How we know this is over....

Guys it is over, the only reason its not like Politico reported is because the media loves a close race, but anyone who ACTUALLY talks about how Hillary wins the nomination has to admit two things

1) without a FL/MI redo Hillary has almost no chance now to get a pledged delegate or Popular vote lead.
2) without at LEAST a popular vote lead, Hillary is not going to be the nominee.

the fact of the matter is I see NONE of Hillary's supporters actually admitting the math, oh they talk about how its possible but never would one post that she needs 60% of the vote in ALL states and she has only done thins once and its not likely to happen again with out a scandal even bigger then Wright.

now what are the chances of a scandal bigger then wright happening? I honestly think that if Hillary truly believes a scandal can happen, then suspend your campaign keep your delegates and lets wait and see.

but you should not be tearing down Obama building up Mccain, when you aren't even sure that the scandal will happen.

but I will make a challenge if Hillary Supporters have an honest and upfront discussion of her chances to win by popular vote and thus win the nomination I will donate $100 to her campaign, and I challenge other Obama supporters to join me.

how so? well Blog on Pro-Hillary blogs (like TaylorMarsh.com) and get an actual post on the chances of a win WITH numbers, I saw TMs last one, but what she leaves out are numbers, she says she was to win big but doesnt say how big because obviously then its a bit more telling that this thing is done.

I don't care if Hillary stays in as long as there is more to her plan then "He will implode, he just has to"

so Hillary supporters your candidate has a viable path to the nomination? take my $100 challenge and show us.



Display:


Unity (none / 0)

Understandably, there's a lot of anger and frayed nerves in the party after this primary. Two excellent but highly iconic politicians have given so much energy to the Democratic Party as a whole. But now we've reached the point where remaining primaries are little more than censuses. As Jerome's "Ed-Neck" map shows, there is no way Obama wins PA. There is also probably no way Hillary wins NC, OR, SD or MT. And there is no way Obama wins KY or WV. Indiana is the only swing state left. And who knows about PR. The real drama is margin of victory in the various states. But since Clinton needs to average about 64% in ALL of the remaining states, she has no real chance to either take the pledged delegate lead or the popular vote lead.

The longer this goes on, the angrier the various factions of the party will be with one another. Obama cannot win without Hillary's core voters - older white female Democrats. And Hillary would not be able to win without Obama's core constituency - African Americans. They are the base of this party and we need BOTH in November. There will be some time for the anger to play out but it's important we begin the process of focusing on McCain.  He is the real enemy as he represents Bush's third term.

Hillary Clinton can do as she wishes. She has every right to fight to the convention. And I expect her hardest core of supporters to do so too. But if the superdelegates follow Richardson and call for this to end, hopefully the great middle of the Democratic party will put aside any lingering doubts about Obama and rally around him for the general election; the same would be true if Hillary were he nominee. But the time for which the primary season honestly helps the party seems to have passed.


by elrod on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 08:13:07 AM EST

Re: Unity (none / 0)

If the superdelegates end this thing today, as you want them to, thne a good chunk of HRC's  support will flock over to McCain

Be careful what you wish for!

And, oh...HRC CAN win NC, OR...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 09:09:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reality Check (none / 0)

No way Clinton wins Oregon - we love Obama out here and we're looking for an opportunity to make a statement about who we strongly favor as the democratic nominee - finally we get a say, and its going to be Obama loud and clear!


by ruskin on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 10:40:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How we know this is over.... (none / 0)

She can win the popular vote, she's about 400,000 behind including Flordia but not Michigan.

Latest North Carolina polling has her in statistical dead heat with Obama, he is heavily favored in North Carolina. If he barely wins or loses there thats very bad for him.

She could win Indiana, she'll most likely win Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Kentucky and Puerto Rico.

Obama should win South Dakota, Oregon and Montana.

If Clinton comes out of this having won every major state (except Obama's home state) and having won the popular vote. How can the supers deny her the nomination?


by liberalj on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 08:14:40 AM EST

They will deny her... (2.00 / 2)

unless she can pull out a delegate lead; and that is very unlikely.

Unfortunately, we are in a situation where Sen. Obama cannot win in the fall, and Sen Clinton cannot win now.

Only the democratic party can manage to lose this year.

Go Howard Dean.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 09:11:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How we know this is over.... (none / 0)

Because she will be behind by 100+ delegates, she will have lost some other key states and she will be behind in fundraising as well.


What would LBJ do?
by Socks The Cat on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 08:16:20 AM EST

Re: How we know this is over.... (1.00 / 2)

And she's only 400,000 popular votes behind, if you include states that aren't being counted because they broke rules endorsed by every candidate.

There is, however, a clear path to victory for HIllary. If Rush Limbaugh can register over half a million Pennsylvania wingnuts as Democrats in the next 8 hours, she might just win the popular vote.


by vermontprog on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 08:21:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How we know this is over.... (2.00 / 1)

The problem is. The idea of counting FL in the popular vote count never caught on. No one outside of Clinton loyalist do it. Even undecided dem analysts on the news use the 700-800k lead figures.

No one counts FL or MI. That's why she lost. Her campaigned failed to get MI and FL to count in any meaningful way.


by Cheebs on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 08:44:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If we ignore two states... (2.00 / 3)

Obama wins!


by catfish1 on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 09:39:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How we know this is over.... (2.00 / 1)

Do you think SD's can ignore the fact that more then 2 million people voted (even if the delegates don't get seated)?


by cmugirl90 on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 10:58:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How we know this is over.... (none / 0)

Hillary Clinton can do as she wishes. She has every right to fight to the convention. And I expect her hardest core of supporters to do so too. But if the superdelegates follow Richardson and call for this to end, hopefully the great middle of the Democratic party will put aside any lingering doubts about Obama and rally around him for the general election; the same would be true if Hillary were he nominee. But the time for which the primary season honestly helps the party seems to have passed. By elrod

I have one thing to say: Hillary's supporters ARE the middle of the democratic party.


by Check077 on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 08:46:19 AM EST

Re: How we know this is over.... (2.00 / 1)

But they aren't the majority of the party.

African Americans + liberals seems to have proven to be a coalition that can win.


by Cheebs on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 08:47:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How we know this is over.... (none / 0)

Actually, Hillary's supporters ARE the majority in the party...at least right now.

Obama's winning coalition includes a lot of independents and republicans, but he has gotten fewer democratic votes.

Unfortunately, a lot of HRC's support is now ready to bolt to the other side... in part because the 8% of the population that justifies Rev. Wright is on the democratic side, and a lot of HRC's supporters cannot coexist with this faction.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 09:15:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How we know this is over.... (none / 0)

don't forget young / college voters, and union leadership.  You might also add a substantial portion of Hispanics, if Richardson's endorsement is able to swing some more his way.  Here in the Pacific Northwest he also gets a lot of support from blue collar types (I think the aerospace blue collar voters are a bit more sophisticated than the rust belt ones that Clinton's done so well with)

It's a historic, diverse, inclusive, and powerful coalition - my wife and I are very  proud to be part of it.  


by ruskin on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 10:49:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How we know this is over.... (2.00 / 1)

I suggest you look through numerous comments in other diaries and be prepared to hand out that $100. The Clintons have not given up on the idea of a Florida and/or Michigan revote. Here's their plan as I see it. Obama continues to slide in national polls versus McCain, and in democratic polls versus Hillary. Hillary continues her rise in national polls versus McCain. Hillary wins Pennsylvania big, by at least 15%. She also wins NC, KY, WV, IN, and Puerto Rico. In other words, she ends the primary season in early May as the candidate with all the momentum, and huge press coverage of her great comeback. Meanwhile the press coverage for Obama would no doubt focus on his late primary collapse and how he would be backing into the nomination as a severely damaged candidate.

So the Democrats have a real dilemma on their hands. How can they give the nomination to the candidate who by then would be considered almost a sure loser in the fall. One obvious option would be for the DNC to bite the bullet and put the Michigan and Florida revotes back on the table. Keep in mind that these other primaries will be over by mid-May, making an early June primary in Florida and Michigan very feasible. Basically the nomination would then be decided by the winner of these two states. Obama would have to prove he could reverse Hillary's momentum, and Hillary would have to earn the nomination through a fair revote.

The thing about this scenario is that it isn't really far-fetched. The current trajectory of the nomination battle is basically playing out the way I've outlined it here. That's why the Obama camp would like to put an end to the battle even before the Pennsylvania primary by getting high-profile endorsements from people like Richardson to put pressure on Hillary to concede. The problem I have with that is that I consider Obama to be seriously damaged already, perhaps hopelessly so for the general election. I also consider the shifting focus from the war to the economy as by far the number one issue among voters to be playing into Hillary's strongest asset, which is her attachment to the unqualified economic success of her husband's administration. If the economy is the top topic, she's our best candidate.


by bouvougan on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 09:38:11 AM EST

Re: How we know this is over.... (1.00 / 1)

No primary in MI or FL can be put together in a month.  Nice straw-grasping though.


by Builderman on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 12:00:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How we know this is over.... (none / 0)

According to you? You appear to be the one grasping at straws when you use that lame argument. Of course it could be, and it really would be closer to two months to prepare to still have it held sometime in June. The question is not whether it can be done, but whether it will be.


by bouvougan on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 03:46:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How we know this is over.... (none / 0)

All this talk about math, soooo boring.
Not at all relevant. Obama must continue to work hard and campaign honestly like he has done during this campaign, get back on chamge, hope and substance (unlike the last couple of weeks) and win in Pennsylvania or win big in North Carolina.

That will have a much bigger impact than all the bla-di-bla-di-bla about math.


by hebi on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 10:06:06 AM EST

More (subtle) Obama propaganda? (2.00 / 1)

The Politico story, itself a distortion, and those that chose to use it (and spin it/further distort it) over the past couple of days as Obama propaganda are at fault here. This would include this diarist, as well.

Clinton will continue to raise money, despite the "money problems" propaganda, as well. (I've heard she raised somewhere around $3-$4 million in just the past 72 hours, if not more; and she's been doing quite well in that category all month, too. Maybe not as well as Obama; but Obama outraised her in the lead-up to March 4th, and she still held her own.)

Circling back around to the Politico piece, the following was buried in it, at the very end (in terms of how it's been recanted), at least as far as the unnamed Clinton insider's comments were concerned:

"This issue [Wright] is the first thing that's come along that I think is potentially fatal to his electability argument," the strategist said.

Then, of course, there's the other elephant in the room, and that's the reality that neither candidate may not enough votes to obtain the nomination until the Convention. Obama has 1,622 delegates as of this writing, according to the AP.  He needs 2,025 delegates to win. People keep referencing the math; but, the reality is the numbers support BOTH candidates staying in the race all the way down the homestretch. The details get in the way of this type of Obama propaganda all the time. It is what it is.


by bobswern on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 10:34:47 AM EST

If the DNC (none / 0)

screws FL and MI and Hillary....

Then I'm DONE!


by nikkid on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 12:23:50 PM EST

Re: How we know this is over.... (none / 0)

Don't worry. You'll probably dare to peek out from your bunker when Hillary is our nominee.


Grumpy, reluctant, sore-losing, unhappy, irritable Hillary supporter for Barack Obama 2008
by DemAC on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 12:37:11 PM EST


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