Fact-Checking the Fact Checker

The WaPo's "Fact Checker," Michael Dobbs, knows that Hillary Clinton was safe as a bug in a rug when she went to Bosnia in 1996.  He knows, you see, because he was in Bosnia in 1996 himself, and he was never in any danger!

Missing in Dobbs' account, in the infamous CBS footage, in all the gotcha hooey after this crap--and even from the sometimes-sloppy Clinton Press Office--is any explanation at all of why Clinton's account couldn't be explained, not by her landing at the main U.S. HQ in Tuzla, but by her side-trip to two other more forward bases in Bosnia.  Because the First Lady did, in fact, visit two other bases where the CBS newscameras were not rolling.

And I don't think Sinbad was there, either.

Associated Press, March 25, 1996:

MARKOVICI, Bosnia-Herzegovina - Protected by sharpshooters, Hillary Rodham Clinton swooped into a military zone by Black Hawk helicopter Monday to deliver a personal "thank you, thank you, thank you" to U.S. troops.

"They're making a difference," the first lady said of the 18,500 Americans working as peacekeepers in Bosnia.

Mrs. Clinton became the first presidential spouse since Eleanor Roosevelt to make such an extensive trip into what can be considered a hostile area, though others have visited hot spots. . . .

But the highlight of her trip were visits to two fortified posts outside the U.S. base in Tuzla. Even President Clinton, restricted to the base by bad weather in January, did not see as much of this war-wracked region as Mrs. Clinton did Monday.

The troops seemed to appreciate it: cameras chirped like a thousand crickets as she chatted with mine-disposal experts, examined huge tanks and met a hero or two. Chelsea, 16, kept her usual low profile but remained constantly at her mother's side, posing for soldiers or talking softly with them.

Watching the first lady troop around in muted trench coat and pants, Sgt. Michael Tucker of Miami said, "She's a very important person. For her to take time to come and see us means a lot."

Another contemporaneous account:

At a second outpost, Camp Bedrock, Mrs. Clinton visited a M.A.S.H. unit, the only full-service U.S. Army hospital in Bosnia. The three-hour tour of the frontlines of the international peacekeeping mission were filled with the gritty reality of a military operation, a far cry from traditional first lady photo opportunities, and Mrs. Clinton seemed more than comfortable with that. CNN, 3/25/96

Let me make another important point.  Being in an airlpane under sniper fire, or under the threat of sniper fire, is not the same as standing on the ground being shot at.  If snipers did fire at a plane, nobody would know unless they were hit.

In a combat zone, especially in modern combat, being "under sniper fire" is more a condition than an event.  Snipers, for example in the hills surrounding a U.S. base, will take 2-3 quick potshots, then scurry for cover before the choppers arrive and fire rockets at them.  However, until officers on the scene can become confident that the threat has been eliminated or has dissipated, the area that was taken under fire will be considered to be under the threat of sniper fire pretty much on a continuing basis.  Shorthand for that is just to say that the area is "under sniper fire."  It's a very common condition in combat zones.  It's not Condition Red Alert DANGER DANGER, but it's a condition for caution: people travelling on foot will avoid open areas and hurry through them when they can't be avoided, airplanes landing will use steep or stealthy approaches, etc., and most assuredly arriving dignitaries will take precautions.

Clinton never said she had bullets whizzing past her ears, she said they were under sniper fire while landing, which is perfectly consistent with her having been informed on the plane that the plane was "under sniper fire," which could simply mean that the plane was landing in an area that had not been called clear since the last time snipers fired on it.  Especially with a dignitary travelling like that, the rule would be to assume danger and take precautions first unless there is absolute assurance of safety.

As a civilian, I imagine her heart was racing a bit over the fairly normal precautions.  Based on what I know and describe below about human memory, her memory of the excitement over 10 years later is more likely to be inaccurate and exaggerated than to be accurate.

On Michael Dobbs

By the way, here are some blast from the past horseshit "fact checks from conservative "Fact Checker" Michael Dobbs:

For the Massachusetts senator's critics, who include three of the five Swift boat skippers who were present that day, the incident demonstrates why Kerry does not deserve to be commander in chief. They accuse him of cowardice, hogging the limelight and lying. Far from displaying coolness under fire, they say, Kerry was never fired upon and fled the scene at the moment of maximum danger.

Establishing the facts is complicated not merely by fading memories and sometimes ambiguous archival evidence, but also by the bitterly partisan nature of the presidential campaign.

An investigation by The Washington Post into what happened that day suggests that both sides have withheld information from the public record and provided an incomplete, and sometimes inaccurate, picture of what took place. But although Kerry's accusers have succeeded in raising doubts about his war record, they have failed to come up with sufficient evidence to prove him a liar.

Anybody who knows anything about the real story behind the Swift Boat Liars and Kerry's medals knows how very very very very very very far this version comes from capturing the truth of what happened.  What Dobbs conveniently leaves out is that each of Kerry's principal accusers was proven to be a liar, and that the entire enterprise was initiated by a decades-old enemy of Kerry's who had actually been ordered by Nixon to take Kerry down.

Or how about this award-winner?

The former vice-president has won plaudits around the world for his work on global warming, publicized in a best-selling book, an Oscar-winning movie, Power Point lectures, and now the Nobel Peace Prize. The Nobel prize announcement coincided with the conclusion of a months-long court case in Britain examining whether An Inconvenient Truth can be shown to British school children. The judge ruled this week that the movie can be shown in classrooms, but only if accompanied by teacher guidance notes balancing Gore's "one-sided views."

After listening to government witnesses, environmental campaigners, and skeptics on global warming argue their case, the judge described Gore's film as "broadly accurate" in its presentation of climate change. At the same time he also listed nine significant errors in the movie which, he said, reflected a general context of "alarmism and exaggeration" surrounding climate change.

Obviously, it is impossible to adjudicate this argument with a quick post. But it is worth while at least taking a look at the judge's nine objections to the Gore movie, which are as follows:

1. Burton found that Gore's assertion of a rapid rise in sea-levels caused by the melting of icecaps in Antarctica was overly "alarmist."

  1. Gore claimed that the disappearance of year-round snow from the summit of Mount Kilimanjaro in Africa was expressly attributable to global warming. The court was not convinced. According to Burton, the scientific "consensus" is that the reasons for the snow recession on Kilimanjaro cannot be established.
  2. Gore cited a scientific study showing that polar bears had drowned by "swimming long distances--up to 60 miles--to find the ice." Evidence backing up this claim was not produced to the British court. The judge wrote that the only scientific study shown to him indicated "that four polar bears have recently been found drowned because of a storm." See early news story on bear drownings here.
  3. Gore attributed the Hurricane Katrina devastation to global warming. The judge found that there was "insufficient evidence to show that."
  4. The Gore movie depicted the drying up of Lake Chad as a prime example of the effects of global warming. Expert testimony in front of the British court suggested that "far more likely causes" were "population increase, over-grazing, and regional climate variability."
  5. Gore suggested an "exact fit" between the rise in carbon dioxide levels and the rise in temperatures over a period of 650,000 years. According to the judge, scientists generally agree that there is "a connection," between the two phenomena, but claims of an "exact fit" cannot be established.
  6. An "Inconvenient Truth" claimed that citizens of some low-lying inhabited Pacific atolls "have all had to evacuate to New Zealand" because of the inundation of their islands caused by global warming. The judge said that he found no evidence of "any such evacuation having yet happened."
  7. The movie suggested that global warming could shut down "the Ocean Conveyer," a process by which the Gulf Stream is carried over the North Atlantic to Western Europe. The judge cited a study by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the co-winner of the Nobel Peace prize, which concluded that it was "very unlikely" that the Ocean Conveyer would be shut down completely, although it might slow down.
  8. Gore argued that coral reefs all over the world were bleaching because of global warming and other factors. The judge cited the IPCC view that it was difficult to separate the impact of stresses on coral reefs caused by climate change "from other stresses such as over-fishing and pollution."

Both sides claimed a victory of sorts after the verdict was delivered. The man who brought the case, Stewart Dimmock, said he was "elated" with the result, but disappointed that the film could still be shown in schools. He said that the judge's order for balancing material to be included with the movie would keep British school children from being "indoctrinated with this political spin."

A Gore spokeswoman said that the former vice-president was "gratified" that the court had agreed with "the central thesis of the film--that global warming is real and caused by human activities." She noted that the judge had only disagreed with a handful of the "thousands" of facts in the movie.

The Pinocchio Test
It is way too early for a Pinocchio ruling on this one.

Take a look at those nine "facts." They didn't need debunking. They fall on their own--unless it's Michael Dobbs doing the "fact checking."

And another:

The data provided by Gen. Petraeus on sharply declining Iraqi casualty rates is certainly open to analysis, debate, and challenge. We plan to take a closer look at them in a future post. However, MoveOn.org does not provide adequate factual support for its larger assertion that Petraeus is "constantly at war with the facts" and is "cooking the books" for the White House. In the absence of fresh evidence, we award MoveOn.org three Pinocchios.

Our hero.

What's It All About?  Alfie?

Coincidentally enough, I once handled a number of matters for the Dalkon Shield Claimants Trust.  In each case, an issue was whether a Dalkon Shield user's recollection of events that occurred 10-25 years ago was accurate.  In connection with the litigation, I worked with memory experts and did some fairly extensive research on long-term memory in humans.

Here's the word: your memory of long-term events would have to improve dramatically to reach the threshold of "pitiful."  Most of it we forget and the part we remember is extremely unreliable.  Our memories of past events become mixed-up with things that have occurred since, especially things that become associated with those memories.  Example: you're thinking about some long-ago event with the TV on, and then a commercial for some brand of coffee comes on.  Two years from now, when you think about that event again, you think you were drinking that brand of coffee when the event happened.  A similar (fictional) example:

Hillary (at a party a couple of years after the event): When we landed at Bosnia we were told that the area was under sniper fire, and they made us sit on our bullet-proof vests while the plane came in for a steep landing.

Unknown Reveller: Wow, I'll bet the Secret Service hated that.  I can just picture them making you sprint to your limo after you landed.

Hillary, ten years later, giving her best recollection: We landed under sniper fire and the Secret Service made us run to our cars.

That's the way human memory works.

Now, I can hear you out there: hey, you're being inconsistent.  Are you claiming that it really happened the way she said it happened--or are you claiming that it was an ordinary lapse in human memory?

I'm claiming both--and neither.  Because what I'm really claiming, and folks it's not just a claim, it's a statement of fact, is that we don't know.  Take it from an experienced litigator who has learned not to trust one-sided accounts, here is far too little information available to conclude that what she said happened didn't happen--but even if it didn't, it's just ignorance of the nature of memory that would lead to the conclusion that she is intentionally lying.  Really, there's no reason to conclude that at all: unless you're one of those folks that starts with the assumption that whatever she says is a lie, in which case i've got nothin' for ya.

The real moral of this story is not that Hillary Clinton is a Monster Who Will Say Anything To Win--it's that Obama has so little positive to say that his campaign is reduced to nit-picking his opponent's statements, even hiring a top-notched litigator, Greg Craig, who is basically conducting the public relations portion of this campaign as a litigator.  There's a lot to be said for litigation in a pinch, but one of these things is most assuredly not that it's the best way to determine truth.



Display:


Re: Fact-Checking the Fact Checker (2.00 / 2)

Excellent Diary! Definitely recommended. Obama's campaign has clearly lost taste  for a 'new kind of politics' and is reduced to repeating these petty attacks on Hillary. Unfortunately, the MSM eats all of this garbage up and spews it in all of our faces. But, God forbid that Hillary attack Obama on his misstatements and be perceived as going negative.


by corunner26 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:52:16 AM EST

Re: Fact-Checking the Fact Checker (none / 0)

Why are you faulting the Obama campaign for Clinton's own self-imposed troubles? This is a media led story. I fault Obama for this about as much as I fault Clinton for the Wright flap, which is to say not at all.


by tessellated on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:29:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

They pushed the story (2.00 / 1)

In this odiferous memo Greg Craig and the Obama camp excreted on Friday.


by Trickster on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:42:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They pushed the story (none / 0)

That's it? A memo?

Ok. I guess. That's hardly a damning criticism, especially when what the memo says (at least on this particular) is true. I've not seen Obama surrogates trumpeting this on the networks. Prior to this week the only dissension I was aware of came from Sinbad.


by tessellated on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:51:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fact-Checking the Fact Checker (2.00 / 1)

So, she was in a moment of mortal danger and being shot at.  Gosh, that's something that would probably stick in your memory...but she can't remember if it was in a plane or a chopper?

K.

Anyway, what are the stats on sniper related deaths in Bosnia among US troops. I've never heard much about that until this story broke, sounds pretty damn scary.


by furiousxgeorge on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:55:40 AM EST

Re: Fact-Checking the Fact Checker (2.00 / 1)

You know, I'm just Some Guy On The Internet You Don't Know, And Anonymous To Boot, and here I am asserting this stuff about human memory as if it were fact.  I would strongly recommend that you regard those assertions skeptically and look it up yourself.

Nevertheless, I did do the research, and one of the conclusions was that dramatic events are just as prone to being remembered erroneously as ordinary events.  They're probably more likely to be remembered, but the memory is going to be just as shot full of holes as any other memory.


by Trickster on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:16:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Everybody gets things wrong (2.00 / 1)

but helicopter vs. plane?  I don't think so.


by furiousxgeorge on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:23:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Everybody gets things wrong (none / 0)

For those of us who fly both, it is not difficult to forget which vehicle we were in on a particular trip.  


by macmcd on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:11:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fact-Checking the Fact Checker (none / 0)

She's already admitted she misspoke. Coming up with creative explanations for how she didn't exaggerate is moot at this point.


by tessellated on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:32:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But the media won't stop do thay? (none / 0)

They keep running the story of Hillary innocently misremembers a few details from an event 12 years ago

And they conveniently dismiss  Obama consciously lies repeatedly about the current issue of how much Rezko raised money for him.

I want to know how much and where Obama donate the money he received from Rezko.  Maybe it went straight to TUCC fund.  Who knows!?


by JoeySky18 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:37:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But the media won't stop do thay? (none / 0)

Welcome to the media whining club, I guess? Everyone thinks their candidate is getting a raw deal from the media. The truth is somewhere in the middle I suspect.


by tessellated on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 03:51:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"All in a day's work" for Hillary. Plus (2.00 / 1)

she probably left Chelsea behind with that genius Sinbad who started this trouble in the first place by being such an incredible expert on everything Hillary does.  What a loser.


Reasonable people can disagree.
by mnicholson0220 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:06:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

OMG Sinbad has more experience than Obama (none / 0)

A loser is a relative term.

Sinbad had more foreign/commander-in-chief than Obama.  At least he went to the war zone in Bosnia.   Obama never went anywhere to visit the troop in the war zone.  


by JoeySky18 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:46:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Mwuhahahaha ... good one! :) (none / 0)


Reasonable people can disagree.
by mnicholson0220 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:20:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's actually well known that people (2.00 / 1)

do not recall details correctly.  The famous "eye witness" phenomenon is that people can witness the same crime or big event and come away with very different memories of the details.  Not the main event, but the details.  

Given that she took 2-3 flights in a single day, there's plenty of reason to have them mixed up.  You know, counter to what you and other Clinton haters may believe, she was NOT running for President on that day and so, you know, probably didn't think to put it into her "First Lady" schedule so a bunch of losers with no ideas or accomplishments of their own could go through it with a fine-toothed comb 12 years later.  

Sheesh, you people.  Get lives.


Reasonable people can disagree.
by mnicholson0220 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:12:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fact-Checking the Fact Checker (none / 0)

I think that if you were to interview Veterans of situations in which their lives were in danger, you would find that what the diariest writes is absolutely true.  Particularly, if the person is in danger on more than one occasion, then the events can become conflated to a greater or lessor degree.  Over time, memory is less reliable and contemoraneous accounts are the most reliable.  Generally, diaries and journals are the best accounts.  OTOH, you are just blowing smoke if you believe that Hillary went into those areas for which there are news accounts and was in no danger.  

OTOH, with Obama floundering, I can understand the need to continue to stoop to negativity.  It is a sad but human trait.


by macmcd on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:09:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She took her daughter (1.66 / 3)

either she was lying or she is a terrible parent


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:58:27 AM EST

Re: She took her daughter (none / 0)

Because those are the only two possible options.

[eyes roll]

***A


by adrienne4dean on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 03:37:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fact-Checking the Fact Checker (2.00 / 2)

Right, and Obama's campaign HOPES that by continuing to belittle Hillary's obvious domestic and foreign policy experience that somehow the public will forget that he has almost none of his own.


by corunner26 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:58:30 AM EST

Re: Fact-Checking the Fact Checker (none / 0)

I think he has even less than "almost none."  I believe it is more like zero.


by macmcd on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:13:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fact-Checking the Fact Checker (2.00 / 4)

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

But the highlight of her trip were visits to two fortified posts outside the U.S. base in Tuzla. Even President Clinton, restricted to the base by bad weather in January, did not see as much of this war-wracked region as Mrs. Clinton did Monday.
...
Riflemen rushed to the brush line as the helicopter landed and surrounded her as she walked into the post. Located in a "separation zone," the U.S. outpost nestles between two tree lines. Just months ago, one was Serbian territory, the other Bosnian.

Security was tight - fighter jets accompanied her C-17 cargo plane to Tuzla - but officials said the first lady took no extraordinary risks on the trip.
Lexis - By RON FOURNIER, Associated Press, March 25, 1996

=
First Lady of the United States, Hillary Clinton, visited her country's troops at their fortified outposts in north-eastern Bosnia today and said their peacekeeping work was "extraordinary to behold".
Mrs Clinton's helicopter flight to Camp Alicia, home of a mechanised infantry outfit and a combat engineer batallion 15 miles east of Tuzla, took her over burned out villages and farm houses whose roofs had been blown off in the fierce fighting before last December's Paris peace agreement ended the 43 -month-old war in Bosnia.

A machine gun emplacement guarded the entrance of the outposts and marked Bosnian minefields were visible outside its perimeter.
...
 After lunch with the troops in a makeshift dining hall surrounded by sandbags, she flew on to Camp Bedrock south of Tuzla to visit an army field hospital.

Mrs Clinton, who later returned to Tuzla for a show starring singer Sheryl Crow and comedian Sinbad, said she was "amazed at how much has been accomplished in such a short period of time" by US troops in Bosnia.
Source - Lexis - The Herald (Glasgow), March 26, 1996

Talkleft: I did some research on Lexis Nexis last night

I'm amazed that she took a chopper to a forward MASH unit. Can you believe that? The First Lady of the United States. Can you imagine Laura Bush putting on a flak jacked and heading out to a forward MASH unit. What a brave and wonderful woman.

I hope the Obama folks do keep flailing at this issue. It just spotlights their lack of character and the type of leader Hillary Clinton is.

The US had made a huge commitment to bringing peace, and they decided to send Hillary and Chelsea as a symbol of our committment to peace. That's leadership. That's powerful world class leadership. I find all the nasty innuendo sad and desperate. She put herself in harms way for the cause of peace. Would any of us do the same? I doubt it, but then we are not fit to be a leaders of the free world, are we?


by MediaFreeze on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:09:49 AM EST

Whoa! Maybe you should send this (2.00 / 1)

to the Clinton campaign pronto?  And CNN, CBS (who supposedly broke the story), ABC, MSNBC, HuffPo, dkos, and all the rest of the usual suspects.  I went looking for this but didn't find it.

Props x 10 to you!


Reasonable people can disagree.
by mnicholson0220 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:26:57 AM EST

Re: Fact-Checking the Fact Checker (none / 0)

Maybe tomorrow she'll say she misspoke when she said she misspoke.  


by Piuma on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:46:56 AM EST

Excellent diary! (2.00 / 0)

Highly rec'd!
Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:19:15 AM EST

Re: Fact-Checking the Fact Checker (none / 0)

This is all a silly distraction, but if you MUST bring it up again, I'd say this:

This isn't a question of a sniper shooting at them while on a plane.  You don't "run for cover," as she claimed, when you're on a plane.  So, therefore, she clearly wasn't talking about something that happened...say it with me people...ON A PLANE.

But it's not that important.  Clinton exaggerates a bit.  That's what you do in campaigns.  You highlight and exaggerate your strong points, minimize the bad.  No biggie.

But why continue to fight this fight?  


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:28:27 AM EST

Why fight this fight? (2.00 / 0)

Because I saw what happened to Gore when he was swarmed with BS nit-picking after the first Bush debate.  He lost 10 poll points in one week, and that was the only dramatic poll movement for either side--other than during each candidate's respective Convention week--during the 9 or so months between when the two candidates each wrapped their nominations early and the election.

In other words, this is what cost Gore the Presidency in '00.  The exact same nit-picky gotcha "fact" check crap.  And it was just as putrid then as it is now.

I noticed it in '00.  This time I'm saying something about it.


by Trickster on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:40:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why fight this fight? (none / 0)

Again, I agree that this is a silly distraction.  

I think Hillary would have been well served by simply saying she misremembered or had confused the details of two separate events (as your diary discusses).  I'd have had no problem with that, whatsoever.  

But, instead, they claim she "misspoke" which seems like a political way of admitting a lie.  And the problem is that the sniper fire isn't even the issue.  Her trip is the issue, and should be if every sniper in the country was down with the stomach flu.  But she threw out this sniper business  and now she's been caught either in a lie or simply in misremembering.  I can live with the fact that the threat of sniper fire might be misremembered as "coming in under sniper fire."  It's tough for me to think one could create a false memory of running across the tarmac for cover.

But, either way, silly distraction.  These days, you can't afford mistakes like this.  EVERYTHING can be fact checked.  If you get something wrong, you need to quickly correct it, or you'll be labeled a liar.


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:47:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why fight this fight? (none / 0)

Unless you are Obama and are able to saying that it was simply coincidence that Ms. Rezko bought the adjoining yard to your house on the same day that you got a discount.  Or that you were able to listen to the tapes of Rev. Wright and attend church for twenty years and never hear racist hatred preached.  Or you can say that Rezko et al contributed no more than $60 thousand, or %150, or 250 thousand and nobody even questions it.  

But, OTOH, Hillary needs to fact check every single word that comes out of her mouth because a Clinton cannot a misspoken word because that would PROVE that she is not fit to be President.  

Thank god we do have Hillary and thank god for her very high standards of integrity.  


by macmcd on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:19:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fact-Checking the Fact Checker (none / 0)

This needs to be sent to Lou Dobbs, Dan Abrems and Fox


by IndyRobin on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:32:09 PM EST

I won't stand down for the media spin (none / 0)

Although she probably didn't run & dodged the bullet, there was security concern: she was asked to put on bullet proof jacket,
she was moved to sit in the cockpit with the pilots, the ceremony was cancelled, she probably was escorted in a tight knit of security from the helicopter to the car.

Lissa Muscatine, who served as Hilary Clinton's chief speechwriter in 1996 and accompanied her on the Bosnia trip, gave her account of the story below ( and I quoted):

"I was on the plane with then First Lady Hillary Clinton for the trip from Germany into Bosnia in 1996. We were put on a C17- a plane capable of steep ascents and descents -- precisely because we were flying into what was considered a combat zone. We were issued flak jackets for the final leg because of possible sniper fire near Tuzla. As an additional precaution, the First Lady was moved to the armored cockpit for the descent into Tuzla. We were told that a welcoming ceremony on the tarmac might be canceled because of sniper fire in the hills surrounding the air strip. From Tuzla, Hillary flew to two outposts in Bosnia with gunships escorting her helicopter.:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-...t ures_par.html


by JoeySky18 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:33:26 PM EST

problem is that what she actually said was... (none / 0)

..."We landed under sniper fire."

she didn't say "there was security concern" or even "there was a constant and serious threat of snipers."

we said, "We landed under sniper fire."

to any english speaking human this implies that there was actual live fire at the airport, even if just a few minimally threatening pot shots at the airplane.

but there wasn't any at all. NONE.

thus the clinton campaign's walkback (though her supporters on this thread appear to have not gotten the memo on that).


by jethropalerobber on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 12:47:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

sorry, but in normal english... (none / 0)

..."under sniper fire" is NOT the same thing as "under the threat of sniper fire." (and if it were, why would HRC now be saying that she "misspoke"?)

in contrast, there's no difference at all in normal english between a "law professor" and a "senior lecturer at a law school" (just to pick an example out of the blue). unless maybe if you ask a law professor :)

HRC's repeated claim about "landing under sniper fire" was a carefully crafted exaggeration to burnish one of the central arguments for her nomination.

in contrast, the clinton campaign's catalog of alledged obama exaggerations is full of stuff that's totally irrelevent to the campaign (like what exactly inspired his parents to get married).

maybe not the biggest deal in the world, but i hardly think HRC is being graded unfairly on this.


by jethropalerobber on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 12:40:54 AM EST

Central argument for her nomination (none / 0)

"I got shot at once" is a "central argument for her nomination."

Really.  Do you guys ever listen to yourselves?  That's beyond absurd.

By the way, been to law school much?  There is a massive gulf between being a law school lecturer and a professor.  Professors don't even drink with lecturers unless they're hot.

I could get a job as a lecturer, probably even at my alma mater, which is a top 10 school.  Whereas, although I have really good connections at an average law school, Alabama, when I used my inside connections to inquire about the possibility of my top 10-educated self getting an assistant professorship at Bama--not even a professorship--I got laughed off the telephone.

Listen, Obama had a really good law school track record with honors from Harvard.  If he had applied himself in the right way he would've had a much better chance of getting on as a professor somewhere than I had.  But he didn't, flat stop, and it's a big over-claim to say that he did, and obviously an intentional one.

I'll put it this way: if he put that on his resume, got hired somewhere, and they found out about it, he had damn well better have already proven his worth several times over or he would be out the door in a hot heartbeat.


by Trickster on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:45:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i have to credit you this... (none / 0)

IF clinton's statement "we landed under sniper fire" had been given under oath in a deposition for a civil case in which very narrow and precise legal definitions of phrases such as "under sniper fire" had been agreed to by all sides, THEN you might have a point.

;.)


by jethropalerobber on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 12:50:37 AM EST

Re: Fact-Checking the Fact Checker (none / 0)

Memories are malleable.  Dr. Elizabeth Loftus has done some excellent work demonstrating this.  Just an aside, though.  This is a great post!


by TinaH1963 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:55:29 PM EST

Re: Fact-Checking the Fact Checker (none / 0)

Memories are malleable.  Dr. Elizabeth Loftus has done some excellent work demonstrating this.  Just an aside, though.  This is a great post!


by TinaH1963 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:55:29 PM EST


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