Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins

As I wrote yesterday, Democratic registration in Pennsylvania hit new heights this week as Monday's deadline to register to vote in the April 22nd Dem primary passed. While it's unclear whom the party switchers benefit more -- as I've written before, Hillary Clinton has made inroads recently among both Independents and Republicans -- there is some evidence that perhaps this surge of new Democrats just may benefit Obama.

Although the final numbers are not yet in, so far registration has swelled 84,801 since the 2006 elections -- that's 11% of the 790,000 people who voted in the 2004 Democratic primary. Last week alone 50,347 people became Democratic voters, according to Pennsylvania's State Department, bringing the state party's total to over four million for the first time ever. Since the beginning of the year, 86,711 Republicans and Independents have switched affiliations, and in just the last three weeks 34,104 new voters registered as Democrats. Significantly, 64% of those who changed parties were in the 12 largest counties -- urban areas that have large African American and educated white populations, demographics that are Obama's strength.

Which led one local political scientist to utter those fateful words:

"I think he has a chance to pull off an upset here," said Ray Owen, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Pittsburgh. "The rates of changes in registration and new registrations indicate that some independents are joining the new voters in registering Democratic."

We're already seeing Obama assert himself in polling in Pennsylvania, having gained three points on Clinton in the latest Rasmussen Poll, bringing her margin down to 10 points, her smallest lead in the state since her March 4th victories. Add to that Obama's recent ad blitz and his forthcoming bus tour of the state, if history is any guide, polls are likely to close even more. But you have to think the Obama campaign would like to tamp down any "upset" narrative that might spring forth. We have seen this movie before after all. Remember New Hampshire, California and Ohio one can hear the Obama camp shouting, when polls showed him closing the gap, indeed even pulling ahead of Clinton, but her overperformance relative to expectations on election day went on to feed into a "she's alive" narrative that the Obama campaign would like to avoid in April. Right now, there is movement away from the sense that Pennsylvania is must-win for Clinton in favor of the notion that her victory is a foregone conclusion and instead that North Carolina is actually must-win, a narrative that the Clinton campaign is already pushing back against.

[Ace] Smith told Trail Mix that Barack Obama starts with a large advantage here and that if Clinton were to win on May 6, "it would probably be one of the greatest upsets, probably in the last 10 years." But Smith also said he expects North Carolina to be competitive and said the Clinton campaign will put in place "one of the biggest, deepest grassroots organizations that this state's ever seen."

Does Clinton have to pull off the upset to have a chance at the presidential nomination, as some commentators have suggested? Smith said no. "There's no question that a huge upset win in North Carolina would be great for the campaign," he said. "Is it absolutely necessary? The answer is we're just looking to run a strong campaign here."

The Clinton campaign has benefited most from expectations management thus far in the race. One wonders if this time team Obama can take a page out of their playbook and manage them a little better this time, although ultimately it's up to voters who have tended to break for Clinton on election day in these three key Clinton country states. What Obama needs to do to end this thing is to dramatically overperform expectations on April 22 and the only way to do that is to go all in in PA, risking inflating his poll numbers perhaps above reality. Making sure it doesn't backfire on him again is the fine lilne he's going to have to walk.



Display:


Expectations game is pretty much over (none / 0)

You can play that game in IA and NH, but now Clinton's in the end game.  Any losses at all are huge for her.  "Well I was supposed to lose this state by 12 but I only lost by 9," isn't a very persuasive argument for superdelegates.


But in the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope.
by thezzyzx on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:33:32 PM EST

The reverse is true as well for BO - I don't (none / 0)

see how he can parlay and 'only ten point loss in PA' as indicative of him being best suited to be the nominee this late in the game. SDs watching that will say Ouch - this guy is seriously weak even against his own party.

PA is a must win in November, hell Gore and Kerry had it in the bag and STILL came incredibly close. I think the SDs will be looking at that electoral mapr really closely.  


by Molee on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:54:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The reverse is true as well for BO - I don't (none / 0)

Unless you're suggesting that Clinton & McCain are pretty much the same candidate, Obama's performance in Pennsylvania against Clinton, particularly in an ostensibly Democratic primary, can't be said to be predictive of potential performance against McCain in a general election.

I agree that the expectations game is pretty much over. There's just too much inertia from past performance and the existing delegate count for "momentum" to count for much this late in the game.


by mhojo on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:05:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The reverse is true as well for BO - I don't (2.00 / 0)

No, that is very untrue. Every writer on this subject agrees that Obama doesn't have to win PA at all - it'll be seen as a win for him if he loses by 10. Hillary should have PA locked up since it's a home state for her. She has a long history there and a 10 point win for her would be an upset. In the GE he'll be running against McCain and a completely different situation.
by Becky G on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:14:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Every Writer" (none / 0)

Here we go again...another sweeping claim with absolutely nothing to back it up.

Every writer on this subject agrees that Obama doesn't have to win PA at all

Well try this Google search on for size:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q =obama%2B%22must+win%22%2Bpennsylvania&a mp;btnG=Google+Search&aq=f

When you're done looking at the string of writers who DO believe Pennsylvania is a "must-win" for Obama maybe you'll want to retract this comment.

Damn, I get tired of rebutting baseless claims like this.


by creeper1014 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:29:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Every Writer" (none / 0)

It seems to be a pretty baseless claim that Obama has to manage expectations. The real truth here is the HRC and her gang are losing. They want the narrative in the media to reflect that Obama is losing, even though, that is not the truth and hasn't been the truth for months. Essentially HRC and her defenders are trying to 'joy division' the inevitable defeat that is coming.

As for posting a google search where half the articles argue HRC must win PA, the first hit is a report of the HRC campaign conference call declaring that PA is a must win for Obama (hmmm... I wonder why the HRC campaign would say that). Please a google search an argument does not make.  Definitely not something one finds in the rhetoric books. I understand your need to decry absolutism of any kind, but using a google search is an even more fallible absolutism.

It seems that many people supporting HRC are still in the first stage of accepting their grief.

The truth is that women are still 2nd-class in this country, but HRC is not someone who represents the best in humanity. Her war vote proves that (she has blood on her hands). Whatever she may say. The notion that  the Wright controversy and what it means for Obama's character is somehow equivalent to her vote for the AUMF and what it means about her character (and her unwillingness for years to forthrightly say it was a mistake) is freaking absurd.

And I know there will be this and that and the other quote from Obama suggesting that he supported this and that and the other, but he has pretty clear for quite awhile about how stupid
and awful this war is. But hey, winning is the most important thing of all. So I guess I just convinced myself that HRC is going to win. Go Team Clinton.


blink blink blink blink blink blink blink blink
by liberty and fraternity on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 10:37:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

At a certain point, of course, "expectations" do cease to matter.  If he goes all in and still loses by, say, 7 points here that still makes it even more difficult for Senator Clinton to catch him in either pledged delegates or the popular vote.  

We're quickly running out of states, so at some point very soon -- no matter what the expectations are -- Clinton is going to need some HUGE victories.  I'm not one who believes it's all over now, but the onus is on Hillary to overcome significant odds.  


by HSTruman on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:33:39 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

He can't go all-in. Obama's the chip leader.  


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:19:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Wait, what?

I think Obama has a perfectly good strategy as it is: ride his massive advantage in pledged delegates allll the way to victory.

Here's Chris Bowers today, discussing just how wrong the scenario you propose is:


Here is an example of just how bad things are for Clinton. Even if Obama loses Pennsylvania by 20%, and then draws even in Indiana and North Carolina, two states where he currently holds double-digit leads, then Obama will need less than 40% (196.5 of 492) of the remaining delegates to reach 2,024. If a 20% Pennsylvania victory and ties in both Indiana and North Carolina actually put Clinton further from the nomination than she currently is, then yes, the delegate math is decisively stacked against Clinton.

Just for the hard of reading,

If Clinton wins BIG in PA, and ties in NC and IN - which we all know is pretty unlikely, but maybe it will happen - she will be FARTHER BEHIND then she is today!!!

There is no path to the nomination for Hillary, not through NC, not through PA, nowhere.  And the idea that the super-delegates are going to switch over?


Now, as long as she wins Pennsylvania, I still don't think it is justified for Clinton to drop out before Indiana and North Carolina. However, it is necessary to point out that there is no realistic path to the nomination for Hillary Clinton. Preventing Obama from securing 42.7% of the remaining delegates, and / or convincing Obama delegates to flip to Clinton, are both fantasies. It is about as realistic as John Boehner arguing that Republicans won't be in the minority in 2009-2010 because, even if Republicans take their expected beating at the ballot box, he is going to convince 20 or so House Democrats to become Republicans. That just is not going to happen.

Fantasies.  And it's severely hurting the Dem party for people to support these extreme long-shot fantasies any longer.


by Cycloptichorn on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:34:19 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

You are assuming Obama will win Indiana...or even North Carolina.

Alot of assumption.  Hillary is gaining momentum and Obama's facade is cracking


by stefystef on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:05:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Hillary is gaining momentum?  WHAT?  Have you been paying attention recently at all?  Since the speech Obamas poll numbers have soared.  He gained 7 points on Clinton nationally and now holds roughly a 20 point lead in NC.  This hasn't even taken into factor Clintons mess up on sniper fire.  Seriously, can people snap into reality already.  This thing is over and whats going on right now is just boosting Mr 100 years.


Vote Change in '08!
by iowa dem on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:27:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

You are talking to lunatics.


by danfromny on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:34:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Accelerating!!! 32 feet per second per second (none / 0)

Has Hillary hired freepers and paid them in crystal meth?


by bernardpliers on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 06:08:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Obama and his campaign need to remind everyone every day he will not win PA, a win by Hillary in PA does not signal a momentum swing

we are calling the win NOW a month ahead of time.

he needs to not let her and the media play the expectations games like they did in California or Ohio.

where 1 random poll comes out and boom they put everything on Obama to win a race NO one thought ever he would win.

its what the want to do with PA, but it wont happen

Hillary WILL win PA, Obama just has to keep it within 10%


Dream for tomorrow but fight for it today.
by TruthMatters on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:34:31 PM EST

Kos has that base line for Clinton at 20% (2.00 / 0)

her words, not his.


by Chimpeach on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:37:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kos has that base line for Clinton at 20% (none / 0)

Kos's predictions and analysis have always been so right on, too.


by Scotch on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:21:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kos has that base line for Clinton at 20% (2.00 / 0)

It's not a prediction.  It's where the polls had them six weeks before the primary.  Kos picked an arbitrary date, waited to see what the polls said on that date, and fixed the goalposts there.  It's a longer-term view, and a more sensible one, than the Chicken Little squawking ("He's down by six! No, now she's doubled her lead!") we all do when the day-to-day polls come out.

He was down by 20% before the serious PA campaigning began.  Measuring Obama's progress against that fixed point is a darn good way to measure relative success.


by jere7my on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:05:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kos has that base line for Clinton at 20% (none / 0)

Frankly, I think 20% was pushing it, but 16% was a solid number that we played around within the MoEs for a good two weeks after March 4.

If Clinton can't win by at least 16%, I find it hard to understand how she can make a case that she's picking up steam from somewhere.  If she wins by 20%, that gives SOME credence to that, I think, and at least is most of the way toward some semi-realistic victory scenario, as long as the delegates also split 3:2.


by Rorgg on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 11:31:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think once the Sniper-Gate polls come in (none / 0)

we'll see that she lost the Manly-Man vote in PA.

Too many vets here to pretend that you took sniper fire.

Snipers are real and not to be laughed about.


by Chimpeach on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:35:15 PM EST

Yes the Murtha crowd won't take the Tuzla (none / 0)

story lightly.  I wonder if Murtha is having second thoughts.


Listening comes first
by Moonwood on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:11:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes the Murtha crowd won't take the Tuzla (none / 0)

Yeah Murtha based his whole endorsement of her on how many times she walked accross a turmac with shots flying in the distance when she said they were closer.  If only he had known.


by Scotch on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:20:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Murtha is a hawk - a corrupt hawk (none / 0)

who has spent more in his district than any other candidate in PA.  His supporters are hawks - hawks don't take well to people making up war stories to fortify their resumes.  


Listening comes first
by Moonwood on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:55:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're nuts, what demographic is the (none / 0)

biggest embellisher of their personal exploits?   Manly-men!

Hey, I just noticed it's you chipmeach.   Don't you have a job or maybe a math test to be studying for?  

:)


Reasonable people can disagree.
by mnicholson0220 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 07:18:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I certainly hope so. (none / 0)

The more decisive Senator Obama's overall win, the less disruptive it is for Democrats.


by McNasty on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:39:16 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

The dittoheads will vote for Clinton.

She wins by 20.

Whites, Jews and now Italians:

"Obama's pastor slurs Italians in magazine:

Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., pastor emeritus of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago where Obama has been a member for two decades, slurred Italians in a piece published in the most recent issue of Trumpet Newsmagazine."

Geez.


by gotalife on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:39:25 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Jewish vote is currently split 50/50 between the two.  


by mady on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:43:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Sorry, should have posted it.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosne rBlog.jhtml?itemNo=967884&contrassID =25&subContrassID=0&sbSubContras sID=1&listSrc=Y&art=1


by mady on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:54:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

She has a slight lead in Jewish votes but not a significant one.


by mady on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Yes the millions of Pennsylvania Jews are going to make a difference.  And the Amish.


by danfromny on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:36:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Where did that come from?  PA is 2% Jewish, mostly Democratic, usually voters.  I'm a Jew supporting Obama and I don't like to hear about how the support of Jews is not going to make a difference.  In the Democratic party it does.


by mady on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:51:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

He needs to keep the loss under 10 points, win Indiana or lose under 5, then win North Carolina by 15-20. This will give Hillary a way out and she will use it.  


by rejectandenounce on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:42:08 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

I think you're right in terms of what can get Hillary to concede.

He doesn't need that to actually WIN, though.  That's a significantly lower threshhold.


by Rorgg on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 11:34:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Sorry, she isn't going anywhere. She's going to burn down the house.


by danfromny on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 09:24:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (2.00 / 0)

I think Clinton is in a bad spot in PA. Everyone expects her to win, but to make it mean anything she's got to win huge. Along as Obama merely places in PA (15 points or less IMO) the results do nothing for Clinton.


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:44:37 PM EST

And oh yeah, Zogby shows Obama (none / 0)

gaining ground, closing the gap, pulling ahead!


Reasonable people can disagree.
by mnicholson0220 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 07:17:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (2.00 / 1)

You will not play that game. Twice fooled, twice shy.
I'm a Obama supporter and I'm saying Obama will NOT win PA.
Don't send hopes up. Obama will not do it.
Victory is to come within 10% of her.

Please understand this. Stop the games.


McCain: The Past, Obama: The Future
by KathyM on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:47:04 PM EST

Saying Obama can't make up 10%. (none / 0)

....in the next three weeks is a game to lower expectations. I'll let others play it.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:31:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Agreed. Obama WILL NOT win PA. never. It's Hillary's to win +20


by poserM on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:45:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (2.00 / 0)

It's been the same pattern throughout the nomination. Clinton successfully plays the expectations game, while Obama keeps beating her where it matters: the delegates.


by dmc2 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:48:09 PM EST

Actually (none / 0)

Clinton's campaign is the one that's been doing the most registration effort (they robo-called independents, and mailed forms on Monday that said "Register Today" with pics of HRC & Rendell on them) so I don't think one can assume that most of those new registrants are going to vote for Obama.

Of course Obama will sweep Philly, and probably do very well in nearby Delaware and Montgomery counties, but I doubt if he'll do well in Chester, Bucks, or Berks counties.


I want my UHC!
by votermom on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:49:59 PM EST

Re: Actually (none / 0)

Also, the Erie and Pittsburgh areas are Clinton areas, and the state is very rural.  Rural areas have been going for Clinton in large numbers all through the season.  How a move toward Obama can be extrapolated from a higher registration numbers is a puzzle to me.  Many places like NH and Florida, a high voter turnout meant higher numbers for Clinton.  If wishes could only make things come true.


by Scotch on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:56:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Really? (none / 0)


"Rural areas have been going for Clinton in large numbers all through the seas"

Is that why she has done so well in Iowa, Kansas, and Missouri?

Hillary has done well when she pulls some kind of stunt right before voting ie: Naftagate in Ohio and the email fraud in NH.


Listening comes first
by Moonwood on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:19:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Really? (none / 0)

Look it up.  Rural areas are heavily for Clinton.


by Scotch on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:22:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Really? (2.00 / 0)

Rural areas contain fewer people than urban ones. That's why Hillary has lost the nomination.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:33:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Really? (none / 0)

Is it August already?  Time flys when.....


by Scotch on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:35:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Really? (none / 0)

The bean counters all say Hillary is toast. It's because fewer people live in the rural areas she has won than the urban areas Obama has won.

More votes = More delegates = Nomination


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 06:54:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama will do fine in Bucks County (none / 0)

Patrick Murphy is our congressman and a big Obama supporter.  Kerry beat bush here and the Democratic party is on the move.  Obama has two offices in Bucks.  


Listening comes first
by Moonwood on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:16:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Expectations dont matter at this point.

Will shattering Obama's expectations around the margins (PA is tied, Clinton wins by 5) cause a Clinton stampeded in IN and NC?  No.

Had the Wright thing broken a week before PA and Clinton had won by 25-30-- then perhaps.

And if Obama comes back with a double digit win in NC and/or IN-- any momentum is immediately ceased.

And Obama's PLEDGED delegates will control the credentials committee-- so seating FL and MI favorably for Clinton WILL NOT happen.  

Its over.


by Bob Beard on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:51:55 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Well, there are some lovely new comments out that Wright said regarding Italians, which should play really well in PA, which has a large Italian population.

Obama made a mistake when his camp responded to Hillary's answer to a Pittsburgh paper to the fact that she would have left the church if that was her pastor (I should hope so - Wright insulted her as well as her husband too!) It just kept the issue alive.  Combined with the new comments surfacing (if the MSM would actually report it), and this story is alive for at least another week or so.


by cmugirl90 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:08:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

well, I'm part italian (my mom's dad and my dad's mom were born in Italy) and I couldn't give a rat's a$$ what wright said or wrote about italians

Last time I checked, Obama was on the ballot, not wright

I think most dems are smart enough not to continue to beat up Obama over every dumb thing his pastor said


by uscpdx1 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:01:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

I'm with you on this... I'm also of mixed Italian heritage, and I think it was a dumb-ass thing for Wright to say.

So, I won't vote for Wright.  Unless Obama plans on naming him his running mate, this isn't an issue to me.


by Rorgg on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 11:37:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think most newly registered will vote Clinton (2.00 / 1)

so you may expect for large win for Hillary...
larger than polls saying.
Landslide of lies
by engels on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:52:05 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Rasmussen, let's look at their success in polling so far---

Last poll before the following elections:
Rasmussen had Obama beating Clinton in California by 1 point.

They had Clinton winning Ohio by 6.

Texas, Obama ahead by 1 point.

In Connecticut, they were dead even.  

Depending on one poll from one polling company for your political analysis in an election is just not a good idea.


by Scotch on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:52:17 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Oh and then there was New Hampshire.  Rass had O up by 7.


by Scotch on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:10:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Personally I find this talk that O has already won rather strange, if that is really so, why all the hype at all, O can just coast to victory.  If he has is already in the bag.  the problem with all this talk is that is it, just chatter.  The pundits and the blogs have spent wasted time in this useless speculation.  So I say, if O has already won, why bother with all this?  Sit back and bask in the glory of the victory, why worry?  Why get in a huff and hate festival at all, after all O has already won right?  Let it be then, Hillary can't hurt him, she hasn't got a chance, O has already bought the SDs with fat promises and the lure of power, so this is a cake walk from here on out, right?  Clinton has no chance.  this is all I hear from O supporters and the scum sucking bottom feeding dogs of the pundit low class.  The story is already old. The voting is a fore gone conclusion, but I guess we will just have to let the people vote anyway, after all it must appear that they have a say, when you already know that their votes don't even matter, sort of like Fl and Mich, those votes are discounted too, O doesn't bother with votes that are not for him, those votes just don't matter. He can just discount his way to the nomination.


democrat voter
by democrat voter on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:57:44 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Jeez, what a dense comment.

Hillary is just too far behind.  It's not that the votes don't matter; they do.  They just don't add up to enough to get her across the victory line.

You guys are getting desperate, and it's showing.


by Cycloptichorn on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:00:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

The political scientist probably said so because it's so unlikely that the person will look like a genius if it comes to pass.  


by rfahey22 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:00:07 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Exactly.

The count is of people switching parties.  Really don't know who that favors.  To turn that into an upset brewing for Obama is a huge stretch.


If yer after gettin the honey, then you don't go killing all the bees.
by Fluffy Puff Marshmallow on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:06:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Anything is possible; however, it is also important to remember that just because they are switching does not mean that they will go for Obama. If they are highly educated "elites", they are already Dems; otherwise, they might be GOPers who are listening to Rush and converting to vote for Clinton


by American1989 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:02:48 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

obama will lose PA by 10-12, win NC by 10-15 and IN will be either a small Clinton win or a rather comfortable Obama win.

I would advice Obama not to over saturate the t.v. markets in any of the remaining states. He should put his money in building up ground games that will be more beneficial during this primary and in November.

there's only so many commercials a viewer can watch before they get pissed at the messenger.

Regarding the initial thread, eh. Hillary needs to win N. Carolina and Indiana by at least 15 points each (while winning PA by 20). Anything less is a loss.


!
by alex100 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:04:04 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

There are already about 3 Obama commercials an hour on network TV in PA over the last few days.  That would be my estimate being a viewer, maybe it just seems to be that many.  It is too many though.  The same 3 commercials over and over again a full month before the election doesn't help him in my opinion.


by Scotch on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:14:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Sounds like overkill.
During the Super Bowl, there were Obama commercials at every break.  I was so sick of looking at him, I'd change the channel.

I think Obama is going to make people in PA so sick of him, they will vote against him.  Folks in PA aren't impressed easily.


by stefystef on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:20:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

I think the Obama campaign is too smart for that.
There will be new commercials strategically placed.
And there is the bus tour.
by barnowl on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:42:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

democrat voter, I don't think anyone is saying what you are saying.  Rather, the math behind a Clinton victory is very tight.  The only way for her to win it is to completely destroy Obama and his name or to get a very large number of  Superdelegates to side with her to overcome his pledged delegate lead.  Either path to victory will create much fallout.  I hope she doesn't win by either method, but she still has a small chance of winning.


by nrioq on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:04:36 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (2.00 / 1)

After the pure "math meme" fades (somewhere after a solid Clinton Pennsylvania victory), then we will see.  I remember an old professor of mine saying how the mathematical formula for a contracts case would have worked if we just had an "ir" factor (for irrationality.)  The point: It isn't all about math--just a part of it if no one has the magic majority number.  There is always fallout in a long contest (e.g., see Gallup story today.)  And, like it or not, ultimately Florida and Michigan will have to be dealt with in a way that doesn't negate/render meaningless their votes OR we risk losing two states right off the top.  Lots of factors in the dance of a real primary battle.


by christinep on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:02:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Why would it fade after a Clinton PA victory?  It just moves up a step.  It's not some ridiculous idea being floated, it's the mechanics of the nomination.

If Clinton wins PA by 25, WV and KY big, IN and PR small, and ties in OR, MT, and SD, which is what her campaign has painted as a best-case scenario, she's still got to convince about 65% of the 250 outstanding Supers to vote against the elected delegate count to give her the nomination, while Obama would only have to convince 40% of them to ratify the count.

This may be a "meme," but it's also reality.  So, she wins PA by 25... she still has to do all that other stuff before we get to, what to me seems to be the really improbable step.


by Rorgg on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 11:43:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Keep in mind that all other polls show the opposite trend.  Franklin and Marshall showed her expanding her lead from 12 to 16 points, and Quinnipiac showed her doubling her lead from 6 to 12.  Then we have PPP that has her up by 26 points, something that is hard for even me to believe.

Anything less than a 10 point victory will be bad news for her campaign, I suspect.  Look for Obama to spring an intense push immediately before and after the April 15 debate.  It generally benefits him for people to make their move on impulse.  He certainly has a good chance to do damage to Hillary's lead, as he did in TX.


by bobbank on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:05:23 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

"It generally benefits him for people to make their move on impulse."

I was under the assumption that the opposite is true.  Doesn't Hillary win the majority of people who are undecided up until actual primary?  I could be completely wrong, but I think I've seen that in a few different polls.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:32:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (2.00 / 1)

The general trend, though it's varied a bit in some contests, has been the old incumbent-challenger scenario:

People who haven't decided until the last week tend to break for the challenger, because they know the incumbent well enough that if they really wanted to vote for (in this case) her, they would have made up their mind.  They just need to convince themselves to commit the other way.

People who haven't decided until the last DAY or two will break for the incumbent, because in this case, they REALLY are undecided and will tend to go with the known quantity.


by Rorgg on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 11:46:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

One more time (none / 0)

It is the moment of truth, once again: Call it Texas II, although the expectations are different here.

If in PA Obama remains within 10% of Clinton, then it's over. A group of superdelegates will probably move against her as they intended after Texas.

But if he doesn't then the thing continues.

It's Obama's Job to win, not Hillary's duty to lose.


by TaiChiMaster on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:06:47 PM EST

hard to see how obama wins pennsylvania... (none / 0)

she's got some formidible pennsylvania machines supporting her.  look what that did for her in ohio.  a higher turnout will help barack, and he's beaten the machine before (eg, march 2004) but everyone knows if hillary loses pennsylvania, she's out.  do or die for her.  i can't imagine that won't turn out her voters...


"We did not come to fear the future. We came here to shape it." - President Obama, Sept 9, 2009
by bored now on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:08:57 PM EST

Interview Was "Britney Spears" Moment (none / 0)

That interview with Scaife was the part where it transitioned from comedy to tragedy.

She was preening for the guy that funded Santorum's GOP campaign. He got crushed. Hillary is there sucking up to the wingnut GOP press when the GOP is on the skids in that area?

Wow, maybe that would work in the general election, but for a closed primary? It just highlights her ties to the GOP


by bernardpliers on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:10:52 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

I wonder if there is a growing number of Democratic voters out there that just want this thing to be over. They support Clinton but like Obama, and therefore will cast a vote for him since a vote for her would only mean this thing goes on longer and gets nastier.

NOTE: This is only a thought. I have no evidence to state this may or may not be happening.


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:15:36 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

It's an interesting question.  I often wonder if the divide between HRC and BO supporters is as wide with "regular joe" voters as it is in the blogosphere.

Seems some people somewhere still see the two of them coming together on that fabled "dream ticket".  CAlling for that here or over at DKos and you're begging to be tarred and feathered.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:40:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

This is nonsense, and probably coming from the Clinton camp to mimimize expectations for their candidate. Facts are facts. Clinton needs to win PA 65-35 to garner at least 50 more delegates than
Obama. Anything else is a de facto defeat fpor her. Let' s remember, we live in Realityland -- nort Hillaryland.  If OBama came within 15 that would be cause for rejoicing for this Obamaite.
Remember 1968 -- PA was Wallace country.
by NYWoman on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:21:18 PM EST

Huh? (none / 0)

I understand the need to suggest that any state not supportive of Obama is racist, but PA was not "Wallace country" in '68. He got about 8% of the vote there - several points lower than his national total and less than he got in most of the major states (including Illinois!). If you meant the '68 Pennsylvania primary, well, that was won by Gene McCarthy.


by Shawn on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:50:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

PA 1968 Won by Humphrey (none / 0)

In 1968 Humphrey won PA 84 to Nixon's 44 and Wallace won just shy of 8% of the vote.

http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state .php?year=1968&fips=42&f=0


by chatters71 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:46:25 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Money matters...
Obama has much more of his Primary $$$ left than Clinton.
This means more staff and more ads in PA..NC IN..OR
We will see how much when the March numbers come in..
The trend is graphically here.
http://www.pollster.com/08-PA-Dem-Pres-P rimary.php
http://www.pollster.com/08-NC-Dem-Pres-P rimary.php
IN and OR don't have enough polls yet..

"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:54:39 PM EST

Clinton, the superdelegates, and the contributors (none / 0)

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail /2008/03/26/clinton_donors_warn_pelosi_o n.html

Clinton's supporters, DNCC support, and Nancy Pelosi.


by mady on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:00:45 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

I use to be for Obama, but not now. He appears to be 'star struck' and will say anything, mostly damaging to Clinton, to be in the news. He does not stick to politics. He implies 'who is hurting my campaign now'. Get over it Obama and stick to real politics, please. This is getting old.


by Susan B on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:12:58 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

".....He appears to be 'star struck' and will say anything, mostly damaging to Clinton, to be in the news...."

That's why he spent 4 days hogging the spotlight (???) in St. Thomas.

Obama's been resting, Hillary has been humiliating herself.


by bernardpliers on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:20:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're kidding. Did you see that video (none / 0)

of him in St. Thomas today, where he said "I just want to be left alone"?  He looked like a broken man.  Not making eye contact, saying little walking with shoulders down.   If his vacation was supposed to be a recharge, it looks to me like the plug was pulled.


Reasonable people can disagree.
by mnicholson0220 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 07:13:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Actually, with all he's been through over the past month coming from Clinton's slime machine and elsewhere, I see him as maintaining a high road.  He praises her often in his statements and interviews.  She's said nothing positive about him since the last debate with the dubious exception of how "important" his post-Wright speech was.

She's desperate.  And she's going to bring down the party, and ultimately the country, with her if she's given the chance.

It's time for the uncommitted superdelegates to put an end to this.


by Drummond on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 06:22:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

I agree.  Obama is SURGING in Pennsylvania.  Anything less than a 15 point win there by Obama will be shocking.


by markjay on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 06:30:53 PM EST

Lol (none / 0)

I commend you for the spin.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq for a century.
by jkfp2004 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 07:31:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Alas: PA looking glum for Obama ... (none / 0)

At least, if you can believe dailykos, the capital of pro-Obama fantasy.  

Suddenly, just doing small meetings, looks like he can't pull in the crowds.   And canceling the event in Pittsburgh hurt, too.
---------------------------------------- ---
So far, the Obama effort in PA has been pretty pathetic. I count two appearances in the last two weeks. It's not just about fighting for delegates in April. If he continues to downplay the state (much as Clinton has downplayed states where she does poorly), then he greatly increases the risk that McCain will win PA in November.
---------------------------------------- ---
The enthusiasm for Obama has literally DIED in the last few days. I haven't seen anything like it, since Gary Hart.
---------------------------------------- ---
Losing PA means losing North Carolina and Indiana.  If he blows a 200 delegate lead and ends up with a 40-50 delegate lead, sorry, he doesn't deserve the nomination. He's basically Carter 1980
---------------------------------------- ---
One Word-PURDUE Purdue has pretty much been Obama Central up here, but the Wright issue isn't playing very well, on a campus, and in a town that pretty much is diversity itself...
I've been here 30 years, and it's almost like you can feel the change...Scary...
---------------------------------------- ---


Reasonable people can disagree.
by mnicholson0220 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 07:10:12 PM EST

as has been said (none / 0)

by his campaign, he will be going on a bus tour of Indiana.

"If he blows a 200 delegate lead and ends up with a 40-50 delegate lead, sorry, he doesn't deserve the nomination."

YEAH!!! In that case the candidate with even less delegates deserves the nomination!!!


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 08:15:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! PA IS HILLARY'S. (none / 0)

This time, there really is the "vast right-wing conspiracy:" the PA Republican party (including my own cousin) switched their political affiliation to "Democrat" just to help Hillary win the PA primary.  

Hillary is going to win PA by a HUGE landslide on April 22, but she (still) is not going to get 64% of the inflated PA "Democratic" vote she needs to completely knock out Obama. (Rush Limbaugh and Richard Mellon Scaife are not the all-powerful political manipulators they think they are.  But does that matter?  Hillary is benefiting from every PA Republican vote for her.)  

She needs to poach lots of Obama's delegates - and fast.

If the DNC does not do something to force an end to her campaign, and even though the numbers (still) will not favor her by even May 7, Hillary is staying in this race to the absolute death - if only to ensure that McCain wins the general election. That way, Hillary runs for president again in 2012.

So, DON'T WORRY; BE HAPPY!  

Hillary For President 2008 - or 2012!


by zelduh on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 08:04:00 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An (none / 0)

We've heard it all before....upsets by Obama in MA, CA, OH, etc.

I think that the longer the campaign goes, the less likely a voter is to change their mind on a candidate.


by mjc888 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 08:42:36 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

Obama upset in PA? Keep dreaming, baby.
by aroundtheblock on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 10:58:18 PM EST

Re: Talk Of An Obama Upset In Pennsylvania Begins (none / 0)

My current guess is that Clinton wins PA by, say, 15%.

Then in the following week any delegate gains that Hillary made in PA will be erased.

And the slog will go on, all the way to June, with each side picking up approximately half of the available delegates.


by clawed on Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 12:30:05 AM EST


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