The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink

It's becoming increasingly evident that Hillary Clinton's strategy to raise doubts about Barack Obama's candidacy is backfiring. Yesterday, the latest NBC/WSJ poll showed that while Obama's positive/negative rating has dropped a bit recently, from 51-28 earlier this month to 49-32, Clinton's has absolutely plummeted from 45-43 to 37-48 today. Who would have thought that during a period that involved the Wright controversy that it would be Clinton's approval that would be the one to dip.

We're also seeing Hillary Clinton's popularity drop in what her campaign considers Clinton country and one of the key pillars of their big state argument: California. A new PPIC poll of CA shows Clinton with a net negative favorable rating of 45-52, while Barack Obama enjoys a very high favorability rating of 61-34. The net effect: she polls worse against McCain in a general election match-up than Obama does. While Obama beats McCain 49-40, Clinton's margin of victory is within the MOE at 46-43. I have to agree with Frank Russo at CA Progress Report:

The findings in this poll show, that for the largest state in the nation with 55 Electoral College Votes (20% of those needed to be elected President), Obama is much better positioned to win in November--and why. It calls into question one of the central arguments of a Clinton candidacy--that she can win the big states in the fall--and that there is a correlation between Democratic primary results and performance in November.

This disapproval at Clinton's recent tactics is carrying over to the all important superdelegates as well, some of whom are expressing their concerns outwardly that Clinton is doing more harm than good to herself and the party.

At a time when Sen. Hillary Clinton is increasingly relying on superdelegates to vault her to the Democratic Party's nomination, a handful of undecided and pledged superdelegates are coming forward to say her campaign's tactics in recent weeks are doing more harm than good. [...]

"In looking at the manner in which the candidates are campaigning, I think it would be best they focused their attention on the presumptive nominee and showed our party which one is better in campaigning against McCain," said Garry Shay, a California superdelegate, who announced his support for Clinton. [...]

But one undeclared delegate, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said the recent tactics are turning her and other superdelegates off.

"I don't think anybody's saying 'step aside,' but 'stop with the garbage' is what people want to say," the delegate said. "Just chill a little bit." [...]

"We like the fact that there is a candidate that has won so many states overwhelmingly," the delegate said. "We're feeling her advisors are leading her in a path that diminishes her as well as him." [...]

The final straw, though, were Clinton's comments Tuesday, when she said the Rev. Jeremiah Wright "would not have been my pastor." Several superdelegates saw it as a direct, personal attack on Obama.

"I think it's very dangerous for any candidate to constantly thrum on what they perceive as sensational criticisms of their opponent," said Debra Kozikowski, an uncommitted superdelegate from Massachusetts. "I would be more likely to respond positively to discussions of issues that effect Americans versus what might be perceived as character flaws."

While it may be too soon to tell, it certainly appears as though the Clinton team may be shifting away from the sort of tactics that are turning people off. Today, in response to Obama's economic speech, Hillary Clinton returned to the "real solutions" vs. "just words" frame to criticize Obama, an attack I think all would agree is fair game. Clinton also stepped up her criticism of John McCain in a speech in North Carolina.

Sometimes the phone rings at 3am in the White House and it's an economic crisis. And we need a president who is ready and willing to answer that call. But I read Senator McCain's plan which does virtually nothing to ease the credit crisis or the housing crisis. The phone is ringing and he would just let it ring and ring.

Senator McCain is a friend of mine but he said himself, "The issue of economics is not something I've understood as well as I should." He'd rather ignore the credit crisis and mortgage crisis -- or blame middle class families instead of offering solutions on their behalf.

We've had enough of a president who didn't know enough about economics, and didn't do enough for the middle class. I don't think we can afford four more years. I believe we have to answer the call and act aggressively to deal with the housing and credit crises. That's the kind of president we need after eight years of George Bush.

More of this, please, Senator.



Display:


Good for Garry Shay (2.00 / 5)

I know Garry Shay.  I like Garry Shay.  We email back and forth pretty frequently.  But I think what Garry Shay might have actually meant is:

"Hey, Hillary--stop campaigning for McCain and start campaigning against him."


by hekebolos on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:34:07 PM EST

Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 1)

What about the consequences of the kitchen sink strategy for the Democratic Party?

Is all we cared about was Hillary, we might only want to consider the counter-productive strategy of her campaign (amateur hour, anyone?).

But when we have a dairy on the Consequences of the Kitchen Sink on MyDD, you'd think the dairy would be focused on the negative consequence for the Democratic Party and for the level of political discourse in our country in general.
by xtrarich on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:05:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

Actually it IS about the Democratic party because it is the Democratic Party members that are demonstrating how we don't like what is going on one bit.

And the Democratic Party through the members are very concerned about the negative effect this is having on a Democratic Party's nomination process and that this type of campaign may well keep going to not good consequences in the GE come November which is why those numbers are now tanking.

If the past holds true, these changes will be temporary though.

This is but the latest one we'll wait and see what the next move will be from the Clinton camp.


by Wary on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:20:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (1.80 / 5)

The kitchen sink was the only chance she had left.  Clearly the voting public is not going to stand for it.  This should be over now.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:34:48 PM EST

GET THESE TROLLS OUT OF HERE. (1.00 / 4)

please


by squid on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:46:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET THESE TROLLS OUT OF HERE. (none / 0)

That's rich coming from someone who was following me around troll rating me after accusing me and other of being sockpuppets paid by the Obama campaign.

There is a troll here, but it's not who you think it is.


by bawbie on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:49:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET THESE TROLLS OUT OF HERE. (none / 0)

Is it me?

:D


"Don't hate the media, become the media" - Jello Biafra
by LandStander on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:25:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET THESE TROLLS OUT OF HERE. (none / 0)

This squid dude has been here for all of two days and he's calling long time users trolls.  He should've waited at least a few days before abusing the TR.  Sad.


by NewOaklandDem on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:27:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GET THESE TROLLS OUT OF HERE. (none / 0)

This is a website for democrats, hence the name, and progressives should be allowed to post here to talk about the candidate they support if its not your favorite candidate Hillary.

If all you want is Pro-Hillary posts then go to her campaign website.

Thats not what this site is for.  It not entitled Hillary for President website its called MyDD.

Get a grip and stop your whining, its rather immature, like ur candidate.


by gabbie on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:53:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (1.57 / 7)

Way to buy into the media narrative Todd.

Other polls coompletly disagre, but hey, if its on MSNBC, its gotta be right, right?


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:35:06 PM EST

what other polls? (2.00 / 2)

sources please?


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:36:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what other polls? (2.00 / 2)

I just ran across this new Pew Poll which is not favorable to Clinton in anyway:

Obama leads Clinton nationally

THE NUMBERS

Barack Obama, 49 percent

Hillary Rodham Clinton, 39 percent

OF INTEREST:

The two rivals' standings in the Pew Research Center poll have changed little from late February, the latest indication that so far Obama has weathered the controversy over provocative sermons by his longtime pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080327/ap_o n_el_pr/poll2008_national

So, in this poll he hasn't lost any standing at all, despite the Wright controversy, very interesting.


by Wary on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:44:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what other polls? (none / 0)

Those polls taken many weeks apart don't show what actually happened with Obama and Clinton's standing. Obama's went down significantly, then went back up after the (hillary-hating) media climaxed over his Philly speech. Go here and scroll down a little:

http://pollingreport.com/wh08dem.htm


We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.
by fairleft on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:09:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gallup sex Obama & Clinton basically tied (none / 0)

Nobody knows, though, really. Below are the Gallup tracking polls since March 7. The yellow highlighted days are the only statistically significant (margin of error of 3%) days:

Photobucket

http://pollingreport.com/wh08dem.htm


We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.
by fairleft on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:04:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What's a gallup sex? (none / 0)

It sounds fun...


by David in AK on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:29:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 3)

That wasn't even about that. It was an even-handed and thoughtful post, one that actually spoke well about the party instead of a candidate.

You, sir, are a troll of the worst magnitude.


by vcalzone on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

You are 100% correct.  I'm surprised this wasn't written in all caps, as usual.


by Cycloptichorn on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:44:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 2)

Why are we siting MSNBC opinion pieces and polls as fact when other opinion pieces and polls diff wildly?

I expected better from you, Todd. Stop buying into the MSM narrative.


by americanincanada on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:20:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

"Why are we siting MSNBC opinion pieces and polls as fact when other opinion pieces and polls diff wildly?"

Current ones? Do share.


by rhetoricus on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:51:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

Gallup's daily tracking polls, See my post above.


We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.
by fairleft on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:06:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

Yeah - especially when other polls say the opposite - like this:

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/barone/2008/ 03/25/polls-show-obama-damaged-by-revere nd-wright.html

Add that to the fact that MSNBC ha to explain that they OVERSAMPLED AA's in the poll - you know, the people least likely to be affected by the Wright comments and probably the most likely to like Obama's speech and support him anyways?


by cmugirl90 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:25:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 1)

Once again, oversampling is done to provide statistically significant results on certain sub-groups. The overall results are weighted by the general population, so it has no impact on the top-lines of the poll.


by thinman on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:03:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 1)

Over samples but not over represented. There is a difference. This is called stratified sampling. It's a good thing to know when you're looking at polls.


by Glic on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:04:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 1)

Oversampling does not mean what you think it means.


by Brannon on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:29:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 1)

Get your facts straight. They oversample smaller populations so the accuracy of the statistical sample equals the larger groups. They then ADJUST before including them in the full poll results so they are not over represented. NBC confirmed that is in fact what they did.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 008/03/27/827746.aspx


by hankg on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 08:25:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

please explain (none / 0)

not sure how combining the opinions of 100 more AA's into the 77 and adding that result, esp. considering it's got an MOE of over 7%, gives any better result than adding the 177. And how is the higher MOE factored in?


by desert dawg on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 09:37:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: please explain (none / 0)

When pollsters poll a population, they don't poll exactly 13% AAs, 11% caucasian Hispanics, 53% women, etc., etc.  They poll who they get to a significant sample size, then weight the responses so that the answers they DID get are proportionally represented in the final number.

In this case, they wanted to know what AAs thought in particular, and they needed some minimum number of them to get a number with statistical significance.  So they surveyed more of them ON PURPOSE and weighted them less.  The adjustment ss the same thing that happens in every poll randomly, it was just forced into the effect.


by Rorgg on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 12:33:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: please explain (none / 0)

and the higher MOE?


by desert dawg on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 09:48:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: please explain (none / 0)

Not sure what you're asking here -- yes, the smaller sample size has a bigger MoE than the group as a whole, but lower than it would if it were a proportional percentage... which is the whole point of oversampling: to reduce the MoE on your subset.


by Rorgg on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 09:12:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: please explain (none / 0)

If your going to troll rate my comment in a different diary, you could at least give an explanation. Nothing I said was inflammatory. Defend yourself if you will.


by zep93 on Thu Apr 03, 2008 at 05:50:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 8)

You know it is really a bizarre world we live in , She can have the Kitchen sink thrown at her by the Obama campaign and she gets the blame for it anyway.

The whole Kitchen sink stuff is just a bunch of crap , what exactly has she said to criticize Obama anyway.

The woman barely mentions his name.

Yet there is some kind of myth out there that she is throwing the Kitchen sink at him.

The last time I checked it was his campaign that has been viciously calling her a liar etc

I would be curious to know what exactly this kitchen sink is , outside of media crap.


this country it belongs to folks like me and you ,so let the voice of freedom sing out through this land this is our country
by lori on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:35:20 PM EST

erm, (2.00 / 2)

His campaign? or his random supporters? sources please?


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:37:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Surely you jest (2.00 / 1)

Ever since they hired Greg Craig as a spokesman, he has been litigating this campaign.  Picking at and criticizing every single thing she says and replaying it in the worst sort of light imaginable.  Every morning the daily Obama memo drips with anti-Clinton bile.  Several national commentators, and I'm not talking about the usual pro-Clinton suspects but people like Mark Halperin and Mark Armbinder, have noted how extremely vicious and personal the Obama campaign has been lately.


by Trickster on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:18:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Surely you jest (none / 0)

Do you have links to any of these items from the Obama campaign?  I'm honestly interested in reading them, because I haven't seen much negative coming from Obama recently that I can remember.


by ChrisKaty on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:30:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Surely you jest - linky.... (none / 0)

...To the Obama campaign calling her a liar as you attest?


by Glic on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:05:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

OK (2.00 / 1)

The Obama campaign excreted this vileness last Friday.

But, better than any one thing, and without forcing me to open your eyes to reality, I suggest you bookmark, or otherwise keep an eye on, Mark Halperin's The Page for time.com.  Every morning Halperin gives you the material from the two campaigns' morning conference calls, unfiltered.

I believe he has archives, so you can go back and check it out on a day-by-day basis.  They were pretty bad right straight along, but the Obama camp has been quite odious since Wright came out.


by Trickster on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 08:28:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am sorry (none / 0)

are we not allowed to question her experience?

If I recall correctly she started the whole "he is not qualified to be C-in-C"


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 09:04:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Experience? (none / 0)

That's a whole long page of "she's a big liar."  And most of it extremely argumentative and relying on unknowledgeable sources.


by Trickster on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 09:10:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

how is this different (none / 0)

then talking points by Clinton campaign about his "not being vetted", his "lack of experience", his not readiness, his this or his that?

If you read an email from Hillary about that, you would be like, well this are good points she raising how will she answer that.

Obama's campaign basically made an argument that her experience as a first lady does not equate to actual executive experience. Then instead of being vague they detailed their concerns.

You are free to disprove them, to point out inconsistencies and such.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 09:19:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

correction (none / 0)

typo: how will HE'll answer that.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 09:19:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're missing my point (none / 0)

And the memo's point as well.

That memo is NOT about experience.  It's a thinly disguised accusation that she is a big liar.  She's accused of lying--on quite thin evidence--in each of those points.

The conclusion is what, that Obama's experienced?  Of course not, it's:

And Barack Obama does not use false charges and exaggerated claims to play politics with national security.


by Trickster on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 09:25:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

so hold on a sec (none / 0)

How does one question the validity of someones statements then?

I mean if I say I helped bring about end of WWII by donating my salary to the war effort, does that qualify as doing as the generals who planned Normandie.

I mean look at this statement from the memo:

Point by point:

  • She did not sit in on National Security Council meetings.

  • She did not have a security clearance.

  • She did not attend meetings in the Situation Room.

  • She did not manage any part of the national security bureaucracy, nor did she have her own national security staff.

  • She did not do any heavy-lifting with foreign governments, whether they were friendly or not.

  • She never managed a foreign policy crisis, and there is no evidence to suggest that she participated in the decision-making that occurred in connection with any such crisis.
  • These are true.


    -- be excellent to each other
    by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 09:46:05 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Surely you jest (none / 0)

    And Clinton's Wolfson and Penn and Singer don't?

    PLEASE.


    by gabbie on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:59:17 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 1)

    She has thrown very little at him HERSELF.  Her rep's on the other hand have thrown everything they could get their hands on.


    Liberal in So Cal
    by lqbruin on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:38:58 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 2)

    So the Obama surrogates haven't done the same thing to her ?

    Its just weird the way things work.

    Fact #3: In recent days, the Obama campaign has used e-mails and conference calls to engage in its most negative and personal assaults on Clinton since the campaign began.

    http://thepage.time.com/halperins-take-i f-obama-has-the-nomination-wrapped-up-wh y-is-his-campaign-going-after-clinton-so -hard/


    this country it belongs to folks like me and you ,so let the voice of freedom sing out through this land this is our country
    by lori on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:42:16 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 1)

    I don't know what you are talking about.  But, assuming it is true, Obama's team is doing the throwing in a way that looks more civilized.  I know  this point seems unfair, but those are the results.  Her side looks petty and mean.  His side looks like they are above it all.  I would rather neither side threw anything underhanded, but if they must, at least they make it look like something else.


    Liberal in So Cal
    by lqbruin on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:47:41 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 1)

    Yes you would have to actually click on the link to know what (s)he is talking about. So you must plead ignorance ....


    by redwagon on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:09:00 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Actually, *you* should click the link (none / 0)

    The link only speculates about why Obama's campaign might be attacking Clinton, it provides no substantiation that it actually is attacking Clinton.


    by David in AK on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 09:06:46 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

    When one throws the 'kitchen sink" as the Clinton campaign honchos said they had to do a time back, then it's fair game to fight back,

    AND to NOT fight back is an unreasonable expectation as the Clinton campaign has attempted to portray the Obama campaign--

    Clinton camp, supporters attacks Obama, then when he responds they begin with 'hey we thought you were for a POSITIVE campaign and yet here you are attacking us'--

    now note that it's just NOT supporters here, but these polls demonstrate that many other Democrats are seeing the very same thing and they don't like it either.

    Also on issues, such as NAFTA when Clinton has made claims that she ALWAYS opposed it, well, that issue became fair game, as it is noted in the diary that her attacking Obama on 'just words', etc, so when Obama pulled up actual 'words' of hers from the past in SUPPORT of NAFTA she claimed 'foul'--sorry that's not 'negative' since it was the truth.

    If things are fair on one side, then they are on the other side as well.


    by Wary on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:35:40 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 1)

    It seems as that, when one Clinton supporter used the "kitchen sink" phrase back in February, for the first time in this campaign, somebody in the Clinton camp was actually taken at his word.  Taken as an absolute article of faith, too, because I see that quoted all the time and pretty much inevitably without any substance at all to back it up.  Just "she's throwing the kitchen sink" or "Clinton's kitchen sink strategy," but never never any examples of what the speaker means by the reference.

    In fact, Clinton has been running a relatively gentle campaign.  Obamaphiles just love to cite the thing she said about Obama and McCain and the CIC test, and you know what, I agree that she went a step too far with that, but she said it ONE TIME and if you guys really thought it would damage Obama so badly in the general then maybe you shouldn't keep coming back with it in every other breath.

    Then she made some measured comments about Wright, in response to an interview question.  Again, a one-time thing, and I don't know why she did it, but I have heard the suggestion that after seeing the polling on Wright she was told it was imperative that she get on the record because her silence was lumping her in with Wright and Obama.  And really, that's all she has done: get on the record with a measured response to a question.  She hasn't pushed the story at all.

    So really, what is it that Obama is "fighting back" against that makes his top media guys want to viciously attack Hillary's character day after day after day?  Give me some specifics, please, because I really don't know.


    by Trickster on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 08:36:41 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

    In case anyone is wondering. The link presents absolutely no evidence of Obama launching negative attacks on Hillary. It's just a list of reasons why Obama's campaign might want to launch such attacks even while ahead--along with a vague disturbing photoshop job of Obama as Sammy Davis Jr. in an old ratpack photo.


    by Brannon on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:33:35 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (1.00 / 1)

    Yeah, the new politics is to not say anything and let your campaign run your propaganda through back-channel maneuvering. So honestly, it could be coming from either Hillary OR the GOP.


    by vcalzone on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:41:09 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 2)

    Oprah can throw a kitchen sink but she can get away with it, cause she is likeable. Obama is a steel fist in a velvet glove but he is very likeable.
    He can get away with it. Al Gore and Kerry can't cause they're not likeable.

    Hillary on the oher hand. There is something about her i just don't like. Same feeling i had with Richard Nixon.


    McCain: The Past, Obama: The Future
    by KathyM on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:42:50 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (1.00 / 2)

    It is very odd. Hillary's supporters think she is wonderful and they think Obama is very unlikeable - arrogant and posturing, to say nothing of being lazy and inexperienced. That's why more of them won't vote for him if he is the candidate. It is strange how blind some of you are.


    by georgiast on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:19:32 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

    You're calling Barack Obama lazy? Really? Do you have any evidence for that?

    The only explanation I can think of for why someone would believe that is not the sort of thing one mentions in polite company.


    by seand on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:41:56 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Lazy? - those are fighting words (2.00 / 4)

    Well I'll reply to it, polite company or no.
    Given the grueling campaign schedules both candidates keep, don't see how anyone can call either lazy.

    Given the well-oiled campaign Obama has run - don't know how anyone can call him disorganized.

    "Lazy" is a euphemism for "shiftless, lazy...negro".  Heard it for years, down South. While the "lazy negros" picked bales of cotton, built roads and bridges, and were worked  to death.

    Let's just call a spade a spade shall we.  
    I'm sick and tired of reading these low down, rotten back-stabbing type of not so subtle attacks from Democrats.  Save all your venom for McCain please.  Or keep your mouth shut.
    Or better yet, get the hell out of a Democratic forum, because only a troll could possibly use those words to critique Barack Obama (I hope)


    Anthropologists for human diversity; opposing McCain perversity
    by NeciVelez on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:57:12 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Lazy? - those are fighting words (2.00 / 1)

    you said it alot better than I could have and I thank you for it.


    by Tunk on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:38:43 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Please stop with the stereotypes (2.00 / 1)

    I think Obama has plenty of charisma which Hillary lacks, I don't think he's arrogant at all, but I do think he's inexperienced.
    But I will vote for him if he wins the nomination.
    Will you be voting for Hillary if she wins?
    by skohayes on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:47:29 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Dog Whistle Phrasing (none / 0)

    "Arrogant" = "uppity negro"

    "Lazy" = "Well, you know how all THOSE people are."

    Seriously. Arrogant? Lazy? Got a SINGLE example to back these up? Obama is polite, self-effacing, and conciliatory to a huge fault--so much so that Edwards feared he wouldn't be enough of a "fighter." His phrasing of "we" is drastic against Clinton's relentless "I." "Arrogant" and "Lazy"-- are ridiculous, clearly racist characterizations. They are just as bad as the GOP calling Hillary "the bitch," "ambitious," "frigid," "ballbusting," etc. Enough with the gender/race BS.

    Why can't Clinton's camp criticize Obama's proposed policies, or his record in the Senate, or things he actually says he believes (not things his minister has said that Obama has disavowed). Really, Clinton has a stronger health care program. Some of her economic solutions are more specific. THESE are the things grow-ups campaign about.


    by rhetoricus on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:03:37 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (1.00 / 3)

    Hillary is a liar. What else would you call someone who lies? about things that don't need to be exaggerated.

    but in any regards, it looks as if you ask for specific instances in where Hillary herself attacks Obama but you attack Obama's entire campaign team for "viciously" calling her a liar.

    keeping things apples to apples and not apples to oranges might be a good approach to this topic.


    by alex100 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:45:43 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 1)

    I might as well call Obama a liar for saying he didn't know his pastor of 20 years was saying those hate filled words .

    However that would make me look like a delinquent juvenile.


    this country it belongs to folks like me and you ,so let the voice of freedom sing out through this land this is our country
    by lori on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:53:56 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

    I take it you still haven't seen those clips in context?  There was no hate there.


    by Whash on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:01:46 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

    call him what you want.

    I'm not going to get into a he said, she said dumb-fest.


    by alex100 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:04:12 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 1)

    Um, yeah, he said he wasn't present for the particular speech 2003 that's been run on an endless loop, and his absence has been proven.

    He did say he'd heard Rev. Wright say controversial and angry things. I am white and I heard no hate.

    Black people don't have the institutional power to disenfranchise white people en mass like the other way around, so inflammatory speech has VERY different consequences, depending on where you hail from. Anti-black racist speech has the power of the bully behind it, while angry speech toward whites is pointing at institutional injustices. Qualitatively different things. Calling it all "hate speech" is really a misrepresentation.


    by rhetoricus on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:14:29 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

    The fact that the Rev's tirade was all true never hurts, either.


    by ReillyDiefenbach on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 08:14:28 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 1)


    No kidding, right?  I don't know why the media narrative is that Hillary's at fault for being negative against Obama, yet what the Hell has she done this past week except work the Bosnia junk thrown at her?  When Wright is brought up by OTHER to her, she responds appropriately.  She isn't doing anything.  What kind of world is this?
    by BrandingIron17 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 08:24:36 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

    what the Hell has she done this past week except work the Bosnia junk thrown at her?
    Well, she's the one that threw it--that one's a self-inflicted wound.


    by David in AK on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 09:12:16 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    I really have (2.00 / 8)

    the feeling is that Penn simply does not know what to do.

    I still think that if Hillary run her own campaign rather then have Penn and others take it over, should would have fared better.

    just my 2 cents.


    -- be excellent to each other
    by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:36:01 PM EST

    Re: I really have (2.00 / 5)

    She was reportedly going to fire him after Iowa, but backed off after NH.  Horrible mistake.  

    And I still don't get the lack of reporting on the ties between Penn and the McCain campaign....  You'd think this is the kind of thing her supporters would be upset about.


    by Whash on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:42:23 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: I really have (none / 0)

    she really should have won this thing.

    All she needed was someone to tell her to contest every state and this thing really would have been over on Feb 4th.


    by alex100 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:49:16 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (1.83 / 6)

    Definitely. We need to understand exactly who we're running against. If both candidates stop fighting with each other and speak about each other positively, we will see positive results.

    Imagine how lovely it would be to spend the months leading up to the Democratic convention with both our nominees competing to see who can do the best job of knocking down John McCain! They can beat the hell out of one of them, but they can't beat the hell out of both of them. Not yet. Let's focus on that.


    by vcalzone on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:37:14 PM EST

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

    That squid troll is getting very annoying.


    by NewOaklandDem on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:15:00 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 2)

    What her highly paid campaign staff don't understand is that Obama is very likeable. That means no matter what you do, things will no stick to him. He can easily deflect it.
    He is as nice as Reagan was. I like both of them.

    Hillary reminds me of that man Nixon.  


    McCain: The Past, Obama: The Future
    by KathyM on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:38:31 PM EST

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 2)

    How many times are your going to repeat that HRC reminds you of Nixon in this thread.

    We heard you the first time-- Geez.


    by bellarose on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:46:43 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Reagan was evil. (none / 0)

    He did so much bad.  Bush is the continuation of Reagan.

    And you like Reagan?  

    Scary.


    by TomP on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:15:40 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

    You're right. And another thing her highly paid campaign staff did not understand is that against a very likeable opponent she looks horrible on top of the fact she unliked from the start


    by Tunk on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 10:54:42 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

    If this is what President Clinton meant when talked about "putting on the pads," then I'm all for it.  Keep it tough, but CLEAN.  Alas, I am sure he was also saying that a few illegal hits here and there were okay.  That is the problem.  We need to take the high road.  All in America besides the dittoheads want that.


    Liberal in So Cal
    by lqbruin on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:41:19 PM EST

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (1.00 / 7)

    MSNBC and fellow MSMers are hell-bent-for-heaven to get her out of the race.

    Not going to happen.

    The lying pollsters--from New Hampshire to California to Texas--are no longer believed, by anybody except those in Obama World.  And of course, their fellow Clinton-hating bloggers.  At this point, the pollsters have nothing left to do but lie.  Obama is their man and he's not making the sale.

    She's going to do brilliantly in Pennsylvania, West Virginia and Kentucky.

    Obama will be the candidate largely of Red State America.

    Now there's a nominee the Democratic base--Blue State America--can rally around!


    by lambros on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:41:40 PM EST

    there are no (2.00 / 2)

    blue states and red states. There is only United States!!


    -- be excellent to each other
    by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:43:30 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: there are no (none / 0)


    LOL
    by BrandingIron17 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 08:33:35 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    I was serious. (none / 0)


    -- be excellent to each other
    by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 09:01:35 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 2)

    What pollsters are lying, and what have they lied about?


    by Whash on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:44:23 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    She'll be out after North Carolina, at the latest (none / 0)

    I'm laying down my marker. You can bookmark this and come back and dump on me if I'm wrong, but I'm not.


    by Travis Stark on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:44:36 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    I think you missed (2.00 / 0)

    the last week and a half when HRC supporters were using them to say she is winning.


    -- be excellent to each other
    by kindthoughts on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:46:15 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 1)

    If polls lied, wouldn't there be a pattern of Clinton over performing the polls?  I haven't seen any evidence of that happening in general.


    Beat McCain!
    by thezzyzx on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:56:03 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 1)

    Didn't the GOP carry WV and KY in both 2000 and 2004? Are these the Blue states that prove HRC should be the nominee?

    Or are Red states only important when your candidate wins there?


    Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
    by Carl Nyberg on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:59:25 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Bill Clinton won KY and WV in 1992 and 1996 (none / 0)


    by bluestatedude on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 11:12:48 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

    Todd,

    Have you heard anything about the WSJ poll being skewed?  AAs are apparently over-represented for reasons I don't yet understand.  

    Can you explain?


    by bellarose on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:43:42 PM EST

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 2)

    They were over-sampled. Which means that they knew they weren't going to hit many AAs randomly, so they kept polling them even after they hit their target number. But since including that many would skew the polls, they averaged them out back in proportion to the REAL sample size.


    by vcalzone on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:48:09 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

    It's like in school, where you might have 13 homework assignments, but they drop the lowest 3. Except without the "lowest" part. :-)


    by vcalzone on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:51:31 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 2)

    They weren't over-represented. They were oversampled to control what would otherwise be a very high margin of error on the AA group. Once the data was taken, they weighted the results so that the AAs would be represented in their normal numbers.


    by tessellated on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:49:33 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

    Quick idea of why they "oversample"....in a sample size of 700 the overall MoE was a little over 3%. With only 77 blacks, the MoE for blacks would have been over 11%. This way it was 7.x%. I think my numbers are right, doing this from memory, but I hope that gives an idea of why they oversample subgroups - it's called stratified samplings.


    by Glic on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:22:32 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 2)

    That was misunderstood.

    They did sample more AA's in order to get fine gradation on some AA specific questions, but for general questions, they discounted that portion of the sample down to achieve neutrality.

    So the results aren't distorted.


    I ain't worried. We got more pigs in our pen.-- Rasheed Wallace
    by wrb on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:51:45 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (none / 0)

    OK, but please point me to where is tells me that in the poll data? i dont want to go digging through 15 pages of pdf to verify that. thanks.


    by the Walrus on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:07:05 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 3)

    They weren't over represented, they were oversampled purposefully.  The results were then re-weighted to get rid of the bias introduced by oversampling them so that the representation at the end wasn't too high.

    Basically they polled extra black people because their responses were extremely skewed in one direction (probably something like 100% of their respondents were saying Obama).  When one group is skewed that far and is a relatively small population group, it can be hard to pick out any differences (ie. the ~10% or so that choose Clinton), so they poll extra people in that group, and then re-weight the poll afterwards so that that over sampling doesn't skew the whole poll.

    Say you poll 700 people, 70 of them were Black.  The MoE from just 70 people (in this case Blacks) is extremely high, so they poll extra Blacks to get a more accurate number (lower MoE), and then re-weight it so that the extra Blacks aren't throwing off the numbers of the whole poll.

    This is a very common technique in polling, used frequently with minorities, and especially Blacks because we tend to vote so strongly as a block.  


    by Whash on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:55:53 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Or..... (none / 0)

    they do it until they get the result they want or think is correct.


    by georgiast on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:31:54 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Or..... (none / 0)

    That's what they say on RedState. However, once a pollsters credibility is shot they can't sell their stuff - and the results will typically bear out who was the most accurate.


    by Glic on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:23:59 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 1)

    They were oversampled to get a more accurate sense of what Wright's impact was. They were not over-represented, however, and the math is the math. This is not a knock of you in the slightest, but I've read some people here arguing that certain polls are "biased." Look at the margin of error - the math is the math. These aren't "skewed" towards Obama or Clinton.
    by Pat Flatley on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:05:58 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 3)

    He is going to win the traditional Blue states.  There are no doubts about that.


    Liberal in So Cal
    by lqbruin on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:43:55 PM EST

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (1.20 / 5)

    Be careful, Jerome's not going to let you post anymore if you keep writing even handed diaries like this.  Aren't you aware of the "all diaries must reiterate HRC talking points" policy on this site?


    by caprog on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:44:47 PM EST

    Its sad (1.40 / 5)

    What about the obama tactics of lying about Bill Clintons wordds and saying he was being a modern day Mccarthy, when any bug with half a brain who listened to his actual words would know he wasnt even talking about Obama.

    Or how about the repeated charges of Hillary is "A DECEITFUL, LIAR" being driven foorweeks  now by the obama campaign?

    Any complaint from the "fairness" refs at MSNBC about that?

    Its sad to watch Dems buy into MSM narratives.  Its sad, so very sad.


    by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:45:55 PM EST

    Re: Its sad (none / 0)

    Yes it IS sad. Particularly sad to see that the media's efforts to get the candidates to start sniping at each other have paid off so well.


    by vcalzone on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:54:10 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Its sad (2.00 / 1)

    Why is it that discredited politicians and their supporters always blame the media when shit goes the wrong way. She LIED. Get over it. Misspeaking is a Clintonian word for LYING.

    All too often you conflate overzealous Obama supoprters with his actual campaign.

    Do you not see that you paint your fellow Dems as dim-witted idiots when you say they are duped by the media as if they can't make up their own mind. Consider that if Dems had bought in to an MSM narrative Hillary would have been the nominee before the first ballots were cast in Iowa.

    She has been beaten by a better campaigner, who raised more $$$ and ran a more efficient campaign. Pure and simple. The sooner you realize that the better.


    by AHunch on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:15:18 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Its sad (none / 0)

    Ok, let's change the verbiage. HRC has been known to 'mispeak' on multiple occasions. Is that better?

    Different words, same end result. She has verifiably made stuff up in order to augment her experience argument (Bosnia) or misrepresented her previous position (NAFTA).


    by tysonpublic on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 06:42:38 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    I dunno (2.00 / 1)

    I'm as anxious as the next Obama supporter for this primary to be over, but this is just one poll. You can find some corroborating evidence in state primary polls, but that's not enough to declare a trend.

    I really am dreading a brokered convention. What an awful, ugly mess that would be.


    by tessellated on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:47:01 PM EST

    Re: I dunno (none / 0)

    Two polls actually.  The Pew poll backed this up.


    Beat McCain!
    by thezzyzx on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:58:01 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: I dunno (none / 0)

    the pew poll looks legit. this one does not.


    by the Walrus on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:03:03 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: I dunno (none / 0)

    Does the Pew poll speak to Hillary's favorability rating amongst democrats tanking like the MSNBC poll does?


    by tessellated on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:06:29 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: I dunno (2.00 / 1)

    Some of them, yes.  43% of WHITE Democrats call her hard to like, and 30% call her phony.


    Beat McCain!
    by thezzyzx on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:58:21 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: I dunno (none / 0)

    Those numbers can't be good news to her campaign. Thanks for the follow up.


    by tessellated on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:55:20 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 4)

    It is impossible for Hillary to make headway in an environment where the media calls foul every single time she tries to draw a distinction with Obama.  Whatever she says, the punditocracy immediately declares it a low blow - but you can say literally ANYTHING about Hillary Clinton and the response will be a collective shrug.

    How many pundits have pointed out how offensive it is to compare Hillary to Tonya Harding?  How many Obama supporters have you seen denounce the comparison?

    It's very difficult for me, as a Democrat, to see the media decide our nominee by pushing the same sort of hateful narrative they used to defeat Al Gore in 2000.


    "Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
    by Steve M on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 05:49:46 PM EST

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 1)

    She just can't catch a break , can she ?

    I would be interested to know if Todd can point out exactly what Kitchen sink she has thrown at him , outside of media propaganda.

    Rather it is his camp that actually attacks her viciously in e-mails and memos.

    The guys in her camp , in terms of howard wolfson etc , I don't think I have ever heard them attack him the way she has been attacked personally by the obama camp.


    this country it belongs to folks like me and you ,so let the voice of freedom sing out through this land this is our country
    by lori on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:07:54 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 2)

    Well, these have always been the Clinton Rules.  Heck, if someone told me she was unelectable in November because the media is guaranteed to savage her like this every step of the way, it wouldn't be very fair but I'm not sure I could prove them wrong.

    Of course, around here you'll find all sorts of people who think the reason Hillary gets portrayed as the Wicked Witch of the West is that it's true.  Not much to do but ignore these people.

    She made an extremely innocuous comment about Wright - "he wouldn't have been my pastor" - and there's an instant media frenzy about how horrible it is that she decided to reignite the Wright controversy.  You never heard from these media members the fact that Obama himself brought up Wright earlier in the day.  The discussion is entirely about how mean Hillary is.

    And I can't say I have ever seen a feeding frenzy on a typical political exaggeration like I have seen on this Bosnia thing.  Who would be President if they had scrutinized Bush's National Guard service this way?  Where would we be on Iraq if they directed the same ridicule at politicians like McCain who walk around Baghdad under heavy military escort and then try to tell you it's as safe as Indiana in the summertime?

    It can be very difficult to see the world as it is when everyone else insists on seeing it differently.  The absurd media narrative of this campaign is a classic example.


    "Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
    by Steve M on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 06:20:42 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (2.00 / 1)

    I agree with this post, Clinton is trashed most severely and Obama is given a pat on the back no matter what he does, he is their chosen ONE.  the problem with it is that can change, they can just as easily begin to savage Obama if they are rewarded with the destruction of Clinton.  fortunately, the base of the democratic party doesn't seem to be voting that way at all.


    democrat voter
    by democrat voter on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 07:30:13 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: The Consequences Of The Kitchen Sink (