I think we are losing the point here. Elections are not about who wins, they are about who chooses. We need to see things from the voters point of view. We need to lose the intellectual sophistry that rationalizes according to the interests of our preferred candidate and look at it from the point of view of certifying a delegation from Florida and Michigan which reflects the will of the Democratic voters in those states. We can't have some back room deal that arbitrarily assigns delegates without regard to voter sentiment.

There is no excuse for failure to properly count MI and FL.  Oregon has perfected mail in voting so we know how to do it.  Obama previously approved of mail in voting.  There is no excuse for not doing it.

Obama doesn't want a re-vote because he knows he'd lose.

So, is this happening or what?  Every day there's a different headline.  One say, it's full steam ahead.  The next day, is, not gonna happen.

Make up your friggin' mind, FL!!  Y'all could have avoided this if you played by the rules in the first place!

FL voters obviously want their votes to count, just as any of us would. If their Jan 29 votes won't count, another primary is imperative. Failing that, the Dem party may well lose another election since all the above also applies to MI.

As Hillary says, either count the votes or do it over. It would be unconscionable for the DNC to disenfranchise two states. The DNC cannot afford to be identified as the disenfranchiser.

There are serious legal hurdles here to get a revote in place. I'm beginning to think that the proposal reported by Halperin (seat Florida at a 50% penalty, split Michigan down the middle) is the only workable solution.

Okay, let's get realistic here.

Moreover, only 63% of these primary‐voting Democrats are committed to sticking with our eventual nominee if Florida voters are not counted. That number is dangerously low.

What you are seeing here is about 37% of the primary voters on the Dem side threatening to vote McCain or sit it out if there's no revote in FL.

About 35 of that 37% of these people are Clinton supporters who want to see her win.  They are pissed that she is getting the crap kicked out of her by Obama and are holding out hope that a re-vote will get her back in it.  It isn't surprising at all to see them say that they 'might not' go with the eventual nominee.  

Sour grapes and hard feelings.  They'll come around in the fall.  Those who place their personal and frankly petty little preferences for either candidate above the good of the whole country are being selfish boors, IMO.  

I don't put too much stock in a poll which captures some hurt feelings; trumpeted by a group of hard-core Clinton supporters.  It's hardly evidence of 'dangerous' numbers.

That 50% penalty is just nuts and Hillary should absolutely not accept it. Howard Dean and the DNC are worthless. How dare they penalize Hillary or the voters? The culprits are the state legislators, not the voters or the candidates.

Penalize the voters at you own peril.

I was just looking at the voter handout from the Florida primary and thinking what idiots these people were:

A Special Message from Karen L. Thurman
Friday, January 18, 2008

Dear Florida Democrat,

Florida is in the driver's seat. Despite what the Washington skeptics and pre-programmed pundits predicted, the nation's eyes are turning to our January 29th Presidential Primary. It is important to vote in this election.

There's been a lot of fuss about delegates, but it's time to forget all that and just vote. The nationally respected RealClearPolitics website noted today that the Florida Democratic Primary will "include all the candidates on the ballot, and the entire media universe will be watching the outcome, guaranteeing the Sunshine State a big impact on the presidential race as it hurtles toward a critical moment the following week on Tsunami Tuesday."

Primary Day is not for another 11 days, but Florida Democrats are already voting in strong numbers. More than 200,000 have requested to vote by mail (absentee). Are you one of them? If not, there's still time to sign up.

Click here to request your absentee ballot so you can vote by mail.

You can also choose to vote early in person. In the first week of early voting, several thousand more Democrats than Republicans went to the polls. Let's keep that up! The Florida Democratic Party has a nifty webpage that will help you find your location: www.fladems.com/vote.

Make no mistake, Florida Democrats will be heard on January 29th. The energy and momentum is on the Democratic Party's side nationwide, and Florida is no different. Thousands upon thousands of Florida Democrats are heading to the polls to make their voice heard in the final primary in the country before February 5th (the potentially decisive "Tsunami" or "Super Duper" Tuesday when more than 20 states will hold primaries or caucuses).

Click here to learn how to vote by mail or to find your early vote location. Or just go to the polls on January 29th. Make your voice heard, Florida!

Sincerely,

That being said (oy), counting the initial vote seems unfair, not counting seems unfair, and a do-over seems impossible.  No idea what the right and possible thing to do is.  What is it about this state?

The first number in the final quoted paragraph--59 percent of the voters who actually voted in the too-early primary wanting a new vote--is a direct rebuke to the Clinton campaign's position that the Florida delegation should be seated based on that election. (And that doesn't even account for the hundreds of thousands of voters who, being told the vote wouldn't count for anything, stayed home.

The second number--almost one-third of Florida Democrats expressing a willingness to support McCain in the fall because of this disaster--is a direct rebuke to the Obama campaign's position that any authorized vote of all willing Florida Democrats that isn't perfect shouldn't even be tried.

[Thurman] acknowledged that Obama has had concerns and the Democratic National Committee won't support a proposal unless both candidates also back it.

The Obama obstruction continues....

Let's count the ways that Obama is winning:

1.) Pledged Delegates: (Using AP's numbers, with Obama's count in parenthesis)

Obama: 1,390 (1,411)
Clinton: 1,248 (1,250)

2.) Popular vote: I updated this post with results from Mississippi. I took out the Texas caucuses just to give this the best pro-Clinton spin possible, though I still think the caucuses are a separate contest and need to be accounted for. (Obama ended up winning Mississippi by over 100,000 votes.)

Obama: 13,614,204
Clinton: 12,801,153

3.) Primaries Won: There are 37 total primary contests. All Obama has to do is win three more and he notches the lead in these contests. He can do that easily with just three out of Montana, South Dakota, Oregon, Indiana, and North Carolina.

Obama: 16
Clinton: 12

4.) Caucuses Won

Obama: 14
Clinton: 3

5.) Overall contests Won: It's a 2-1 Obama advantage (includes territories and Democrats Abroad).

Obama: 30
Clinton: 15

6.) Red and Blue States Won (including DC, not including territories or Democrats Abroad):

Obama: 16 Red, 11 Blue
Clinton: 8 Red, 6 Blue

8.) Money Raised (through February)

Obama: $168 million
Clinton: $140 million

So that leaves the Clinton campaign with what, exactly? Big states! Big states! Big states! I addressed that one yesterday.

Team Clinton has nothing except schemes of coup by super delegate, which they apparently think they can do by insulting entire Democratic constituencies and most of our nation's states.

But really, what else do they have? Their campaign is losing by every metric possible.

Let's be clear about the terms being used here.

FL and MI have no delegates right now, by the decision of the DNC. Thus it is impossible for the Obama campaign to "disenfranchise" them. First they'd have to be enfranchised.

"Obstructing" a proposal means blocking it. The Obama campaign hasn't blocked any proposal for a revote, rejecting only the idea of retroactively changing the rules to seat delegates from the January beauty contests.

The Obama camp is not obliged to campaign for a revote, or raise money for it, or help it surmount legal challenges. The revotes may or may not please some people in those states, but their only practical effect is to introduce more delay and confusion into a contest for pledged delegates which, under the rules everyone including the Clinton campaign agreed to, the Obama camp has won.

Clinton supporters, mistaking amorality for toughness and age for experience, often accuse Obama of being naive. Bending over backward to change the rules to help Clinton's doomed strategy of a floor fight by the loser in delegates would indeed be "naive."

If everybody comes to a consensus, the Obama camp has said they'll support a revote. That's generous on their part. They are not obliged to waste one moment or one dollar in the effort to change the rules to help the loser-elect in the contest, Clinton.

Obama and his gang will drag their feet because they know Hillaryt will clock him in Florida.  If he had even a chance of winning, he's be all over this.

What a freakin' hypocrite.  A truly worthless politician!

LOL. I can guarantee you that Obama wants a re-vote in MI, since he didn't get any the first time around.
His showing in Florida will be much better if he gets TO SHOW HIS FACE IN THE STATE THIS TIME.

Trust me, the only person who loses anything in a re-vote his Hillary Clinton.