Clinton Campaign Calls Wyoming a "Near Split" in Delegates

I just saw this post over on another site and thought I'd share it with y'all:

By  Stonecipher  - Sunday, March 9th, 2008 at 6:30 AM

Much like the Bush Administration declared victory in Iraq almost five years ago, the Clinton campaign reached into its deep bag of dirty tricks and pulled out this gem, delivered by Clinton campaign manager Maggie Williams: "We are thrilled with this near split in delegates and are grateful to the people of Wyoming for their support."

Williams is implying one of two things here.

The first could be that she is stating it really was a close call, that a 61% - 38% victory for Barack Obama is a near miss on Clinton's part.  That's a tough sell.  A 23% difference isn't really that close.

The only alternative is that Williams is implying that even though the overall vote totals were lopsided in Obama's favor, the delegates broke in a much more even way.

After last Tuesday's results in Texas and Ohio, this seems like a perfectly logical scenario.  The problem with this implication is that when you introduce those pesky little things that get George W. Bush into trouble so often, the facts, the latter implication sounds even more absurd than the first.

The fact is; as it stands Obama won seven pledged delegates and Clinton won four.  That means Obama picked up 63% of the delegates compared to Hilary's 36%, an even more lopsided result than the popular vote.

In Clinton's defense, there is one more delegate out there to be counted.  Wyoming had 12 pledged delegates up for grabs.  However, even if Hilary wins this last delegate the break is 58% - 42%, still not a close call.  If Obama picks it up, of course, it gets even uglier for Clinton.  The split will be 67% - 33% in favor of Obama.

What bothers me about this goes a lot deeper than a little white lie, or a complete lack of competence on the part of Maggie Williams.  

It goes deep down into my gut and reminds me of the dark days after September 11th, when the USA Patriot Act was somehow written immediately and then passed by a Congress that had little idea of what was actually in it.  It reminds me of the build up to war with Iraq, when Dick Cheney repeated lied about links between Saddam and Bin-laden.  It reminds me of those dark days when I truly began to fear that our reality might imitate George Orwell's "1984" where inconvenient news was shoved down the memory hole, two plus two equaled five, war was peace and Big Brother was always watching.

Maybe it seems extreme to go bring all of this up because of one person's "fuzzy math", but Maggie Williams knew exactly what the math was and exactly what she was saying when she made that comment last night.

Her intention was to mislead and deceive, in other words, to lie.

What makes this worse, however, is that Williams didn't outright lie.  She didn't say "We won Wyoming."  That would be too obvious.  Instead she told a subtle lie that is much more difficult to catch.  It is calculating in its nature and its sole intent is to confuse and mislead the very people she is supposed to be fighting for.

The Clinton campaign has developed a pattern of telling these subtle mistruths.  There are dozens of examples to choose from, and this is just the latest.

As a nation we have spent the past seven years dealing with this type of communication from our leaders.  It is time we put an end to it because all we have to show for it is a massive national debt, $4/gallon gas, a tanking economy, a dwindling middle class, almost 4,000 dead soldiers, and billions and billions of dollars spent on an unnecessary war.  Oh, and Bin-laden is still free.

It is time to change this pattern.

We are fortunate to have come as far as we have from those miserable pre-2004 days in this country.  We're lucky to have the option to change directions.  It is time to reject the old politics of the Bush years and move forward to a new type of politics, the politics of transparency, honestly and integrity.  If we don't take a stand against this now, we may not have another chance.

With that said, I'll step down from my soap box.  Sorry, Maggie Williams just struck a nerve with me.  I intended to write an entry about the general election match up and how Obama as the nominee will help the Democrats gain a larger majority in the Senate.  We'll have to cover that next time.  Stay tuned...

Update: Poll typo corrected


Poll
Is it right for the Clinton campaign to call the result of the Wyoming contest a "near split of the delegates" when Obama won 7 delegates to Clinton's 4?
No, this kind of deception is what we need to get rid of.
Yes, she can say whatever she wants.

Votes: 13
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Re: Clinton Campaign Calls Wyoming (none / 0)

I wonder if she would refer to TX and OH as 'near splits' with Obama; as he won nearly as many delegates out of WY as she did off of those two states combined!


by Cycloptichorn on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 04:52:10 PM EST

Good for the goose... (none / 0)

That's what I was thinking. If Clinton is going to downplay a loss because of delegate math, then she has to accept that her supposed victories on March 4 unimpressive too. She only won Ohio by 9 delegates. She lost the Texas Two-Step. And she only won Rhode Island by 5 delegates (actually that's the one impressive win).

So, Ms. Williams, do delegates matter or not? I'm confused.


by elrod on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 09:14:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I wonder.. (2.00 / 1)

how many anti-Clinton diaries the diarist is going to start today.  


by JustJennifer on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 04:54:09 PM EST

And your poll... (2.00 / 1)

is worded incorrectly.  Your question is "is it right" and your answers are "no, she can do what she wants" and "yes this is wrong".  Perhaps you should slow down a little when you are spamming.


by JustJennifer on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 04:55:41 PM EST

Re: And your poll... (none / 0)

What do you mean by spamming? This and my prior one are my limit for the day.


Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.
by oregonkcg on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 04:57:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your poll (2.00 / 1)

Is shit.


I proudly support Barack Obama for President!
by Zeitgeist9000 on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 04:55:52 PM EST

Wyoming (2.00 / 3)

The difference was 2000 votes.  Seriously: your 23% split is 2000 people.  More people in Scioto County, Ohio (a small, rural county anchored by a small city of less than 20,000 afflicted by floods on the day of the election, where about 15,000 people turned out to vote) voted than voted in Wyoming.  You understand that, right?  

Are they spinning?  Well, sure.  They are spinning.  Clinton lost Wyoming by 2000 votes.  It's definitely a loss.

Speaking of "subtle mistruths," what do you think of the Obama campaign website, which tells the "subtle mistruth" that he won Texas and Nevada.  In fact, he lost Texas by 100,000 votes (if you like math that isn't fuzzy, that is 12.5 times as many people voted in Wyoming, and 50 times the margin by which he won the Wyoming caucuses) and lost Nevada by about 10,000 votes (or, more than the total Wyoming electorate).

Huh.  Sounds like Obama and his campaign are experts on fuzzy math to me.  


by mgee on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 04:56:54 PM EST

Re: Wyoming (2.00 / 1)

Sigh.  He didn't "lose" Texas.  Texas had two components, a primary and a caucus.  She won the primary, he won the caucus.  And, as a result of which, he got more delegates.  What do you consider "winning"?


Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.
by oregonkcg on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:00:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wyoming (2.00 / 2)

The popular vote victor.  I participated in both - and the primary was much more indicative of the "will of the people" as opposed to the chaos of the caucus system that everyone experienced here in Texas.  

There is no shortage of documentation of this fact - the only defense of the caucus system here that I have seen in the paper was from an AA Obama supporter saying, "well, back in the day, we couldn't even vote, or we might have been killed.  So these problems are nothing much."  True, but still - it was not a pretty sight.

Primary voters: Over 2.5 million
Caucus voters: Around 1 million

So less than 50% of the primary voters even bothered to show up...


by mikes101 on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:07:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sigh. (2.00 / 1)

In an election, the person who gets more votes wins.  Hillary Clinton received 100,000 more actual votes from actual people than Barack Obama did in Texas.  That's winning.  

That Obama seems to have won the caucuses and will probably come out of Texas with more delegates serves to demonstrate just how undemocratic (small "d") the caucus system is, and how undemocratic (small "d") the state by state, district by district delegate allocation can be, undermining the long-standing democratic (small "d") tradition of one person, one vote.


by mgee on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:08:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wyoming (2.00 / 1)

Again I will say that I would be cautious in counting the caucus votes in Obama's corner yet. My source who was down there in a legal capacity to take a look at irregularities has said there could be a profound difference. He could not divulge specifics yet. Just saying to hold your tally horse.


by Soitgoes on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:27:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wyoming (none / 0)

The nominee is decided by delegates.  He won more delegates in TX and NV.  Where's the mistruths?  By your logic, Gore won the 2000 election because he had the most votes.  Popular vote doesn't matter for the general election (it's the electoral college) and popular vote doesn't matter for the primaries (it's the delegates).  Nothing fuzzy there, unless you're trying to change the rules mid-game to make your candidate look better.


by FlashStash on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:05:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wyoming (2.00 / 1)

Well this is a popular view point among Democrats, right?  That Gore lost fair and square?  Give me a break.  He was defeated by a flawed voting system and the Supreme Court.  He probably could have asked for a recount of the entire state of Florida and won.


by mikes101 on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:10:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wyoming (2.00 / 1)

Popular vote DOES matter in the general election.  The person who wins the popular vote in a state gets the state's electoral college votes.  

Delegates matter, yes.  However, the larger truth is that MORE PEOPLE IN TEXAS AND NEVADA voted for Hillary Clinton than voted for Barack Obama and to me (not as a Clinton supporter - which I am - but as a Democrat), this weird up is down and losing is winning because the arcane rules say X or Z thing that Obama supporters and the campaign engage in only serve to undermine his position regarding the "pledged delegates," as it becomes more and more clear that "pledged delegates" do not represent the will of the people.

And yes, I'm still mad about 2000.  Al Gore won, even via the electoral college, until the Supreme Court gave it to Bush on points by refusing to allow a full recount of the votes in Florida.  The will of the people, indeed.  


by mgee on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:14:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And it cuts both ways. (2.00 / 1)

It's absolutely ludicrous that Hillary got nearly as many delegates in Alabama as Obama, and likely will in Mississippi tomorrow, despite a big margin in the popular vote (in AL, so far at least.)

It's just as ridiculous that more voters chose Hillary in Texas and Nevada, yet she ended up with less delegates.  The delegate count doesn't reflect the will of the people accurately, which is painfully obvious.  Hopefully, this endless campaign will get these states to switch to a popular vote, all-primary model in 2012, so we can have a clear-cut idea just what the heck the will of the people was in the first place.


by KevinCinNYC on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 06:05:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And it cuts both ways. (none / 0)

Obama is way ahead in the popular vote in for all the states that have voted thus far.  Most states; Most delegates; Most popular votes.


Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.
by oregonkcg on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 06:11:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And it cuts both ways. (none / 0)

I completely agree.


by mgee on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 06:14:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wyoming (none / 0)

No record is kept at the end of the year as to who won which states in primaries; it doesn't mean anything, in terms of electing nominees for president.

While the ebb and flow of 'momentum' changes due to wins, the numbers don't.  Obama got what he needed out of both states - a delegate lead.  


by Cycloptichorn on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What about NV, TX, and MO? (2.00 / 3)

The Obama campaign has officially declared that they won TX, NV, and MO.  Look at the map in Obama's website to see that these three states have been counted in Barack's column.

Hillary won the TX popular vote.  But Obama managed to grab more delegates, thanks to the undemocratic caucuses, so he declares victory there.

Hillary won the NV popular vote. But Obama managed to grab more delegates, thanks to the apportionment of delegates by region (giving more power to rural areas compared to the urban centers like Las Vegas), so he declares victory there.

In Missouri, Obama won the popular vote by a close margin, but he and Hillary got the SAME NUMBER of pledged delegates.

Which is Obama's real criteria for victory?  Is it the pledged delegates, or the popular vote?  Seems to me that his criteria changes to suit him.

TALK ABOUT "SUBTLE MISTRUTHS."


by Sieglinde on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:07:30 PM EST

Re: What about NV, TX, and MO? (none / 0)

Not to mention Alabama, where he won the popular vote but I do believe she came out ahead by one delegate. No one ever talks about that.


by americanincanada on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:10:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about NV, TX, and MO? (2.00 / 1)

Actually, I think the delegate allocation in Alabama was 27-25, but given the results in Alabama overall, you're right - Alabama further demonstrates the inequity of the delegate allocation system, except that Alabama worked in Clinton's favor, whereas Nevada worked in Obama's favor.


by mgee on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:17:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about NV, TX, and MO? (none / 0)

If you took Debate 101, you'd know that the weakest argument you can put forward in a debate with respect to a question of "Was it appropriate for Person X to do Action A" is "Well, Person Y did Action B, which is similar to Action A, so therefore Person X didn't do anything wrong."


Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.
by oregonkcg on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:12:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about NV, TX, and MO? (2.00 / 2)

You're missing the point.  I'm pointing to the hypocrisy of this diary, in insinuating that the stink is all in Hillary's camp, when far more eggregious "mistruths" are being propagated by Obama's camp.

Debate 101, please.  If you learned something from that class, then you'd know that the weakest argument you can put forth in a debate is to quote lessons from Debate 101.

;)


by Sieglinde on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:25:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about NV, TX, and MO? (2.00 / 1)

You mean like Obama supporters do every time Obama is caught and needs someone to tell us WORM?

I am not debating, and I was on a champaionship debate team, I am responding to insipid posts on a message board that has become less about issues that about childish gamesmanship.


by americanincanada on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:27:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about NV, TX, and MO? (none / 0)

"undemocratic caucuses"

Funny how the caucuses that we have used for years have suddenly become undemocratic only after Hillary ignored them and found herself losing them badly.


by FlashStash on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:14:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about NV, TX, and MO? (2.00 / 3)

That bridge in Minneapolis worked pretty good for a lot of years too...


by mikes101 on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:17:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You nearly owed me a new keyboard. (2.00 / 1)

That was spit-out-the-Diet-Coke funny!


by KevinCinNYC on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 06:07:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about NV, TX, and MO? (2.00 / 1)

So you must be in the opinion that they're democratic.

Can you defend your stance?


by Sieglinde on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:26:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about NV, TX, and MO? (none / 0)

Check the rule book. 'grabbing delegates' is the name of the game. Don't blame Obama just because Hillary can't figure out the rules.

Getting more delegates = winning everywhere except the Hillary spin room. If there is a tie then they can both claim 'victory' if they want.


by JoeCoaster on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:15:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about NV, TX, and MO? (2.00 / 2)

Oh ok, I guess I missed that rule where they talk about the option of claiming victory in case of a tie.

I guess I assumed that what works in real life is also applicable to these discussions.


by Sieglinde on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about NV, TX, and MO? (none / 0)

Tell me,what precisely was the popular vote in NEvada?


Bill Foster would agree, Barack Obama has coat tails.
by Walt Starr on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 09:54:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Then Texas was a loss for her in delegates (2.00 / 1)

I'll agree, it was a near split in Wyoming.

so was Texas, where she lost in delegates.


Bill Foster would agree, Barack Obama has coat tails.
by Walt Starr on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:09:59 PM EST

Re: Then Texas was a loss for her in delegates (none / 0)

How is it a "Near split"?


Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.
by oregonkcg on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:12:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Then Texas was a loss for her in delegates (none / 0)

Obama won by two delegates, just like in Wyoming.


Bill Foster would agree, Barack Obama has coat tails.
by Walt Starr on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 09:52:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: oh yawn (none / 0)

Please enlighten us as to how you think she can get the popular vote lead?  Obama is currently ca. 500k votes ahead in the pop. vote.  Please, do enlighten us.


Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.
by oregonkcg on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:16:56 PM EST

Clinton campaign invoke Lieberman spirit (none / 0)

It sounds like Joe Lieberman.  ''three-way split decision for third''!  Here comes the Joe-mentum!


by Tantris on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:20:01 PM EST

they can call it whatever they want (none / 0)

Either way, it's an increase in Obama's insurmountable lead in the pledged delegates.


by highgrade on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 05:36:00 PM EST

A lot of words in your diary (2.00 / 1)

None of them explain why a 7-5 final result is not a "near split" in delegates.  I don't see how it could get any nearer to a split without being one.  They don't, in fact, award partial delegates, do they?


by Trickster on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 07:41:50 PM EST

Re: Clinton Campaign Calls Wyoming (none / 0)

How does this statement:
"We are thrilled with this near split in delegates and are grateful to the people of Wyoming for their support."

remind you of 9/11, the Patriot Act, Congress, Iraq, Dick Cheney, Saddam Hussein, bin-Laden, 1984, dead soldiers, and billions of wasted dollars? I mean, I read your post, but it's all over the place. The logic is odd, at best. To take that one sentence and imply that it embodies everything that's wrong with politics, this country, and perhaps the world in general, is absolutely insane. Really. Really, it is. That is the wildest thought process I've been exposed to in quite awhile.

And what is this new politics of transparency, honesty, and integrity? Seriously. What is it, and where is it? Aside from Obama's (admittedly) effective 50-state strategy, I haven't seen anything magical. I see a politician. A very effective politician. Which is fine, as long as you're willing to admit that that's what he is. He has not come to us from on high to transform this country and save the world. He has come to us from Illinois to become president. That's it.

Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 08:26:38 PM EST

Re: oh yawn (none / 0)

Even more delusional by the day.

She will not have a lead in the popular vote. She will not have a lead among pledged delegates. She will not have won more blue states than Obama. She will not have won more votes among the 10 largest states than Obama. She will no moral claim to the superdelegates' vote except that she was SUPPOSED to be the heir apparent. Unfortunately for her, they had to run those silly elections.


by elrod on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 09:21:19 PM EST

537 (none / 0)

The difference in votes in Florida in 2000 was 537.

Does it occur to you that there are not a lot of people in Wyoming - not to mention Democrats? That's why they are only awarded 12 pledged delegates.


by elrod on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 09:22:39 PM EST

Re: oh yawn (none / 0)

Cool.

What percisely was the popular vote in Nevada, Washington, Maine, and Iowa?


Bill Foster would agree, Barack Obama has coat tails.
by Walt Starr on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 09:55:19 PM EST


You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.