The regular offense

Good stuff by Michael Kinsley  that closes...

..Let me be absolutely clear where I stand on all of this. There is no room for sexism in a modern political campaign. There is no room for racism either. There is no room for remarks that could reasonably be interpreted as sexist or racist. In fact, given the history of sexism and racism in this country, there is no room for remarks that could even be willfully misinterpreted as sexist or racist. There is no room for rudeness, or for the appearance of rudeness. There is no room for comments of any sort by anybody a candidate might have met under any circumstances in the course of his or her life, unless they have been vetted for sexism, racism, rudeness, or the appearance of these qualities by the campaign's senior staff. There is no room for unfair accusations that the opposition candidate has engaged in sexist, racist or rude remarks, or that anyone he or she has ever met has engaged in such remarks. And of course there is also no room for perfectly fair accusations of this sort, which can be misinterpreted, and usually are.

Basically, in the modern political campaign, there is no room for remarks of any sort on any subject which could be interpreted as giving offense to anyone, and that covers just about every subject there is. Therefore, my campaign will enter a cone of silence from now until I am sworn in as president next January. And I call upon my distinguished opponent and her campaign to do the same. The stakes in this election are much too high for anyone to say anything.

While I've watched other progressive bloggers out there cry wolf and use the race card, and dealt with the accusations of racism here through banning, its made me wonder, where is this going?

I could have never imagined a couple of years ago, that the 2008 Democratic primary would become so fractured over accusations of racism. Not today's Democratic Party. Maybe it's some sort of karmic due date for the sins of its past, like the 1876 deal between Hayes and southern democrats that ended reconstructions federal presence in the south and re-began black suppression in those states. I don't know, but whatever it is, the accusation has become entrenched in the narrative. And campaigns as they are, once a tactic becomes a well-worn path, it becomes nearly impossible to change the direction.

Of course it cuts the other way as well, which Kinsley has to say, but the charges of sexism have been directed toward the media much more than within, while the accusation of racism have seemed to cut deep into the psyche of the Democratic Party. I would point back to condescending remark framed in electability that said 'her voters will vote for me but mine will not vote for her' as the moment of crystallization, both as a signal to his, and a dismissal of hers [and as pointed out in the comments, this, in context, arguably, wasn't meant to divide, but thats obviously how its been integrated into the narrative of the campaign-- on both sides. Fairly taken as condescending to hers and a signal by his]. It's done nothing but harden since.

Well, since silence isn't an option, why don't the accusers seem to understand how much resentment they are building up within the ranks the Democratic Party? I'm sure someone will take offense of this as some sort of counter-accusation, but it's not that, I think its easy enough to see through the accusations, as they play out in the net, as a tactic being used mostly by upper-class, mostly white, persons as a means of support through attack. I have more general concerns.

If successful for the nomination, how on earth can the accusers be expected to handle themselves in a GE, where voters are even less liberal, less tolerant of the phony racist callouts (or have grown so tired of the wolf calls that the real thing is ignored), and even more likely to resent it come the election?

Update [2008-3-16 23:2:38 by Jerome Armstrong]: I'm sure some of you have additions to The Clinton Rules and The Obama Rules.



Display:


I think it is INCREDIBLY sad (2.00 / 2)

This whole division of our party.  Why does it have to be?

Our party is suppose to be about unity.


by puma on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:01:31 PM EST

Re: I think it is INCREDIBLY sad (none / 0)

Unity? Democrats? Isn't that an oxymoron? The Republicans are usually the Borg party.  


by ineedalife on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:21:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think it is INCREDIBLY sad (none / 0)

It is sad, and it is not up to the pledged delegate leader to withdraw to heal the wounds.  That is the job of the also-ran.


by Carlo on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 04:26:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Obama/Gore: Dream Ticket.


by IsaacM on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:03:25 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (1.83 / 6)

Clinton/Clark: Dream Ticket.


by cc on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:35:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 3)

Clinton /Obama or Obama/Clinton kicking McCain/Generic Republican ass is the dream ticket.


by bruh21 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:37:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

You think Gore shouuld be second to the state senator?

Such "thinking" is just so mind boggling and confusing!


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:07:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

Gore/anyone: dream ticket.

At this point, I just want it to be over!


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:29:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Who exactly are you accusing of accusing others of racism? :-)

Some Obama supporters on this blog have used the race card without thinking about it enough, some Hillary supporters have used racist stereotypes without thinking about it enough. The blame goes both ways and both things are unhelpful. As is your very biased and one-sided opinion on it.

The campaigns, however, only made a few minor mistakes. They handled it pretty well overall, both of them. And they sure will help in the healing process, both of them.


by marcotom on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:07:07 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 4)

The Obama campaign, IMO, started the race baiting after NH, when they released a 4 page memo describing to the media, Clinton's racist remarks.  This was all garbage and then Jesse Jackson Jr. made that despicable Katrina comment.  It was all downhill after that.  The MSM, especially MSNBC and many bloggers, journalists(Dowd, Rich, Robinson, Sullivan) have given journalism a dirty mark by their blatant and vicious sexism and nastiness towards Hillary Clinton.  Many of us took it personally and were further ridiculed by Aravosis, Huffpo, Marshall and Kos when we tried to complain and urge them to stop.  After so much abuse, they will want our support but many of us will stay home.  All of the above have helped destroy the Democratic party, not Hillary.  Hillary will be their excuse because as we all know, the Clintons are to be blamed for everything.  Thanks to all who took part in this destruction.  


by tiffany on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:47:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 2)

this exact same list of "journalists" destroyed Gore.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:09:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

4-page memo? Link? (2.00 / 1)

If so now would be a grand time to dust off that 4-page memo.


by catfish1 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:21:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

I wished that you had included Oprah Winfrey to your list of those who are most responsible for this unbelievable division in the Democratic party these days.  Her T.V. ratings were down 20% in January probably because of her support for Obama, which has upset so many of her female viewers. However, she will continue to count her riches under the next McCain administration with no fear!


by mcctx on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:34:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

you're blaming Oprah??

What did she do, other than endorse and campaign for Obama? It's not like she aired a show bashing Hillary, or made accusations against her. C'mon!


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:30:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 5)

I pointed out that transplanted texans call for Clinton to step aside and become majority was sexist and said they should fight to the end, and was promptly called a racist. Not that I suggested anyone step aside....

So weird. If you don't love Obama, if you don't think he even begins to have the resume for the presidency, if you don't prize going into the convention with an agreement on who the candidate should be, you're racist.

It's thuggery. Third rate romance, low rent rendezvous...


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:07:08 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 0)

How was the call for Hillary to step aside sexist?  You seem to be guilty of the exact same thing you are complaining about... instantly labeling people as racists or sexists if they don't support a certain candidate.

Honestly, I see nothing sexist in the post that you refer to.  What am I missing in that post?


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:12:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

It's sexist because she is better qualified than he for the position of president.  This is what happens to women in the workplace quite a bit - the less qualified (often younger) male gets the promotion over the more qualified woman.


by Montague on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:33:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

No, that's not sexist.  Using every metric we have available to us, Obama is winning this nomination process.  The diarist was simply making the argument that she should consider conceding before things get really ugly and fatally damage both of our candidates.

Hillary's qualifications for the presidency are up for debate, as are Barack's.  Every person here probably has a slightly different way of measuring presidential qualifications.  Your argument seems to really boil down to the "it's her turn" meme, which I completely disagree with.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:40:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

Obama is winning because he had the whole MSM, most A bloggers behind him in what I call a "dirty, despicable and dishonest" primary.  Everything worked in his favor while Hillary was everyone's punching bag.


by tiffany on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:52:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Now you have brought it up (2.00 / 5)

The "it's so-and-so's turn" thing.  Know what I think?  I think it's women's turn to hold the presidency.  Know what else I think?  I think it's black people's turn to hold the presidency.

Now, that said, do I think Hillary deserves to be president?  No, she must earn it.  Do I think Barack deserves to be president?  No, he must earn it.

At this point in time, she has earned it and he has not.  (I realize some people get into the WH without earning it - Chimpy being one example.  Let's leave that aside for now.)

Yes, we can disagree over qualifications, although I firmly believe I'm right.  There is no way, however, that I will back down against an absurd argument that Hillary should drop out to "save" the party or the chance of winning or whatever.  Obama is the one who has made this ugly.  He said he would not run.  He should have gotten more experience in national office.  He would have been well-positioned in a few more years.  But no, he feels entitled to it, he backed down on his word to his constituents, possibly because he figured he could beat "the girl" or maybe because he just didn't think he should have to wait up to eight years, and now Democrats are spending ungodly amounts of money on a primary race.  Hillary has the qualifications and experience, and she signaled long ago that she would run.  We could have had a strongly united party.  (And of course, had Edwards caught fire, that would have worked, too, because he also signaled his intent to run a long while back.)

I have no pity for what Obama is going through.  He put himself, and the Democratic Party, through it.  My biggest concern has always been that McCain would get the Rethug nom.  Now that it has happened, Obama in his hubris will spur the Democrats' loss of the WH this year.


by Montague on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:02:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now you have brought it up (none / 0)

Isn't this the purpose of an election?  If winning an election isn't "earning" the nomination, then maybe we should just give the nomination to whoever's been in congress the longest.  After all, they would've "earned" it more than everybody else, seemingly, by your standard.


by leshrac55 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:06:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Duh, of course (2.00 / 2)

And sometimes, those elections bring us Chimpy.  It's a crap shoot.

Hillary has been consistent for a long while.  I know, understand, and trust her.

Obama's a crap shoot I'm unwilling to take.  


by Montague on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:26:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now you have brought it up (2.00 / 1)

I really appreciate the fact that Hillary supporters won't take calls for her concession lying down.  If the shoe were on the other foot, I would be equally angry by those calls and I totally understand the outrage.

When you complain about him running when he should have put more time in and make comments about him beating "the girl", it really becomes a "it's her turn" argument.  Instead of being about the issues, it becomes about who has put more time in and who is viewed as jumping the line.  I strongly disagree with that argument, and if Barack is as woefully unprepared as some think him to be, Hillary still has a chance to convince the American public.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:10:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now you have brought it up (2.00 / 3)

I knew my comments would bring back that retort.  That's okay; it's reasonable to bring it up.  For Obama, I see a pattern of this.  That's part of my issue with him.  

Again, I don't think it's any specific person's turn, but I do think that the job should go to the most qualified person.  Of course, I also understand that my idea of who is most qualified is not necessarily the same as someone else's.

You are right, Hillary still has a chance, a very good chance, to convince the Democratic public, and eventually the American public, and I believe she will.


by Montague on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:24:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

From what I've heard... (none / 0)

Obama had no intention of running when he first arrived at the Senate. He always thought that would be a decade away.

But when he saw how Washington operated, the lobbyist gravy train of gridlock, and realised that no other major contender (i.e. Hillary) was willing or able to try to break the log-jam, he decided to run.

You may think it was too early, and obviously a lot of people have described his ambition as akin to an uppity 'kid', but there is some merit in his argument.

Whether the high idea survives this fractioning of identity politics is another matter


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:33:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: From what I've heard... (none / 0)

Don't hand that BS out. No one is buying that. he came to DC with every intention of running in his forties. He's no more offended by the gridlock than everyone else is and has shown no more ability to get beyond it than anyone else has.

Post-partisan is triangulation. It's figuring out the angle the lets you get stuff done.


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:49:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If it's down to name calling (none / 0)

BS back. This isn't something I heard about recently, it was from a close friend who worked in the senate with him when he arrived. I think I trust my source better than your prejudice.

But you've got the filters on, and nothing I can say will persuade you otherwise.  


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:59:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Neither of us knows for sure, do we? (2.00 / 2)

We have only his words to go by, and when he won the senate seat, he said he would not run for national office in 2008.

But to think he changed his mind because he saw how Washington operated is wacky.  Come on.  If he suddenly believed that something had to be done about the lobbyist gravy train, he should have endorsed John Edwards.  No other major contender willing to try?  Puh-leeze.

No, I don't think he's an "uppity kid" and those who run for president have to be ambitious.  But he knew full well he would be fighting Hillary on the very ground of identity politics.


by Montague on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:49:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Errrm (none / 0)

...haven't you noticed that he has been as diligent as Edwards in avoiding lobbyist money, funding himself from small donations?

And perhaps he figured Edwards wouldn't have gathered as much support as he did. And didn't Iowa and New Hampshire prove him right?

From your response I'm assuming you're an Edwards supporter then.


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:03:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I know what he said then... (none / 0)

...and perhaps he figured Edwards wouldn't be able to defeat Hillary. After Iowa and New Hampshire you'd have to say he was right.

The machine is broke. This is the platform he stands on. You can accuse him of bad faith, but it still leaves you with the question - what's Hillary's take on these issues. I can't even accuse of her bad faith on them, because she seems to have no message at all except 'I can make the machine run better',


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:06:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Government IS a machine (none / 0)

A different type at different times.  Currently it's flawed, not broken.  Since it's not THE most important issue facing us, I'll vote based on other issues.

You definitely have a dog in this race, even though you can't vote.  I guess that's no different than when I read up on British politics and like or dislike certain politicians.  I realize y'all hate Blair by now but you have to admit - the man was entertaining and intelligent in those Prime Minister's questions sessions.  Unlike the total embarrassment Bush Junior, whom I can't even look at.


by Montague on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:32:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

When you're in the 51st State... (none / 0)

...of course a lot of Brits have a dog in this race. In many respects our economics tracks yours, though that may change the more we integrate in Europe. Our cultural and identity politics is certainly much closer to yours than any other European country.

And I was for Blair before I was against him, campaigned hard for many years in the Labour party. After much debate I eventually trusted him on Iraq and his relationship with the US, and I don't think I've ever felt so betrayed or let down by a politician.

Now we're heavily dependent on US actions in both Afghanistan and Iraq. British soldiers die there weekly too. My neighbourhood has many refugees from Iraq, and Kosovo, and Bosnia

You bet I have a dog in that fight.


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:50:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When you're in the 51st State... (none / 0)

Believe me, I feel guilty towards other countries when my own country does things that affect them in dreadful ways.  I don't especially enjoy having been born a citizen of the most powerful country on the planet.  I've joined in online apologies to the world on behalf of American citizens.  When I speak with people from other countries about politics, I am very forthright about America's politics.

I knew from the start that the Iraq invasion was wrong and would be very bad.  But so many Democrats voted for it that I can hardly disavow them all over this one issue.  There is no fear in my mind that Hillary would start more wars, just as I knew Kerry would have started no wars.  Because Obama spoke against it when he didn't have to cast a vote does not make me think his judgement is fabulous.  In this one situation, it was better than the judgement o Clinton, Kerry, Edwards and a host of others.  But in fact I believe strongly that Obama would have voted for it, had he been in the Senate at the time, for political reasons.  (I acknowledge that I could be wrong.)  So I need to look well beyond the Iraq war in choosing my candidate.  I believe that any Democratic president will work to ameliorate that nightmare, to the extent it CAN be ameliorated.

I totally lost respect for Blair when he became the lap dog of such an inferior homo sapiens as Bush.


by Montague on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 03:06:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now you have brought it up (none / 0)

First of all, if "experience" is the only criteria, I think they both should kindly step aside so that Senator Biden can finally get his chance.

Ridiculous, no?

Was Bill Clinton the most experienced when he knocked Tsongas and Jerry Brown? Not really. Dukakis  over guys like Paul Simon, Gary Hart and Dick Gephardt? No.

For years and years, we've been tossing aside more experienced candidates in favor of ones who bring other qualities to the table. I honestly don't understand why it's so different for Hillary.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:37:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now you have brought it up (none / 0)

What's different this time is that our country is falling apart at the seams, and it will require rapid, definitive action to right the ship.  (And that's before we even take global warming into account.)

We need someone who can get in there, get into the details, and fix problems, fast.


by joanneleon on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:19:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now you have brought it up (none / 0)

And I agree that Hillary could do that. However, I also believe Obama could do it, as well.

I respect your statement, but if that's the only basis for why experience should trump all this year, you have to realize that it's subjective. Reasonable people will disagree. I was joking before, but heck, a Biden supporter really could make that same argument.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:43:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Yes, he HAS been. But the slow-motion train wreck is now in progress. He would lose Ohio, Florida, Arkansas, and California to McCain. There's no chance he gets the nomination after Rev. Horton Hate blow up


by JFK464 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:32:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Of those four states, he would lose Arkansas to McCain. Florida is a tossup. Ohio goes Democrat with either Clinton or Obama; they poll exactly even there vs. McCain. California goes very Democrat.

Obama has a shot at Texas vs. McCain. Clinton has already said she would write it off. Obama has a shot at 2/3 of the states west of the Mississippi; Clinton probably has a shot at 5 of so or them.


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:13:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Do you not understand that those not supporting Clinton don't agree that she is in fact "better qualified?"  

That if indeed the critical tasks of the next Democratic President will be passing life-changing legislation and re-imagining US foreign policy, she may be unqualified?

Claiming that she is "better qualified" isn't an argument.  It is a conclusion.


by SKI on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:44:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

Sorry - there is simply no criteria by which he's as well qualified. You may like him better, but he has one paltrey resume for the job. Go ahead - point out another candidate who made it to the final tier of the race when their only high office experience was three years in the senate. If you can't do it, then he isn't as qualified as she is.


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

First, if the criteria is ability to inspire and mobilize the population (the "Reagan model"), he is clearly more qualified than her.    

Second, I don't rate Presidential candidates solely on who has the longer resume in Washington, D.C. - and I presume that, your bellicose attiitude aside, you don't either (or you would have to support McCain over Clinton).

Third, Obama has more experience than 3 years in the Senate.  Surely if Clinton can claim 35 years (dating back to her graduation from law school), Obama can claim 20+ (dating back to his work as a community organizer).

Fourth, given that neither have actually held the job, neither have direct experience.  thus the question becomes who has demonstrated the qualities that indicate that they are more likely to do the job best.  At that point, it turns on what are the qualities we want in the Oval Office.  I'd suggest the list include: Judgement, Temperament, Vision, Management, Ability to Inspire.  Taking each in turn:

Judgement: In foreign policy, I'll take Obama (Iraq, Pakistan, greater focus on soft-power).  Domestically, with similar positions on virtually all issues, it is an extremely close-call policy-wise.  Two significant black marks against Clinton for me is (a) the 1993 Health Care debacle and, relatedly to me, (b) her penchant for secrecy and lack of transparency.

Temperament:  Difficult to assess given the media-filter but I side towards Obama as he seems less often rattled than Clinton.

Vision:  I put a tremendous weight in Obama's vision of transparency in Government - an issue he has focused on for years and years.  If I had to ascribe a "vision" to Clinton it would be Universal Health Care, a commendable focus but not a differentiating factor as both (a) want it but (b) are proposing plans that will fall short (and Obama's is, IMO, more likely to be achievable in its current form.  

Management:  Obama by a mile based on the comparison of their campaigns - the single biggest enterprise either has run.

Ability to Inspire:  This is a huge aspect for me.  For the past 30 years, the Republicans have dominated the debate and have used framing far more effectively on the "BIG" themes.  While the old saw suggests that you campaign in poetry and govern in prose (and therefore poetry don't have a place after the campaign), I don't think that is quite right. To be successful, a President needs both always.  I haven't yet seen Clinton give a speech that captures the imagination.  (If you can point to one, please do so, I'll be glad to reconsider). Obama truly is amazing at this aspect. It isn't just "giving a speech,"  it is a fundamental requirement to change the existing Memes (which haven't changed since Regan).  Bill, for all his abilities as a politician, never tried to change the context of the issues, choosing instead to frame individual policies inside Regan's context (e.g., "The era of big government ios over.")

That is how I measure "qualifications".  How do you?


by SKI on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:46:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

I look Obama and his wife and I see  circus barkers - nothing more. tin ear for foreign policy, insubstantial and full of hype. There is no such as post-partisan and there won't be until people are robots.


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:03:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Then that's your bias. Over one half of the voters in Democratic primaries thus far, and even more counting caucus voters, do not agree with you.

Your opinion is not automatically more correct or valid because you believe it.


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:14:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Then we're clear (2.00 / 1)

I said it as a conclusion, not an argument.  


by Montague on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:04:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Then we're clear (none / 0)

A conclusion with no evidence provided in support indicates either that you can't support it or aren't interested in trying to convince listeners but simply want to vent.  Which is it?


by SKI on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:48:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I just want to make you squirm (none / 0)

in annoyance.  Because I'm like that. :)

And after the DailyBarackos breakdown, I'm tired of typing it all out yet again.  I see you are not.  Good for you.  Carry on.


by Montague on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:51:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just want to make you squirm (none / 0)

Less a squirm, more a convulsion.  ;-)

I'm probably more willing because I so rarely get the chance to spend the significant amount of time required to have such "discussions" and, are therefore less burned out.

The lack of attempts to persuade are a horrific sign. Perhaps better (or not), the lack of basic logic among some of the posts which purport to persuade is similarly frightening.  People who have demonstrated superior abilities in the past are now demonstrating school-yard style limitations.  

I'd suggest that many of the posters need to take a day (or 12) off and get some perspective.  I'd kinda hoped that the 6 week "break" before PA would help but it may have come too late.


by SKI on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:01:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just want to make you squirm (none / 0)

The problem may have been too many attempts to persuade over the past two months, and the fact that almost no one on the other side paid attention.  Instead it always devolved into snarkage.  Sad.  I agree that it's better to keep trying to argue on the merits.  That's why I said "carry on."  Good on ya for doing it.


by Montague on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:09:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just want to make you squirm (none / 0)

Ooh! Metaphore!

You've been trying to pursuade for 2 months. It hasn't worked. Is the fault:

Yours, for not making a pursuasive argument?
The other side's, for not listening to what you think is a pursuasive argument?

Answer: Doesn't matter! You didn't pursuade. And neither did Clinton. Obama, on the other hand, forty points behind Hillary in November, DID pursuade, and now leads in every metric.

So! You're tired of making your case to people who obstinantly keep thinking differently than you. Fine. But you, like Hillary, need to get over it and move on so that we can concentrate on FIXING the country rather than RUINING our best chance -- crap shoot or no -- to fix it. That chance is no longer Hillary, and it'll never be McCain.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:33:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just want to make you squirm (none / 0)

Oh, you have so changed my mind with your deep and thoughtful argument.  Wow, 40 points behind in a poll - before any voting; gee, I guess we have President Dean?  Wow, McCain was left for dead - and Giuliani is now the Repub nominee - oh wait, that didn't happen.  

Since there are several more contests still to go,  why don't we see what happens? Are you afraid that Obama will lose? Could it be that the revelations on Obama that are currently out there and those to come, have you running scared?  Or, are you just one of those that want to win at any cost?  Because the race is essentially tied (neither can get that magic number).  And a deeply flawed delegate selection process, which has the "leader" with an approx. 100+ delegate lead and a 90% "demographic"  going in one direction (uh oh, I think I might be called a racist for mentioning the elephant in the room) and a disingenuous strategy to get "Democrats for Day" is not a very convincing argument.  The SDs are the deciders barring a collapse of one of the candidates. That is their role.  And I hope that they actually lead and not do the craven thing and go with the "pledged delegates" crap that Nancy (impeachment is off the table) Pelosi (Obama backer in the closet) opines.

So, move on yourself and get over your own self
importance and let the contest continue.  Lots of Democrats still want to have a say in this.


by anya109 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 04:58:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I just want to make you squirm (none / 0)

The contest will continue, certainly, and I'm not worried about Obama losing -- the math is in his favor and, if Iowa last week was any measure, Clinton's attempts to ruin Obama and turn his supporters into hers have not succeeded. Rather gone in reverse, I'd say.

I liked Hillary. LOVED Hillary. Loved the Clintons. Have my pic of me with 'em both framed in the living room.

But do you see the holes in your post? I mean, you bring up race (the 90% demographic, elephant in the room, etc.) as if that is the only measure of Obama's support (and Hillary's among white women isn't?) Is that racist? No, but you might want to do a self-eval why that was one of your main issues here.

Do you see how complaining about the unfair "system," while holding hope that SD "deciders" will save the day? You can't pick and choose from the 'system,' and there's no question the 'system' just gets wierder once we leave the nomination process.

Do you see how complaining about "Democrats for a Day" with Obama is a titch zany when Clinton owes what little triumph is left in Texas to the GOP and Limbaugh?

Yes, Obama has a 100+ delegate lead... and yes, if he's hit by a meteor, Hillary can still pull this out, but it's increasingly unlikely. So the question is, how will the campaign continue? More hateful invective? Or just support for the candidate and some respectful cross-party disagreements?

Here's a hint -- that "elephant in the room?" It only helps the GOP and lots of bigots feel justified in their bigotry. There are lots of other demographics at play.

I think Hillary LOST this election. It was hers, she lost it as truly as Giuliani did, although she held on longer. You can't lose 12 contests or so and expect the nomination to still favor you.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 05:30:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

There are a lot of reasons not to want Clinton as the nominee.  People should really come to terms with that, instead of relying on verbal jujitsu to paint everyone that doesn't like her as sexist.

Sexism is the least of her worries.


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:51:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 2)

Actually, it's the biggest hurdle she faces  by far. She's a superb candidate with a great resume, and the most progressive platform. She's as brilliant as anyone who has served in that office, impeccably well-informed, tenacious and a relentless worker.

The big problem is sexism and the degree to which people don't recognize it because they take their own bigotry for granted.


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:01:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

You are calling a Goldwater Girl progressive?  That's classic!!  What great resume does she have?  On the board of anti-union Wal-Mart?  Having scum like Mark Penn run her campaign?


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:14:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Given that Clinton has a 48% negative rating, you probably won't be surprised that a boat load of people don't agree with your description of Clinton.  Myself included.  And it has nothing to do with her gender.


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:17:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The big problem is sexism (2.00 / 3)

OK. That's a point of view. Another point of view: the big problem is racism. That's the debate you were eventually bound to have with two such candidates, and it's obviously overdue.

On the adds to the right of the blog, MSNBC is leading with the headline "Democrats divised by race, sex". That could probably be said for the entire nation, and not only the US.

Many of my friends think that 'sexism is the big problem'... though they nearly all happen to be women. Many of my other friends, male and female, black or white, would say racism is a bigger problem. It's as simple as that in some ways. But then we're into competing problems, competing victimhoods, and nothing happens. It reminds me of some of my madder armenian relatives who are anti semitic because the 'jews took attention away from our holocaust'.

This is impasse victimhood goes down. A female president could enact legislation and economic change to help heal racial divides. A male president could help the role of women. It comes down to policies, character, support, and not just the identity of the president


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:22:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The big problem is sexism (2.00 / 2)

If wer're going to go down this road, we should at least put in its proper context.  After fighting Clinton to a tie on Super Tuesday, and after putting together 10 straight primary wins in February, Obama abandoned the fight against Clinton and began pivoting towards a campaign against McCain.  Clinton's only way back in the race was to kneecap Obama, which she did, with the help of the conservatives in Canada and through her own words when she proclaimed that she and McCain had what it took to be Comander-in-Chief, and Obama did not.  None of these actions were colored by race or gender issues.  Clinton was taking the actions that she felt would put her back into contention for the nomination.

Everything that has happened since, has been a result of that strategy.  Power calling Clinton a monster, Ferraro claiming that Obama had an unfair advantage in the primary because of his race.

All of these attacks and counterattacks were initiated by Clinton's need to tear Obama down.  I'm not saying it's wrong.  That's what she needed to do to win.  But we should at least be clear about how we got here.  Obama was perfectly happy to leave Clinton alone and go after McCain.  Clinton went after him, and in her effort to diminish him, she opened up a pandora's box in the heart of the activist democratic base.


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:39:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I happen to think you're right but... (2.00 / 1)

 I was very close to the Nafta/Monster moment and that's how it happened, but accusing the other side of 'having started it' won't help put those demons back in the box.


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:51:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I happen to think you're right but... (2.00 / 1)

Agreed.  My point was that democrats are attacking eachother over petty issues right now.  This was a campaign focused on issues, experience and judgment.  Race and gender issues are not what threw this campaign off track, it's simply the result of more substantial fight that already took place between the campaigns themselves.


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:01:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

She's a charter member of the DLC, a former board member of the most anti-labor corporation in the US, has only 7 years in elected office herself, and has extremely high negatives with independants and republicans.

See, a bunch of valid reasons for not wanting her as the nominee that have nothing to do with her gender.


by APoxOnBoth on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:35:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

I'm really tired of the sexism claims. I am a feminist and a woman and I work with a lot of feminist, women and most of us support Obama.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:19:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

To be fair, I don't feel that there is as much pressure as women to support the female candidate. Not so sure for AA--ask John Lewis to expound on that in a few years.  It is going to make a helluva chapter in his memoir.

I have many feminist friends and we are all in the tank for Hillary. Doesn't make us racists.

I think the problems of gender and racial politics are uglier among the elite though.. the media continues to kowtow to racial claims while debunking  sexist ones--I think that is a double standard. Don't even get me started on the derision women and AA are getting for supporting a candidate because they look like them..  I think that much of this is exposing problems in the political media as well as the need by liberals to feel politically correct.


by hctb on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 05:56:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

So all of the women who have voted for Obama (a very considerable number); those who have organized and campaigned for him, donated and phonebanked... all sexists?

And you think Obama plays the race card?

There are many, many reasons one might prefer Obama to Clinton without one being a sexist. There are even a number of reasons that one might consider Obama more qualified for the office of the Presidency, as opposed to the winner of a debating contest over experience. The office of the President of the United States is not solely about experience.

If it were, George H.W. Bush should have won over both Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton, and easily.

Obama is also as brilliant as anyone who's served in that office; someone Lawrence Tribe describes as the brightest law student he has ever known is by no stretch of the imagination anything but brilliant. Obama is also a superb candidate with a great resume. He also has an outstanding progressive platform. He is also impeccably well-informed, tenacious and a relentless worker. I really see no difference between them on those qualifications, or rather a series of small differences that, combined, add up to essentially no difference.

Both Obama and Hillary Clinton far exceed Bill Clinton's level of experience and qualifications upon entering the White House. For me, that takes the issue of experience essentially off the table; they are both qualified plenty enough.

Therefore I need to make the decision on other grounds. I happen to think Obama is much more what I want in a President than Clinton. That's not a sexist statement; it would be the same if he were Barackette Obama and she were Harold Clinton.


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:22:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In point of fact, Hillary relies (2.00 / 1)

not on calls of sexism but on her resume, her platform, her experience, and more.

I will call racism by its name when I see it, and sexism by its name when I see it.  Because I say it does not mean that the candidate is saying it or relying on it.

Neither one of them can afford to play the victim and expect to win in the GE.


by Montague on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:06:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

wow thats a lot BS (2.00 / 1)

so basically you are saying the millions voters who are propelling Obama ahead of Clinton are all sexist.

And if we dare to say that being behind in delegates, popular vote, states is a reason for her to drop out, we gomnna call sexist.

You REALLY need to take stock of your values.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:06:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 2)

How was the call for Hillary to step aside sexist?

This is a problem. That you don't even understand how offensive the call to step aside was to Clinton supporters. That is a huge problem.


by cc on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:37:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

I do understand how Hillary's supporters would be offended by calls for her to drop out of the race.  I honestly do, and as an Obama supporter I feel that Hillary has every right to stay in this as long as she thinks she has a chance.  The math looks bad for her right now, but she DOES still have a chance at this thing.  My point is that simply calling for the opposing candidate to drop out doesn't instantly make one a sexist/racist bigot.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:43:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 2)

Asking a woman to step down who may still very well win, just to avoid a continued fight is sexist. Obama has no more claim to the nomination than she does at this point. Factoring in Florida and Michigan, she has more popular votes than he does and he's not doing well as she is in the states we need to win.

So asking a woman to step down from a race just so the guy doesn't have to fight to end is sexism - pure and simple.

And it's mindboggling how many Democrats don't recognize it.


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:05:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

lets put it that way (none / 0)

it has nothing to do with location of the genetalia.

It has everything to do with Hillary losses.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lets put it that way (none / 0)

Thank you!  Much more clear and concise than I would have been.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:11:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

Asking a woman to step down who may still very well win, just to avoid a continued fight is sexist.

THIS is the problem.  It's NOT sexist.  I called for her to drop out (check my diary), and it had absolutely nothing to do with her sex.  

It had everything to do with the math, her lack of a legitimate path to the nomination, and the fact that she was heading pretty negative.  I'd love for there to be a woman President.  My problems with Hillary are about her political opportunism and her intellectual dishonesty.

Look, the Obama supporters yell "racist!" constantly when I don't see anything racist.  The Clinton supporters yell "sexist!" constantly when I don't see anything sexist.

The number of actual racially-tinged things in the race are tiny -- Bill's dismissal of Obama's SC win.  Ferarro's comments.  And that's about it.  I don't see the 3am ad being racist at all, for example.

We need to start looking at those that support other candidates with a little good faith, and not assume that their preferences are due to sexism and racism.  That's insulting to both of us, and to the Democratic party as a whole.


by EvilCornbread on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:25:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

"Obama has no more claim to the nomination than she does at this point. Factoring in Florida and Michigan, she has more popular votes than he does"

Wrong. Even if you factor in the race of Michigan where she was in the ballot and he wasn't, she is still behind on popular vote actually.


by Aris Katsaris on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:16:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

No, factoring in Michigan and Florida, she does not have more popular votes than he does. That is factually incorrect. Obama is ahead by over 100,000 votes, and that's without counting uncounted caucus voters in 4 states.

That is simply factually incorrect. Opinion does not enter into it.

According to all the polling data, Obama is also running just as strongly in most of the states we need to win, and stronger in many others we also need to win. While I recognize you may disagree that he is, in fact, doing so, the polling data is clear, and you are arguing personal opinion versus what the voters of those states actually say.

Asking the person who is behind in the race to take an extremely important government position so that the party can close ranks and win the General Election is not automatically sexist. It may, or may not, be premature, and you're welcome to argue that. But it is in no way automatically sexist.

If it were, the notion of floating the VP job for Obama -- by a second-place candidate behind on every measure -- would obviously be even more of a racist move. I don't recall anyone -- Obama, his campaign, supporters, anyone at all -- ever claiming that it was racist. That's absolutely absurd.

But if it's sexist to think that the second-place contender in a tight race, one with very little (not none, but very little) change of winning a legitimate victory (defined as a preponderance of states won, pledged delegates one, and popular vote, though I find it hard to find a scenario where she could win any of them), might accept a very powerful, prestigious office to bring the party together and accomplish the shared goals of both campaigns (which, remember, are very close on the issues) -- if that's inherently sexist, if that's asking the woman to stand aside so the man can get the job, then how can the second-place challenger proposing that the first-place leader, with clear and difficult to overcome leads in all categories of measure, step aside to take a much less powerful, much less prestigious position be considered anything other than a white person telling a black person, sorry, sure you're ahead, but step aside, I'm white and you're not and I'm entitled and you're not, so just take this consolation prize and go aside, there's a good fellow?

If the one is sexist, the other is even more racist. You can't have it both ways. And the Senate Majority Leader was just floated by some well-intentioned blogger; the VP idea was floated by the candidate and her campaign themselves.

Surely you can see the astounding level of hypocrisy in considering a perceived slight against one candidate to be clearly sexist, while an even greater slight against the other, both in terms of their standing in the race and the position offered, to be no big deal?


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:34:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Offensive.... (2.00 / 1)

...isn't the same as sexist or racist.

I'm not sure about US Law, but in the UK discrimination on the grounds of race or gender is illegal. Offensiveness is another issue. I find Barbeques, Big Baby Buggies and many other things beginning with B highly offensive. But I can't ban it.

Personally, I really don't see how Transplanted Texan's post is offensive since it recognises Hillary's many talents. But if not supporting either candidate for the nomination is offensive then politics as such stops, because one can't have a reasoned debate.


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:44:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

Calling for Clinton to become Senate Majority Leader (if it is a possibility is in no way sexist.) It is also a good idea FOR the Democratic Party. She would be an amazing Majority Leader (and an amazing President.) It is a good idea, although there are other good ideas (some might be better even.)

You saying they should fight to the end is not racist. It is, however, incredibly foolish. If they fight to the end it has to continue to be a FIGHT. IF we are fighting ourselves we do not have time to fight the opposition, and indeed we might not have any strength left to do so either.

If you think a convention fight is a good idea you should look at the history of modern convention fights. They ALWAYS nominate the eventual loser of the General Election.

So know, I don't think you are a racist. I just think you are failing to think straight.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:13:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I read that exchange... You're crying wolf... (2.00 / 1)

Transplanted Texan said this (I actually copied it half an hour back because his response was so good)

"You're accusing me of sexism? Well in that case, I accuse you of racism. It's only fair, right? I mean, if the only possible reason for someone to not support Clinton is her gender, then the only possible reason for someone to not support Obama must be his race! The logic's all there!"

Is it just me, or has everyone else had an irony bypass? He was clearly refuting this identity politics namecalling.

And it's neither sexist nor racist to point out that you are unfairly maligning him.


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:25:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I read that exchange... You're crying wolf... (2.00 / 1)

The problem being his post was sexist. He's calling on a woman to step down and support a clearly inferior male candidate (who can't win either) and take an inferior position - as opposed to letting the majority of voters pick their candidate. TT is terrified fo the race not being settled therefore a woman must sacrifice her ambition for no reason other than he thinks she'd be better at the inferior position. Fuck that. Women have earned the right to the race. We're the majority of the electorate, and we are the most reliable voters and volunteers. I've worked on many campaigns where almost the entire volunteer staff was female with the paid positions going to men. Women have earned the right to this race. And to suggest that she step down so Obama can sail to the nomination is sexism.

If TT wants to leave this part of the campaign behind, then he needs to pressure his own candidate to step down. But calling on a female candidate to step down for the sake of comity is the sort of bullshit women have been forced to buckle under to for ages. If Clinton was successfullly forced from the race, it would be bad for the Democrtic party. It would split women off and if women don't vote, Dems don't win.


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:54:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I read that exchange... You're crying wolf... (2.00 / 0)

He's not the "inferior" candidate if he's winning both the delegate/popular vote counts.  You may think he's the inferior candidate in general, but that is your opinion and of no relevance to the diary you are referencing.

The original diary was asking for her to concede because she is losing the nomination process, not because the diarist thinks that women are less competent as commander in chief.  You are guilty of the same thing that you are charging others with.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:58:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I read that exchange... You're crying wolf... (2.00 / 2)

Ahhh, no, he's asking her to step down for the party's sake so that there isn't a battle. That's sexist and nothing but sexist. And you saying it isn't, doesn't make it so.

Hillary Clinton and the women of this nation have earned the right for Hillary to fight to the end. And if she is forced from the race, it'll be even worse for the party because it will split women off.

I don't give a flying fuck about party unity when it involves the best candidate of my lifetime being asked to step aside so boys can feel good about her. Hate her all you want. But she's in  the race to stay because everyone knows she's the better candidate. And if she wasn't, TT wouldn't want her to drop out.


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:10:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I read that exchange... You're crying wolf... (none / 0)

Let's explore this for a moment: What would be sufficient cause for Hillary to drop out?  If it were absolutely irrefutable that she was damaging the party, should she continue?  What if there was absolutely no chance she could win the General?

We owe women their candidate?  If she gets the nomination and loses, is the debt still paid?


by APoxOnBoth on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:14:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I read that exchange... You're crying wolf... (2.00 / 0)

I have never expressed any hatred towards Hillary, nor do I think that she should drop out when she still has a shot at the nomination.  My point was that just because someone asks a politician to bow out doesn't mean they have racist/sexist/ageist/whatever-ist motives.

Asking Hillary to bow out because her vote totals don't look good is a lot different than asking her to bow out because she has a vagina and makes men uncomfortable.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:15:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I read that exchange... You're crying wolf... (none / 0)

Ahhh, no, he's asking her to step down for the party's sake so that there isn't a battle. That's sexist and nothing but sexist.

How can someone type something like this?  I just don't get it.

Please explain why asking her to step down for the good of the party is sexist.  Please explain how her sex plays into that AT ALL.


by EvilCornbread on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:29:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I read that exchange... You're crying wolf... (2.00 / 0)

I understand how you feel- and yes Hillary is a fantastic candidate who just happened to run at the wrong time.

Also, there is a world of difference between having earned the right to fight to the end and it being a good idea. She has earned that right and then some, if she chooses too. However, if "everyone knew she was the better candidate," than everyone would be voting for and that is not the case.

I would be VERY proud to vote for her in the General Election if she were the nominee and I would be equally proud to vote for Obama. They are both good Democrats who will make excellent Presidents. This isn't about boys versus girls, and the fact that you think it is tells me you are blinded by what you wish to be true.

Also, for the record I would equally support a deal that gave her the nomination and put Obama in the VP slot (which is a step down from Majority Leader in terms of political power, but does put him in a good position to be "next" after her Presidency.) My opinion is that I want them to make a deal that is good for both candidates and the party REGARDLESS of what the deal is and who gets the nomination.

At anyrate, you should stop screaming sexism it is absurd. The race is about a lot more than that and you SHOULD know that.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:26:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I read that exchange... You're crying wolf... (none / 0)

"Stepping down" or "stepping aside" would imply that she's in the first place. Which she is not.

"Everyone knows she's the better candidate"? The vote indicates otherwise.


by Aris Katsaris on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 04:31:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I read that exchange... You're crying wolf... (none / 0)

And hence the appeal to identity politics.  It is normal in a primary race, when it has reached the stage of damaging the party, that the candidate who is behind steps out.  Obama is not behind.  He's never been behind.  Even in the Hillary campaign's rosiest scenarios, he's not going to be behind short of killing and eating a kitten on live television.

It's not "Hillary's turn" to have the nomination.  Women have not "earned the right" to choose our nominee.  Nor have blacks, asians, men, or transgendered philipino midgets.  That's not how it works.

To suggest that Obama should leave the race and accept a VP position when he's been winning by every measure is not racism, just farcical.  To suggest Hillary should step down when she's losing by every reasonable measure and has no credible route to the nomination is not sexist, just obvious.


by APoxOnBoth on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:02:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I read that exchange... You're crying wolf... (2.00 / 1)

Awww, boy, you don't like it when people make suggestions about Obama, do you? I will point out that it wasn't Hillary suggestion - it was the reporter who asked her and she simply responded that it may be headed in that direction.

But yes, women have earned the right to this race. I notice you didn't have the minimal level of integrity to quote accurately because, of course, that' would a fly in your ointment.

yes, women have earned this. We've earned the right to have Hillary stick in the race until it's done, and to force her out before hand would be tremendously damaging to the Democratic because women are the biggest block of Democratic voters.

yes, we've earned this - whether you like it or not.


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:13:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I read that exchange... You're crying wolf... (none / 0)

Ahh.  So Hillary is entitled to this nomination.  Any process that denies it to her is unfair on its face, by the simple proof that it was denied to her?


by APoxOnBoth on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:17:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I read that exchange... You're crying wolf... (2.00 / 0)

I'm a woman who is appalled by your comment.  

She EARNS the nomination by getting people to vote for her.  


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:22:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I read that exchange... You're crying wolf... (none / 0)

I don't think it's sexist to call for HRC to drop out and become Senate Majority leader. I do not believe she should drop out, however. There are so many ways to look at the primary results thus far, and many analyses make a legitimate argument that Clinton is the stronger candidate. I believe that as well. I also think that minimizing the effect that the Wright factor would have in the GE is a huge mistake. I am not going to argue about what Wright said and whether it is justified or not (except for that line about Bill Clinton "riding dirty" - sorry, there's no meta-analysis to excuse that one), but I will say that the majority of the American electorate simply will not accept a candidate associated with those beliefs.

Particularly a candidate whose strength supposedly is his ability to bring us together.

If Obama is the nominee, McCain and the Republicans will beat this drum until it drowns out all other argument.


by OtherLisa on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:04:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I read that exchange... You're crying wolf... (none / 0)

It's a fair enough argument, but the general public doesn't really seem to care much (the story is already dropping out of the cycle), and if they do start beating that drum, it puts Hagee and Parsley in play.  And for the hateful and crazy, they're way out ahead of Wright.


by APoxOnBoth on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 01:21:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But remember... (none / 0)

IOKIYAR.

And I think from what I know about McCain's association with those guys, it's not a 20 year continuous relationship.

Before I had thought that Obama's biggest weakness as a GE candidate against McCain was the "experience" factor. Add the Wright factor - against a war hero - I don't think Obama has a very good chance at all.


by OtherLisa on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:11:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course women have won the right (none / 0)

...to be in the race. But they've also won the right to lose that race as well, on their own merits, rather than just their gender. That's what equality means, surely?

Hillary is currently losing, though not for lack of trying. TT's suggestion - that she took up one of the highest possible other political posts is hardly asking her to do the ironing.


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:05:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Wow, how stupid of you to bring this up, as it is so easy for everybody to check your phony charge!


by marcotom on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:26:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

and also proof that self-censoring does not work here anymore, because all Obama supporters have been stripped of their rights to give out troll-ratings.


by marcotom on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:30:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

That cuts both ways.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:30:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Jerome

Since little otter so patently misrepresented transplanted texan - I am allowed to troll her, right?

Not because I disagree with her opinion, but because she's misquoting him.


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:34:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

How can I interpret that?

I don't see many level-headed comments uprated anymore. What is uprated though is the most biased and one-sided Obama hate comments. Sorry to tell you, but there is something going wrong here. You should know that as well as I do.


by marcotom on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:34:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

Well, I guess the "something has gone wrong here" is sorta relative, given the content of the post and all its context. It's been worse a system, I guess.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:39:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

No kidding. I rated a couple threads about a week ago. Now, surprise surprise, I can't rate anymore. Guess I must've been rating for the wrong side, huh?


by taradinoc on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:04:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Empty accusation, sorry.


by marcotom on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:35:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Against Obama you do them every day, but that's besides the point. You should not be troll-rated for stating your opinions, fair enough.


by marcotom on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:47:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

The FullBerry is a very blatant Obama TRer. :)
I sometimes feel like I am just going around after him/her mojoing.

S/he has it out for Alegre, too.

I actually posted: can you be troll rated on your own diary?  I am a relative newcomer, but this smacks of injustice!


by hctb on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:25:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

That gets to the problem. We've a different standard of ranking here. If it's about a candidate, its fair game. Only when its namecalling or whatever ill against another user here should it be ranked down.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:37:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 0)

That is fine with me. I lost my ranking ability on my first day here and maybe even rated a comment the wrong way, I don't remember.

But what is at issue here is who gets uprated and who doesn't. Level-headed comments don't get uprated much, pro-Obama comments neither. Anti-Obama comments, however, get all the praise. The same applies to diaries, obviously. This leads to a very divisive atmosphere.


by marcotom on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:44:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Nonetheless, Jerome, there does seem to be an organized campaign of recommendation, uprating, and troll rating, with an eye towards gaming the system and pushing out those favorable to Obama.  I would point to the near-complete dominance of the Recommended Diaries list by pro-Clinton and/or anti-Obama diaries, and a pattern of troll/hide-rating of pro-Obama comments in those diaries.

It doesn't happen much in the front page postings, but it's getting really ugly in the diaries.


by APoxOnBoth on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:09:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

A serious question: If someone deliberately misinterprets someone else's posting, and uses that misinterpretation to claim sexism (or racism, or anything else) on the part of the original poster, is that worthy of a troll rating? Is that justifiable?

Because I see one poster in this thread as having done exactly that. It's passed out of candidate advocacy and even bashing of the opponent into a simple stream of accusations that every person who differs in any way with their views is sexist or a thug.

I don't even consider rating anyone as a troll lightly. I'm pretty new here (not as new as my UID, I was a lurker for quite a while), and I've never done it. But by what you've said, Jerome, it seems to me that comments of that sort would be a justifiable and worthy troll rating. I still wouldn't do it unless it were agreed upon first -- I not very comfortable with the idea of silencing debate, and I've had posts troll rated that I don't consider to have been in any way trolling, and it hurt.

But taking a thread about the importance of using the terms 'racist' and 'sexist' and accusing anyone who disagrees, or proposes any sort of solution, or anyone who supports the other candidate, to be sexist... that seems to meet your grounds for a troll rating. So I'd like to know if that would be a fair use of the rating or not.


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:46:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We have been divided because (2.00 / 2)

because both candidates, to one extent or another, have decided they are more important than the party, their campaigns are running an all or nothing strategy and their supporters are following suit.

Many Clinton supporters on this site have made it clear that they will never vote for Obama under any circumstances (a.) I do not believe them and b.) they are often the same people who called out Obama supporters for making the same threat a couple of months back.)

And I know I am going to get a bunch of responses about how Obama supporters are even worse. Let me be clear- There has been a lot of terrible behavior on both sides of this; I don't think any of it is acceptable. So there is no need.

This primary proves why Democrats have constantly underperformed (right up until 2006,) if there is anyway to blow it we find it. This time it is by having two AMAZING candidates and letting it turn into a dogfight where the winner is coming out so bruised they will wind up with a tough fight on their hands when they should have a mammoth advantage.


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:09:11 PM EST

I started believing (2.00 / 2)

I would never vote for Obama when I saw a bunch of Obama supporters recommending and promoting a diary saying "I will never vote for Clinton in the General Election."

That was when I knew how this was going to be played.

Obama himself then endorsed this strategy by saying he believed his supporters wouldn't vote for Clinton but that her supporters would fall in line behind him.

So before I make a more definitive statement here, do you believe Obama supporters when they say they will never vote for Clinton in the general election?


by Edgar08 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:18:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I started believing (none / 0)

That's just another lie propagated by the Hillbots. What he actually said was that it was "not clear" that she could "get," i.e., attract, all the support he was getting (by implication, from Republicans and independents.)

He doesn't own the souls of all of people who have or might one day vote for him. Suggesting they might not all vote for Clinton -- in addition to being a rather obvious truth -- is in no way comparable to what you're saying.


by EMTP democrat on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:34:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I started believing (none / 0)

His comments were also supported by polling at the time he made them.

Now, not so much.


by Korha on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:35:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I started believing (none / 0)

How are you so sure about this?


by marcotom on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:37:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I started believing (none / 0)

Exit polling in OH, TX, MS showed increasing polarization on the will you vote for the eventual nominee question.

Obama had an egde in Feburary (by a few points). Then, Clinton voters started taking it personally and Obama was below 50% among Clinton voters in MS if I remember correctly.


by hctb on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:31:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I started believing (none / 0)

I don't know what other Obama supporters will do. To be blunt I find it hard to believe that any group of diehard Democrats will abandon the party at the highest point on the ticket in any great numbers.

I also tend to have a pretty low opinion of people who will though...


Oh Mammy Dear, we're all mad over here livin' in America
by JDF on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:15:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We have been divided because (none / 0)

Oh, I believe them.


by Korha on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:28:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We have been divided because (none / 0)

The pledged delegate leader has the right to think it is important that the Democratic party has decided to nominate him for POTUS.  Reasons for the pledged delegate trailer to justify her importance escape me.


by Carlo on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 03:47:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

Seems like it's been months since issues of substance have been discussed in this campaign.  It's all about Hillary's tax returns or Obama's pastor and other peripheral stuff.

This primary started off pretty good, but it has gone off the rails, and I'll be a lot happier when it's over.  I suspect that Howard Dean and the party elders feel the same way.

I don't have any magic formula for keeping political campaigns on the high road.  Human nature tends to rear its ugly head...


by global yokel on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:16:00 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 2)

The obama campaign knows about white guilt and they have played on it really well.

I believe Ferraro fell on a sword for the Clinton campaign.

She went out there and said enough is enough with this race card.

I don't think Obama's campaign won't be called out if he tries to do it.

If you cry wolf one too many times , people would say enough.

From Bill to Hillary to Ferraro , all people who had been on the frontlines , all of a sudden are all racists and the corrupt media gladly played along while the Obama campaign played them for suckers or maybe they saw it but the white guilt couldn't make them call them out.

How do you explain JJ junior going on with Laura O donell on MSNBC and saying right there that ok now we are going to South Carolina and Clinton didn't cry for Katrina.

You would have thought she would have said hey hold up why are you race baiting but she just sat there .

That was the most blatant form of race baiting yet this campaign and there was no outrage.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:22:41 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

Do you defend Ferraro's comments? If so, please do it right here.

And to say that Obama played the race card on her is just delusional, he did not. That is why her statements that claimed such were so deplorable.


by marcotom on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:28:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

I didn't .

However if the Obama wouldn't have exploited it if he didn't think it would be of benefit to him.

If he was truely a post racial candidate he would have let it go .

However he is a politician like everyone else only he has the ability to put a cloud over his supporters.

I think he has overplayed it anyway .

Thats why I said she fell on her sword for the clinton camp because she went out there and made the point we are talking about here.

If you are such a post racial candidate why is it any slight criticism gets painted as racist and you exploit it.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:35:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

How did he "exploit" it exactly? You are throwing serious accusations here, I think you should back them up. I happen to profoundly disagree with your view, I'm sure there is proof out there if it actually happened as you claim.


by marcotom on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:39:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

No way, it was the media that latched onto it. Obama said she was being ridiculous, but specifically said that she's not a racist. And frankly, it's absolutely ridiculous for someone to MAKE A RACIAL COMMENT and then turn around and accuse the other side of racism for replying to it.

I'll be so glad when this primary season is over. Maybe we can start seeing things through the same lens again.


by Mullibok on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:55:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 3)

They took the case of a raging bigot unloading a full clip of crazy on them, and came back with "absurd." Not racist (which it was). Absurd. That's a very mild adjective, given Ferraro's racist rantings.

Basically, Jerome's screed boils down to this; it's not the racist that is deplorable, but anyone who responds to them in any way, even if they don't call them racist. Simply to dissent from their statements makes the Obama campaign guilty of "playing the race card."

This is old-style Republicianism through and through, as were Ferraro's insults. The gist of it is that racism is not real, and the real social issue is that white people are being victimized by accusations of racism. There's nothing to talk about, it's all just political correctness, etc., etc.

Jerome is so eager to spout that meme that he shoots it off without the Obama campaign ever having accused anyone about racism or said anything about race other than that we should move beyond it, and, since you asked, no, it is not an advantage in American politics to be a mixed-race black man.

That he is so excited to mouth these Rush Limbaugh platitudes that he ignores the actual circumstances is the most creepy thing about it.  Is he just trying to immunize himself against accusations of racism before he introduces the next phase of his smear campaign? I wonder.


by EMTP democrat on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:48:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/columnis ts/jill_porter/20080206_Jill_Porter_Whe n_did_electing_women_lose_cachet.html

Women shouldn't feel guilty if they prefer Obama, Oprah Winfrey declared at a rally Sunday designed to siphon female support from Clinton.

"Being free means you get to think for yourself, and you get to decide for yourself what to do."

But Ferraro is irate at Winfrey's choice to back Obama - and blames "race."

She emphasizes that she's speaking only for herself and not the Clinton camp, which "would be furious."

Winfrey has been an advocate for women her entire life, Ferraro noted, asking:

"What would push her to come out at all, first of all, and against a woman in this race?

"If Obama were white, would she have endorsed him? I don't think so," Ferraro said.

"But you're not allowed to say it because you're considered racist. Well, I'm sorry. That's not right."


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:07:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

I am not sure the quote was a good representation of the oped, but that is quite well argued.
Thanks for the link.
by hctb on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:01:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

I've heard a lot of charges of sexism (or statements that can be construed that way) is coming out of the Obama campaign.

Can someone point me to a few of the most egregious examples?  I haven't seen it.  


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:22:58 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

The Obama campaign's response to Clinton's experience claim is grounded in sexism. He says she was just "having tea with Ambassadors." Obama attempts to reduce her decades of experience, from organizing workers while in college through her eight years in the Senate to being merely the wife of the president who has tea with ambassadors. He has no other response, any substantive comparison of their relative experience destroys him, so all he can do is diminish her as a woman.

Now, should anyone dare point out that Obama has gotten a free ride in this campaign largely through skillfully positioning himself as the post-racial black candidate, they are immediately accused of minimizing his qualifications because he is a black man.


by souvarine on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:31:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

I think Greg Craig has a pretty substantial rebuttal to Clinton's experience as First Lady.  If you look at the way reporters have taken on this issue is interesting as well.  When it comes down to it, Clinton's claims in China, Northern Ireland and Kosovo can be boiled down to a series of impactful speeches and visits.  Historians looking at her actions concluded that she wasn't making policy, but providing words and actions that helped carry President Clinton's policies forward.

There's nothing wrong with that, but, in effect, Clinton's actions as First Lady were words, without power to back them up, much like a young man running for senate railing against a war he had no power to promote or stop.

And yes, I'm sure she had plenty of tea parties.  If she didn't she wasn't doing her job.


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:53:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

This is the Clinton response to the Craig memo. You can find it in their fact hub.

I think there is an irony that Craig seems to undermine her involvement as words, there do seem to be some factual errors or misrepresentations by the Obama campaign on her involvement.

http://facts.hillaryhub.com/archive/?id= 6465

I think it is also interesting that Craig attacked her time as First Lady rather than in the Senate.  

If you want to see how gender is affecting this race, google "right man for the job" and Obama. Axelrod was using this language back in January but I do not see it as much.

I dont think it is because my grandma put a bumper sticker on her Lincoln that "Hillary is the right man for the job," but she can be fearsome when provoked. I think she could take Axelrod.


by hctb on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:17:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

The "her supporters will vote for me, but mine won't vote for her" thing was about independent voters, not blacks.  It came in the context of a remark about her high negatives, which she has with indies, not with African Americans.


by davisb on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:26:47 PM EST

You are forgetting one important (2.00 / 1)

faction. Democrats. They both need them and so far, she's getting them.


by tabbycat in tenn on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:29:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are forgetting one important (none / 0)

She's getting the Democrats...?  Really...?  I wonder who those people voting for Obama in the closed primaries are then....  Democrats are voting for both of them.

Let's face it...  we need to have some serious discussions in this country both about sexism and about racism.  The shame of it is that we are so bogged down in the little skirmishes that we forget to fight the actual battle...  

Framing an argument about sexism by saying it's worse than racism... or even close is a sure way to strip a very good discussion of all of its validity.

As a woman, I would like to say that I am not owed a damn thing.  

As a Democrat, I would like to say that we can heal these divisions and win in November...  but the longer this stupid turf battle plays out, te less I like our chances.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:58:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Here is the full quote:

"I think there is no doubt that she has higher negatives than any of the remaining democratic candidates. That's just a fact and there are some who will not vote for her. If you look at the results in Nevada, for example, she eked out the popular vote victory over me, but I ended up winning more delegates because she got almost all of her votes from Clark County, Las Vegas and some of the traditional democratic areas. We got votes there, but we also got votes in northern Nevada and rural conservative regions of the state that traditionally don't vote Democratic, but were excited about my campaign.

I have no doubt that once the nomination contest is over, I will get the people who voted for her. Now the question is can she get the people who voted for me? And I think that describes sort of one of the choices that people have, just a practical choice, as they move forward."

From:
http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/308216.aspx

He's clearly talking about non-traditional Democratic voters, not about African Americans.

Jerome pointing to this comment as somehow kicking off racial tensions seems to be the very epitome of people needlessly injecting issues of race into comments that are in no way race related.


by davisb on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:34:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

It never occurred to me, when Obama said that, that he meant black Democrats wouldn't vote for Hillary.  I knew he meant indies and what he likes to think of as Obamacans.  That attitude, however, made lots of people angry.  Some of us dislike arrogance.  The funniest part is that polling in the last couple of weeks has shown him to be quite wrong.  


by Montague on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:42:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

You are only seeing your own arrogance reflected back at you. What Obama said is a garden-variety electability argument -- you know, the kind of argument Clinton is making for the SDs to defect to the loser in states, delegates, and the popular vote. Is it arrogance when Clinton says she can get more voters in the general? It is a wholly inoffensive statement.


by EMTP democrat on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:52:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes (none / 0)

Those comments were made before race became a fulcrum of division in the party.

That statement is no less offensive to me, really.

Irrationally so if you want.  It makes me want to prove him wrong.

(And my duplicate comment below can be deleted if anyone wants.)


by Edgar08 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:42:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes (none / 0)

I have to say I don't really take offense to the comments, though there's a solid chance they're wrong (especially in this anti-GOP climate).  

I think it's pretty clear, though, that they have absolutely nothing to do with race.


by davisb on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:47:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 3)

True in part, though his quote actually broadens beyond that reference, but I'm just pointing out how it's been received in the context of the campaign. It sent a signal, both to his supporters, and hers. And no doubt, you've seen it picked up by those claiming that AA's would abandon Clinton, and hardened Clinton reaction to that quote-- that's what I'm point out as the damage done.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:50:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

Whatever you want to say about Obama, I think it's pretty clear that his whole campaign is premised on unity and racial reconciliation. So it's hardly as if he wants us all to accuse each other of being racists/race-baiters.

I do think it is important to point out that while a lot of this outrage is manufactured, a lot of is also quite real and genuine, particularly on the part of the black community. So I don't agree with Jerome's somewhat flippant dismissal of the matter.


by Korha on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:34:43 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Whatever you want to say about Obama, I think it's pretty clear that his whole campaign is premised on unity and racial reconciliation

- You have been hoodwinked , bamboozled , run amok , led astray .

Does that fall under unity or racial reconciliation  


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:45:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

?


by marcotom on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:49:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think Lori is quoting Obama himself (none / 0)

And I think her question is therefore highly relevant.  Where DOES that fall on the continuum of racial reconciliation and unity?


by Montague on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

NOTHIN' LIKE QUOTING MALCOLM x IN THE DEEP SOUTH TO BRING ABOUT RACIAL UNITY!


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:28:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Well, when a politician says two diametrically opposed things (i.e., someone's not qualified to be commander-in-chief, but he's somehow good enough to be one heartbeat away from the presidency), I do feel "bamboozled" and "hoodwinked."  As a white guy, maybe I'm too dumb to notice whatever it is you're talking about, so please explain what code words I missed out on.  Those words do have ordinary meanings in common speak, after all.  One of these two candidates has to win, so they have to "divide" the party in that sense.  Of course, no one's talking about that type of "divisiveness," but permanent fissures in the party.


by rfahey22 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:30:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't think that Dems are going to win (2.00 / 0)

regardless whether it is Obama or Hillary because we Dems are too divided and we are more interested in tearing each other up than going after Republicans.

Game over folks.

Look towards 2012.


by puma on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:37:33 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 2)

Let us hope there will be unity once the nomination is decided. Hilary does not have much of a chance at winning the nomination based on delegate math. Maybe she shouldn't drop out, but she should stop campaigning like McCain lite.  The only way Hilary wins is if she gets more than 65% of the superdelegates. That won't happen and if it did, I would imagine it would fracture the black vote and the democratic party for years to come, even if Obama could be convinced to take the VP slot in that humiliating situation.

Kinsey misses the point. I don't think poorly of Hilary because what Ferraro says, I think poorly of Hilary because of her reaction to a racist remark. Hilary blew it on the Ferraro debacle. She had her 3AM call and she put politics and spin above belief. My feeling is that if someone says something racist, then deal with it right away. I'm with Keith Olberman on this one.

For Obama's part, he has not tried to spin his problem with Wright on Hilary.  He is not whining that the other camp made a big issue out of something and forced him to deal with it. Obama is dealing with it in a straight forward way by writing an article about it. I would have loved to see Hilary write an article on the Ferraro comments.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barack-oba ma/on-my-faith-and-my-church_b_91623.htm l


by erlin on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:37:37 PM EST

You only want unity if YOUR (2.00 / 1)

candidate gets the nomination.  Please do not expect "unity" from Hillary supporters when you continue to making ridiculous comments such as that she is campaigning like "McCain lite" and something about how she should be writing blog articles to confess someone else's sins.  You're not winning friends or influencing people.


by Montague on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:46:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You only want unity if YOUR (none / 0)

Yes, it's so hard to be you. If you think the democratic wing of the democratic party is going to come after you Ferraro Democrats with flowers and candy, think again. A McCain presidency is the end of the right to chose and if you want to bring that closer with your little hissy fit, be my guest. It's no skin off my nose; I don't have a uterus.


by EMTP democrat on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, there you are again, troll (none / 0)

<3


by Montague on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:11:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You only want unity if YOUR (none / 0)

For those unfamiliar, EMTP Democrat uses Ferraro Democrats as his/her code for racists--s/he offered this last week on the MS results thread. Does that make it troll to use code for racist?  borderline. no mojo, though.


by hctb on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:39:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You only want unity if YOUR (2.00 / 1)

JUST LIKE BUSH.

COMPROMISE MEANS

YOU GOTTA DO IT MY WAY.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:31:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You only want unity if YOUR (none / 0)

Hilary has said she and McCain have more experience than Obama. She is implying that McCain is a better choice than Obama. However, by this metric, Cheney and Rumsfield are better. In fact Dodd and Biden are more experienced than Hilary, so she should step aside for them.

Hillary's 3AM commericial is playing on the politics of fear. Same playbook the republicans have been playing since 9/11.

All this equals McCain lite.


by erlin on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:11:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

You lost me as soon as you said you are with Keith Olbermann.  Add him to my list of charlatans.


by tiffany on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:03:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Sniff. You don't like KO? Is it because he has been so outspoken against the Iraq war? Is it because he has been against the abuse of power done by the Bush administration?  Please give me an example of what you dislike about him.


by erlin on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:13:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Surprise! (2.00 / 0)

Many Americans, who live in a country that banned slavery only 150 years ago, are racist. And many Americans, who live in a country that gave women the vote less than 90 years ago, are sexist.

It's a very real factor in a contest that collects the vote of Americans nationwide. And it's something that many people have opinions about, and therefore want to read news stories about.

I think the worry that "accusations" will build up resentment is unfounded, and the extent of racism accusations overstated. People on the internet say many crazy things, and the ubiquity of statements that seem to coalesce around a certain accusation (like racism) means squat.


by Jon on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:40:14 PM EST

Re: Surprise! (none / 0)

Actually a lot of women had the right to vote before 1920. It was up to states then, and Wyoming gave women the vote in 1870.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:26:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Surprise! (none / 0)

Good catch, policymatters!
For the pile on, the same could be said for slavery.
Both state driven.
Abortion too.

by hctb on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:43:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 2)

The elephant in the room:

Ferraro made racist comments.  

Am I banned?

I'm not sure.

Progressive bloggers called out Ferraro on her racist comments.  I don't see any problems.  If a conservative commentator had said the same thing, we would have been up in arms.  

You can't close up pandora's box.  And what is this attack on "upper class white liberals?"  Are we just going to demonize demographic groups now?  It's just gets stranger and stranger...


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:40:43 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

"If a conservative commentator had said the same thing, we would have been up in arms."

BS. Newt Gingrich just said "everything she said was true" and not a single of your progressive bloggers, or you I doubt, went up in arms.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:43:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 2)

   Well, there are a lot of conservative commentators, Jerome.  So little time.  Remember Don Imus?  Limbaugh for his McNabb comments?  
  Clinton made a mistake when she didn't denounce the comments immediately.  That's all.
   Saying that Newt Gingrich has made racist remarks is beating a dead horse.
Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 2)

Considering this is the first I've heard that Newt commented at all on the situation, I think claiming that as proof that progressive bloggers wrongfully didn't go nuts is really weak, Jerome.


by SKI on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:50:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Uh, we expect that from Republicans.  I thought that was common knowledge.


by rfahey22 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:47:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

Actually, I did post that the only people defending Ferraro's comments were Buchanan, Gingrich, O'Reilly...  and that is the problem...  If you are a Democrat and those guys are your defenders, you have problems....

Granted I posted it at Kos....


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

I was in a similar situation when Bill Maher played HRC talking about finding out about Lewinsky as a sign of how she would respond to a nuclear crisis.
Joe Scarborough--the token conservative that night--was the only one to call BS and say it is not the same thing and call out Bill Maher for being a pig.

Didn't make Joe Scarborough my hero, but he was right in that instance.  


by hctb on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:48:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

So Jerome are you defending Feraro? Are you defending Hilary's lukewarm reply to it? I just don't get your point of view. Change the name from Buchanan agreeing with Ferraro to someone who matters like McCain, then you would hear progressive bloggers up in arms. Hilary is a candidate for President. This is why it matters.


by erlin on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:18:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

So Jerome are you defending Feraro? Are you defending Hilary's lukewarm reply to it? I just don't get your point of view. Change the name from Buchanan agreeing with Ferraro to someone who matters like McCain, then you would hear progressive bloggers up in arms. Hilary is a candidate for President. This is why it matters.


by erlin on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:18:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

So Jerome are you defending Feraro? Are you defending Hilary's lukewarm reply to it? I just don't get your point of view. Change the name from Buchanan agreeing with Ferraro to someone who matters like McCain, then you would hear progressive bloggers up in arms. Hilary is a candidate for President. This is why it matters.


by erlin on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:18:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Um, based on what you wrote, if anyone should be up in arms, it should be against Ferraro. Freaking Newt Gingrich just agreed with her comments!

If you want other progressive bloggers to attack Newt for agreeing with Ferraro, you're admitting Ferraro was wrong!

Am I missing something here?


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:45:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Ferraro DIDNT make racist comments.

she spokde annoobviouzs ruuth.

91%% in miss. hullo!

should i be banned?


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:36:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

she spoke an obvious truth.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:37:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 0)

Was Ferraro speaking an "obvious truth" when she attacked Oprah for supporting Obama?

African Americans supporting a Black candidate = racism

African American woman supporting a Black candidate = racist and sexist.

If that isn't GWB logic, I don't know what is.


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:47:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

so you believe obama being black had nothing to do with oprahs first ever endorsement?  

do ya really?


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

Of course it has something to do with it.  It's one factor of many.  Where were when Clinton was outpolling Obama amoung African Americans?  Where were you when the media was questioning whether Obama was "Black enough"?

Obama has a solidarity vote.  Clinton does as well.  There is nothing wrong with that.  African Americans were on the fence with regards to Obama early in the primary.  You know what changed their minds?  He kicked Clinton's butt in Iowa.  He proved that he was a viable candidate BEFORE African Americans started moving to him as block.  African Americans are excited about a viable Black candidate, but the key word is viable, not black.


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:35:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Ferraro--in that story that you posted elsewhere--is asking why race is trumping gender. Steinhem asked the same think and was also called a racist (ON NPR!)  

I dont think saying race is trumping gender is a racist statement.  I wouldn't feel that someone saying gender is trumping race is a sexist statement.


by hctb on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:54:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

59% for Obama in the whitest state in the country.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:27:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes (none / 0)

Those comments were made before race became a fulcrum of division in the party.

That statement is no less offensive to me, really.

Irrationally so if want.  It makes me want to prove him wrong.


by Edgar08 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:41:16 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

It must really hurt.


I love all people ... even fundamentally flawed ones -- me.
by pitahole on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:44:39 PM EST

Racist things (2.00 / 0)

will be said during this election, by Democrats and Republicans. It's far more important to stomp out such racism with the power of speech than to prevent the alienation of the few voters that somehow feel resentment in response to such speech.

Incidentally, I don't think calling out a public official like Gerry Ferraro on racism will breed resentment in any voter except Gerry Ferraro.


by Jon on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:45:43 PM EST

Re: Racist things (none / 0)

well said.


jon
by Jon Pincus on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:41:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Identity Politics (2.00 / 1)

I think this is the death-knell of identity politics, and good riddance.  When people are seriously debating whether or not gender trumps race as a victim card, the whole thing becomes a farce.


by APoxOnBoth on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:48:53 PM EST

Re: Identity Politics (2.00 / 0)

That would be the best outcome, for sure.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:52:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm sick of it from both perspectives (none / 0)

Out-victiming each other is no way to win, nor will it help to decrease sexism and racism (or any other -ism).

ALL BIGOTRY SUCKS.  It's not a contest.


by Montague on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:16:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

end of identity politics = back to white men only? (none / 0)

interesting that what the media calls "identity politics" (and continually stirs up in lieu of coverage of the issues) only applies when the identity we're talking about is not white male hetero Christian (etc. etc.).  


by chiefscribe on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 01:06:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Upside (none / 0)

Having heard all that has been said, there is an upside to what has happened.

I'm a Londoner, with a mixed race brother, and the politics of race are very different here for a number of reasons - better in some ways, worse in a few others. But one thing I have noticed, having worked and studied in the US, travelled there many times, and married an American (democrat), is that the history of racial politics is so tense and polarised, with assassinations and riots and burnt cities in living memory, that my most liberal friends in the US kind of skate around the issue. There's a lot of pent up anxiety, guilt, fury, stoked up by the right wing, and pussy footed around by the left. For all the diviseness and bad odour of the democratic party airing this stuff in public, it could in the end be a good thing.

The fact that Jerome has led with this subject is a starter. You may or may not agree, but at least the conversation is being had. And while you're all talking about how you've lost the nomination and the party is falling apart, can I add one thing to cheer you up, from the perspective of a Brit many thousands of miles away.

We're all watching you. We're amazed by your candidates. Hillary would be a brilliant president. I personally think Barack would be better. But look at the turnout, look at these blogs, look at the crazy but enthralling process. No one cares over here about McCain. We're watching the democratic party trying to reinvent itself from the roots up, and though it's turned nasty at times, as we say here....

Big yourselves up

The good news is you have a great potential president in the making.
Ooops
The bad news is that you've got two of them


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:59:37 PM EST

Re: The Upside (none / 0)

Interesting perspective.  Thanks for that.


by Montague on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:16:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Upside (2.00 / 1)

I think, sadly, that nothing will be aired.  Part of the problem with race in this country is that nobody can talk about it.  This primary is a particularly bad example.  The minute someone starts hurling accusations of racism, discussion ENDS.  Everyone retreats to their own little corner and glares at everyone else.  That is NOT the way to address racial problems in this country - problems that are very real and need to be dealt with.  

That's part of why I'm so disappointed in the Obama campaign.  They started hurling accusations of racism and things have gone downhill from there.   We can't make any progress now b/c everyone is hunkered down in their trench.  


by mlr701 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:50:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Upside (none / 0)

I think you are right.  We STILL cannot talk about race in the U.S.  It would be nice if we could progress on this issue, but this primary has really felt like a setback.


by Montague on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:55:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Give yourselves some credit (none / 0)

Here you all are. Talking about it. You may not be agreeing, but you are talking


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:26:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The UK has its own troubles, no doubt (2.00 / 0)

I believe there's plenty of racial difficulty across the pond as well.  That's the nature, these days, of being a Western nation with lots of immigration.  There is no question, however, that slavery in the USA from its inception is the root of so much of our own troubles.  


by Montague on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:27:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You'll never be able to talk about it... (none / 0)

...if it's always the other side's fault. That's the point of dialogue.  

I was with you until you turned it into a tit for tat


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:22:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Is it just me?  Did anyone notice that Jerome wasted a lot of words, without saying anything?  I'm sure he thinks that BHO is so lucky (as Ferraro put it) to be black.  And, I'm sure Jerome sees that this lucky black guy is making up racism.  

Jerome, could you please specify all the instances where this lucky black guy has been making up racism?

And, before you start cutting and pasting from TNR, please consider the following:

http://halfricanrevolution.blogspot.com/ 2008/02/im-all-out-of-violins.html

Are you saying it is sexist to note that BHO has more appeal to those outside (sans Rush's recent influence) of the Democratic party?  The equivalent would be to suggest it is racist when HRC says that winning big state primaries is somehow an indication that she has a better shot in the GE, even though polling says otherwise.  Do you not see that you made a giant fake sexism claim in your post where you want to say that lucky black guy (as you and Ferraro consider him) BHO is making fake racism claims?  I love irony.

Desperate is as desperate does.


--1jphusseinb-- she's not a monster, as far as I know--diplomat Sinbad, making the world safe--all bluster, no cattle--
by 1jpb on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:09:59 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

this country is more divided by wealth or "class" than race.

Prep schooled Ivy League boys arent "victims".

Eve when they pretend they are.

tell me where once in Obamas life, his "race" has hurt him?


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:43:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

This is a repulsive comment, utterly delusional.


by fenwaysteve on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:02:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

repulsve?

how?

I went to Columbia at the same time as Obama.
No one at that school was a victim.  Then or now.

Now compare that to the lives of the millions of people, black, white, red ,brown - who cant even afford a jr college, so they are doomed to a life of less money, harder work and more fear.

explain your reasoning.

explain obama as victim to me.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:14:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

He doesn't call himself a victim, but you know, he's the only black person in the Senate and there have been fewer than 5 ever elected Senator.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:29:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

You really are oblivious.  Digging deeper into your hole.  Using your own experience at Columbia makes no difference in the judgment of the life of a man with Obama's history.  I can talk about my time at Case Western, NYU Grad School or GW Law all I want and then relate it to Obama's time at Harvard Law I guess then as well.

You're framing the argument in a reckless way.  An absolutist definition of victim doesn't get anyone anywhere.  Your basic assumption is that if you're not a victim than you're part of the elite.  Clearly, this does not fly.

A victim to me is only defined as victim in their own mind.  If you want to talk about the definition of victim on the grand scale, then you must look to the simple fact that Obama got less than 1/4 of the vote of white men in Southern States in a DEMOCRATIC primary purely because of his skin color.  You tell me how that's good for him?  

Overall, I am just absolutely disgusted by the "counter-claims" that Jerome posted to start this thread.  Just by saying "some will claim that this is a counter-claim, but it isn't" doesn't get him off the hook for actually making one.  

That's two posts in two days from your fearless leader about "look it up" in the history books or in Obama's comments.  First the brokered convention bull from yesterday and now this.  I might be joining the long list of banned people from this site shortly, but the funniest thing is that I'm not even a true believer.  I was for Gore, then Edwards, and then voted for Obama...I'm just calling b.s. when I see it.


by fenwaysteve on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:33:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

again, specially, before these primaries, when in Obamas life has his dual race been a burden to him.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:30:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Give me a example where it has helped...?

Crimony...  silly season is just not ending soon enough.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:09:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

hows a 91% block vote sound to you?


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:17:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 0)

Are you Geraldine Ferraro herself?  I think you've made yourself clear.  Obama's only where he is because he's black.  Got it.  Check.  Consider it noted.


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:25:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Well....  given Bear Sterns just got purchased for pennies on the dollar ($2 per share for stock that was valued at $170 in January and $30 per share on Friday) I dare say this country is headed for deeper trouble than even these divisions...

http://gothamist.com/2008/03/16/jp_morga n_chase_2.php

These racist and sexist claims are certainly titillating to the masses, the media especially...  but the country is headed for a serious economic meltdown.  Prepare for every issue but the economy to be reduced to window-dressing...

Lucky for us, McCain has already said that is not a strong suit for him...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:32:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Over/under on the Dow drop Monday? I say 750 points down.


by fenwaysteve on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:34:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

The Nikkei has been down around 400 since it opened...

Not sure what it's at now, but CNBC is on and people are really nervous.... and it's the overseas edition.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:42:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

SHE NEVER SAID THAT, NOR DID I.

FACTS ARE FACTS.

91 % IS A FACT.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:01:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

You'd be a lot more convincing if you weren't trying so hard.  MS represented the most polarizing contest of the entire primary.  The white "block" vote there when 70/26 for Clinton according to MSNBC exit polls.

We get it.  He's black.  Black people like him.


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:11:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

a lot more convincing"

of what?

that I to am not a "racist"?

what is WRONG with you people?


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:23:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

I never said, nor implied any such thing.  What is the point of pointing to Obama's share of the Black vote in MS then?  You're the one pushing it on half a dozen responses, not me.


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:38:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 0)

tell me where once in Obamas life, his "race" has hurt him?

"The Hispanic voter -- and I want to say this very carefully -- has not shown a lot of willingness or affinity to support black candidates," Sergio Bendixen, a pollster for the Clinton campaign said in an interview for the "Minority Reports" in The New Yorker magazine's Web site.

So, I guess, according to this guy's comments, Obama would have probably won Texas and/or California if he wasn't black.

Good enough?

And I'm guessing Obama would be less likely to have Wright as his pastor if he was white too.


by Aris Katsaris on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:09:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

I'm guessing Obama would be less likely to have Wright as his pastor if he was white too.'"

OH MY!

WORD ON THE STREET IS THAT OBAMA JOINED THIS CHURCH TO SHOW CHI SOUTHIES THAT HE WASNT THE HALF WHITE PREPPY - THAT MANY ON THE SOUTH SIDE CONSIDERED HIM TO BE.

SO IT SEEMS YOURE RIGHT, THAT IS "WHITIE'S" FAULT TOO.

BUT WHO IS "WHITIE"?


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:34:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

You're "word on the street" source is almost as good as Kristol's source in his NYT column where he didn't know that BHO was not in church on July 22.

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/arch ives/2008/03/kristol_bungles_key_fact_in _an.php

Obviously it makes you and Ferraro happy to say that BHO is a lucky black man who makes up racism.  Everybody needs a hobby, apparently you've chosen to be a racism denier.  Different strokes for different folks, I guess.


--1jphusseinb-- she's not a monster, as far as I know--diplomat Sinbad, making the world safe--all bluster, no cattle--
by 1jpb on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:22:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

i am confused.
something seemed to flip in the middle of this article.
who are these "accusers?"
are they the targets of the racist and sexist attacks?
should they remain silent, especially when a pattern of attacks occur?
is the victim being blamed here?
The sleep of reason begets monsters. -- Francisco Jose de Goya
by joe in oklahoma on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:10:24 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 0)

I think Kinsley was referring to both Clinton and Obama, and essentially accusing them both of manufacturing outrage at many points.

In the sense that the column might have been slanted toward one side or the other, I think more of the accusations have come from the Obama camp. I can't actually think of that many times the Clinton campaign has called people out for sexism. Chris Matthews and David Shuster of MSNBC, of course, but I don't remember other times. There was the small kerfuffle over "claws" and "periodically" (I personally believe that Obama had no ill intent in either case), but those were pushed by bloggers, not by the campaign, as far as I could tell.


by OrangeFur on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:26:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

I still don't understand the furor over periodically...  

can anyone shed some light on that?


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:10:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

This comment of his, "I understand that Senator Clinton, periodically when she's feeling down, launches attacks as a way of trying to boost her appeal," can be construed as basically saying that Hillary gets PMS and then launches negative ads.

If Obama were someone with a history of making such comments, I might go with that. But I think he's a good person and wouldn't do that.

I wish the people accusing Hillary Clinton of racism would do the same.


by OrangeFur on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:30:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Excellent Jerome (2.00 / 1)

but as a Hillary supporter I understand the one truth.  We are democrats and a circular firing squad is one of our strengths.  We're really lousy shots and we all play hugs and kisses in the end.


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:13:23 PM EST

Obama should defend Geraldine Feraro (2.00 / 2)

It is in the interest of Obama not to be overtly race sensitive or make this about race or about black and white. Especially that he is running as president for all americans.

George Allen was overtly racist calling a Indian American macaca thus should be called on --- but Geraldine Feraro and Bill Clinton was saying something factual----thus it should not be spinned as racist remark.

Why do many independents support Obama because he is beyond race.  

What if you were ordinary white guy thinking in the same lines---imagine being called a racist for just thinking--South Carolina was won by Jesse Jackson because---face it has a big african american population who votes 90% for the black candidate.  Then people will descend on you as racist.  Dont you think there is a danger her for becoming us vs you. Dont you think that people are tired of a campaign going to be about race which pits black against white of being falsely accused as racist.

Obama should decry oversensitive outcry on racism or even sexism.  In fact his response should also be--I am proud that today we are facing historical event that the 2 main candidates is a  woman and  him.


by jasmine on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:13:29 PM EST

Re: Obama should defend Geraldine Feraro (none / 0)

How does the fact that Clinton herself disowned those comments fit into this analysis?  Ferraro would seem to be a complete pariah at this point.


by rfahey22 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:33:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama should defend Geraldine Feraro (none / 0)

Ferraro is a REAL victim of campaign racism.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:46:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama should defend Geraldine Feraro (none / 0)

That's why she's become a Fox News fixture over the past week and a half?  If that's the case, then one could argue that Clinton is too weak to combat that racism, since Ferraro was promptly cut loose.

I guess it's a good thing that Samantha Power was a woman, so Clinton can't be accused of sexism for having her fired.  


by rfahey22 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:51:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama should defend Geraldine Feraro (none / 0)

I like Powers, I feel VERY SORRY FOR HER.  

SHE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FIRED.

and she was.


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:06:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama should defend Geraldine Feraro (none / 0)

It is not Hillary to defend Ferraro---but Obama---who shd prove to everyone that  he is not offended and that people should stop accusing other people as racists when they really are not.

Imagine attacking Bill Clinton as racist--or Ferraro just because they said factual statements.

It is like saying sexist to people who point out Hillary won NH because of the womens vote.


by jasmine on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:51:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

All I know is that I'll be happy whether Hillary or Obama is president because, unlike John McCain, they are both democrats.

Right now were are slipping in the polls. I don't care if this race continues until the convention but Obama and Clinton and each and every single one of their surrogates needs to call a truce. NOW!!!!!!! Otherwise, we may blow it.

We need to concentrate on McCain and show the nation that only a democrat can get us out or Iraq, revive our economy and truly respect the separation of church and state, instead of bloodying each other. We need to elevate the inherit strengths of both candidates in the public domain.

Overall, we may have our differences on primary day but lets keep them to primary day and focus on putting our eventual nominee, whoever it may be, in the best place to win in November.


by swimmercrat on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:19:00 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

Personally, I think serious, possibly fatal damage is already done.

Hillary Clinton, of all people, has been effectively smeared as a racist and thus poisoned for the general election. All those accusations have boomeranged so Obama has now become the Black Candidate - instead of the post-racial candidate who was supposed to attract independents and Republicans.

And after the Rev. Wright video, Obama had, what, an eight-point drop in the head-to-head in one day?

Now, at least to the crossover vote, he's become just another black guy who blames white America for everything. By default, those voters will go with the white guy - McCain.


by Susie from Philly on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:25:11 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Between a one and four point drop in the head-to-head, and on a day when he always drops (Fridays and weekends are bad for Obama's poll numbers). And remember that even at the worst point of the Wright issue, when it was brand new and people only knew the worst (since bad news pretty much always leads good) his poll numbers remained higher than Clinton's.


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:52:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 2)

She's a woman and He's black, get over it. They are both politicians and will use their identity to help them.

I personally find Obama's passive/aggressive approach more troubling, but only marginally so.


by Judeling on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:28:51 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Well thats what happens when you try to break barriers in politics.  Jerome Great post bro! Hold it down Yo.


by nzubechukwu on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:30:55 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 2)

This place is getting uglier by the day.  One could actually chart its descent into madness over the past month, if one were so inclined.  Perhaps it was inevitable when a female candidate went up against a (half-)black candidate for the nomination.  When was the last time anyont talked about issues around here?  Now it's about which group slammed the other group first.  Pathetic.


by rfahey22 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:45:45 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (1.00 / 1)

BUH BYE


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:48:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Ladies and gentleman, exhibit A.  Thank you for lowering the level of discourse with your INTELLIGENT POSTING.


by rfahey22 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:53:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

dont let the door...


by John Wesley Hardin was a Friend to the Poor on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:03:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 1)

I fear that a large part of the problem is that our two remaining candidates are fairly close on the issues.  That cuts down on what we can discuss and perhaps makes it easier for the descent into identity politics and madness.

Personally, I favor Hillary because I trust that she is the one who can and will get her platform into place (after beating McCain).  But Obama would also be a far better president than McCain.  We certainly have a problem, though, and the Democratic Party is suffering for it.  I don't know yet if it will be long-term or merely fleeting damage.


by Montague on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:00:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

"George Allen was overtly racist calling a Indian American macaca thus should be called on --- but Geraldine Feraro and Bill Clinton was saying something factual----thus it should not be spinned as racist remark"

"Ferraro is a REAL victim of campaign racism."

"How does the fact that Clinton herself disowned those comments fit into this analysis?"

well, if one person from the Clinton campaign made a race-specific remark regarding Obama, it can and should be dismissed as a stupid lack of judgment on that person's part. when, however a number of people make such remarks (his campaign is just so much shuck and jive, he is every liberal's imaginary black friend, he is only popular because he is black, etc etc etc...)  at least 7 times, then a pattern of behavior is discernible. a disturbing pattern that suggests two possible readings:

1. it is a deliberate tactic to use such gaffes to "remind" people that Hillary is prepared to lead, and Obama is, well...black.

2. or it indicates that after the first two "stupid and insensitive remarks"   the rest of the people in the Clinton campaign didn't learn from others' mistakes and repeat them willy-nilly, suggesting that Hillary may not be racist but she surrounds herself with really stupid people. (not a good thing for Day One)

when ferarro said that Obama is where he is because he is black i had to stop and think....

suppose a famous first lady, married to a popular president ran for president against a black man named Barack Hussein.

who in their right mind would say the black man with the muslim name would have an advantage?


The sleep of reason begets monsters. -- Francisco Jose de Goya
by joe in oklahoma on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:04:51 PM EST

So If Kinsley's Lesson Is Correct... (none / 0)

We've got two candidates still running. It's a binary choice.

OK, so which one of them is most likely to eliminate (or at least reduce) "bullshit faux outrage" as a political weapon? The "kitchen sink" candidate, ye of the Mark Penn micro-targeting 270.0001 electoral votes school of politics? Or the "hope" candidate, ye of the Axelrod/Plouffe expand-the-pool marketing school of politics? More succinctly, which one is most Crashing the Gate?


by BBCWatcher on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:25:07 PM EST

Re: So If Kinsley's Lesson Is Correct... (none / 0)

Your question answers itself, but I figure you already knew that.


by Carlo on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 04:17:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

  And now the update.  Let the pity party continue.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:29:19 PM EST

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Wow... a posting that I can wholeheartedly agree with! This has been a farce. I suspect we disagree entirely on when it started being a farce, and on what the SD's will do, but either way it's been a farce.

The media has done a huge amount of disservice to both candidates in this race, apparently for the reason of making it a much better and longer-lived news story.


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:49:17 PM EST

Call me brilliant, but I KNEW (none / 0)

I knew when Obama entered the race for the nomination that there was going to be a huge split in the party.  No way would I attribute that to Obama or his supporters - just the way the mop flops.

Hillary herself is candidate that brings ill feelings from many sides, so there's another split.

What I found odd is this:  in the Republican party, there is a coalition that includes the Christian coalition, evangelicals - THAT bunch that has voted lockstep with Republicans since Ronald Reagan.  AND lo and behold, they had "one of them" seeking the nomination - Huckabee.

AND in the Democratic party, there is a coalition that includes the African-Americans - that bunch that has voted sorta lockstep with Democrats since ... how long?  as long as I can remember - ah yes, for sure back to the days of FDR.  AND lo and behold, we have "one of them" seeking the nomination - Obama.

I thought it providential that both parties' coalitions were going to split wide open.  It's possibly one of the most excellent times for a Third Party as I'll ever see in my life.  

A large hunk of the Republican party (evangelicals) are not happy with McCain.  A large hunk of the Democrats are not happy with Obama and Clinton - it's really a pretty even split within the party.

Neither party's nominee can win the GE without their coalitions' voting.

Soooo, what party is going to be able to pull their coalition together?

The Obama supporters are going to jump up and say, "Yes we can"!  Clinton supporters scream, "Yes we will!"

I'm saying - Gore WAS the rightful President to begin with.  It's HIGH time for him to step up to his job!  Hillary and Barack, you two sit down, hush up, and learn to play nice -  and let Al take our country into the future!!!!!


by Southern Mouth on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:08:03 AM EST

Re: Call me brilliant, but I KNEW (none / 0)

Well, I was always hoping for a Clark/Obama ticket myself.  I randomly saw Clark at the Santa Monica Pier, but couldn't bring myself to go bother him.  He was with his grandson and being from L.A., we tend to give celebrities their space.  I really wanted to ask him to run, as if he would listen to me, but I though against it.

Sorry guys, my bad.  Jive Turkey or Bitch, those are your choices in 08.  That's a joke by the way, sort of.


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:19:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't think you can "joke" like that (none / 0)

... not in these times.  I don't grasp the term "Jive Turkey" but I certainly get the Jive part.  And bitch - um.

Then again, maybe you're talking about listing to good music and/or drinking something and going hunting with your favorite female birddog.


by Southern Mouth on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:27:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Call me brilliant, but I KNEW (none / 0)

If the states were going by winner take all, Clinton would be ahead by a long shot. This wouldn't even be close.


by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:59:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (1.00 / 1)

thanks to mydd, the clinton debacle campaign and the corporate media, you have made this campaign a sham.
thanks for all you do for this country.
by lindab on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:12:23 AM EST

Double Standards (2.00 / 2)

In what world are Ferraro's statements "racist" while Rev. Wright's are not?

Oh, our world.  Nevermind.


We told you so! (Next time think before you vote)
by myiq2xu on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:17:37 AM EST

Re: Double Standards (none / 0)

In any world that allows for some historic perspective and where the difference between victims and perpetrators is as clear as sunlight?  


by marcotom on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 03:56:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Double Standards (none / 0)

When did Hillary Clinton become the perpetrator?

It reminds me of the Stokley Carmichael quote about women's role in the civil rights movement. You can bet that would make the four-page memo.


by hctb on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:06:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (2.00 / 2)

We've got to stop this. Both candidates have to step up and tell their supporters to fall in line. If they expect to be taken seriously as leaders, they damn sure better get some unity going in their own campaign. Politics be damned! Let's cut the bullshit.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:17:49 AM EST

Amen (none / 0)

   Agreed; All this energy has a much better target. We keep this up, we'll get McCain.


by Kordo on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:26:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

This is not a threat, it is a fact:  Obama could not get his supporters to fall in line behind Clinton if he kept the pledged delegate lead(which is a 99% certainty) under any circumstances.  It is beyond his control.  How this fact is not understood by the Hillraisers is the ultimate enigma, but there is so much that they fail to understand.


by Carlo on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 04:09:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Honest Question (none / 0)

  Is there any chance that these two eminently qualified candidates can possibly share a Ticket? I'd like to hear from supporters of both on this.

My thoughts:
Pro- It erases any chance of a McCain administration (no disrespect to the man's biography, But he has sold his soul to BushCo); It offers at least the hope that these two powerhouses could combine forces (HillObamator? BarackaHillaton); It gives every Dem a good reason to stop chewing on each other, and start chewing Republicans (who, frankly, just taste better...)
Con- I'm not sure it's safe to have these two in the same room with "The Button" (in all honesty, I think they both have better sense than most of their supporters); How to decide who's going to swallow their pride, and take one for the team. No doubt both camps have arguments on this matter...
 Also, both seem aware of how badly Cheney has tried to re-make the Veep's job description, and will no doubt make sure that their VP is utterly powerless (as it should be); But both will also realize that the other has further political ambitions (neither is too old to contemplate another run in either 2012, or 2016; Obamas only 47 now, Hillary would only be 68 then), and I can see that leading to a great deal of mistrust at best, or willfully working at cross-purposes in a worst-case scenario...

Just thinking out loud. lemme know...


by Kordo on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:23:27 AM EST

Re: Honest Question (none / 0)

Obama as VP is the while holding the pledged delegate lead is the road to his political oblivion, and his supporters would stay home anyway in huge numbers.  So this is not a solution.

Clinton as VP --- does anybody really believe she would accept?  Most importantly, does anyone believe she would accord him the respect he would deserve?  I think not.  Pelosi was on target with that one.


by Carlo on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 04:14:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

In reference to Jerome's Update, I just have to say that I loath Hillary Clinton, always have, and it has nothing to do with Obama.  Obama is my choice by default, not out any great love for the man, but based solely on my distaste for Clinton and every image that her candidacy places in my head.

Call it irrational, call it stupid, but it is there.  And it's not just me.  She reminds me of everything that I hate about politics in this country and no amount of badgering from people here is going to change that.  Not that I run into it much frankly.  Where I'm from, nobody likes Clinton.  But hey, I'm a liberal in California, not a REAL democratic state like Ohio, so who gives a fuck what I think.


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:48:47 AM EST

Calling racism what it is (none / 0)

Ta-Nehisi Coate had a great piece (improbably, in Slate) on Geraldine Ferraro's remarks and the difficulty Americans have in calling racism what it is.

http://www.slate.com/id/2186553/


by AdrianLesher on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:05:32 AM EST

Wonderful Diary Jerome! (none / 0)

I have but a few words to add.

I Wish it was John Edwards alone as the Nominee right now!


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:45:20 AM EST

Re: Wonderful Diary Jerome! (1.00 / 1)

I wouldn't believe that for a minute.  Especially once Edwards endorses Obama, along with Gore.  Clintonistas were more repelled by Edwards than Obama in the beginning by a long shot.  Your only affinity for Edwards comes from his withdrawal.


by Carlo on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 03:54:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

BULLSHIT! (none / 0)

You OBVIOUSLY do not know ANYTHING about ME!

Or... Edwards supporters.


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:02:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wonderful Diary Jerome! (1.00 / 1)

You think Clinton wouldn't have run the "3am Ad" against him?  Or that she wouldn't belittle his lack of foreign policy experience compared to McCain?

Heck, I'm sure Geraldine would have been happy to point out how much easier it is for a white man to get elected in this country.

Trial Lawyer, too young, $400 haircuts, for the war before he was against it... I can go on if you like.


http://www.yawnmccain.com
by enozinho on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 04:01:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The regular offense (none / 0)

Who exactly called whom a racist? Please provide links if possible.

Educate me and the rest of us who haven't had the opportunity to monitor the news so closely.


The truth about McCain
by nstrauss on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:56:00 AM EST

Progressive Politics huh? This is some sad shit... (none / 0)

Yeah I said it. You know, when this race started there was a lot of talk from MYDD and Dailykos about how much better our candidates were and it didn't matter WHO our nominee would be there was confidence about how well we would do against the Republicans. Here we are in March and what could have been a fantastic race to show just how much more we have to offer than the Republicans has now turned into the most vicious and childish contest of name-calling, fear mongering, and quite frankly idiotic behavior on BOTH sides.  Tell me all of you Hillary and Obama supporters (Im an African American Obama Supporter)..what THE FUCK happened? First we had the best candidates. And now after a few contests now we're saying NEITHER OF OUR CANDIDATES CAN BEAT MCCAIN!?!?!?!? How the fuck did we get from we can't lose to OMFG WERE GOING TO LOSE THE GE!!!!!!!! /wrists?  This site and other sites are supposed to be about Progressive Politics. We're supposed to have the best policies, we're supposed to have the best perspective on whats best for our country. Now look at us. No wonder Republicans kick our asses time and time again. Look how the fuck we're acting. We have a HISTORIC opportunity here and we're pissing it away over bullshit. Period. Yes this post is strongly worded but I can't take it anymore. Im ashamed of what the "progressive" blogosphere has become: a bunch of whiny children who would rather insult each other and point fingers than fight the real enemy who is better organized and unified and hell bent on sending our country into ruin.

As far as HRC is concerned the bottom line is that she ran a campaign based on inevitability and only working the "Big States". The same Bob Shrum-like strategy that failed in 2000 and 2004. Obama put the 50 state strategy laid out by Howard Dean to great use and ran a campaign based on the premise that we can change our country. Now it could be a load of crap and it just might be. But THAT platform has resonated with people and there seems to be overall support for the type of politics that hes peddling. Like it or not.

As far as the BHO campaign, they should have seen this Reverend Wright bullshit coming. I have no idea what they were thinking and who's responsible for campaign messaging, but they really dropped the ball on this one. Yes Fox News will have "God Damn America" snippet in a 24/7 loop from now until November to add on the idea that Obama is an unpatriotic Jihadist plant hell bent on spray painting the Crescent moon and star of Islam on the side of the White House.  The MSM doesnt care about facts, only sensationalism and we all know the Media is so far from Liberal its laughable. But if WE out here in the "real world" know this then someone on Obama's campaign better start sharpening the knives now because the Rethugs are going to bring the pain and Camp Obama better be ready to do Political Mortal Kombat.

IF Obama is the Nominee and based on the numbers it seems very likely, are you telling me that Hillary shills are so narrow minded and petty that because their candidate lost even though she had every advantage possible that they would rather HELP John "BOMB IRAN" McCain become president? You mean after all your talk of being "progressive" and "democratic" that because Obama WHO IS A PROGRESSIVE ran a better campaign than Hillary Who is a DLC "Centrist", that when it comes right down to it your "progressiveism" is only skin deep?

IF Hillary Clinton becomes the nominee and based on the numbers her only option is to win by super delegate and she pulls it off (because the truth is that there's a large segment of White America who will N E V E R vote for an African American candidate no matter how well qualified and would rather see more recession, more economic crisis, more of our kids maimed and killed in a senseless war than vote for a "colored man") are we Obama shills going to enable the Republicans to Win the white house AGAIN by sitting on our asses come election day?

We need each other. If Obama is the nominee he's going to need all the Hillary shills in his corner . If Hillary is the nominee she's going to need all the Obama shills in her corner. All that really matters is that come Nov 2, MORE OF THE MAP NEEDS TO BE BLUE. Period, end of story. Each candidate has their own set of weakness and negatives. Each candidate can put some states in play that the others cant. Thats a fact. I would have loved an Obama/Clinton | Clinton/Obama ticket because that would be a force to be reckoned with but thats all dead at this point.

The bottom line is simply this. If the losing side doesn't shake it off after their candidate loses the nomination and does nothing to prevent McCain from being President, the WE DESERVE EVERYTHING WE GET. E V E R Y T H I N G. A third war? Yep. More economic ruin? Yep. More "signing statements"? yep. Rightwing Supreme Court justices? Yep. More lies from our govt? Yep.

We need to collectively get over ourselves.


by mjamal97 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:50:59 PM EST


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