PA polls

Still a month away, but two new polls out of PA today, both showing a big Clinton bounce.

Quinnipiac:
Clinton     53 (49)
Obama       41 (43)
PPP:
Clinton     56
Obama       30
The Quinnipiac poll was over a period from the 10th to the 16th, while the PPP poll is from the 15th to 16th:
“The big story in the Presidential race over the last week has been the comments of Barack Obama’s pastor about America,” said Dean Debnam, President of Public Policy Polling. “It appears this issue has hurt him a good deal with likely primary voters in Pennsylvania.”

Clinton even appears to be making in roads among black voters in the state. She trails just 63-27 with that group, which Obama has tended to get over 80% of the vote from in key primary states so far. She has a 40 point lead, 63-23, with white voters.

This poll shows the largest deficit Obama has faced in Pennsylvania so far in 2008.

“There is plenty of time for Obama to make a recovery in Pennsylvania,” said Debnam. “But he’s definitely a victim of the 24 hour news cycle right now. He needs to get the spotlight turned back on Clinton quick.” Clinton also led across all age groups in the poll, with the race tight among 18-45 year olds but Clinton showing a significant advantage with voters over the age of 45.

The Quinnipiac poll also shows a wide lead among white voters for Clinton, 61 to 33 percent.

I took a look at the Obama spreadsheet, and they projected a loss by a a narrow 52-47 margin in Pennsylvania, and only a deficit of 8 delegates to Clinton.

On this: "He needs to get the spotlight turned back on Clinton quick." It's true. Obama battling Republicans, which is what's been going on the past week, is his worst position to be in right now. Over what do you think he'll try to do this? I've said forever that attacking the Clinton's over taxes has no traction among Democrats-- that's such a dry emotionless attack line. Maybe on 'judgment' again?



Display:


Re: PA polls (1.40 / 5)

Did he project Rev . Wright .

The speech he made today will help a little at the margins at best.

What I have heard all day was how he threw his white grandmother under the bus.

That was unnecessary.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 05:56:59 PM EST

Re: PA polls (2.00 / 0)

Good point!


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:01:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (2.00 / 1)

Not really!


by Zorro the Greek on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:10:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Anne Frank. How unfortunate that your devisive comments would be made in the name of the young women who represents the 180 degree opposite spirit.
by xtrarich on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 10:37:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

You know, I didn't even think about that.

Two honest questions:

1) Could a reasonable impartial viewer conclude that Barack's grandmother is a bigot?

2) Could a reasonable impartial viewer conclude that Barack considers Wright to hold a place in his heart equivalent to that of his grandmother?

3) Is it good form to make public family "dirty laundry" in this way?


by blueflorida on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:03:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Okay, I guess that would be three questions. My editor is out sick today.


by blueflorida on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:04:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (2.00 / 2)

LOL. I was about to ask you which two were the honest ones. ;-)


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:00:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Yes, yes and no.

And also, yes, Barack has issues with white women.  I do not know why.  But he does.


by Montague on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:27:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Some white women are starting to raise eyebrows at Obama...and I think I could write you a five-page essay about why.


by zyx on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (2.00 / 2)

Regarding question #2, I do think that is a reasonable assumption to make. He said he could no sooner disown Wright than he could disown his own grandmother. In essence, their respective bigotry was analogous. The thing is, you can't choose your grandmother, but you do choose your church and your pastor. And you reiterate that choice by continuing those relationships for 20 years. And the latter relationship reflects on his judgment. You know, the judgment that is supposed to convince us to vote for him.


Bitch is the New Black
by Iphie on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:01:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (2.00 / 1)

Talking about HIS family made the whole thing more real.  This was not dirty laundry, this is the messy reality of our history and our lives, and Obama was able to talk about it in its complexity.  I don't know if Obama opponents are able to treat it with the sophistication it deserves.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 08:01:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

It truly is amazing that some people around here can twist a speech to say something that it doesn't.  I hope that this irrationality fades after November and does not indicate a permanent disability.


by rfahey22 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:33:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

   ROFL, is that what you heard? And where did you hear that? What I heard was a presidential candidate who put himself out there in a more thoughtful and forthright manner than I have ever heard any politician before him. No disrespect to anyone's prefered candidate. When Hillary Clinton comes up with a vision of the American Experiment as comprehensive and positive (and, yes, as painfully personal), as Sen. Obama has, she will have, if not my vote, at least my respectful attention. Until then, I'm in the tank for Sen. Barack Obama.


by Kordo on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:47:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Outstanding.  You have truly outdone yourself here with this latest comment.


by Brillobreaks on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:50:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (2.00 / 3)

I am a middle aged white woman and this is absolute bs. Obama didn't throw anyone under the bus.  Instead, he explained that Americans have all sorts of views within them, not all good and not all negative.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 08:00:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

I know you are just stating the obvious, but thank you nonetheless.


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 08:16:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

You've got to be kidding me.  He defended Ferraro, something Hillary never did.  The one time he mentioned her, he dismissed the idea that she was racist.

Hillary throws her under the bus (with Geraldine's help), and Obama pulls her out from under it.


by APoxOnBoth on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 09:54:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Right, the guy who ran over Ferraro with the bus now wants credit for pulling her out. Sorry, too much like the proverbial guy who kills his parents and then pleads for clemency because he is an orphan.


by souvarine on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 10:40:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Universal, you have no shame.

Obama made an excellent point.  In fact, I know someone very similar to his Grandmother; my father-in-law.

My fil admitted that he will never vote for a black man, yet he has 2 black grandchildren.  My fil is very anti-government, but personally he is very giving.

To state these things is the truth, not throwing under the bus.


by Timetheos on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:04:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice Numbers (2.00 / 1)

Good numbers for Clinton, but I need to saying something:

The Pennsylvania primary is April 22, 2008.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 05:57:11 PM EST

Re: PA polls (2.00 / 1)

Attacking on Clinton's tax returns isn't silly if he makes it part of a larger point on transparency. And he should hit the lobbyist angle hard. In fact, these are probably his best lines of attack if he wants to refrain from getting his hands too dirty.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 05:57:45 PM EST

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Except that Obama's campaign has been "hitting on" those issues for some time...it's not the kind of thing that's going to shift attention from something inflammatory like the Wright videos.


by Alice in Florida on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 08:29:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (2.00 / 1)

Obama certainly can't attack Hillary on lobbyists since he's just as guilty.
However, on the campaign trail he implies he's never taken donations from Washington lobbyists!

Edwards always gave him a big break on that - and never mentioned Obama only switched in 2007.

Another flip flop that began in 2007 - like his positions on the war and his minister.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 05:59:56 PM EST

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

What evidence do you have to the contrary?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 08:02:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (2.00 / 1)

Wasn't she up by 20 recently? How is this a Hillary surge?


If you are not voting Obama, please let me know so I can replace your sorry ass with another new voter.
by Darknesse on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:00:20 PM EST

Re: PA polls (2.00 / 2)

It was about 18 a month ago, but that had come down to single digits the past week.  The 18 was an unrealistic high end at that point in time.

That said, for HRC to really make a case, and I am a HRC supporter, she needs a blowout in Pennsylvania.  at least 10 points, if not more.

I noted in a couple threads, but I fear the fight is just beginning, as I tend to think that the Florida/Michigan issue will lead to Clinton supporters digging in.  Whereas, had some sort of accord been reached, and Obama was leading after Puerto Rico, then I think the chances were greater of this not going to convention.


by toonsterwu on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:03:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

A 10 point win in PA is not a "blowout" when you consider that she needs to win over 62% of all remaining elected delegates just to pull even with Obama.  

If you are referring to some sort of superdelegate squeeze play that will result in Hillary snatching victory from the jaws of defeat, may I remind you that it looks like there will be no revotes in FL or MI to bail her out.

If Hillary's last name were not Clinton, her campaign would have been left for dead by the mainstream media weeks ago.


by PatriotAct1984 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:01:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Her Last name is Clinton.

I would say if BHO was not a black man, he would not have got 90% of the black vote and would not be even standing for president. How is that


by indus on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:29:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

And how much of the female vote would Hillary have if she were a man?


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:38:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Wow,

So as a black man, Obama wouldn't be running for president?

I guess you're right.  We've has so many black presidents already.


by PatriotAct1984 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:48:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

In Obama's case, he's where he is because he's black. Colin Powell, on the other hand, could have won the Presidency in 2000 solely on his merits had he chosen to run.

It's like only Nixon could go to China.

Unless they had a candidate of the stature of a Colin Powell prior to the Iraq debacle, there was always the huge risk that a black candidate would look like a Dem affirmative action program.

The same applies to a female candidate. And if Hillary weren't that candidate, I can assure you any other female Dem candidate would have crashed and burned by NH.

That, more than anything, is why I see the vitriol on both sides coming hot and heavy, because both sides sense if they end up on the short stick, we won't likely see another Dem black or female candidate for President in our lifetimes as a result.


by SoCalHillMan on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:12:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

---
That, more than anything, is why I see the vitriol on both sides coming hot and heavy,
---
Including yourself.

I firmly believe Obama is where he is at because of his intelligence, hard-work, and gifted speaking ability.


by Timetheos on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:07:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

A better speaker, perhaps, I might grant you, but certainly not more qualified than a John Edwards, Bill Richardson, Chris Dodd and a Joe Biden, all of whose resumes should have been more strongly considered before his by the voters.

If Obama were a female candidate, he'd have never gotten this far. Ask Elizabeth Dole for a second opinion on that one.


by SoCalHillMan on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 11:04:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

And back we go to my original point.

If Hillary were not the wife of an American president, she would have never gotten this far.

Glad you finally agree.


by PatriotAct1984 on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 06:20:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (2.00 / 3)

Maybe people will watch his Philadelphia speech today.  Maybe they'll see for themselves that the pygmy politics of play-acting can be swapped for an adult discussion.

Maybe.

Probably not, but maybe.

I know, I know, Reverend Wright, Reverend Wright, Reverend Wright.  Bad man, terrible man, horrible man.

Geraldine Ferraro, good woman, misunderstood woman, fine lady.

Hillary good.  Barack bad.  Over and over and over.

But maybe enough people are simply tired of the charade.

One can hope.


by ClementeR on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:04:09 PM EST

Re: PA polls (2.00 / 2)

I don't think that is accurate:
More accurate of a charade is:
Hillary bad. Obama good.

Here's why. The media has constantly made Hillary out to be a villain and a witch, while Obama was "the one" who would bring hope. The Obama Campaign also has its own role in making it seem as if Hillary "will do anything to win."

While that might be your vision of the charade, I think most people see a different charade that has been played. After all, Hillary has been made to look like the queen of darkness for roughly a year and Reverend Wright has only been talked about for the last week or two.


by HillaryKnight08 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:10:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What if Hillary (2.00 / 1)

IS the queen of darkness?

I mean, how else do you explain insinuating that the democratic front runner isn't qualified to be CIC?

How, especially, do you explain THAT position when her husband, a virtually unknown governor from po-dunk Arkansas, managed to do a fairly decent job of it, despite lacking "experience"?

At some point it begins to smell like she's more interested in being elected than anything else....IMHO.  Which is a real drag, b/c I've spent nearly 16 years arguing that those criticisms are misplaced.  She's got me rethinking it.


In a dog eat dog world, sometimes you're the dog.
by Richard Woodcock II on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:17:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if Hillary (none / 0)

I don't think Mrs. Rice did any better of a job when she said both Clinton and Obama weren't qualified to answer the phone at 3am. Let's be honest. Obama will not be seen by anyone, if elected, to have any hold in the CIC. Of course John McCain will beat Clinton in the area as well. But don't continue in falsehoods, we know that both Hillary and McCain have had ARMY experience, Obama has not.

The media saying that Clinton had no experience when he was elected in 1991 is so false. He elected Attorney General of Arkansas in 1976. That's over TEN YEARS of experience.

BTW, before thinking Hillary as "the queen of darkness", why don't we look at the "darkness" in ourselves. As I have noticed, it's simply excepted that it's bad for Hillary to do something, even if we happen to do it ourselves.


by HillaryKnight08 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:28:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if Hillary (none / 0)

"Of course John McCain will beat Clinton in the area as well."

So, if John McCain today can't understand whether Shia Iran is training Sunni Al Queda or not, why is he going to be so tough to beat regarding CIC?

The guy who said the war in Iraq would be a relatively quick affair.  This guy has CIC credentials?

Why are we Democrats so easy to spook?

Grow some!


by ClementeR on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:34:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if Hillary (none / 0)

Sometimes, Clemente, you have to see reality, even if it favors a Republican. Yes, McCain is certainly "out of touch" with his Iraq views, but he is the only candidate to experience war first hand. You make it seem as if complimenting McCain on a true account is a mortal sin. It's not. McCain certainly needs to be complimented for his efforts, which make him more qualified in this area.

I'm sincerely sorry, but McCain has had a lot of experience with the army, Clinton has had some and Obama has had none. You can continue to deny it, but that fact will always be there.


by HillaryKnight08 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:41:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I disagree on this "experience" thing (none / 0)

Experience with what, exactly?

Bill was not an experienced military commander by any stretch of the imagination.  Hillary less so.

McCain, while having at least served, has not held a military command in 40 years and the last one ended with 7 years in a prison camp.

Being commander in chief of the military is just one aspect of being President.

This issue boils down to one of judgment:  First, recognize that the military option should always be the last option after diplomacy has failed.  Second, recognize that the military should be following orders, not making policy.  Finally, with that in mind, you must have the judgment to make the right policy decisions, followed by the leadership to translate those decisions into military action, if necessary, through the advice of your military professionals and advisers.  

But ultimately, you must lead the military.  Tell it what to do.  When to do it.  The list of great Presidents with insubstantial prior military experience is pretty long.

There's is not to reason why....


In a dog eat dog world, sometimes you're the dog.
by Richard Woodcock II on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:58:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Judgment" (none / 0)

It would be in your best interest to stay away from the "judgment" argument, for it will not be helping your candidate any longer.

It was Obama at one debate that said that he didn't plan on managing the bureaucracy and that he planned on sharing his executive duties as president with  "advisers." That does not inspire confidence that HE will be the one telling the military what to do.


by HillaryKnight08 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:08:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My best interests? How do you know what MY best (none / 0)

interests are?

Don't pretend like Hillary will be sitting there, Col. Khadaffi-like, in military regalia, spewing forth military decisions without benefit of the joint chiefs of staff or her NSA.  We've had enough of "deciders."

If, however, one of those advisers puts forth a stupid idea, like invading Iran to open a third front in the war on terror, I'll put my money on Obama to: a) recognize that as a mistake; and b) have the guts, voice and leadership to say "no."

Hillary, IMHO, has proven herself inept at articulating a coherent military strategy or vision, mostly, it seems, due to her inability to counter the "supporting the troops" criticism that the right used every single time it wanted to get its way.  She was no good at stopping them at the time, what makes you think she will be any more adept as President?


In a dog eat dog world, sometimes you're the dog.
by Richard Woodcock II on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:39:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Judgment" (none / 0)

Well....

Cheney will be available and Hagel and Crazy Joe.

That, 'I don't know shit about A but my advisers will...' scam
worked out so well last time.

And yeah, Hagel and Crazy Joe yellin' in the background 'Kill them Arabs 'for they git Irael' are real possibilities already 'trial ballooned' by Obama staffers.

The idea that Obama has any military exerience is laughable....

Until you visualize him in office eyeball to eyeball with Putin.


by Pericles on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 08:12:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Experience with the army. (none / 0)

No more experience than Clinton or Obama since McCain was not in the army.


No Way, No How, No McCain!
by GFORD on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:53:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What if Hillary (none / 0)

They're all interested in being elected. Obama is telling lie after lie because he wants to be elected. You don't run for president to not be elected. They'll all do anything to get elected, so stop using talking points from the Barack Campaign.


by deathofrock on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:33:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Brilliant ....... (none / 0)

"Obama is telling lie after lie...."

like what?  

How can you accuse me of repeating "talking points" (which nobody gave me btw) then turn around and say something so completely stupid?


In a dog eat dog world, sometimes you're the dog.
by Richard Woodcock II on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:01:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brilliant ....... (none / 0)

Obama said he was never in the pews when Wright used that kind of language and today he said he was there
he contradicted what he said Friday
ginaswo
by ginaswo on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:12:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wrong. (none / 0)

you're comparing a specific instance with a general comment.  I think he said he wasn't there for the "Goddamn America" comments, but made clear today that he was present for other sermons that could be considered controversial and made no bones about his disagreement with those views and what he characterized as the "fundamental defect" in Rev. Wright's thinking.

So if you're still looking for the lie, you're just trying to hard.  You're playing someone's game and it's unfortunate, because you risk missing out and participating in what history will remember as a very profound moment.


In a dog eat dog world, sometimes you're the dog.
by Richard Woodcock II on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:34:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrong. (none / 0)

When I look at all of his answers to "what did you know and when did you know it" -- just over the last week -- I'd say on the continuum of intentionally evasive and slippery on one end  and outright lying on the other,  I'd have to go closer to outright lying.  This is classic red alert damage control, not an uplifting speech about race.


On to the Convention Floor!
by oh puhleeze on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:13:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Like parsing the definition of sex? (none / 0)


In a dog eat dog world, sometimes you're the dog.
by Richard Woodcock II on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:23:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That was actually the question today... (none / 0)

on CNN-I think Cafferty. Question about will she do anything to win, cause civil war blah blah blah. At least they read comments from both sides and one was about how this is, like, an election and not everyone has voted and we need someone who wants and knows how to win. But, still, the whole premise of the question was banal and unfair. The media is just so pathetic.


berkshiretrueblue Commited to helping elect a Democrat as President "Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo" Ambroise Bierce
by berkshiretrueblue on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:11:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Does anyone have that link of polling companies based on accuracy?
I thought it was here today - somewhere.
Thanks!

Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:04:57 PM EST

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Today's speech will make a difference.

He will still lose PA but probably by no more than 8-10% and will more than make up the lost delegates in North Carolina and Indiana.

The key challenge is not PA but getting out of the Florida-Michigan debacle with only a small loss.

If the DNC is stupid enough to award those states to Hillary as per the original vote, the Dems will go down in flames in November as millions of Obama youth and African Americans desert the party.

MP


by markpsf on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:06:09 PM EST

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

The interesting thing to watch is the impact of Nutter in all this.

Btw, you seem to imply that an Obama candidacy is a definite win in the GE, which I find far from the truth.  In general, I think the idea that this year was a definite win for Democrats has been an overplayed narrative.  I don't think HRC is a win (although for a variety of factors, I like her chances).  

I like Obama, although I am a HRC supporter.  That said, I worry about the blue collar/rural votes, which I believe has troubled us since the late 70's/early 80's.  Can Obama sell a Democratic economic vision to that voting group?  Certainly, the addition of a good seller would boost him, but so far, he hasn't done it well enough, and even in this horrid economy, if he can't sell our economic vision, then I worry that these voters will look for other factors in the GE.


by toonsterwu on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:10:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

By the time the GE rolls around (none / 0)

this Country is going to be in saaaddddd shape.

Any candidate representing change and hope will win because we're going to need both in spades.


In a dog eat dog world, sometimes you're the dog.
by Richard Woodcock II on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:02:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls/Bus (2.00 / 1)

There is still a month.  The focus is going to change.  Today's speech should help.  He only needs to get within 10 or so  points in PA and has a month to recoup some of what he lost in this last lousy news cycle.  I think this is the nadir of his campaign and that drop is to be expected.  

"His white grandmother under the bus."  Define throwing under a bus please?

"I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother - a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe."  How is expressing a difficult truth in a loving way throwing under a bus?  


by mady on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:08:16 PM EST

Re: PA polls (2.00 / 1)

"Black anger" and "white resentments," he said, have "distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle-class squeeze: a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices and short-term greed."

Anyone ever read about Penny Pritzker, Obama's Senate and Prez finance chair?

   Superior Bank, half-owned by the wealthy Pritzker family, was shut down by the FDIC Friday after a bailout plan by the Pritzkers, who own the Hyatt Hotel chain, and their partner, New York real estate developer Alvin Dworman, fell through. The bank failed because it had lost nearly all of its more than $2 billion of assets on bad loans to high-risk borrowers, federal regulators said.

   The FDIC reopened the bank Monday as Superior Federal and is seeking a buyer and a new CEO.

   Superior's failure could cost the FDIC $500 million or more--some observers now are pegging the loss at closer to $1 billion, one of the largest bank failures ever.

On September 11, 2001, Ellen Seidman, Director of the Office of Thrift Supervision, told the Senate Banking Committee:

   Superior, which had assets of $1.8 billion as of June 30, 2001, became critically undercapitalized largely due to incorrect accounting treatment and aggressive assumptions for valuing complicated financial instruments known as residuals. "The risk from a concentration in residuals at Superior was exacerbated by a faulty accounting opinion by the institution's external auditors that caused capital to be significantly overstated, and by management and board recalcitrance in acting on regulatory recommendations, directives and orders."

http://obamasdeckofcards.blogspot.com/20 08/02/obamas-subprime-problem.html


by katmandu1 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:10:15 PM EST

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Penny Pritzkers brother is on Hillarys finance committee, you know that,right?

It is a source of amusement here in chicago that the Pritkzer clan is divided.

This dog wont hunt.


by hawkjt on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 08:35:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Personally I think his performance in Pennsylvania is all but irrelevant for the nomination. He saved his political hide from the Wright controversy today and that was really Hillary's only hope.

She can continue to make things messy and continue to hurt his general election chances, but he's got it sealed up now.


by Zorro the Greek on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:12:10 PM EST

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

You are one seriously delusional puppy at this point if you believe Obama has the nomination sown up. If anything, the SD are figuring out how to approach Hillary without it looking like a stampede for the exits.

Obama is such damaged goods at this point as a result of this Wright mess, that the best he can hope for, IF that, is VP. Those Red States he won his caucus victories can now not be counted on in the win column for him. And that's if they ever could in the first place.

Wright is in Farrahkan territory, and since Obama did not totally distance himself from the guy, his judgement has been revealed to be much worse than advertised. The youth and black vote will be overcome in the GE by the low economic white, hispanic and senior voters as a result of this debacle. The only question is whether Hillary or McCain will be the winner.


by SoCalHillMan on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:24:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

You're really, really jumping the gun. This is a big deal, but you are making TOO big a deal out of it. Whether Obama wins or loses, your comment is incorrect.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:42:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

I would take you seriously if you even bothered to explain why my comment is incorrect, but my experience with people throughout this country over my lifetime has taught me a lot about racism and sexism, and I guarantee you Obama's relationship with his pastor is no small potatoes. I can also tell you after those statements equating his grandmother with his pastor at a minimum cast him the senior vote, who'll have no problem voting for McCain over Obama if Hillary isn't the Dem candidate.

As for those saying that Hillary can't win without Obama's supporters, they're just as guilty in not thinking this through. When it comes to Presidential elections, the Seniors are a guaranteed vote. Nobody ever lost an election taking the college age crowd for granted ever since they were given the right to vote. OTOH, taking the Seniors for granted can and will cost one an election.

As for the A/A vote, while Hillary may not be able to win, the A/A community then has to decide if they want four more years under a GOP regime that won't do anything for them or if they'd rather have a Clinton in charge and reap the benefits of that decision. This is why the claims that A/A will desert the Dem candidate if it's Hillary make no sense at all. The fantasy that the Clintons are racists is nothing more than the product of a nasty campaign race.


by SoCalHillMan on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:26:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

The real question is how much of a delegate net will she grab with a 12 point win? How are they distributed? If BO gets 90% vote in AA communities in Philly and in Pitt, how will that translate to delegates? What does it mean if she cleans up in Scranton and Harrisburg?

I think we all realize she is going to "win" Pennsylvania, but can she grab enough delegates to even make it appear like she is competitive in the elected delegate race. The momentum that HC got out of big wins in Texas and Ohio ended when it became clear that BO gained just as many delegates in Ms. and Wy.

This is the problem with the MSM treating these primaries as electoral college triumphs and not as a series of small micro-contests. She needs delegates. Momentum is not quantifiable. Otherwise, he says the morning after Pennsylvania, "Scoreboard!!"


by bgbosox on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:16:54 PM EST

Intentionally Dishonest (2.00 / 1)

First, the PPP states:

The survey's margin of errors is +/- 4.0%

A 4.0% MoE poll, especially an outlier whose demographics also reflect results inconsistent with out polls, is useless.

Second, the selection appears to be intentionally dishonest.
The Q poll says

#  White voters go with Clinton 61 - 33 percent, compared to 56 - 37 percent February 27.
# Black voters back Obama 76 - 18 percent, compared to 69 - 23 percent February 27.

These results completely contradict the cited PPP poll (by a less well known group that has a huge error % and who reaches results that contradict the demographics in every primary to this point)
Clinton even appears to be making in roads among black voters in the state. She trails just 63-27 with that group, which Obama has tended to get over 80% of the vote from in key primary states so far. She has a 40 point lead, 63-23, with white voters.

And of course does not address that a 26% margin and a 12% margin are nothing alike.  The slant is just insane right now.  


McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.
by PantsB on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:17:22 PM EST

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Spreadsheet? Come on she is going to blow him away in Pennsylvania and have bragging rights to having one all but one large blue state, that being Illinois. You "0" supporters are hilarious


Steven Shaman Publisher Skywatch-Media News
by steve468 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:17:42 PM EST

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Bragging rights are all she will have. Obama has already won the nomnation. Brag away about PA. Then go back to being Jr. Senator from NY.


by LibDem on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:33:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The last time that I looked (none / 0)

neither of them has won the nomination.  Neither of them has crossed the threshold.  Just saying.


by lisadawn82 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:25:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

WHAT has Obama won? Last I checked, he will arrive at the convention shy more than a few votes of the required 2025. Right now, the SD are looking at each other, looking at the rule book, and finding no requirement other than to vote on the basis "for the good of the party", are free to save their collective political tails and award Hillary the nomination rather than go down with the S.S.Obama.


by SoCalHillMan on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:28:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

If he gets blown out by 25 points in PA, and gets narrow wins or losses in IN and NC, you might have a point.  Want to lay a bet that this poll isn't like other polls that have shown short-term Clinton bumps, but then return to baseline?

Individual polls are all over the place, changes in a single poll by less than the MOE are not trends.


by APoxOnBoth on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 10:05:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

You are ignoring the fact that the SD are NOT bound by the total popular votes or total pledged delegates or number of states won. They are allowed to cast their votes solely on the basis of what they believe will be THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE PARTY. Period. Not whether Hillary or Obama supporters will take their bats and balls and go home if their candidate isn't the nominee.

As I said, the SD will be watching the poll numbers and the results from the remaining primaries, and if it looks like all Obama has is the math totals he's racked up mostly in states that haven't gone Democratic in the last several election cycles, there's no way they're voting him in as the nominee, especially if they feel he's going to take them down with him in November.


by SoCalHillMan on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:44:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

You guys keep telling each other this as if it were true.  He's won as many Blue states and Swing states as she has, and by bigger margins.  You keep focuing on the "Big 4", there's 46 other states.


by APoxOnBoth on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 01:34:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Hillary has not only CA, NY, TX, and OH in column, but also MA, NJ, FL, MI and PA soon to be added to the winner's column, along with the rest of her states. Of the major states in Obama's column, the only one guaranteed to go Dem is IL, as Georgia will most certainly vote for McCain.

And yes, some states do count more than others. CA is the world's 6th largest economy all by itself. You'd be hard pressed to make the case most of Obama's states would be on the same playing field not only with CA, but most of the states Hillary has won.


by SoCalHillMan on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 11:10:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

While I love to see a 26-point lead in PA, I'm thinking that's not sustainable.   Assuming the black vote returns to him by 90-10 margins, that reduces the lead to 16 points.


99% perspiration
by DaveOinSF on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:20:10 PM EST

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

I'm not sold that the speech helped Obama, although I don't think it hurt him either.  The politics of race, the issue of race, is something where I don't think a speech is going to significantly impact perceptions and realities when it comes to individuals.  I may be proven wrong about this, but there's been a legacy of discourse on the issue that would seem to suggest that.  To deny race as a factor in anything is to deny, in many respects, reality.

This was a very necessary speech for Barack.  He had to make that speech.  He had to talk about it.  I don't think this puts anything to bed just yet.  That said, there's another reality out there.  Simply put, the onus on PA has always been on HRC.  They have to win this, and win big, whereas Obama just has to avoid losing badly.  

I think it'll be crucial to watch the news cycle in the next few days.  How does HRC take back the media attention.


by toonsterwu on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:21:09 PM EST

Jerome, PA is irrelevant (1.00 / 0)

You and I both know that Obama is going to lose PA but that is besides the point. The dem primary is over. Hillary has lost. There is no conceivable way that she can win. Especially now that re-votes in MI and FL are kaput. This thing is over. The Pastor video and subsequent uproar was a test for the super delegates to see how he was going to survive the Limbaugh/O'Reilly/Gingrich assault come summer and fall. He passed.  This is over. Obama has won more delegates (100- 150 and counting). Obama has more votes (almost a million). Obama has won more states (2 to 1) Hillary cannot catch up. Its statistically impossible. PA is irrelevant. The supers will weigh in shortly and we can all move on.


by aiko on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:21:34 PM EST

Re: Jerome, PA is irrelevant (none / 0)

Which is really too bad, if true. I think Obama loses to McCain in November. HRC has a better chance, IMO. Obama is too damaged and HRC does better in the states we need to win.

Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I doubt it.


by OtherLisa on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:27:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome, PA is irrelevant (none / 0)

McCain is a formidable candidate. Hilary is not. Obama is a match for McCain, but I agree he might well lose against him. It is a gamble. Less of a gamble than Hillary though.


by LibDem on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:34:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome, PA is irrelevant (none / 0)

This absolutely undersells the one thing that HRC has done much better than many national Democrats and that is HRC's ability to go into non-traditional Democratic areas and not only win over votes, but to maintain votes.  Granted, the sampling is only from upstate New York.  That said, upstate New York isn't exactly a liberal bastion.  She's been able to make strong connections to the communities, often times, Republican areas, and maintained it because she has shown that she can do good by them.

To me, that's a formidable candidate.  Now, I will say this, as I've said all along.  I don't have any issues with Obama (but I still question if he can win enough of the rural/blue collar votes in a GE).  And if HRC loses, the only person that she has to blame is, well, herself (well, her campaign).


by toonsterwu on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:59:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome, PA is irrelevant (none / 0)

You're kidding, right?  She's been repeating over and over that her strategy for the general is a repeat of Gore/Kerry, take the big blue states for granted and pour money into 4 swing states.  She'll be pure poison for down-ticket races in red states, just as her husband was.


by APoxOnBoth on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 10:09:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome, PA is irrelevant (none / 0)

If you don't want "damaged goods" then you really can't back Clinton, I mean you'd need a third canidate option.


by Socraticsilence on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:37:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome, PA is irrelevant (none / 0)

Well, before the Wright thing exploded, I questioned Obama's chances against McCain because of the "experience" factor. I think the this plus Wright is a particularly toxic combination against a war vet/hero/POW.

I agree that HRC has her negatives as well, but she neutralizes the "experience" issue - and please, folks, don't bombard me with questioning whether she is experienced or whether her experience counts or what have you - a majority of voters perceive her as crossing that threshold, and her baggage is pretty much old news. In other words, Clinton already reached her floor in terms of negatives; Obama's floor remains to be seen.


by OtherLisa on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 08:11:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome, PA is irrelevant (none / 0)

48% is one hell of a "floor".  She starts 2%+1 from losing, and you call that a strength?


by APoxOnBoth on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 10:12:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome, PA is irrelevant (none / 0)

everytime I give this blog another chance i regret it. down rated for voicing an opinion


by aiko on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 08:30:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He doesn't need to DO anything w/rt Clinton (2.00 / 1)

He's already locked up the election.  Even if he gets blown out in PA, he's still going to be the nominee.


by empath on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:25:04 PM EST

Doesn't Obama math (2.00 / 1)

dictate that he will be the nominee?  I've never understood why Obama and his supporters don't just lie low and coast to victory.  Going negative now can only hurt his ability to get Republican and swing voters in November.


by Upstate Dem on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:25:46 PM EST

Re: Doesn't Obama math (none / 0)

Controlling reasonably for external forces doesn't mean he gets to take the next couple months off.

He's essentially locked up the nomination as long as he stays in the race is what it means.  If Hillary won 100% of the rest of the delegates, she'd be the nominee... but the point is, that's not a very likely outcome.


by leshrac55 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:30:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doesn't Obama math (none / 0)

Then why go negative at all?  Because Hillary might get 99%?  Going negative undercuts the very rationale of his general election strategy, which is that he's a post-partisan uniter.


by Upstate Dem on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:42:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doesn't Obama math (none / 0)

I mean, I'm not even sure why I'm answering this, but here goes..

As long as Clinton is officially in the race, he has to actually... you know, campaign.  He hasn't gone exceedingly negative against her, though.  Right now they seem to be focusing on her secrecy: eg, tax forms, donors, etc.  That's negative, but it's not like, say, mentioning that John McCain would be a better president than him.

Essentially, as long as he's being attacked, he needs to defend himself to maintain viability in the general election as well.  At the same time, he'd probably like to "officially" wrap it up sooner rather than later.  A PA win, for instance, would do that for him.

Either way, if you want to stick your head in the sand and believe that there's a reasonable chance that Clinton can win, go right ahead. This Wright "controversy" was her best chance, and, even if you didn't like his speech, the media basically loved it and will basically remove Wright from dominating the news for 24-hours at a time.  So, again, controlling for reasonable external forces, Obama has this wrapped up.  Clinton probably has less than a 5% chance of taking the nomination now, but I guess, given the job she's applying for, is enough for her to stay in the race.


by leshrac55 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:59:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doesn't Obama math (none / 0)

Because Clinton's campaign (and supporters) continue to try to attack Obama.

Look at all the diaries.  Look at all the front page entries.  Until McCain demonstrated his senility, every piece was a hit on Obama.  


McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.
by PantsB on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:31:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doesn't Obama math (none / 0)

MyDD can be a pretty sick place.  Too many people here care about Clinton/Obama than Republican/Democrat.


by Timetheos on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:15:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doesn't Obama math (2.00 / 1)

Maybe it's because they know the math is NOT locked up yet.  If he doesn't get the 2208 or whatever and she doesn't either, we don't have it locked up, now do we?


by Montague on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:38:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

lol  Good one.  Judgement...with this and Rezko just under way.  Mmmm, yeah.


by LindaSFNM on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:27:53 PM EST

Obama does not need to win PA (none / 0)

He will make up for a loss there  in Indiana and NC.
He just gained 10 extra delegates in IA on top of what he was projected to win on election day. That wipes out Clinton's big win in Ohio. And he won TX, when delegates are counted. He will also win more superdelegates because they are politicians too and see that is the best way to improve their own reelection chances.

Clinton will win PA. She will have more party flaks voting for her. That is not enough to make up for her losses in February. She can hang on hoping for a miracle, like Huckabee did. It will work just as well for her.


by LibDem on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:30:29 PM EST

Re: Obama does not need to win PA (none / 0)

The funny thing is that Clinton's constant belittlement of caucus states may actually have won him additional delegates in Iowa.


by rfahey22 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:34:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great strategy to win delegates: insult them! (none / 0)

Hillary Clinton is a great policy expert. She is not talented enough as a politician.


by LibDem on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:36:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wrong (none / 0)

I've got a sister and some friends who attended the county conventions.  No such thing was discussed.  Some Edwards supporters drifted.  Some stayed firm.


by Montague on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:44:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrong (none / 0)

Interesting.  I was repeating Chuck Todd's speculation from a few days ago, not my own.


by rfahey22 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:45:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrong (none / 0)

Chuck Todd is an idiot.  I have a local friend surnamed Todd who's involved in Democratic politics and we love to tease him about being related to Chucky... not.


by Montague on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:02:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrong (none / 0)

But he's got the best goattee in the biz.


by rfahey22 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:05:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

A couple of things what "bounce" 12 points is pretty much what it was earlier if not a slight improvement, the 26 point edge has not only a massive amount of undecideds but as someone pointed out earlier highly flawed internals.

steve- if what you're saying is the case (and its highly debatable) how are "H" supporters planning on spinning her blowout losses in virtually every swing state: VA, MN, WI, WA (for her at least), CO, and IA (add her probable blowout losses in NC and OR one flippable for O the other solid blue for him and MCcain for her) outside of the tossup states (NM and MO) and the screwy, "up in the air" states, she's won two states that could be considered tight (OH and AR) and only one of those (AR) is a state that Obama doesn't have a very good chance in. Even including FL (MI is not countable, all data suggest it would be a draw right now and Obama was not an option for voters), she has the edge in what 3 current swing states (FL,OH,AR) add PA and that's 4, in what way would that be the sort of definitve case that supers would need to overturn Obama's delegate edge.


by Socraticsilence on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:31:34 PM EST

34 point lead? (none / 0)

Heh - the PPP poll under-weights women.  Only 55% of the poll.  In Ohio, it was 59%.

If you reweight the poll, it's 61-27 - a 34 point lead for Hillary.


99% perspiration
by DaveOinSF on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:31:46 PM EST

Re: 34 point lead? (none / 0)

I'll go on record and say that if Clinton wins by 34 points in PA, I will donate money to her campaign.  A 67/33 split just won't happen.


by leshrac55 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:38:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 34 point lead? (none / 0)

I have no illusions.  The AA vote will return to Obama in 90/10 levels and that will narrow the poll quite a bit.

I just think it's funny.


99% perspiration
by DaveOinSF on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:43:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Whats puzzling about Obama supporters is they really equate the nomination with the presidency. It doesn't work that way in America and Barry may think he will "get her voters" but he is in for a rude awakening. Hillary has gotten plenty of votes too you know! I guess we aren't part of the Democratic Party. What chances would the Dems have in November without blue collar whites, white women, seniors, Jews and Latinos? McCain will put all those voters in play against Obama. Obama has people under 30, blacks and latte liberals. Whether Clinton OR Obama like it or not they cannot win the general without the other.


by rossinatl on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:42:25 PM EST

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

Why are you so sure that a combined ticket would not simply amplify the negatives of both?  I'm not saying that that would happen, but I can imagine that it would, and I haven't seen any data that the supposed "dream ticket" actually would work in a positive way.


by rfahey22 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:45:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

agreed
the Latina vote is much bigger block of voters than the AA vote
the blue collar workers are a HUGE Dem block of voters
if on April 22nd PA results look like OH, and HRC is ahead in the popular vote after Puerto Rico, I think a joint ticket is the only way to unify the party or we will see McCain Dems come out in huge numbers in the GE
ginaswo
by ginaswo on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:20:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (2.00 / 1)

I feel she was very gracious to Obama today, when she talked about his speech.

I love it when they are friendly to each other. I hate it, when they fight.


by ListenNOW on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:45:56 PM EST

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

I think it would be healing for the party if Clinton went out and said that she wasn't seeking, nor would she accept the votes of people who are voting for her because of Wright's comments.


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:16:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: PA polls (none / 0)

How could she "not accept" votes from anyone?


Bitch is the New Black
by Iphie on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:24:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]