Please God, what I hope is the final look at the Noodle, I mean NAFTA incident.

Here it is, from the CBC itself.  No conjecture, no speculation, no wishful thinking, no hating on either candidate, no strategery.  Read it for yourself and comment.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/reportsfromabroad /macdonald/20080310.html

For those too lazy to do so, I've summarized the article below.

Bottom line: It looks like the genesis of the story was a Clinton staffer, rather than Goolsbee.  It looks like the Goolsbee angle may have been motivated at least in part by Canadian politics.  (Monroe Doctrine, anyone?)  It looks like the later reports from the Canadian consulate in Chicago were an exercise in CYA.  And it looks like a lot of people saw this story with their hearts rather than with their minds.

If you still don't believe me, please read the article before shooting any flames my way.  The article is either a pretty good account of what happened or the latest piece of the immense conspiracy between Obama, the CBC, and their Republican overlords.  For what it's worth, my money's with William of Ockham.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_R azor


Poll
What is your favorite kind of chocolate?
Bittersweet
Semi-sweet
Milk
White ("Where's the [cocoa powder?]" Thomas Noonan)
Free-range
I don't like chocolate
I don't like inane polls

Votes: 6
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


My impression of this issue (none / 0)

is, and has always been that it was a non-story, that it was mostly concocted by right-wing politicians trying to influence the Democratic nomination and smear both candidates in the process.


John McCain
by MILiberal on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 11:14:57 PM EST

Re: My impression of this issue (none / 0)


  I`ve said it before the CBC is funded by the government and CTV is not.
Wisdom Is The Reward For Listening Over A Lifetime
by gunner on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 11:20:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My impression of this issue (none / 0)

Completely agree.  I just wanted to put it to bed once and for all.  No, not quite: I also wanted to see how many people would choose to believe that the story is part of a conspiracy.  Amusing?  Perhaps.  Frightening?  Definitely.


by carloseljefe on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 11:26:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So what did Goolsbee say? (none / 0)

Goolsbee disputed the wording, but I don't see anyone claiming it wasn't a paraphrase of what he said. I don't see Goolsbee correcting the record here, he just says "it's more about political positioning than a clear articulation of policy plans" is not his phrasing.

There is a pattern here, universal health care that isn't universal, Iraq withdrawal plan that is more of a guideline than a plan.


by souvarine on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 11:31:01 PM EST

Re: So what did Goolsbee say? (none / 0)

Right, completely correct, unambiguously not doubting that for a moment, and I'll even go a step farther.  The job of politicians is to sell ambiguities to potential voters.  That is their raison d'etre, and both Obama and Clinton are good politicians.  Further, I am not disputing what Goolsbee did or did not say/think/feel/believe/hope for/dream about.

BUT, regarding the genesis of the story (which is what my diary was about), if you had read the article, you would have read the following:

"Both candidates were talking about re-opening the agreement and renegotiating certain sections in order to toughen its environmental and labour standards.

When a group of reporters from CTV quizzed [Candian embassy official] Brodie about what such declarations meant to Canada, he apparently replied that Ottawa was not worried. Hillary Clinton's people had been in touch, he said, reassuring Canadian officials that they should not take such campaign rhetoric seriously. A CTV reporter privy to the conversation would later publicly confirm what Brodie said.

But an offhand remark by a political staffer is just a starting point so CTV brought Tom Clark, the network's bureau chief in Washington, into the picture. Clark is known to be on friendly terms with ambassador Wilson.

In short order, Clark contacted Wilson, putting to him the tip from Ottawa. We know this because the embassy later confirmed the call. The actual conversation between the two men remains a private discussion, but by the time Clark went to air Wednesday night, his angle was no longer Clinton. It was Obama."

Thus, the initial story, which was reported to be about remarks made by the Obama camp, was not in fact about remarks made by the Obama camp, and nothing that Goolsbee said changes this.  At best, Clinton can say that Obama said the same thing that she did.  Weird, given her CATEGORICAL denial of such comments.

I stand by my words.


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:15:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So what did Goolsbee say? (none / 0)

Huh? Goolsbee is a key Obama domestic policy advisor, he reassured the Chicago consulate about NAFTA, regardless of Obama's rhetoric.

We know of no one from the Clinton campaign who has given Canada any such assurances. Your quote from the story contains not a single named source, just a second-hand quote from Brodie who may not have known what he was talking about or may have been misheard.  Since you have presented no evidence that the Clinton campaign gave any assurances why is it weird that her campaign would deny having given assurances?

Who cares about the genesis of the story? The issue is who was giving Canada a wink and a nod about NAFTA, and it was Obama, not Clinton. As I mentioned this is not the first time Obama has been caught claiming one thing in public but something completely different in the fine print, in fact it is a habit of Obama's.


by souvarine on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:32:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So what did Goolsbee say? (none / 0)

The genesis is the medium is the message.  If Clinton's staff said it, then it means that she IS saying the same thing as Obama.  Pot, meet Kettle.

It also means that she was flat out lying when she denied having said anything to the embassy.  Since when is outright lying better than casuistry?

It also means that Canada is meddling in our electoral politics.  That is completely unacceptable.

So again, I am not disputing what Goolsbee said.  Whatever he said, he said, but the point remains that his remarks were not the basis of the story.

The forest is what lies hidden twixt all the trees.


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:23:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So what did Goolsbee say? (none / 0)

If Clinton's staffer said anything...

You have provided no proof that Clinton's staffer said anything that contradicted her on NAFTA.  An offhand remark by Ian Brodie does not qualify.

Do you have any additional information beyond that offhand remark by the Chief of Staff (which, I understand, he has formally withdrawn)


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:25:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So what did Goolsbee say? (none / 0)

Fair enough.  I suppose that taking the PM's chief of staff at his word would be a bit naive.  I certainly wouldn't have taken anything Rove said at face value.  That said, the PM's C-o-S categorically did say it, and that is categorically what the story came from.  If we're going to start raising assumptions, how about this one:

Do we have any proof that Goolsbee accurately represented Senator Obama?  The answer of course is no.  I happen to believe that he probably did, but let's be intellectually honest about what we know.


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:12:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So what did Goolsbee say? (none / 0)

"I happen to believe that he probably did, but let's be intellectually honest about what we know."

Wow, you "happen to believe" something that everyone knows to be true... even Goolsbee and the Obama campaign have now admitted that the meeting took place.  Do you also "happen to believe" that the Sun rises in the east ?

"Do we have any proof that Goolsbee accurately represented Senator Obama?"  NO

But, we do have proof that the Obama campaign lied (or deliberately misled) about this meeting on more than 1 occassion.  

For instance: they "denied that he had ever called them, and the report was unfounded" (this would normally leave someone with the impression that Goolsbee didnt meet with the consulate either..so it qualifies as deliberately misleading)

Then, Obama himself said "the canadian government has denied it, and my campaign has denied it...it did not happen"  It most clearly did happen.

I can go on and on!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:57:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So what did Goolsbee say? (none / 0)

Please do, with factual links to support.


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:49:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So what did Goolsbee say? (none / 0)

oookay.... I could easily refer you to the HRC website, but you probably consider that evil, so:

1. 2/27/08 - 'No conversations have taken place' with the Canadian government on NAFTA. "Earlier Thursday, the Obama campaign insisted that no conversations have taken place with any of its senior ranks and representatives of the Canadian government on the NAFTA issue." [CTV, 2/29/08]
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/st ory/CTVNews/20080228/turkey_Gates_080228 /20080229?hub=TopStories

2. 2/27/08 - Obama advisor just said 'hello.' "Goolsbee: Canada's consul general in Chicago contacted him `at one point to say `hello' because their office is around the corner." [ABC, 2/29/08]

3. 2/28/08 - Rice: 'There had been no contact.' "The Canadian ambassador issued a statement that was absolutely false. There had been no contact. There had been no discussions on NAFTA. So we take the Canadians at their word...period." [MSNBC, Susan Rice, 2/28/08]

4. 2/29/08: Sen. Obama: 'It did not happen.' Anchor: "So, completely inaccurate, did not happen, end of discussion." Sen. Obama: "It did not happen." [WKYC TV, 2/29/08]

5. 3/10/08 - Sen. Obama: The meeting did happen, they did discuss NAFTA, but advisor just said Obama wanted to make NAFTA 'stronger for U.S. workers.' "So here's what happens. You've got one of my economic advisors goes and visits a Canadian embassy and they're asking him questions and he says, 'Well, Senator Obama isn't planning to repeal NAFTA, but he wants to amend it to make it stronger for U.S. workers.' The Canadian embassy writes it up as, 'Well, maybe Obama is not as tough on NAFTA as you might think.' And the Clintons start waving this and saying, 'See? Actually, he's the one.'" [Mississippi Rally, 3/10/08]


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 12:50:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Nafta Liar (none / 0)

The Clinton staffer angle has been completely debunked. Unlike Obama who shuffled to cover things up and deny deny deny Clinton encouraged the Canadians to come forward with the name of one of her staffers. The fact that there was deadly silene from Canada proved that  there was NO Clinton staffer.
In the mean time Goolsbee denied there was a meeting, Bill Liar Burton denied there was a meeting and Obama said there is no truth to the story. In fact the basic story that Goolsbee met with the Candian Government was in fact Correct.
Once the memo surfaced  some  memory came back to Goosbee and Burton. In short Obama gulity Clinton innoncent. By th ay the link is an opinion piece nd not a news article.
by coolofthenight on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:45:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Where's the beef? (none / 0)

By whom and where can I find it?  This is the third time that I have heard that it has been "completely debunked," but I have yet to see the evidentiary basis for it.

SHOW ME THE LINK!!!


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:55:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Where's the beef? (none / 0)

Life doesn't come down to a link. The Clinton campaign gave the Candadian Government carte blanche to name the staffer over a week ago. Silence. Case closed.


by coolofthenight on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:24:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Where's the beef? (none / 0)

Come on, you can't provide anything other than your own assertions.


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:50:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please God, what I hope is the final look at t (none / 0)

from the article you cite....

"Goolsbee candidly acknowledged," said his summary, "the protectionist sentiment that has emerged, particularly in the Midwest, during the primary campaign. Consistent with [the consulate's] analysis, he cautioned that this messaging should not be taken out of context, and should be viewed as more about political positioning than a clear articulation of policy plans."


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 11:34:50 PM EST

Re: Please God, what I hope is the final look at t (none / 0)

See above.


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:15:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please God, what I hope is the final look at t (none / 0)

There is nothing to see above...

Either Goolsbee said that Obama's public posture was a lie, or he did not.  Based on the memo, he appears to have.  Blowing smoke over the genesis of the story is not denying the content of the memo.

I do not care for the genesis of the story, or for any of the other details.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:00:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please God, what I hope is the final look at t (none / 0)

You sure have a lot to say for someone who doesn't care.  ;)

In the end, truth always prevails, because the winners always write the history books.
- Carlos Rose


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:05:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please God, what I hope is the final look at t (none / 0)

And you sure have very little to say about the main issue =)

Goolsbee said that Obama was demagoguing on NAFTA.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:01:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your candor is refreshing (none / 0)

You said "Right, completely correct, unambiguously not doubting that for a moment, and I'll even go a step farther.  The job of politicians is to sell ambiguities to potential voters.  That is their raison d'etre, and both Obama and Clinton are good politicians. "

I appreciate your candor but I dont think many Obama supporters will. Obama is not supposed to say anything to win voters. For many Obama supporters, only Clinton does that like it is a sin!

That hypocrisy is what makes 50% of Democrats dislike Obama.


by Sandeep on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:16:19 AM EST

Re: Your candor is refreshing (none / 0)

This hypocrisy is what makes me dislike both Obama and Clinton...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:26:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your candor is refreshing (none / 0)

Absolutely correct.  Politicians are not to be liked (especially the likable ones).  Politicians are to be tolerated until they are intolerable, and then they are to be led in front of the firing squad.


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:07:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your candor is refreshing (none / 0)

You just described Pakistan...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:09:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your candor is refreshing (none / 0)

And?


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:17:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your candor is refreshing (none / 0)

I thought it was obvious !!

"And...." I am wondering if you truly want to hold up Pakistan as your ideal state !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:49:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your candor is refreshing (none / 0)

You just described a logical fallacy.  Do you want to hold that up as your ideal method of communication?


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:52:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your candor is refreshing (none / 0)

Yes I described a logical fallacy...YOUR logical fallacy.  Perhaps you type faster than you think!

(a) YOU are the one that said that "Politicians are to be tolerated until they are intolerable, and then they are to be led in front of the firing squad."

(b)YOU then agreed that this description applies to Pakistan.

Seems to me from (a) + (b) that you think of Pakistan as your ideal state, but recoil at the prospect when I put it in those stark terms.

Now, unless you can string together a coherent thought, please don't bother me again...I have other things to do !


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 12:57:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your candor is refreshing (none / 0)

"Round and round the circle goes; where it stops nobody knows."

I have said it many times before, and I'll say it again.  My support for Obama does not stem from the belief that he is the second coming of Jesus, a saint, the great Black hope, a radical, a moderate, or the Easter Bunny.  Rather, I support Barack Obama for four pretty concrete reasons.

Reason the first: He is the better communicator.  I place a lot of stock in Richard Neustadt's contention that the president's power lies in persuasion; when the president speaks, the world (and by extension, Congress and the American people) listen.  There are worse things for a candidate to be called than a liberal Reagan.

Reason the second: He doesn't come with the Clinton baggage.  Believe it or not, many polls have clearly shown that Clinton has high unfavorability ratings.  While that may not matter to you or me in November, it could matter very much to the people who make up the small margin that decides the difference between a win and a loss.  For us liberals to say that this knee-jerk, irrational dislike of her doesn't because none of our friends feel it would be like examining Berkeley and concluding that Priuses, Volvos, and Subarus are the most popular cars in the US.  Perspective matters.

Reason the third:  Clinton has essentially shifted the debate into a referendum on experience.  Although none of the candidates strikes me as having much in the way of executive experience, the popular perception seems to be that McCain is far more experienced than either of the Democratic candidates.  Clinton would thus be forced to bring up her (maybe) experience (sort of) working in her husband's administration.  Rwanda, anyone?  With such a narrowed focus, I don't see decaf prevailing over real coffee.

Reason the fourth: I prefer Obama's approach to foreign policy; namely the part about talking with our enemies.  To paraphrase Madeleine Albright, what's the point of having a State Department if you don't use it?  It could be that this is merely fluff, but I prefer it to Clinton's saber-rattling.  I think that failing to acknowledge the failure of the Bush doctrine would be disastrous for whichever Democrat is nominated.

Perhaps it is asking a lot, but I would suggest that those who dislike Obama's perceived hypocrisy read some Machiavelli (or, dare I say, Leo Strauss).


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:55:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your candor is refreshing (none / 0)

"Reason the fourth: I prefer Obama's approach to foreign policy; namely the part about talking with our enemies.  To paraphrase Madeleine Albright, what's the point of having a State Department if you don't use it?  It could be that this is merely fluff, but I prefer it to Clinton's saber-rattling.  I think that failing to acknowledge the failure of the Bush doctrine would be disastrous for whichever Democrat is nominated."

Would you talk to Osama   ?  If you will not, then stop preaching this!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 07:11:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your candor is refreshing (none / 0)

Were bin Laden a rational state actor, absolutely I would talk to him.  He is neither however, so your point is somewhat mystifying to me.  However, this is not the case with the leader(s) of e.g. NK, Cuba, Libya, Syria, Iran.  We may not always agree with or understand their preference orders, but they sure as heck have preference orders, and thus there is room for negotiation.

Given a choice between negotiation and war, I will choose the former unless I am convinced that the threat is existential, and I am not convinced that any of these backwater countries poses an existential threat to us.  In particular, our relationship with Cuba is baseless, makes us look stupid to the rest of the world, and denies hedonists like me good rum and excellent cigars; Clinton promises to continue it.

As far as the preaching comment goes, I don't think that laying out a rational basis for supporting a candidate is preaching, but even if it is, nobody is forcing you to listen.

"An eye for an eye would leave the whole world blind"


by carloseljefe on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:16:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your candor is refreshing (none / 0)

Bin Laden is not a rational state actor, but Ahmadinejad is (perhaps) ?

On what basis can you say that bin Laden is not rational and Ahamadinejad is ?  The US does not recognize Iran, and quite a few people in the US believe that "the mullahs" in Iran are crazy.  Do you profess to know otherwise ?  Furthermore, there is a fair amount of rationale to  what bin Laden is trying to do..regardless of his methods, and regardless of whether you agree with him.

Face it...your argument is hollow in its face !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:48:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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