Writers Strike at DailyKos

This is an open letter to the progressive blogosphere.  This is cross-posted and on the Recommended List at DailyKos.com

I've been posting at DailyKos for nearly 4 years now and started writing diaries in support of Hillary Clinton back in June of last year.  Over the past few months I've noticed that things have become progressively more abusive toward my candidate and her supporters.

I've put up with the abuse and anger because I've always believed in what our on-line community has tried to accomplish in this world.  No more.  DailyKos is not the site it once was thanks to the abusive nature of certain members of our community.  

I've decided to go on "strike" and will refrain from posting here as long as the administrators allow the more disruptive members of our community to trash Hillary Clinton and distort her record without any fear of consequence or retribution.  I will not be posting at DailyKos effective immediately.  I will not help drive up traffic or page-hits as long as my candidate - a good and fine DEMOCRAT - is attacked in such a horrid and sexist manner not only by other diarists, but by several of those posting to the front page.

Instead, I will put my energy into posting at sites where my efforts aren't routinely trashed, spammed and ridiculed by a handful of angry, petty and spiteful folks who clearly have too much time on their hands.  

This is a strike - a walkout over unfair writing conditions at DailyKos. It does not mean that if conditions get better I won't "work" at DailyKos again.  As a regular contributor to the discourse in our community, I would certainly hope to take part in the conversation at DailyKos again some day if we ever get to the point where we're engaging each other in discussion rather than facing off in shouting matches. But not now. Writers need a safe place to reach out and exchange ideas, to communicate and challenge one another. DailyKos should be that place, but its tone, its essence has evolved into something ugly and destructive. Good writers can't survive in that kind of atmosphere.  Democrats shouldn't have to put up with that from fellow Democrats.

Sadly, the majority of the administrators have allowed this hostile environment to develop in our online community for anyone who isn't planted firmly in the Obama camp.  They've routinely ignored personal attacks and allowed disruptive, spam-like posts to go unchecked whenever anyone expresses support for Hillary or challenges something their candidate has said or done.  There are however several front-pagers who have managed to avoid taking part in the attacks on Hillary and for that I'm grateful.  But the site has grown to the point where they simply can't - or won't monitor it.  

As a result, our community has become little more than an echo chamber with an attitude that harkens back to the early days of Dubbya's administration - yer either with us or yer a'gin us, heh!  The attackers and disrupters are no better than Chris Matthews with their sexism, hate, lies, and obsession with bashing - all - things - Hillary.

No, I won't post specific attacks here. That would just be repeating the lies and the hate, but I will note that one of my fellow Kossaks (someone with whom I thought I could agree to disagree) went so far as to suggest that others try to dig up real life information on the pro-Hillary members of our community.  To what end?  Was his aim to find enough information on us to try to get us fired from our jobs and leave our families homeless - or worse?  Suggesting that they dig up real life information on us is the lowest form of intimidation and goes way beyond the limits of all things civil and reasonable.  It's nothing more than the worst form of thuggish, hateful and intimidating behavior toward other members of our community.  

Now in all fairness, that diarist saw just how far over the line he went with that post and eventually took it down.  But the fact that he posted it in the first place shows us the kind of mob mentality that has been allowed to develop, grow and fester at DailyKos.

Either way, is that the kind of behavior that Obama would be proud of?  Do the venomous attacks and lies about fellow Democrats represent him and all he stands for in an accurate and fair manner?  Does this spiteful and vindictive behavior reunite our party?  Would outing this working mother represent hope?  Would it bring about change?  Would Obama encourage that sort of anger, bullying, intimidation and hate from his followers toward another Democrat and her supporters?  Do those followers of his help his cause at the end of the day?

I have been working for decades to get countless good Democrats elected - going back to the early `70s when I stuffed envelopes and walked precincts for George McGovern (ok so I was 10 back then but I still helped and gladly - Nixon sent several of my uncles to Vietnam).  The causes I've worked for are those which Obama's followers at DailyKos claim to care about.  As a Yellow-Dog-Democrat and a progressive, I am deeply saddened to see what's happened to our community.  

I've also been a posting to discussion boards and blogs since the mid-90s, and have worked for and written about a wide range of causes from: women's rights; the environment; an end to the genocide in Darfur; benefits and decent equipment for our troops; an end to domestic violence; the protection of children; education; strengthening our economy; healthcare; impeachment; alleviating poverty; peace... the list goes on and on and on.  Many of those diaries have generated hundreds and hundreds of comments - several having topped the thousand comments mark (take THAT Keith Olbermann!).

But let me make one thing crystal clear here - this is not a GBCW post. If and when the community I once respected and of which I considered myself a valued member returns to its roots and stops attacking and maligning Hillary and other good Democrats in such a hateful and destructive manner, I'll be happy to return as an active member of what used to be the online community of progressive activists.  It is my hope that the day will come sooner rather than later.

Until that day, I'll participate in other sites such as MyDD & Talk Left etc., and focus my energy on building them up to help fill the void that DailyKos has left in the progressive blogosphere.

Until then, I'll take up the WGA strike motto: "We write. You wrong." when it comes to DailyKos, and say the following to anyone reading this diary right now...

If you're sick of the way Hillary - a good and decent Democrat - has been vilified and attacked... if you've EVER recommended one of my dairies on this or any other site then please join me in this effort.  Let's take a stand here and now and tell the world we will no longer remain silent in the face of the sexism, anger, irrational hate, lies and attacks against Hillary.  Nor will we add to the bottom line of a site that continues to lead the charge in fueling it.

The double standards, the distortions, the hateful, irrational, personal attacks, and the lies about Hillary and her long and distinguished record of public service stop here - and they stop now.

So I hereby announce the formation of a new labor union - The American Federation of Concerned Bloggers (AFCB).  

This is a writer's strike - who'll join me on the picket line?

By the way...

Are you current on your union dues?

Pony-up folks.

U P D A T E

Here's that video I tried to post in the comments. I wasn't going to post it in the body of the diary but what the heck - we're all friends here right? :) I really am going to miss posting at DailyKos. The fact that I made it up onto the Rec List over there tonight gives me hope that we can come together again as a community when the time comes to take out John McCain in the general election.

UPDATE 2

I should have included this intitation earlier - please join us over at our Yahoo discussion group where we share info on the campaign and support each other when things get a bit harsh on the blogs.

Hillarys Voice.

Anyone who asks gets in so come on by :o)

UPDATE 3

Marc Ambinder (Time) has something up about our writers strike - check it out

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/03/prohillary_writers_on_strike_a.php


Display:


Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 30)

Great job, Alegre.  And I hope your sincere sentiments are received as you intended them.


by susanhu on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:09:03 PM EST

Definitely seconded! (2.00 / 16)

I don't know how Alegre was able to stand it there for so long, but I'm glad she finally told those Kos Boyz ***holes just why they've ruined what was once a good blog. But whatever, I'm done with Kos. I'm glad there are places like MyDD where the community actually cares about promoting progressive values! :-)


Make history with Hillary today! :-)
by atdleft on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:19:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's what I was thinking (2.00 / 3)

What we used to know as Daily Kos vanished months ago.
I wish someone could solve the mystery as to why they killed it off.  Was there a monetary offer that couldn't be refused?   I can't imagine anything else.
by earthoat on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:23:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:dKos Mystery (2.00 / 4)

My $.02? Quite a few folks totally lost their moral compass.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:37:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:dKos Mystery (2.00 / 1)

....lost their moral compass both on blog sites and in the media!  It's crazy.

I think this primary has gotten the best of us, whether you are an Obama supporter or a Clinton supporter.  It's gotten to the point where there is more anger directed at the Clintons than at Bush!!  What happened to us as Democrats.  We are tearing each other apart.  

When all this messiness settles, let's hope DailyKOS goes back to being what it was months ago.


by findthesource on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:59:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I would never go back (2.00 / 2)

they should never allowed it to mutate into this. and it's been going since summer.


by earthoat on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 11:26:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Remember the"Clitnon" incident? (2.00 / 2)

One guy kept spelling Hillary's last name as "Clitnon."  He claimed it was a typo.  Except he never made this typo when writing about Bill, only Hillary.
People kept commenting, and he kept doing it.  Finally a friend of mine made a huge issue about it.   His posting privileges were revoked.
by earthoat on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 11:38:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Tht is, the guy who complained (2.00 / 2)

lost his posting privileges.  The Clitnon guy was part of the dKos inner circle, and was proteced.


by earthoat on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 11:39:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Definitely seconded! (none / 0)

Well, that's definitely not the high road.


by mattw on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:17:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 15)

Agree. Alegre has been a tireless advocate of progressive causes, and I support this strike 100%.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:20:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 9)

I dont even click the urls if it is pointing to dkos. I feel it will be another factless, shameless hypocrite trying to point me to some junk about Messiah.

Such vile websites should not be clicked.


by Sandeep on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:40:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 8)

Well, here I am - I'm with you guys!  Thought I had a myDD account since I've been reading this site since the days when Daily Kos was just a spinoff blog, but I guess I always just lurked.  Now officially commenting.  No more Kos for the foreseeable future.  I protested many times.. but nothing was done.  Let 'em fight amongst themselves.


by daria g on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 11:52:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am DCDemocrat at dkos. (2.00 / 3)

Beltway Dem here.  Mike Meyer in real life.  I am sick and tired of daily kos.  After four years there, I am totally fed up.  It would be regrettable if Big Orange sunk as the result of this strike, it would be tragic, but I wouldn't shed a surfeit of tears.


Hillary Clinton: America's First Woman President!
by Beltway Dem on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 11:08:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, please (2.00 / 0)

Do you really think that abour 30 or 40 (maybe) posters, not all of whom were even intermittent diariasts will cause the collapse of DK?

Are you really that self important?

Do you really think that a site with tens of thousands of regular posters will even statistically notice your absence?

Heck, I've seen q fair number of "strikers" over there this AM posting.

Some strike.  Already crossing the 'picket' lines......


by Robert in WV on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:24:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, please (none / 0)

So why are you posting about it?


by No Blood for Hubris on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 05:19:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A Crusade of Ignorance (none / 0)

nothing less


"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
by Lefty Coaster on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 04:05:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This was just picked up by FOX News (2.00 / 3)

Not that I would ever watch Fox News.

Can Olbermann be far....    oh, nevermind.

You have my support.


by sgary on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 07:34:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Goodbye Yellow Brick Road (2.00 / 13)

Someone posted this in the comments at dKos and it actually brought tears to my eyes!

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/43Ho_6C_fM4&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/43Ho_6C_fM4&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:09:29 PM EST

Sorry - Here's the Link (2.00 / 13)

I forgot you couldn't post video in the comments here - here's the link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43Ho_6C_f M4


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:10:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Alegre (2.00 / 5)

I meant to ask you over at DailyKos, how do we sign up for the yahoo site for Hillary bloggers??
by the way, I left too!
by Maole on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:59:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre (2.00 / 4)

sorry, I forgot, I was hopefulcanadian over there.


by Maole on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:06:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please Join Us At HillarysVoice (2.00 / 5)

I think this is what you meant right?  Our yahoo group has over 230 members so far and everyone's welcome to join us.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HillarysVo ice/

Just submit a request to join and one of our moderators will approve it in paretty short order.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:37:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please Join Us At HillarysVoice (2.00 / 2)

yes thank you!!  I'll be heading over there ASAP :)


by Maole on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 11:03:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre (none / 0)

I tried to sign up at the Yahoo site but couldn't get through.  There is something buggy going on between me, my password and Yahoo.


by Radiowalla on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:37:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry - Here's the Link (2.00 / 2)

It's perfect .. ;) - !


by Briana on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:08:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Alegre, I just wanted to tell you that I broke (2.00 / 5)

my personal pledge to not go to DKos until after the primary just to rec your diary. Less than one minute there and I was ready to punch my fist through my monitor. The top rec'd diary there by JeffLieber calls your diary a "stinking piece of shit" in the body of the diary, yet there it sits on top of the rec list. A more perfect example of an admin sponsored  thugfest cannot be found. I used to love that place. Now it's just an ugly shadow in my mind.  


I proudly support Hillary Clinton for President of the United States!
by Rumarhazzit on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:41:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tom Watson nails it (2.00 / 2)

He writes:

"Sadly, the very comments on Alegre's strike post over at dKos - where
leader Markos Moulitsas has become increasingly harsh in his attacks
on Senator Clinton - prove her case for the walk-out. And thus far, 68
Kos writers have joined the strike...Mark Ambinder and Jake Tapper
have more. And don't ignore the mirror post at MyDD, where many of the
ex-Kossacks have decamped for more balanced discussions."

http://tomwatson.typepad.com/tom_watson/ 2008/03/the-left-splits.html


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:14:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Count me in, too. (2.00 / 4)

I've been right on the verge for a while now. But I couldn't resist one last look this morning. You must have touched a nerve. Your diary has scrolled completely off the front page, but it sure did set off a shit-storm. I don't know if we should ever go back, even if it calms down over there. Traffic to dKos directly benefits Kos, and he is burning his bridges as fast as he can. His front page posts have been vicious toward HRC, and by not discouraging the behavior of some of the most offensive posters, he has tacitly endorsed their behavior. I'm sure he thinks that everyone who has been run off by the immature Johnny-come-lately attackers will come back, just like Obama and his supporters assume that Obama will get all of HRC's votes. But sometimes, when you go too far, there is a price to pay.  


by georgiapeach on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 09:46:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 16)

Kos has become a shill for Obama and it is exemplified by the fact that the twerp has not retracted his poorly researched accusations of racism on the part of the Clinton campaign.

His Web site is a hate site; there is no dialog and anyone that questions that Obama is lord is attacked. He and his admins have been complicit in it all.

His 15 minutes will be up soon, and I can smell the stench of his site from here.


Elect Hillary!
by owl06 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:11:03 PM EST

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 13)

I don't want to give anyone an excuse to mess with our effort here tonight so let's not trash folks too roundly ok? ;o)


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:13:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 14)

I mean every word of it.


Elect Hillary!
by owl06 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:15:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 9)

Yeah - I know.

Wasn't disagreeing with you ;o)


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:24:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 5)

Alegre,

Goldberry (aka: Riverdaughter at the Confluence) would like to crosspost your diary.  Is that OK?


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:34:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 7)

Goldberry is another excellent writer who was run out of town from dKos by Obamabots. Spread the word!


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:46:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 6)

Actually Goldberry was one of the most talented writers to ever grace that site with her work.  Other talented thinkers and writers have drifted away since last fall and left the space to be filled by the barely literate.  It's a crying shame.


by Tolstoy on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:10:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 4)

Agreed. I immensely enjoyed her humor and "Cocktail Hour."


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:23:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 3)

Aha! I was wondering what happened to Goldberry. I read her writing and the "Cocktail Hour" the first time I discovered what a blog was. And then I couldn't find it anymore!
DKos didn't seem so crazy mean back then. And it wasn't all that long ago.
by rrs11215 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 11:57:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (none / 0)

http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com

The link above will take you to Goldberrys blog.


by Tolstoy on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 06:16:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 3)

Aboslutely!  

Tell her I'm honored that she wants to cross-post it.  And thank her for helping to get the word out on this effort!


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 11:12:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 5)

Alegre,

Goldberry just posted her diary in its entirety on her site.  The post (starting with her comments welcoming the striking union members to her blog) is here:

http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/ 03/14/welcome-union-members/#comment-369 3


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:50:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 4)

Thanks! I have added it to my favorites. Thanks and many blessings to Alegre. What a relief to read such a sane person's work. I have joined the strike - it will be hard but I don't want them to get a red cent from me.


by georgiast on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:31:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 8)

"Was his aim to find enough information on us to try to get us fired from our jobs and leave our families homeless - or worse?"

This works both ways, algere, as Bush and Cheney are finding out.

And what the hell happened to Kos, anyway, how did this happen, it's like someone, or something took over that site, invasion of the body snatchers, or such...


by Marsha1 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:14:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 9)

recently they have been threatening to stalk us into the real world.


Elect Hillary!
by owl06 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:17:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 6)

Not to mention the ridiculous, baseless accusations that anyone who supports Hillary is a paid shill. If that's true, there's tens of millions of us! LOL!


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:49:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 1)

paid shill.. sounds like kos.


Elect Hillary!
by owl06 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:16:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 0)

Is this true? Cause I could really use the cash...


by jerseygirl on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 07:57:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 8)

My guess but I can't prove it...

Twenty-somethings with Blackberry's and waaaaaaaaaay too much time on their hands.

Taking the semester off perhaps?


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:25:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Channel Rush Limbaugh Much? (none / 0)

You forgot the America-hating latte-dinking Volvo-driving body-piercing stuff. (BTW - Your RNC check is in the mail.)
by defibialater on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:23:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 0)

The vast majority of comments I see at dKos are considerate and accepting of alternate viewpoints. How would you feel if someone said that about this site, and substituted "Hillary" for "Obama"?

What everyone everywhere needs to do is think about what it would be like if they were the minority, posting against the grain.


by mattw on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:19:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 0)

WOW! I don't come by here often, and I'm amazed at what I see. You people are a bunch a sore losers.

Hillary lost... Get over it.

She should take a cue from Edwards and get out. The sooner she does, the better it will be for our Democratic Party in November.

SHEESH


I can live with doubt and uncertainty. I'd rather live not knowing than to have answers that are wrong. -- Richard Feynman
by Jimdotz on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 09:48:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bye Bye DKos...but with one last comment! (2.00 / 14)

My problems with Barack Obama.

He never delivers.

Barack Obama promises "change", but when you look at his record...where something more than words are important, he's MIA.

Let's start at the beginning...the one moment upon which he has built his entire campaign...his "good judgment about Iraq"...

(From No More Apples and Huffington Post)

"9/11 widow Kristen Breitweiser:

But back in '02, for those of us who dared to speak out against President Bush and his war in Iraq, we stood virtually alone. There was no resounding chorus of people calling "bullshit" on Bush's folly. No, back in 2002 you were called unpatriotic if you dared to question the president; labeled as helping the terrorists if you raised doubt about his divine call to action.

Now forgive me, but I do not recall the help (or the voice) of any Barack Obama from Illinois. Indeed, I cannot recall hearing or feeling the impact of any one speech from the Illinois Senator. Did he attend the rally on the mall in Washington? The marches and protests in NYC? Did he conduct national press interviews? Did he write any editorials? Organize any protest rallies? Mobilize the people? Did he write any petitions? If he did, I never saw any of them.

Yet according to Barack Obama, because he spoke out in 2002 against the war in Iraq, he is better qualified to be president."

ALL TALK.  NO ACTION.

And the reports of Barck Obama when he allegedly took the politcally expedient route and voted "present" on any number of issues - many of those related to women's rights and pro-choice.   (Don't get me started on him pressing the "wrong button" on several important votes, too!)

YOU DON'T WIN WARS BY TAKING A SOFT POSITION.

And his non-support of Ned Lamont.  Sorry, but I was in CT and we were looking for strong Dem support.  What did Obama do?  He hid.  That's right.  He had a book signing in NY one day, with a free day inbetween a campaign stop in Mass for his good friend and speech coach, Deval Patrick.  The last time I looked, CT was inbetween NY and Mass., but Barack Obama stifted CT Dems and never stepped foot in CT.  Why?  Because he would have been pressed for an endorsement of Ned Lamont and not his mentor Joe Lieberman.  

BARACK OBAMA HID INSTEAD OF TAKING A STAND FOR DEMOCRATS IN CONNECTICUT.  

And now, his desire for people to stop thinking about his involvement with Rev. Wright.  He says he wasn't in church when those vile anti-American rants were spoken...OK, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say, that's nice.

BUT, for me the issue is all of the rest of those twenty years.  On one hand he says Rev. Wrong is his spiritual advisor and through him "found Jesus" (that would mean they were pretty close, don't you think?).  But now he dismisses him as an old man who is now retired.

And what about Obama's two beautiful daughters - sitting there, absorbing all of the anger - and, well, hate - through which Rev. Wrong spouts his sermons.

And, good heavens, his campaign has "spiritual advisors" but it's just a laundry list of people who don't do anything?

PLEASE!

In 2004 I was one of those who thought wonderful things about Barack Obama after his stirring speech at the Democratic National Convention.  But this guy needs a lot of work.   I truly believe that he knows that but his ego got the best of him and he decided now was his time.

I pray that it won't be.  We need strong, consistent leadership and experience to get us out of the mess that George W. Bush has gotten us into.  And Barack Obama is NOT READY FOR PRIME TIME.

IMHO


by Shazone on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:12:00 PM EST

Re: Bye Bye DKos...but with one last comment! (2.00 / 0)

Look, I'd agree that the anti-HRC sentiment at Dkos is over the top. But, there's a lot of hate here too. This isn't even a candidate diary, and you immediately go after Obama. Not to mention the Rec list over here.

I agree, dkos is bad. But let's watch it over here. Things get pretty ridiculous.


"Don't let it end this way; tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa
by shef on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:20:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not really... (2.00 / 12)

You can't fully compare the atmosphere here to that of Kos. Are there some diaries here that unfairly attack Obama? Sure. But do they ever make the Rec List here? Hardly. And besides, the growth in pro-Hillary sentiment here and at other sites is mostly due to so many pro-Hill bloggers coming to fair-minded blogs like this one to escape the nonstop vitriol at pro-Obama blogs like Kos, TPM, and HuffPost. And frankly, I think what's happening here at MyDD is great! :-)


Make history with Hillary today! :-)
by atdleft on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:33:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not really... (2.00 / 0)

No, the atmosphere here is much more poisonous than DKos. Only here do I find a whole chorus of people proudly proclaiming they will NEVER vote for Obama. They say they would rather have McCain.

I find it hard to believe.


"Don't hate the media, become the media" - Jello Biafra
by LandStander on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:55:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

white flag (2.00 / 5)

You cannot see it but I think tonight we are waving it at MyDD. Join us in laying down the weapons.


by grlpatriot on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:27:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: white flag (none / 0)

Does that mean everyone will play nice? Cause I could go for that...


"Don't hate the media, become the media" - Jello Biafra
by LandStander on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:32:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: white flag (none / 0)

It may take a few days, but yes.


by grlpatriot on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

some conspiracy theorists (none / 0)

see Obama and Lieberman as both belonging to some group together..

at least that is what I have read..


Obama Now Ahead by 86,705 Popular Votes, or 0.25% of Total! (incl. FL and MI)
Crowned King By MSM Because of Hillary's Real Universal Healthcare Program?
by architek on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:08:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: white flag (none / 0)

God, I hope so.


"Don't let it end this way; tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa
by shef on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:44:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not really... (2.00 / 2)

I've seen that on DailyKOS too.  Some voters - on BOTH sides - are taking this too far and only want their candidate.  In fact, wasn't it Michelle Obama herself who said that she would have to give it considerable before voting for HRC should HRC become the nominee??  

To be honest with you, I don't feel like bashing either BHO or HRC in this diary.  I think the point of this diary is that DailyKOS used to be an exchange of ideas in the liberal sense, but now there is too much anger there.


by findthesource on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:26:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not really... (2.00 / 1)

give it considerable 'thought'


by findthesource on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:27:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not really... (none / 0)

Susan Hu Susan Hu Susan Hu  Hu are you kidding?


daninpa
by daninpa on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:45:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

it's not the same (2.00 / 11)

You can get tr'd there for disagreeing or posting something positive about Hillary, there is a bully demand that you agree with some biased opinion or something simply not factual, and you're called really ugly names, and told to fuck off, and to crawl back under your rock, it's ugly. I can take good natured bashing and there are real differences between the candidates. It's also true that Obama hasn't been vetted, more stuff he hadn't mentioned is coming out on Tony and as much as I like Obama, he hasn't been straight on it, he will change his story. I think he's counting on not getting called on his stuff, and I think he's a real politician, playing for points. We admit she's a real politician and most if not all of us admit we don't agree with all her positions and all her votes, so we start admitting that stuff. I want to talk about what they want to do, how they plan to do it, and whether I think they have smart enough people with them to carry it off. I want the best of the two and the one that has the best chance of winning. Most of us would be fine with Obama if he's the nom, if we thought he was being straight and didn't have something that will come out and throw the election to McCain. I agree with Hillary, the most important this is that one of them will win the GE. This character bashing that Obama does himself isn't hopeful to me, seems to me he's playing a game, and lives are worth more than that. She says things people don't like to hear, like he isn't vetted and he isn't prepared, but she mostly talks about how she's prepared herself, what her positions are and who'll she'll be seeking advice from. I truly with he'd do the same, but she's been preparing for the job many years now, and he got started after he got into the Senate. I mean, according to news reports, it's not my opinion.  I'm out of there mainly cause I just can't stand any more nasty personal comments to me.  


by anna shane on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:34:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you know why? (2.00 / 4)

Because I am SO STARVED TO BE ABLE TO EXPRESS MY OPINION without getting troll rated or hidden or told I'm an idiot.

My post represents the pent up frustration I feel in the lack of debate/reality check about Barack Obama.

That's why I'm trying to get in one last shot!


by Shazone on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:37:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you know why? (2.00 / 2)

I think what I take issue to is that there are Obama supporters here who--at least I think--understand that Obama, like any candidate, is flawed.

I guess seeing the rec list, day after day, filled with anti-obama diaries, is a little disheartening for people like me who would gladly vote for either candidate.

The level of vitriol here is such that I'm not sure people are seeing Obama with as much clarity as they believe they are.

After a certain point, I don't think diary after diary on basically the same issues, saying he's without substance, or that he's not Democrat enough, or that, well, you fill in the blank, is vetting, it's just bashing. I've always liked Mydd because it seemed saner and smaller, more managable than dkos. Now, I feel like it's just the Clinton version of dkos. Lots of preaching to the choir, lots of bashing, lots of anti-obama vitriol.

Okay, I think I've started to ramble. HR me into oblivion if you want, but for many of us Obama supporters who do try (and I think if you look back through my comments and diaries you'll see that I do) to comment with respect, it's very frustrating to see only hit diaries on the rec list.


"Don't let it end this way; tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa
by shef on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:38:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you know why? (2.00 / 1)

I appreciate anyone who comments respectfully.  We need to talk about legitimate differences of opinion.  What saddens me is the fact that when I read a pro-Hillary diary there are usually tons of incredibly hateful comments.  Obama's supporters have made the candidate distasteful to me, which is quite sad.  I voted for him in 2004 and was really excited to do so, but not this time.  Most of the reason is lack of experience, but some of it is because I see so many hateful supporters.


by mlr701 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 11:39:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My dues are CURRENT!!!! (2.00 / 11)


by Shazone on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:13:21 PM EST

Re: My dues are CURRENT!!!! (2.00 / 10)

Mine too.  I've NEVER given as much to ANY campaign before, even though it means I really have to tighten my belt to do so, as I'm a non-profit worker.


It does not take many words to tell the truth Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
by Gabriele Droz on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:19:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Shhhh. Don't tell my husband! (2.00 / 6)

Thank God I pay the credit card bills!


by Shazone on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:32:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have the same problem. (2.00 / 5)

My husband's for Obama too.  But I'm the one that keeps the books.


by dbrown04 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:50:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, mine is for Hillary...but doesn't.... (2.00 / 4)

believe in spending money!!  Ha!


by Shazone on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:20:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shhhh. Don't tell my husband! (2.00 / 3)

I contribute for me and then I do another one for my husband.  I don't think he is quite how much are contributions are adding up to, although he knows how frequently hey happen.  LOL


by cjbardy on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:17:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 13)

I'm with all the fine writers here who have finally taken enough abuse.  I sincerely hope that MyDD can handle all of the traffic that is now heading its way.

Izarradr


by izarradar on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:13:40 PM EST

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 7)

I think they can handle it.  Traffic's been steadily climbing here for weeks now - the worse it got over at daily kos the more time we spent posting here.

This site is far and away a better place for discussing the issues and supporting good Democrats.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:44:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Insulting to a fellow human being is unacceptable (2.00 / 14)

It has become a common practice to dehumanized Hillary Clinton at dailyKos. The insulting started by targeting Clinton, and then spread to targeting the writer of any pro-Hillary diary. The last straw for me is the insulting on the Hillary voter's intelligent.

The following comments are sample of the insulting to voters' decision that were allowed and praised at dailyKos.

=============
The Supers can see with their own eyes ... (0+ / 0-)
Hillary got the under-educated - poverty - latino and old women vote.
Obama has the higher - educated - grass roots - money vote and youth vote.

Tell me .... which holds the best and brightest future for America .. ?
=
===========
can you even imagine (1+ / 0-)
the sort of person who would actually vote for clinton at this point? kind of makes you rethink universal suffrage, doesn't it? maybe hungry people have too little oxygen in the brain. on the off chance that the narcissistic senator from NY wins the nod, i don't even know how i'll find the strength to vote in the general.

=============

Every American citizen own this country. Every man are create equal, and everyone is entitle to their own right, young or old, rich or poor.

dailyKos has allowed this kind of insulting comments to go unchecked. As we cannot have a civil conversation at dailyKos anymore, I see no point to waste my time there. I seek to have my discussion about our country stage of affair elsewhere.


by JoeySky18 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:14:04 PM EST

Re: Insulting to a fellow human being is unaccepta (2.00 / 0)

Isn't that what Bill O'Reilly did when attacking DailyKos? He hand picked the worst of the worst comments and tried and pass it off as the dominant trend.


"Don't hate the media, become the media" - Jello Biafra
by LandStander on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:57:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Insulting (2.00 / 3)

You know you see these types of comments.


by grlpatriot on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:24:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Insulting (2.00 / 4)

I saw tons of them, and even after cutting way back on the amount of content I read there.  It's not liberal or progressive in the least, to dehumanize political opponents like that.


by daria g on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 11:58:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Insulting (none / 0)

Yeah, I'm sick and tired of the comments at a certain site which invariably depict one candidate as the Messiah and his supporters as cultists.  This writer's strike is about MyDD, right?


by ficus1 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 11:11:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Insulting to a fellow human being is unaccepta (none / 0)

But Bill O'Reilly never had an interest in the discussion on DKos. These are people who have long been Democrats and having been dealing with consistent abuse. I personally have dealt with it on numerous occasions. That comment listed above is typical, not just the worst example possible.


Words are not action. ~ Hillary Clinton
by bowiegeek on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 08:45:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Insulting to a fellow human being is unaccepta (2.00 / 6)


Yeppers.

It's sad that the hardcore Obama campaign support seems to run to a remarkably large extent on resentment and jealousy.

The amount of non-Obamagitprop material that is worth anything has also declined precipitously at DKos.  It's becoming pretty pointless to visit the place.


by killjoy on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:37:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Insulting to a fellow human being (2.00 / 3)

I agree and I am starting to get suspicious.  People at my job (law firm), many friends, neighbors, two or more family members, they ALL have nasty things to say about HRC supporters. But I don't blame them because the media gives them a nasty impression of HRC supporters.  CNN gives the impression that all of her voters are blue collar (untrue) and I even saw one tag read "Obama and the Archie Bunker problem" which totally implies that blue collar automatically means racists and that Obama will have a hard time getting that vote.  It was insulting.  

I think some of the harshness directed at HRC and directed at her voters is as a resut of the media bias.  Just my humble opinion.


by findthesource on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:38:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 14)

Howdy all!

I support this - Kos has become the worst example of political mob mentality. I'm new here but I hope that this is the kind of place I want to hang around.

I'd like to see the discourse on myDD as an example of how people can support a candidate, passionately, and disagree, passionately, yet not resort to mudslinging and name-calling and attacks. I saw a lot of comments over there equating the behavior on this site to the worst behavior on the Great Orange Satan.

Let's show them that they are wrong about that.


by OtherLisa on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:14:59 PM EST

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (none / 0)

You have GOT to be kidding. No mud-slinging and attacks on Obama. At this site? WOW....the mind reels. BTW, I don't think anyone at Kos misses the "striking writers". Do you even realize how silly that sounds? But I suppose calling yourselves "Petulant Whiners for Hillary" wouldn't look very good.
by defibialater on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:33:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (none / 0)

Wow. Okay. What part of my comment did you find obscure or confusing? I'm new, I'm expressing my hopes for a more civil dialog.

Thanks for proving my point too.


by OtherLisa on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 03:29:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 14)

count me in, alegre. diaries and comments over there are an exercise in futility. nobody left there will engage on the issues- it's a reality-free zone now. I posted a diary on the florida delegate selection process- NOTHING about obama or hillary- and all I got was spam in the comments. if they ever calm back down over there I'll start diarying and commenting again, but in the current environment it's a waste of time. the crudest misogynistic language imaginable is applauded as witty repartee. reminds me of a college dorm full of guys who can't get dates.
by campskunk on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:15:03 PM EST

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 15)

I so agree Alegre.  I wrote my GBCW diary at Kos last night, and the responses were just, incredible - in the most negative way, except, for course for those of Hillary supporters.

Count me in.  I've had it with that site that reminds me of the youth movement back where I grew up.  We need to do better than that.

And it starts with true dialogue, which no longer has a place at that site.


It does not take many words to tell the truth Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
by Gabriele Droz on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:15:51 PM EST

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 11)

I'll join you Alegre.  
Obama is not the only one who can vote Present.
I'm present, willing, and able.

hopscotch1997(Scotch)

Put me on your strike list.


by Scotch on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:17:30 PM EST

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 4)

Scotch you rock!  Good on ya! :o)


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:49:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 13)

I'm in. 'deleted my Kos bookmarks.


by Pacific John on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:17:52 PM EST

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 14)

I'm on board with this strike. It isn't a discourse at kos anymore, it's a slug-fest, and I don't think I'm helping either candidate or the Democratic Party, to which I've belonged more than forty years, by contributing my thinking. I dislike reading hateful remarks about any of our candidates, and I really don't like being personally cursed out and bullied, even in writing.  I find it threatening and it's distressing, and I don't predict any improvement. Maybe if Obama's supporters just talk with themselves they'll be happier and less inclined toward hate speech.  I can't correct every Hillary smear anyway, there are far too many.  Apologizes to Obama supporters who aren't nasty and brutish, there is too much for you to clean up too.  No one owns enough doughnuts to do the job.  


by anna shane on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:18:10 PM EST

I'm with Alegre (2.00 / 15)


Give it up for Hillary - Donate
Hillary's Bloggers
by NewHampster on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:18:42 PM EST

We ALL are now! (2.00 / 8)

Pass the strike signs, please! ;-)


Make history with Hillary today! :-)
by atdleft on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:21:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We ALL are now! (2.00 / 9)

solidarity.


Elect Hillary!
by owl06 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:22:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Solidarity forever... (2.00 / 7)

Solidarity forever. Solidarity forever. The truth is marching on!

Hey, I even have our strike song ready for us! Let's stay together in solidarity and tell the Kos Boyz what they have to do to ever get our business back!


Make history with Hillary today! :-)
by atdleft on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:28:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Grab a sign (2.00 / 7)

but don't kill the bandwidth here


Give it up for Hillary - Donate
Hillary's Bloggers
by NewHampster on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:23:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm with Alegre (2.00 / 2)

I love it!


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:26:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 7)

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh146 /NewHampster/noKosno.jpg

(This is supposed to be a picket sign, but I have NO idea how to make the image show up!)


by izarradar on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:27:05 PM EST

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (1.40 / 5)

This site is to Obama supporters as DailyKos is to Clinton supporters. How deliciously ironic.


by carbocation on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:29:39 PM EST

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 7)

If you think that, you have no idea what dKos has been like.


by Pacific John on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:33:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 1)

I think every site has some of that...um....let's call it candidate fever. :D  There are people everywhere who are so focused on their candidate that calm discussions are no longer possible.

I'm fortunate at least in that I'm not either an Obama or a Clinton supporter so that it has been less bothersome to me. But I've still been attacked on both sites for my bias towards my candidate (Obama or Clinton depending on which they want to assign me).

It seems worse on DKos to me. But I'm unsure if that is just because of the larger volume there. It would be an interesting experiment to post the same pro-candidate diary on each site (here pro-Obama and there pro-Clinton) using generalities that could be applied to either and just substituting names. Then sit back and see which site skins you alive first.


If Dems take away my primary vote, they don't deserve my general vote.
by Step Beyond on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:45:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Looking forward to seeing your results. (2.00 / 0)

Please run this experiment.  I'd love to know how it comes out.


by dbrown04 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:57:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Looking forward to seeing your results. (none / 0)

I wonder if I'm a good enough writer to do it or perhaps a good writer would like to volunteer? Or have I blown the experiment by even mentioning it?


If Dems take away my primary vote, they don't deserve my general vote.
by Step Beyond on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 11:53:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How about this for an example (none / 0)

Hillary Clinton was slammed for appearing to endorse John McCain over Obama on national security.

The day before, Barack Obama's security advisor Susan Rice said that neither Obama nor Clinton were ready to take that 3 a.m. call.

Both campaigns said something that will weaken the other in the general election.

So, on mydd, quote extensively from Hillary's interview about the relative readiness of Obama and McCain to handle national security.

On dKos argue that Hilarry was just coming back with a "what do you mean 'we' white man" sort of response.  "I'm ready to answer that 3 a.m. call.   The fall opponent, John McCain is too.  So speak for yourself, Obama."

See what you get.


by dbrown04 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 09:03:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Your timeline is incorrect (none / 0)

Susan Rice made her comment on Tucker on March 5th.    Senator Clinton said she and Senator McCain had a lifetime of experience on March 3rd.  

Will you concede the point that Ms. Rice's comment was a direct response to something Senator Clinton said the day before?  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 09:23:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

OK, forget this example (none / 0)

MBNYC has posted the same diary on dKos and Mydd. They both call for people to agree to vote whichever candidate wins.  We could tally those comments...


by dbrown04 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:59:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Unfortunately (none / 0)

You probably have blown the experiment in that it would be greeted with rose petals since everyone here has been tipped off and Alegre would no doubt use her Yahoo group to urge kid gloves and warm fuzzy sentiments.

It's called "poisining the well" in the world of experimentation.


by Robert in WV on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:41:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 3)

hardly. Have you been troll rated here for making a positive comment about Obama?


by Ga6thDem on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:02:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (none / 0)

Yes.


by amiches on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:41:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Writers Strike at DailyKos (2.00 / 2)

It's been my impression based on some time spent lurking here that the moderators actually.. moderate, and going around slinging the kind of insults that pass for commentary on Daily Kos will get you banned.  Hope this place remains an oasis of sanity.


by daria g on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:01:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]