Back From The Townhall

Wow, that was pretty boring but then again, I wasn't exactly the target audience. This was clearly targeted at women -- not only was it on The Hallmark Channel but for the first half hour she answered questions in "soft" Hillary mode, which only gave way to the much more appealing tough Hillary when the horrendous Carole Simpson started getting on her nerves.

Being there live, it was surprisingly low key. It was a really small space in Downtown LA but it was packed; at first, it was a pretty small crowd, under 100, but as the start time approached they had to break out more folding chairs to fit everyone. And I continue to be surprised how people react to a large screen image of someone. This crowd applauded her and was rapt with attention as though she were in the room. They also broke into a Hillary! chant unprovoked, so it seemed, but I don't know how many of these folks were volunteers instructed to do so. Clearly there was some element of political theatre to the proceedings but the enthusiasm you saw when the LA crowd went live certainly seemed real.

Seems to me this was an attempt to reach out to women, particularly casting Hillary as "the Mom," the sort of caretaker of the country. This event was just as much about calling that girl up onto the stage (which got "awwwwwwwws" from the live audience by the way) and showing Hillary interacting with Chelsea as it was delivering policy proposals and showing Clinton's toughness on the Bush administration. Watch out for the female vote tomorrow. This event plus an anecdote from one of the morning shows yesterday that a woman received several Hillary mailers while her husband received none --  seems to me the Clinton campaign is counting on overperforming among women tomorrow. I predict the turnout among women will be astronomical and the gender gap large -- they always seem to come through for her when she's threatened and Barack certainly is an electoral threat to her. This is going to be a very interesting day.

Update [2008-2-4 23:54:30 by Todd Beeton]:I should add that this was also an invaluable opportunity to sort of let Hillary into people's living rooms, something everyone needs to be comfortable with in any president. She certainly passed that test. And also it was a chance to allow people to see, who don't get to go to these sorts of events, just how impressive she actually is in this setting; I'm a little jaded having seen her do this sort of thing live so I'm no longer surprised by it, but to those that haven't, it's probably quite eye-opening.



Display:


Hillary Educating the Public (none / 0)

I think this was great way for Hillary to reach out to voters and educate them about the real issues.  No empty talk here, just the facts please and she delivered.  Obama talks of change and hope, but with no substance.  

I am a 32 year old white male and she has won my vote!

Go Hillary!!!


by Scope441 on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 11:44:19 PM EST

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

She'll have to do more of these if she's going to have a chance against McCain.


by mikelow1885 on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 11:45:04 PM EST

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

McCain doesn't stand a chance against her.  Besides, the republicans hate him, half won't even vote for him and we have Ann Coulter calling herself a "Hillary Girl" and willing to campaign for Hillary if McCain wins.  I am thinking McCain is the easiest to beat now.


by Scope441 on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 11:49:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (1.00 / 0)

Keep saying that to yourself, you might start to believe it. If you have been paying attention, you would know that McCain is the nominee, and he will wheel to the left to pick up independents and disillusioned Obama supporters, and beat Hillary's fat ass like a red headed stepchild.

Oh yeah, Hillary will win the over 50 year-old women in the general, and nobody else. Hillary is Dukakis II


by busdrivermike on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:12:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

well hillary has beaten obama in nh, mi, nv and fl.  so i would say she is off to a good start.  bring it on.
wait till the republicans roll out the church obama belongs to and see how quickly they destroy him.  just the line on the church website "non-negotiable commitment to africa" is enough to scare off most white voters and patriots.
by Scope441 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:15:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

I am a firm believer in the right to believe in God and any form of God. But I do admit that some time over the summer, I did go to some African American website, on accident really and notice Obama being endorsed by an American Muslim leader. It has nothing do with his own faith as I am sure that was a gesture in the African American communities to align. But that the Republicans are not into the First Amendment.


by Vote4Hillary on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 04:47:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

Um, I'm not even close to 50 and I am firmly in Hillary camp.


by Dari on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:38:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

If you did not hear, McCain is worried that Hillary Clinton will be the Nominee in the infamous question at a rally. "How are we going to beat the b-i-t-c-h?" He said, "Excellent question."

Get your facts straight or at least close.


by DISSENTisPatriotic on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:24:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

I found the townhall challenging and inspiring.  


by truthteller2007 on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 11:47:57 PM EST

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

And now Hillary is on David Letterman.


by truthteller2007 on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 11:48:13 PM EST

Re: yeah, I don't think the target audience (none / 0)

  You're a tool.  Anyway.

  I agree that female turnout will be of the super-enormous-tsunami variety.  It would be nice if someone reported that.  The only pollster to predict overwhelming female turnout is SUSA.  They predict that the electorate will be between 57% and 61% in various states tomorrow.  Unsurprisingly, their polls favor Clinton.  Zogby predicts an even gender split.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 11:48:52 PM EST

Re: yeah, I don't think the target audience (none / 0)

Are they really? Many firms don't give easy access to the internals, which drives me crazy. Where did you see this?

I personally think all firms should be required to present ALL information to the public.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:22:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah, I don't think the target audience (none / 0)

 Well, Zogby does not release his internals by gender.  I think that's so that no one can see the crappiness within.  However, you can calculate the gender ratio simply by comparing the overall poll to the support each candidate gets from each gender.

For example:
Overall Poll: Clinton 43 Obama 43
Support from Men:  Clinton 40 Obama 46
Support from Women: Clinton 46  Clinton 40

Therefore it can be concluded from this that the gender ratio in this poll is 50/50.

I did this with Zogby's latest polls, and I never got above 51% for women.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:29:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah, I don't think the target audience (none / 0)

One of the recent California polls had 8% Latino. In the 2004 California primary, Latino/a voters were 15% of the electorate. I assume the pollsters have some reason to believe that the percentage of Latino/a voters will decline in half since 2004. Maybe Kerry had a big connection with Latino/a voters?


by hwc on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:36:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah, I don't think the target audience (none / 0)

  SUSA's last California poll was 27% Hispanic and 8% black.  That's too many Latinos and too few AA's I think.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:41:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah, I don't think the target audience (2.00 / 1)

The Af Am percentage is about right. It's single digits in California based on the 2004 Democratic primary exit polls.


by hwc on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:47:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah, I don't think the target audience (none / 0)

heh. Obama booster. that's rich.


by Todd Beeton on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 11:49:32 PM EST

Re: yeah, I don't think the target audience (none / 0)

I think he meant 'rooster'.


by Vote4Hillary on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 04:43:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

I quite agree that the strategy was to reach women

As a male supporter of Hillary, I hope it works!!

If I was a woman-no matter what age--there would be no way on earth that I would succumb to the Obama 'magic'and when I got in that polling booth I'd vote for Hill-thinking one of 4 main reasons why-1)If I don't I will likely never see a woman president in maybe 40 years so it's now or never--2)If I don't, we'll never have a prayer at universal health care since Obama's plan is seriously flawed and he's not passionate about it anyway--3)Hillary's experience of 'doing' when we face tough times---4)the more I see her, the more I'm liking her.

Any one of those reasons may well be the deciding factor once women get to the 2-3 seconds to cast their vote.

As I man, I have been a staunch supporter of Hillary for 3 months now. It frankly astonishes me how gullible some of the Obama folks are

am wondering if the independents voting for him are really right leaning GOP supporters who want Obama as the nominee beacuse they are much more nervous about facing Hillary--dunno


by ionsys on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:01:43 AM EST

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

Obama's Health Care Plan is another Empty Bucket filled with holes so he can sell it off for more paybacks and be excused from its demise.


by DISSENTisPatriotic on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:27:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

This article from the American Spector:

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp ?art_id=12671

Would seem to argue against the "independents are really right-wingers trying to fix the general election to beat Obama" idea


by anayfack on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:33:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

You know that some women are also sexist. Self hate is part of the -isms we all face. Some people hate themselves because they are Not Black. Some hate themselves because they have Brown Eyes. All of those catagorisms need to be chucked out the window.


by Vote4Hillary on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 04:52:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

http://tomwatson.typepad.com/tom_watson/ 2008/01/the-sexist-medi.html


by Vote4Hillary on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 05:09:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

clinton is now discussing her platform on letterman.


by truthteller2007 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:12:32 AM EST

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

Usually men are happy to be around a plethora of women. But it seems that you do not like women. Why is that?


by DISSENTisPatriotic on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:13:14 AM EST

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

As a gay man, I have always noticed this. Straight guys are incredibly dependent upon women but really don't like them. Gay men tend to like women, and get along with them. Very odd.


by DaleA on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:34:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

I beg to differ.  I'm a straight man and I love women - I married one, and I have two others heading off to college next year.


by beerwulf on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:39:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

Liking women and needing to breed are two separate issues. One is natural the other genetic.


by Vote4Hillary on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 04:54:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

<snark>
Liking women and wanting to try on their shoes are two different things, too.
</snark>
by beerwulf on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:07:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

what about my post makes you think I don't like women generally or Hillary Clinton specifically?


by Todd Beeton on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:57:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

Todd, you're doing a great job, no matter your political loyalties.  I think you have been incredibly objective, no matter your choice in this campaign....


by Zeitgeist9000 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 03:17:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah, I don't think the target audience (none / 0)

Thank you for Calling the Joker on his Joke.
Really, the Obama people who enter the Clinton camp, act like spies, then try to play with our heads and trick us by their mind games are evil. I mean they are truly maniacal.

If we did that to them, Oh My God, you are spying on Bambi the Underdog--our Okie Doke Bamboozle Shuck-n-Jive Artist.


by DISSENTisPatriotic on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:21:48 AM EST

Re: yeah, I don't think the target audience (none / 0)

  I suppose they're allied with the Paulbots and the Free Masons as well.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:30:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah, I don't think the target audience (none / 0)

what the hell are you talking about?


by Todd Beeton on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:55:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (2.00 / 1)

I think many people are motivated by two things, Fear (Repubs) and Hope (Dems). The problem is that people are so motivated by these things that they tend to cling to the "savior" types, in either party.

As a nation, many people have refused to examine the facts and have not allowed solid conscious to lead them. With that said, I have to admit that I too am moved by Obama's speeches. He's ignited something in people that many haven't witnessed since a generation ago. Yes, he has that X factor.

But I am not naive.

You can't sway me with JUST a good speech and no real content. After hearing him woo the crowd at Washington Square Park some months ago, I can distinctly remember that when the energy of the crowd and the messianic speech began to wear, I was left thinking "this guy didn't really SAY anything (substantive). Same with the debates. Why not? Isn't that what campaigning is about - to educate the electorate to your vision?? They're not simply pep rallys for political science majors and people seeking saviors.

For me, its not a gender or racial issue (I am a married, successful, man of color).

My decision to elect the next president will be based on solid, sound, and experienced ideas/ solutions to our country's problems.

This is what has led me to my decision to support Hillary. I can only HOPE that a majority of American's see the same things tomorrow (in the 22 states).


by devoted1 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:22:27 AM EST

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

OMG: thank the gods that your brain is working!

If you did not see it, check out Obama's Joshua Generation speech on PBS wherein he demonstrates that he can talk like a Souther Baptist Pastor.


by DISSENTisPatriotic on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:28:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

Ironically, in a crusade to win Southern Black voters, he chose Donnie McClurkin, one of the most bigoted, self-hating (truly believes that gay men can "pray" their homosexuality away as he has purportedly done) to lead the charge.
Was a major tipping point for me.

That would be like promising amnesty to undocumented workers in front of the Cesar Chavez Democrat Club on Tuesday, and then pledging to support Jim Gilchrist's mission on Wednesday.


by devoted1 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:39:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No Way McCain has a Shot... (none / 0)

1.  Fear and war mongering against Iraq from the beginning;

  1.  Fear and war mongering against Iran up through the present;
  2.  No chance of even a small time career in politics if it weren't for spouse's money/connections; and
  3.  While a loyal tool for Big Business, pandering to social conservatives didn't fool anyone and probably alienated the base.

After this incompetent, shameless tool, this unqualified son of nepotism we call Bush, there is just no way many people could stomach a vote for McCain.  He's identical to Bush in each respect, and I don't think the country's getting fooled this time.  We couldn't be that stupid.  Could we?


by fiver on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:23:15 AM EST

Re: No Way McCain has a Shot... (none / 0)

Dream on.

McCain has passed the Commander-in-Chief threshold. That makes him very dangerous for the Democrats who eternally struggle to find a candidate Americans can vizualize in charge of the United States military.


by hwc on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:27:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Way McCain has a Shot... (none / 0)

I think you're misreading McCain.  Right now, America really wants to get the hell out of Iraq and get back to beating up on the Taliban an al Qaeda in Pakistan.  McCain saying we'll be in Iraq for a hundred years can be played over and over again and be our best commercial.  Follow that up with how much money Iraq is costing per day, and how many bridges we could fix or school lunches we could buy or teachers we could train for that same money.  Follow that up with "John McCain served his country well when he was younger; why is he willing to bankrupt it now?"


by beerwulf on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:43:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Way McCain has a Shot... (none / 0)

Yes. Americans want to draw down our troop levels in Iraq. But, they don't want a typical white-flag waving weak-knee Democratic. If that's the choice, they'll go with McCain.

Remember, 70% of Americans supported the invasion of Iraq. Believing that the anti-war Left represents mainstream American perspectives on national security is a mistake that Democrats make over and over and over.


by hwc on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:50:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Way McCain has a Shot... (none / 0)

When I was in college, years ago now, only 17% of the population were college educated. 100-17... does that mean that the educated population has grown a few percentages? Those of us with eyes to see and ears to hear could see the lies in the layers of the unfolding propaganda of baiting and switching between Afganistan and Iraq, terrorists and Saddamn Houssein, etc...

But the press went along with it tooth and nail so that we all were stuck with that agenda. Unless one gets away from the media and clears the mind, it is hard to stop ourselves from believing what goes in one ear and out the other. Some of that background noise just deposits into the brain.

Advertisers have known that repetition builds belief. We call that consumerism and marketing. Really, the Democrats need to wake up from self sabatage and get a reality check now and again. The one think Obama did was to place Clinton into a check mate long enough to wo/man all battle stations.


by Vote4Hillary on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 05:02:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Hallmark Channel? (none / 0)

I guess some people watch the Hallmark Channel, but let's not get carried away here. About 84 million homes have the ability to tune in the Hallmark Channel, and in a typical prime time block the channel (over the entire block) has about 1 million homes that stop long enough to watch at least a little of their programming. (The average stop is 26 minutes.)


by BBCWatcher on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:34:08 AM EST

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

McCain and Hillary Clinton have both served on the same Armed Forces Commitee:
http://armed-services.senate.gov/members .htm

Both are qualified in taking Command of the Armed Forces. Hillary Clinton has the Gen. Wesley Clark (Ret but Officers really never retire under emergency):
http://securingamerica.com/node/2662

Here's what Bill Clinton said about the both of them in South Carolina:

"She and John McCain are very close," Clinton said. "They always laugh that if they wound up being the nominees of their party, it would be the most civilized election in American history, and they're afraid they'd put the voters to sleep because they like and respect each other."

Hillary Clinton is Electable, and apparently so is McCain. The real difference is that Clinton wants to bring the troops home as soon as possible and McCain is willing to keep them for a hundred years. For our sake, he will not live that long but we really do need to bring back the troops!


by DISSENTisPatriotic on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:37:04 AM EST

Re: Back From The Townhall (2.00 / 1)

I just came back from a little get-together that a friend organized to help her "undecided" friend choose a candidate. There were several Hillary supporters, Obama supporters and one undecided. We had a very spirited debate and everytime I asked for specifics to help me better understand the rhetoric like "Obama is a uniter" I got a lot of uncomfortable silences. I found that there wasn't much more than "I just feel like he would be a better President that Hillary. There is more potential upside." How can I argue with that?!

However, I commended them on their passion as I'm equally as passionate about my candidate. I also expressed concerns about the Hillary hate and wondered if we, as a party, could overcome it if she were elected. In the end, we argued and we laughed, but it was clear that these Obama supporters are really voting for "potential" and what can I say about that? I'm glad they're passionate and know I had no chance of swaying them.

What was disturbing though was the ease at which they bashed Bill's years in office - even going so far as to completely attribute the strong economy at the time to luck. On top of that, it was a lot of "the Clinton's are dirty - they play dirty politics". Wow, I thought I had been transported back in time to the 90s and was speaking to a bunch of Republicans. My jaw was on the floor.

Don't vote for Hillary if you don't want to, but the rhetoric that was being spewed was truly staggering. Maybe it's because I lived through those times and they weren't old enough to understand what was going on - or maybe I'm just biased towards Hillary, but it really did worry me about the fate of our party.


by Dari on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:51:01 AM EST

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

That rhetoric is driving people out of the Democratic Party.


by hwc on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:53:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

But driving them where? I would be there if there were a party I identified with, but where is that party!!


by Dari on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:54:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (2.00 / 1)

unfortunately, the republican bashing of the 90's has found its way into our own party.  i have been saying this for awhile, that obamanuts talk like republicans when they rip clinton apart.  if you notice, its never on issues either.  they always rip her on personality, like the republicans always have.  
happy your friends are voting for the candidate they feel has the most upside, even though they couldn't address any issues.  upside is fine, but with that comes a lot of potential downside.  voting on potential upside, without even knowing about the issues is sh*tty way to try winning the white house and certainly not a way to run a country.  
saddens me that people hop on a bandwagan without even knowing why they are doing so.  seems to me they are just following the crowd because it's cool.  how else can it be explained when they couldn't even mention an issue that is important to them that obama supports.
republicans are just waiting for us to throw obama into the ring.
by Scope441 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:17:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

Funny, in reading the comments on this thread, I see a lot of Clinton supporters ripping Obama and his supporters for their personalities, using labels and slurs, not issues.   It is human nature for most people to chose based on the 30,000 foot view, not the weeds of particular issues.  

Complaining about behavior while engaging in it is also typical - but you (and this is a collective address) may want to consider it while posting.


by SKI on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:27:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

Maybe, but I was talking about a real debate that happened between 10 people. Questions were asked and none of the Obama supporters present could answer them. I'm not going to characterize all Obama-supporters are such, but these Obama supporters were not well informed.


by Dari on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:32:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

I wasn't addressing your anecdote as much as the comments on this thread like:

i have been saying this for awhile, that obamanuts talk like republicans when they rip clinton apart.  if you notice, its never on issues either.  they always rip her on personality, like the republicans always have.


by SKI on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:39:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

You're absolutely right, but and it was pretty clear early on that challenging them on specifics was going to make them look bad and me look like an elitist, so I stopped because that wasn't my point. I changed my tone and tried to share my own concerns about our party and commend them on being so passionate when what I really wanted to say was "Do you realize how dangerous you are?"

It was seriously scary. I knew it wasn't about reality. It's about deep-seated feelings and you just can't rationalize with feelings.

I do worry what will happen if Hillary is elected. As much as I want it to happen, I also would be interested to see an Obama presidency where he's a victim of the same attack Bill was and Michelle the same as Hillary. Maybe then our party could find some healing? Who knows. We get what we deserve, that's for sure.


by Dari on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:27:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

After seeing the true colors of the Democratic Party in recent months, my new operating premise is "a pox on both your houses".

I will no longer give a Democratic candidate for any office the benefit of the doubt. All candidates will start at ground zero with me. If I see one who is qualified for the job he or she is running for, I'll vote. If not, I'll stay home.


by hwc on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:41:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

Are you really surprised that they are bashing the Clinton years? After the last seven years of relentless passing of all blame backwards?


by Judeling on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:11:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

I seem to recall quite a bit of "passing the blame" in the years before the current administration too.

In fact, EVERY administration has tried to blame others for bad stuff that happens - it is quintessentially human behavior, particularly from supporters.

And let's be honest, while the Clinton years were stratospherically better than what preceded or followed them, they weren't perfect by any stretch.  And they certainly weren't particularly progressive - except as compared to the GOP  administrations.   Many of us were rightfully irritated and disappointed by the Clintons and their failures - particularly by there failures of nerve.  They chose, time and time again, to move to the middle and "triangulate" rather than make a stand for progressivism.


by SKI on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:23:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

I agree, but do you really think progressive policy had/has a chance? Sometimes I wonder how we'll ever get there. So many just want to fight that kind of change.


by Dari on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:29:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

The ONLY way we will get there is the same way the Republicans got their conservative message to become the dominant political theme for 25+ years - marrying hard-nosed politics with inspirational rhetoric.   We need to use universally applicable American themes to generate votes for the "foot-soldiers" in Congress (and state races) that allow us to pass the legislation that is necessary.  

Look, I like Hillary but I don't see her changing the game. At best, she will try for and achieve incremental change.  Her entire mindset is based in the wars she survived.  

From my real politik perspective, choosing her as our general is akin to choosing the winning generals from the last war to fight the next one - a decision that frequently leads to disasters like the Maginot Line.

Bill Clinton's mantra was that the age of Big Government was over. In essence, he bought into Reagan's language.  Now, he had to politically because he hadn't/couldn't rewrite the rules and change the country's political/philosophical orientation.  Neither can Hillary.  Obama has the potential to do so.  


by SKI on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:49:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

Well, it's an interesting premise. You may get your wish and then let's see if he can pull it off. I'll be watching closely if he does get elected. Good luck! :-)


by Dari on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:56:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

Hillary is changing the Game Pieces. First, Hillary already has people who are willing and able to serve  at her beck and call. That is a fact.

Take a look at Gen. Wesley Clark:
http://securingamerica.com/node/2662

Among her Super Delagates, she already has backing on so many fronts that she can walk in on Day One and have people with her. She has relationships which go back for decades. I met a local one last week. She has traveled this country and to other countries in which she has made friendships last over time. Once she is Inaugurated, wham! All the Chess Pieces begin to move-- in sync.


by Vote4Hillary on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 05:06:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

Getting endorsements isn't "changing the game."

And it has nothing to do with "changing the Game Pieces" - it has to do with fundamentally restructuring the narratives.  And Hilliary is proving she isn't doing that.

Prime example:  her proposal to deport immigrants accused of having committed crimes without recourse due process.  How can anyone claiming to be committed to the rule of law propose this one?  What is her rationale? The only one I can conceive of is that she is buying into, if only for political advantage, the current GOP theme that immigrants are the enemy.  As Publius at Obsidian Wings notes: "while her immigrant-bashing might help her tactically, it's a long-term loser because it solidifies the view that (1) legal process is something one must earn; and (2) immigrants are bad."
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_ wings/2008/02/losing-in-trans.html#more


by SKI on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:44:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

Clinton knocked it out of the park on Letterman as well. She was funny, gracious and at the end practically said Barack will be her running mate. Good stuff


by rossinatl on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 02:13:51 AM EST

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

The Letterman interview was incredible. The best interview I've seen a candidate give all year.

One correction though. She said that she had narrowed her VP choices down to two:

Dave or Regis.


by hwc on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 02:51:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

in my opinion, this Obama as VP line... (none / 0)

is one that we will be hearing more of from the Clinton camp in the coming weeks.  It is a strategic move, I believe derived from Penn's polling.  They are picking up that a lot of undecideds can't make up their mind because they really like Obama, including those who eventually end up with HRC.  They will push the idea that you should vote for HRC as the nominee and then she will choose Obama as VP and therefore you get both - a vote for Hillary is in effect a vote for both.  This plays into the concern of some that Obama may not be quite ready.  Anecdotally, in my experience with the Obama campaign, I was running into a lot of this type of thinking among older voters.

The Obama campaign has to push back against this idea in a smart way before it connects on a large scale.  I don't think he should say that he wouldn't take it (because he might) but something along the lines that she to earn the right to choose the VP by winning the nomination first.  And that any talk of VP's is calculating.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 04:55:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: in my opinion, this Obama as VP line... (none / 0)

I totally agree, it is a deplorable tactic and it has emerged in the last few days.  Curiously, I heard it her first among Hillary supporters here then most recently hinted at by Carville, Bill and others.  It is another bit of political destructiveness from the Clinton camp, a Rovian attempt to hitch her campaign to the success of her adversary whom she has bitterly attempted to demolish as recently as during the South Carolina campaign.

It is dangerous, to be sure.  Another variation of the 'wait your turn' narrative deployed with the Andrew Young statements last December.  Those two would do anything to win.  The objections, besides the sheer Machiavellian cynicism of it, are too numerous to mention.  I can think of nothing more toxic to Obama's career than to be associated with the Clintons.  One useful tactic is to remind people that the VP in a Clinton administration would have to deal with Bill as an actor and comments like 'Where would they put his office?' or 'Wouldn't it be a bit crowded in the White House with Bill there?' have the benefit of reminding people of the unattractive and problematic aspects of the Clinton restoration.  There is also the excellent example of Al Gore's difficulties as VP, and things like 'Well, it didn't work out very well for Al' raises other issues which the Clintons have created for themselves when playing with others.

The 'gotcha' in this is that at some point Obama would have to refuse the VP position, which is what I think the Clinton strategy intends, and they will use that as an opportunity to impugn his loyalty as a Democrat, essentially blaming him for the difficulties they have created themselves regarding her electability, which is questionable.

It's not surprising to see this kind of arrogant and cynical ploy emerging from the Clinton campaign, they will do or say anything to win, as we have recently observed.  And that goes for her supporters too, after the months of insulting and deprecatory half-truths they have been circulating on this web site, for example, in an attempt to diminish him and his achievements and the obvious contempt that they have for his supporters, it is ironic that this is the next strategy they will employ.  But here we can easily quote back their own repulsiveness to them and question their integrity on the subject, not that it was ever in much evidence in the first instance.

As a loyal Obama supporter I find the notion that he would even be interested in the vice-presidency, never mind willing to serve with the Clintons, utterly implausible.  It is a measure of their own sympathy for aggrandising politicians and their petty ambitions that they would consider that this demeaning gesture toward Senator Obama would ultimately result in anything but him telling the Clintons to go suck eggs.  You have to admire them for audacity but they haven't got a hope.


by Shaun Appleby on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 06:41:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Back From The Townhall (none / 0)

I am going to say this very clearly: I respect McCain. He is a Senior Senator, War Hero and Genuine  person. However, his Hundred Year War is a bit ludicrous. I cannot even see the Republicans going for that when a lot of their children would see that war. That point is the weakest one for him. Besides a few other laundry items, I am sure that American in the General Election will not go for that again.

Of course, I could not believe that they voted Bush in twice. I have to believe that was totally fraudulent. It is really just out of this world crazy.


by Vote4Hillary on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 04:50:34 AM EST


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