Obama's red phone ad is based on lies

The political world is buzzing over Senator Clinton's recent 3am red phone ad and Barack Obama's lightspeed response ad.  Missing from all this buzz is the fact that Senator Obama's ad depends on several carefully crafted lies.

Lie number 1: Foreign Policy Experience doesn't matter

Supporters of Senator Obama will probably respond that what Senator Obama is really saying is that his good judgment is more important than his foreign policy inexperience or Senator Clinton's superior Foreign Policy experience.  

While it is true that Senator Obama's current position is that his judgment on the Iraq War trumps Senator Clinton's experience.  But that isn't what Senator Obama was saying a short three and a half years ago.  Here is Obama after winning his Senate seat in November 2004:

I am a big believer in knowing what you're doing when you apply for a job.  And I think that, if I were to seriously condsider running on a national ticket, I would essentially have to start now before having served a day in the Senate.  Now there's some people who might be comfortable doing that.  But I'm not one of those people.

Here is video of that statement::

VIDEO

Has Senator Obama really changed his mind that much on the the importance of experience or is he now comfortable with his his relative inexperience or running for national office from day one instead of focusing on his Senate duties?

By November of 2006, two years later, Obama went from that to skipping the part about his personal discomfort with not knowing what he was doing and just talking about whether it "made sense" or not (link, audio of entire interview here):

And at that time it was absolutely true that I thought, Well, that doesn't make any sense--I haven't been sworn in yet. Now, there's some, I think, who would argue that it still might not make sense after having only served two years in the U.S. Senate. And that's something that I very much appreciate. I understand it.

Lie number 2: Obama has carefully dropped references to the fact that he was not actually in the Senate at the time and didn't see the intelligence on Iraq.

This is what one might call a sin of omission.  In the same interview where he said that, he was asked about Senator Clinton and had this to say about her war vote:

I think what people might point to is our different assessments of the war in Iraq, although I'm always careful to say that I was not in the Senate, so perhaps the reason I thought it was such a bad idea was that I didn't have the benefit of U.S. intelligence. And, for those who did, it might have led to a different set of choices. So that might be something that sort of is obvious. But, again, we were in different circumstances at that time: I was running for the U.S. Senate, she had to take a vote, and casting votes is always a difficult test.

I haven't heard him carefully mentioning that part about not seeing the intelligence lately, his latest response ad being a case in point.  Now he is saying he has better judgement and almost always skipping the part where he was not in the Senate at the time.

Even a year ago, a piece in the Boston Globe said Obama had "often" added the caveat about having seen the intelligence.  Not "always" but "often."  That can be a big difference.  For example, if you often tell the truth, people won't trust you near as much as if you always tell the truth.

I have been making the argument that for other people it would be considered laughable to claim superior judgement when they didn't even look at the evidence.  After being briefed on the NIE, Senator Clinton was suspicious of the intelligence it contained and so went beyond it to reach out to contacts in the international intelligence community.  A month after Senator Obama gave the November 2006 interview above, Senator Clinton said that if she knew then what she knows now she would have voted differently.  (link)  To compare her decision, based on the best intelligence available at the time, with Senator Obama's position on the war is really comparing apples and oranges.

Lie number 3: Opposing the war was politically risky for Senator Obama.

First, it needs to be pointed out that Senator Obama did not develop a national profile of opposition to the Iraq War.  Ambassador Joseph Wilson, who did have a national profile of opposition to the war and did carry a risk for speaking out, said he was looking for support and he never even heard of Senator Obama until the latter was running for Senate. (link)

Ambassador Wilson also suggested that Senator Obama carried little political risk within Illinois itself:

the senator's opposition came from a far distance and carried no risk, given that he represented in Springfield, Illinois the district encompassing the University of Chicago.

The suggestion that Senator Obama carried little political risk even in Illinois is put forth more strongly from those familiar with the details.  When Senator Obama removed his famous speech from his website in, he received tremendous pressures, particularly from the African American community, to return the speech to his website and renew his opposition to the war.  In December 2007, Black Agenda Report (h/t eriposte) had this to say about the episode:

When Barack Obama was a state legislator running for the U.S. Senate in Illinois in 2003 opposition to the war in Iraq was extremely popular in African American communities and among the progressive voters he needed in order to win. Brother Obama was on the case, doing what he had to do to sew up that vote early, showing up at local antiwar meetings and rallies, and making speeches like the one opposing "a dumb war" which is now trotted out as evidence of his fervent and prescient antiwar stand.

Bush invaded Iraq in March 2003, and by late May... this reporter checked Obama's campaign web site and noted that all the evidence of and references to candidate Obama's prior opposition to the invasion of Iraq had been deleted.

After calls to Obama's campaign office yielded no satisfactory answers, we published an article in the June 5, 2003 issue of Black Commentator effectively calling Barack Obama out. We drew attention to the disappearance of any indication that U.S. Senate candidate Obama opposed the Iraq war at all from his web site and public statements.

Facing the possible erosion of his base among progressive Democrats in Illinois, Obama contacted us. We printed his response in Black Commentator's June 19 issue and queried the candidate on three "bright line" issues that clearly distinguish between corporate-funded DLC Democrats and authentic progressives. We concluded the dialog by printing Obama's response on June 26, 2003. For the convenience of our readers in 2007, all three of these articles can be found here.

Here is what they said when it first happened (link):

There are definitely multiple voices in Obama's ear right now. On the one hand, there are the DLC/New Democrats, the right wing corporate funded arm of the Democratic Party. Their consistent advice is to shut up and support the president's war at home and abroad, to get away from the concerns of "special interests" like minorities, working Americans, environmentalists and the uninsured, and peel off some not-too-conservative Republican swing votes. Their champion is Connecticut Senator Joseph Lieberman, the most rightwing of the Democratic candidates for President.

On the other hand, there is Barack Obama's Democratic base - African Americans, who don't support the war, and other Democratic voters who don't support President Bush. In fact, according to the Gallup and Zogby polls the most strongly held common issue among those opposed to the president is opposition to the war. Should Obama fail to vigorously attack the party of war and corporate plunder he will lose the opportunity to energize and expand his base. The crusade will be smothered in its crib - the DLC's proven formula for failure.

After pressure from within his base of support, Senator Obama returned the speech to his website.  One can argue whether the reason he gave for removing the speech in the first place makes sense.  That is not the point.  The point is that the Iraq War was opposed so strongly within his base that there was no real political risk in opposing it.  In fact the opposite is true: It seems that not strongly opposing the war was politically risky for Senator Obama.

Furthermore, Senator Dick Durbin also opposed the Iraq War, which gave Senator Obama some political cover if he needed it.  But the political importance of opposition to the Iraq War is perhaps most apparent in what the Black Agenda Report noted about Representative Jesse Jackson Jr. (link):

Rep. Jesse L. Jackson Jr. (D-Chicago), perhaps Obama's most prominent supporter among local elected officials, knows well the power of passion in the political process. Jackson has taken pains to state and restate his opposition to the Bush party's doctrine of "preventive war," both on constitutional and moral grounds, and wastes no opportunity to denounce it as utterly unjustified. Rep. Jackson also has some salient thoughts on the flavor that African American progressive candidates representing the views of their base bring to general elections nationally, or in big states like Illinois.

Conclusion

Mixed opposition to the Iraq War from a candidate who carried little political risk is not brave, contrary to what Senator Obama suggested in his recent ad.  Nor is it comparable to the vote of someone who was actually in the Senate at the time and had to vote, something Senator Obama himself once carefully pointed out every time he mentioned this.  Given that Senator Obama also once thought he did not have the experience necessary and now claims that his politically expedient judgment is superior to Senator Clinton's experience, his whole position begins to resemble a house of cards, with the whole thing possibly falling if even one of those cards is removed.



Display:


Clinton voted for the war w/o reading the NIE (2.00 / 5)

And the war made the country less safe. Obama is 100% accurate to point out her erred judgement/calculation.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 06:48:21 PM EST

Re: Clinton voted for the war w/o reading the NIE (2.00 / 3)

Are you always at the computer?  I have explained this over and over and yet you always come back with the same BS.  


by Mike Pridmore on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:07:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Saddam was never an imminent threat (2.00 / 3)

to the US when Hillary Clinton voted to enabled the war. He wasn't a significant enough threat to anyone for the US to launch a preemptive and essentially unilateral invasion that has cost millions of lives and is costing trillions of dollars.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:22:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saddam was never an imminent threat (2.00 / 2)

True, very true.  Yet Senator Obama in concert with others CONTINUE to fund the war to the tune of trillions of dollars.

Vote after vote after vote.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:28:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Once the truck was driven into the ditch, (2.00 / 2)

i.e. we invaded and broke Iraq's command and control, we did create a major mess there for the Iraqis, and Al Queda did infiltrate and set up operations after we went it. Getting the truck out of the ditch is a lot harder than plopping it in. We have to leave responsibly and that's hard to realize/enforce on someone like Bush using the limited options that the congress has after it authorizes a war and transfers that power to the executive branch. That's why one should be careful, meticulous and diligent before voting to give a war authorization.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:39:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Once the truck was driven into the ditch, (2.00 / 1)

No, it's not that hard to get the car out of the ditch.  You just call a tow truck and they get you out.  Plain and simple.  It's also easier to wax poetic with regards as to how a 'war authorization' is given (and just for clarification since I do this w/ Republican's -- it was a AUMF, not a war resolution, there is a difference), especially in the face of near non-existent opposition to your Senate seat run.  If you can count a weak out of touch, carpetbagger who joins the race less than 5 months before the election an opponent.

And Bush will never and has never planned on leaving.  Without a forced eviction, he'll be there until 1/19/09.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 12:43:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Once the truck was driven into the ditch, (2.00 / 2)

I doubt a reviewing court would find much distinction, if that's what you're arguing.  We never "declared" war against Vietnam, but the federal courts uniformly found that we had done just that, for all intents and purposes.  A declaration of war does not need to be labeled as such to have operative legal effect.


by rfahey22 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 03:12:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Once the truck was driven into the ditch, (2.00 / 1)

Yes, you may operate in a military action that may endure and have the overall effect of a 'war'.  However, and here is the biggest problem that we've run into while in the AO, w/out the declaration of war, our soldiers and 'civilian contractors', are w/out legal protections and guidelines.  Hence, you get things like Guantanamo and Abu Gharib.

However, we digress.  Senator Obama had the luxury to wax eloquent as you mentioned against a carpetbagger opponent, delivering his 2002 speech, which you reference.  I ask, what kind of meticulious and diligent decision is that?  His district and most of S. Illinois is anti-war, and his opponent has less than 5 months to make a case against him.  And let us not forget, it's Alan Keyes whom he is running against.  Is this what you base your decision upon?  I guess that truck had small rear-view and side mirrors...


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:17:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saddam was never an imminent threat (2.00 / 1)

Neuvo, answer me this:

How come Obama says: I have opposed this war from the start?

Truth: He gave one speech  against it at the start.

From: implies a continuity, which has been utterly lacking in Obama's conduct.  Hell, he hasn't done a thing after that speech.  

Opposed: Implies strong course of action, which again he hasn't taken.  

Apart from that speech, what did he do to oppose the war? He is very good at giving speeches and as you guys keep telling me: inspiring people .  So, why the hell didn't he give speeches, built a movement then, and inspired people to stop the war?

So, if Obama is as inspiring as you say he is, he has utterly failed the American people.  

He, who you say is the only person grand enough and talented enough to be able to unite Americans and solve all problems, failed to start a movement against the war then.  He could have stopped it.  After all, gifted inspiring people like him come along once every 50 years.

His chance is not now.  His was THEN and he failed.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:58:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You have to acknowledge that (2.00 / 1)

once we went in broke Iraq, dropping it and running was not necessarily the right thing to do thereafter. The future and even the lives of of 25 million Iraqi people, the stability of the region, our reputation around the world, everything was at stake AFTER we broke in. The objective therefore changes once we went ahead and invaded.

Obama is consistent in saying that he opposed the war/invasion all the way while at the same time hoping to bring the Iraq situation to a desirable state (a self-sustaining Democracy, eg) subject to the fact that invasion that has already taken place.

Someone at DK put it best:


Consider this analogy:  What if Farmer #1 starts a fire in the barn against the advice of Farmer #2.  After the fire starts, are you going to criticize Farmer #2 for trying to help put out the fire?  Maybe the fire will just get worse and threaten the entire farm and maybe Farmer #2 should just run for the hills, but you can not reasonably criticize Farmer #2 for trying to solve the damn problem that he specifically anticipated and warned against.  You sure can not claim that Farmer #2 is in anyway responsible for the damn fire.  You can not equate Farmer #1 to Farmer #2.  Farmer #1 is responsible and should be thankful that Farmer #2 is trying to help her out of the damn mess she was warned not to create in the first place.

For those 4-year olds in the crowd:  Clinton is Farmer #1, Obama is Farmer #2.  Now, I have to go and do a #2.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1 /24/1811/27747/837/442577


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:50:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You have to acknowledge that (2.00 / 1)

You didn't answer my questions.

1) why does he keep saying "from" instead of "at"?  

2) why didn't he use his inspirational talents to stop it THEN?


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 06:01:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton voted for the war w/o reading the NIE (2.00 / 2)

Wasn't she on Intelligence? Like Edwards?

Are you saying she did read the intel and then still voted for the war? If she fell for that crap she sure a hell ain't getting my vote.

But, personally, I think she voted for the war to pander for votes. It was good back then. Now.... Not so good.


"Make it stop! Please! Make it stop!"
by OsoDelMar on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:44:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama Talks Too Much. He's All Hat, No Cattle. (none / 0)

Clinton's ad was a wake up call to America to get real about the stakes in this election.  I agree and posted a diary for the first time in my life on this.  

"Obama Talks Too Much. He's All Hat, No Cattle. Just Words."
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/3/2/11183 /18202


by GeekLove08 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 12:04:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Talks Too Much. He's All Hat, No Cattle. (2.00 / 1)

Obama voted to confirm Condi.
Obama voted against Kerry's redeployment bill.
Obama voted against capping credit card interest rates.

But Obama never voted against war funding and Blackwater - until AFTER he became a presidential candidate.
Bill Clinton is correct - Obama on Iraq is a fairy tale.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 01:18:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Talks Too Much. He's All Hat, No Cattle. (2.00 / 1)

"Obama voted to confirm Condi."

As did Hillary Clinton.

"Obama voted against Kerry's redeployment bill."

As did HRC. The Dem caucus and Obama supported Levin-Reed alternative.

"Obama voted against capping credit card interest rates."

He said that's because the cap was too high. Which could have interfered with state usury laws with lower caps. AFAIK, the amendment didn't rule that out.

"But Obama never voted against war funding and Blackwater - until AFTER he became a presidential candidate."

Once a war began, matters became more complex.

"Bill Clinton is correct - Obama on Iraq is a fairy tale."

You're acting like a sore loser because your candidate Edwards lost. You have said some horrendous things about Hillary Clinton (that's one of the reasons you got auto-banned from Daily Kos). You're playing a spoiler out of revenge instead of rationality and certainly not in support of Hillary Clinton. You're in essence trying to damage Democratic party's chances of winning the presidency this year with your Obama bashing (while you're not a Hillary supporter).


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 01:34:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Talks Too Much. He's All Hat, No Cattle. (2.00 / 1)

Once agina the ad-hominem attacks - If you do not know have personal knowledge of that peson, HOW do you know they are a sore loser.

You are WRONG about the credit card caps. As a result of the bill not passing now the poorest, the minorities, and students pay anywhere from 40-100% interet. Plainly you never read the actual bill.

If you read the last few Sureme court rullings, you would find that Federal Law Trumps State laws on company's not located exclusively in one state.

You have also "JUSTIFIED" Obama NOT being able to do his job because he is campaigning in another thread. If you did not attend school you would not pass - If you don't show up to work you get fired and there is  no way a comapny is going to allow you to use their resources and get paid.

Character matters, and since Obama is using the "EXCUSE" he has better things to do than his job - then he should return OUR tax dollars.

Also, Obama received an ethcs citation for using his office and working on campaings rather than doing his job.

You can google this information - instead of constantly reading from Obama's lame "talking Points".

All you prove with your chronic mis-information and juvenile excuses, is that Obama doesn't have the maturity expected from the average adult.

Your attempts to "JUSTIFY" that kind of behavior, bodes ill for your own repsonsibility levels.


by Grandma M on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 04:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Talks Too Much. He's All Hat, No Cattle. (1.50 / 2)

"Once agina the ad-hominem attacks - If you do not know have personal knowledge of that peson, HOW do you know they are a sore loser."

I know the person through what he/she has written for years at Daily Kos and here.

You spewed filthy racism at Obama in one of your diaries. You should be banned for it, instead of being allowed to lecture around here.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 05:51:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton voted for the war w/o reading the NIE (2.00 / 1)

Oh, you have explained it! That makes everything better. Clearly we should all just bow to your superior understanding of things. Climb down off your soapbox buddy.


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 01:11:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton voted for the war w/o reading the NIE (2.00 / 1)

I think you mean for them to climb down off their high horse?  I think most of us use the blogs as our personal soapbox?


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 01:16:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Eternal Hope's response to this diary: (2.00 / 2)

Obama's 3 a.m. ad based on the truth.
by Eternal Hope
Sat Mar 01, 2008

Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:02:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Eternal Hope's response to this diary: (2.00 / 2)

Neither she nor you have done a thing  to answer the key charge that there was little risk for Obama in opposing the war.  His supporter base was more strongly against the Iraq War than almost any other group in the country.  The other Illinois Senator opposed the war and congressman Jesse Jackson Jr opposed the war.  In Illinois  it was not near as much of a risk as elsehwere in the nation.  And you also ignore that Obama stopped talking about the caveat that he didn't see the intelligence even he once said that he always said that.  Both of you keep repeating Obama talking points instead of addressing the facts.  And both of you call me a liar.  And I don't care for that characterization since I gave factual evidence for everything I said.


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:50:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Eternal Hope's response to this diary: (2.00 / 1)

"Neither she nor you have done a thing  to answer the key charge that there was little risk for Obama in opposing the war."

The arguments can go either way on how his opposing would've played out for him electorally. If Obama was thinking about running for the US senate  (privately is the key, not public announcements, as you're questioning internal calculations on his part), then one can argue that it was risky for him. If a pres. run was on the back of his mind, then, of course, it was great risk for him from that angle. You cannot therefore draw judgements about this as you see fit.

What we need to look at is what he said in the speech. The arguments were compelling and proved prescient.


I don't oppose all wars. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other arm-chair, weekend warriors in this Administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income - to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.

That's what I'm opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

Now let me be clear - I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity.

He's a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.

I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Oba ma's_Iraq_Speech

"And you also ignore that Obama stopped talking about the caveat that he didn't see the intelligence even he once said that he always said that."

Not many, if any, outside of the administration and the congress could see the the 90 page NIE. Gore couldn't read it either, although he probably had connections to know what was going on quite well. Remember that Gore's speech was made on Sep. 22 (or 23), 2003, after which several members of congress started publicly asking questions, eg, Kennedy. If I am not mistaken, Kucinich put out a comprehensive argument against the war. Based on these, and basic knowledge of goings on in Iraq, one could have safely concluded that: Saddam was not an imminent threat even if he had WMD.

However, the key here to observe is that Hillary didn't read that very intelligence report (which was supposed to be the basis for the case against Iraq) before committing troops via the IWR/AUMF. Such dereliction of duty IMO should actually disqualify a person for the office of the Presidency.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:32:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Eternal Hope's response to this diary: (2.00 / 1)

You are like a broken record.  If you are a Senator with intelligence clearance you can be briefed by the CIA or other agencies about information relevant to various issues.  So you don't have to read all of an intelligence document to know pretty clearly what it contains.  The real key here, the one you refuse to accept, is that Hillary got briefings on the NIE from the CIA and heard enough to know the NIE was suspect and went beyond it to the intelligence community and asked people directly for info about Saddam and WMD.  So she did the opposite of what you suggest.  You say she didn't do fair diligence but the truth is that she suspected it and tried to find out what the truth really was through other sources. She did extra work, which is what she should have done.

And at the time there was no way to know for sure because Saddam was telling people he did actually have WMD, as George Piro confirmed on 60 minutes just a few weeks ago.   You have been told this over and over and over and over and yet you still repeat the line about her not reading the NIE.

And you must not have read the excerpts from the Black Agenda Report that I provided.  If you had read those you would know that while he was running for the Senate he toned down his rhetoric against the Iraq War and started taking a different position.  The change was so obvious that his supporters, his base of support, thought the DLC had convinced him to change his tone and forced him to put the 2002 speech back on his website.

When your base of support is so strongly against the war that they force you to backtrack from a weaker opposition and go back to stronger opposition, it seems reasonable to conclude that there was not that much political risk for a strong opposition to the war if one were in Illinois at the time.  I don't see how you can fail to understand that unless you really don't want to understand it.


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:56:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You can't know exactly what ALL is the the NIE (2.00 / 1)

unless you or someone on your staff has actually read. Since HRC's staff couldn't read the NIE (because it was classified and available only to members of congress), they couldn't have read it to give the gist. For example, did she know the following:

As to Hussein's will to use whatever weapons he might have, the estimate indicated he would not do so unless he was first attacked.

If so, why did she commit troops via a blank check IWR/AUMF?

The reason your excuse making doesn't fly is because I have actually read the IWR and I know that it contains bogus claims and gives a blank check war authorization. I also know that Clinton did nothing to stop Bush in March of 2003, despite the UN inspectors reporting that no WMD could be found and they had pretty much fully debunked the lies about Saddam's nuclear programs.


    March 7, 2003

   ElBaradei:

   After three months of intrusive inspections, we have to date found no evidence or plausible indication of the revival of a nuclear weapon program in Iraq.

   Blix:
    How much time would it take to resolve the key remaining disarmament tasks? While cooperation can -- cooperation can and is to be immediate, disarmament, and at any rate verification of it, cannot be instant. Even with a proactive Iraqi attitude induced by continued outside pressure, it will still take some time to verify sites and items, analyze documents, interview relevant persons and draw conclusions. It will not take years, nor weeks, but months.

And she went, as you know:


    March 17, 2003

   Statement of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton on the President's Remarks to the Nation

   When the President of the United States addresses the nation about possible military action, it is a solemn occasion for every American. Tonight, the President gave Saddam Hussein one last chance to avoid war, and the world hopes that Saddam Hussein will finally hear this ultimatum, understand the severity of those words, and act accordingly. While we wish there were more international support for the effort to disarm Saddam Hussein, at this critical juncture it is important for all of us to come together in support of our troops and pray that, if war does occur, this mission is accomplished swiftly and decisively with minimum loss of life and civilian casualties. I have had the honor of meeting and speaking with many of our brave men and women in uniform. They are the best trained, equipped, and motivated military in the entire world, we support them fully and we are grateful for their courageous service in these difficult times.

Hillary keeps dancing around her vote based on calculations of the political need at hand and you keep churning out excuses and twisting things around.

Facts are rock solid enough that Saddam was NEVER an imminent, present or serious threat to the US and hence we ought not to have engaged in a preemptive war that killed thousands of troops, millions of iraqis and cost trillions of dollars.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 12:17:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You can't know exactly what ALL is the the NIE (2.00 / 1)

Facts are rock solid that Obama now claims superior judgment when he once honestly admitted that he did not actually have to cast a vote and he had not seen the intelligence.  Facts are rock solid that one does not have to read a whole document to know whether the info in it is suspect or not.  Facts are rock solid that Hillary heard enough to know the NIE was suspect and went beyond that to do her own research.  Facts are rock solid that you continue to ignore this important distinction.  Facts are rock solid that every time Hillary talked about Saddam in March 2003 that she clearly referenced the need for Saddam to give up his WMD, those things he had clearly been telling others he had.  Facts are rock solid that the fact the weapons inspectors had found nothing did not mean there was nothing to find.  Facts are rock solid that even though Barack Obama says he was always strongly against the war that in 2004 when he was running for Senate he changed his tone to more muted opposition and his base of support called him on it, forcing him to return his 2002 speech to his website.


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 12:40:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

asdf (2.00 / 1)

"Facts are rock solid that Obama now claims superior judgment when he once honestly admitted that he did not actually have to cast a vote and he had not seen the intelligence."

No case for war was made. Bush admin lied, and Hillary Clinton parroted some of those lies and went along by voting for the war and supporting it unapologetically and remorselessly (except critiquing the "conduct") for years after the war started.

"Facts are rock solid that Hillary heard enough to know the NIE was suspect and went beyond that to do her own research."

That's hogwash. What IS this "research." Who are these people she claims she talked to. And what were her findings from that "research?" Regardless, she voted the wrong way, anyway.

"Facts are rock solid that every time Hillary talked about Saddam in March 2003 that she clearly referenced the need for Saddam to give up his WMD"

The UN inspectors were reporting he had no WMD. So what exactly was he supposed to "disarm" himself of?

"those things he had clearly been telling others he had."

Dude, in Dec'02, Saddam put out 12000 page document dump trying to show that he had destroyed his WMD stockpiles.


12-07-2002    Iraq presents UN with 12,000 page dossier
Saddam Hussein risked a devastating US-led war yesterday when he delivered a 12,000-page declaration on Iraq's arms capability, which he insists proves his regime 'retains no weapons of mass destruction.'

General Hassam Mohamed Amin, head of Iraq's National Monitoring Directorate, displayed the documents and accompanying CDs to journalists in Baghdad and insisted that his country was clean of weapons of mass destruction.

'I reiterate here Iraq has no weapons of mass destruction,' he said. 'I think if the United States has the minimum level of fairness and braveness, it should accept the report and say this is the truth.'

The insistence that Iraq has no weapons of mass destruction, however, appears to set the country on a collision course with the US - and its closest ally, Britain - both of which claim they have 'solid evidence' that it retains banned weapons systems.

Time for you to drop that "Saddam said he had WMD" line.

"Facts are rock solid that the fact the weapons inspectors had found nothing did not mean there was nothing to find."

UN inspectors were asking for a few months to finish their job. Hillary Clinton was demanding Saddam to "disarm" of WMD (that he didn't have as we know, and as UN inspectors were reporting) and on 3/17/08 to accept Bush's ultimatum (at that point to leave Iraq: "Saddam Hussein Must Leave Iraq Within 48 Hours"), instead of telling Bush NOT to invade Iraq.

"Facts are rock solid that even though Barack Obama says he was always strongly against the war that in 2004 when he was running for Senate he changed his tone to more muted opposition and his base of support called him on it, forcing him to return his 2002 speech to his website."

Some quotes of Obama in 2004:


  1. Saddam did not own and was not providing WMD to terrorists. (Oct 2004)
  2. Invading Iraq was a bad strategic blunder. (Oct 2004)
  3. We must make sure that Iraq is stable having gone in there. (Oct 2004)
  4. Advance the training speed and get the reconstruction moving. (Oct 2004)
  5. Democratizing Iraq will be more difficult than Afghanistan. (Oct 2004)
  6. Never fudge numbers or shade the truth about war. (Jul 2004)
  7. Set a new tone to internationalize the Iraqi reconstruction. (Jul 2004)
  8. Not opposed to all wars, but opposed to the war in Iraq. (Jul 2004)
  9. International voice in Iraq in exchange for debt forgiveness. (Jul 2004)

Hillary was wrong and calculating on the war before and after and should NOT be trusted on war and peace, foreign policy and national security.

Obama was 99.9% right on the war before and after and is worthy of trust.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 01:22:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: asdf (none / 0)

Those dates are all after they forced him to put the speech back.


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 01:37:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

that's the period when his senate race (none / 0)

was seriously underway.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 01:49:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that's the period when his senate race (none / 0)

By October 2004, Michael Kay and others had already established that there were no WMD in Iraq. Also, by then Allan Keyes was Obama's opponent, making Obama a shoo-in to be elected senator. So how do you that it was politically courageous to make the following statements?

1. Saddam did not own and was not providing WMD to terrorists. (Oct 2004)

2. Invading Iraq was a bad strategic blunder. (Oct 2004)

You simply have no basis for saying that Obama has been correct 99.9% of the time. For instance, you credit him with the following statement:

5. Democratizing Iraq will be more difficult than Afghanistan. (Oct 2004)

We have no idea whether this is true, as we've never established democracy in Afghanistan. All we've done is established Hamid Karzai as "the mayor of Kabul." I do wish Obama had held meeting on the situation in Afghanistan when he held a Senate committee chair, because I'm not at all certain that his desire to "finish the job" in Afghanistan, aided by foreign policy advisers like Brzezinski, is such a great idea.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:17:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Eternal Hope's response to this diary: (2.00 / 1)

Obama's "good judgment" on the war went out the window after he entered the senate and began voting with Repubs to "support the troops" by funding the war.
And yet - Obamabots claim Hillary's war vote was a political calculation.
It appears Obama was doing quite a bit a calculating during his first 2 years in the senate WHILE plotting his prez run.

Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 01:24:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Stop being an irrational sore loser (none / 0)

bashing Obama for its own sake (apparently, since your candidate Edwards didn't win).

You're harming the Democratic party (and progressive causes) with your pure-spoiler activity.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 01:36:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

just wondering... (none / 0)

For 2 years, Obama "opposed" the war by voting with Repubs to fund the war and Blackwater.

Why did he stop "supporting the troops" in 2007?


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 01:10:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're being a sore loser. (none / 0)


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 01:37:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's red phone ad is based on lies (2.00 / 5)

I recc'd this because it is very clear that this mixed record on his war position will not be glossed over by the media once we get to the general election. You can bet that the doubletalk express will dig right into him: "He was against it, before he was for it, before he was against it again."


by MediaFreeze on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 06:48:38 PM EST

Re: Obama's red phone ad is based on lies (2.00 / 8)

Senator Obama, did you ever vote against the war?

Errr no, I spoke against it in 2002.

Oh, I see... and did you in 2006 say:

I'm always careful to say that I was not in the Senate, so perhaps the reason I thought it was such a bad idea was that I didn't have the benefit of U.S. intelligence.

Yes, but...

And now you are saying you are the only one:

who had the judgement and experience to oppose the war from the start

Do you see any conflict between this and your 2006 statement?

What can he say: "That's a trick question and I refuse to answer." ...?

My point, the point I will keep making, is that there are lots of time bombs out there for Obama. The media has been leaving them alone for now because it is focused on eliminating Clinton from the race. But once Obama gets the nomination they will turn their focus on him. He does not have any experience with confronting an opposition media and the last couple days of NAFTAgate demonstrates that he is unprepared.

This war record stuff is another good test. How might Obama answer the apparent inconsistencies between his 2006 statements and his campaign rhetoric?

You know it is coming. Refusing to answer will not be an option.


by MediaFreeze on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:10:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's red phone ad is based on lies (2.00 / 4)

As pointed out below he did sort of answer this question in an interview with Candy Crowley:

"The only time when I said I'm not sure what I would do if I were in the Senate was right before the Democratic convention, when we had two nominees that obviously I did not want to be criticizing right before they got up and received the nomination," he said.

VIDEO - Obama explains his "I don't know" quote from 2004

...and it goes on:

"But you didn't mean it?" Crowley asked.

"So -- well, no. What I'm suggesting is, everybody had difficult choices to make. And I -- and these were difficult choices. I made the right choice." Obama replied.

...asked and answered. It seems he was only saying that to make Kerry and Edwards feel better for their vote, suggesting that he might have voted that way if he had the intelligence, but he wasn't really serious since he was really always confident in his right choice. Got it?


by MediaFreeze on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:47:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's red phone ad is based on lies (2.00 / 2)

Not to feel better, but to tow the line.  Because we were all voting to get Bush and the neocons out of office since that was more important than giving the republicans talking points, such as, "your own supporters, like Barack Obama, disagree with you Senator Kerry."

Was it less than brave, and less than honest? you betchya, and I'm truly disappointed that he said that.  But I'm more dissappointed in the people who voted to invade Iraq in the first place.


by shalca on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:17:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's red phone ad is based on lies (2.00 / 2)

That's fine, but you can't have it both ways, which is what he is accusing Clinton of. You can't make a big deal about the fact that you never supported the war when you have publicly said that you might have supported the war if you were in the Senate? If he wants us to believe that he was not telling the truth to the nation when he says that he might of supported the war if he was in the Senate at the time, how can we trust that he is telling the truth then or now? In either case he's admitting that he tells falsehoods for political expediency.

Further, the fact that you are "more disappointed" in people who voted for the war in the first place is not technically a logical position. With the exception of 100 Senators, no one voted for or against the war. The judgement has to be would they have voted for the war if in the Senate at the time, and I would suggest that Obama has done nothing since becoming a Senator to distinguish himself as someone who would have stood against the war in 2002 and suffered all the political damage that those who did endured.


by MediaFreeze on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:51:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's red phone ad is based on lies (2.00 / 5)

It's hard to pin him down on any issue.  If the media won't do their job of keeping him honest, the voters will never know the truth about Obama.


by JoeySky18 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 06:52:59 PM EST

Re: Obama's red phone ad is based on lies (2.00 / 1)

All of these issues have been well-aired.

Clinton discusses them in exactly the same terms as you and has done so in national debates and in speeches covered by the tv and news.

Your interpretation is not exactly anything new.


by mainelib on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 06:55:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's red phone ad is based on lies (1.87 / 8)

I beg to differ.  In particular the discussion of his claim of political risk is in the new ad.  And needs to be pointed out for the lie it is.


by Mike Pridmore on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:08:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's red phone ad is based on lies (2.00 / 1)

Of course it was risky to oppose the war in 2002.  Nobody really KNEW what would happen.  I believed there were weapons of mass destruction there.  I wish Obama had been wrong.  I wish the war had worked.  Instead, it was the worst foreign policy mistake in american history.

Hillary Clinton failed on health care.  She failed on the war.  Clinton has failed on transforming our politics embracing the Terry McAuliffe big money, big donor, ignore the grassroots model.  Three strikes, out.  


by howardpark on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:38:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's red phone ad is based on lies (2.00 / 2)

But Obama didn't vote against the war either.


by MediaFreeze on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:53:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's red phone ad is based on lies (2.00 / 2)

You keep talking about Hillary.  Where is the part where Obama's base was for the war more than other places in the country?  Where is the recognition that Obama is anything less than perfect?  Where is the reality that George Bush is the one really responsible for this war?


by Mike Pridmore on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:41:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's red phone ad is based on lies (2.00 / 1)

What, in the world are you talking about re: Obama's "base" being pro-war?  Truth matters.


by howardpark on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:49:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's red phone ad is based on lies (2.00 / 1)

Typo there.  As I pointed out in the diary, his base was for opposition to the war.  And I gave documented evidence of that.  I said the opposite in that comment of what I meant to say and what I said in the diary.


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:58:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not (1.83 / 6)

Anyone who plays paddycake with someone who is shutting off the heat of tenants in his district has some explaining to do.  Maybe he isn't really as nice as you think.  He is pals with Joe Lieberman after all, and campaigned for him against Lamont.


by Mike Pridmore on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:10:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should try Google (2.00 / 3)

You said Obama was nice,  and Bill Clinton wasn't even mentioned.  I am well aware that he campaigned for Lieberman.  According to Nuevo Liberal Clinton was solely responsible for Lieberman returning to the Senate and Obama had next to nothing to do with it.  I am mad at both over that.


by Mike Pridmore on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:56:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should try Google (none / 0)

NuevoLiberal is lying - and knows Obama endorsed Lieberman and encouraged Connecticut Dems to have the "good sense" to return Lieberman to the senate.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 01:29:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's red phone ad is based on lies (2.00 / 4)

the media won't do their job of keeping him honest,

...until the general election.

Fleas meet dog...


by MediaFreeze on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:14:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not that the MSM can't (2.00 / 6)

Do you really believe that to be true?  The right is already gearing up with stuff to start attacking him should he win the nomination.  Stuff that Clinton and others (unlike Obama) who wouldn't use right-wing attack style ads or talking points against another DEM.

IF, he wins the nomination, he will get toasted severely by the right.  If you think that Clinton has been harsh, you're gonna in for a horrific wake up call.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:38:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Defeatism (2.00 / 3)

Oh code blue, how many election cycles have you been through?

Does the term "swift-boat" mean anything to you?


by MediaFreeze on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:54:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Defeatism (2.00 / 2)

No, realism.  Senator Clinton has shied away from many things, and left many, many topics alone for the simple fact that to do so would be destroying the DEM candidates choices (either one) for winning the GE.

He'll hit them back twice as hard? So, you're saying that he will engage in the same Washington divisive politics that he's been condeming?  I know he'll play dirty, he's already exhibited that, w/ his Harry and Louise mailers.  Thank you for pointing out to everyone here, what we have been saying.  He's not into 'Change' we can believe in.  He's just into 'Change' of address, using the same ol politics.  I 'Hope' America now sees the empty suit you have shown Barack to be.

Thanks.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:59:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We are still waiting for the answer (none / 0)

to this question posed to the Clinton campaign (paraphrased).

Can you point to a specific example where Clinton had to respond to a situation suggested in the 3am ad?

Also, how is it that Hillary was supposedly involved in all of these decisions when she didn't even have a security clearance?  


by highgrade on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:16:59 PM EST

Re: We are still waiting for the answer (2.00 / 5)

Bogus question.

No one except someone who has been the President has had that experience.

The ad is asking people to think about who of the two candidates (three including McCain, which is much scarier) they would be comfortable with in that situation.

Also, I've known a lot of people with security clearances and I would not want any of them on the receiving end of that call...


by MediaFreeze on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:21:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We are still waiting for the answer (2.00 / 2)

Easy.

*Healthcare issues after 9/11.
http://www.senate.gov/~clinton/issues/91 1/

*Speaking out IN China against at the UN Conference in 1995.

*Pressed the President to initiate military action in Kosovo
http://www.reason.com/news/show/119946.h tml

"In her book Hillary's Choice, Gail Sheehy reports that Mrs. Clinton pressed the president to initiate military action in Kosovo in 1999. When Mr. Clinton worried that such action could have undesirable effects, including the prospect of even more civilian casualties, Hillary persisted, arguing that the risks of inaction were greater than the risks of action."
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9905/14/ kosovo.refugees/

These are just a few items, take your pick.

Now, let's take a look at Obama shall we?  I know he's just a Senator...yet as Chairman of a Senate Sub-committee w/ control over NATO and their role in Afghanistan...he's not held one meeting.  NOT ONE.

In Kenya, where he has tried to defuse a mini-massacre led by Raila Odinga, who claims to be Obama's cousin. Obama has failed and is in direct support of an insurgent campaign led by Odinga who have murdered people by burning them alive in a church:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22460182/

Now.  How has Obama handled this?  Poorly.

Seek and ye shall find.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:54:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great diary, Mike. (2.00 / 7)

Thanks for publishing the facts - now if only Obamaphiles were interested in the facts.

I wish Senator clinton's campaign would do an ad using his 2004 video statement - then, maybe, people would understand the Kool-Air they're being served.


by Shazone on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:23:36 PM EST

Re: Great diary, Mike. (2.00 / 5)

You mean this :

VIDEO - Obama explains his "I don't know" quote from 2004

Well that's peachy, he only changed his position because he didn't want to insult fellow Democrats. Hand him the Red Phone.


by MediaFreeze on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:30:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great diary, Mike. (2.00 / 1)

I think Shazone is referring to the part about him saying he didn't have the experience.


by Mike Pridmore on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:59:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great diary, Mike. (2.00 / 1)

apologies... you're right.

I bumped this piece of double-talk up to a comment on my comment where I know it is relevant. Thx for the correction.


by MediaFreeze on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:12:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great diary, Mike. (2.00 / 1)

Here's the video:

Obama 2004: I can't see running for president


by MediaFreeze on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great diary, Mike. (2.00 / 1)

aargh...which I see you link in the body. Great diary Mike.


by MediaFreeze on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:16:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, I couldn't agree more with you (2.00 / 2)

Shazone. Hillary should immediately put out an ad focusing on that 2004 statement. If nothing else it would force Obama to revisit it. I cringe everytime I hear him throw out his "superior judgement" crap. It is the biggest line of BS in this whole campaign season...


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:01:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you agree or disagree with this? (2.00 / 2)

The Iraq War should NEVER have been authorized and should NEVER have been waged.

For me this is a LITMUS TEST for who deserves to be the Democratic nominee.

If CLinton were to say:

I was WRONG in 2002. I now believe the Iraq War should NEVER have been authorized and should NEVER have been waged

I will be able to work for her election in the Fall with enthusiasm. If she is she nominee.

If she will not say that I will vote for her in preference to McCain but that is all. No money and no campaigning.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:47:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So one Hillary "error" equates to.... (2.00 / 1)

2 or 3 Obama misspeaks?

Not fair.  Not fair.

But then, nothing is fair when it comes to Hillary Clinton.

I am - and always have been against the war.  But I give a sitting senator the benefit of the doubt with regard to the bullshit that was slung those days.  And the press was as bad then as they are now.  NOBODY could go against Bush, unless, of course, your opinion did't count for anything and then you could claim all sorts of things.  Now nobody can go against Obama.  Do we see a pattern here?

Obama has made it perfectly clear that if he had been in congress, he might have voted the same way as Kerry and Edwards and Clinton.  Oh, but he didn't want to embarass Kerry and Edwards.

Obama can go cheney himself as far as this war is concerned.  WTF has he done to stop it now that he is a senator.  NOTHING.  NADA.  ZIP.  ZERO.

I call bullshit.


by Shazone on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:00:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Shazone, I am asking what YOU believe (none / 0)

Do you believe:

"The Iraq War should NEVER have been authorized and NEVER should have been waged."

Or do YOU not believe that?

Forget about Obama and Clinton for the moment. I care about what YOU think.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:16:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think it should never have been waged... (none / 0)

but authorized - I can't say because I don't how things might have turned out in the past 5 years.  

I see a difference in the two.  The worst part of these past 8 years has been Bush - who is so fucking stupid, he has done EVERYTHING wrong.   I don't believe the American people realized how absolutely dumb he was and how evil his puppet handlers were.

By the way, I marched in NYC in February, 2003 against potential war.  I have been against this war from the very beginning.  I didn't even like going into Afghanistan.  And I still have return address labels that I use that say BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW.  I note, however, that I expect that no one can bring the troops home tomorrow - that some intelligent plan will have to be developed to do that.  I express my goal, not my hope or expectation.


by Shazone on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:48:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Why "authorized" ?? (2.00 / 1)

Gulf of Tonkin was a travesty for our Constitution as was the Iraqi AUMF.

Congress, NOT the President, decides when America goes to war. So says the US Constitution.

If Congress authorizes WAR then Congress is responsible for the consequences of getting it wrong.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:23:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you agree or disagree with this? (none / 0)

She has already been saying for a year and a half that if she knew then what she knows now she would not have voted for the AUMF.  That should be sufficient for reasonable people.  And that link is in the diary.


by Mike Pridmore on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:45:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton is NOT saying it forcefully (2.00 / 1)

enough to provide a sufficient contrast with John McCain.


No vetting is complete until we've seen the tax returns.
by Bill White on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 11:17:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton is NOT saying it forcefully (none / 0)

I'm not sure what you mean with that.  Your comment makes no sense to me.  McCain isn't going to argue over that part.  He is going to argue that we are winning in Iraq and need to stay there until we finish.


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:01:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you agree or disagree with this? (none / 0)

Then you should read this....

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2 /29/155558/168/352/466445

** December 18, 2006 4:02 PM **

"ABC News' David Chalian Reports:  As Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton continues to assess a possible presidential candidacy and the contours of a Democratic nomination fight, she has taken another step away from her 2002 vote authorizing President Bush to attack Iraq by saying that she "wouldn't have voted that way" if she knew everything she knows now."

Feel better now?


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:10:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you agree or disagree with this? (none / 0)

Sorry, wrong link....

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/ 2006/12/hillary_clinton.html

Here you go.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:11:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Totally BS diary (1.75 / 4)

First of all, what foreign policy experience for Hillary are you talking about? Are you counting her time as first lady when she had no authority to do anything?

Her first real foreign policy experience was her disastrous vote to authorize the Iraq war. That vote was either the result of being successfully bullied by W. or being totally naive. It was obvious to anyone without blinders that Bush was lying. The most obvious lie was that he had any interest in finding a peaceful solution. He lied that Saddam Hussein had not allowed inspectors. Millions of us knew he was lying and marched in the streets to demand he stop his march to war.

He timed the authorization for right before Congressional elections with the correct assumption that he could bully many democrats into voting for it. Hillary Clinton and John Edwards were among the ones successfully bullied.

The only alternative explanation was that Hillary was unbelievably naive to believe against all evidence that Bush was looking for a peaceful solution.

Now the WMD lies were not so obvious, at least those about chemical and biological weapons. I believed those as well. However his biggest weapon of fear was nuclear weapons and there was plenty of debunking of those lies before the war authorization took place.

So in Hillary's first ever foreign policy experience she voted to authorize the war which has killed and wounded huge numbers of people. The best guess is she did it purely so she couldn't be attacked as unpatriotic. She was willing to sacrifice those lives for her own political ambitions.

What other experience has she had. She still supported the principle of the Iraq War until a majority of Americans had turned against it. Her only critique was just like McCain's critique that it was fought incompetently.

She made the same awful mistake on Iran, voting for the Kyl-Lieberman ammendment. She voted against the banning of cluster bombs which target civilians. Again she preferred to let innocent people die rather than take a moral stand which would subject her to criticism as being unpatriotic.

So give me a break. She talks about 35 years of experience. Doing what? Well in domestic policy there's lots of good things to talk about. In foreign policy she has been a complete disaster.


by berkeleymike on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:15:33 PM EST

Re: Totally BS diary (2.00 / 1)

Northern Ireland Peace process, doing her own travels in Africa and then convincing Bill to focus on issues there, changing the way things were done in that respect, helping to convince Bill to intervene and use force to stop Milosevic against the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, almost all of whom are Muslims, standing up to China on rights for women, pushing for the first female secretary of state, etc.  And if you had looked at the links provided instead of commenting first, you would have all that and a lot more.


by Mike Pridmore on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:54:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Totally BS diary (none / 0)

I followed the links and it looks that she had some positive impact in Africa and Ireland though it looks debatable as to how significant.

But you haven't responded about her war-mongering record in Iraq. She did not stand for peace when she saw taking a moral stand as a major threat to her political ambitions. Instead she stood strongly for an immoral war. Her rationalization that she thought George W. Bush would try for a peaceful solution was purely an excuse. She is too intelligent to not know that his only desire was for war.

Someone who allows herself to be bullied into supporting a war is not the person I want answering the red phone at 3AM. Barack Obama has shown that he is.


by berkeleymike on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 12:24:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Totally BS diary (none / 0)

warmongering?  Why should I respond to hyperbole like that.  I totally reject your mischaracterization of a vote, based on the intelligence available, to use the threat of force to get weapons inspectors in.  And the inspectors later said that if it had not been for the threat of force they would not have gotten back into Iraq to do their jobs.


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:04:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Totally BS diary (none / 0)

The idea that we needed the threat of force to get weapons inspectors into Iraq was one of George W. Bush's most blatant lies. It was George W. Bush who forced the weapons inspectors out of Iraq, not Saddam Hussein. Hillary knew it was a lie, because anyone who kept up with current events knew it was a lie.

And you say "based on the intelligence available", Hillary did not even read the NIE. So she wasn't even interested in learning what the intelligence available was. She had no interest in the truth, she just feared that she would be tarred with unpatriotism if she took the moral position.

I don't consider war-mongerer hyperbole but I am willing to call Hillary a "war enabler", or "sharing complicity for going to war in Iraq". If you disagree with that then I think you are in complete denial.

Talking about hyberbole calling Barack Obama's ad a "lie" is in my mind stretching the meaning of words beyond any meaning at all, just like Bill Clinton used to do in arguing about what the meaning of "is" is.

His ad is the absolute truth. Experience means nothing when your judgment stinks. Though I think he was being overly kind to Hillary in saying she had a problem in judgment. I would call it a problem in moral character.


by berkeleymike on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:44:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Totally BS diary (none / 0)

Here is a link that documents the Bush lie that we needed the threat of force to get weapons inspectors in: http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/200 6/03/31/bush_lies/

You are relying on George W. Bush's lies to make your argument. And this was one of the lies that was well known to be a lie at the time that he made it.


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