The racial graph

Two things: 1) The narrative of this primary campaign, around the accusations of racism and the accusations of race-baiting, seems set in stone; 2) Obama is one psychologically unique person.

HCD Research has some innovative technology that they've used for the Wright rant. I've long wanted to put it to use myself, it ought to do away with the costly focus groups that most campaigns use (or at least supplement half of them). They were able to spot the SwiftBoaters early on in '04, and were pretty much spot on with seeing its influence. This is a completed graph of users watching the rants by Jerimiah Wright:

Its self-explanatory, but if you want to see it in action, go here. The bad news for Obama is that Wright is so toxic. I knew it in the visceral reaction that I had to it, and went off with an emotion-laden blogpost. Us secular warriors just don't get it; I happen to have had a Christian fundamentalist upbringing and know what America's church-goers saw.




Rasmussen already showed similar results, with only a 8% favorability rating for Wright. I was amazed that 66% of those polled had already heard about or seen Wright. 73% see Wright's comments as racially devisive. Among Republicans, 70% were less likely to vote for Obama, among Independents, 57% are less likely, and among Democrats 44% are less likely. Where this appears to hit hardest for Obama is among the youth. There's a question of "How Important is Faith and Religion in How You Vote?" and the number saying its important are higher in the 18-29 aged group than any other age segment, which I've seen in other polls as well. 62% of those aged 18-29 said they were less likely to vote for Obama because of Wright, higher than any other age group. And it's yet to completely trickle out among this age group, due to their non-mainstream media habits. Only 58% of those aged 18-29 have viewed it, lower than the other age groups.

The big question is how much of this is an introduction and branding of Obama nationally, as opposed to Wright. I think we could hope that its more of the latter, but that's going to mean Obama has to make it that way. He's tried to straddle the issue to date, and not separate fully from Wright. There's another video here, with HCD tracking, which shows the response to Obama himself on the issue, and he does better. That's the good news. If he can reach people, and satisfy their questions, he can possibly turn it around.

I don't think the way that he's pitched the speech he's going to give tomorrow, as talking about "the larger issue of race in this campaign" will suffice to put away the issue of Wright. Particularly if Obama  continues with the angle of saying about Wright that "the caricature that's being painted of him is not accurate." Wright is in Farrakhan land, as far as the American public is concerned. If he tries platitudes and rhetoric, everyone will wonder about what they heard an hour after the speech, and resume the questions about Wright's influence on Obama. I also don't think his telling white America why black America has different standards of preaching will fly.

Let me put it this way, Obama's not going to change minds about what they see in Wright. The dismissal and repudiation of Wright must be addressed, and in a way so complete that there is no doubt that 20 years of a close relationship does not mean a thing. If Obama wants to keep Wright as part of his life, and try and convince that its a net positive, he's going to pay a deep price.

Those who think this is something that will be forgotten as long as we ignore it enough have had their head in the sand for the first days of this explosive issue. Obama's camp relies deeply on polling, and no doubt, they too see the writing on the wall.

The only way out of this is for Obama to have completely disavowed and distanced himself from Wright-- a long time ago. Now, he's stuck with it as part of his negative brand. The core of his message, of leading us to a post-racial America and his having good judgment skills, is all thrashed.

The partisan knives among the Republicans are out and won't go away. Those supporters that cleverly thought he got it all out on a Friday dump were naive. His negatives are already nearing the same level as Clinton. Obama has never had to face a general election test. He has subscribed to a post-partisan worldview in a world that is through and through caught in an extremely partisan time.

Those whom believe in him the most don't see it yet, but there's a lot crashing down around Obama right now. Is his speech the 'one chance' to turn it around? You tell. I must say though, that seeing this part of Obama, and getting beyond the marketing crapola of his faux-evangelical 'movement' campaign, I've come to like even more where he's coming from as a person. This is not a pretty and wholistic world, it's messy and ugly and out of sync mostly. There are some good parts too.



Display:


It won't even be remembered come November... (1.75 / 4)

Your candidate lost Jerome now it's time to get on board and bring your followers over to Obama. Can you do that?


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:40:39 PM EST

I may be confused... (2.00 / 5)

...Or maybe I missed it on the news, but can someone please tell me when Sen. Obama received the requisite number of delegates to clinch the Democratic nomination for the office of President of the United States on the first ballot?

Until either candidate receives a majority of the delegate votes cast, there is no winner and there is no loser.

My candidate, Hillary Clinton, has not lost.  Your candidate, Barack Obama, has not won.

Until either candidate reaches a "majority vote of the Convention's delegates" (that's from the Call for the 2008 Democratic National Convention in case you were wondering) this race is not over and there are no winners or losers.


by andrewalker08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:48:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's over... (none / 0)

FL is not re-voting. Obama will lead in every metric. Go discuss it on the last post and come back here when you catch up.


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:07:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is it not true... (2.00 / 2)

...That Article VIII.C.7.b. of the Call for the 2008 Democratic National Convention says "A majority vote of the Convention's delegates shall be required to nominate the presidential candidate"; and

Is it not further true that Appendix B of the Call for the 2008 Democratic National Convention sets the total number of Convention delegate votes at 4,049; and

Is it not further true that a majority of the 4,049 Convention delegate votes is equal to 2,024.5 Convention delegate votes; and

Is it not further true that as of March 17, 2008, neither Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama have the requisite number of Convention delegate votes required to nominate the presidential candidate; and

Is it not further true that if Hillary Clinton nor Barack Obama have the requisite number of Convention delegate votes, then any assertion that either one of those two candidates have "won" or "lost" is incorrect?


by andrewalker08 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:16:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is it not true... (none / 0)

Speaking of delegates - there's a "Breaking Blue" post about another superdelegate for Obama.
But earlier today - MSNBC reported this wasn't an addition because she was already a delegate.

I don't believe they can be counted twice.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:25:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How is Clinton gonna get superdelegates? (none / 0)

If she can't win caucuses. It's over. Get used to it.


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:36:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How is Clinton gonna get superdelegates? (2.00 / 2)

I can't help but notice you've done everything you can to change the subject. Are you able to discuss the content of the diary?


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:40:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm replying to space cadets like you Kirk (none / 0)

It(wright) won't matter because the recession will be so bad that no one will want McCain/Bush/Republicanism economic policies.


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:59:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm replying to space cadets like you Kirk (none / 0)

I'll take that as a "no, I can't discuss the content of the diary.  I'm busy changing the subject".


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 03:50:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I may be confused... (none / 0)

BHO is very likely to meet the threshold before the convention (I'd say around middle of June). Care to take a wager? The only reason this ain't over thus far is because the superdels are waiting for the "vetting" process to play itself out.

Once Obama gives his speech regarding the role of race in the nomination process thus far (and in American society in general), the superdels will have had all their concerns addressed (in no small part due to Hillary fighting tooth and nail for the nomination; so she definitely deserves kudos in that respect).

A whole can of whupass is about to open up on HRC regarding her prevarication on things like earmarks, Clinton library donations, business/PAC/lobbyist connections, tax returns etc.

Face it. Every single so-called scandal that was supposed to have decimated the Obama campaign has, heretofore, done squat to slow him down. Obama will most likely be the Democratic nominee for POTUS. And he's gonna win with or without your vote. So stock up on the Xanax -- you're evidently going to need lots it!


I love all people ... even fundamentally flawed ones -- me.
by pitahole on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:12:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I may be confused... (2.00 / 3)

Of course, Obama doesn't need boomers, the working class, Catholics, or Latinos to win the General.
He'll have all those Repub and Indy "Dems for a day" standing in longgggg lines to vote for HIM.
Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:33:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

right (none / 0)

and Clinton does not need Obama supporters


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:43:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I may be confused... (2.00 / 1)

Bill Clinton himself said that most Democrats think both candidates would make a good President, they just favor one or the other right now. I really don't find this notion that even a significant minority of people will wake up after we choose a nominee, either one, and say "well... I used to care about the economy and the courts, I thought health care was a good thing, the war mattered to me, but, well, gee, I guess I'll just vote against my conscience and my values and everything I wanted for the country, 'cuz gosh darn it, the other person beat my favorite candidate." I really can't see any likelihood of that happening outside a few pissed-off residents of the blogosphere. I suppose it's a bit more likely if Hillary were the nominee; Obama's supporters do have a higher percentage of Independents and weak Republicans who might switch over. Even then, though, they're looking for some level of change, and McCain sure likes more of the same even more than does Hillary Clinton. I'm not saying either can just take the others' supporters "for granted". There needs to be reaching out and inclusion. There needs to be some time for people to adjust and come together. But I've seen people jumping up and down saying that people will never support <X> if they support <Y> now... and it very seldom happens that way. Polling data also partly contradicts your view, or at least says it makes less of a difference than you're thinking. In Ohio, for instance, both candidates poll the same vs. McCain. That's true in some states. In others there's a little swing either way... in a few bigger swings. But in very few of them (Arkansas may be the only counterexample, and there are obvious reasons for it) is the swing so pronounced that you could conclude that the voters are saying, if not Hillary/Obama than McCain, in any truly large number.
No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:40:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I may be confused... (none / 0)

I'll take that wager. What are we wagering that no one will meet the threshold before convention? That is unless a mutual deal is strike by BOTH candidates?


by Marvin42 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:34:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I may be confused... (none / 0)

Ohmygod ... that is so pathetic.

Your guy's chances of winning in November are absolutely crashing down all around your feet (just look at the reaction on that graph) and as long as he wins the nomination you really don't care ... I'm not sure there's a word for that level of cynicism. So much for "hope" ...


by ColoradoGuy on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:32:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It won't even be remembered come November... (2.00 / 1)

Only in Monte Slobovia do the generalissimos declare elections to be over months before people have a chance to vote.


by johnnygunn on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:00:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly, and Jerome is not even the same person (none / 0)

Exactly, and Jerome is not even the same person he used to be.

He has thrown away all of his values and ideas. And I think all of it is because he has always believed a Black man cannot win the White House.

Jerome has sold everything he believes in because of fear.

And that's sad.


by Dave Dial on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:15:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

well... (2.00 / 1)

...i doubt that jerome's gonna cry himself to sleep tonight worrying about what you think of him. this adolescent "vote the way we tell you to or we won't like you" stuff doesn't work over here. we're adults. jerome's an adult. markos is an adult too, he's just having a relapse right now.

jerome knows that people will be better off is the democrats win in november.  obama's had a pretty good run, but he's run out of gas on this one. the superdelegates serve a purpose- they prevent the party from throwing away elections they don't have to lose. after obama melts down over this wright mess, he's gonna look like the untested figure he always was before he started all this "movement" hokum. obama's never been in a contested statewide election, much less a national one.


by campskunk on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:25:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well... (2.00 / 1)

Again - its sad that you actually HOPE that Obama "melts down" over this instead of preservering and overcoming it

I might support Obama, but I don't want hillary to "melt down"

Get a grip.... if you want hillary to win so badly that you want Obama to have a melt down just for her to win the nomination, then you have serious problems

and your comment about  "obama's never been in a contested statewide election, much less a national one."..... neither has hillary...anyone could have beaten Lazio, and that no-namer she faced in 2006 was a complete joke


by stevepdx5 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:40:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So (1.66 / 3)

We disenfranchise Florida and Michigan and hand the Republicans a nominee that can be cast as racist and someone that consorts with felons. Brilliant!


by MediaFreeze on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:40:39 PM EST

Re: So (none / 0)

Tough one.  Not sure which candidate you're referring to.  Gravel?


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:47:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So (none / 0)

Clinton is NOT a racist, how many times does it have to be said.  And yes, she consorts with felons, but what does that have to do with the issues?


by shalca on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:13:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So (none / 0)

I assumed he/she meant Obama.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:35:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So (none / 0)

MediaFreeze definitely meant Obama.  Shalca was trying to be witty.


by Montague on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:57:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So (none / 0)

key word - trying


by shalca on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:04:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So (none / 0)

Are you sure he meant Obama, I mean the felons thing certainly fits more with Hillary than Obama.


by Socraticsilence on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:09:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So (none / 0)

Yep, I'm sure.


by Montague on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:17:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (2.00 / 1)

This is just the start and I was watching CNN Election Center, where Steve Kornacki of NY Observer said this is powder material for GOP.

If we nominate Obama now, down-ticket people in WV, MO, KS, AR, etc. will be hurt. Gone are those comments that Obama was "clean". With this "spiritual mentor", that is not the case.


by American1989 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:40:44 PM EST

Re: The racial graph (2.00 / 1)

And I remember when the pundits said that Bill Clinton couldn't be elected in 1992, and when they said that Hillary Clinton couldn't be elected to the Senate in NY, and when they said that Bill Clinton would have to resign because of the accusation of the affair with Monica.

Really, folks, you might want to rethink your faith in the punditocracy.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:56:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (2.00 / 1)

there is a big difference. people can forgive and forget sex scandals; but for this American hating preacher, this does have problems. And, our country isn't completely over the issue of race, so this brings up the divisions. hillary in NY was just another thing


by American1989 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:59:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (2.00 / 0)

So what? This isn't Obama saying this ... it's someone else. This is waaaaay overblown.


by Oregonian on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:05:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm speechless (2.00 / 2)

Some of the commenting here goes beyond naive to utterly deluded.

Here is reality:

Obama may be the likely nominee but this Wright stuff is radioactive. Combine that with the "inexperience" factor and McCain will win in the fall. And win big.

I don't like the idea of a President McCain at all. But that is the most likely outcome at this point.

And please, stop blaming those of us who have the "audacity" to point this out.


by OtherLisa on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:58:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

as a New Yorker (none / 0)

no one (sane) ever said Hillary wouldnt win New York.  that is, unless you are referring to McBush's people, who appear to be Hillary's only chance at challenging Barack at this point.


by Ajax the Greater on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:03:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did Clinton's Spiritual Mentor - (2.00 / 2)

Supposedly the most important influence in his life -
Say, "God damn America!"?

Now, it's one thing to say "I am not a crook."
And another to say, "I did not sexual relations with that woman."
Or that someone has all the advantages because he is a black man.
Or that some candidate is a monster.

But to be intimately connected for most of his life with someone who says, "God damn America!"
is simply not going to go away.

It is here to stay.


by johnnygunn on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:05:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It truly is incredible that they still pretend .. (2.00 / 1)

not to "get" the fact that this stuff is TOXIC in American politics, that "God Damn America" is going to play really poorly juxtasuposed with war hero/POW McCain. Have they completely lost their minds and forgotten what elections in this country are like? If Repugs could make John Karry a traitor just imagine what the average voter will think of Obama by the time the Repugs are done.

Apparently, they don't care about winning the GE-they just want to stick it to Clinton supporters and prove they were "right" and the promptly lose the election for dems. All I want is to pick a candidate that actually knows how to win and the one who has been sittin with Rev God Damn America for 20 years ain't the ticket.


berkshiretrueblue Commited to helping elect a Democrat as President "Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo" Ambroise Bierce
by berkshiretrueblue on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:35:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

Obama is a muslim manchurian candidate.

Obama is an angry black racist christian.

Which is it? These two sentiments are diametrically opposed and would make any sane person's head spin.


I love all people ... even fundamentally flawed ones -- me.
by pitahole on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:15:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

It's neither.  Obama is running a campaign based on his sound judgement and his ability to "get it right the first time". He has said a thousand times that his judgement is better than Hillary's.  His two decades long friendship with a man of Wright's character and bizarre beliefs speaks volumes about that judgement.


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:46:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

  I just don't get it.  Hillary gets more sludge thrown at her by the right-wing then anyone, but you go on supporting her anyway.  Now that the right-wing is going after Obama, not only do you think this somehow weakens him, you join the attacks.  


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:00:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

This is Obama's own creation unlike Hillary's.


by Sandeep on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 12:55:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (2.00 / 3)

Of course right after watching those videos people are going to have a negative reaction -- how could they not?  I'm an Obama supporter and I do too.

The real question is a week later how much difference it's going to make.  And that depends on how much people like you, Jerome, keep this issue front-and-center.

Polling from after this broke don't seem to have moved much.  You say Obama's negatives are at Clinton level -- got a reference for that?


by EvilCornbread on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:41:57 PM EST

Exactly... (none / 0)

Like how Jerome posts it right after a post all but telling Clinton that her campaign is over. Jerome is still living in a world prior to FL not re-voting.


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:45:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly... (2.00 / 1)

Hmm, you do realize that Florida not revoting may play right into the Clinton plan, right? She won FL, and won big. So a revote MAY have helped Sen Obama. Without a revote she will continue to state that she won X delegates and Y popular vote more.

Only thing Sen Obama gains by not revoting is losing again.

You know SD don't really care about the official revote, right?


by Marvin42 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:38:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If you think that the vote will count as is... (none / 0)

you are delusional. FL re-vote was her only path to winning some metric. Now she has no chance. Thus it is over. Get used to it.


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:53:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you think that the vote will count as is... (none / 0)

No delusion, just strategy. Nothing to get over really.


by Marvin42 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:59:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you think that the vote will count as is... (none / 0)

Great strategy. Like blocking punches with your face?


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:03:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you think that the vote will count as is... (none / 0)

No like leaving uncertainty and doubt about the state of the race because one of the largest states has not had its votes counted.


by Marvin42 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:31:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Honestly, no re-vote in FL means (none / 0)

Obama has to knock her out beyond FL wins.

You can't have Obama as the nominee who tried to ignore FL.

Are we just itching to lose the election or something.

No FL re-vote, means Hillary is the winner of 1.7 million vote contest of historically high numbers.  And Obama is left trying to game FL worse than George Bush.


by chieflytrue on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 02:34:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you think that the vote will count as is... (none / 0)

The only thing certain right now is that Obama is TOAST in the general election.  No speeches, no denials, no waffling, no carefully worded statements can counter the 30 second ads that will run all month long in October showing the damn america clips with pictures of Ghaddafi and Farrakhan.  Maybe they'll mention Obama's book or Michele's comments.  And they don't even have to make this stuff up like they did with Kerry.

As much as bloggers hate McCain, he is pretty widely considered to be a decent and competent guy in the human world.  Republicans (who are not neocons), independents, and even Democrats will be able to vote for him without holding their noses.  We are not running against Bush, as much as our strategy will be to make him look that way.

I hope the voters in PA, NC, and the superdelegates save us from this guy if tomorrow's speech is anything other than a suspension of his campaign.


by ricosuave on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 02:57:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

Yes, there's a reason why Obama is giving the speech. And don't you think that will get a lot of publicity, thus reframing coverage of this issue?

Obama may or may not be effective, but one cannot assume that he will not be -- not based on the very frail evidence so far.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:47:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (2.00 / 1)

His big speech is make or break. I KNEW the polls would be showing this over the weekend. He needs to be honest, he needs to be forthcoming, he needs to appear STRONG. Evasiveness will not help him here. All that will help him will be a serious, strong defense of why he went to that church. And that will require a defense of Jeremiah Wright that goes above and beyond the call of duty.

If the polls don't improve, even if Hillary doesn't win the nomination, he may have already lost. This ain't a religious thing, it's a question of credibility. If voters think that Obama has painted himself another color (this is NOT a racial remark, I swear) while bragging about being untainted, that's very bad.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:58:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

Oh, and please understand I voted for Obama and am rooting for him. I just root for the Democratic party more, and if it looks like Clinton has a better chance of winning, I'll have to jump ship.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:59:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

how exactly does McCain's wannabe VP (none / 0)

win the Democratic nation?  plot out her path for me?  since Super Tuesday the Super Delegates have been +47 Barack and -7 for Hillary, and the non-super delegates have been equally disproportionate.

explain to me the path to the WH for Hillary?


by Ajax the Greater on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:05:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: how exactly does McCain's wannabe VP (none / 0)

Once again: the path is easy. No one wins the magic number, Hillary comes up with the popular vote win, Barack Obamas numbers go south. Watch remaining SDs rush over to the Clinton side.


by Marvin42 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:37:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary isn't going to win the popular vote (none / 0)

not that it matters anyway.

The super delegates will continue coming to Obama, especially after the FEC reports are made public in early April. The Super's will go with Obama because he is a better fund raiser - and it isn't even close.

The preacher thing doesn't matter. I was at a gathering over the weekend in PA, with friends that are fairly middle of the road. Typical Philly suburb voters - some Reps, some Indys some Dems. They didn't care about the preacher crap - what they cared about is Bear Stearns losing 50 percent of their market cap in a day (last Friday before the Sunday fire sale). The worry about the economy and the markets was palatable. Typical discussion: "My kid wants to go to XYZ University - How am I going to afford it? - the economy sucks and the market is scary - why are we spending money in Iraq?". That's what is important, the economy and Iraq. Everything else, including the preacher, is background noise.

Obama is going to put Iraq around McCain's neck and let him sink with it. HRC can't do this. Sure she can win a GE at the margins, but Obama is going to sweep in on a wave. Iraq and the economy - that's what's important, not something that some preacher said.

And yes - Obama is going to be the nominee, just look at the math. He will end up with more pledged delegates, more votes and more money. All you HRC diehards are in for a rough landing.


by johnnyappleseed on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:24:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary isn't going to win the popular vote (none / 0)

fundraising support that doesnt translate into support for other candidates (these unitemized gifts are a problem for this reason) is not likely to convince anyone of Obama's ability to anything for anyone other than Obama.


by hctb on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 03:08:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

Clinton's 3am ad flopped monumentally using this same graphing technique.  I should say it flopped with everyone but Clinton supporters.

They loved it.  Everyone else, not so much.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0 308/3_am_tested.html


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:17:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Jerome isn't flogging the issue? (none / 0)

Heh!

My Diet Coke just splashed my flat screen.

:-)


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:04:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

With or without Jerome... (2.00 / 0)

this issue is never going to be far from front and center from now until Nov 4th if Obama is in it that long.


by JimR on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:08:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (2.00 / 1)

If someone polled whether we were more or less likely to vote for Clinton based on the Watergate scandal, I'll put money on the fact that it comes out an overwhelming "less"!

Polling is misleading in general, but this is so obviously a useless poll I truly can't believe are believing it is relevant.

It's true, 8+ months prior to the election, Obama's campaign hasn't been helped, per se, by this story. But damn, he's handling it well, blitzkrieging the press, and turning this into what I assume will be a positive issue with his speech tomorrow.

It's just unbelievable that everyone in the blogosphere continues to believe that every single news story spells the death knell of every candidate's candidacy. Learn from your past! Look at your past comments and see how ridiculously hyperbolic they were!


by Jon on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:08:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

Really? You'd put money on people being less likely to vote for Clinton based on Watergate? I do believe I'll take that wager. Watergate and Clinton -- hmph. I thought she'd already been blamed for everything, I guess I just forgot that Nixon was her fault too.


Bitch is the New Black
by Iphie on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:50:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And people won't care about what Wright said when. (none / 0)

the economy is in total collapse due to Bush/McCain/Republicanism economics.


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:42:38 PM EST

Are you serious? (2.00 / 1)

1932? 1980? 1992? Just stop it. If you get caught don't respond. But don't just pull something out of your ass


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:04:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No proof, no evidence (none / 0)

Like you just did?


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:10:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No proof, no evidence (none / 0)

Are you serious?


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:38:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No proof, no evidence (2.00 / 1)

Yep. No proof, no evidence. Just another lame, off topic attempt to find an excuse for Obama's total lack of judgment.

People DO care what Wright says. That was the point of Jerome's diary.

And people won't care about what Wright said when the economy is in total collapse due to Bush/McCain/Republicanism economics.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:01:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No proof, no evidence (none / 0)

It's fucking March not October. Try playing that video when the economic news is front and center all day and winter is starting after a summer without vacation.

No Proof no evidence. Universal says that economic downturns cause voters to stick with those that got us into the mess. Because the second Hoover term really pulled us out of the depression. Or that landslide Carter victory over Reagan. And for you Hillary supporters we all remember Bush I beating Big Dawg on that campaign slogan it's the economy stupid.

No I didn't provide evidence to make Universal look stupid. You guys are all right we had second terms for Hoover, Carter, and Bush. We don't change in bad economic times.

The country will not care about the economy they will only care about Wright.

head explodes


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:13:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No proof, no evidence (none / 0)

Yes, it's March, not November. Thank you for your brilliant insight.

Jerome cites evidence that right now -- IN MARCH -- when we're choosing our nominee -- that the American electorate believes Wright is TOXIC. (See HCD Research, Rasmussen, et al.)  Obama's support is evaporating into the thin air from whence it came. That evidence remains UNREFUTED.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:38:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As stated in the previous post (none / 0)

FL will not have a re-vote. Clinton will not be our nominee. UNREFUTED.


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:49:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Off topic strawman (2.00 / 0)

Yep, disenfranchising millions of Florida voters is a winning strategy for Obama. NOT.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:12:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Off topic strawman (none / 0)

The news I was reading said that there was general agreement among the candidates and the party for no re-vote.

For example: "A supporter of Clinton, Wasserman Schultz had staunchly opposed a re-vote."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/17/f lorida.primary.decision/


by Timetheos on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 12:57:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Charlie Crist said today--Democrats (none / 0)

"eed to seat their delegates."  "Florida voters enthusiastically voted in record numbers for their candidates and no doubt the Democrats will do the sensible thing"

What a challenge!  George Bush honored the first count (might have even won a re-count because Panhandle votes and military overseas).

DNC going to count NO Florida votes?  We're going to have to count FL.


by chieflytrue on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 02:19:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No proof, no evidence (none / 0)

you can see that your evidence is restricting incumbents, right? Yeah. boo. Hillary Clinton<not the incumbent.</p>

by hctb on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 02:29:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you serious? (none / 0)

I just gave you three examples of economic downturns  and the changing of parties in the whitehouse because of it. I feel like Lewis Black right now.


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:41:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And people won't care about what Wright said w (none / 0)

And whoever gave you mojo for that comment is lost.


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:05:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And people won't care about what Wright said w (none / 0)

I don't have to look either. they are Hillary supporters like you. You cite no evidence and don't dispute mine.


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:44:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And people won't care about what Wright said w (none / 0)

And what evidence have you cited?  I have no idea what your background, but you really seem either quite naive about the power of propaganda particularly in bad times or you are willfully spoiling the waters.  I will at this time give you the benefit of the doubt and concede your naivite.


by anya109 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:29:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm naive... (none / 0)

answer me this. What do you think would be more important to the country: the economy or a Presidential nominee that's banging cocktail waitresses two at a time(godfather reference)?


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:37:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm naive... (none / 0)

Gore v. Bush.

Apparantly banging cocktail waitresses. I mean interns.


by hctb on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 02:32:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We are talking about Obama-McCain... (none / 0)

Clinton ain't gonna be the nominee though. There will be no FL re-vote. It's over get used to it. We are talking about Obama-McCain.


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:50:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

people do care and will care about (2.00 / 0)

Obama's judgment.  Besides the economy is not obama's strong point.


DON'T COUNT THE VOTES, DON'T COUNT THE VOTES.... Obama and the Obamaettes... spring 2008
by TeresaINPennsylvania on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:24:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And people won't care about what Wright said (2.00 / 0)

"the economy is in total collapse due to Bush/McCain/Republicanism economics."

absolutely, yes.

but what is the main issue of the day for Obama?  Obama's connections with Wright. I thought he is a uniter and is above fray. But his priority is preparing a speech in order to protect his political ambitions.

some people are asking for Hillary to withdraw. I think they are asking the wrong person.


by pleaseno on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 01:50:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (1.33 / 3)

Oh, goody. More of this crap, spoonfed by mydd.com.

What a crock. And for what? To prop up the DLC, anti-grassroots candidate, Hillary Rodham Clinton.


by Oregonian on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:43:50 PM EST

DLC endorsed Obama-- (none / 0)

grassroots organizing for Hillary happens right here.

Personal attacks, well maybe they're the "change you can believe in."


by chieflytrue on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 02:24:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: DLC endorsed Obama-- (none / 0)

You are misinformed.  Here is the link: http://www.dlc.org/.  Please read at the top - "Meet our leaders - Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton."  

Please, please folks, if you are going to use the internet, please use it to research before you state easily disprovable fables.


by zadura on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 02:33:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (2.00 / 2)

So is this your justification for keeping this story going, because that's what you're doing:

"The partisan knives among the Republicans are out and won't go away. Those supporters that cleverly thought he got it all out on a Friday dump were naive. His negatives are already nearing the same level as Clinton. Obama has never had to face a general election test. He has subscribed to a post-partisan worldview in a world that is through and through caught in an extremely partisan time."

Go right ahead, legitimize Republican partisan knives......because, hey, people, they're gonna come out anyway!

Jeez, Jerome, I thought you were smarter than that. Maybe you should go back and read Lakoff.

It's our job to tear down stupid attacks and to delegitimize tactics that keep us from talking about what's important to US.

Or.....let's just say fuck-it....I mean, wer're caught in an extremely partisan time. So let's start that real hard stuff, you know, later.

This is piss-poor judgment on your part, sorry.


James
by james c on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:44:30 PM EST

Re: The racial graph (2.00 / 0)

This story is going to go on regardless of whether Armstrong never writes another post on it. The real question is how do respond to it, not how to pretend it's not happening. On that front,. although Armstrong is biased, there is at least some effort in his post, if you read it, to talk bot that very issue.


by bruh21 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:46:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

Yes, Jerome and others, how about some sharp analysis about how Obama should respond?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:48:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

That'st he question i've started to ask. Hopefully he want spend time trying to appologize for his background. that would be the worse mistake. To pretend there is something that he personally needs to apologize here for. What he needs to do- in my view- is to go on the offensive, and called the willie horton moment here what it is,, and then return to talking about unity,b ut also integrate finally and at last into that. Now whether voters will let him is a gamble, but clearly to me it was alwyas delusional to think race wouldn't be a wedge issue.


by bruh21 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:53:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

I think the will do this tomorrow. I just wonder how this site will respond to remarks in philly. Attack or applaud? My money is on attack.


by Erik on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:59:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

Hell no!!! The entire problem is that voters thought Obama WAS beyond race. So he's got to paint his support of that church as beyond race, too.

Something like... It's a community church in a poor part of town that does a lot of stuff to help local kids. It uses racial rhetoric as a way to connect to a group of people that are not that well-educated and low on the social ladder. Obama doesn't agree with that rhetoric because he himself is biracial, but he thinks that they do a lot of good for the community and inspired him to do the same. Then he needs to shift the focus to their new pastor, Otis Moss, who is far less controversial.

Might as well throw in their diatribes against the evils of gangster rap music and violent media as well. It will resonate with white people and help in neutralizing the racially divisive perception of the church.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:06:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

If Obama starts talking about racism tomorrow, it's dumb as hell. MOVE PAST IT. PERMANENTLY.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:07:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're kidding, right? (none / 0)

If he says any of that he's dumber than I think he is.


by JimR on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:18:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're kidding, right? (none / 0)

No - it just represents part of the support that's been implicit all along. We support you so long as black is only food coloring. Hence the comment about bi-racial. He's not like those nasty blacks. I diaried on this subject a while back- it's called the "magic negro"

Here's how it goes from an LA TImes Article:

"Like a comic-book superhero, Obama is there to help, out of the sheer goodness of a heart we need not know or understand. For as with all Magic Negroes, the less real he seems, the more desirable he becomes. If he were real, white America couldn't project all its fantasies of curative black benevolence on him."

Many of his supporters thought this was an attack him. It was actually an attack on the mentality that voters have. Unfortunately I do agree that i may not be possible for him to give a more complex view of himself because he hasn't laid the ground work for this until now.


by bruh21 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:23:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh... ok. (none / 0)

As long as I can still project my fantasies of curative black benevolence on him.

/rolleyes


by JimR on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:41:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

Pfft. That'd be horrible. That this church supposedly "uses racism for good ends" is the worst thing Obama could possibly say.

To transcend race, Obama's answer should go all the way back to what he's been saying already -- that what drew him to the Church in the first place is how he was inspired by the stories of the suffering of Jews to recognize the universal human story that is the suffering of the black community as well.

Which is also the suffering of poor Mexican immigrants, which is also the suffering of poor people of every color -- not in the same degree of course (he ought make that clear) but still the same human suffering.

The problem with Wright isn't the anger that he's feeling for that suffering, but that he fails to recognize the universality of it.

That's how one trascends race.

And as for how he hasn't severed his ties with Wright his answer ought be even simpler IMO. "You don't abandon a father, you don't abandon a child, no matter how some of their words may appall you".

Instead of disassociating himself from Wright, Obama should make clear there exist ties of love and mutual history that he won't abandon -- he denounces Wright's words, he doesn't throw his loved ones away


by Aris Katsaris on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:01:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

I do like yours better. I just meant to say that he's got to do something in a way that both defends his relationship with his church/pastor while demonstrating that he truly understands that the statements are offensive and why.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:11:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, how to respond (2.00 / 1)

What do you think he should do?

I tend to think that it is too late to respond in a way that will fully extinguish the story;  Obama should have done that before declaring his candidacy.  

If Obama responds directly and specifically to the worst of the pastor's verbiage, countering it point by point, then I think he can say for the rest of the campaign "I addressed that and I'm not going to discuss it further."


by Radiowalla on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:00:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I read your obit at dkos a while back. (2.00 / 1)

Whoever wrote it did a good job but still, I'm happy to see that the rumors turned out to be greatly exaggerated.


by JimR on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:32:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Heh....nt (none / 0)


by Radiowalla on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:07:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (2.00 / 1)

Seems to me he's doing the right thing.  He joined the congregation 20 years ago, that would make him about 27 at the time.  What Wright had to offer may have seemed a good fit when he was a young man.  That's not a surprise.

People keep talking about his association with the church as going against his stated beliefs and the way he is selling himself to the public.  But has he ever, in any of his writings, legislation or speeches given any indication that he shares any of Wright's more inflammatory beliefs?

Obama himself is the best evidence that you can live in a harsh world, with harsh words and come out of undamaged, and even better for it.  If anything, we Democrats should be thankful that we are pretty close to nominating someone that can translate the anger and vitriol of the disenfranchised into a message that a large majority of Americans can get behind.  Ever since we started losing elections, progressives have been wringing their hands about how we need to get better at selling our own ideas to the public.  Obama clearly has a knack for that.  American is ready to embrace a new way to talk about social justice, fairness, and personal responsibility.  That's what he brings, and if he learned it while listening to angry calls for change, it's all the more inspiring that he has chosen another path.

 


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:07:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

The problem is, even if he nailed it, the reach is going to be minuscule compared with the done deal. We have a really big problem here-- there's a reason why the Clinton campaign has gone dark.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:04:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (2.00 / 0)

Exactly.  He is toast.  The videos will not be disappeared.  He should make this speech and then he should look to see about a way to remove himself from the race in a graceful manner.  The longer he prolongs this, the more lasting long term damage he does to his image and to his political career.  You Obama supporters are living in a dream land. And he must not allow Fox to get him in a lie about being in the church at one of the sermons - if that happens, kiss his Senate seat goodbye.


by anya109 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:57:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What NOW? (none / 0)

What, then is to be done? Clinton supports ask Obama to withdraw and vica versa! Clearly neither one is fair or good for the party.  A withdrawl by Obama at this point gives Clinton the nomination without having had the chance to decisively beat him, weakening her nomination/mandate.  Same thing if you try and get Clinton to bow out.

We've been very good in the past with possible solutions or at least level-headed ideas about what might work or not work.  I've not seen much so far.

So HOW do we beat the Swiftboaters!?

A suggestion:

If there were a way to flood the net with more Wright stuff that was more palatable, then people would get a diluted version of the guy.

I first saw the clip where he says no one ever called Hillary a N*, and I have to say that it really didn't affect me (not the same thing as saying I agree with it).  My point is that if anyone can get their hands on more Wright stuff, we can make a concerted effort to "Reverse Google Bomb" the most negative and inflamitory stuff out there.

At the same time we need to focus our efforts not on a weak defensive but on a strong offensive on McCain over the war, economics, etc.

Obama has the skills to dance his way out of this mess and he better because he's still likely to win the nomination.  Don't believe me?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lfw_-F6GR9s

Tell 'em.


$439Billion spent on the US Military and still no universal health care.
by jlars on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 12:47:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (2.00 / 0)

i didn't say "pretend it's not happening." he should be working, instead, on delegitimizing this sort of attack in general. from both sides. from republicans. from whomever. stupid and irrelevant is stupid and irrelevant, and it should be called such and torn to the ground.

there was a time before the iraq invasion when it wasn't seen as being a possible response. the connection between iraq and 9/11 was just to flimsy. it was a bad argument. but then the media started treating invasion of iraq as a legitimate response, as a newsworthy topic, as something that should be debated left and right.....

i don't think jerome's response is the same, but i want to use the parallel to highlight my point; namely, i think it's vital that if we're going to fight against these tactics, if we're going to fight against smear campaigns that keep us preoccupied with blowjobs, land deals, fundraisers, and pastors when these smear jobs campaigns come from the right, we need to change the way smear campaigns are framed.

i don't think it's easy, and trying to do it is not necessarily gonna make it so. but if we have any respect for ourselves and for what bloggers here and at kos and openleft and elsewhere in the left-blogosphere (not to mention media matters!) have been fighting for, we need to fight for legitimate and meaningful political discourse all the time.

let's not be enablers to the debasement of political culture that became the norm during the gingrich years. it's ugly, it's stupid, and frankly, we're not very good at it.


James
by james c on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:10:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

I am pretty much agnostic. I don't see a lot of what you see here. I see basically a blogger who is biased, but not so much that he doesn't see that Obama my be our nominee so he's worried about a legitimate issue. You seem unable to admit that, and deal with its complexity accoridingly.


by bruh21 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:25:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

i'm able to admit that he's worried; i'm unable to see it as a legitimate issue. to me it's not very complex. it's simply not the jerome who wrote CTG with markos.

this is from the website advertising their book:

"the book hails the new movement that is changing the way political campaigns are waged."

my point is simply that if we're going to change the way political campaigns are waged, and if jerome is going to be the standard bearer for that change, it won't be like this.


James
by james c on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:36:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The racial graph (none / 0)

So Axelrod exemplifies how Chapter 4 works?  Have you actually read the book?