Obama's Krugman Problem

Please Support the MyDD Fundraiser Today

The 2000-2003 period was a dark time for the left. There were few in the media whom we could point to as a voice of truth in a period of increasing media fealty to Bush. New York Times columnist Paul Krugman was one of the few brave voices of truth and eerie prescience on issue after issue of concern to progressives. As Jerome put it in early December:

If there's one person that I would point to in the establishment press that was there during the wilderness, the period of '01-'03, before Dean arrived on the scene, it was Paul Krugman. The guy should be awarded some sort of Presidential award by the next President for his truth telling while nearly all the rest of the establishment press could only be found on their knees in front of BushCo during the beginning of this decade.

Which is why I take Krugman's concerns about several of Barack Obama positions to heart. For one thing, he's been overtly critical of Obama on his treatment of Social Security:

Lately, Barack Obama has been saying that major action is needed to avert what he keeps calling a "crisis" in Social Security -- most recently in an interview with The National Journal. Progressives who fought hard and successfully against the Bush administration's attempt to panic America into privatizing the New Deal's crown jewel are outraged, and rightly so.

And he's identified Obama's stimulus package as the least progressive of the Democrats' plans:

The Obama campaign's initial response to the latest wave of bad economic news was, I'm sorry to say, disreputable: Mr. Obama's top economic adviser claimed that the long-term tax-cut plan the candidate announced months ago is just what we need to keep the slump from "morphing into a drastic decline in consumer spending." Hmm: claiming that the candidate is all-seeing, and that a tax cut originally proposed for other reasons is also a recession-fighting measure -- doesn't that sound familiar?

Anyway, on Sunday Mr. Obama came out with a real stimulus plan...[H]is stimulus proposal is similar to those of the other Democratic candidates, but tilted to the right.

But most concerning of all are the red flags Krugman has raised vis a vis Obama's health care proposal, which, as has been made quite clear by now by both Clinton and Obama alike, does not include an individual mandate and thus can not be technically considered universal. As a counter to this, Obama claims health care would be affordable under his plan and, hence, the uninsured would buy in.

This is where Krugman bristles.

Why have a mandate? The whole point of a universal health insurance system is that everyone pays in, even if they're currently healthy, and in return everyone has insurance coverage if and when they need it.

And it's not just a matter of principle. As a practical matter, letting people opt out if they don't feel like buying insurance would make insurance substantially more expensive for everyone else.

If you'd like specifics as to the difference a mandate makes, take a look at this chart Krugman posts on his blog citing a study by leading health care economist Jonathan Gruber, which outlines the vast difference in both coverage and cost of a mandate plan vs. a non-mandate plan. Upshot: non-mandate plans cover only about half the uninsured and, subsequently, the cost per newly insured is $4400 vs. $2700 under a mandate plan. No wonder Senator Clinton has taken to touting it as her prime point of distinction with Senator Obama.

But no matter how many statistics Krugman points to, nothing cuts to Krugman's deep-rooted distrust if Obama more than this indictment of Obama's non-mandate strategy:

From the beginning, advocates of universal health care were troubled by the incompleteness of Barack Obama's plan, which unlike those of his Democratic rivals wouldn't cover everyone. But they were willing to cut Mr. Obama slack on the issue, assuming that in the end he would do the right thing.

Now, however, Mr. Obama is claiming that his plan's weakness is actually a strength. What's more, he's doing the same thing in the health care debate he did when claiming that Social Security faces a "crisis" -- attacking his rivals by echoing right-wing talking points.

Krugman wrote that on November 30, 2007. Remember what I said about Krugman's prescience? Cut to Krugman's February 1st post on his blog titled "Obama Does Harry and Louise Again" in which he draws our attention to a particularly problematic mailer from the Obama campaign that uses a not so subtle anti-government message to criticize Clinton's plan:

The way Hillary Clinton's health care plan covers everyone is to have the government force uninsured people to buy insurance, even if they can't afford it.

Ohhh, big government baaaad. But that's not the worst of it. Krugman updates his post:

Ezra Klein adds a screenshot of the original Harry and Louise ad -- they've obviously deliberately copied it. Just to remind everyone, Harry and Louise were the center of the vile smear campaign the insurance lobby waged against health care reform in 1993 -- and this time a Democratic candidate is doing the smearing for them. [...]

I know that Obama supporters want to hear no evil, but this is really, really bad.

So one has to wonder, when trying to differentiate himself from his rivals on various domestic issues, why does Obama go consistently to the right? Krugman nails it.

Mr. Obama wanted a way to distinguish himself from Hillary Clinton -- and for Mr. Obama, who has said that the reason "we can't tackle the big problems that demand solutions" is that "politics has become so bitter and partisan," joining in the attack on Senator Clinton's Social Security position must have seemed like a golden opportunity to sound forceful yet bipartisan.

But...on Social Security, as on many other issues, what Washington means by bipartisanship is mainly that everyone should come together to give conservatives what they want.

We all wish that American politics weren't so bitter and partisan. But if you try to find common ground where none exists -- which is the case for many issues today -- you end up being played for a fool. And that's what has just happened to Mr. Obama.

And indeed, it's hard not to conclude that so too has the progressive blogosphere been taken in, as they have to a large degree annointed the less progressive and the less overtly partisan candidate as their own, thus giving up two fights that once were central to the movement's raison d'etre. What's been quite amusing in the wake of the embrace of Obama by the wine-track progressives is to watch them bend over backwards to justify things Obama says or does, from his was-it-or-wasn't-it praise of Ronald Reagan to his less than progressive policy positions on several issues. At least Yglesias is starting to tire of it, but Kevin Drum, who has remained thankfully Obamania-immune to date, explains progressives' complex relationship with Obama.

Obama has clearly chosen his course, and there's really no way for him to give a wink and a nudge to folks like Matt and me to let us know that he's just kidding about all this kumbaya stuff. After all, it's part of his whole appeal to both independents and moderate conservatives, and his candidacy depends on that. So if you're a liberal in Obama's camp, you just have to cross your fingers and trust him.

Because in the end, this is what it all comes down to. Is Obama kidding or not? Does he really believe that he can enact a progressive agenda by reaching out to Republicans and bridging the red-blue divide, or is he just saying this as a way of shaping public opinion and winning an election? And if he does believe it, is he right?

Which, ironically, proves one of Hillary Clinton's criticisms of Obama true: that he represents a leap of faith. It also points to why Obama has a Krugman problem in the first place: that while Obama is an unknown, Krugman has a proven track record of sound progressive judgment and when Krugman speaks, progressives listen. At least they used to.



Display:


Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 4)

Bravo.

I've been waiting for SOMEONE to say this.


by apolitik on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 05:04:28 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

At least they used to.

That is the most critical sentence in this diary. For the most part, Krugman has put his money on the Hillary nomination, perhaps too early, and the word is that he hopes to take the Hillary road into Washington politics.

But that is besides the point. When on Democratic candidate, Hillary, is actually willing to demean another Democratic candidate, Obama, for having supported a "single payer" universal health care system, we know that the Democratic party has indeed moved a long way to the right toward Clintonism and Republican Lite. That's Hillary's plan, a corporate run universal health care system in which the medical insurance companies, and the others in on the take, take away 20% of the medical care dollars for CEO salaries, dividends, and other benefits, screwing the American public in what will continue to be a squeeze of avoiding coverage and denying benefits.

The Hillary corporate run medical care system is just the opposite of single payers systems like Medicare and Medicaid, and all of the medical systems that serve the social democracies of Europe and the English speaking western countries. Hillary's medical system is Republican Lite corporatism at its worst and it is shameful that Krugman could endorse it.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 10:28:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

She didn't demean him (2.00 / 4)

She pointed out he was a hypocrite when he said he supported it and then he backtracked and look at his health care proposal.


by debcoop on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 11:20:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She didn't demean him (2.00 / 1)

Just like he campaigns on universal healthcare but is not proposing universal healthcare.


by Canaan on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 11:29:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary and Obama's plan both use private insurers (2.00 / 3)

The person to the right of now is Barack Obama.

This damning of Hillary is a perfect example of
Obama blindness.  He does the same thing and you damn her.


by debcoop on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 11:22:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary and Obama's plan both use private ... (none / 0)

Either blindness, or adhering to talking points.  I find that it's sometimes hard to tell on blogs.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 07:36:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oy, Shergald (2.00 / 5)

Shergald,
For the most part, Krugman has put his money on the Hillary nomination, perhaps too early, and the word is that he hopes to take the Hillary road into Washington politics.
I'm reading this as an ad homenim attack that suggests a corrupt motive behind Krugman's preference for some of Hillary Clinton's policy proposals. If you want me to take you at all seriously, you're going to have to source this claim (and, given who you're attacking, it had better be a good one).

Otherwise, party on, Shergald. Agree completely about how compromised both candidates are from a progressive point of view. My goals for this election are rather modest, however. I will be satisfied if we can just staunch the bleeding this time. Either Clinton or Obama, for all their blemishes, will be light-years better than Bush and Cheney. That saying it is more of an indictment of the current administration than otherwise is sad, but it doesn't make it less true.


by 1arryb on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 11:33:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Krugman's Obama Problem (none / 0)

Shergald, you are so right,

Obama doesn't have a Krugman problem.

Krugman has an Obama problem. The question is what happens when/if Obama wins.


by commoncents on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 11:41:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman's Obama Problem (2.00 / 3)

Don't worry about that too much.


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 11:48:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Krugman's Obama Problem (none / 0)

I worry about this quite a bit. Obama is far too acquiescent for my taste and this bi-partisan schtick is a gimmick for votes, not good governance. We need serious change and I don't believe BHO really wants to deliver it.


by bird52 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 05:50:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 2)

Shergald,

This is the point of Todd's piece -- you see in Obama exactly what you want to see, not how he is.

I admire the positions you put forward and would love to see them talked about.  Obama is not talking about these things.

It honestly makes me kind of sad to think about all of these progressives hoping for a progressive victory or for single payer health care, when in fact Obama will not give these things to you.

You are taking this on a leap of faith, not even a 'wink and a nudge.'  Obama is running a centrist campaign, his supporters and frequently right out of the center of the party, and even if he wins he will have no progressive mandate.

You cannot run on a mild health care expansion and then all of a sudden switch to single payer.  He would be crucified.


by rcipw on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:39:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Hillary demeaned Obama?  His version of "Harry and Louise" demeaned Hillary and played right into GOP hands if he wins.  Foolish.


by Gloria on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:49:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wasn't Harry & Louise (none / 0)

really an anti-HMO ad? Didn't the things in that ad come true with HMO's?

From what I've been reading it was actually correct as Clinton's plan was just an HMO before there were HMO's.

Or is there more to the ad than that?

As far as Obama's ad criticizing mandates, a kitchen-table topic, I suppose he could have had them out by the pool or something or done it with penguins. That would have been better I guess.


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 02:15:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 1)

Please buzz off with your talking points.  I have no patience with spin.  

The diarist and Krugman illustrate point-by-point what is wrong with Obama's plan, and your response is to attack them.  That has been the MoO of Obama supporters on dkos.  Attack the messenger.  

No.  Hillary is the one that respects other Candidates, and doesn't talk ill of them.  Again, Obama campaign not only twists her words and does race-baiting, but also accuses her of the same.  So, a) they smear her and her husband, b) they poison the well so that if/when Hillary responds, it's a he-said-she-said story.  

I am really sick of this.  Why doesn't the fact the Obama intentionally borrowed Harry and Louise ad message bother his supporters? Why D-Punjab doesn't bother his supporters?  Why calling Hillary a does-anything-to-get-elected doesn't bother his supporters?  

Stop spinning and lying.  

As I said yesterday at dkos, when Hillary has an advisor affiliated with DLC, it means she is a triagulating sellout.  Obama doing the same thing means he is a unifying visionary.  

Stop!  You are boring us to death.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 07:32:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 4)

I'll still never understand how Obama has been getting such a free pass from...well, EVERYONE.

Don't try to criticize him or you too shall be ostracized!!!


by werd2406 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 05:18:41 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 1)

Obama LIED to Iowans ---

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/us/pol itics/03exelon.html?_r=1&hp&oref =slogin


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 09:24:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 5)

Paul Krugman is one of the MSM journalists who takes a good, long hard look at Obama and exposes him as all hat and no cattle. Im glad the NY Times stopped charging for their Op-Ed page so everyone can read his column.


by Safe at Home on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 05:37:45 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Glad you like him so much, what do you make of this?:


"We hope we're about to elect FDR," New York Times op-ed columnist Paul Krugman told me earlier this week, "but we might be about to elect Grover Cleveland." He said he was referring to the front-runner, Hillary Clinton.

Grover Cleveland, for those who don't know their 19th century presidents, was the only Democrat who made it to the White House between 1860 and 1912, the decades when Republican big money ruled the country. Cleveland, elected in 1885 and again in 1893, mobilized the army to crush the 1894 Pullman strike of railroad workers, and joined Wall Street in supporting the gold standard. "He was what they called a `Bourbon Democrat,' as in the French royal family," Krugman explained. "He wasn't that different from the Republicans at the time."

Krugman said it appears that the key issue in the 2008 election will be health care, and that the Democrats have a health care plan that will work. His "biggest concern," he said, was "whether the next occupant of the White House will triangulate it into oblivion." He reiterated that he was talking about Hillary.

Jon Weiner - Is Hillary the Next Grover Cleveland? The Nation 31 Oct 07

It cuts both ways and his criticisms are not only prescient but witty.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 06:03:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's a relative question (2.00 / 3)

With many progressives, including you as well as Krugman, apparently, I have much trepidation about a Clinton presidency.  It is one reasons I supported another candidate until he "suspended" his campaign.  So I am absolutely not one to defend Clinton on every score like many of her defenders on this site.  For instance, I am not driven to paroxysms of rage at Krugman's characterization of a possible Clinton presidency.

But your problem in using this excerpt from an article in which he is cited is that you implicitly legitimize Krugman as an authority in assessments about the relative progressivity of political positions and candidates.

Once that point is conceded you are shaky ground, it seems to me, because Krugman's criticism of Clinton in that passage and elsewhere is much less forceful, much less detailed and, ultimately, far less damning than his indictment of Obama.

Clinton is no great shakes, but Obama is much worse on stated positions and represents much more a "leap of faith"  leader.  On the Krugman Progressivity Scale your preferred candidate appears to score much lower than Clinton.

So which is it?  Is Krugman an untrustworthy anti-Obama shill or is he a reasoned pundit whose voice and criticisms we should carefully consider?


"We live entangled in webs of endless deceit, often self-deceit, but with a little honest effort, it is possible to extricate ourselves from them". -- NC
by Trond Jacobsen on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 08:53:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a relative question (2.00 / 2)

I have read and admired Krugman for years, especially through the dark days when the liberal establishment closed ranks behind the Bush administrations ill-considered and haughty march to war.  I understand his criticisms of Obama, whom I loyally support, and even agree with his assessments, more or less, on policy specifics from a strictly 'progressive' ideological perspective.  Krugman is a theorist, commentator and conceptual leader, and a find one at that, but he is not a politician.  He is doing what he should and must and the same applies to Obama.  I am supporting Obama's candidacy for the presidency, however, not Krugman's.

Though in all fairness, when reading his columns recently I feel akin to a Christian Scientist with appendicitis.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 10:12:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Best comment of this election cycle... (none / 0)

Though in all fairness, when reading his columns recently I feel akin to a Christian Scientist with appendicitis.


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 11:07:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This was before shei ssued her health care plan (2.00 / 3)

That was what changed his mind about her.  He was very happy and surprised that it was better tna Obama's.  And then obama used his lesser heath care plan to attack her better plan using right wing frames. this was what turned him against obama.  even so I think he has been rhetorically restrained and careful in his criticisms.

Until last Wednesday Krugman would probably have voted for Edwards.  Krugman gave Obama the benefit of the doubt for  along time...it
was Obama's policies and his campaigning on right wing frames that eventually pushed him away after he made this point in October.


by debcoop on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 11:28:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This was before shei ssued her health care pla (none / 0)

Not correct, technically, at least as far as this was before she issued her health care plan is concerned:


DES MOINES, Iowa (CNN) -- Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Hillary Clinton announced a $110 billion health care reform plan Monday that would require all Americans to have health insurance.

"Here in America people are dying" because they lack health insurance, Sen. Hillary Clinton said Monday.

Clinton unveiled her "American Health Choices Plan," during a high-profile speech at a hospital in the key campaign state of Iowa, surrounded by supporters, American flags and campaign banners.

Paul Steinhauser and Candy Crowley - Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan CNN 18 Sep 07

The chronology of Krugman's remarks apparently places them at least a month later:


"We hope we're about to elect FDR," New York Times op-ed columnist Paul Krugman told me earlier this week, "but we might be about to elect Grover Cleveland." He said he was referring to the front-runner, Hillary Clinton.

Jon Weiner - NYT's Krugman: Hillary -- the Next Grover Cleveland? Huffington Post 31 Oct 07

A minor point, to be sure, but contrary to your central assertion.  You may be on to something regarding the ensuing exchanges on 'mandatory' coverage but things are rarely as simple as we might like them to appear in hindsight.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 04:15:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 1)

Yes, but:

Krugman pointed to one big difference between the Clintons' triangulation over health care in 1993 and the situation today, when "we have a self-conscious, aggressive progressive movement in a way we did not when Bill Clinton came into office. I think that does at least somewhat change the calculus," he said. If Hillary does concede too much to the other side, "there is an organized group that will make it clear that this is not what you're supposed to do."
Clinton is in fact totally aware of this. In fact, during the netroots conference, she made that exact point, saying, in effect, 'I wish the netroots were around when we tried to do healthcare the first time.'


by Jerome Armstrong on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 11:52:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

So the netroots is there to keep Hillary from conceding too much to the other side while she blazes a progressive trail through Congress and the health care industry?  Best of luck to us all.  Sounds like Krugman's guessing we are going to have a lot of work to do.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 04:20:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 4)

Krugman never lets up, either.  He reads all the fine print and will be watching Obama every step of the way.


by Upstate Dem on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 05:40:02 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 5)

I have been amazed at how the left-leaning blogs, or most of them, have bought into Obama.  Usually, they are so on top of anything that smacks of being hypocritical toward liberal causes but in this case, you can read Kos or Andrew Sullivan and find the same pie-in-the-sky nonsense about Obama's so-called progressivism. It confounds me. Wish someone could explain it.


vdeputy
by vdeputy on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 05:51:07 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 2)

IMHO - The "pie-in-the-sky nonsense" from left-leaning blogs is based on profits and more site traffic - spurred by the Corporate Owned Media promoting Obama as a rockstar.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 08:48:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Andrew Sullivan isn't left-leaning or a progressive. I couldn't care less what he thinks.


"It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for subtlety". Salvor Hardin
by Denny Crane on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:59:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

I know that Andrew Sullivan is a conservative. My point was that Kos, who is a lefty, and he echo the same points - which seem like hero worship unattached to reality to me.


vdeputy
by vdeputy on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 04:08:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

I'd agree with that completely.


"It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for subtlety". Salvor Hardin
by Denny Crane on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 07:15:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Or (none / 0)

Maybe they remember how the first administration screwed minorities, gays, and immigrants and don't trust the 2.0 version.


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 02:09:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 6)

The Democratic Party spent a year debunking the Republican claim that Social Security was in a crisis state. It was one of the few success stories of the party during the Bush administration. Now, Obama for personal political gains has opened the door wide open for future Republican attacks on the system by agreeing that there is CRISIS with the Social Security system.

Likewise, Obama's "Harry and Louise" flier jeopardizes the chance that any Democratic President will be able to pass Universal Health Care. It will be used by the Republicans as proof positive that any form of Health care reform is a bad idea.

To me, Social Security and Universal Health care are core values of the Democratic party and I don't appreciate the fact that they are being put on the table for political gains.

I came into the last month before my primary, thinking I would vote for Edwards because I found as many negatives with Obama as I did with Clinton. After his withdrawal, it was now what will I do. Well, Senator Obama has made my choice easier. The "Harry and Louise" flier was the last straw. I will be voting for Senator Clinton. At least she is running as a Democratic candidate and is not going out of her way to aid and abet the Republicans in undermining Democratic core programs.


by MOBlue on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 05:52:53 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

How could talking about mandates being bad give ammo to fight against a single-payer system or a system without mandates?


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 02:10:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

John Edwards had the exact same position on Social Security as Obama..why has krugman never said word one about that?

Because Krugman has a double standard that he is holding Obama to..that is clear.

When was the last time he wrote a column on HRC's weak Iraq war narrative?

Is he buying that laughable defense of her Iraq war vote from the last debate?
Is the Iraq war not an issue anymore for Krugman?
Obama is not perfect and krugman is clearly a smart man but I smell bias for HRC ..not surprising considering he worked for Bill Clinton in the 90's.

So, he is loyal to HRC,and we should take all of his obama observations with that in mind.
He is not objective, but that is ok..he is an opinion writer and he is entitled to that.
But everyone has one.. Frank Rich does also.


by hawkjt on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 05:55:05 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 3)

May I suggest two reasons?

1.  While their remedies have some similarities in their proposals to change the income exemptions for social security, he does not push the "crisis" language in the way Obama explicitly does.  Krugman's criticism of Obama is less about his remedies and more about his framing.

2.  There are many other issues on the policy agenda, on most of which Edwards was clearly more progressive than Obama.  In the context of their campaigns, given the way he expressed his views and the rationale he  for his campaign, perhaps Krugman viewed Edwards as less a "leap of faith" on Social Security.


"We live entangled in webs of endless deceit, often self-deceit, but with a little honest effort, it is possible to extricate ourselves from them". -- NC
by Trond Jacobsen on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 09:03:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 4)

It's really quite amazing how people just make stuff up about Krugman in order to claim bias.  He worked for Bill Clinton?  Really?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 09:23:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 5)

More than that they made up a child he's never had (at least according to Open Left) in order to say that child works for the Clintons.

The thing that makes this just a tad scary is how Bush like this is in terms of support. If you said anything against Bush, it was per se a grounds to consider you evil. As if we are in a holy war. Obama is right because its Obama. You are evil because you disagree. Therefore, Krugman must be evil and attacked on highly personal grounds.

The irony is that this is as  far from unity and trying to bring us altogether as you get. It seems they are preaching unity with the GOP voters, but not with understanding Democratic concerns.

Krugman correctly identities one of my issues with this "post partisan' rhectoric. That is it preaches post partisan but ends up giving the conservative argument a boost.

This is why I see no difference between it and triangulation. if the end result is that you give a boost to conservative arguments (despite your intent of producing unity) then its for  all practical purpose triangulation by another name.

To be truly post partisan- Obama should be able to move left, while being able to dialogue. The fact that he must move right to dialogue says this isn't a conversation of equals.


by bruh21 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 10:13:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Todd: Are you bending over backward to accept HRC's Iraq war vote?
When krugman was that beacon of light in 03; was the Iraq war a major part of that?

So you are calling HRC's votes for war,against levin and for kyle/liberman the more progressive stance?

I suppose that having a fundraiser on here while penning a negative diary on obama makes great business sense.
This site is HRC heavy and they will eat this up and give you money. Fine. That's good business for you.

Embrace the HRC ''progressive war''. We progressives love 4000 dead americans and 1. trillion dollars of healthcare assistance being spent in Iraq.


by hawkjt on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 06:02:25 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

I totally agree with your point about Hillary's hawkish foreign policy stances, I find them consistently deplorable and dangerous, but impugning the motives of our hosts in relation to their editorial ethics and grass-roots fund-raising efforts seems to me counter-productive.  Todd has been pretty even-handed over time, likewise other front-pagers here and Jerome, well, he can do as he pleases and does so.  It may not always be what we want to hear but that is part of the appeal of the site, don't you think?


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 06:12:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Here we are...Bush/Rove style tactics:

Why bother responding at all to the issues at hand when you can just change the subject, impugn motives, attack character, and muddy the waters?

All based on a leap of faith based on who you think Obama is.


by rcipw on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:46:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

I want to apologize to Todd, I was under the influence of alcohol (yes, I am using that old excuse) and was too harsh in my opinions.

Yes, Krugman has legit concerns about obama's healthcare plan..I do not agree but he is very knowledgable and I recognize that.
Krugman has been laser focused on that issue and I look at a bigger spectrum of issues. Iraq is huge for me,naturally, with a son in Bagdad right now,and I tend to get a little carried away.. Sorry.


by hawkjt on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:53:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 13)

What has amazed me over the past few weeks is how quick the liberal blogosphere has been willing to cast aside or dismiss progressives such as Krugman once they voice concerns over Obama. Here they are tossing overboard someone whose writings were considered gospel when explaining the disastrous effect of many of the Bush/Cheney/GOP policies in favor of a blank slate whose own track record is dubious at best.

This also applies to the many if not all of the criticisms made of Hillary followed by statements as if they're established fact, when in fact no basis for such statements are provided.

I myself am mystified over why anyone thinks Obama is even remotely qualified to be President considering his experience is nowhere near that of a JFK or even a RFK, let alone a Hillary. Consider: JFK was a military commander, served three terms in the Congress and elected twice to the Senate before running for President. He had also traveled extensively around the world, gaining valuable insight that would serve him well in the Presidency. Obviously, Obama is no JFK, and for Caroline to compare Obama to her father does her father's memory a grave disservice, but since she probably has no real memories of her father, a daughter's mythology will serve instead.

Likewise, RFK had run several political campaigns, including JFK's run for the Presidency, served as Attorney General in JFK's cabinent before then running for the Senate. Considering how pivotal a political figure RFK was during the 60's, by comparison Obama is a lightweight, with no real blood on his hands from any fighting on the front lines.

While his supporters like to point to Obama's 2002 comments against the Iraq war, they conveniently leave out the two salient arguments that destroy his claim of having good judgement. One: he had no skin in the game. It's easy to say one thing when you don't have a vote to hold you accountable. Two: While he may have been against the war in 2002, since he's been in the Senate, he has done nothing in support of actually ending the war, always voting to provide funds to continue the war. In short, he doesn't back up his words with actions.

On the other hand, Obama has been quick to blame Democrats much like Joe Lieberman has done when it comes to partisanship and the inability to get things done, yet is never held to the same standards as Lieberman. Now why is that?

Likewise, his supporters like to claim he can win the GE whereas Hillary doesn't stand a chance. But what is their basis for this claim? That he was able to appeal to independents and Republicans in IL when elected to the Senate? If so, they're ignoring the fact that Hillary not only won over independents and Republicans in NY, she also had to overcome the "carpetbagger" label when running. Having lived in NY for many years and having voted for Hillary during her run in 2000, I can attest to the fact that her initial run was not the "gimme" many people made it out to be, especially during the early days of the campaign when it looked like Guiliani was going to run.

On the other hand, Hillary has not only shown she can take the worst the GOP can dish out, but that she can slug back harder than any of the rest of them. Obama, on the other hand, has done nothing to convince me he doesn't have a glass jaw. If he and his supporters think the Clintons were mean and nasty, they might as well go into hiding when the GOP lets loose. They will not hesitate to play the race card one bit, and by the time they're through, most of white America will believe he's related to both Osama and Saddam on top of being an Al-Qeda sleeper agent.

What also gets me is that they never stop to think what happens should Obama be the nominee and go on to lose the GE. Do his supporters honestly think he has another shot in 2012 or beyond? What not ask Mike Dukakis for his insights on that topic.

On the flip side, this brings me to the Hillary critics who say they want to vote for a woman President, just not THIS WOMAN. Guess what? If Hillary doesn't make the cut, it'll be a long time before another woman even makes it this far, if ever again, at least in our lifetimes. Same goes for Obama. Should neither make it over the finish line, the great social experiment is over, as Dems will go back to selecting the white guy in hopes of attaining the White House again. If America elects a GOP President after the past eight disastrous years, that will be proof positive we as a nation are not anywhere near as progressive as many of us would like to think.

Neither Obama or his supporters have been consistent or reasoned in their arguments. His claim of being the only inspirational and historic candidate is undercut by the fact that just as many if not more Hillary supporters find her just as inspirational and historic.


by SoCalHillMan on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 06:07:55 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Not consistent or reasoned in their arguments?  Let's face it, Hillary is a domestic policy wonk, that is her strength, but on foreign policy she leaves plenty to be desired from a progressive point of view.  To suggest that the supporters of one candidate or another have some inherent flaw in their integrity or reasoning seems an indefensible argument.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 06:15:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 1)

since 2004 Obama has a pretty hawkish war stance, including pre-emptive war.  Not only is there plenty in his foreign policy to give progressives pause, he has stuck his foot in his mouth enough times that it would be political suicide in the GE for no gain on substantive policy.


by rcipw on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:48:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 1)

Excellent diary. I couldnt agree more. Jimmy Carter ran on change and look what happened to him.


by Safe at Home on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 06:32:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 2)

Can somebody tell me who the last Democratic candidate was who DID NOT RUN ON CHANGE?  Certainly every "insurgent" candidate has run to change things.  

I still remember Walter Mondale, striking back against the growing tide of the Gary Hart campaign in 1984, and asking: "Where's the beef"?  Indeed, supporters of Senator Obama, I ask you--where is it?  

It is getting surreal.  Paul Krugman, everyone should know, is his own man; he is not shilling for HRC.  He is a lonely canary in the coal mine, begging Democrats to take off the rose-colored glasses of the Obama/Oprah/Teddy and now even the Eisenhower granddaughter coalition, and telling us to wake up.  

But, alas, Oprah sells lots of books.


by bslev22 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 09:52:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, that Mondale beef sure did the trick.  


by tawinmd on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 10:43:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Hillary in 2000 won by 12%, Gore by 25%....  That's not exactly winning a lot of crossover votes.

If you want to talk about track record -- Obama has been a solid vote on unions, choice and defending the constitution.  In Illinois he took on the police in pushing through recording all interrogations.  Do you think either Clinton would have worked for that?

In 2006, he supported the gitmo defense attorneys trying to get a fair trial for their clients, most of whom still have no demonstrated links to terrorism at all.  They all stood up and endorsed him a week ago.  That means a lot to me.

Finally, you can quibble about skin in the game on the Iraq war, but as a senator he marched for immigrant rights and spoke out at the 2006 rally here in Chicago, and he spoke against Kyl-Lieberman while Hillary rushed to again burnish her hawk credentials.

I'm not a fan of his position on mandates, but let's face it, both of these plans are starting out as politically compromised visions of universal care.


by dbt on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 06:56:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Everyone has their own issues, so but my gut says Hillary would've gone along on the positions Obama has taken. Likewise, it would be unfair of me to attack Obama for not doing enough for the victims of 9/11, even though Hillary has been fighting that battle since the collapse of the WTC. Why don't you ask the NY police and firefighters where they stand when it comes to Hillary?

Oh, yeah, speaking of the military, Hillary enjoys much more support among the Admirals and Generals than her husband ever did, as well as veterans, as she speaks to their concerns every time she speaks. I saw this during her appearance at Cal State LA and the response was overwhelming.


by SoCalHillMan on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:46:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention the following:

Hillary has come out front and center for Universal Health Care, and that you shouldn't vote for ANY Democrat who doesn't support it, and not just at the Presidential level.

THAT, my friend, is a SIGNIFICANT difference from Obama's position as it does not start out with any capitulation to the GOP.


by SoCalHillMan on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:52:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (1.00 / 1)

Mandatory Insurance or Else is a better title. UHC is misleading.


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 02:23:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Hillary has acknowledged the process will be incremental, but the overall goal is UHC, which everyone - including those on the Right - knows is the battle she's prepared to fight.


by SoCalHillMan on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 04:23:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

But first we have to pay the insurance companies off?

What I'm seeing here is Democrats again trying to lose. Ignoring the fact that the Clinton's will sell people out in a second (i.e. welfare, immigration, death penalty) this plan has "loser" written all over it.

McCain will put out ads saying that HRC is going to force you to pay more $$$ or punish you and she's done. Even if she's not done the policy will be so savaged that it will be DOA. Americans aren't going to accept being forced to pay more $$$ when they already think they pay too much in taxes.


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 04:34:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Go back and research Dem history between 1992 through 1994 and be amazed to discover how much the Dems were selling out the Clintons over petty reasons. I didn't vote for Clinton but I was curious to see how he'd do, hoping for the best, and continually being stunned by Dem skulduggery thwarting progressive causes. We couldn't even get a Cuomo to the bench because of how weak-kneed most Dems were, unlike the GOP who successfully elevated a Roberts and Alito.

So please don't accuse Hillary of being a sell-out.

By the way, Obama-supporters, if you really want to see an anti-war candidate, read up on RFK during the 1968 election. Obama isn't anyone's profile-in-courage by comparison.


by SoCalHillMan on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 06:02:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

You mean Bill Clinton was forced to make it easier to execute people, deport people, cut poor people off, and jail people?


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 07:01:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

WOW  WOW  WOW  WOW  WOW  WOW

What a wonderful comment - you cover it all in my books.  Will you post this over a DKOS (keep your head down, of course) - oh, never mind, it's not worth the effort!

Seriously, you have said everything that has been going on in my mind for the past two weeks when I made my decision to vote for Hillary.

Thank you for giving voice to my heart.


by Shazone on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 09:21:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Hillary Clinton has been a go along to get along centrist since she has been in the Senate.  She has produced no important legislative accomplishments, instead focusing on cosmetic centrist "positioning" on things like national security and flag-burning.  Obama has a stronger record of actual legislative accomplishment, in half the time in the Senate. Clinton has not been a leader on anything, much less progressive causes.  Right now she is running to the left, because she is a run-of-the-mill pol, and that's what run-of-the-mill pols do during Democratic primaries.  If she gets the nomination, she will scurry right back to the center.

Also, the idea that she has been "vetted" and shown that she can face everything the Republicans can throw at her, is one of the most ridiculous assertions that has been made on her behalf.  So far, the real dirt on Clinton has been confined to a right-wing subculture, and has not been fully aired and pursued in the mainstream media.  Once we get to a actual general election campaign in which Hillary Clinton is the actual candidate for President, we're going to face a deluge.  All of it - including Juanita Broaddrick and the entire stinking trail of abuse and personal destruction that the cretinous Clinton duo has left in their wake - is going to burst forth from this right-wing subculture and become our entire topic of national discussion for several months.  In the end, Clinton is going to go down in flames, because the vast majority of the American people are uninterested in reliving the sickening Bill and Hill spectacle for another four years.


by Dan Kervick on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 11:19:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Please list what legislation of significance - if any - that Obama was key in writing and seeing it get passed. If you're going to compare records, let's see the comparison, not a blanket statement.


by SoCalHillMan on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:26:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

The one that means the most to me was the Obama-Lugar bill expanding US cooperation with former Soviet bloc countries to destroy conventional weapons.  But here's some more stuff:

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=68 15841748&topic=4269


by Dan Kervick on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 04:06:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He who shall not be named (none / 0)

Although Obama wants people to see him as a JFK I see him more as a Jimmy Carter. Well meaning but doomed.

Carter won the I-am-the-outsider-I-can-change-it mandate election after America emerged from an unpopular war and Republican corruption at the presidential level.

Carter had a Democratic Congress to work with.

Carter had to deal with economic hard times which the next President will also certainly inherit.

Going in Obama has less experience that people respect than either JFK or Carter. I'm sorry, but community organizer doesn't cut it. He will deal with Republicans who know that absolute obstructionism works. Any program he can get passed will be absolutely gutted. Americans will get increasingly dissatisfied and wonder what the hell the ever saw in him. In four years a Charlie Crist or Jeb Bush comes along and kicks him to the roadside.


by ineedalife on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:02:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He who shall not be named (none / 0)

"Any program he can get passed will be absolutely gutted."

Not to mention the fact that Obama apparently views "bi-partisanship"/compromise as the highest virtue, which means that when the Republicans come with their knives drawn he will welcome them slicing up our programs, because "including" them is more virtuous than fighting for the core progressive values.


by rcipw on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:51:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

You think she will repudiate AEDPA, DADT, IIRIRA, DOMA, and NAFTA?


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 02:25:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 1)

What progressives overlook more often than not is the double-standard to which Hillary is held to with regards to foreign policy AKA Iraq. I and many progressives I know (hell, call us liberals if you like) accepted the position she HAD to vote the way she did if she had any intention of ever running for President, otherwise her opponents BOTH Dem and GOP would have painted her as weak on national security, playing the gender card in a very negative way.

On the other hand, here you are making the claim that Hillary's position on foreign policy is a major weakness for progressives, yet since he has been elected to the Senate, EXACTLY WHAT has Obama done that differs from Hillary's position? Where has he taken the position on foreign policy in either votes or legislation that differs from Hillary? And please don't quote me his stand in 2002, as that doesn't count as he wasn't in the Senate to stand up and be counted. However, if you are completely honest with yourself, you KNOW there is only ONE VOTE in which he voted the opposite of Hillary, in which she ended up on the better side of that argument, if I recall correctly.

That's why I consider the arguments of Obama supporters very flawed to begin with.


by SoCalHillMan on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 06:31:51 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 2)

Both Senator Clinton and Senator Obama are flawed candidates.
I supported Edwards.
Obama is just wrong on the health care issue.

But besides that, I read widely in the blogosphere, and Obama's supporters have seriously turned me off voting for him.
The "unity" candidate has dreadful supporters.

Obama supporters, you are NOT doing your candidate any good.  I except commenters on this thread from that description.  


by kmblue on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 07:30:19 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Well, you told them!


by rcipw on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:54:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Given that Maureen Dowd won a Pulitzer for trivial articles about Bill and Monica, does not Krugman deserve the Pulitzer Prize for his insight and courage extending over seven years?  But the right-wing infection of our nation is so pervasive that he will have to content himself with our admiration.


by Bob H on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 07:36:50 AM EST

Re: Obama's Foreign Policy Problem (none / 0)

Barack Obama is a loser on foreign policy. He made the most moronic statement of all--absolutely parroting Bush's pre-emptive war policy--when he said he'd invade Pakistan with special forces to go after Bin Laden if we had "intelligence" that Bin Laden was in Pakistan and Musharraf didn't go after him. It resulted in rioting in the streets in Pakistan, with effigys of Obama and Bush being burned, american flags being burned....it was an utter disaster. It showed his inexperience.

Moreover, speaking to AIPAC, Obama said he'd keep ALL OPTIONS on the TABLE with regard to Iran and wouldn't rule out a military strike on Iran because "Iran poses a danger to us all."

And, NOW he has dispatched DICK MORRIS to Kenya to interfere in the country's inner political dissension. DICK MORRIS--the toe-sucking, whore-mongering "diplomat?" Oh, please.

Obama has not impressed on the world stage, I can assure you.

The Times of London has picked up on the issue that Senator Obama has not convened a policy related hearing of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee Subcommittee on Europe and added to this something I reported yesterday -- which was that Europe does not figure into Obama's travel profile.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/wo rld/us_and_americas/article3080794.ece

"Fresh doubts over Barack Obama's foreign policy credentials were expressed on both sides of the Atlantic last night, after it emerged that he had made only one brief official visit to London - and none elsewhere in Western Europe or Latin America." It also reported: "Mr. Obama had failed to convene a single policy meeting of the Senate European subcommittee, of which he is chairman.

"These basic facts, coming from a major foreign newspaper, are a sobering counterpoint to a gushing Boston Globe editorial that endorsed Obama for having "an intuitive sense of the wider world with all its perils and opportunities."

Intuition may be a laudable quality among psychics and palm readers, but for a professional American diplomat like myself, who have spent a career toiling in the vineyards of national security, it has no relevance to serious discussion of foreign policy.

In fact, Obama's supposed "intuitive sense" is no different from George W. Bush's "instincts" and "gut feeling" describing his own foreign policy decision-making.

We have been down this road before. Barack Obama attended elementary school in Indonesia before the age of 10, his chief period of time abroad. I, too, spent years overseas in my formative school years. While the experience certainly whetted my appetite for international relations, it did not provide me either with "intuition" or expertise in the conduct of my nation's foreign policy. My understanding of international affairs came from twenty-three years of professional diplomacy, much of it spent overseas dealing at senior levels on crises such as serving as the acting U.S. ambassador to Iraq stationed in Baghdad during the first Gulf War.

Senator Obama echoes and reflects the same attitude of contempt for "on the ground experience." Acting on his superior "intuition" he has proposed unilateral bombing of Pakistan and unstructured summits without preconditions with adversaries such as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Kim Jong Il.

As we have learned, the march of folly is paved with good but naïve intentions. After he came to Washington, Obama's views were thoroughly conventional and even timid.

In 2004, he said about the 2002 congressional Authorization for the Use of Military Force: "I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports. What would I have done? I don't know."

On Iraq-related votes in the Senate, Obama's record identically matches Senator Clinton's-with the exception that Senator Clinton voted against the confirmation of General George Casey as Army chief of staff. Obama's vote was typically passive.

Senator Clinton for President, because we know that she has the experience and the judgment that comes from having been in the arena for her entire adult life-and from close personal participation with her in the conduct of U.S. foreign policy. And we have trust in her to end the war in Iraq in the most responsible way, consistent with our national security interests.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-wilson /the-real-hillary-i-know-_b_77878.html

Obama Shows No Modesty on Foreign Policy Record

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politi cs/blog/2007/12/obamas_foreign_policy_se lfasse.html

Clinton's Foreign Policy Record:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lissa-musc atine-and-melanne-verveer/hillarys-unpre cedented-e_b_76883.html


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 08:18:19 AM EST

Re: Obama's Foreign Policy Problem (none / 0)

Not to mention his being injected into Kenya's politics.  Google OBAMA ODINGA and find out what's hiding in a multitude of RW blogs.

Larry Johnson mapped the whole thing out a few days ago over at NO QUARTER.  He's very concerned about what has happened.  Getting into the middle of a situation that involves Odinga who has supporters, some of which are gangs linked to the Taliban who burn alive 50 people in a church, is not a good place to be.  Don't know if Odinga has ordered some of the killing, but there's enough there for the GOP to make hay.  Furthermore, Luo tribe members (Odinga's tribe) think Obama is their salvation.  On top of that, Odinga is promulgating Sharia Law, another tidbit that will be exploited if Obama wins.  


by Gloria on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 02:02:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

This is what has been troubling me about Obama: you have to cross your fingers that he's really more liberal than he sounds. On the other hand, the image of Bill Clinton loose in the White House is more than I can bear....


by georgiaka on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 08:20:59 AM EST

A devastating indictment (2.00 / 1)

I'm deeply suspicious of Obama's bipartisan bent, and with much respect look to Prof. Krugman for guidance in matters of policy.  He seems to have been for John Edwards, based on the hints he's dropped in his many articles criticizing Obama, but now that Edwards has dropped out, I have a feeling he'll vote for Hillary.  Krugman is deeply partisan, but partisan for the true ideals of the Democrats, willing to fight for our core beliefs.

Obama is not the answer.


by Sieglinde on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 08:23:36 AM EST

Re: A devastating indictment (none / 0)

If Krugman is a partisan then he's forgotten about the Clinton's penchant for throwing their constituents and Democratic ideals under the bus.

Apparently many people have.


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 03:06:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fighting on the Edges (none / 0)

Anyone who says that the Clintons are more progressive is kidding themselves. Both of these candidates are orthodox liberals.

Mandates are not progressive. Single payer is progressive. No one is campaigning on that.


by aiko on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 08:44:57 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 1)

Just take a look at the Clinton administration.

Having lived through the time, I remember that the progressive community was not happy with him.

DOMA, welfare reform, triangulating, DLC policies.

You can criticize Obama, but where's the careful look at what Bill and Hillary Clinton did?

That's what makes this diary a hit piece.  It is based on one analysts and focuses on one candidate.  


by mainelib on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 08:59:53 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 2)

Actually what it makes you is blind. The reality is that a choice between more of the same and more of the same isn't a choice, and what people are seeking in these discussions isn't how bad the Clinton's are , but to test the unknown quantity that Obama represents. I am undecided. I supported Edwards. He's out. I still go to vote Tuesday. The goals I've had in these discussions is for some of you to posit arguments that will make my choice easier. To me, there is not a dime worth of difference between capitulating to the right because you are triangulating on issues or because you have good intent, but want to be post partisan. His own language condemns him. You need to respond to that rather than closing your ears and yelling its all an attack piece. Frankly that was old months ago,a nd now it just childish. Respond to the substance or stop wasting all our times.


by bruh21 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 10:26:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Hi Bruh,

I've admired Edwards and he is my second choice and it is because of his attacks on the "Washington system" especially in regard to how lobbyists undermine democracy.

How high does this issue rank with you?  (for me it is #1)  Because Obama has similar ideas and Sen. Clinton is 180 degrees away from what I can see.


by Satya on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:17:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

It's very important to me. but right now, my concern is also whether Obama seems to be running as if 1993 until 2008 didn't happen. At its core, my fear is that Obama is running as Clinton 1992. My question then becomes do I want to vote for a guy who seems stuck on a frame that although uplifting is nevertheless dangerous because he misses where we are in the times. As I wrote elsewhere -- his frame is post partisan, but in order to be post partisan he always seem to be accomadating the right ward frame rather than left. What you see as a weakness  in Clinton, I agree, is one. But if given a choice between someone I know no one will implicitly trust, and a guy whom people are placing too much faith, I am considering the too little trust approach because Obama's strategies I feel are as flaw as triangulation because it leads to similar not the same results. His being well meaning doesn' t necessarily change this calculus, although it may. I haven't decided.


by bruh21 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 02:14:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Edwards was my first choice but it's clear that the Clinton's couldn't give two shits about Democratic ideals and that a guy who skipped the $$$ to organize people on the Southside of Chicago does.


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 03:08:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 1)

A hit piece?

How is substantive policy debate using one of the leading progressive intellectuals a "hit piece?"

The response of Obama supporters only deepens my fear...rather than responding to the substance you resort to Bush/Rove style attacks on whoever dares to question your candidate by smearing them and changing the subject.

Also, I think it is unfair to assume a Hillary Clinton presidency would be the same as a Bill Clinton presidency.  They are different people, and she often has more progressive tendencies.  She is much more of a fighter than he is, and, as Jerome alluded, she can make the most of the entire progressive movement that is here ready to fight.


by rcipw on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:00:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Questions. I was an Edwards supporter but now I'm going to vote for Obama.

However, if you can share information that shows that HRC is more progressive than BJC (who was quite progressive in rhetoric but not when it counted) and that this isn't going to be a two person show (as it was billed the last time they ran) I'd love to see it. So would my SO who is heartbroken that HRC doesn't appear to be very progressive at all and that they played this one dirty.


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 03:10:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Unfortunately my opinion on this has been built by up watching over the years, and I don't have time to hunt for specific articles.

If there is one source that reaffirmed this for me, it would be the Carl Bernstein biography of Hillary.

I strongly recommend this book to everyone.  I think it is an honest take on Hillary, with all the good and the bad.  This was reinforced for me by the fact that I read it and came away a strong Hillary supporter.  I recommended the book to a friend, and she came away an Obama supporter. Love her or hate her, I think it is an honest take.

Like I said, the book confirmed for me some of my observations:

In terms of Hillary's progressive credentials, I look over her career of working on issues including women's equality, maintaining a career as a woman in the 70's, education solutions in Arkansas, of course her health care reforms, SCHIP, she was always there as a voice pushing for more progressive values, for more engagement against the republicans.  During the white house years, she was the fighter who always wanted to push harder, Bill was the reconciler who toned her down.

In terms of Bill's involvement, if you look back there were disagreements between the two of them, including the fight/reconcile stuff I mention above, but also including her ongoing strategic advice.  After they suffered losses, including health care, the '94 take over, his early poor performance in the '96 re-elect, she saw her role diminished.  She would come back to run things during the impeachment, but there was definite tension between then at times.  This was a cooperative affair but not always on the same page.  Bill wanted and used her advice, but only to the point it helped his Presidency.  At the end of the day, he was the President.

I think the same would be true for Hillary's presidency.  They would collaborate, he would be supportive, but at the end of the day she would be in charge and there would be times that her take overruled his, never vice versa.

They have had to have this balance for a long time, being in a marriage with two brilliant, ambitions, progressive people.


by rcipw on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 07:59:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 1)

I remember the Clinton years quite well, having voted my heart instead of my head, which meant I didn't vote for Clinton either in '92 or '96. (Truth be told, I wrote in Cuomo on my ballot during the NH primary.) During the '92 election, Bill was perceived as liberal with Hillary considered moreso, a perception reinforced with the early battle over gays in the military once Bill got into office. However, what happened next was predictable, as Clinton suffered lack of support from his own party in the Congress and Senate much like Carter had.

Unlike the GOP, which tends to vote lock-step according to the wishes of their party's President, the Dems in Congress and the Senate have a notorious history of turf battles, making it much more difficult for a Dem President to accomplish anything of true importance.

Conveniently, while the progressives tend to dismiss Clinton as the Great Triangulator, they ignore the fact that it was the ONLY way he could possibly govern given the aftermath of the '94 election. Likewise, they also ignore the fact the Dems in Congress and the Senate had as much if not more to do with their downfall in '94 than Clinton did, failing to address the concerns of their constituents while allowing themselves to be painted as corrupt and ineffective by their GOP opponents. If the Left was truly honest with itself, they'd acknowledge Dems in the Congress and Senate were selling out Democratic constituent interests long before Bill Clinton ran for office. Not only that, but the Left demonstrated how ineffectual they were as fighters over the long haul, allowing the Right Wing to apply a hammerlock in framing the debate, which is how we find ourselves in the mess we have today.

Watching guys like Stoller, Bowers and Kos support Obama is pretty laughable as they're basically making a leap of faith that none of the facts justify making, considering the evidence that Obama is already capitulating to the GOP frame where Social Security and healthcare are concerned, to name just two of many issues he has done so. On the other hand, Hillary is clearly taken the superior position on those issues and more while supporting the Democratic brand.

What that tells me is what I've been seeing from many guys in their age-group: race doesn't matter but sex does, and for all their talk of code words, they're making it clear they view the Presidency as an all-boys' club.


by SoCalHillMan on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:18:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Thank you!

I think this is really important...there is a big difference between talking about Hillary Clinton's experience from the 90's and saying that Hillary Clinton wants to re-run the Bill Clinton presidency blow by blow.

They are different people, our nation is in a different place, and I strongly believe that Clinton would be a practical fighter for progressives.


by rcipw on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:52:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 3)

But Obama says if people are gaming the system, then maybe they will need to be forced to pay back premiums?  Maybe not?  Who knows what he believes because sometimes it appears to be expressed so as to conform to the needs of the moment.

By concern is that even if Obama does want universal care - and I absolutely believe he does - I am not at all confident he will be in a position to achieve it, given the rhetorical markers he has set and his reflexive inclusion of GOPers and their talking points.

My view is that the Democratic position of social security is that there is no crisis and that what is needed, if anything, are long term adjustments.  Ds in Congress should say to GOPers: "so you guys think there is a crisis?  Well, we will consider removing the exemption on higher income.  Nearly everything else is off the table: no benefits reductions, no higher retirement age.  Now, what is your position?  That SS is in crisis that needs a remedy, or that we need to punish regular folks so the rich don't have to pay more.  Oh, I see, that is what you want.  No deal in dismantling the New Deal.  Goodbye".


"We live entangled in webs of endless deceit, often self-deceit, but with a little honest effort, it is possible to extricate ourselves from them". -- NC
by Trond Jacobsen on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 09:12:07 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

I'm a relatively new reader, but I detect a significant bias toward Clinton in Todd's posts. Has Todd officially acknowledged he is a Clinton supporter or does he claim to be objective? In the interest of full disclosure, I favor Obama, but will wholeheartedly support Clinton in the general election should she secure the nomination.


by keatsheart on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 09:26:27 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Everytime someone disagrees with your own bias (which is what you post is really about) doesn't mean you get to assume they aren't being objective or fair. right now, because edwards dropped out, i am trying to decide between clinton and obama- many of you aren't making my decision easier in your defensiveness regarding a question thats looming in my mind as my central concern.


by bruh21 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 10:27:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 3)

As a new reader, it would behoove you to research Todd's writing before labelling him significantly biased toward Clinton. For example, a quick Google search and I found this:

Now, I much prefer Edwards's position on the war generally and his framing of the "surge" more specifically, but let's not pretend it's a terribly substantive disagreement. There's plenty of having it both ways to go around. My larger issue with Clinton is when she chooses to reinforce right-wing talking points, whether it be her oft-repeated refrain "we're safer but not safe enough," or when she suggested that some Democrats don't think we face a real threat from terrorism, or elsewhere in her VFW speech where she clumsily transitions from talking about 9/11 and fighting terrorists directly into her praise for the new tactics in Iraq as though they're related. Talk about Bush/Cheney light. The more I hear her say stuff like this, the more Obama's accusation rings true.

So, is Todd significantly biased toward one of the candidates...or is he an intellectually honest blogger, who will criticize any candidate when they deserve it? The answer seems pretty clear.


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 10:53:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

As I said, I'm a new reader. I have not gone back and read months worth of posts. I was asking a question based on what I've read in the last couple of weeks. I am not at all anti-Clinton. I just think she's a weaker general election candidate, and I want to go into November with the strongest possible contender.  And no one answered my actual question. Has Todd taken sides?


by keatsheart on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:43:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Todd has not taken sides.

In fact, as a Clinton supporter, I thought for a long time that Todd was secretly supporting Obama because he posted things which seemed to lean that way.

Combined with how Obama supporters feel sometimes, I think it is a pretty good sign that he is neutral.

I think the same is true for Jonathan and Jerome.  It is much easier to accuse someone of bias than to swallow a bitter pill, but the pill is always better  for your health!


by rcipw on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:03:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Read Todd's stuff. He's taken sides.


by wolff109 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 05:11:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

MyDD is pro-Clinton, sure, but that's okay (none / 0)

Keatsheart,

As someone leaning more and more for Obama, here's my take on MyDD.

MyDD has been clearly pro-Clinton, as have most people who post here. In contrast, many left-leaning blogs support Obama. If you want pro-Obamania, this ain't the spot.

I do not know the folks who run MyDD, and cannot speak to their motives [Except one person]

I think the MyDD folks have come to the reasonable conclusion that Clinton would be a better nominee. They clearly doubt Obama's progressive bona fides, and his ability to win. The posts speak to the reasons for their choice. Most MyDD posts are intellectually sound and rigorous, and grounded in evidence.

Wish I could say the same for many in the comments section, but don't feel that's always been the case.


by wolff109 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 11:26:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MyDD is pro-Clinton, sure, but that's okay (2.00 / 1)

nah, none of the frontpage writers have been pro-clinton or pro-obama. Todd and Jonathan's preferences well before the Iowa cacuses I believe was Obama, while Jerome's was Edwards.

Now, there is definitely a large, vocal Clinton Crew who express disproportionally to their support. But interestingly enough, it seems more Edwards supporters have broke more heavily towards Clinton than Obama (which is also the case for me, though I'm still going to vote Edwards), which is definitely the oppoosite than for example on DailyKos. But I think part of it is that more than anything else, MyDDers want proud, partisan Democrats.


by KainIIIC on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:05:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MyDD is pro-Clinton, sure, but that's okay (none / 0)

"none of the frontpage writers have been pro-clinton ... Todd and Jonathan's preferences...was Obama..."

With all due respect, you're dead wrong.

MyDD writers are pro Clinton. Doesn't mean everything they write is a hack job, nor is everything virulent. It's just that their substance generally favors Clinton over Obama.

Okay, I cheated: I asked them. I happen to know how at least one of them thinks, so let's not argue. :)


by wolff109 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 05:10:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

The only one of Krugman's criticisms that has any substance is the assessment of Obama's health care proposal.  The others are lame and dishonest.

On Social Security, nobody has ever been able to give me any intelligible explanation of how Obama's approach is less progressive than the approach of his rivals.  Obama is the one who actually wants to raise the payroll tax on the top 3% to 4% of individual wage earners in the country (those individuals making over $95.5 K) to shore up Social Security financing beyond its current limits, and ward of the privatizers for another generation.  I always thought raising taxes on the affluent for social purposes was considered progressive.  Edwards for some reason wanted to exempt people people in the $95.5 K to $200 K range.  (I guess giving breaks to the affluent is on of those "progressive" causes of his life which are deeply personal to him.)  Clinton bravely wants to throw the whole Social Security issue in the lap of a bipartisan commission that will then tell her what to do. (Hint: given it's bipartisan nature the committee will probably include some amount of privatization in the recommended mix.)

The claim that Obama's Social Security proposal is not progressive appears to be rooted in a kneejerk dogma developed during the last privatization debate that the "progressive approach" to Social Security should be to say from now until eternity that there are no weaknesses in the current financing system and we never have to address social security, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever.  This is just stupid.  Unless we do something now to stretch out the financing beyond its current limits, in ten years when we have to start raising taxes to pay of the notes in the trust fund, we are going to be right back in the middle of another privatization movement.  And I tell you what.  It isn't 48 year olds like me who will be stiffed as the outcome of that debate, but younger people.

Krugman's criticism on the stimulus package were also without merit, and seem to confuse the goals of a stimulus package with other kinds of spending initiatives.  The whole point of a stimulus package is to get cash in the hands of people who will spend it, and to do this rapidly.  It is no time for spending weeks or months debating long-term public investment initiatives.  All of the long term progressive initiatives that Krugman wants - including aggressive public investment in alternative energy for example - are part of the economic policy package on which Obama is running.  The only thing Obama didn't do is foolishly grandstand for voters by injecting some of these proposals into his immediate term stimulus package, proposals which would have stretched out the debate on the stimulus package for many more weeks, probably wouldn't have been passed anyway given the current makeup of the federal government, and would have wasted vital time in addressing a recession that is starting now.

The health care issue is a real one.  For me the mandates issues comes down to political strategy.  Pushing for an individual mandate now would cover more people.  But it would also give the opponents of health care reform a powerful political tool and wedge to weaken support for the legislation.   There are a whole bunch of Americans who regrettably have a fanatical opposition to the government making them do anything, and including the mandates in the reform packages makes an already uphill task much steeper.

Krugman tends to view all of these issues from the wonky, ivory tower perspective of an academic economist, and seems oblivious to political realities and challenges.


by Dan Kervick on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 09:28:06 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 1)

Raising the payroll tax does absolutely nothing for the long-term health of Social Security unless we first do something about this massive budget deficit.

Any additional payroll tax revenues are instantly borrowed by the general fund.  The trust fund becomes healthier on paper, but only because the general fund becomes unhealthier.

You're simply increasing the pressure on the general fund to pay back the SS fund someday.  And if you assume that one way or another, we'll always be able to find the money in the general fund to pay back SS, then we don't have a problem in the first place.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 10:26:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Krugman's observations are valid.
However last time I looked it was Congress that passes bills.
I am hopeful for huge Dem gains. I doubt Obama would veto a more progressive health care package.

My main problem with HRC remains
http://www.dlc.org/

As a result this former supporter of the Edwards
campaign will caucus for Obama on Tuesday.

also, for me it really is Iraq..and Clinton's failure to admit her vote was a mistake as Edwards did...
(note: without Edwards, my wife will now caucus for HRC...)


"If you want to end war and stuff, you gotta sing loud"...Arlo Guthrie
by nogo war on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 09:41:36 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

When Congress is controlled by the same party as the President, the President sets the whole legislative agenda.

You are fooling yourself if you think a Democratic Congress is going to pass a more aggressive health care plan than what "President Obama" was elected to do.

If he is elected, he will have a mandate for a half-assed, non-universal reform.  Obama will have the backing of the entire Republican machine in order to kill progressive reforms.  If you think Congress is going to go around him and have any success....well....it's a leap of faith.


by rcipw on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:07:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

It's hard to believe so many people view Hillary as the more progressive.

- Does she take on corporate media conglomeration?

- Why doesn't she promote a single-payer health care plan?

- What's her anti-poverty proposal?

- Where's her plank calling for developing affordable housing?

- Where's her comprehensive energy plan to get us off oil?

- Where's her economic plan to invest in human capital and infrastructure?

I don't know see her making a strong case for these, and I don't see her engaging in a national debate about the need for a progressive agenda.

If Obama is not progressive enough for you, than neither should be Hillary Clinton.


by wolff109 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 09:53:25 AM EST

Bingo! You Cannot "Compromise" (none / 0)

with folks who want you, preferably, dead--and for whom "compromise" means knee-capping you with a baseball bat and laughing as you try to crawl...
Obama seems to me to approach negotiation with concessions already granted.
"This Machine Kills Fascists" -- Woody Guthrie's Guitar.
by tokin librul on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 10:11:16 AM EST

This is COMPLETELY WRONG, Its not about Krugman (none / 0)

Obama has no Krugman "problem" WHATSOEVER! By making this, or implying this as a personality thing, you dilute and distract the message.

Krugman has NOTHING against Obama.

Krugman is once again TELLING US THE TRUTH. He is THE MESSENGER OF TRUTH.

The truth is that Obama has a HUGE disconnect between his words and his deeds. His flowy, even uplifting at times words are a distraction from the fact that his policies and tactics are not progressive.

Obama is a smooth talking insider. Period. He is a Trojan Horse. Progressives supporting him will be severely disappointed 2 years hence if he wins.
.


by gak on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 10:14:08 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 3)

Krugman a) never worked for Clinton b) has been expousing on these issues for a while. You really have no choice but to use character assassination to make your argument , do you? I mean you can't respond to teh substance in any meaningful way.


by bruh21 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 10:18:15 AM EST

Krugman (none / 0)

is part of the New York elite - including the NYT that are shilling for Hillary.  He has lost a lot of credibility with progressives lately because of his unreasoned and biased views.  I hope we get him back soon.


Listening comes first
by Moonwood on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 10:28:39 AM EST

Re: Krugman (none / 0)

What about Frank Rich, who is supporting Obama?

Actually, much of the elite media/Democratic base has aligned for Obama.  They are united with much of  the blogospere with having stars in their eyes -- "he can't be wrong, he can't do wrong, he's OBAMA!"


by rcipw on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:12:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

after 8 years of "compassionate conservatisim" , after 8 years of the immature, ignoramus in the white House that everyone used to want to have a beer with, Obama's doublespeak should be sending red flares and horns blaring throughout left blogostans.

* Obama not supporting Dodd against telecom immunity, which is gutless and leaderless. Obama's slight of hand trying to pawn off his history of "present" votes as being "action" Is ridiculous
*
Obama's embrace of an anti-gay violentarian
* Obama's embrace of republican meme's regarding false SS troubles
*
Obama's history attacking democrats on the republican meme of democrats not being religious enough - VERY dangerous stuff
* Obama's embrace of republican/insurance industry fear-mongering on healthcare
*
Obama's claim to be a hands-off president - after 8 years of the psychotic cheney running wild, a hand's off president is hardly what is needed.
* Obama may have been against Iraq invasion, but a) he certainly did not make his voice heard, and b) there are no associated actions, i.e., he DID nothing.
*
praising ronald reagun for God's sake...what could be worse?

All massive warning alarms shouting BEWARE!
.


by gak on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 10:31:16 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (2.00 / 1)

I have been bothered by Obama's Senatorial voting record on Iraq and the 'Careless getting in Careful getting Out' catchphrase.  His three years in Congress don't support his 2002 speech which was extemely anti-Iraq.  In fact he has voted exactly the same as Hillary on the issue of Iraq.  The catchphrase is for all practical purposes the same thing Bush says using different words.  I wonder how long 'Careful' will take?  Will 'Careful' cost 4000 more lives and another 700 billion dollars?  'Careful' is more likely cover for someone who will keep us in Iraq. Either of these candidates is afraid of the 'Blood Bath' in Iraq happening while they are President.


by orionwest on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 10:34:42 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Hillary Clinton has problem, too.  

It's name is Bill.


by stevefought on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 10:52:37 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Personally, I think Bill should be fully unleashed and set loose. Anyone who thinks he's a liability doesn't appreciate how much that man is actually beloved throughout the country.

What I'm seeing now both in the MSM and in the Left blogosphere is a total disconnect from the concerns of real people. As guys like Stoller, Bowers and Kos get co-opted by the system, they sound more like the MSM in parroting the position that Bill is hurting Hillary, when, in fact, their attacks on him (and her) are driving up support for the Clintons. We saw this effect during impeachment, and I suspect we're going to see this support loud and clear come Super Tuesday.

Having volunteered to man the phone banks for Hillary (I'm scheduled to do so again on Monday), I can't tell you how many women are PISSED at the treatment the Clintons are getting, especially Hillary.

Florida was no fluke, my friends, and neither was Michigan.


by SoCalHillMan on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:36:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Though I agree with Krugman's assessment of Obama's positions the truth is that regardless of what the candidates positions are they will have to be run through the sausage making machine before they become law. Having said that it would be nice for Obama to have the correct positions before the sausage making begins, but even before all that you have get elected. I think Obama represents our greatest opportunity to actually obtain power.

"They may forget what you said, but they will never forget how you made them feel."
Carl Buechner

Policy Schmolicy!


by phastphil on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 11:12:11 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (1.00 / 1)

The shilling for Hillary posts by Todd are so freaking annoying.


by snaktime on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 11:14:02 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

He may be pro Clinton, but he's no shill. He's given an objective analysis of the two leading candidates and made his choice. That's it.

The difference is that his thinking process is before us all to see and judge. Unfair to attack him.

I personally am for Obama, and have little regard for people who lack the substance to offer reasoned arguments, but Todd is not among those I criticize. Neither should you.


by wolff109 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 05:14:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good idea for the party (none / 0)

The Democrats forcing people to either pay the government or private health care or else is going to go over real well with lots of people.


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 11:31:49 AM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Krugman is one of the progressives I respect most.  He's freaking genius.  And I've never known him to not very thoughtfully analyze before he speaks.

Obama's entire economic team is bad news.


by WMCB on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:09:06 PM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

It's the cult of personality that bothers me the most.

I didn't trust it when the object of such veneration was Dutch Raygun, and I cannot trust it any more when the object of the veneration is Obama. As far as I can see, the only concrete elements of his speeches (and presumably his platform) are those which echo the Bushevik cabal's talking points.

Plus, I gotta say, I am STILL pissed off about what he's said about those of us who put our bodies on the line in the service of such 'excesses' as ending war, preventing poverty, preserving women's choice, saving the climate, and opposing corporatism.

I am NOT gonna vote for somebody who triangulates OFF ME! F*ck him!


"This Machine Kills Fascists" -- Woody Guthrie's Guitar.
by tokin librul on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:09:11 PM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

I like Krugman too, but I think a lot of his criticisms of Obama have been unfair.

For instance, he rips Obama for talking about the Social Security "crisis" as a crisis -- implying that there's something nefarious in the word "crisis" and that Obama is over-dramatizing the problem.

I disagree. In order to gain public support for even a minor adjustment to Social Security, you have to tell people there's a problem. Otherwise, they won't tolerate any new proposals. After all, if it ain't broke, why fix it? And Obama's "fix" is very progressive. He wants to increase the SS wage cap, so that people making more than $200,000/year (or $250,000, I forget), will have to pay the SS tax.

Right now, you stop paying the SS tax after around $95,000 (I think) in income, so those earning more than $95K don't pay SS tax on any income beyond $95K.

The other candidates haven't even mentioned how they plan to tweak SS, and Krugman hasn't criticized them for not publicizing their plan.

Also, Krugman criticizes Obama's health care plan. I agree with him that the single-payer model is the best option, but NO candidate other than Kucinich was proposing that. He rips Obama's plan, for reasons like it doesn't mandate that everyone's covered. Well, the Massachusetts plan mandates coverage for everyone, and it's becoming a burden for people who can't afford it.

But the reluctance of so many to enroll, along with the possible exemption of 60,000 residents who cannot afford premiums, has raised questions about whether even a mandate can guarantee truly universal coverage.

Additional concerns have been generated by projections that the state's insurers plan to raise rates 10 percent to 12 percent next year, twice this year's national average. That would undercut the plan's secondary goal of slowing the increase in health costs. [...]

Senator Barack Obama of Illinois sees it a different way. He argues there is danger in mandating coverage before it is clear it can be affordable for those at the margins. While Mr. Obama does not rule out a mandate down the road, his emphasis is on reducing costs and providing generous government subsidies to those who need them. He would mandate coverage for children.


It troubles me that Krugman mentions none of this in his columns.

Krugman also attacked Obama for making a point that Reagan was able to pass his sweeping agenda because he was able to build a popular mandate for change. Obama didn't say that the change was good -- he was pointing out that the popular mandate made change possible.

So, I don't know what Krugman has against the guy. I  wish that he would be as even-handed on the Obama thing as he is on other matters.

With great power comes great responsibility.
by CaptCT on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:11:26 PM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Is this the same Krugman who has made it a personal mission to show that Ronald Reagan was evil becuase he used 'code words' (once) in the 1980 election but has been noticably silent when the Clintons want to talk about how Obama is like Jesse Jackson.  Look, it has been clear for some time now that Krugman has a strong political/personal dislike of Obama.  He has missed no chance to bash Obama and missed every chance to criticize an Obama knocker for cases when knock was inaccurate or unfair.  At this point, telling us another way that Krugman says he does not like Obama is not giving us any new information.      


by Counterfactual on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:18:16 PM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

I find it really scary how Obama supporters seem unable to respond to substantive criticisms, but instead return fire with 'kill the messenger' style attacks.

Not to mention the messenger in this case is an unimpeachable progressive.

Other posters have really nailed it -- there is this sense that Obama is right because he is Obama, and you must be wrong because you are attacking Obama.  It is identical to the divisive personality cult surrounding George W. Bush.

This post really hit that home for me and it is quite scary.


by rcipw on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:28:44 PM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

I don't believe that most Americans will feel that forced payments to the government or private insurance companies on top of taxes will be a sign of progress.


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 03:12:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Well, I disagree.  I think most Americans are ready for and want universal health care.  Senator Clinton provides it.  Senator Obama does not.


by rcipw on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 07:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

   It is depressing that Obama does not support universal healthcare.  But it's a binary choice now: Hillary or Obama.  As an Obama supporter, I recognize his flaws.  He won't be our nation's savior.  Krugman's dissent is very troubling to me, as was Feingold's when I was supporting Edwards.  But I don't see Krugman writing in praise of Hillary either.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:30:20 PM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Slow down, chief. It's a long way from the fact that his chief political opponent labels him as someone who doesn't support universal coverage -- just because of a technical difference in their proposals -- to believing he actually has a problem with universal coverage, and saying "he doesn't support it."

The differences with Obama and Clinton are of political tactics, not substantive policy differences. She's putting words in his mouth.

I would argue that neither candidate will offer anything substantially different from the other if elected.


by wolff109 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 05:19:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

    Well, I think you're wrong.  I like Hillary's health care plan.  I also hated Obama's economic stimulus plan from the moment it was released.  I'm afraid that Obama is a social liberal and an economic right-winger.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 05:26:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Governor Neopolitano is on CNN and what's she doing?  Attacking mandates.  This is what makes Obama's position so damaging - other democrats will push it to argue why he should be supported.  So it grows.  

And via Krugman, here is the latest study's conclusion - from the well-respected Urban Institute, I believe - on the difference mandates make.

Reduction of uninsured, without mandate - 23 million
Reduction with mandate - 45 million

Total cost without mandate - 102 billion
Total cost with mandate - 124 billion

Cost per newly insured without mandate - $4400

Cost per newly insured with mandate $2700

As for Massachusetts, it also undermines Obama's plan, here's Krugman

While we're talking about health care reform: I've been getting a fair bit of mail from people who have heard that things are going very badly in Massachusetts. And there have, indeed, been some very downbeat reports in the media lately.

The problem is that they're all wrong. People are confusing an increase in costs that was largely (not completely) anticipated -- after all, the plan is supposed to cover more people, and subsidize their coverage -- with a cost overrun.

The fact is that the plan does seem to be making a serious dent in the number of uninsured. One thing that has come to light is that there may have been more uninsured people in Massachusetts to start with than previously estimated, so there's a steeper hill to climb. But claims that it's all a disaster are based on nothing but bad journalism.

The only folks I've read that have said Obama's healthplan is better than Hillary's are his campaign people, the AEI, and an Iowa college newspaper.  If anyone can point me to a progressive/liberal voice who thinks Obama's is better and explains why, I'd love to read it.  And, no, Daily Kos diaries don't count.


by BDB on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:33:32 PM EST

It's the Policy Stupid (none / 0)

Look, I don't have a dog in this hunt, on my issues, insourcing (H-1B, L-1 guest worker Visas), offshore outsourcing Hillary is one of the worst.

That said, believe it or not, Obama is "worser", in his actual votes and things he has said and what he has not done (co-sponsor S.1035 Grassley-Durbin).

That's the real issue here.  It doesn't matter how many great speeches are uttered or charisma or even how is less attackable by the radical right.

What matters is the actual policy position and they ability to get those policy changes through congress and into law.  

I am looking at this as least objectionable candidate, but please can we get the focus back on policy so this country has a prayer's chance?


NoSlaves.com | The Economic Populist
by Robert Oak on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:35:39 PM EST

disagree (none / 0)

I'm a liberal and I'm in Obama's corner.  I usually love Krugman, but on Obama I disagree with him.

On O's policy proposals:
1) Mandates are not the only pathway to universal (i.e. single payer) healthcare.  The key is to have a government plan which competes with private industry.  All of the Dem plans do this.

2) On social security, raising the cap to include higher income levels is a progressive solution, not a conservative one.  Merely talking about social security shouldn't be considered off limits to liberal lawmakers.  (I know, I know the real 'crisis' wouldn't occur for several years.)

3) I've heard Barack and Michelle speak numerous times framing government from a very progressive p.o.v.  I support Barack b/c he would help sweep in a new culture of progressive ideas in this country...

Of course, no candidate is infallible.  (I do disagree with promoting nuclear power to avoid the coal rush.) I still don't understand how true liberals would choose Hillary over Obama.

HRC voted for the Iraq war and remained hawkish on the war until the end of 2003.  She has espoused hawkish rhetoric on Iran.  She authored her own flag burning amendment to appeal to conservative voters.  (Talk about espousing right wing talking points!)  She's a part of the DLC which worked against Howard Dean and the early netroots movement...

Please tell me how a real liberal supports that kind of record?


by Damien in Texas on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:51:49 PM EST

Re: disagree (none / 0)

Obama supports pre-emptive war with Pakistan, one of our only allies in the region.

Having government plan compete with private insurers is not a "path to universal care."  Universal health care, by definition includes a mandate.

You have heard Barack and Michelle use progressive talking points.  Great, good for them.  Have you also read all of Todd's post, or the other coverage of the Obama campaign that attack Clinton for wanting to use the government to help people?  

Obama -- all things to all people.


by rcipw on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:18:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

disagree again (none / 0)

All of the candidates agree with Obama's position on Pakistan.

He doesn't support pre-emptive war. He said he would act on actionable intelligence of a threat to America's security if President Musharaf didn't do so.

I define true "universal" health care to mean a single payer system. Others, I know, don't define it that way. It's too easy for politicians to merely require everyone to have health care and call it universal coverage. Your definition is flawed. Under your definition, single payer is not a "universal" plan. A single payer system does not mandate that every one buy coverage. Everyone is already covered through the payment of their taxes.

If you have a government plan that competes w/ privates insurers, you reduce those companies' ability to make money off of outrageous rates. You effectively create a toehold which can be expanded in the future to include everyone free of charge (corresponding with a slight tax increase.)

Both HRC's and Obama's plans will lead us down that path.

Continue to hate-on and distrust Obama if you must.
by Damien in Texas on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 02:19:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: disagree again (none / 0)

Single payer is also a mandate -- everyone is enrolled automatically.  Same as the Clinton/Edwards plans.


by rcipw on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 07:49:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Today on the morning shows HRC ducked on whether her plan would require wage-garnishment or not. From what I understand it, a mandate plan would require that, wouldn't it?


by MNPundit on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 12:55:16 PM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

If it is truly a mandate...

It seems like someone who is so adamant about having a mandate would at least know how that mandate would be enforced.


by WellstoneDem on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:27:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

I want to start by saying that if it's not single-payer then it's not really worth arguing about.

Since that's how I look at it I wanted to step back and think about what's going to be more politically popular/acceptable.

There are going to be a ton of Americans that don't believe that they should be forced to pay the government or private insurers (the people who created the problem get a nice windfall no?) for health insurance.

This will not go over well with them.

There are also going to be people who have been thinking that UHC means single-payer. As soon as they find out that UHC actually means forced payments they'll turn against the party that created the plan.

The GOP will have a field day with it.

Not having mandates but reducing the costs so more people can afford it is the more acceptable and less damaging plan politically if we're not going to have tax funded single-payer health care.


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:07:28 PM EST

Re: Social Security (none / 0)

Obama says he is going to lift the cap on the payroll tax to fix the social security short fall.  He said he would not raise the retirement age or reduce benefits at the forum I attended.

Clinton says she is going to appoint another bipartisan commission.  She has said a lift of the cap on the payroll tax on those making over $98,000 is a "trillion dollar tax increase on middle class families"

http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/2008 0117/ELECTIONS/717912472/-1/rss01

How can anyone say with a straight face that Senator Clinton is more progressive on Social Security?

Ohh...Senator Obama said the word 'crisis' a few times...Now it is all clear...


by WellstoneDem on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 01:25:05 PM EST

This sums it up nicely for me (none / 0)

Hillary supporters should especially consider #6, who she would be bringing with her and what she will do for and to the Dem party.

To Undecided Super Tuesday Voters
by BooMan
Sun Feb 3rd, 2008 at 11:21:39 AM EST

So you are undecided between Clinton and Obama and you have to make a decision before you go to the polls on February 5th. How are you going to make a decision? I will provide you ten reasons to choose Barack Obama.
10. Electability- Just this morning the San Francisco Chronicle reports on the differences in who supports each of the two candidates in California and how they match-up against a hypothetical McCain campaign. First, let's look at the McCain match-up.

Clinton now clings to a bare 45 to 43 percent lead over McCain in a projected California presidential vote, down dramatically from her 17 percentage point margin just two weeks ago. Obama now holds a stronger 47 to 40 percent margin over the Arizona senator, but that's only half the 14 percentage point advantage he had in mid-January.
If Clinton can't break out of the margin of error in a contest with John McCain in California there are some serious electability problems for her campaign. A look inside the internals explains the problem:

While Clinton has a 37 to 31 percent lead over Obama among Democrats, Obama leads by an overwhelming 54 to 32 percent among nonpartisans, who will make up an estimated 13 percent of the primary voters.
As former deputy assistant to President Bush, Peter Wehner, explains in this morning's Washington Post, even Republicans have a soft spot for Barack Obama.

A number of prominent Republicans I know, who would wage a pitched battle against Hillary Clinton, like Obama and would find it hard to generate much enthusiasm in opposing him.
All things considered, Barack Obama appears to be the more electable of the two candidates.

9. The Youth Vote- We all know that children are our future, and young voters are the future of the Democratic Party. According to the San Francisco Chronicle article, "[w]hile people aged 18 to 29 [in California] back Obama by a margin of 11 percentage points, voters 65 and older support Clinton, 40 to 18 percent." This is a reflection of the other early primary and caucus contests: In Iowa, Obama won the youth vote 57%-11%, in New Hampshire he won 18-24 year-olds 60%-22%, in Nevada 59%-33%, and in South Carolina 67%-23%.

According to Youth Voter PAC, which has been tracking youth voter turnout, there has been a notable uptick in participation. For example:

Young people continued the trend of increased turnout and preference for Democrats in the South Carolina Primary. Young people almost tripled their turnout numbers from 2004 and almost doubled the turnout numbers of young Republicans...
...Young people were 9% of the overall Democratic primary vote in 2004 and increased that to 14% in 2008.

Young Democrats continue to outnumber young Republicans at the polls continuing a trend in every state since Iowa.

While the Clinton campaign is causing its own excitement, it's clear that Obama's campaign is the driving force behind this unprecedented swell in youth turnout, and that could translate into enormous coattails for down ticket races for governors, senators, and congresspeople.

8. Change (Part One)

The last time we had a presidential election without a Bush or Clinton on the ballot was 1976. The last time we had an administration in office that didn't include a Bush or a Clinton was January of 1981. There is something fundamentally wrong with a system where two families trade power back and forth over a period of 36 years (that's how long it would be if Clinton serves two terms). Perhaps this isn't the best idea. Perhaps it would be good to give someone else a chance.

7. Change (Part Two)

The Clinton administration was very successful on many levels, but we all remember the scandals (both real and imagined). Do you want to refight those battles? Do you even want to hear them discussed? Or would you like to begin fresh with new start?

6. Position/Ideology within the party

The Clintons are philosophically aligned with the Democratic Leadership Council and Hillary chairs the DLC's American Dream Initiative. The DLC is represented in Congress by the New Democrat Caucus (of which, Hillary is not currently a member). Take a look at the membership of the New Democrat Caucus and ask yourself if they are your kind of Democrats. If you are frustrated about how the Democrats have voted on the war, on bankruptcy protection, on illegal combatants, take a look at the voting record of New Democrats and compare that record to the Progressive Caucus, or the Democratic caucus as a whole.

Many political insiders suspect that the Clintons, if they win the nomination, will replace Howard Dean as president of the Democratic National Committee with the president of the Democratic Leadership Council, Harold Ford, Jr. Is Harold Ford. Jr. your kind of Democrat?

Barack Obama is not a member of the DLC, nor has he ever been closely aligned with them. His background as a community organizer in Chicago strongly suggests that his natural affinity lies more with the Progressive Caucus (mostly made up of urban pols) than with the DLC. His surrogates do not have an adversarial relationship with Howard Dean.

5. The Kyl-Lieberman Amendment

On September 26, 2007, the Senate passed the Kyl-Lieberman amendment that provided a legal framework for the Bush-Cheney administration to expand the war into Iran. Clinton voted for it. Obama did not leave the campaign trail and return to Washington to vote (something he regrets, although the vote was 76-22 so it hardly mattered), but he did voice his strong objection at the time.

4. His positive campaign

While Clinton surrogates (and campaign director) have talked about Obama's past drug-use, raised (falsely) that he might have been a drug dealer, falsely claimed that he attended a Madrassa, called him (in coded language) an Uncle Tom, and tried to tie him to divisive black leaders like Jesse Jackson, the Obama campaign has never raised the Clintons' checkered past as a reason to vote against them. Do you want to reward this kind of negative campaigning?

3. The Authorization to Use Military Force in Iraq

Hillary Clinton not only voted for the AUMF-Iraq in 2002, she voted against the Levin Amendment. Former senator Lincoln Chafee explains the significance of the Levin amendment:

Senator Levin's amendment called for United Nations approval before force could be authorized. It was unambiguous and compatible with international law. Acutely cognizant of the dangers of the time, and the reality that diplomatic options could at some point be exhausted, Senator Levin wrote an amendment that was nimble: it affirmed that Congress would stand at the ready to reconsider the use of force if, in the judgment of the president, a United Nations resolution was not "promptly adopted" or enforced. Ceding no rights or sovereignty to an international body, the amendment explicitly avowed America's right to defend itself if threatened...
Those of us who supported the Levin amendment argued against a rush to war. We asserted that the Iraqi regime, though undeniably heinous, did not constitute an imminent threat to United States security, and that our campaign to renew weapons inspections in Iraq -- whether by force or diplomacy -- would succeed only if we enlisted a broad coalition that included Arab states.

We went through an election in 2004 where our candidate could not convincingly explain his vote to authorize force in Iraq. Do we want to repeat that experience, or do we want to try a candidate like Barack Obama, who opposed the war from the beginning?

2. Judgment

Obama was right on the war, he was right on the Kyl-Lieberman amendment, and Hillary Clinton sided with Dick Cheney and George W. Bush on both of those votes. Who has the better judgment?

1. Inspiration

Ethel, Teddy, and Caroline Kennedy all recognize in Barack Obama some of the intangible leadership qualities that they saw in John and Robert Kennedy when they were alive. Obama is packing stadiums with adoring fans, inspiring young people, wooing independents, and disarming conservatives. And he is doing it with an uplifting message that is critical of Republicans leadership without coming across as harsh or alienating. If anyone can help us move forward with a little more unity as a nation, it is not Hillary Clinton, but Barack Obama.

For these 10 reasons, I implore you to choose Barack Obama over Hillary Clinton on Tuesday. -http://www.boomantribune.com


by charlesf on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 03:12:45 PM EST

Re: This sums it up nicely for me (none / 0)

The fact is that Obama didn't vote on the Kyle-Lieberman amendment regardless of the outcome.  Apparently, Obama can't be bothered to back his rhetoric up with a vote.  This is sort of like voting "present" in the Illinois legislature.

And, it's probably only coincidental that he bothered to show up to vote on the FISA telecom immunity cloture after Senator Clinton announced that she would leave the campaign trail to do so.

"Judgment" and rhetoric doesn't mean much if the person isn't willing to do his job and vote when it counts.


by CyclingLeft on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 05:24:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This sums it up nicely for me (none / 0)

are you a low information voter or muddying the waters on purpose? you should know by now what a 'present' vote means in Illinois legislative process.

if you are a low information voter, i suggest you do a little research on #6 above. there is a reason the democratic party was in a shambles after bill clinton was done.


by charlesf on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 07:03:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This sums it up nicely for me (none / 0)

About those present votes...


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 07:06:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well said (none / 0)

Obama continues to use right wing framing of issues. His contention that there is a big "crisis" in Social Security is just false and misleading. I know he is a better than that and if he defeats Hillary (who I support) I hope he changes his ways.


by texasdemocrat06 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 04:13:23 PM EST

Re: Obama's Krugman Problem (none / 0)

Wow, lots of comments on this issue.  I haven't had a chance to wade through all of them, but I wanted to put a question out there for those who support Hillary's healthcare proposal above Obama's.
First, a caveat, I'm an Obama supporter mainly due to Clinton's proven hawkishness on foreign policy.
However, I am also very interested in healthcare reform, and think a program of universal healthcare is badly needed in our country. I would support a government program rather than one which involves insurance companies, but that doesn't seem to be on the table at the moment.

My question is on the issue of mandates.  I understand the theory of driving down costs by having all participate, but have any of you actually looked at what is going on in Massachusetts.  Mandates have apparently not effectively controlled costs in that system, and it appears to be folks with illness and older individuals who are forced to pay the higher prices.  As someone wrote above of Hillary's plan:  "it's expected to be the popular choice for a lot of young, healthy adults who would normally opt out but now have a financially reasonable option"
so what about the older people who would now have to pay outrageously high premiums to get the "mandated" plan?  What about people with accute or chronic illnesses  ... it seems that neither Hillary or Barack's plan deal with this.  But at least Barrack seems to be more in touch and has mentioned the issue of affordability.

Can anyone tell me how Hillary's mandate program would control premium costs and avoid issues seen in the Massachusetts program (now pretty widely recognized to be a failure, I think)?
Finally, I'd also like to know why people think Hillary actually could get this done, since her previous attempt was a pretty miserable failure and set us back many years on the issue.

thanks for any reasoned and on-topic responses


by AnnaB77 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 06:09:27 PM EST

'Less progressive'? (none / 0)

Obama the "less progressive" of the two candidates, based on Krugman's say-so?

With all due respect, Krugman's shortsightedness on these two candidacies says far more about him than about Obama.

His colleague, Frank Rich, gets it right today, suggesting that we're at another JFK moment in our history, and Hillary is not up to that task.

If you want to know what real progressives think about Obama, read Christopher Hayes' front-page article in the Nation:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080218/ha yes


by JD Lasica on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 04:11:09 AM EST


You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.