[UPDATED] Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Chance for Universal Health Care

Update [2008-2-4 2:24:17 by susanhu]: Below the fold, on the penalties Obama would impose to force compliance.

We Democrats have waited SINCE PRESIDENT HARRY TRUMAN (the late 1940s!) for a chance at universal health care.  It's within reach.  Let's not blow it on a candidate whose plan is weaker and who's already making ill-considered policy shifts (see below for a sad description of Obama's illogical backpedaling on mandates by considering the imposition of penalties on those who don't sign up).

Here's the "money quote" from Paul Krugman's column in tomorrow's New York Times (February 4, 2008):

If you combine the economic analysis with these political realities, here's what I think it says: If Mrs. Clinton gets the Democratic nomination, there is some chance - nobody knows how big - that we'll get universal health care in the next administration. If Mr. Obama gets the nomination, it just won't happen.

Krugman cites essential new information -- that every voter should know -- from an M.I.T. study by a renowned health care analyst comparing the two candidates' plans, important because, Krugman notes, the "principal policy division between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama involves health care":

[A]s I've tried to explain in previous columns, there really is a big difference between the candidates' approaches. And new research, just released, confirms what I've been saying: the difference between the plans could well be the difference between achieving universal health coverage - a key progressive goal - and falling far short.

Specifically, new estimates say that a plan resembling Mrs. Clinton's would cover almost twice as many of those now uninsured as a plan resembling Mr. Obama's - at only slightly higher cost.

Twice as many people.  That's huge. Obama has attacked Hillary Clinton repeatedly for mandating coverage -- but there are critical reasons that everyone be covered.  

NOW Obama is suggesting (as you'll see below) that he may "penalize" people who don't participate.  WHAT?  Penalize them?  Why not just include them in the first place?  

Talk about making up non-sensical policy on the fly!

Update [2008-2-4 2:24:17 by susanhu]: Ezra Klein, in "OBAMA'S "HARRY AND LOUISE" AD," his story at Prospect, offers a more detailed explanation of the penalty -- forcing people to pay back premiums -- that Obama would impose:

Obama not only has a mandate for kids in his own health care plan -- what if the parents can't pay, one might ask? -- but he said, in last night's debate, "If people are gaming the system, there are ways we can address that. By, for example, making them pay some of the back premiums for not having gotten it in the first place." That, of course, is exactly what a mandate does. Gaming the system, in this context, means not purchasing health care. And Obama is now threatening to force them to pay back premiums. That's a harsher penalty than anything Clinton has proposed.

Here's one key reason why mandatory universal coverage works: It forces insurance companies to cover everyone.  Another reason is that even young, robustly healthy people can face enormous medical bills from accidents or from rapidly growing diseases hitting the young, including diabetes and high blood pressure (that can be discovered and treated before they become expensive). And if they sign up before they get sick, the plan's costs would be lower. (Find out more here, including great analyses from Ezra Klein, Steve Clemons and The Urban Institute.)

Krugman continues:  

[B]oth plans seek to make insurance affordable to lower-income Americans. The Clinton plan is, however, more explicit about affordability, promising to limit insurance costs as a percentage of family income. And it also seems to include more funds for subsidies. [...]

Mr. Obama claims that people will buy insurance if it becomes affordable. Unfortunately, the evidence says otherwise.

[W]e already have programs that make health insurance free or very cheap to many low-income Americans, without requiring that they sign up ... many of those eligible fail, for whatever reason, to enroll.

An Obama-type plan would also face the problem of healthy people who ... don't sign up until they develop medical problems, thereby raising premiums for everyone else. Mr. Obama, contradicting his earlier assertions that affordability is the only bar to coverage, is now talking about penalizing those who delay signing up -- but it's not clear how this would work.

Krugman reports that Jonathan Gruber of M.I.T., "one of America's leading health care economists," explains in a new paper how Obama's plan leaves far more people uninsured -- and costs more:

Mr. Gruber finds that a plan without mandates, broadly resembling the Obama plan, would cover 23 million of those currently uninsured, at a taxpayer cost of $102 billion per year. An otherwise identical plan with mandates would cover 45 million of the uninsured -- essentially everyone -- at a taxpayer cost of $124 billion. Over all, the Obama-type plan would cost $4,400 per newly insured person, the Clinton-type plan only $2,700.

That doesn't look like a trivial difference to me. One plan achieves more or less universal coverage; the other, although it costs more than 80 percent as much, covers only about half of those currently uninsured.

As with any economic analysis, Mr. Gruber's results are only as good as his model. But they're consistent with the results of other analyses, such as a 2003 study, commissioned by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, that compared health reform plans and found that mandates made a big difference both to success in covering the uninsured and to cost-effectiveness.

And that's why many health care experts like Mr. Gruber strongly support mandates. ...

Krugman refers to the Obama campaign's ugly tactics against Clinton's health plan, and why "Mr. Obama's campaigning on the health care issue has sabotaged his own prospects":

You see, the Obama campaign has demonized the idea of mandates -- most recently in a scare-tactics mailer sent to voters that bears a striking resemblance to the "Harry and Louise" ads run by the insurance lobby in 1993, ads that helped undermine our last chance at getting universal health care.

I showed you that pamphlet the other day.  It's important to display it again.  It is UGLY, Chicago-style campaigning -- and, as Dr. Krugman points out, would sabotage the realization of even Obama's own weaker plan:

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

In a February 1 NYT blog post, "Obama Does Harry and Louise Again..." -- which I quote in my February 1st story, "Common Sense + Expert Opinions on Obama's Dangerously Flawed Health Care Plan " -- Krugman points out:

The Obama campaign sends out an ugly mailer. Sorry, but this is just destructive -- like the Obama plan, the Clinton plan offers subsidies to lower-income families. And BO himself has conceded that he might have to penalize people who don't buy insurance until they need care.

Read all of tomorrow's NYT column, "Clinton, Obama, Insurance."

THIS is the candidate who can make universal health insurance a reality:



Display:


Elect Hillary Clinton for Health Care! (2.00 / 1)

And your tips and comments are very welcome.


by susanhu on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:26:30 AM EST

Re: Elect Hillary Clinton for Health Care! (none / 0)

Now isn't this the problem, Susan?

It forces insurance companies to cover everyone.

Corporate health care is still with us, including the additional 15-20% surcharge for company profits, CEO salaries, large dividends, outlandish pharmaceutical prices, rip off hospital care costs, and rationing of care by clerk who will make decisions, preapprove, expensive interventions, anything that might reduce company profits.

If Krugman is not for single payer universal health care, then he is not for a liberal-socialist system as they have in the European and English speaking social democracies, and he is only running himself for a cabinet position. Medicare costs only 3% to administrate and it is the cheapest path to universal health care.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:54:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Krugman is for single payer (2.00 / 1)

trying reading his most recent book


"Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
by molly bloom on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:03:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman is for single payer (none / 0)

Then why is he supporting Hillary?

Hillary criticized Obama, if you recall, for supporting single payer health care earlier in his career. Hillary is no longer a liberal-socialist and is trying to reconstitute the Republican Lite administration of Bill Clinton.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 12:12:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman is for single payer (none / 0)

Ask Krugman. From what I can see, its because he thinks her plan is closer to his ideal (single payer) than Obama. Sometimes the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.


"Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
by molly bloom on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:39:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (2.00 / 1)

Krugman has lost credibility on the race. I'm fine with a pundit critiquing a candidate that as long as they are upfront about their preferences. But much like Jerome on this site, Krugman is virulently anti-Obama without giving equal time to Clinton's faults or even acknowledging that he supports Clinton.

As an example, Talking Points Memo interviewed Krugman and asked him about Clinton's far less progressive foreign policy stances. And Krugman said something to the effect of, foreign policy won't matter for the next president. That to me is intellectually dishonest.


by animated on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:27:04 AM EST

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (2.00 / 1)

Actually, I'm pretty sure Krugman supported Edwards. He praised him in quite a few columns before, and spent an entire column dedicated to singing his praises last week.


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:38:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

All I am saying is that I wish he would be more evenhanded in his critiques. Surely there are things to fault Clinton for, she's far from a perfect candidate from a progressive point of view, and yet every week it's another Obama hit piece. For instance, he rails against Obama on this one issue but never says a word about Obama's admirable efforts at government transparency and his far more progressive foreign policy ideas. I actually like the way most of the netroots bloggers have been fairly evenhanded in their criticism and to me it engenders more credibility for that writer in the long run.


by animated on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:45:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (2.00 / 0)

Well, Krugman is an economist by training. This issue means more to him than the others.

I don't think he talks about foreign policy much at all in general.


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:46:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

Actually, Krugman was an ardent and articulate critic of Bush's foreign policy, and the Iraq war in particular, back when the front pages of his own paper was pushing misleading pro-war stories. That's why it's mystifying to me that he conveniently ignores Clinton's hawkishness and refuses to praise Obama's effort to chart a new course. Let's face it, if we get a Democratic president the health care plan will be heavily influenced by Congress, which I assume will be Democratic as well, but the foreign policy will be the president's own.


by animated on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:59:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

My memory is perhaps failing me here. I remember Kristof criticizing foreign policy a lot.


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:03:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

Here's an example:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.ht ml?res=9904E6DE1E3BF932A25751C0A9659C8B6 3


by animated on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:11:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

Okay, point taken. But I don't think his credibility is much diminished. He's simply chosen the issues he thinks are most important this time.


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:16:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (2.00 / 1)

When Obama says he will negotiate directly with Iranian leaders and Clinton rejects that idea, she's attacking a progressive position, yet Krugman says nothing.

When Clinton says we should have a ticking time bomb exemption for torture and then disingenuously switches her position in time for the primary, that doesn't sound too progressive to me. Where was Krugman?

When Clinton earmarks billions of dollars for the defense industry and Obama pushes earmark reform and Clinton resists, that doesn't seem so progressive. Still, no word from Krugman.

This idea of Obama selling out and Clinton being a uber-progressive is nothing more than wishful thinking. Yes, Obama pushes the unity rhetoric but there is plenty to critique Clinton on.

I have no problem with pundits "taking sides" in the primary. But I think it gives them more credibility if they either (a) openly state their preference or (b) honestly and fairly critique all the candidates. Otherwise we are getting a biased view of one candidate over the other from an allegedly "neutral" observer. And that is not the Fox News ethos by the way, the Fox News ethos is to pretend to be neutral when you are actually anything but.


by animated on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:51:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (2.00 / 1)

animated - If you want to write a diary about what a big meanie Paul Krugman is, go ahead. I'm sure all the Obama backers will recommend it.

Meanwhile, THIS diary is about healthcare. I get the impression you would rather attack Krugman than try to defend Obama's healthcare plan.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 03:13:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

"Meanwhile, THIS diary is about healthcare."

Really? Scroll further down the page and you'll see HRC supporters discussing gay hookers or something. At least Krugman was tangentially related.:)


by animated on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 03:36:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (2.00 / 1)

OK, so you are not the only one who has tried to hijack the thread. But thanks for admitting that you tried to hijack the thread.

Attention all you people further down the page talking about gay hookers and other stuff - there is an open thread on the front page.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 03:44:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

I'm not hijacking. It's not my fault Krugman has a weird obsession with Barack Obama, and he deserves to be called out on it. After all, this diary title has his name in it.


by animated on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:31:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama also threatened to bomb Pakistan (2.00 / 1)

Remember that one? I'm deeply perturbed by Sen. Clinton's foreign policy snafus, but if the next President can't get us universal health care, we might as well give it up, because the GOP will come back big time. I really like Obama, but I could only vote for him only if I believed that 80 percent of what he is saying is bullshit.  If ends up wasting eight months of his first term "reaching out" to the GOP with watered-down policy recommendations, he will get his ass handed to him and his big bubble will burst big time.

I get to vote on Feb 12. I was an Edwards person, and I really wish Obama would give me a solid reason besides electability to vote for him. Maybye there still is time, but he hasn't done much to convince me.  


by alexmhogan on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:43:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Krugman and Obama (none / 0)

I get the impression it's personal between them.


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:33:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman and Obama (2.00 / 1)

Even if it is personal, which I doubt, that doesn't mean that Krugman's argument is incorrect.


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:36:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman and Obama (none / 0)

No, but I don't think that what the candidates are saying about health care at this point is terribly important.

It will be modified for the general election.

And it will be modified in Congress. And how it will be modified in Congress will be determined by who gets elected.

Will the Dems running for Congress do better with HRC or Obama at the top of the ticket?


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:43:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman and Obama (none / 0)

Obama is campaigning using rightwing talking points and shooting down progressive positions.

I don't trust him!


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:21:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (2.00 / 1)

he's an economist and health care is the issue he is talking about.  Why would anyone ask him about foreign policy? lol


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:56:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Changing the subject (2.00 / 1)

what does Foreign policy have to do with health care?

Either you think there is merit to Krugman's critique of the health care plans or you don't.

When there is a blog post on Krugman and his views on foreign policy, we can argue whether there is merit to those views or not.


"Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
by molly bloom on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:05:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

I thought Obama was all about falling into the trap of false hopes? You know, JFK: moon too far can't do it, etc. Now his supporters are saying: UHC too unpopular, can't do it.

What's the point of winning elections if we're not going to try to get things done?


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:40:34 AM EST

using your reasoning... (2.00 / 2)

why don't you call on HRC to propose a single payer system.  Medicare for everyone.  Or explain to me why she hasn't put forth a single payer system.

We both know that the answer has to do with political feasibility.  

So, this debate boils down to whose judgment is better about assessing political feasibility.  If you think that a mandated, garnish your wages plan has a chance of getting through Congress, then you should favor HRC's judgment (and with her baggage on this issue, get a grip!).  If you believe that a plan which emphasizes affordability and universal access to affordable health care has a greater chance of getting through Congress, then you should favor Obama's judgment.

And it's not only Congress.  What reaction do you think that people will have to having their paychecks being garnished when reality hits home?    

Personally, I see zero chance of HRC's plan getting through Congress.  Do you see people like Ben Nelson or Diane Feinstein voting for mandates?  

Obama is not just about idealism, it is a pragmatic idealism.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:19:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: using your reasoning... (none / 0)

Well, how is Obama going to get people to pay for his mandates on children?

People are having their paychecks garnished now to pay for Social Security and Medicare. It's not unheard of.

At some point "pragmatic idealism" simply becomes "caving in". To me, universal health care should be a core Democratic value. We're the only Western country not to have it. How can it be that we're less ambitious now than Jesse Jackson was in 1988 and Bill Clinton was in 1994? Are we going backwards?

In any case, you seem to be saying that mandates are good in theory, but politically infeasible. That's not what Obama is saying. He's saying that mandates are bad, because the big evil government is going to force you to buy insurance you can't afford. And he's not for single-payer either (nor was he ever, despite video evidence to the contrary). So really, it seems he's against universal health care entirely.


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:34:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (2.00 / 1)

As I wrote in another diary, what's worse is that the Democratic establishment is falling over itself to support him. It's like they're afraid of fighting for universal health care themselves.


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:41:40 AM EST

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

I think he will appoint pro-choice judges, because it's essentially risk-free. My guess is that's why he's opposed to mandates--it's too big of a risk (see what happened in 1994). Either that or he genuinely believes his rhetoric, which is far more disturbing.


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:43:46 AM EST

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (2.00 / 1)

Krugman is making a series of cogent, rational and compelling arguments.

Glossing over some of the more visceral replies here... Man oh man.

I think it's time to lift up the level of discourse.


by nv1962 on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:44:40 AM EST

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (2.00 / 1)

It really is as simple as this. If you want there to be any chance at all for universal health care in the next decade or so, you have to vote for Hillary Clinton.


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:45:08 AM EST

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

"It really is as simple as this. If you want there to be any chance at all for universal health care in the next decade or so, you have to vote for Hillary Clinton."

Right.  Because of the bangup job she did on universal healthcare in the last Clinton administration, eh?


by davey jones on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:57:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (2.00 / 1)

I'm tired of this. So she tried and failed before. She learned her lessons about what worked and what didn't, and applied them to SCHIP, and now to this plan.

She may not do it this time, either. But Obama isn't merely not proposing UHC, he's actively against it. His chance of getting it done is exactly zero.


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:02:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (2.00 / 1)

I was happy Hillary Clinton attempted to do something on health care in 1993 - even if it failed.  If not for that, the cause of universal health care would not have progressed this far in this campaign.  Her goal was fine, I think the timing was wrong - people weren't ready to hear it 15 years ago. But I find the literature Obama is sending out offensive - whether he or Hillary get the nomination, this will come back to haunt us in the general.  And if he does win, the republicans will delight in using this ad in their campaign to defeat Obama on health care. I have heard alot of Obama supporters say "Hillary will do or say anything to win" - obviously, in this case, the shoe is on the other foot.  Health care is too important an issue to some of us democrats to use as an election football by democratic candidates.


by AnnC on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:40:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

another childish post from an Obama guy (2.00 / 1)

no surprise.

People have tried and failed and tried again... Obama will probably try again to become our nominee in 8 years.  Will you ignore him because he failed this time?

In fact Clinton was beaten by exactly the sorts of right wing arguments against UHC that Obama is making now. Shame on him. His ambition knows no bounds and has no shame.


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:59:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Its true she tried and failed once before, but (2.00 / 1)

your snark doesn't address Krugman's critique of the plans. I gather you do not have an  intelligent well thought out opinion on this subject which actually addresses the Krugman critique on why mandates are necessary.


"Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
by molly bloom on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:09:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Why it is so important to have universal healthcar (2.00 / 1)

Lots of folks couldn't afford healthcare or under insured.  You will see the important of having sufficient healthcare the most when you need it.  And it will be too late.  It is sad for a family when there is sickness but they can't get medical treatment.  A good quality healthcare should be a fundamental right of every citizen.  But for the moment is a privilege for the fortunate few.  

In many Western-European countries, they also have universal healthcare for their citizen.  It's' mandatory, everyone needs to have a plan.  So they can ensure that everyone will have access to medical treatment.  


by JoeySky18 on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:47:27 AM EST

Re: Why it is so important to have universal healt (2.00 / 1)

I agree with most of it. But the problem right now is that health care is the privilege of the fortunate many, not the few, which includes all lawmakers and most voters. So it's easy to scare them with rhetoric such as Obama's.


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:53:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman (none / 0)

I think everyone interested in these health care debates should read this piece by Krugman--written before the primaries.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18802

You will notice that mandates don't receive any mention from Krugman. All this emphasis on mandates is really quite silly. There are dozens of problems that explain the high costs and inefficiencies of our health care system, and uncompensated care (which mandates would theoretically eliminate) is not one of the more significant ones.


by DPW on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:52:17 AM EST

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (2.00 / 1)

Well, his proposed solution is single-payer. I'm sure Hillary agrees with that. Her choice of individual mandates is based on political realities, as Krugman predicts:

A mere shift of power from Republicans to Democrats would not, in itself, be enough to give us sensible health care reform. While Democrats would have written a less perverse drug bill, it's not clear that they are ready to embrace a single-payer system. Even liberal economists and scholars at progressive think tanks tend to shy away from proposing a straightforward system of national health insurance. Instead, they propose fairly complex compromise plans. Typically, such plans try to achieve universal coverage by requiring everyone to buy health insurance, the way everyone is forced to buy car insurance, and deal with those who can't afford to purchase insurance through a system of subsidies. Proponents of such plans make a few arguments for their superiority to a single-payer system, mainly the (dubious) claim that single-payer would reduce medical innovation. But the main reason for not proposing single-payer is political fear: reformers believe that private insurers are too powerful to cut out of the loop, and that a single-payer plan would be too easily demonized by business and political propagandists as "big government."

He also does talk about the exact problem with not having a mandate:

So the only way modern medical care can be made available to anyone other than the very rich is through health insurance. Yet it's very difficult for the private sector to provide such insurance, because health insurance suffers from a particularly acute case of a well-known economic problem known as adverse selection. Here's how it works: imagine an insurer who offered policies to anyone, with the annual premium set to cover the average person's health care expenses, plus the administrative costs of running the insurance company. Who would sign up? The answer, unfortunately, is that the insurer's customers wouldn't be a representative sample of the population. Healthy people, with little reason to expect high medical bills, would probably shun policies priced to reflect the average person's health costs. On the other hand, unhealthy people would find the policies very attractive.

You can see where this is going. The insurance company would quickly find that because its clientele was tilted toward those with high medical costs, its actual costs per customer were much higher than those of the average member of the population. So it would have to raise premiums to cover those higher costs. However, this would disproportionately drive off its healthier customers, leaving it with an even less healthy customer base, requiring a further rise in premiums, and so on.

As long as we don't have mandates, this will be a huge problem. I don't see any inconsistency here.


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:00:22 AM EST

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

Well, I'm in favor of single-payer but ardently opposed to individual mandates, for reasons I've explained in several other diaries (primarily, I think the burden associated with mandatory insurance should be distributed progressively; that is to say, payment for the insurance should be financed by traditional income tax collection). So, part of my point in linking to that article was to highlight the fact that proposals involving these hybrid systems are all politically cautious and weak. If you're serious about criticizing our candidates, then complain about their failure to even push for single-payer. Complaints about the absence of mandates strike me as misguided (and probably driven by candidate support more than genuine concern about the public interest)

Now, regarding the excerpts to which you refer. Adverse selection is indeed a large part of the problem, but this issue can be largely addressed without mandates. Indeed, it's worth noting that all the candidates' plans address adverse selection by prohibiting certain kinds of exclusions, etc. Also, Obama's plan includes reimbursement (to private plans) for a portion of catastrophic costs. Because adverse selection is due in part to private insurers/plans effort to spread the costs associate with these catastrophic losses, such reimbursement reduces the likelihood of these losses increasing premiums.

But, ultimately, we are talking about 15 million uninusured people out of a total population of 300 million (assuming Hillary's estimate is correct). The cost reduction associated with including these people is not likely to be all that substantial. There will still be an enormous pool of insured participants, and including 100% of the population (as opposed to 99.5%) is the difference we're talking about here.

I'm arguing that we should instead be talking about how end-of-life care affects the overall costs of health care; how administrative costs increase our premiums; how the employer-based system contributes to our problems; how artificial scarcity is part of the problem; and dozens of other issues that seem to me more important than whether candidate x's plan forces someone to buy insurance.

Sorry if my thoughts seem sloppy right now, but I rushing this before going to bed.


by DPW on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:36:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

I see your points. Thanks for taking the time to spell them out.

Still, does having the government act as a reinsurer mean the government has to shoulder the cost of adverse selection? It would seem so. Somebody has to end up paying the difference between what the premium should be and what it is.

Also, leaving out 15 million people leaves a pool of 95%, not 99.5% Right now we have about 84% insured. I honestly don't know what the change in numbers will mean. It does seem that right now we don't have adverse selection now isn't because of the large pool, but because insurance companies refuse to cover people who are sick. It seems to me things would change a lot if you started requiring them to do so.


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:43:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

You're right about 95%. My math was done too quickly.

Yes, the government would effectively shoulder some of the costs associated the adverse selection. And, that's what I ultimately want. The income tax system ideally represents the appropriate distribution of state-imposed burdens. When the government simply requires that everyone buy private insurance, the distribution of that burden is more difficult to manage such that some aren't unfairly affected. I know that Hillary has tried to minimize this problem with subsidies, however this problem still exists. I want the billionaires paying a lot more than the middle-class.

I wish I could give a longer reply right now. I've noted before that you're one of the most honest and reasonable Clinton supporters on this site. So, it's nice to have an opportunity for genuine discussion of these issues. My primary point is that this problem is quite complicated, and I fear that the focus on mandates has diverted attention from far more important issues.


by DPW on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:56:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

should say "such that some ARE unfairly affected." There are other typos, but I think they are less confusing.


by DPW on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 03:01:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

Ignore this correction. Rereading my sentence, it was correct the first time. I need sleep.


by DPW on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 03:03:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

IMHO - it doesn't really matter if Obama's plan omits 15M of us or 179.
The key is - Obama is waving the white flag and signaling to the Insurance industry that health care for ALL is unimportant.

Obama is siding with the corporatists - and yes - Repubs will use Obama's "Harry and Louise" ad throughout the general - if not before.
Even if he's not the nominee.

Obama is a Repulicrat.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:31:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

Obama is a Republicrat!


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:38:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Universal Health Care (2.00 / 3)

Obama doesn't strike me as a "dig in and get it done" kind of a guy.  I think he'll float the idea out there and see what happens.  But without the passion, universal health care won't happen.  Clinton is risking her name and reputation on taking on this issue.  You can bet that if she becomes president, it will be top priority.  They laughed at her last time for trying, but this time she'll have legitimate power (instead of just being First Lady) and she'll make sure universal health care is pushed through.


by izarradar on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:04:31 AM EST

Re: Universal Health Care (2.00 / 1)

She'll push hard and either succeed and take her place along FDR and LBJ among the pantheon of great Democratic presidents (yes, Teddy, I said LBJ), or crash and burn, and end up a lot like Bill Clinton--an effective president who did a lot of good things.

Barack Obama already seems to be on his way to being Bill Clinton with more personal discipline and less initial daring.


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:12:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Universal Health Care (none / 0)

I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt for now. I agree the Rezko stuff smells a little, and it certainly won't help his GE chances if the trial starts later this month.

But as much as I admired Bill, self-discipline wasn't one of his greatest strengths.


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:45:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Universal Health Care (none / 0)

Do you have links for Obama sex scandals?


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:42:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Universal Health Care (2.00 / 1)

I should also add that the behavior of people like Ted Kennedy and John Kerry is a little discouraging. Even if Hillary does pull out the nomination (hard with all this press cheerleading) and win in November, it seems that congressional Dems are not exactly eager to try it again.

Whatever other qualities the Democratic Congress has, aggressive confidence is not one of them.


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:14:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you're projecting (none / 0)

Obama has a much longer and more successful record at passing legislation than HRC.

Taking good ideas and making them laws is the gold standard of legislating. And at this, Obama beats HRC hands down.


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:35:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you're projecting (2.00 / 1)

I disagree with you on this. But we're not going to convince each other, so I won't spend the time trying.


by OrangeFur on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:37:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you're projecting (none / 0)

Obama-Coburn was passed when the GOP controlled the Senate.

Obama got the bill requiring cops to video tape interrogations passed unanimously.

What big ideas legislation has HRC passed?


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:40:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

shorter Nyberg (2.00 / 1)

"I have no fucking clue who Hillary Clinton is"


ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:06:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you're projecting (none / 0)

I can list things she's failed to pass. I can think of bad ideas she's gotten onboard with.


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 11:25:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you're projecting (none / 0)

I can succinctly explain some of Obama's accomplishments and have.

All HRC supporters seem capable of is attitude and sneering.

We get to see what wins elections tomorrow. Hope and desire for change? Or entitlement, attitude and condescension?


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:47:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No (2.00 / 1)

thank you, susan. dude, your diaries ROCK!
by nance on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:22:23 AM EST

Obama vs. Obama on mandates (2.00 / 1)

Obama - I don't think people should be forced to buy health insurance if they can't afford it. (not sure that is exact, but I think it is a fair paraphrase)

Obama - If people are gaming the system, there are ways we can address that. By, for example, making them pay some of the back premiums for not having gotten it in the first place.

The only way he can square this circle is if we assume that the people "gaming the system" are people who can afford healthcare but still do not purchase a policy. But Obama also claims that his reforms and subsidies will make health insurance affordable for everyone. So anybody who did not get a policy would be a gamer, and subject to punishment. In other words, coverage is mandatory.

So Obama is in the position of campaigning against mandates, while simultaneously proposing mandates. And this does not bother Obama supporters? Not even a little bit?


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 03:35:30 AM EST

Re: [UPDATED] Krugman: If Clinton Is President, (none / 0)

Dear Susan:

HRC just guaransheed your paycheck from the HRC campaign for your failure to pay for your individual health care policy.   Opps, your paycheck from the HRC camapign just bounced because the HRC campaign ran out of money of Feb 4, 2008.


by riverred on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:44:52 AM EST

Re: [UPDATED] Krugman: If Clinton Is President, (2.00 / 1)

Looks like Obama is the one going to be out of money. He just blew a wad on the most expensive time slot. I guess he thinks it's his last hurrah.

Thanks for reinforcing the belief that Obama won't do anything because it might upset the GOP.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 07:50:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

when reason fails (2.00 / 1)

accuse the diarist of working for Clinton.
Pathetic

ABO... Anybody but Obama. I LIKE the democratic party.

by MollieBradford on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:07:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Best comment I've seen.... (none / 0)

Simply as advertising criticism, the atmospherics are all wrong. Whitebread, organic-eating, gym-going couple, recessed and pendant lighting, high ceilings, stainless range hood, huuuuge kitchen? These people can afford health care.

...from the Krugman blog.


by MediaFreeze on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 11:22:03 AM EST

Here's a copy of a letter... (none / 0)

signed by 90 health policy experts debunking the semantic BS claim made by Clinton/Krugman.

The leading Democratic and Republican candidates for president have proposed major changes to our health care system. These proposals are worthy of serious consideration. Rising medical costs threaten our country's long-term fiscal stability. And our failure to provide health insurance to 47 million Americans is cause for shame.

As this year's competitive primary election season builds to a climax, arguments within each party are bound to become heated. As candidates seek a competitive edge, it is natural to magnify small differences. But if the political debate over health reform is to inform Americans about the choices we face, it should be grounded on facts.

The remarkably similar health plans proposed by Senators Clinton and Obama have the potential to reduce the number of uninsured Americans (citizens, permanent residents, and others lawfully present in the U.S.) to two percent or less of the population. Achieving this goal would require full implementation of these plans' subsidies and insurance market reforms, plus robust outreach efforts to get everyone to sign up for coverage.

The necessary outreach will not be easy, and it will be fruitless unless health insurance is made affordable and accessible to all. Some believe that an individual mandate to buy health insurance should be part of this effort; others hold that a mandate would be paternalistic or too onerous for families at the margins of affordability. Regardless of our feelings on this issue, what is clear from the evidence is that mandates alone, without strong incentives to comply and harsh punishments for violation, will have little impact on the number of uninsured Americans.1 Indeed, as the Massachusetts experience illustrates, non-compliance with mandates is a large problem, absent harsh sanctions. There is simply no factual basis for the assertion that an individual mandate, by itself, would result in coverage for 15 million more Americans than would robust efforts to make health care more affordable and accessible.

The inaccurate claim that an individual mandate alone would reduce the ranks of the uninsured by 15 million draws attention away from the challenges we must surmount to make good medical care available to all. These challenges include adequate public subsidies, insurance market reform, outreach to people at the margins of American life, and long-term control of medical costs. Individual mandates may have a role in health care reform, but there is risk of a specious "Mission Accomplished" moment. It is a time for rolling up our sleeves and addressing the hard work required to get everyone care. The central challenge is to make health insurance affordable and accessible, and to reach out to all Americans to help them obtain coverage. Voters should insist that candidates for president address these very real issues.

1 S.A. Glied, J. Hartz, and G. Giorgi, "Consider It Done? The Likely Efficacy Of Mandates For Health Insurance," Health Affairs 26 (2007): 1612-1621.

Signers:

Stuart Altman
Dean and Sol C. Chaikin Professor of National Health Policy
Heller School for Social Policy and Management
Brandeis University

M. Gregg Bloche, MD, JD
Professor of Law
Georgetown University
Non-Resident Senior Fellow
The Brookings Institution
Adjunct Professor
Bloomberg School of Public Health
Johns Hopkins University

Nicholas A. Christakis, MD, PhD, MPH
Professor
Department of Health Care Policy
Harvard Medical School
Department of Sociology
Faculty of Arts and Sciences
Harvard University

David Matchar, MD
Professor of Medicine
Director, Center for Clinical Health Policy Research
Duke University Medical Center

E. Richard Brown, PhD
Professor of Health Policy
UCLA School of Public Health

Henry J. Aaron
Senior Fellow, Economic Studies
The Bruce and Virginia MacLaury Chair
The Brookings Institution
Paul Weiler
Emeritus Professor of Law
Harvard Law School

Elliott S. Fisher, MD, MPH
Professor of Medicine and Community and Family Medicine
Director, Center for Health Policy Research
Dartmouth Institute for Health Policy and Clinical Practice.

Harold Pollack, MPP, PhD
Faculty Chair, Center for Health Administration Studies
Associate Professor
School of Social Service Administration
University of Chicago

Lainie Friedman Ross, MD, PhD
Carolyn and Matthew Bucksbaum Professor of Clinical Ethics
Professor, Departments of Pediatrics, Medicine, and Surgery
Associate Director, MacLean Center for Clinical Medical Ethics
University of Chicago

David Blumenthal, MD, MPP
Director, Institute for Health Policy
Physician, Massachusetts General Hospital
Samuel O. Thier Professor of Medicine
Harvard Medical School
Professor of Health Care Policy
Harvard Medical School

Theodore Marmor, PhD
Professor Emeritus of Public Policy and Management
Professor Emeritus of Political Science
Yale School of Management

Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH
University Distinguished Professor
Johns Hopkins University

Paula Lantz, PhD
Professor and Chair
Department of Health Management and Policy
University of Michigan

Mark Schlesinger, PhD
Professor of Health Policy
Yale University

Nancy L. Keating, MD, MPH
Associate Professor of Medicine and Health Care Policy
Harvard Medical School

Gerald F. Kominski, PhD
Associate Dean for Academic Programs
Professor, Department of Health Services
UCLA School of Public Health

Diane S. Lauderdale
Associate Professor
Department of Health Studies
University of Chicago

David Cutler
Otto Eckstein Professor of Applied Economics
Harvard University

Einer Elhauge
Petrie Professor of Law
Director, Petrie-Flom Center in Health Law Policy
Harvard Law School

Kathleen A Cagney
Associate Professor
Department of Health Studies
University of Chicago

Ronald S. Sullivan Jr.
Clinical Professor of Law
Director, Harvard Criminal Justice Institute
Harvard Law School

Henry J. Steiner
Jeremiah Smith, Jr. Professor Emeritus
Harvard Law School

Martha Minow
Jeremiah Smith, Jr. Professor
Harvard Law School

Jerry Mashaw, PhD
Sterling Professor of Law and Management
Yale University

Laurie Zoloth, PhD
Director, Center for Bioethics, Science and Society
Director, Brady Program in Ethics and Leadership
Professor of Medical Humanities and Bioethics
Feinberg School of Medicine
Northwestern University

Dayna Bowen Matthew
Associate Dean of Academic Affairs
Professor of Law
University of Colorado School of Law

Elizabeth Bartholet
Morris Wasserstein Professor of Law
Faculty Director, Child Advocacy Program
Harvard Law School

Ellen Meara, PhD
Department of Health Care Policy
Harvard Medical School

Donald E. Fry, MD, FACS
Professor Emeritus
Department of Surgery
University of New Mexico School of Medicine

Mark E. Courtney
Ballmer Endowed Chair for Child Well-Being
School of Social Work
University of Washington

Jacqueline Fox
Assistant Professor
School of Law
University of South Carolina

Oliver Oldman
Learned Hand Professor of Law, Emeritus
Harvard Law School

Jane Loewenson
Partner
Nueva Vista Group LLC

Laurence H. Tribe
Carl M. Loeb University Professor
Harvard Law School

Thaddeus Mason Pope, JD, PhD
Visiting Professor, Widener University School of Law
Senior Scholar, Thomas Jefferson University Medical College
Assistant Professor of Law
University of Memphis School of Law

Mervin Shalowitz, MD Visiting Scholar
Kellogg School of Management
Northwestern University

Barbara A. Noah
Associate Professor
Western New England College School of Law

William Pitsenberger
Adjunct Professor, Health Law and Policy
Washburn University School of Law

Philip J. Rosenthal
Professor
Department of Medicine
University of California, San Francisco

Sarah-Anne Schumann, MD
Clinical Associate
Department of Family Medicine
University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine
Chicago Family Health Center

Daniel H. Lowenstein, MD
Professor of Neurology
Director, Physician-Scientist Education and Training Programs
University of California, San Francisco

Jonathan Skinner, PhD
Professor
Dartmouth College & Medical School

Robin Henry Dretler MD, FIDSA
President
Infectious Disease Specialists of Atlanta

Laurel Coleman, MD, CMD, FACP
Physician
Augusta, Maine

Ann M Labriola, MD
Associate Professor of Medicine
Division of Infectious Diseases
Department of Medicine
George Washington University Medical Center

Jens Ludwig
Professor of Social Service Administration, Law, and Public Policy
University of Chicago

Norman Daniels
Professor of Ethics and Population Health
Harvard School of Public Health

Donald H. Taylor, Jr. Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Public Policy
Duke University

Colleen Grogan
Faculty Director, Graduate Program on Health Administration and Policy
Associate Professor
School of Social Service Administration
University of Chicago

Leon Wyszewianski, PhD
Associate Professor
Director, Executive Master's Program
Department of Health Management and Policy
University of Michigan School of Public Health

John Henning Schumann, MD
Section of General Internal Medicine
MacLean Center for Clinical Medical Ethics
Human Rights Program
University of Chicago

Michael Pine
Lecturer in Medicine
University of Chicago

Wade S. Smith, MD, PhD
Professor of Neurology
University of California, San Francisco

Keith W.L. Rafal, MD, MPH
Assistant Clinical Professor
Brown University Medical School

Bob Arnold
Professor of Medicine
Leo H Criep Chair in Patient Care
Chief, Section of Palliative care and Medical Ethics
University of Pittsburgh

James Tulsky, MD
Professor of Medicine and Nursing
Duke University

William M. Altman, JD, MA
Senior Vice President of Strategy and Public Policy
Kindred Healthcare, Inc.

Rebekah E. Gee, MD, MPH
Robert Wood Johnson Clinical Scholar
University of Pennsylvania

Clarissa K. Wittenberg
Health Education Consultant

Jason Block, MD
Physician
Brigham and Women's Hospital

Harlan M. Krumholz, MD SM
Harold H. Hines, Jr. Professor of Medicine
Yale University

S. Claiborne Johnston, MD, PhD
Professor of Neurology and Epidemiology
Director, Stroke Service
University of California, San Francisco

Richard Kronick
Professor
Department of Family and Preventive Medicine
University of California, San Diego

Maggie Czarnogorski, MD
George Washington University
Carl Vogel Center, Medical Director

Howard P. Forman MD, MBA
Professor of Diagnostic Radiology, Management, and Public Health
Lecturer, Economics
Director, Yale MD/MBA Program and Yale MBA for Executives: Leadership In Healthcare
Yale University

William Terry, MD
Brigham and Women's Hospital

Rahul Rajkumar, MD, JD
Physician
Brigham and Women's Hospital

Frederick A Masoudi, MD, MSPH
Associate Professor of Medicine (Cardiology)
Denver Health Medical Center
University

David A. Richardson
Health Care Consultant

Helen Levy, PhD
Research Assistant Professor
University of Michigan

Robert Burt, JD, MA
Professor
Yale Law School

David B. Wilkins
Kirkland & Ellis Professor of Law
Director Program on the Legal Profession
Harvard Law School

Gene Webb, PhD
Manager of Planning
Biological Sciences Division
Pritzker School of Medicine
University of Chicago

Nikhil Wagle, MD
Physician
Brigham and Women's Hospital

Clifford E. Douglas, JD
Executive Director, University of Michigan Tobacco Research Network
Adjunct Lecturer, University of Michigan School of Public Health
Senior Policy Fellow, Michigan Public Health Institute

Thomas G. McGuire
Professor of Health Economics
Department of Health Care Policy
Harvard Medical School

Robert A. Berenson, MD
Senior Fellow
The Urban Institute

Stanley S. Wallack
Professor
Heller School for Social Policy and Management
Brandeis University

Charles J. Ogletree, Jr.
Jesse Climenko Professor of Law,
Harvard Law School

Jon Klein, MD, PhD
James Graham Brown Foundation Endowed Chair in Proteomics
University of Louisville

Sara Rosenbaum
Chair, Department of Health Policy
Harold and Jane Hirsh Professor of Health Law and Policy
Professor of Health Care Sciences
George Washington University

John C. Coates IV
John F. Cogan, Jr. Professor of Law and Economics
Harvard Law School

Peter J. Hammer
Professor of Law
Wayne State University Law School

Meredith B. Rosenthal, PhD
Associate Professor of Health Economics and Policy
Department of Health Policy and Management
Harvard School of Public Health

Barron H. Lerner, MD, PhD
Professor of Medicine and Public Health
Columbia University

Lucian L. Leape, MD Harvard School of Public Health

Kasturi Haldar
Charles E. and Emma H. Morrison Professor
Department of Pathology
Northwestern University    

Krugman cherry picks his experts. I don't.


by Mystylplx on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 12:20:21 PM EST

Re: Here's a copy of a letter... (none / 0)

But you cherry pick your facts. That letter clearly states:

The inaccurate claim that an individual mandate alone would reduce the ranks of the uninsured by 15 million draws attention away from the challenges we must surmount to make good medical care available to all. These challenges include adequate public subsidies, insurance market reform, outreach to people at the margins of American life, and long-term control of medical costs.

There's nothing in that letter that says mandates can't help or shouldn't be a part providing universal health coverage, all it says is that they cannot be relied on "alone".

It's completely false to say that Clinton's plan relies on mandates "alone" to reduce the uninsured. Her plan uses a variety of mechanisms to reduce costs, improve care, expand access and coverage options, provide susbsidies and force employers to contribute. The mandate is just one piece of the puzzle.

There's nothing in that letter that conflicts with Clinton's plan. All of these things help reduce the ranks of the uninsured.


by LakersFan on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 04:29:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The conflict is... (none / 0)

...Clinton/Krugman's argument that without mandates it isn't really Universal Health Care. Obama's plan also has a variety of mechanisms to reduce costs, improve care, expand access and coverage options, provide susbsidies and force employers to contribute.

And I'll say again, mandates without effective enforcement mechanisms are no mandates at all. I understand that she's floating different ideas for enforcement mechanisms, but until she's got something then she's got nothing.

Obama has said we can add mandates in later. Clinton seems to be saying we can add the enforcement mechanism in later. In the real world that means that neither plan has mandates yet, both may at some point, and only Obama is being honest about it.


by Mystylplx on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 04:36:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The conflict is... (none / 0)

No. The argument isn't that without mandates it's not universal, it's that without attempting to cover everyone (no matter what mechanism you use to do that) it's not universal. Obama specifically says that it's okay for people to not participate. That is completely in conflict with the concept of "universal coverage".

Clinton has discussed various enforcement mechanisms, but it's rather premature to talk about enforcement before you offer a method of compliance.

The fundamental difference is: Clinton's plan uses mandates to achieve universal coverage, Obama's plan doesn't even attempt to be universal.


by LakersFan on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:13:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The conflict is... (none / 0)

Both plans attempt to cover everyone. Obama's plan uses incentives, Clintons plan uses mandates.

The fundamental difference is: Clinton's plan uses mandates to achieve universal coverage, Obama's plan doesn't even attempt to be universal.

You are living in a dream world if you believe that Clintons 'mandates' will cover everyone. In fact, you are living in a dream world if you believe any mandates, even effective ones, will cover everyone. That's fantasyland type of thinking. The only way to insure that everyone is covered is single payer. Period.

The benifit of effective mandates is not that they will cover everyone (not in this universe) but that they will cover more people. Both Hillary and Obama are saying we can ad the mandates in later. The difference is that Obama is honest about it while Hillary pretends to have effective mandates now.


by Mystylplx on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 06:23:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The conflict is... (none / 0)

And you're kidding yourself if you think a plan that specifically allows people to opt-out is "universal". You know that's not universal, but you can't handle any facts that support another candidate's policy.

And now you try to confuse the by saying the only plan that will work is single-payer (which is nothing like what Obama is proposing). You're not being honest, so I'm done discussing this with you.


by LakersFan on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 06:37:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman: If Obama Is President, There's No Cha (none / 0)

Ezra Klein - >>>> Gaming the system, in this context, means not purchasing health care. And Obama is now threatening to force them to pay back premiums. That's a harsher penalty than anything Clinton has proposed.

Exactly!  
but don't look for this FACT on left blogs endorsing Obama.

Democrats now have their own version of Bushie sheep - ObamaBots.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:13:40 PM EST

If Clinton is the nominee (2.00 / 1)

the issue of Iraq is off the table because Hillary has flip-flopped on the most important vote of her life and she does not want people to know how she completely fucked it up! And I believe she will pull a Bill Clinton, a la gays in the military -- and completely change her mind when she's in office.

Hillary simply stuck her finger in the wind, found out people were turning against the war, and decided if she wanted the nomination, well, she was against it, too.

The Clintons must be stopped.

YES WE CAN!!


by DoubleDs on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:23:26 PM EST

Re: If Clinton is the nominee (none / 0)

Obama has flip flopped back and forth on the war.
He opposed it when he couldn't vote - then supported it when he could vote.
Then - opposed it AFTER he became a prez candidate.

Obama is a con.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:37:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Clinton is the nominee (none / 0)

a con? that's funny because those are the exact same votes that Hillary made except for one thing. she helped get us into the war to begin with.

i guess you are saying that Hillary was FOR the war to begin with. So that makes her a LIER now.


by JoeCoaster on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 02:18:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Clinton is the nominee (none / 0)

Obama has based his campaign on his "opposition" to the war.
His voting record proves he's a LIAR.

Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 04:07:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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