Blooming Silliness

When I first started reading political blogs, I checked two on a regular (okay, daily) basis: Dkos and MyDD. I enjoyed both but in different ways. I lurked for a while on both, and first started posting at Dkos. It wasn't until recently that I got the courage to start regularly posting here. Why? This place intimidated me. Chris Bowers gave a pretty good explanation of why (here):

Within the progressive blogosphere, our relative influence far exceeds our relative traffic levels... Rather than a community blog, MyDD tends to be a professional blog.

I was intimidated because the discourse on MyDD always felt more reasoned, more knowledgeable, more professional. This, I think, was a good thing; lurking at MyDD made me (at least feel) smarter.

Now, I know that, like flowers blooming in spring, silliness and stupidity will bloom during primary season. Certainly, blogtopia has been feeling much dumber and more divisive as of late. But, MyDD? Yes, I think it's safe to say that, even here, otherwise smart and level-headed progressives find themselves caught in the midst of silliness.

I'm going to try to deal with some of the sillier arguments floating around this primary season. I was an Edwards man through and through, so I don't really have a horse in this race. I do, however, lean Obama. But I doubt I'll make a lot of my fellow Obama supporters super happy; many of the arguments I'll dissect come from my own camp. And, obviously, much of what I say will probably piss off some of the more outspoken Clinton supporters, too. I hope--this is for the more partisan supporters on either side--that you do read this diary.

I hold no illusions about my writing; I don't think I'm going to change everyone's mind or make peace here at MyDD. Hell, I'm sure I'll say plenty of stupid things you all can pick apart in the comments, if you so desire. But, I hope that, at the least, some of you all read and comment and discuss what I bring up. I know that we can at least learn something of what "the other side" thinks, and maybe from there we can continue building that common framework from which real, mind-changing debate is possible.

The first--and most basic--set of silly arguments ignore a simple but extremely important principle--Occam's Razor. Jonathan Vogal puts it neatly as:

Other things being equal, a simpler explanation is superior to a more complicated one.

In other words, when trying to offer up an explanation for something, don't claim more than what you have evidence for. Here's a non-political example. Given the situation that you come home and your door is open, the house has been ransacked, and valuables are missing you could explain it as (1) I was robbed or (2) aliens did it. Now, unless you have evidence that aliens did it, explanation two is way more complicated (and way more unlikely) than explanation one.

Let's move this into political terms.

Senator Clinton almost cried a couple of times on the campaign trail.
(1): She's faking it to gain sympathy.
(2): She's a human being who feels human emotions.

Okay, do we have any strong evidence that Clinton was faking those tears? No. So, we can probably accept explanation two. In fact, given that politicians--like HRC--while they may be ambitious, also probably care about what they do. So, it's reasonable to think that one might be occasionally brought to tears when talking about the more emotional, important parts of what they do. Next.

Sen. Clinton uttered a falsehood (more than once?) about her experience in Tuzla (here and here).
(1) Sen. Clinton's a liar.
(2) Sen. Clinton misspoke.

When confronted with a falsehood--possibly a misstatement or possibly a lie--and when there is no strong evidence for an ulterior motive--that so-and-so lied--we should either (1) suspend judgment or (2) dismiss the explanation that there is an ulterior motive.

In this case, we don't really have any direct evidence that this was an intentional lie. What we have is something that happened twelve (I think) years ago and was in a dangerous area. Do I think it's a good thing that she misspoke? Of course not. But there really isn't much of a reason to think that this is anything much more than that, a misstatement.

This one's my personal favorite, and--apparently--cuts both ways (here and here):

Republicans have voted, in larger than average numbers for Sens. Clinton and Obama in various primaries and caucuses.
(1) This is an effort by Republicans to meddle in our primary process, and these Republicans have no intention of voting Democratic in the national election (some iterations of this argument claim that one campaign or another is actively soliciting these voters).
(2) On the whole, these Republicans are voting Democratic because they, well, want to vote Democratic--they like the candidate.

This one is a little more complex. There is some evidence: flyers, dittoheads, and more(?). I haven't seen anything other than weak anecdotal evidence. This is a strong claim, and everything I've seen has supported that a precinct captain here is using duplicitous tactics to get someone elected or that Rush Limbaugh is a blowhard. In other words, I've seen plenty of anecdotal evidence, but nothing that points to much of a systemic attack on our primary system.

I'm willing to buy that some Republican voters are doing this kind of thing. But, if you want to convince me--or, frankly, most anyone else--of a massive groundswell of false Republican support for Sen. _, than convince me! Show me the evidence.

I'm sure there are more of these kinds of things out and about, and I'm not going to try to address them all. So, moving on...

::

The next sort of faulty argument I'd like to address is that of the ad hominem attack. From Wikipedia:

Replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.

As an Obama supporter, there is really nothing as obnoxious as being called a cultist for supporting my candidate. Aside from the asininity of claiming that Obama supporters are anywhere on par with actual cultists, and aside from the inherent insult to people--like me--who genuinely believe that Obama would be a better president than Clinton, this kind of attack is tailor-made to ignore and ridicule an argument made by Obama supporters. If you want examples, ask, and I'll provide.

Perhaps more telling is that, when it is pointed out that the atmosphere here at MyDD is becoming increasingly intolerant and vitriolic, Clinton supports often point to Dkos, as if the fact that "DailyObama" (a quick aside: I'm fairly certain that I higher percent of diaries at MyDD are about Obama than at Dkos...) is an intolerant and vitriolic place makes it okay that it is here.

If supporters of Sen. Clinton have felt the sting of unwarranted TRs, "yawn..."s, mean-spirited rejoinders, and overly vitriolic comments at Dkos, then I would think that they would want to ensure that the same fate doesn't befall MyDD. I know that's probably preachy, but the tone here is extraordinarily frustrating.

::

Moving away from logical arguments to pragmatic arguments, I want to address the Wright scandal, Rezko, and allegations of race-baiting (on both sides). This is going to be more controversial, and I might catch some flak for this, but, whatever.

I just don't really care that much. I don't really care about what surrogates say. I don't really care about allegations of this or that. I just don't care that much about Wright-gate or all the alleged "race-baiting".

The outrage level on this site is out of control. In fact, I'M OUTRAGED by the outrage on this site. Politicians have thick skins, I think. If they don't, then they shouldn't be politicians. I don't have a lot of hard evidence to back up this claim, but, when push comes to shove, I don't think the country really cares all that much about the outrage and the vitriol and the winks and jabs.

When the general election comes, I'm going to vote for the Democratic nominee because they will both try to give us a better economy, better healthcare, a better foreign policy, a better environment, a better country. I think that it will be on the issues and the message not on the gaffes and allegations that this race will be decided.

As a part of this, these arguments about what the right will do with Wright or with Rezko or with Vince Foster or with any of this shit is counter-productive. The right is going to smear us no matter what. When they do, we'll fight back. The doom-and-gloom diaries about how this new "-gate" are going to prevent Obama or Clinton from winning in the GE are a part of the old, spineless, capitulating Democratic party, and have no place in the party of fighters we're trying to build.

::

All right. I'm done. What do you think?



Display:


Re: Blooming Silliness (1.75 / 4)

"Don't let it end this way. Tell them I said something"

-The last words of Pancho Villa


"Don't let it end this way; tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa
by shef on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:30:00 AM EST

Was with you all the way until... (none / 0)

...the last sentence. (Why'd ya' have to go and put that in?)

You clearly have an innate ability to narrate objectively about matters through a lot of haze. This impresses me to no end. Truly.

But, what the hell is this altruistic comment doing here?

The doom-and-gloom diaries about how this new "-gate" are going to prevent Obama or Clinton from winning in the GE are a part of the old, spineless, capitulating Democratic party, and have no place in the party of fighters we're trying to build.

If it's about winning in November, then it's about kicking the opponent's ass and knowing the opponent's m.o.

As far as the Rethug's are concerned, $100mm-$200mm in 527-sponsored media twists reality to the point where it coerces a lot of folks to vote as the sponsors navigate. Misstatements of truth--lies--are pounded into the word- and thought-tracks of the public to no end. Just ask Kerry about this with regard to the swiftboating media in '04.

Nowadays, the lie becomes the truth if you've got the financing behind it to repeat it often enough.

To not consider this in the strategic plans and efforts--and ultimately with regard to the support of any given Democratic candidate as our party's nominee--is to deny the reality of media manipulation circa 2008.

So, to conclude such an insightful and objective overview like your diary tonight with an altruistic and naive sentence is, IMHO, a bit of a disappointment.

Looking for an appropriate analogy, the only thing I can compare this to is the last few seconds of "No Country for Old Men." (A brilliantly done piece, with a really unfulfilling and abrupt closing scene.)

(I realize that comparing this diary to what many--including moi--consider to be the best film of 2008 is absurd. But, I've got to say that I'm going to make a point of reading everything that you publish from now on, with this being the first time I've had the privilege of doing that. Thank you!)


by bobswern on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:04:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Was with you all the way until... (2.00 / 2)

Well first, thank you, both for your flattering comments and for your response.

I'd say you make a fair point. I think I may have painted a bit too broad a stroke in that last bit.

I agree wholeheartedly with this:

To not consider this in the strategic plans and efforts--and ultimately with regard to the support of any given Democratic candidate as our party's nominee--is to deny the reality of media manipulation circa 2008.

You're absolutely correct that not to consider electablity issues and how the Reps. will distort and smear is political suicide. My objection is to taking a gaffe or an impolitic moment by one candidate or another, pointing out what the Reps. might do, and then claiming that all is lost.

We can't--and shouldn't--cower in fear each time we see a smear on the horizon, rather, we should (as you point out) consider strategic plans and efforts, and weigh this in the broader sense.

My point, poorly articulated, was that we need to keep in mind a broader perspective when considering electability issues. Too often, people will argue that because of Wright or Rezko, Bosnia or race, we should abandon a candidate out of fear of what Reps. will do.

Ack, I'm not sure I'm making sense, but, point well taken.


"Don't let it end this way; tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa
by shef on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:26:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah (2.00 / 2)

Though you do need to consider this stuff a bit, "fear of what reps will do" should never be your major concern.

They made John Kerry, a war hero, into a coward who shot himself in the ass to get purple hearts so he could run for president 30 years later.

If Jesus was the in the democratic primary, the republicans would make him into an ax murderer before Iowa.

It's silly to worry too much, just be prepared to fight back.  


by furiousxgeorge on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:42:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blooming Silliness (2.00 / 3)

I simply disagree with you about the race baiting issue, to accuse the Clintons and Geraldine Ferraro of racism is essentially "going nuclear" against a politician, and places anyone who supports them at risk of being branded a racist as well, so it is calculated to make a candidate radioactive.

As someone who has know these people and deeply respects their work for civil rights over their entire lifetimes, it is unconscionable to me that some one is willing to got to that length to deride his opposition, it has burned bridges between long time allies, and I feel it has been destructive to society as a whole.

I hope it backfires, big time, against the campaign that did it. There is plenty of proof, although people cannot talk about it all openly.

That is a central outrage that divides us, and I believe it is sincere and valid as a division.

I'm not about winning elections at all cost. I care about the issues, and will never vote for someone I cannot ethically agree with, and there is much too much that Obama has done in his career that I find unacceptable. I will never vote for someone I do not trust at all.


by 07rescue on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 06:05:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blooming Silliness (2.00 / 1)

Great post. Recommended


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:44:43 AM EST

Re: Blooming Silliness (2.00 / 1)

thanks. I love the sig line, by the way.


"Don't let it end this way; tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa
by shef on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:52:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blooming Silliness (1.75 / 4)

Sorry, but your candidate (and only your candidate) does have, at least in part, a cult-like base of supporters. That is not an ad hominem argument. And your candidate is the one who (1) first claimed to "transcend" the issue of race; (2) then played the race card for all it was worth to save his candidacy in South Carolina; and (3) has now gone back to claiming to "transcend" race because his "pastor" and "spirtual advisor" has been exposed as a racist and because there is only one State left to vote that has a large African-American population.

I find these types of "above it all" meta-diary are usually quite unconvincing. You are an Obama supporter. The fact that you were once an Edward supporter has little to do with it. You say, basically, "Why can't we all get along," now, when your candidate has finally been subjected to some scrutiny. Where was this sentiment when the Obama camp found a new and phony "racist outrage" everyday with the Clintons?

You talk about "race baiting" as if their was some equivalence between the two campaigns. There isn't. The Clintons had no motive to race bait. Hillary needs African American support in the Fall. And, again, sorry, but the facts simply don't support any theory that the Clinton campaign has race-baited. But the Obama campaign sure did, when it was to it political advantage.

And, it is not "silly" to point thes facts out. It is only disadvantageous to your candidate.


by freemansfarm on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:03:25 AM EST

Re: Blooming Silliness (1.00 / 1)

I find these types of "above it all" meta-diary are usually quite unconvincing. You are an Obama supporter. The fact that you were once an Edward supporter has little to do with it. You say, basically, "Why can't we all get along," now, when your candidate has finally been subjected to some scrutiny. Where was this sentiment when the Obama camp found a new and phony "racist outrage" everyday with the Clintons?

This, right here, freemansfarm, is an ad hominem attack. You didn't address the substance of what I had to say, rather, you said that since I'm an Obama supporter, I must have an ulterior motive for my desire for civility. You made me point for me.

I'm going to take the bait, though. If you go back through my comments and my diaries (and, even in this diary), you'll note that I don't just call out Clinton supporters, I call out Obama supporters as well. Does that get me past your ad hominem bar?

As for your first point about Obama's race baiting, etc. You're, once again, making my point for me. Show me evidence that Obama engaged is systemic, duplicitous race baiting, and, please, since its a rather big charge, make it strong evidence that actually conforms to strength of your claim.

Finally, I'm recommending your comment, because this is one of those "why can't we all get along" diaries. Not that that's really a big deal, but you might as well lap up the civility while you can. An ad hominem attack on a diary that is about the silliness of ad hominem might actually warrant a TR.


"Don't let it end this way; tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa
by shef on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:38:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blooming Silliness (2.00 / 2)

It's not an ad hominem attack. Pointing out the selective, or, more accurately, conveniently well-timed, nature of your concern for civility is not an attack on you, it is an attack on your argument. If civility is such a big concern of yours, and has always been so even when not to the tactical advantage of your candidate, then you should have pointed to your consistent endorsement of civility throughout the primary season, with supporting links, in your diary.

Again, I do not have to childishly take your word for what you say you are doing to avoid the dreaded label of ad hominem. Civility is now in your candidate's favor, therefore, it is not out of bounds for me to suggest that your call for civility is not entirely unrelated to an "ulterior motive."

Nor am I impressed with the token "even handedness" of your diary. Again, for the first time, your candidate is under attack. Hillary has always been under attack, by the media, by Obama, his surrogates, his campaign, and his supporters. When the fire was only burning her house, you and the other Obama supporters were not concerned about putting it out. Now that both her and Obama's houses are on fire, all fires are bad.

As for the race baiting issue, I have absolutely zero intention of "showing" you the evidence. This issue has been done to death on this website and throughout the blogosphere. I am not going to slog through all of the phony "racist outrages" du jour allegedly discovered by the Obama camp from NH on. They are all out there in the public record. Nor am I going to get into a tit-for-tat discussion of each one of these BS accusations with you or the host of other Obama supporters who will inevitably join in.

My opinion is that the race baiting is the fault of the Obama camp. You disagree, and think both sides were at fault. Fine. But, my opinion is not "silly." Nor is the isssue itself "silly" or illegitimate.

And the same goes with the "cult of personality." Again, in my opinion, the facts show that many Obama supporters have succumbed to this phenomenon. Cults of personality can lead to authoritarianism or even totalitarianism. And I find that frightening, even if you (with your above it all view) think it's "silly" or an "ad hominem" attack to mention this.


by freemansfarm on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 06:01:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blooming Silliness (none / 0)

It's an ad hominem attack because you're using the "conveniently timed" nature of my concern for civility to ignore the more substantial argument in my post. Apparently, you've latched on to the fact that I equated the two campaigns over the race-baiting issue.

But, sure, we'll ignore the fact that you're changing the subject away from the argument and to my own preference of candidate--the definition of ad hominem.

I do think that the issue of race baiting is somewhat silly, in that both sides bicker over who played the race card first and both sides are screaming about it, and, I doubt, the majority of voters will care who played what first when it comes time to vote.

Lastly, if I'm a member of a cult, then I'd sure like to see some evidence of it. You talk about facts. What facts? Have we been selling flowers at the mall and brainwashing people?


"Don't let it end this way; tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa
by shef on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 10:37:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blooming Silliness (none / 0)

I never said you were a member of a cult. Don't conflate yourself with all Obama supporters.

And, as with the race baiting issue, this is neither the time or the place to present proof. You chose to wrote a "meta diary." For the purpose of it, I am going to treat my views of certain issues, which are shared by many people, and the proof for which has presented in many past threads here and elsewhere, as, at the very least, defensible and legitimate. If you want to start another yet another diary about race baiting or cults of personality, go right ahead, and then you can demand proof of anyone who makes positive claims about them.

Morevoer, as I and others have demonstrated, the issue of the "race card" is not "silly," as it may sink our party in the Fall. Will you be laughing about it then? In any event, you are totally inconsistent about it. In your diary, you call it "silly" and say you don't care much about it. Then, in your first response to me you said it was a serious accusation (which it is). Now, you are back to saying it is "silly." You cavalierly claim that the voters won't "care" about it. While it's true that the voters might not care about which candidate "started it," they may very well react to the racial polarization resulting from (in my opinion) Obama's playing of the race card.

As for your "substantial argument," you don't have one. You want everyone to "just get along." Great. As I said, where was that from anyone in the Obama camp (and not just you), a month or so ago when it was crying "racist outrage" every day? It's not about you; it's not ad hominem. It's about the gross double standard and hypocricy that characterizes the whole Obama camp.


by freemansfarm on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:03:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blooming Silliness (2.00 / 2)

The diarist is absolutely right. And it's not the level of vitriol around here that bothers me -- it's the level of sanctimony. Take, for instance, the celebrity diarist and professional victim Alegre, who cuts and pastes attack diaries directly from Senator Clinton's website and then has the audacity to lecture others on civility.  

<blockquote>You talk about "race baiting" as if their was some equivalence between the two campaigns. There isn't. The Clintons had no motive to race bait. Hillary needs African American support in the Fall.</blockquote>

Yeah, except that it isn't the fall and Senator Obama's coalition of African Americans and white liberals is a winning one. I'm not suggesting that the Clintons have intentionally injected race into the campaign, but to pretend that it couldn't possibly be to their advantage is ludicrous. African Americans makeup perhaps 20% of the Democratic primary electorate at most. If it were possible to fracture Senator Obama's coalition on racial lines -- and American history certainly speaks to that possibility -- it would undoubtedly be to Hillary Clinton's advantage. You have to remember, it's Senator Obama's candidacy that's most endangered by the existence of racial tensions. He is, after all, the black guy.  


by RP McMurphy on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:23:11 AM EST

Awesome observation! (2.00 / 1)

How totally brilliant of you to deduce this about the man.

Last I checked, racial divisiveness in the U.S. was somewhere around....nowhere...in the top ten issues of concern to the average Dem voter.

In his brilliance, Obama has managed to turn this into his #1 issue, or at least he's used it to support his #1 issue: himself.

I'd love to hear what he's got to say, in terms of him making a conscious effort to shift the media narrative so that it's about his major addresses on housing, the economy, healthcare, the War in Iraq, etc. But, that's not happening. (I'm reminded about what he claims are his positions on these issues; but, I see little substance paid to these matters when the cameras are on him outside of a debate forum.)

Yes, in some ways, that's a sign of brilliance, in terms of how he's now driving this media narrative. But, in many other ways, it becomes loathesome to many voters to hear a candidate focusing on himself, or otherwise intangible emotions, slogans and nouns ("change," "yes we can," etc.), at what appears to be the expense of not concentrating on the meat and potatoes concerns of the typical John Q. Voter.

Did Hillary attempt to feebly inject new life into the Wright story over the past 24 hours? I'd say, objectively, yes. But, that was a tactical move not unlike many things Obama's done in recent weeks. So, I can't hold it against her. (I'm sure others responding to this comment will point out that this should be held against her; but, I disagree.)

So, to Obama, I now say something I've heard from others: "Show me something more than a feeling. And, if not for me, do it for the sake of shifting the media dialogue onto more substantive matters."

There's a lot of time between now and the Pennsylvania primary election, and I'm really getting awfully tired of this Seinfeld-like pissing war that's going on right now. Like Seinfeld, the Dem Primary's devolved into a show about nuthin' lately, IMHO.

Show me somethin' Barack! Show me somethin' Hillary!


by bobswern on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:40:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Awesome observation! (none / 0)

"Last I checked, racial divisiveness in the U.S. was somewhere around....nowhere...in the top ten issues of concern to the average Dem voter."

I think that would depend on how you define the "average Dem voter." Race is an issue that still affects the lives of millions of Americans daily. For many, it touches everything else--the economy, the war, education, and so on. Just because the country seems to have decided that we've 'solved' race, so let's move on, doesn't mean we have. I think for the most part Obama did a pretty admirable job of trying to minimize race as a factor in the election (I know others disagree); and now, after his big speech, he gets flack from one end for waiting until it was convenient for him (why not during Jena? why not during Rutgers?) and from the other end for even bringing it up at all (race is only an issue because he wants it to be). Both arguments, though somewhat contradictory, point to the trope that for Obama the election is really only about him, which goes against nearly everything he's said and done over the past fifteen years.

As to substance, I think he's trying to shift the conversation. That's why he gave two major speeches on the war after his race speech. Had he not given the speech on race earlier in the week, those two would have been big news--both very critical, insightful speeches, with lots of specific ideas and proposals. Both great speeches that I highly recommend.


John McCain is a coward. He has no honor.
by vadasz on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 06:37:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blooming Silliness (2.00 / 2)

First of all, you talk about sanctimony and civility, then you go right ahead and bash a pro-Hillary "celebrity diarist." You prove my main point to a T, meta-diarists, and posters, supposedly concerned about elevating the tone and restoring amity and good will all around, usually find that, oddly enough, most of the "bad stuff" comes from the other side.

As for the race-baiting, you couldn't be more wrong. I'm not sure where you came up with the 20% African American figure (it sounds low to me--I think you are confusing it with the percenage of Democratic voters in the general election), but, even if it's correct, that's a very large chunk of the Democratic nomination voters. As has been proven in many a primary, when Obama starts off with an 85 to 90% lock on that group, it is very difficult, if not impossible, for Hillary to make up those votes with the other groups. In addition, because of the way that delegates are apportioned by congressional district, African American votes are especially valuable in some states. Contrary to what you say, it was very much in Hillary's interest to retain support in the African American community during the primaries, as well as for the general election, but Obama saw to it that she did not.

Obama made himself "the Black guy" after NH, to secure his victory in SC, the other Deep South states, and the other states where Afican Americans are a big percentage of the primary electorate. And he did so after explicitly renouncing this tactic in Iowa and NH (which, obviously, have few African American voters). The Obama campaign intenionally and repeatedly exacerbated "racial tensions" in the whole run-up to SC and beyond. Apparently, he and his staff didn't share your viewpoint. It is only now, when Obama is being hoisted on his own "racist outrage" petard, and when there aren't so many African Americans left to vote in the primaries, that he has gone back into his racially "transcendant" mode.


by freemansfarm on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:42:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blooming Silliness (2.00 / 4)

"Take, for instance, the celebrity diarist and professional victim Alegre"

This a typical example of a foul ad hominem attack by an Obama supporter against someone who makes very effective arguments for Clinton and against Obama. It heightens the sense of outrage against the other side, when they resort to these tactics.


by 07rescue on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:57:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If nothing else - (none / 0)

Alegre has sharpened the arguments, so that both camps will be tougher when they go into the GE.

and why, tell me, should Alegre not state the HRC slant (and it's all slant really) - Sen. Obama must not be given a pass -- wait till the GE should he be there.  From my standpoint - and I am a Hillary supporter (though I would certainly vote for Sen. Obama in GE) why should we not set out her arguments.  

I always like Sen. Obama more when I am away from the blogs - and certainly the MSM likes him better too (which makes me suspicious).  He is a politician - he is not beyond politics.  Nor should he be -  He also works well with other politicians in Chicago/Illinois.  His "activist" days are behind him - let's move on to win the GE with either politician.    


by Xanthe on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 09:12:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blooming Silliness (2.00 / 2)

The Clinton's absolutely had no advantage to race bait.  It was the Obama campaign early on that needed to find a way to peel off the high level of support the Clinton's had with the AA community.  It was to Obama's advantage only to raise the issue of race in this primary season.  It is one of the reasons that I don't support Obama.  I watched his very calculated and cynical use of race to sink the Clinton's and there is no way they can fight back without being called racists.  This has created a very destructive division in the Democratic community.


by moonheart on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 06:51:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blooming Silliness (2.00 / 1)

You are absolutely correct. Obama cynically manipulated the race issue in order to destroy Hillary's multiracial coalition. He and his campaign knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Clintons are not racists. He knew that by injecting the issue of race into the campaign that he was hurting the party's chances in the general election. But he did it anyway because he had no other way to attack Hillary after her win in NH.

Obama supporters love to talk about how Hillary had no plan after Super Tuesday, how she and her advisors thought they would have the race sewn up by then, and, when they didn't, they were broke and in scramble mode. True enough. But Obama and his camp thought the race would be sewn up after NH. They thought that, by winning the first two elections in essentially all-white states, there would be no way for Hillary to compete. When Hillary pulled off the upset, he and his campaign did not know how to respond. There was no legitimate way they could attack her, so, on the very night of the NH election, they started in with their racial BS. They claimed, without a shred of evidence, that the "Bradley effect" had done them in. From there, they escalated the racial attacks, and made them on the Clintons directly.

Only now, when there is nothing more for Obama to gain, and a lot for him to lose, from the racial polarization that he and his camp deliberately injected into the campaign, and when he himself (and, I might add, much more plausibly than the Clintons ever were) has been implicated in a "racist outrage," does Obama think it's time to put the race card away.

And Obama and his supporters expect Hillary and her supporters to play along, in the name of "civility." The hypocricy stinks to high heaven! And, for a pro-Obama diarist to blandly state that he isn't interested in the question of race baiting, or to equate it with such nonsense as Vince Foster or the Bosnia remarks, means less than nothing to me.

This issue might destroy our candidate in the Fall. If it's Obama, he is now and forever the Black candidate who talked about "transcending" race, but then played the race card, and, all the while, was calling a Black racist his "spriritual advisor." This will hurt Obama with white voters outside the relatively liberal group that supports him in the primaries, and who he needs in the general election. If Hillary is the nominee, she will have a hard time regaining the support of African Americans that she needs to win in the general election.

But, the diarist wants us all of us here on MyDD to forget this, in the name of "civility." Well, if we lose in the GE because of Obama's manoever, I, for one, promise to remember it and to be less than civil in my appraisal of him.


by freemansfarm on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 07:20:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Blooming Silliness (none / 0)

Fair post, but too little, too late. This party is in war, and both sides will see it to the end...


by Check077 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 07:52:31 AM EST


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