Bean counting the way

Obama made the argument today that if he went into the convention with the lead in pledged delegates, that he would make the case to the superdelegates that they needed to back him, because he was the choice of the people. That's a good strategy, but it has a couple of problems he's got to overcome to get into that position.

The Feb 5th delegates are still being counted, and with 75 remaining, Clinton and Obama are tied at 803 each; it will likely wind up being an Obama gain by the time they are all counted. Obama already has the pledged delegate lead at 866 to 851, a lead of 15, which will be increased.

Still, Clinton's superdelegate lead of 79 puts her out in front, which is the advantage of Clinton that Obama is trying to lessen. But there's also the Michigan and Florida delegate problem sitting out there for Obama. In those two states, Clinton holds 178 more delegates, Obama has 67, with 55 uncommitted and 13 for Edwards. So really, for Obama to be able to make this argument unfettered (and to also solve the Florida & Michigan problem), he's got to get to the point of overcoming that additional 111 Clinton lead of delegates (saying he's got those 55 is something that would require more to happen and I've heard different scenarios-- even that they could eventually become additional Clinton delegates).

But, it might be doable. Obama would need to pound it down state-by-state, till he gained a lead of over 111 pledged delegates over Clinton, then he could make that then-compelling argument to the superdelegates about his being the peoples choice (with the frosting to prove it), seat the Florida & Michigan delegates, and have his cake.

That's Obama's way into the nomination. Obviously, Clinton's was to win big on Feb 5th, and they did, in all the big states that were up for grabs (except for MO where it was tied). But the Clinton campaign was out-done by the compete-everywhere mentality of the Obama campaign. It just killed the Clinton campaign that they didn't have a caucus strategy in place for Feb 5th. That miscalculation cost Clinton the pledged delegate lead.

The Clinton's are not in the position where they can afford to cede the remaining caucus states. Maybe that's why Clinton was up in Maine today; but it's also just about too late to do anything about it, as this week pretty much wraps it up for the caucuses (HI and WY are all to remain in Feb). Although, one other significant caucus state to go is Puerto Rico and their 55 delegates on June 7th-- imagine this wild campaign winding up there for a moment.

That ties into Clinton's strategy to win, going forward. It hinges on her eventually taking the pledged delegate lead, but also, never, ever, ever, losing the overall delegate lead that includes superdelegates. But first things first, Clinton needs to win something more in February, among the 10 remaining contests.

Update [2008-2-7 0:55:59 by Jerome Armstrong]: Just received a PR that Clinton has scheduled to be in Washington State both Thursday night and all-day Friday (and then back to Maine again on Sat), ahead of the caucus there-- if its combined with some 24/7 precinct organizing in the state, that'll avoid a blowout.



Display:


Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Minnesota's just as big as Missouri, Jerome, and she got crushed there.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:36:26 AM EST

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

That was a caucus Max.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:40:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, I know. I live there. (none / 0)

Obviously, Clinton's was to win big on Feb 5th, and they did, in all the big states that were up for grabs (except for MO where it was tied)

If you're counting Missouri, you shouldn't leave out Minnesota. They have the same number of delegates to the convention, so Minnesota is, insofar as its effects on the nomination are concerned, just as "big" as Missouri. You didn't say anything about caucuses or primaries.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:28:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, I know. I live there. (none / 0)

And read on, "It just killed the Clinton campaign that they didn't have a caucus strategy in place for Feb 5th."


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:31:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, I know. I live there. (none / 0)

I think the key phrase is "up for grabs". My understanding was that MN wasn't up for grabs, that it was a good bet for Obama. Is that not true?

CA, MO, MA, CT (and to some degree NJ) were all big and all a bit iffy as to who would win them, and Clinton got all but two of those. That's my understanding of Jerome's point.


Blogging politics and life in general at jimmy.bouma-holtrop.com
by forecaster15 on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:10:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (1.00 / 1)

"But the Clinton campaign was out-done by the compete-everywhere mentality of the Obama campaign."

You say that like its a bad thing.  Ever heard of the 50-state strategy???

So Obama should have cherry-picked his states so that Clinton would have a better chance to win?

Oh Jerome.  


Would you hire George W Bush to be YOUR latex salesman?
by jgkojak on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:40:08 AM EST

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

duh, you think I wasn't there when it was thought up?


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:41:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (2.00 / 1)

Yes I know you were- I was being sarcastic-

I am having some cognitive dissonance-- putting together your appreciation for Hillary vs. the person who is actually crashing the gate and executing the 50 state strategy.  


Would you hire George W Bush to be YOUR latex salesman?
by jgkojak on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:53:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

All besides the point.

Obama is not going to be sitting around but will be bringing his motivational machine into all of those states. The contrast between new versus old is out there and I think people are just sick of Washington politics as usual. The low ratings of Whitehouse and Congressional performance by the public has a deeper meaning not readily appreciated.

Take our government back from the lobbyists. And only Hillary is on record taking contributions from registered K Street lobbyists, including many from the military-industrial complex.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 08:19:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

I agree with this. Doesn't square.


by wasder on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:11:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Read up, Compete and Reach Everywhere, and there's this book called Crashing the Gate that might reach you... and we had a campaign once, it was called Dean for America, and I recall drafting a memo on a 50 state internet strategy back in January of 2004 for Joe Trippi... but keep lecturing.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:46:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

This is what I keep coming back to. You, of all people, shouldn't be surprised that Clinton is running a narrow election strategy that doesn't focus on competing everywhere.


Further Reading
by Dave Sund on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:52:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Yea, I also know they have plenty of people on their team that are oriented that way, and that the campaign also have a good track record of adjusting their game. Look at what they did with the youth vote in CA & MA.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:58:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Shockingly (I guess) I was completely un-offended (by the 50 state thing which wasn't offensive) and appreciative of your analysis in that post.

Since I probably won't say it often until November of 2008, good post.


by MNPundit on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:03:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Thanks... I guess /)

I'm expecting a ticket of these two candidates, so there's no reason to fight it.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:15:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Are you really?  I think a ticket of the two of them is highly unlikely.

Clinton would never accept VP nor do I think would Obama.


Hillary Clinton is not a monster,....as far as I know.. We are all Hussein JUNIOR.. ///.. FEINGOLD/BOXER 2016
by Its Like Herding Cats on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:32:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Hitching oneself to the Clinton's ticket is political suicide for anyone.  It would be quite interesting to see who would actually accept the slot of third wheel on this co-presidency.


by mddem456 on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 06:12:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Michigan cannot be sat.  That would be the most unfair thing ever.


by tom32182 on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:41:49 AM EST

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Yeah, counting people's votes, how dare they!?


by musicpvm on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:45:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Counting peoples' votes in a contest where only one candidate is on the ballot isn't the way we usually do things here, outside the former soviet union.

You can at least make an argument about Florida, but Michigan???


by TL on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 09:43:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Yes, there is no way that Clinton campaign can claim those delegates from Michigan unless Obama gets the uncommitted ones.


by wasder on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:13:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

I don't think anybody has argued that Obama shouldn't get uncomitted delegates if Michigan does count.


by musicpvm on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:27:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Nobody asked Obama to take his name off the ballot, he chose to.  I guess Clinton should take her name off the ballots on all the states she believes she will lose and then scream for them to not count.  Ridiculous.


by musicpvm on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:26:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Obama didn't take his name off the ballot because he thought he would lose.

As far as that goes, if there were a primary in Michigan that was fairly contested, I would expect him to win it handily - and I would certainly expect him to do better than "uncommitted".


by TL on Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 09:38:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Maine is doable.

Lets not forget the governor of maine endorsed her and a bunch of local officials.

So if she is going to get one maine would be it.

All she has to do is keep the pledged delegate close in all those feb states.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:43:54 AM EST

Borders New Hampshire (none / 0)

If the Clinton event I attended in New Hampshire was any indication, there were a lot of folks from Maine in the audience.  Indeed, I spoke to more people from Maine than New Hampshire.  Of course, I was very near the border.


by BDB on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:48:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (2.00 / 1)

You guys assume Clinton will win the superdelegate race. As Obama wins more and more states, you'll see state party leaders going for him which will increase his Sd count. As you see more polls showing him doing best against McCain, you'll see his SD number rise


by mecarr on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:46:20 AM EST

Re: Bean counting the way (2.00 / 1)

I know the superdelegates are kind of undemocratic, but then again, the whole process is undemocratic. We have caucuses that are hard for people to attend, bizarre allocation mechanisms that don't convert popular votes into delegates accurately, etc.

Like all of those, the superdelegates were part of the rules. The Obama campaign screamed pretty loudly about the rules when the teachers union filed suit in Nevada, and some of them are screaming pretty loudly about Florida and Michigan, because those are the rules.

Each side wants to change the rules to help them, and because the system is so screwed up, can make a good case either way. The bottom line is we're screwed.


by OrangeFur on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:47:01 AM EST

I don't see how (none / 0)

asking the superdelegates to vote for you is "changing the rules."  I agree there is a lot of complaining online, but when isn't there?


New Jersey politics and news
by John DE on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:50:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't see how (none / 0)

Of course they are asking the superdelegates to vote for them. Both camps have extensive courting operations. Chelsea has been dialing for Clinton. Unfortunately, the superdelegates have a lot of power this cycle. It's a very undemocratic process, and with the situation with FL and MI, could get very messy.


by keatsheart on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:57:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

even that they could eventually become additional Clinton delegates

You slipped that in just to drive people round the bend. Isn't that called trolling?


DC Drinking LiberallyDC for Democracy

by KCinDC on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:48:12 AM EST

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

No, you're confusing that with just passing on useful info to know about while going into this rabbit hole...


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:50:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Well, the "trolling" accusation was a joke, but more seriously it seems like trying to move the Overton window.


DC Drinking LiberallyDC for Democracy

by KCinDC on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:26:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Most superdelegates uncommitted at this point (2.00 / 1)

The vast, vast majority of superdelegates are uncommitted at this point. My guess is that they will all go to the pledged vote winner so as not to sway the election.  The delegate count with current superdelegates is more of a psychological milestone for Obama to cross than an actual statement of Hillary's position.  By the end of next week, barring some major turnaround, Obama will have surpassed Hillary Clinton's total delegate count, including her superdelegates.


by elrod on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:50:40 AM EST

Re: Most superdelegates uncommitted at this point (none / 0)

I'm not convinced that will happen, but if it does it is significant, as it would indicate Obama as the frontrunner.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:52:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most superdelegates uncommitted at this point (none / 0)

I think the Clinton camp might like Obama as the frontrunner. It raises expectations for him in a big way.


by keatsheart on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:58:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most superdelegates uncommitted at this point (none / 0)

Not that vast. There are 796 superdelegates, and about 300 of them have endorsed.


by OrangeFur on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:03:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most superdelegates uncommitted at this point (none / 0)

I feel this can be true.  I am a Clinton supporter, but even I have to admit it does not look good for her in VA, MD, LA, and some others.  VA will really hurt her.  


by findthesource on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:46:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Puerto Rico. (2.00 / 2)

   Now that would be surreal.  The Republicans would be apoplectic.  I simply can not picture Clinton rallying her base in San Juan, and Obama heading south to Mayaguez to shore up his.  But what about the swing voters in the inland mountains?!  Too funny.  


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:52:32 AM EST

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Hey, better not underestimate Puerto Rico:
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/barone/2008/ 2/6/puerto-rican-poll-power.html

by markjay on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:01:52 AM EST

According to Real Clear Politics (none / 0)

Hillary is exactly halfway to the nomination minus 1 delegate.  IN my opinion, something is going to have to give between these two candidates in the next month or so.  I don't know if one candidate will just start running the table against the other or what, but everyone's right, there's no clear, (un)muddled way to the nomination if the candidates engage in a protracted delegate fight.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:04:10 AM EST

Re: Bean counting the way (2.00 / 1)

Does Puerto Rico have a big Hispanic population?


by OrangeFur on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:04:24 AM EST

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

I would think so!  Michael Barone was commenting on this situation and saying that the caucuses would be in Spanish.  Apparently the delegates are winner take all in Puerto Rico.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:10:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Winner take all? Really? That'd be huge! That would be like New York or Illinois in terms of delegate margin.


by OrangeFur on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:16:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

I think PR is only 63 delegates.

So, even if winner-take-all, would it really make a difference?


by findthesource on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:56:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Mostly Irish.


by werd2406 on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:19:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

It is about money, Jerome. Its all about the money.


by aiko on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:10:36 AM EST

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

hehe, you'll like the next post then.


by Jerome Armstrong on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:15:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Yea....too bad the next post was completely bogus.  It was great spin, but very poorly researched, and  completely false.  


Hillary Clinton is not a monster,....as far as I know.. We are all Hussein JUNIOR.. ///.. FEINGOLD/BOXER 2016
by Its Like Herding Cats on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:25:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

I've seen sources, including CNN, that say when all is said and done, Clinton will have a few MORE delegates from super=Tuesday than Obama.  Makes sense, as we are still waiting on California.


by Thaddeus on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:12:03 AM EST

I do like... (none / 0)

I do like how the Obama folks get all pissy about Clinton people claiming they have the super delgates and they retort to "its not settled yet so you cant claim them untill its settled" but then go onto claim THEY will actually be the ones with the superdelegates...irony huh?


by werd2406 on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:21:09 AM EST

change of planes at Midway (none / 0)

Is HRC flying on Southwest to get out to Seattle?

This is no joke.  In 1999, I was on a Southwest flight from Baltimore to Nashville and sat across the aisle from Lamar Alexander who was running a bare bones campaign for the Republican nomination in 2000 (after an attempt in 1996).   He was reading a magazine article about fundraising and I couldn't resist being the smartass and said something to him about saving money by flying Southwest.  After learning where I was from, we chatted about California politics.  I was sipping my screwdriver and then he asked me if he had a chance in California.  It took all my power from doing a spit take on him.

PS- Obama will also be in Maine on Saturday (maybe we can give Hillary a ride from Seattle).  Bill Clinton will be in Maine tomorrow (Thursday).


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:43:46 AM EST

Re: Bean counting..... (none / 0)

Jerome,

What is the "Florida and Michigan delegates problem" that you refer to?  My understanding is that the votes from those states will not count, as their delegates will not be seated at the convention.  

I don't claim to understand all the mechanics of these very complicated primaries, but I hope you aren't trying to make the case that after laying down the law months ago, the DNC Rules Committee should re-visit the issue and somehow come up with some new scenario that works to Clinton's advantage?  I cannot imagine a more destructive turn of events for the Democratic Party and the progressive movement.  All hell will break loose.


by global yokel on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:44:30 AM EST

Re: Bean counting..... (none / 0)

Global, you act like this is some news or something that MI and FL may be seated? Dean was talking about this yesterday. I think it's likely FL and MI will be seated.


by werd2406 on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:52:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting..... (none / 0)

There's no way Michigan delegates can be seated.

I would have a problem with Florida, but at least there's an argument for seating them - all the names were on the ballot.

But how can you argue we should count votes from a contest where nobody campaigned and there was only one name on the ballot?

They only do that in countries where the President is referred to as "Dear Leader".


by TL on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 09:47:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting..... (none / 0)

I very much agree with you here.  I am a Clinton supporter, but even I have to admit that if they decide to count FL and MI, Obama supporters will be livid and may have every right to be.  Especially MI......


by findthesource on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:59:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Jerome's posts are always interesting, but it's the cluelessness in the comments that really makes them worthwhile.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:54:06 AM EST

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Has anyone been tracking the actual vote tallies? I added up the votes at CNN.com and have come up with approx. 8.9MM for Hillary and 8.4MM for Obama (including FL and MI). Without MI, she's at 8.6MM. Anyone have anything different?

Anyway, how can Obama assert that the superdelegates "need" to back him as it is "the choice of the people"? I mean, I realize this is a delegate system, but this is not exactly the choice of the people if the votes don't support it.


by Dari on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:07:04 AM EST

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Right. This is why Dean's decision about FL/MI screwed everything up. Now no matter what happens, people are going to be pissed. And yes, both would make claims if, IF, one ends up with more popular votes and one ends with more delegates as to "who is the will of the people".


by werd2406 on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:12:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

The DNC had to somehow punish states that wanted to jump in line. If not, every state would try to move their primary to January or early February. The whole point of spacing them out is to give unknown candidates a fighting chance at the nomination.


by keatsheart on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:04:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

I don't know. I would find it a hard pill to swallow if my candidate won the nomination, but not the popular vote. I wouldn't want to step into it that way. And, if I did, I would hope I would do so with a bit more humility and graciousness than what is being displayed on these boards.


by Dari on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:15:54 AM EST

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Hopefully Clinton is taking Patty Murray, Maria Cantwell and Ron Sims with her everywhere she goes in WA


by rossinatl on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:17:54 AM EST

Good Idea On Washington, But... (none / 0)

That would be a good idea, but such an approach would obviously raise the stakes for Hillary.  

If she lays it all on the line in the Washington caucuses, then loses badly, you know how that loss will be spun...as a strong rebuke to her- she had huge endorsements, tried very hard to endear herself to Washington, but still lost badly.

Of course, the Washington set-up (like the Texas set-up) is fascinating.  Apparently, they will hold a primary that day which will be a beauty contest with no connection to delegate allocation.  Then, later in the day, they will hold separate caucuses that WILL determine delegate allocation.  Okay.  

Clearly, Washington (like California) has demonstrated a strong affinity for voting women into positions of power.  Conceivably, I suppose, Hillary could win the primary portion (which would certainly be newsworthy), then lose the caucuses (which I think she will).

That kind of result might afford the Clinton camp a narrow opportunity to spin Obama's caucus wins as somehow lesser wins...when compared to her primary wins.  She has more electoral appeal; he has more activist appeal. Which wins elections?  (Hint: ideally, you have both.)  

Somehow, though, I doubt the MSM would go for that frame.  After all, it's all about delegates.  I think the MSM is fully invested in that frame from now on.


by Demo37 on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 02:46:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, Texas Is Complex (none / 0)

I guess the imprecision in my comment implied that Texas was identical to Washington.

Actually, I just meant to say that both were fascinating...and unexpectedly complex.

Thanks for the additional details on Texas.


by Demo37 on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:29:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

PR has 63 delegates total- are only 55 tied to the actual vote?

BTW - Clinton would most likely receive .... 50 of those 55 lol


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 08:16:12 AM EST

how about... (none / 0)

...connecticut and delaware and that pesky "little" state called New Mexico that is virtually a tie?

Hillary underperformed on Tuesday.  But due to her establishment connections, she still has to be favored to win.

But...her statement that Obama only won states the a Democrat will never win in the general election was disheartening to any democrat in a midwest, plains, or mountain west state.

It certainly was downright insulting to those people who took time out of their day to vote or attend a caucus in one of those states.

I am sure it played well, however, in DC, the northeast, and California.


d
by d on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 09:07:32 AM EST

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Finally, a great post by Jerome. Obama' running a 50 state campaign on the grassroots level and is finally getting his due respect. Clinton has been running a very conventional campaign and is barely surviving.

It has been disheartening to read about the Democratic Primaries here of all places and not have this acknowledged. I respect that we may support different candidates - what I question is not supporting his tactics of inclusion which I dare saw were outlined here some four years ago.

Thanks Jerome.


by CB Todd on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 09:45:22 AM EST

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

Clinton's campaign is more grass roots than you know.   Obama's campaign is more conventional thatn you would expect.  He also has media on his side.  


by findthesource on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:24:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Avoiding a blowout in Washington. (none / 0)

I don't see how. Seattle (home of "Baghdad" Jim McDermott) was his biggest single support base for Dean in '04. On all the progressive  polls, Clinton comes in at 4th (behind Kucinich, Edwards, and Obama). And for Demographics fans (I'm not one of them), Seattle elected a black mayor with only 10% of the electorate being black, and Washington State elected the nation's first (excepting probably Hawaii) Asian governor (with less roughly a 10% Asian population). I just don't see anyway Clinton will get much more than 40% of the Washington vote and it wouldn't shock me if the results were more than 2-1 against her.

FWIW, a Survey USA poll conducted a couple days before Super Tuesday gave Obama a 53 to 40 advantage over Clinton.


by TheWinch on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 09:54:47 AM EST

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

As long as there are significantly more unpledged delegates than Hillary's superdelegate lead, then Obama's argument is plausible.

I think we all can do math enough to agree that 400 > 90, right?  The question is how much that changes by the time we have a clear winner in the PLEDGED delegate battle.

Dean seems to be drawing a line in the sand in April.  Is he able to herd cats enough to convince the wide swath of uncommitted supers to back the pledged delegate leader at that point?  It's the only way to avoid a brokered convention, IMHO.

Neither Obama nor Clinton has any motivation or incentive to back down.  Neither one wants to be in the VP slot (or wants the other one on the ticket with them).  Even with significant wins and momentum between now and April, Dean will have to be involved or its brokered convention all the way.

The bottom line on MI and FL is that they MUST not be allowed to matter, either way.  If they are seated and change the result, it's an unfair manipulation of the rules laid down at the outset.  If their refusal to be seated changes the result, the optics will be bad for the Party.  Perhaps the only way to make them not matter and still seat delegates (without having a new caucus in each state) is through the superdelegate process.  That assumes that enough superdelegates are comfortable enough with the process and willing to make their personal power secondary to the good of the party.

I have no idea how this works out, but it's the only logical answer I can think of.


by NC State Dem on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:26:39 AM EST

Re: Bean counting the way (none / 0)

"The bottom line on MI and FL is that they MUST not be allowed to matter, either way."

Fuck you and your Karl Rove mentality


I believe in Hillary
by sonofdonkeykong on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 06:39:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Question on the delegate counter (none / 0)

On your Pledged delegate (w MI and FL) total you have

Clinton 939
Obama 808

For total you have

Clinton 1129
Obama 878

Unless I am missing something that would mean you have Clinton at 190 Superdelegates and Obama at 70.  Where are you getting these numbers.  The number ranges at Dem Convention watch put Clinton at 193-209 (right around where you are- difference of 3-19) but they have Obama 106-118 (Difference of 36-48).  What is the difference in your tracking systems that lead to dramatic difference on one candidate.


by labor nrrd on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 05:03:41 PM EST


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