MyDD :: Iraq vote,

Iraq vote,

by rocky, Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:24:50 PM EST

People appear to have developed a collective amnesia about the AUMF vote. Not only have they forgotten about the situation in the country at the time but have also forgotten that they supported a candidate four years ago who not only voted for the AUMF but was also insisting that "had he known then what he knew now" (2002 and 2004) he still would have voted the same way. Remember Kerry sent out James Rubin to peddle this line.(Contrast that with Hillary's response to Pumpkin head Russert at the time" Tim had we known then what we know now there would have been no vote) The irony is that not only did we enthusiastically support Kerry we now want to put weight on his judgment re Obama.
Let us just revisit 2002-at that time the conventional wisdom in Washington was that Saddam had WMDs. This could have been debunked by our friend Rockefeller and company of the intelligence committee by holding public hearings on the issue and inviting experts(Remember Daschle was the majority leader at the time.)There was no need for Graham to make a big speech all he had to do was what is expected in a democracy- hold hearings where everyone would have learnt what the UN knew - that based upon the interviews of the Hussein son in laws , Iraqis had destroyed their weapons stockpile . The UNMOVIC was unable to certify this because the level of proof was not high enough.
In 2002 a large majority of the US citizenry was demanding metaphysical certitude that Iraq had no WMDS which required intrusive inspections. Under the circumstances it was politically untenable for a senator from New York to go against the President without public proof of absence of WMDS. A reading of the NIE in private would not have provided her constituents that comfort( incidentally it did not help Rockefeller who wants us to trust his judgment now). At the time the White House arranged special meetings between Condoleeza Rice ( Again this was before she became known as Kind of lies a lot Rice) and Clinton. As Biden has said the President also undertook to come back to the senate for a second vote.
For a former first lady it was inconceivable that a US president would act the way Bush did. If you guys read her speech given at the time of the vote, it is clear that she thought that she was creating a situation for the inspectors to get in . Dont take my word for it . Read Hans Blix.
Dont take any one's word about the Levin amendment- read the motion. It clearly cedes US authority to the UN.
Clinton is to be faulted for trusting that the a President would act in such a reckless manner.Nothing more

Tags: amnesia, AUMF, Move on (all tags)

Permalink :: 22 Comments :: Post a Comment

Re: Iraq vote, (none / 0)

I don't think congress should have given Bush authority to go to war. But then on top of that some in congress even gave Bush authority to ignore the UN by opposing the Levin Amendment. No one who authorized the use of war or opposed the Levin Amendment deserves to be president, but anyone who did both is not qualified for public office of any kind.

by countmein on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:41:56 PM EST

Re: Iraq vote, (2.00 / 1)

So you voted for Bush in 2004!!!

by rocky on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:48:45 PM EST
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Re: Iraq vote, (none / 0)

No, but I supported Hillary in 2000. I wanted her in the senate because I assumed she was super smart and had 8 years of White House experience and I assumed she had a brilliant former president giving her great advice at every turn. She didn't live up to my expectations.

by countmein on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:01:45 PM EST
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Re: It's Bush's War -- and Hillary (none / 0)

She was voting for the authorization of preemptive war whether she was intelligent enough to realize it or not. But by opposing the Levin Amendment Bush even had orders from congress to overrule the United Nations if he saw fit. Bush was very inexperienced president so congress should have demanded that the U.N. have some input instead of being totally disenfranchised. And why did Hillary think Iraq had WMDs after being married to a president for 8 years and being so actively involved? She spent more time in the White House then Bush and Rice combined. She should have been a lot smarter especially since as the most influential Democrat in the senate her votes signaled bi-partisan support and as the senator from New York (the state that had been attacked) her opinion was especially important.

by countmein on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:53:57 PM EST

Re: It's Bush's War -- and Hillary (2.00 / 3)

Wait, come again? Was American, British, Russian and Israeli intelligence all saying the same thing? That Hussein did have WMD? Considering that the four largest intelligence agencies in the world all thought the same thing, it seems like pretty hard proof.

Most influential Democrat in the Senate? The junior Senator from New York? Wouldn't the most influential be the minority leader, Senator Tom Daschle of South Dakota? And, for the record, he voted for it.

Oh, and last I checked, it was Bush Sr. that ordered Desert Storm, not Bill Clinton. How would the Clintons have significant knowledge of WMD in Iraq when we weren't really concerned about it at the time?

Furthermore, while we're on the subject, both Clinton and the other Senator from NY - Schumer - both voted for it.

by ejintx on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:11:49 PM EST
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Re: It's Bush's War -- and Hillary (none / 0)

Iraq war apologists? On MyDD?

If you had said this would happen two years ago, I'd be incredulous. Now it's just boring.

by amiches on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:19:43 PM EST
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Re: It's Bush's War -- and Hillary (2.00 / 1)

Arrogance and revisionists are nothing new either.

by ejintx on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:23:04 PM EST
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Re: It's Bush's War -- and Hillary (2.00 / 1)

Tell me, did you vote for John Kerry in 2004? Was this an issue to you at the time? When did it become an issue to you?

You know, Ron Paul never voted for the war or funding. I guess he has superior judgment to all of us too.

by ejintx on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:25:29 PM EST
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Re: It's Bush's War -- and Hillary (none / 0)

I did in the general (he was clearly better than Bush), but not in the primaries, where I chose Howard Dean, another person that was right about the Iraq war.

And yes, Ron Paul was also right about the Iraq war. You're coming along very nicely. Unfortunately, Ron Paul is crazy as shit in just about every other regard. So that's why he didn't earn my vote in the primaries.

by amiches on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:39:50 PM EST
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Re: It's Bush's War -- and Hillary (none / 0)

Please don't lump me in with "all of us." I was out protesting while Hillary was voting to get us into this nightmare.

She should have known better. I think it was nothing but a political compromise at the cost of countless lives and dollars. Something I will never forgive until she actually apologizes.

by PhilFR on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 12:13:24 AM EST
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Re: It's Bush's War -- and Hillary (none / 0)

I would argue that Hillary had a lot more influence than Tom Daschle because she was the partner of the most popular president of the 20th century. The Clintons were Gods in the Democratic party and she was widely believed to be president in either 2004 or 2008. And I think she would have been even more influential in that situation because if I had been in the senate at the time I would have felt very tempted to vote the way the senators from New York voted just out of respect since it was New York that was attacked. And I would have expected Bill Clinton to have significant knowledge of WMDs in Iraq because there were sanctions at bombings against Iraq all through the 1990s, and the Iraq Liberation Act during Clinton's presidency.

by countmein on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:30:34 PM EST
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Re: Iraq vote, (2.00 / 3)

It is not her exclusive failure- the senate failed, our last nominee failed and now we want to hang it all on her. We all supported Kerry and now we demand purity. Daschle could have avoided the whole fiasco by not holding a vote. How could someone that close to the white house decision making process believe that a president would be so mendacious. Most of the time politicians believe that other politicians are just as honorable. At any rate read her speech and then complain.

by rocky on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:03:15 PM EST

Re: Iraq vote, (none / 0)

Yes but she was the senator from New York (the place that had been attacked) and she was the most influential Democrat (i.e. bipartisan support and legitimacy) so I think the senate, and she was married to a president and had 8 years of recent white house experience (far more than Bush and Rice at the time)and she was viewed as a future president and she was viewed as super-smart so a lot of people in the country, the senate, and the administration were looking to see how she voted on the war and the Levin Amendment.

by countmein on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:18:48 PM EST
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Re: Iraq vote, (2.00 / 1)

I agree, the entire Senate failed and I'm ready to hold them accountable for that. Faced with the choice between someone who didn't fail (Dean) and someone who did fail (Kerry) in '04, I chose Dean. I face a similar choice now, and guess who I'm going with!

by amiches on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:21:01 PM EST
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Re: Iraq vote, (2.00 / 1)

Hundreds of thousands of us took to the streets to try to avert this war because it was apparent from the rationale the administration was peddling that Iraq did not pose an imminent threat to the U.S. All the administration cited was 10-year-old intel and self serving statements from Ahmed Chalabi. 27 U.S. Senators did the right thing and voted to oppose war. Hillary chose the politically expedient route. She did the wrong thing and to this day she has not come clean about it.

"As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where-where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border."

by fugazi on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:22:58 PM EST

Re: Iraq vote, (2.00 / 1)

Exactly. And, the thing is, I understand why she got caught in the Bush trap. We Democrats were running scared then, and only now are we getting our collective chutzpah back. Some chose to be brave, others did not. Of those who were not brave, I have forgiven those who unequivocally admitted that they were wrong.

If Hillary would a) run her campaign like a progressive and b) admit that she was WRONG on Iraq, I'd probably be a Hillary supporter right now. No joke. But she can't do those two things and so I'm going to go with the guy who can.

by amiches on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:45:53 PM EST
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Re: Iraq vote, (2.00 / 1)

Anyone who thinks Hillary could have averted the War in 2002 is either delusional or was not paying attention then. Daschle was the majority leader at that time not the minority leader. Did Amiche vote for Kerry or not? Why the demand for such purity from Clinton? No matter what the level of experience both Bush and Rice held positions of great trust given to them by the American people. They betrayed our trust and lied to the Senate and the Country.

by rocky on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:40:09 PM EST

Re: Iraq vote, (2.00 / 1)

I answered your question above. It's all about who we have a choice between. A choice between Hillary and McCain, she's getting my vote. But if I have a choice between someone who was right about Iraq, a conflict in which I've seen close friends injured, and someone who was wrong, I'm going to pick the one who was right.

by amiches on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:47:52 PM EST
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Re: Iraq vote, (none / 0)

Did Bush and Rice lie or were they misinformed? Hillary gave a speech where she said there were links between Sadam Hussein and Al Queda. I don't think she lied, I think she was misinformed. Why are you holding Rice to a higher standard? Hillary was the one with 8 years of recent white house experience at the time and married to a recent president. Also, Rice was not in a position to authorize the use of war and Rice was not in a position to oppose the Levin Amendment, thus authorizing Bush to ignore and overrule the United Nations. Voting to authorize the war was an enormous mistake, voting to block diplomacy by opposing the Levin Amendment was also a huge mistake, but doing both demonstrates an alarming failure of judgment. Ultimately it's congress that's in charge. The president works for congress and they have the power to impeach him, and their job is to set limits on the president's powers so he doesn't abuse that power.

by countmein on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 12:18:36 AM EST
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Re: Iraq vote, (2.00 / 2)

Obama never voted against the war.

He spoke against it, but he said in 2004 that he might have voted for it if he was a Senator in 2002.

If he had been a Senator and voted against the war in 2002 he would have been subject to the same attacks and marginalization that the few who did have suffered, and he would not be a candidate for president now.

Nothing in his record since becoming a Senator suggests he would have had the political courage to stand up against the war in 2002 if he had been in the Senate.

Enough. Obama never voted against the war in the Senate. That's a fact.

by MediaFreeze on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 12:08:28 AM EST

Re: Iraq vote, (none / 0)

True enough, and that's part of the reason he wasn't my first or second choice. But when I compare that to HRC, who was complicit in getting us into this fiasco, and who has STILL never owned up to it in the way that Edwards did... well, I have a hard time forgiving that.

by PhilFR on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 12:19:36 AM EST
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Re: Iraq vote, (none / 0)

Nothing in Obama's record indicates he would show such a colossal lack of judgment. Arguing that Obama would have voted for war had he been in the senate makes as much sense as arguing Gore would have supported war had he been president.

by countmein on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 12:25:25 AM EST
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