face here. So -- my fairly conservative calculation has Clinton netting about 446,000 votes between now and June 3. Under all scenarios that exclude Florida and Michigan votes -- and count the votes of Washington's primary -- Obama still retains a popular vote lead of not more than 330,000 -- or an advantage of less than one and a half percent.

Under a scenario that includes the Florida and Michigan votes for Clinton, gives Obama all of the uncommitted Michigan votes, estimates the votes for all the caucus states and includes the Washington primary, Clinton wins by about 16,000 votes -- or about a tenth of one percent.

Which scenario is "right?" Under DNC rules, until the credentials committee figures out which delegations to seat, Florida and Michigan do not exist. But the voters in those states certainly do in the existential sense -- and if we're answering the question by figuring out how many Democrats voted for Obama versus how many Democrats voted for Clinton.

Obama supporters will anchor their estimates in the worldview most hospitable to Obama's nomination, and Clinton's supporters will similarly find ways to justify including Florida and Michigan before it is DNC-legal to do so.

The media may be called upon to take a stand -- especially since the superdelegates tend to listen to the media more than other entities -- and the most reasonable answer may well be -- well, it depends on who you talk to.

Are there historical precedents? Well, Democrats like to count every vote. So -- advantage Hillary? But there has to be some tempering factor to account for Obama's name not being on the Michigan ballot. Ok, but then there has to be some tempering factor to account for the fact that Obama's campaign made the decision to stay off the Michigan ballot as least as much because they feared losing the state to Clinton as they wanted to make a statement to Iowans about the integrity of the calendar process. Obama's campaign also made the strategic decision to contest caucuses; the Clinton campaign dumbly decided to avoid them. If they had spent a comparable amount of money and resources in the caucus states, Obama's margin of victory would have been lower and he certainly would have less of a delegate lead.

These are all arguments... all persuasive in their own way... and they don't get me any clearer towards the answering the question about which votes to count and which votes to ignore.

This race is closer than people are pretending it is. I'm not saying Hillary will win the popular vote, but i AM saying that people screaming "the race is over!" are engaged in wishful thinking. Go to Jay Cost's spreadsheet and plug in some numbers. I've been playing with it for the last two days, and I can make the baby Jesus cry real easy.



Display:


Clinton can win! (1.00 / 1)

Under a scenario that includes Obama's house getting blown up by a meteor, has campaign manager being struck by lightning, and Jesus Christ the almighty superstar of the sky returning to use his automatic +10,000 megadelegate powers, Clinton can win.


by furiousxgeorge on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:06:48 PM EST

Re: Clinton can win! (2.00 / 2)

How exactly can Obama get the required delegates to win the nomination ?

Under what scenario ?


When I speak I have a southern drawl.. When you come down here Stop and say hello I'm an American from south of the Mason Dixon line
by lori on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:10:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (1.50 / 2)

Under the scenario of the super delegates would be insane to risk a backlash to over turn the pledged delegates leader unless it is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that the people made a mistake in their choice.


by furiousxgeorge on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:13:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (2.00 / 1)

Uh, explain how it's insane to vote for the candidate you think can win in November.


by PlainWords on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:43:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (none / 0)

It's not insane if you do it now, but if you wait until after the primaries are over and want to go the other way you better have a good damn reason.


by furiousxgeorge on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 06:25:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (none / 0)

Like in New Mexico when Gov. Richardson said "frack you" to the popular vote which picked Clinton?  Yeah, he sure suffered a backlash.  


by shellius on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 07:32:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Richardson and Backlash (none / 0)

Well, being repeatedly called "Judas" by Mr. Black Gloves is at least a little backlash.  But yeah, with his essential constituencies, I've seen nothing about Richardson seeing blowback over his endorsement.

And, uhm...Creek?  Is that you?  If'n it is, you once knew me under a different name, Zathras10.

Prog


by Progressive Witness on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 08:38:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (none / 0)

Not at all like that.  No one is saying superdelegates should be beholden to the vote in their states, but to the will of the party as a whole by the time of the convention.


by furiousxgeorge on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 09:17:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

national popular vote -- or local consituents (none / 0)

The problem is that Pelosi and others talk about "the will of the people" then whisper "as shown by pledged delegates, screw the popular vote".

A clear majority of the primary vote of registered Democrats in all 50 states might be an indicator of the will of Democrats nationwide. Overturning something like that would be ... problematical.

Voting as a "Superdelegate for the nation" is a nice idea, for those who can do it. But realistically, their local consituencies are going to influence a lot of SDs.


by 1950democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 09:29:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: national popular vote -- or local consituents (none / 0)

Obama is winning the popular vote too, they can go with that if you want.


by furiousxgeorge on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 09:32:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (2.00 / 1)

There is absolutely nothing that states the leader in pledged delegates is any more entitled to the nomination than the popular vote leader or the leader in states with the most electoral votes for that matter. The super delegates are there for the exact purpose of overturning the pledged delegate leader if that leader is deemed to be less electable. If not, then tell me what damn purpose do they serve?

The only backlash will come from people who've been duped by a few vocal Obama supporters into believing that pledged delegates are the sole criteria that should be used to determine who wins the nomination. No candidate will end the primary season with nearly enough pledged delegates to win the nomination. Thus, the super delegates get to decide the winner based on whatever they deem important, be it pledged delegate lead, popular vote lead, or electability.


by bouvougan on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 08:06:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

tie-breakers not rubber stamps (none / 0)

In a close contest, you need something other than one raw number to make the decision. Whether that number was pledged delegates or popular vote, if that number were all that counted, we'd have recount lawsuits going over every hanging chad, and still not have a nominee by November! Trying to tell the Supers to pledge to any one particular metric is ridiculous and in effect dishonest as it promotes a wrong view of their function.

There are just too many ways to cut and shuffle the numbers. Which may not be a bad thing, for those SDs who want a figleaf; and it gets people examining the various numbers and scenarios.

I'll say one thing for the current DNC schedule and weighting ... the idea of giving more weight to the later primary states, gives more weight to the voters who have the most information and whose feelings are the most up to date, thus being more realistic indicators for November.


by 1950democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 09:10:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (none / 0)

Less electable?  No.  Unelectable, sure.  You don't overturn the will of the nationwide party unless you have to.


by furiousxgeorge on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 09:17:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (none / 0)

You guys keep talking about overturning the will of the people.  He hasn't won this thing or the poppular vote yet.

So will he drop out the second Hillary pulls ahead on the vote count?


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 10:43:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (none / 0)

Damn it's getting old repeating myself.  The super delegates can do whatever the hell they want right now as far as I'm concerned.  But, If they wait till the end when the popular and delegate race is over, they need a damn good reason to go the other way, whoever is in the lead.


by furiousxgeorge on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 11:19:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (none / 0)

In an election this close, there is no "will of the Democratic party" to overturn when two of the largest states are being ignored. That's why it is so important for every voice to be heard--to find out what the will of the people really is. If the voters in Florida and Michigan are denied a voice, this nomination contest will be no more legitimate than Florida in 2000. And I don't mean simply seating delegates according to some arbitrary rule, I mean settling it in the only fair manner and holding revotes.


by bouvougan on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 10:57:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (none / 0)

The rules of the democratic party have spoken, and those rules were well known coming in.


by furiousxgeorge on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 11:20:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (none / 0)

There were no rules that were set, there was an agreement reached to not seat half the Florida and Michigan delegates. There is absolutely nothing to prevent a revote in these states. It amazes me that Obama supporters are so afraid of losing a revote that they would prefer to disenfranchise the voters in these states rather than determine what the real will of the Democratic party is. It's exactly the same reason the Republicans used to stop the counting of votes in Florida. Their candidate winning took precedence over democracy.


by bouvougan on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 08:45:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (none / 0)

Like caucuses, and appendixes,
they are anachronisms

They serve no current purpose, just a vestige from past problems.

Many here disdain caucusues as inappropriate and "disenfranchising peoples votes"

That's exactly what superdelgates do, and one day they will go the way of the dinosaurs.


by holder on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 09:59:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

SDs are still needed (2.00 / 1)

Disagree. Now they're needed as tie-breakers if nothing else, and to look at late developments that might affect electability. And many other things.

Balance of power. Like, we have the Congress (elected every 2 years), Senate 6 years, judges perennial.


by 1950democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 10:01:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (none / 0)

Oo! Oo! I know...

WHy don't you run for an elected office within the party leadership on the DNC?  Put in oh I don't know 10 or 30 years working for the party to the point where you can say something and they'll listen - maybe think you've got a good idea here?


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 10:45:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (none / 0)

not sure I understand what you're saying here.

but i guess you making fun of me so I won't spend too much time trying to decipher.

In todays well connected world we don't need hundreds of tie breakers, a dozen would do. Also those long time party folks can use their experience, knowledge and earned respect to persuade voters to vote for who they think is best. Seems more directly accountable to the people.


by holder on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:27:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (none / 0)

Yeah that's right - threaten the Supers dude.  Another winning strategy - NOT!

Seriously man, they're not gonna scare that easily.  Threats of backlash or no, they're going to go with the Democrat they think will make the BEST PRESIDENT and maybe oh I don't know...

BEAT MCCAIN!

Both counts that'd be Hillary.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 10:37:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (none / 0)

If they think Clinton is best, DECLARE IT NOW.  Why are they waiting?  It's perfectly legitimate if they do it now, but if they wait to the convention the backlash will be real and just.  You are delusional if you think otherwise.


by furiousxgeorge on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 11:22:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (none / 0)

Assuming the candidates split the remaining states as expected (big Clinton wins in PA, WV, KY, PR...big Obama wins in NC, OR, SD, MT...Indiana and Guam more or less tied), Obama will end up around 1950 total delegates (pledged plus his committed supers) by the last contest.  That's not even counting the add-ons he will get as state conventions continue to select them, he will probably get anoter 40-45 or so from those.  All he needs is to keep accumulating superdelegates at the rate that he is and he will pass the required 2024 delegates long before the convention, probably even before the last states have voted.

It is true that he will not win 2024 pledged delegates.  But he already has enough superdelegates on his side (plus add-ons to be selected in states he won) that he will reach 2024 total delegates sometime in May or early June.  Once Obama is the nominee he can seat the MI and FL delegations as is, and the convention will run smoothly.


by Skaje on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 08:54:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (none / 0)

And then we can say bye bye to universal health care, more free market ideology, and another push toward privatizing Social Security.

Wonderful.


by splashy on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:22:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton can win! (none / 0)

Obama can actually get less than 50% (48% to be exact) of the delegates from the remaining contests and have enough delegates (including those SD's who have already committed to him) to win the nomination on the first ballot.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 10:31:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote (2.00 / 0)

I will point out that not all caucuses reported their actual popular vote totals so we don't know how many people in those states voted only the delegates,

do these caucuses states don't count then?

seems to be a pretty interesting opinion shout shout shout that FL and MI must count but say that small caucus states are unimportant to you.

but that is your right.


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:09:11 PM EST

Re: Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote (2.00 / 2)

Look, you have argued very vehemently that Clinton cannot win without overturning the will of the people.  And to some extent, I agree...

But, you must also face up to the fact that neither can Obama ~ his path to the nomination REQUIRES that FL/MI be excluded.  With FL/MI counted as is, Obama would lose (and counting FL/MI would be entirely within the "rules" ~ the rules are made up by the credentials committee).

Excluding FL/MI makes as much (or as little) sense as excluding the caucus states.

One way out would be for FL/MI to have a revote, but Obama does not support that. If that is accepted, then why should caucus states count ?  We already know (read: Texas) that caucuses do not represent the popular will !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:17:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote (2.00 / 1)

nope I did a long post about this

click my name, and read my post "A serious dicussion about MI/FL"

5 of 6 ways different ways Obama leads even if we count MI, the only way Hillary is TIED is if we seat them, and obama gets nothing from MI.


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:21:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote (none / 0)

They are currently tied under scenario 6.  But Clinton will win more pledged delegates going forward ~ so under that scenario, Clinton should win .


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:30:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote (none / 0)

lol did you read the whole diary to see why option 6 is the least likely?

seating those delegates and not even awarding anything to Obama?

fine, we agree to disagree and shall see what happens.


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:32:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote (2.00 / 1)

I read your diary...did you read my comment ?

If you do not seat the delegation as is, the only other fair outcome is a revote.  So, I do not consider the other Options you discussed.

Either a revote, or seat them as is (including split ting the 55 uncommitted from MI).

If you do not agree to that, then why should we accept the validity of caucuses..TX proved that caucuses are all bs anyways.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:48:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Send them ALL in as Uncommitted? (none / 0)

What if they sent ALL the FL and MI delegtes as "Uncommitted" and let Obama and HIllary woo them individually? That levels the field, saves money, the delegates can get input from their home districts if they want to....

Traditional really.


by 1950democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 09:59:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Send them ALL in as Uncommitted? (none / 0)

That's about as fair as flipping a coin to decide who they vote for.  The results of the MI contest are meaningless and should not be used in anyway to divvy up delegates.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 10:35:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Send them ALL in as Uncommitted? (none / 0)

Disenfranchising FL/MI is also evil.

You don't have any "correct" answers here


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 11:34:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Send them ALL in as Uncommitted? (none / 0)

I would not say its "evil"--undemocratic and regretable yes--but not evil.

And you hit the nail on the head.  I don't see any correct answers if correct can be defined as allowing the will of the voters to be registered at the convention through voting/splitting procedures that are fair to all parties.

On one hand, the status quo will not allow the voice of the voters to be registered at the conventions because the delegates will simply not be seated.

On the other hand, because of all of the flaws inherent in the the unofficial FL/MI contests, we can be quite sure that the results there do not reflect the will of the voters so seating the delegates as is will not solve the problem either.

I have been a proponent of revotes but I understand why Obama resists the proposals that have thus far been floated for MI.  They disqualify a demographic that skews heavily for Obama--voters who cast votes in the Republican primary with no reason to believe there would be a Democratic contest from which they would be excluded for this action.  Allowing a revote under these circumstances would be unfair to Obama (as unfair as it would be to disqualify a demograhic favorable to Hillary, say, women or Hispanics), and the results from such a contest would be so skewed to Hillary as to call into question whether they too mirepresented the will of the voters.

Under these circumstances, as unfortunate and undemocratic as enforcing the DNC rule might be the alternatives are just as unrepresentative of the will of the voters and cannot serve as a solution to the problem.  Given this, we just need to follow the rule as it has been given unless voting procedures can be agreed to which would not prejudice either party.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:00:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Send them ALL in as Uncommitted? (none / 0)

You forgot one thing:

"The rules" DO allow for the FL/MI delegations to be seated as is ~ that decision is upto the credentials committee.  There are no clearcut "rules" set forth by the DNC that have to be enforced.

It may be politically impossible to not allow the FL/MI delegation to be seated.  I do not think Sen. Obama has adequately considered that risk!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 01:25:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Send them ALL in as Uncommitted? (none / 0)

The DNC rules committee has ruled.  The credentials committee can CHANGE the rule.  For the reasons I discussed, I think it best that they don't however.  Polls show Obama doing fine in MI and nearly as good as Clinton in FL, as regrettable as the situation is I don't think it will have the fallout you expect.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 01:57:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Send them ALL in as Uncommitted? (none / 0)

It will have a fallout if he is seen as having prevented a revote in MI/FL and is then seen as not allowing them to be seated !!

Actually, I do not understand why he does not agree to a revote...the polls are close in MI, as you said.  And he can only do better than what he did last time (when he was not on the ballot).  If he got anything even close to 40% of the vote, his delegate lead would TRULY be insurmountable.

He is not acting like a winner, sadly


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 02:21:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Send them ALL in as Uncommitted? (none / 0)

He's not agreeing to a revote because the clause in the proposal that would disqualify people who voted in the Republican primary unfairly stops a demographic that skews heavily in his favor from voting.  I think you're right about how beneficial a revote would be for him b/c of polling and the perception he is acting presidentially, but the real reason he is hesitant to go forward is this clause.  If the votes were conducted under those conditions he'd probably lose by a lot more than if everyone were allowed to vote.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 09:09:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

BO got 16% more in caucus than primary in WA (2.00 / 1)

WAshington state is also evidence that the popular vote gives different results than the caucus: 16% difference iirc. The popular vote was near tie, the caucus vote near 70/30 for Obama.


by 1950democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 08:57:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BO got 16% more in caucus than primary in WA (none / 0)

Hillary got the same margin of victory in FL as she did in her home state of NY (17%).  The fact that its her highest margin of victory anywhere indicates that not allowing the lesser known candidate to campaign produces results that are also at odds with the popular will from a regular election.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 10:37:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Eliminate the never-swing states (none / 0)

A good start would be eliminating red-forever states (and blue-forever), and giving more weight to the purple than the shades either side.  (But count CA purple, as it has a GOP governor.)


by 1950democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 09:20:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Eliminate the never-swing states (none / 0)

"But count CA purple, as it has a GOP governor"

California is one of the bluest states in the country.  The fact that it has a liberal Republican governor should not be grounds to count it as a swing state.  


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 10:45:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Let;'s see... Peter Daou send out a memo proving (none / 0)

... pundits are idiots because they don;t know what they're talking about, then he sends out a memo citing a pundit.

Is he working for Jon Stewart and The Daily Show?


by Bob Johnson on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:12:16 PM EST

Re: Let;'s see... Peter Daou send out a memo provi (2.00 / 1)

thats your mistake, its not all pundits,

its all pundits who don't say something they can send out in emails like here.

if the pundits agree with them, then obviously they are correct.

please catch up if you want to post here.


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:13:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote (none / 0)

I will also point out, I don't expect anyone to listen but in a year of RECORD turn outs, why does that spreadsheet say that all the expectations are LOWER then in '04?

don't we actually expect more in all those states? but thats all I will say

yes, Clinton will win the nomination


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:12:20 PM EST

'Cuz perhaps... (2.00 / 1)


I agree with Hillary Clinton and canadian gal (!!), so I fully support Barack Obama for President! :-)
by atdleft on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:16:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

'Cuz perhaps... (2.00 / 1)

They want to forecast conservatively (no, not THAT conservative) instead of forecasting something that may or may not occur. But even if turnout is at record highs in the upcoming states, that may very well help Hillary overturn the VERY narrow popular vote lead Obama has even sooner.


I agree with Hillary Clinton and canadian gal (!!), so I fully support Barack Obama for President! :-)
by atdleft on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:18:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great catch CampSkunk (2.00 / 3)

Ambinder must have been channeling Jerome when he typed this out.

This campaign is JUST GETTING STARTED baby!

Meanwhile, I think Leahy knows what he can frickin do with his DESPERATE demand that Hillary quit.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:15:52 PM EST

Re: Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote (2.00 / 1)

Include MI, FL, Caucus Estimates. Use WA Primary. Unaffiliated MI Votes To Obama.   
Obama -192,554   

DEMOCRATIC 08!
by rigsoHC on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:43:36 PM EST

Re: Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote (none / 0)

why include the washington primary when everybody in the state knew it held no weight in this nomination race.   if you really want to include it then I would suggest throwing in some straw polls that were held in various states as well.


by soros on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 07:15:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

do straw polls have higher turnouts than the real (2.00 / 1)

vote? Nope, but this did, which means its more representative, not at all like FL, where less people voted because they thought it wouldnt count, MORE People voted


DEMOCRATIC 08!
by rigsoHC on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 07:35:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: do straw polls have higher turnouts than the r (none / 0)

Again, some counties had school levies on the ballot whereas Obama stronghold King County had nothing else.  That leads to skewed results.


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:17:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote (none / 0)

You know, I have been wondering why people think that all the uncommitted votes should go to Obama? I used to be an Edwards supporter, and went for Clinton. How do people know all those uncommitted people were for Obama? Maybe some would have gone to Clinton if their chosen candidate was not on the ballot.

Should have had a revote, yep.


by splashy on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 12:39:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Every lawmaker that comes out saying (2.00 / 1)

Hillary should quit, before its over, deserves hear our angry voices!!!


DEMOCRATIC 08!
by rigsoHC on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:44:12 PM EST

Re: Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote (2.00 / 4)

that was a rather good spreadsheet and I have been playing with it. In my view, I think she will win the popular vote with the caucses included and possibly even FL/MI.

Ironically, Puerto Rico might provide her a strong boost, given that the turnout might be near 2M and she might win by 20+ points. I heard Bill is headed there!


by American1989 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:53:23 PM EST

Re: Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote (none / 0)

eah, the gov thought he'd do a little chicago politicking by throwing it to obama. looks like elliot ness caught up with him, though. bad timing, obama.


by campskunk on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 06:50:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote (2.00 / 0)

too bad hillary can't use the popular vote totals in a way to secure the nomination, otherwise there would be a popular vote counter here on mydd.    


by soros on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 07:12:51 PM EST

Re: Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote (none / 0)

And this is why we don't use national vote totals to pick our nominees.


by Skaje on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 08:34:37 PM EST

Re: Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote (none / 0)

well, maybe you could get the obama people to shut up about it, then. i bet they will if they lose the lead by whatever way they count it.


by campskunk on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 09:03:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote (none / 0)

the only reason the Obama camp mentions popular vote is because the Clinton camp starting pushing it after it was clear Obama was winning the delegate count.

I'm sure the Obama camp would rather talk about delegates, he's leading by more there.


by bawbie on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 09:38:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BO's camp was for it before they were against it (2.00 / 1)

In February, the Obama camp was warning against the 'party elite' overturning THE POPULAR VOTE.

When Hillary started gaining in popular vote, BO's tried to redefine 'will of the people' in terms of pledged delegates.

They hadn't succeeded as of early March, by a Rasmussen poll:
Among Democratic voters, 59% believe the candidate with the most popular votes deserves the nomination while 25% take the opposite view. [....]
Still, 45% of Obama voters believe that the nomination should go to the candidate with the most popular votes rather than the candidate with the most pledged delegates. Just 32% of Obama supporters believe the candidate with the most pledged delegates should win.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_c ontent/politics/election_20082/2008_pres idential_election/57_say_candidate_with_ most_votes_should_get_nomination


by 1950democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 09:52:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Marc Ambinder: How To Count The Popular Vote (none / 0)

If they are going to seat these delegates then I don't think Michigan should count unless there is a re-vote.  Assigning the 45% Uncommitted to Obama is equivalent to guessing.  In truth, I'm really starting not to care about Florida and Michigan.  For whatever reason they broke the rules, it sucks that the voters don't get to have their say, but punishment is punishment.  Had uncommitted won MI and John Edwards won Florida, this would be a non-issue right now.  


This administration is not sinking. This administration is soaring! If anything, they are rearranging the deck chairs on the Hindenburg!
by venavena on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 09:34:17 PM EST


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