Pennsylvania 6-54321

Here's some terrific work, jerome

Handicapping the upcoming Pennsylvania primary, many pundits are saying in effect that as Ohio went on March 4, so Pennsylvania will go on April 22, citing "similar demographics."

As such, it's useful to compare the demographics of the two states as a kind of bottom-up approach to predicting the PA outcome. I did a statistical cluster analysis on Ohio's 88 counties, classifying them according to five variables: population density, black population, household income, high school graduation and college graduation. The analysis (k-means clustering) was set to report 6 different clusters. Here's a map of the result:

The six clusters are defined roughly as follows:


Hillary-billies

Low income, low education, low population density, 99% white; supports Hillary at 80%.

Ed-necks

Like the Hillary-billies, just a little less so (slightly more income, education, etc), 97% white; supports Hillary at 70%.

Proletariat

Medium income, medium education, exurban, 94% white; supports Hillary at 61%.

Hoosierdom

Medium income, medium education, rural, 98% white; supports Hillary at 61%.

Crunchy-cons

High income, very high education, medium population density, 97% white; supports Hillary at 55%.

Obama-crats

Medium income, high population density, high education, urban, 79% white; supports Obama at 54%.

So while the clustering was done on non-political factors like education, income and race, there are distinct political differences in Hillary support, reaching a remarkable 80% in deep Appalachia, and 70% among Appalachian "Ed-necks"--a pun on PA Gov. Ed Rendell, who famously noted that some whites are not ready to vote for a black candidate:

Rendell pegs the white racist effect at a "tiny percentage" of the electorate, but notes that small percentages can determine elections.

As for how these clusters break down in share of the total Democratic electorate in Ohio that turned out on March 4:

Certainly the Hillary-billies are a tiny slice of the Democratic pie, being thinly-populated counties that have a fair number of Republicans (though generally going for Bill Clinton in 1992). The Ed-necks, supporting Hillary at 70%, are more significant. The two groups together represent 12% of the Democratic turnout in Ohio.

The only group that Obama prevailed with is the Obama-crats, i.e., the populous urban counties with significant minorities of blacks. This is the largest cluster, almost half the Democratic turnout, but even there his margin was not large (54%).

Among the largely white counties, Obama comes closest with the Crunchy-cons, traditionally Republican suburban counties that may have had some progressive encroachment of late. He actually did squeak by in Delaware county, the county just north of Columbus (Franklin). That was the only non-urban county he took in Ohio, and that only barely. In fact, he only came out on top in 5 counties:

The strongest factor was the percent black population in the county. Here's a scatter plot of Hillary% vs. black% in each county:

Overall, Hillary won 55%-45% in Ohio.

So that's the uphill battle Obama faces in Pennsylvania. The question remains how similar exactly are the demographics in the two states. Here's the result of a similar cluster analysis of Pennsylvania's counties:

So the hill is even steeper for Obama in Pennsylvania. Only one county, Philadelphia County (synonymous with the city limits), is "Obama-crat" territory, having a urban population with 45% blacks. Allegheny County (Pittsburgh) has only 13% blacks. In comparison, Cuyahoga County in Ohio (Cleveland) has 29% blacks and Obama was only able to eke out a 53-46 victory there. It would seem that the odds are against him winning Allegheny County. In fact, there's a possibility he will only take Philadelphia County and perhaps Centre County, the latter being the home of Penn State. The suburban "Crunchy-con" counties west of Philadelphia might offer some chance, but they'd be about toss-ups.

Here is a comparison of the six groups in both Ohio and Pennsylvania, in terms of share of the Democratic electorate (projected in the case of PA):

So the Hillary-billy/Ed-neck fraction is much greater (24% combined compared to 12% for Ohio). The Obama-crat fraction is greatly reduced, comprising only Philadelphia, and "Hoosierdom," where Hillary can generally expect in excess of 60% of the vote, is also increased.

It's possible to simply take the Hillary preference in each of the six groups in Ohio and apply it to the same groups in PA to get a projected outcome, but some minor tweaking is in order, primarily for differences in racial composition in the analogous groups, which has been so determinative of the vote. For example, although the "Obama-crat" county group is much reduced in PA, it has 45% blacks compared to 21% in Ohio.

Here's the demographic comparison of the six groups in each state:

For the projected PA primary results, the percent turnout of each group is projected to match that of the analogous group in Ohio. The projected Hillary percent is adjusted from the value in Ohio, modified to account for differences in education, black population, etc.--obviously not an exact science. For example, the Proletariat group in PA has more college degrees than in Ohio (25% vs. 19%). Since college graduates tend to break something like 60/40 for Obama, this difference would give him a percent or two additional.

Given the projected numbers in the table, the projected outcome is a 57%-43% victory for Hillary. If anyone would like to try different projected numbers, here's the spreadsheet:

OH/PA Cluster Analysis (xls)

An additional wrinkle in Pennsylvania is that the primary is closed to all but registered Democrats--no crossover of Republicans and independents allowed, in contrast to Ohio where the Democratic primary was open to all registered voters. In Ohio, there was significant crossover for Obama, as well as for Clinton. By some conventional wisdom, Hillary does better among mainstream Democrats, so this could help her in PA. However, a case could be made that it might help Obama, for instance if there is significant racial prejudice component to the voting, it could be that that effect is stronger in Republican/independent crossovers than in the Democratic Party, so excluding the former might help Obama. It should be very interesting to see how the voting patterns compare to Ohio's open primary.



Display:


tips (2.00 / 22)


by techfidel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:24:08 PM EST

Since Hillary can't win, you wasted your time. (none / 0)


by cypruspoint on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:04:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: tips (none / 0)

WOW!  That is excellent information and presentation.  Thank you.  

Between Obama's dropping poll numbers and Hillary's strong staying power, it is no wonder that Obama and his followers are skittering around like water on a hot skillet trying to figure out a way to force Hillary to drop out of the race.  With Obama's inability to win in state primaries with strong electoral college numbers and the continuing revelations in his legal problems with Rezko, it is obvious that he would never be able to be elected in the general election.

Although it would take the SDs for either candidate to come up with 2025, I have a hunch that there is even more bad news for Obama on the horizon and he will either be arrested or some sort of additional information that demonstrates that he is totally unsuited to be President will erupt.  That is the Karma he has been sowing and I expect it to revisit him before this is over.  Thank god, Hillary has run a very clean campaign and we do not have to worry about that problem.


by macmcd on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 12:36:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: tips (none / 0)

Are you pro-Clinton or not? Because your comments read like hyperbolic irony.


by noop on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 02:11:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 2)

Wow, amazing depth!  Fantastic study.


by mjc888 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:29:27 PM EST

Yes n/t (2.00 / 1)


by techfidel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:41:51 PM EST

Re: Yes n/t (2.00 / 1)

so it will probably be a bigger margin for HRC


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:56:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bigger margin (2.00 / 1)

I'd think that the Wright affair will really hurt his current effort to recruit/register Republican and independent voters in PA.


by techfidel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 04:05:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bigger margin (2.00 / 1)

I agree. I reside in a Crunchy-cons county...should be interesting...


by Liberty on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 04:18:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bigger margin (2.00 / 1)

thanks....great analysis..
you put alot of work into this;

"I don't find my church particularily controversial."

This passport thingy is "deeply disturbing".

Barack Obama


by Patriot2008 on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 12:02:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bigger margin (none / 0)

I am guessing that you are talking about the fact that EVERY candidate's passport file has been breached.  I guess McCain and Hillary just didn't need to create a distraction with it.  Huh.  


by macmcd on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 12:39:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 5)

Most interesting analysis, and well done and well explained.
Would love to see the same criteria applied to certain other states where primaries will be held - KY, IN, WV, NC.  Any others?
by susie on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 03:57:13 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 6)

NC, I think, has a whole different population basis, I don't know that the segments would apply too well, but IN/KY/WV, all of those do.


by Jerome Armstrong on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 04:05:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 2)

Thanks. Very interesting number crunching and nice maps. It looks like it took a lot of work.


by LakersFan on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 04:01:43 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 5)

Terrific work. I fixed your video (you've got to save, then insert the script  in edit.

Pretty amazing that Obama will most likely win just a single county in PA. We'll obviously have the Wright wrinkle, but a couple of other things at play too. Obama has even less party support in PA than he did in OH, Clinton has the support of Philly's very popular Mayor. The Clinton segments, Hillary-billies, Ed-necks, have a higher average education. At this time, a 57-43 decision looks pretty optimistic for Obama. That would result in about about a 25-30 delegate bump for Clinton. I'm guessing Clinton gains 31 delegates, but that might change.

I hope we get to see Indiana too!


by Jerome Armstrong on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 04:03:15 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 2)

Thanks for fixing the video--I didn't notice it was broken.

A few days ago I mentioned this analysis to someone from Penn State, and he says that he expects Obama to win in Centre County, with an enrollment of 40,000 Nittany Lions. I checked a somewhat analogous county in Massachusetts, Hampshire County, home to UMass, Amherst, Smith, etc. Obama prevailed slightly with 53% there. The ratio of college students is greater in Centre county, so I think this guy is right that Obama will win there in high single digits.


by techfidel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 04:13:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 0)

Penn State is not UMass, never mind Hampshre, Smith or Amherst Colleges. Hampshire County is one of the most liberal/radical counties in one of the most liberal states in the country.


by freemansfarm on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 04:55:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I tend to think he will win a few more (2.00 / 1)

I grew up in the state and lived there for a brief time in my later adult life and have often studied its voting patterns.

In addition to Philly, I suspect he may very well win the collar counties of Montgomery and Delaware.  Montgomery is similar to some of the suburban counties where he did so well in VA.  Delaware is lower income on the whole than Montgomery but has a significant African American population.  

I'm not positive he will win the county with Penn State (he didn't win the county with Knoxville, TN), but I would give him the edge based on the primary history so far.  I would also expect him to win Dauphin (Harrisburg).  The county is probably Republican overall, but Harrisburg city is majority black and lots younger white liberals live in the city.  Finally, I would be mildly surprised if he didn't win Alleghany county (Pittsburgh and collar towns) although his margin would be similar to Cuyahoga in Ohio than it would be to the Cincinnati county.  

I could easily see him winning those counties but no others.


by lombard on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 04:25:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I tend to think he will win a few more (none / 0)

I think this is pretty level headed analysis Lombard...

I tend to believe Obama will do better in PA than he did OH, mainly because the days leading up to OH were so bad for him and he focused so much more on Texas.

The big question in my mind is how much will the Wright flap hurt him; but being as it occurred so far out from Primary day I think it will be mostly forgotten by then.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:22:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks! (none / 0)

The author's 57-43 prediction seems reasonable to me but, I agree, I could definitely see Obama doing better than that.


by lombard on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:58:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I tend to think he will win a few more (none / 0)

What do you base this on?

And even more importantly what effect is this going to have a month from now?

I think if the election were held tomorrow he would be hurt badly by it; but the election isn't being held tomorrow.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:25:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Loved it! Thanks! (2.00 / 1)

My home county is designated as Hillarybilly territory.  Although I haven't lived there for many years, I would say your analysis is right on!


by lombard on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 04:03:25 PM EST

Re: Loved it! Thanks! (2.00 / 2)

My home county in Maryland is just a little ways south of that part of PA, so I'm guessing I'm from Hillarybilly territory myself.

I guess in this case I'm not going to complain about  what he's named it :)


by daria g on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 02:35:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Great piece of work (2.00 / 3)

K-means clustering and all ... which reminds me, I should go back to work.


by Sieglinde on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 04:06:08 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 1)

That's an incredibly detailed diary, kudos. 57-43 I'd say sounds about right, based on the results. A 25-30 delegate pickup would be accepted by the Clinton camp I think, though if anything i think 57-43 is optimistic for Obama.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 04:10:54 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 1)

I think it is hard to pin numbers this far out... but I would be surprised if he got inside 10.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:23:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow (2.00 / 1)

Better than any analysis I'll see on teevee, I'm sure, despite not liking the outcome.

Obama has his work cut out for him in PA.  However, he just went on the air and I think the Wright-speech dynamic is the first many Pennsylvanians are seeing of him.  I don't think Americans vote angry - if the election were next week, he'd be toast... but it's not.  If he can build on the speech, on the Richardson endorsement, I think he can close to within 10.

He's just gone on the air with what I think is his best bio ad.  He's still got a substantial money lead.  He's got a month.

I'd like to see him be daring and just park in PA for the next month, go all out and try to end the race with a win --- but that's certainly just not a wise strategy... The Obama campaign has run this race very smart from a tactical perspective - so it certainly doesn't make sense to ditch a winning strategy.  

PA is an NY neighbor -- just as WI was an IL neighbor...  probably best to play for 10 pts.


by zonk on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 04:27:51 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 1)

Great diary, rec'd. I thank you for your hard work. One beef, however, do you really need to use terms like "Hillary-billy" and "Ed-neck?" Derogatory terms stereotyping lower class white citizens is unnecessary and demeaning.


by freemansfarm on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 04:57:51 PM EST

Hey, don't worry, I loved the term! (2.00 / 1)

I grew up in one of those PA Hillerybilly counties.


by lombard on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:07:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey, don't worry, I loved the term! (none / 0)

Sorry, you may love the term, but plenty of Appalachians find it offensive. There is simply no reason to use such terms in this otherwise excellant diary.


by freemansfarm on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:35:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You illustrate why people don't like liberals (2.00 / 1)

Humorless and thin skinned.  Utterly serious, pious, and self-righteous about everything.

And, by the way, we Pennsylvanians don't call ourselves Appalachians.


by lombard on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:55:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You illustrate why people don't like liberals (2.00 / 0)

Whatever. I have to say that it's OK to use to a term that many people find insulting, or else I am "humorless." Do you think prejudice against people who live in the mountains is funny? Whether PA people use the term "Appalachains" or not, it is not a term of abuse, and is not resented by many as is the term "hillbillies."


by freemansfarm on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:02:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"I'm proud to be an Okie from Muskogee" (2.00 / 1)

We know we're crackers but we're not ashamed of that.  And even those of us who moved away, attained a higher level of education, and live in more "sophisticated" areas, look back fondly to our roots.  We don't look down on the people who live back home and we're not ashamed of where we came from.  So, we are able to laugh at ourselves.

I not implying "Appalachian" is a derogatory term.  I'm simply saying PA hill people don't call themselves that.  That term is normally used for mountain areas of WV and further south.  


by lombard on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:16:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re (2.00 / 0)

Many people don't like the term "cracker" either. Why do you think that you get to decide what is or isn't a derogatory term? If I were an Irish-American, would that give me license to "approve" the term "Mick?" If I were Jewish, would give me license to "approve" the term "Yid?" The diarist simply has no reason to use terms that play off "hiilbilly" and "redneck." He could just as easily have used different, non-controversial terms. Your "responses" are simply not responsive to this simple point. Please explain to me why the use of such terms was necessaary, or let it go. But spare me any further spurious arguments that you get to decide what is or isn't a derogatory term.


by freemansfarm on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:22:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, as a "mick" (none / 0)

I don't take offense to that term, either, and I've never met another "mick" who did.


by lombard on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:35:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, as a "mick" (2.00 / 0)

Again, I've known met plenty who did. And your claim to the contrary cuts no ice. And, again, thanks for ducking the issue. Why couldn't the diarist have used other terms, that are not even arguably objectionable? What do these terms add to his otherwise great diary? Again, please answer this question and spare me anymore of your personal or anecdotal evidence. Let me put it even more bluntly: I don't give a crap what group terms you think are OK or not OK, even if you are a member of the groups in question. Explain to me why the use of such terms is necessary  in this diary or STFU.


by freemansfarm on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:40:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Because Hillarybilly is cute and funny (2.00 / 1)

I'd rather read a diarist who makes me chuckle than a PC liberal who drones on sanctimoniously about offensiveness.  He made me laugh whereas you just bore me - as your type usually does.  Is that a good enough explanation?


by lombard on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:44:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Another alternative (2.00 / 1)

I was thinking that Hillbillary was pretty funny too, but opted for Hillary-billy.


by techfidel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:48:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillarybilly is perfect, thank you! (2.00 / 1)

Melds the term of hillbilly with Hillary supporter.  And, as one who hails from one of those PA mountain counties who is also a Hillary supporter, I gladly embrace the term!


by lombard on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:03:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Because Hillarybilly is cute and funny (2.00 / 0)

No. As I said, I don't think it's funny. As for my "boring" you, I did not ask you to respond to my first post, or any of the subsequent ones. You have "droned" on and on with your totally unpersuasive personal and anecdotal arguments, and havenever addressed the real issue. It is obvious that you have noting persuasive to say, and have now resorted to insults.


by freemansfarm on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:03:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You aren't much fun are you? (none / 0)

That would be my guess.  

Look, wise up before you get that old.  I suspect from your highly indignant tone that you aren't that old and maybe you still can learn.  Most people aren't looking for someone to lecture to them why they should feel like victims and be offended.  Lighten up.  You only hurt yourself and only weak people are going to feel impressed by your lectures.


by lombard on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 01:08:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You aren't much fun are you? (none / 0)

Sounds like you're the one doing the lecturing.


by freemansfarm on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 01:18:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

On using Hillbilly and Redneck references (none / 0)

These people are being crushed financially and feel Obama is quixotic and airy-fairy.  They have more faith that Hillary can actually do something and do something fast that will help them.

It's wrong to keep reducing them to racist hicks.  (And I don't think the use here is too extreme - I laughed at Hillary-Billys myself BUT I have seen more offensive terms used elsewhere)  That, too, is a form of bigotry.

Voter registration in Centre County last stood at 44% GOP 38% DEM which the Centre Daily  said evidenced a growing trend for Democrats.  They printed that data about two weeks ago.  (I read it sitting in Fetterolf's barbershop in State College) I deduced from that that most of the students at Penn State might well be registered to vote elsewhere.

Anyone know?


by PadraigPearse on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 05:27:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re (none / 0)

Know I'm late to this quibble, but could'nt resist the fun. On mom's side the maiden name is Hatfield, of fueding fame. Our branch got tired of the fight and headed to Illinois. On dad's side
straight off the boat irish as granny was first generation american, so I feel a unique and funny oppurtunity arises. Hillbilly was a term used by the oppressed Irish to descrbe the Scottish Protestant squatters that the crown setteled throughout Ireland to displace the locals, particularly in the north of the homeland. They were called Hill Billies as they were usually settled in either the elevated parts of towns or the actual hills. This also alluded to their Scottish homeland ( the Highlands )and they supported William of Orange, who was a protestant. No doubt the term made it over here and most likely used as a term of derision by the micks to describe the snooty Scotch-Irish. As a descendent of Hllbillies, and the shanty Irish I would not object if a hilbilly called me a mick, because I'm Catholic. However if a yank called me a hillbilly, I might be faced with a quandry. As a recent "Hatfield" descendent I would probably do what my mother and the others from Illinois did, remind them that some Hatfields left the fight cause they were tired of it. Both really describe a religious and tribal distinction that has been lost in translation. For this american descendent I suppose Mick trumps Hillbilly. Besides anyone knows that mick as a derisive term only works with the preceding dumb attached to it, same with the polish derivative and both have to do more with Catholic prejudice than anything else, of course Kraut has to do with food but that's another story.
workingclass artist
by workingclass artist on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 05:24:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Appalachians (none / 0)

The lower Appalachians (Cambria County) advertises the place as the Laural Highlands if I remember correctly.  Totally off topic I know.

But to the Author of this post, I think that you're spot on.


by lisadawn82 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:42:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, very nice area (none / 0)

lower Cambria and Somerset counties


by lombard on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:59:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 1)

As an Appalachian born in Ohio myself I don't find it offensive.  It's what we were calling ourselves long before it became an epithet.


by hearthmoon on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:47:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

Many Appalachains don't like it. Whether you like it or not is not the issue.


by freemansfarm on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:48:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

The thing about the word "hillbilly" is that we were calling ourselves by that name long before it became a pejorative.  Should a group of people abandon the name they have for themselves when it becomes used as a pejorative?  The word "Yankee" is used pejoratively in most of the world, but that's not how Americans in the Northeast use the word.


by hearthmoon on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:06:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

freemansfarm can't stand our lack of offense (none / 0)

As a dedicated PC liberal, he cannot tolerate our sanguine attitudes about these little names.


by lombard on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:40:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you OK with "Hoosierdom"? (2.00 / 1)

According to Jeffrey Graf at Indiana University:


The best evidence, however, suggests that "Hoosier" was a term of contempt and opprobrium common in the upland South and used to denote a rustic, a bumpkin, a countryman, a roughneck, a hick or an awkward, uncouth or unskilled fellow. Although the word's derogatory meaning has faded, it can still be heard in its original sense, albeit less frequently than its cousins "Cracker" and "Redneck."

I think the original term had a wider use than just Indiana. There is an old Abolitionist song Lincoln and Liberty that goes like this:


Hurrah for the choice of the nation
Our chieftain so brave and so true
We'll go for the great reformation
For Lincoln and liberty too.

We'll go for the son of Kentucky
Our hero of hoosierdom through
For the people are everywhere calling
For Lincoln and Liberty too.

For my purposes, it's really just a mnemonic, as are the other terms.


by techfidel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:41:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you OK with "Hoosierdom"? (none / 0)

Borderline cases don't invalidate my point. Many mountain people object to the term "hillbilly." Perhaps fewer Indianans object to "Hoosier." Again, how does this justify the diarists use of the former term? And what is gained by his use of this, as opposed to some clearly unobjectionable, term?


by freemansfarm on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:00:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you OK with "Hoosierdom"? (none / 0)

I went to U of Penn and always enjoyed the humor of Fighting Quakers myself. Hossiers ( having lived there ) and Buckeyes  (brother in law) are pretty touchy when it comes to this cred.


workingclass artist
by workingclass artist on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 04:51:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 1)

Considering the reaction that the working class had to Obama's speech, I would say that Hillary should do really well in most areas of PA as this analysis shows.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:26:03 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

Whatever reaction they had was to the Fox News version of it, not the speech itself, so if Hillary benefits it will be because of her help from the Republicans.


by bernardpliers on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:34:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

And were you complaining when the Republicans were voting for Obama? Of course not right? After all it's okay if it benefits Obama. It's the Obama rules.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:46:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

More power to her if she turn Republicans into democrats, but she's working towards a much much smaller Democratic party consisting pretty of only the Clintons.


by bernardpliers on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:31:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, I'd say she has about half of us now (none / 0)

But Obama will only have about 3/4 ths of us if he gets the nomination.


by lombard on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:05:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

No one's complaining if they vote Democrat in the Fall. But do you really think that Hillary's Republicans will support her in the general election? They were 25% of her vote in Mississippi, up from around 2-4% before McCain won his nomination. Whereas Obama's numbers with Republicans have stayed constant during and after the Republican race. So, there's a pretty big difference between these two situations.


by noop on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 02:34:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

yes, we all know that Republicans who vote in the Dem primary for Obama are "good" while the ones that vote for Hillary are "bad". Frankly, I would like closed primaries so we wouldn't have to deal with the GOP messing in our primaries.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 03:06:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

I'm confused. Your preference for closed primaries implies that you think Clinton has been benefiting from a Republican sabotage vote. However, your first sentence is a more of an argumentative swipe. Please clarify your position.


by noop on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 04:21:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

I guess that there is such an obvious double standard regarding Obama does'nt factor in to your reasoning. After the speech he described his granny as just another "  typical white person ". These things count especially from a candidate who insists that words matter. I'm positively gobsmacked at the kid glove treatment. You can be sure that the GOP will not be so gentle, and the working class of any race has a keen nose for sniffing out hypocrisy. Having to deal with management daily and see it for what it is. Just an opinion from a typical working class voter.


workingclass artist
by workingclass artist on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 04:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 1)

Truly impressive work.

Do IN, KY, NC, and WV too!


by arkansasdemocrat on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:30:12 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 1)

Nice analysis, but so what?  Obama will erase some portion of Hillary's gain when North Carolina votes, and the remaining contests don't offer enough delegates for her to overcome his lead.

Seems to me that leaves Hillary and her supporters stuck in exactly the same place they have been for the past month--  hoping that the superdelegates are going tobe so impressed with a HRC win in PA that they are going to summon up the courage to overlook Obama's lead and trump that by handing her nomination, thereby pissing off and alienating the huge African-American and youth components of the Democratic Party.

If that happens, we can kiss the November election goodbye, and we'll have to spend the next three decades rebuilding the Party.  I think there is enough wisdom among the SD's and the Party elders to prevent that from coming to pass.


by global yokel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:33:01 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 0)

Good call.  The entire Clinton campaign now revolves around the Penn primary.  And once everyone realizes that it doesn't mean squat, hopefully she'll finally go home.  One can hope anyway.

It also really concerns me that Hillary's support is mainly among lower education whites.  What does that mean?


by Globe199 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:38:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

your concern means that you have a prejudice against hillbillies.


by hearthmoon on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:51:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 1)

I have a serious inquiry I would like to make on this comment:

It also really concerns me that Hillary's support is mainly among lower education whites.  What does that mean?

______
why do some keep pushing the meme that HRC supporters are "lower education whites"

and what does "what does that mean" really mean?

Maybe it means the Dem base is behind HRC?

Most of the Dem base are "lower education whites'
Hexl most of PA is "lower education whites"
Most of the USA is "lower education whites" and "lower education Latinas" and "lower education Seniors" too

Is it okay for BO to have "lower education AAs" ?

but no other candidate should have this base?

I thought I read some place here that something like less than 1% of the US pop had advanced degrees..

do BO supporters not want the votes from the blue collar Dems? We cant win without them in a GE..

Just wanted to mention it because it really turns some Dem base voters off and will certainly not help unify the Dems later.....

It would be a pretty small electorate if you are only looking for what some people may call "overeducated classists" which is kind of how it comes off reading these comments. Why not only give the vote to landowners then? Really go whole hog on this kind of thought process....after all only property holders are really 'invested' in the country, that is how people justified disenfranchising the general populace in the past.

I am asking an honest question, and really seeking a meaningful answer hopefully it wont be attacked....


ginaswo
by ginaswo on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:53:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 0)

I think I agree with you.  I don't like when people say 'latte-sipping liberals' vote for Obama and I imagine Clinton supporters don't like when people call her supporters 'under-educated rednecks'.

Personally, I'm an Obama supporter and I don't drink lattes -- too old for all that caffeine and too sensible to pay $3.50 for a cup of coffee.


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

Keep up the demeaning and condescending name calling and referencing.  This is the fine example of Unity B O wants to offer as well.  And folks are seeing through all the nastiness, as you see by Obama's taking NUMBERS!


by environmentally blue on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:35:40 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

TYPO not taking  s/b  TANKING NUMBERS.

People are seeing the realities, not the myth of empty speeches, JUST WORDS.


by environmentally blue on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:36:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)


And folks are seeing through all the nastiness, as you see by Obama's taking NUMBERS!

I think you got it right the first time. People are seeing through the the campaign of nastiness and Obama's taking numbers away from Hillary. It makes more sense that way. People are tired of the dirty tricks games. I was entirely comfortable voting for Clinton up until a month ago. Once the whole kitchen sink strategy started she lost me. Simply put put, she placed her desire to win ahead of the needs of the party and country. I realize that both campaigns have been playing it rough lately, but I feel that the Obama campaign has kept their attacks fact-based, and showed appropriate restraint. I can't say the same for the Clinton campaign.


by noop on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 02:46:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 1)

Impressive.  Very extensive.
Thanks
by nzubechukwu on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:39:09 PM EST

Good Job Skippy (1.00 / 1)

Maybe the Clinton campaign has a spot for you analyzing the election based on how many teeth you have.


by h8gop on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:42:25 PM EST

Re: Good Job Skippy (none / 0)

Fascinating - this is H8GOP's first comment on myDD. Wonder what his/her name was before?


by OtherLisa on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:58:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good Job Skippy (2.00 / 0)

actually, this is my first post on mydd. I never had another user name... and apparently, none of you understand sarcasm


by h8gop on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:01:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 0)

Wow! Amazing detail
incredibly informative

thank you so much!!


ginaswo
by ginaswo on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:44:00 PM EST

Butler Co. is definitely not proletariat (2.00 / 1)

I don't know where you got your data, but Butler Co.(where I live - just north of Allegheny Co.) is not as you describe it.

It could be because the southern part of the county is heavily populated w/ transplants from the Pittsburgh area who have moved there to escape the taxes in Allegheny Co..  But north of Cranberry, Butler County is poor, 98% white and far more similar to neighboring Armstrong County than Allegheny.


by jaywillie on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:50:04 PM EST

Re: Butler Co. is definitely not proletariat (2.00 / 1)

This is the census data I have for Butler:

220 people/square-mile
1% black
$47,773 median household income
87% high school graduates
23% college graduates

$47K is a pretty good family income, compared to the average--above Allegheny County even at $42K. Based on what you say, it looks like the Allegheny transplants are dominating the averages in Butler, and they're well-paid.


by techfidel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:23:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think that is the case (none / 0)

It is the transplants that skew the averages.  The further north you get, the more economically depressed it is.


by jaywillie on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 02:38:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 1)

Oof!  Shades of Prob and Stat!  (which I hated!!)

Maybe the Clinton campaign has a spot for you analyzing the election based on how many teeth you have.

Ya know, that's the kind of crap that's uncalled for.


by fredster on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:52:57 PM EST

Very pretty, but . . . (2.00 / 0)

It's totally pointless. Senator Barak Obama has already won and will be our Democratic nominee for president.  I suspect he will also do much better than expected in PA too - especially when the super delagates start will following Bill Richardson's lead and back Obama in droves.  It really is high time for Hillary to do herself and the party a favor - bow out gracefully while she has a shred of dignity left.


by susanWAstate on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:55:54 PM EST

I know that's the mantra (2.00 / 2)

But if he really was Mr. Inevitable, there wouldn't be anywhere near the caterwauling we see coming out of the Obama camp that Hillary should drop out. He is in big trouble if he loses from here on out, and continues to take a hit on Wright-gate. In any case, he will not enter the convention with a majority, and the unpledged delegates will decide if he is at all viable at that point.


by techfidel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:29:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I know that's the mantra (2.00 / 0)

That's not why I am 'caterwauling'. (recc'ing you for using caterwauling)

I want Obama to have more time fighting McCain.  If we have to wait until August, McCain will have been coasting along on the straight talk express unopposed for months.  And then Obama will have only 2 months to run against him.

This primary has been endless, I'm tired of it.  There's nothing more Clinton and Obama have to say to each other or to us.  I have money I want to send to Obama for his GE run against McCain and I don't want to wait until the fall to send it.


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:41:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I know that's the mantra (2.00 / 1)

You can contribute now and designate it for the general. Then you get the positive feelings of Obama support for the next few months, and your money back as a consolation if he bails.


by souvarine on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:39:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I know that's the mantra (none / 0)

That's illogical. If he really is inevitable, he could start ignoring her right now.

Obama is in serious danger of going down--no matter how often his supporters shriek that he is inevitabe.


by techfidel on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 07:46:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 1)

Let's assume that the analysis presented here by 'techfidel' is correct, and that Hillary Clinton is on track to win a solid victory in Pennsylvania.

If I were a superdelegate, I'd be thus inclined to pull the trigger for Obama now, while he still has a commanding lead, rather than wait until the Party is forced into a situation where Obama still leads in pledged delegates, but Hillary has closed the gap.  That scenario is only going to create greater divisiveness within the Party, and it puts the SD's in a more difficult position.

Let's recall that HRC had 96 committed SD's before Obama even got into the race.  IMHO, those 96 acted irresponsibly, as they didn't even allow the various contestants in the race to make their case for the nomination; they had already gotten into Hillary's camp.

At the moment, we have witnessed 19 debates and 40 primaries, so the remaining SD's could make a commitment on a much more solid basis that Hillary's original group of committed SD's.


by global yokel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 05:55:54 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

If the election were held today she would win 65% of the vote in PA


by karajan72 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:10:01 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 0)

Universal,

Thanks for the response, but you didn't address the fundamental question that every Hillary supporter has been avoiding:

What is your prescription for holding the Party together if Hillary wins the nomination on the basis of the superdelegates trumping Obama's lead in pledged delegates?  You can talk about Pastor Wright and Hillary's momentum, and so forth--  but when it's crunch time the SD's are going to have the fate of the Party in their hands.  Until somebody lays out a viable scenario for keeping the African-American and youth voters loyal to the Democratic Party should Hillary win, I remain convinced that she should concede now.  


by global yokel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:11:22 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 1)

If the Wright tapes hurt Sen. Obama as badly as many Clinton supporters feel, the party will be in deep trouble. An unelectable pledged delegate leader with a sizable and very motivated and devoted base. Hillary will have a popular vote lead under this scenario. But how many times have we heard that the rules rule?

A unity ticket won't work if he is this battered. I wouldn't be suprised to see his campaign hint at a unity ticket if he loses big in PA and is down in the polls in Indiana and NC.

Before the Wright tapes came out Barack had 4 main bases of support: young people, liberal creative class types, African-Americans, and Independents (a little Republican support where applicable).

His speech on race was meant to shore up 3/4 of his base. This is why many of the tv pundit class (upper class, educated, socially liberal, and the new wave of AA pundits) seems much more swayed by the speech than people I talk to on the ground.

Ironically, the independent voters, who he really didn't target in his speech, are the most fickle and least loyal part of his support. I believe the groups he reached out for were the least likely to leave him over this matter. His problem is that in order to reach out to those who would be most offended, he would need to denounce Rev. Wright.

As for the numbers, they look right on to me. People forget that Hillary has won the big state closed primaries by this type of margin. I would bet this is actually close to her rate of support within the Democratic party. But in this new environment ... it's not a question if he's been hurt, but how badly and is it recoverable.


by kevko24 on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 07:06:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 1)

i love it how the Obamatons are reassuring themselves by saying "the election is over, obama has won".  HAHA   We've got 10 more primaries and i bet Obama does not win a single one.  He is tanking after 1 week of bad press.  The guy cannot withstand the onslaught of a general election.  All Hillary has to do is close the gap a little more in pledged delegates and the supers will send her over the top.  And don't underestimate the clintons in achieving a lead in the popular vote.  Never count Bill and Hill out.  You do so at your own risk.  


by karajan72 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:14:44 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 0)

karajan,

I've got bad news for ya.  This is a race for delegates.  The notion that the contest should be decided on the basis of the popular vote is an invention of the Clinton campaign.  Take a look back at the blogs and the news headlines-- nobody was talking about the significance of the popular vote until Hillary fell desperately behind in the pledged delegate count and the number of states won.  Then it got worse when some of HRC's superdelegates switched over to Obama, and a whole bunch more previously uncommitted SD's came out for him as well.  That's when we started hearing talk of the "popular vote."  It's nothing more than a clever contrivance of the Clinton campaign.  But I'll give them one thing-- they were successful in getting the media to buy into it.


by global yokel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:22:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 0)

global yokel,

I've got bad news for you, there aren't enough pledged delegates left for Obama to win. He needs 606 but there are only 566 available in the remaining contest, and he looks likely to lose the majority of those.

This is a race for delegates, and the candidate with the best case in the general election is the one who will convince the most delegates. This notion that the contest should be decided by a plurality using pledged delegates is an invention of the Obama campaign. Take a look back at the news headlines and blogs before Super Tuesday, everyone assumed the winner would be the winner of the popular vote. The only person making the case for persuading the most delegates was our own Jerome Armstrong. But I'll give Obama one thing, he's got drudgico to buy it.


by souvarine on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:52:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you really think he's going to (none / 0)

Hold all those Caucus delegates as they go to the next level Delegate Selection caucuses?


by katiebird on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama won't win another primary (none / 0)

These Obamatons seem to think the supers will give Obama the nomination even if he goes April - June without winning a single primary.  Which is quite possible.  3 months and no wins???  Do you realize how bad that will be perceived?  This thing ain't over people.  It ain't over until June at least.


by karajan72 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:17:56 PM EST

Re: Obama won't win another primary (none / 0)

Dream on.  

Obama seems to be the biracial incarnation of Bill Clinton because he takes adversities and uses them to his advantage (that's why Bill hates him so much).  After his speech Tuesday, Obama's numbers stopped dropping.  In fact, Gallop's daily poll has him climbing back even with Clinton.

In election time, four weeks is a long time to build your poll numbers back up.  

Obama will win another primary!  Probably non PA because the Clintons have a strong base there.  But he will win again.


by happycozy on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 11:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

If Hillary wins Pennsylvania by 300,000 votes, it will FREEZE the super delegates.  That means obama is sinking and the supers are not going to vote for a fading candidate.  Hillary is rising and is currently the democrats' choice for president.


by karajan72 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:26:06 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

Stupid labels.

How about Americans that will never vote for God damn America?


by gotalife on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:31:12 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 0)

Neither Obama nor Clinton can get enough delegates to secure the nomination.  So this election is NOT over.  I don't know what you obamatons are smoking.  The supers will pick the winner and obama obviously wants them to pick the leader in pledged delegates..even if that leader has a collapsing campaign and no chance to win in November.  It won't happen.


by karajan72 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:34:11 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 0)

Dear Lord people, didn't you get the memo. THIS RACE IS OVER.

Obama has won.

Deal with it.


by sam2300 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:35:16 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 1)

If Hillary win's PA, North carolina and Indiana and most of the remaining primaries.  Will Obama steal the nomination from Hillary by denying revotes in Michigan and Florida?   Obama will have stolen the nomination by disenfranchising MI and FL.  


by karajan72 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:38:24 PM EST

Wow. (none / 0)

That really is terrific work. My hat is definitely off.

I'd say you've made a convincing case that the over/under in PA is Clinton +14 without taking the Wright flap into consideration.

Is that a fair statement?


by Ddeele on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 06:55:30 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (2.00 / 2)

This is a thoughtful and interesting analysis.

That said, it's of primarily academic interest. Unless Obama simply disintegrates in the wake of the Wright controversy, which seems very unlikely (and in which case the results of individual primaries won't matter anyway), the race for pledged delegates is effectively over. You have all seen the numbers. Clinton cannot catch Obama or come close in pledged delegates or in popular vote (again, barring a total collapse). The only way she wins is by persuading the superdelegates to overrule the choice of the voters. Again, this is well-known to everyone on this site.

The point some of the Clinton supporters seem to be missing is that, if Clinton succeeds in convincing the party leadership to choose her despite Obama's overall victory in the primary process, the backlash from Obama's core constituencies, especially African-Americans, will be overwhelming. Have you all considered what it would mean for the Democratic nominee if there is a large reduction in African-American turnout in November, combined with an unusually high percentage of African-Americans voting Republican, combined with lower-than-average turnout among young voters -- all  eventualities that are virtually certain if Obama's supporters perceive the nomination as having been stolen from him? Given Clinton's high negatives, and the fact that her presence at the top of the ticket will inevitably boost Republican turnout, she is absolutely guaranteed to lose under these circumstances.

Clinton could only win in November with a united and enthusiastic Party and high turnout from core Democratic constituencies. However, this is now impossible if she is the nominee. Clinton's only viable route to the nomination will have the effect of dis-uniting the party, crushing the enthusiasm of many activists, and deeply depressing turnout. Thus, her electability argument to superdelegates is perfectly self-defeating. She would be asking the superdelegates to take an action, on the grounds of her allegedly superior electabilty, that will, in and of itself, render her unelectable.

My only objection to this detailed analysis of voting groups and the Pennsylvania Primary is that it implies that the Pennsylvania Primary still matters. It doesn't. Clinton cannot win the nomination.


by left unsaid on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:06:14 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

Are there any numbers pulled together on the impact of losing the Latina vote in the GE? I am very curious, there was a lot of talk about how important this group of voters is as they are now the largest minority in the US. It seems likely that if HRC is not the nominee they will go to McCain. I am wondering what the impact of that will be in the GE..If Dems in the GE lose the Senior voters and the Latina voters how does that balance out against the young voters and the AA voters?
Thank you...

ginaswo
by ginaswo on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:47:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

sorry left one thing out :0)

I think we need to reconsider one other statement there
the AA voters will NOT vote GOP in the GE, they may have depressed turnout but they won't vote GOP..


ginaswo
by ginaswo on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 07:49:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Am I the only one disturbed... (2.00 / 1)

by the fact this diary cites Rendell's 'whites won't vote for a black candidate' as worthy of inclusion.

When did democrats become mere manipulators of prejudice, salami slicing one group against the other to offend 49 per cent and pander to the prejudices of 51 per cent?

Ooops. Oh. Of course. The 1990s

And now that Bill Richardson has endorsed Obama, this last remaining vestige of hope (apart from Rendell's racist vote), the 'only Hillary can appeal to Latinos' looks shot to pieces too.

Good luck with getting a few more delegates by appealing to american's worse natures. It won't work  


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 09:56:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are a liar (none / 0)

Renedell said that some whites won't vote for a black candidate.

I would bet you anything that Hillary wins PA Hispanics. Your 'only Hillary can appeal to Latinos' is a similar strawman quote you made up. Clearly, Obama has been getting some support among Hispanics, but just a minority.


by techfidel on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 09:05:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

To imply that Hillary is trying to steal the nomination is more of the same devisive rhetoric one usually hears from Obama supporters when faced with the role of super delegates vs. will of the people and is hyped by the media. I can only conclude this came from an independent. The role of the super delegates is to select the best candidate for the general against the opposing party. The numbers are much closer than you will admit. Most of Obama's wins have been in caucses. His obstruction to re-votes appears devisive and with his current Mich. rules argument, contradictory to the principals of his campaign. The super delegates will take alot of factors into account, not just the numbers. The super delegates will choose the candidate they believe most likely to beat the republicans. AA voters are a part of the democratic base and Obama has not appealed to much of the rest of the base. The youth vote has been notoriously unreliable come november in numbers as compared to interest expressed in primaries. If a solution to Fl. and Mich. is'nt found it wll profoundly alienate the democratic base who see this as inherently stupid and suicidal mismanagement of the party. Obama's supporters don't want to see that to alot of democratic voters, his resistance to a re-vote makes him appear to be the one who wants to steal an election by cutting out Fl. and Mich.
He appears to be a devider and a hypocrite. She a champion for votes.The rules don't matter anymore, or who was right. What matters is cutting out these two states. To alot of democrats he just looks petty and unfair, the party elders seen as incompetent and the whole thing stupid.
workingclass artist
by workingclass artist on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 04:05:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

Hey Jerome,

After this lengthy, exhaustive technical analysis, does 'techfidel' get to join us Obamites in the "math club?"


by global yokel on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 08:25:07 PM EST

Do you think she'll stay in until Pennsylvania? (none / 0)

I'm not sure she'll stay in the race.


by TL on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 10:40:07 PM EST

Nice Spatial stats! (none / 0)

I will forgive the Hoosier bashing--surely not a label any buckeye would ascribe and not one many Hoosiers would proscribe on our neighbors.

I think this is a good cut at the data (even though I imagine you are using census data and it it likely somewhat outdated--particularly if you think about the changes in the economy in Ohio during the period.) Not clear on how that might map on to your demographic categories. Still, it is a good cut at the available data.

One significant problem though (and the problem with Ed Rendell's comment more generally)--you are assuming evidence of symbolic racism on vote choice alone. Even Sears doesn't do that and his threshhold is certainly up for wide debate. I wonder if you might consider using some of the public opinion data from the Annenberg Electoral survey (they should have enough respondents by county) to get some public opinion measures on affirmative action, etc. as some indicator of the political ideology of the county. This might add needed evidence for your argument.

Also, as we have seen pretty regularly in the discussion of the campaigns, there is a mobilization question that should be considered in such an analysis. You could consider something like average travel time to the polls or even jut the number of polls in a county as an indicator of how difficult it might be to mobilize (CPS). Mobilizing AAs is old hat for Dems, but mobilizing in rural area should be more difficult. To that end, controlling for polls might give you some indicator of the differential work one needs to put into each vote.


by hctb on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 06:05:56 AM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

Very interesting and cogent analysis

I'm not sure, how the Philly burbs (bucks, montgomery, chester and delaware counties) will go but the Main Line is probably Hillary Territory

The problem as I see it for Obama will be to get new Dems registered (the deadline is Monday)and to the College Communities with large numbers of young voters.


by kmwray on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 06:20:00 AM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

That was in depth and I tend to agree. Went to grad school at Penn, so a little familiar with the state. Shares alot in common with Ohio but more ethnically varied. Large Catholic population, and I wonder if Richardson's recent endorsement of Obama is designed to split the Catholic vote. This becomes relevant in states with large Catholic populations though only in the general should Obama get the nod. Lived in Indiana for a while too and it will be interesting to see which way she leans, towards Ilinois or Ohio? Am native Texan, and saw his strategy of focus on large
urban cities hurt him here. May have seemed smart, but ignoring most of the state alienated him from voters and he did not seem to care much about those outside the big cities. Voters saw a contradiction in the uniter candidate who mostly campaigned in Houston,DFW area, Austin and San Antonio. Hillary or her surrogates were literally everywhere all over the state. This reminded voters of how Bill ran and allowed them to see a candidate who seemed to care about them. Obama's strategy
could hurt him in Pennsylvania for the same reasons. I think the burbs will go Hillary, as will the farmers. If she does win these states her argument becomes that much stronger. There are no caucuses in november. Obama's reaction to re-votes in Fl. and Mich. will effect him in these states, it's pissin off alot of voters outside Obama land and is seen as unfair.
workingclass artist
by workingclass artist on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 03:25:28 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

Although I chuckled myself at the sight of Hillary-Billies and Ed Necks, I think the implication that racism is the key component here is a tad off the mark.  (Hillbilly is also  a divisive word, after all)

Lower income whites are far more concerned about the economy and health care than anything else.  They are not voting for Hillary because they would never vote for a black man, they are voting for her because they know her and feel she can deliver the programs or jobs they so urgently need.

The problem Obama has among less educated voters (same groups again) is not that they hate him, but that they don't know him and that as far as they're concerned they'd prefer to go for the devil they know.

Those with more financial security can be more dispassionate about the benefits of an Obama presidency.

Don't let this primary become a litmus test for Democrats along the issue of race.  To do so is destructive of the deeper coalitions that have been built up in the party over the years and it will come back to haunt us.  (Maybe sooner than we realise given all this talk of a civil war should the convention resort to a free ballot in the event of a deadlock.)

Visit my diary on the use of race-baiting in this primary, makes suggestions and notes as I'm hoping to revise it next week.


by PadraigPearse on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 04:56:31 PM EST

Economy (none / 0)

Surely many lower income whites prefer Hillary for her economic policies (they went for Bill Clinton over Bush in many of these same counties). But when you see them going for Hillary at the 80% level, when she and Obama aren't really all that different, there is more going on.


by techfidel on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 03:33:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

Excellent analysis!
I live in NW Pa and have a daughter in college in Pittsburgh.
From the ground here in Pa- Obama can forget it here- he might as well move on.
The college students for Hillary are extremely active and the groundswell for Hillary is amazing!
Some of the collge students were very offended by Obama's Dem for a Day ads that ran on St. Patty's day. The students had planned a meet and rally with Hillary for 3/16 and then the St. Patty's day parade 3/17. The Obama campaign bought air-time advising folks to make sure they got into the democratic party by 3/24 and bought the slot right before the students tv time of the parade. Smart kids- they thought that was illegal.

The race is not over, no matter how hysterically the Obama campaign wants to screech to the contrary.
Neither candidate can win enough pledged delegates. Obama is not that far ahead given the number of states left to vote.
The clamoring for Hillary to drop out is a sure sign that they know their candidate is in trouble.

I will ignore all the screeching just as I would ignore somebody else's child having a hissy fit. (My own child would be hauled up by the scruff of his neck and given a time out until he learned not to be a spoil sport cry baby.)


by ProudMilitaryMom on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 05:10:48 PM EST

Re: Pennsylvania 6-54321 (none / 0)

What a magnificent job, which persuaded Michael Barone, and brought the effort to this Pubbie's attention. I also looked at the spreadsheet, and think it reasonable, with one exception. Yes, Allegheny County is 13% black, while Lucas in Ohio is 18% black, but Allegheny is more white collar than Lucas I think these days. Lucas is characterized Obamacrat, and Allegheny proletariat, but I think both will vote about the same in percentages between the two candidates. Clinton carried Lucas by 5%, and I suspect that will be the same in Allegheny (10% margin max), rather than the proletariat 60% (20% margin).  That is the only "error" that I can find in the analysis.


by Torie on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 06:04:15 PM EST


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