Thousands of Los Angeles "Double Bubble" Votes Will Be Counted

As I wrote HERE, thousands of Decline To State voters (California's version of independents) who had voted in the Democratic primary in Los Angeles County on February 5th were in danger of having their votes not count since they failed to fill in a second bubble on their ballot indicating that they intended to vote in the Democratic primary even though they had already requested a Democratic ballot, a step that is required of DTS voters when voting in the primary. It was a classic case of a really poorly-designed ballot leading to the disenfranchisement of almost 100,000 voters but at least in this case the intent of the voters could be easily ascertained and, if allowed, be counted.

My friends at the Courage Campaign (for whom I do part time work) were the first to flag the potential problem and set into motion some pre-emptive measures as well as some legal challenges to make sure as many DTS voters' votes were ultimately counted.

The issue was ultimately taken up by the Los Angeles Board of Supervisors who heard arguments from Los Angeles Registrar of Voters, Dean Logan, who was resistant to counting the votes and Rick Jacobs of the Courage Campaign, who, armed with a petition signed by almost 33,000 supporters urging for the votes to be counted, made the case for letting the voices of thousands of Californians be heard.

You'll never guess who won.

Los Angeles County Registrar Dean Logan said Tuesday his office will try to count about 50,000 improperly marked nonpartisan ballots from this month's presidential primary election. [...]

Logan estimated about a quarter of the 190,000 ballots submitted by decline-to-state voters in Los Angeles County did not have both bubbles filled in. Those were among 1.8 million votes cast altogether in the county's Super Tuesday contest.

Logan told California Secretary of State Debra Bowen that he may be able to determine what some of those independent voters intended and count their ballots before he certifies the election results next week.

He said he can count ballots in precincts where there is no confusion between the two parties because independent voters asked exclusively for either Democratic or American Independent ballots.

This will no doubt result in a slight uptick in Barack Obama's California vote tally, although my friends at calitics tell me there's no way for it to impact the delegate count out of the state. But really, no matter who benefits, this is a huge win for the cause of counting every vote, a value all Democrats should share and a huge win for the power of thousands of names on a petition to make real world change.



Display:


Why So Difficult? (none / 0)

You'd think it wouldn't be so damn difficult to design an easy way for people to vote in elections? This isn't brain surgery!

thefeldmanblog.com


by cfeldman on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 05:49:02 PM EST

Re: Thousands of Los Angeles Votes Will Be Counted (none / 0)

Rules are rules.
Those votes should NOT be counted, they violated the rules of the party, those 100,000 votes should be tossed out.
Of course I am kidding, I salute Todd and the rest for making sure these 100,000 votes count.
I hope you help to make sure the 2 million Michigan & Florida votes are not tossed out, like they were in 2000.

Neither the DNC nor the Supreme Court has the right to decide an election.


by rolnitzky on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 05:52:23 PM EST

Re: Thousands of Los Angeles Votes Will Be Counted (none / 0)

Just curious, how would you allocate Michigan's votes?  

And what about voters from both states who decided to stay at home because they (rightfully, IMHO) believed that their vote wouldn't matter?

Do you think a revote is the best way to handle it?


by goodnbad on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 05:58:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thousands of Los Angeles Votes Will Be Counted (none / 0)

Everyone in FL understood they will be eventually seates by the victor of the other states, nobody would have thought it's gonna be tight.

A revote is probably the best solution.
Leaving them out of the convention should be unthinkable.

Don't forget, Obama ran ads in Florida, Clinton did not.


by rolnitzky on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 06:09:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thousands of Los Angeles Votes Will Be Counted (none / 0)

>>Everyone in FL understood they will be eventually seates by the victor of the other states.<<

Really?  I never thought so.  The DNC seemed to make the rules fairly clear and easy understand, and all candidates made it clear as well.

Obama ran an ad for THE SUPER BOWL - and it HAPPENED to air in FL.  Not the same thing as "Obama ran an ad in FL".

But we agree that a revote is the best (IMHO, the ONLY fair) solution.


by goodnbad on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 06:41:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thousands of Los Angeles Votes Will Be Counted (none / 0)

Michigan's votes can be allocated as cast: Hillary can get 54% of the delegates, and 40% of the delegates can be uncommitted, and hence vote anyway they want. [Leaving some delegates for Kucinich, not that the delegates exactly follow the popular vote, but you get the idea.]

There's no excuse to let the DNC disenfranchise innocent voters in their attempts to punish party leaders: let them punish only the leaders, and let's stand for the democratic principle that all votes are counted.


by fsm on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 06:16:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thousands of Los Angeles Votes Will Be Counted (none / 0)

WHO would the uncommited delegates be?  How would you pick them?  Would you pick the first 100 people off the street who identify themselves as Democrats and have them show up at the convention and have them vote however they wish?  

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that when you cast a vote for a presidential candidate in a primary, you actually cast a vote for a pre-selected delegate.

"Uncommitted" doesn't mean anything, and provides no way for those delegates to be apportioned.

I hope you're not saying that Clinton should be the only person to seat delegates from MI.


by goodnbad on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 06:39:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thousands of Los Angeles Votes Will Be Counted (none / 0)

Actually, this is not an election. Its a primary. And party organizations have been consistently ruled  as private, albeit with a highly public function. If they wanted to choose their nominee by setting toads down and seeing who crossed the finish line first, they could do that. As LONG as the by-laws and rules that the organization have laid out for it have been followed. If they haven't, or if someone has illegally tried to usurp them, then you have a case.

This happened a couple years back with what was left of the Reform party after Perot pulled out his funding. A vicious court-battle ensued in which one or the other parties in the case argued the other violated the by-laws and constitution of the organization. I can't remember the outcome of the case, but in the end, the court decided, not what was fair, or equal, or even democratic. Rather it ruled on the merits of each sides arguments as to whether or not the bylaws were violated.


by Sean Siberio on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 06:17:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thousands of Los Angeles Votes Will Be Counted (2.00 / 0)

I wonder what the people of Florida think:

28 percent of Florida Dems want a revote
24 percent want delegates seated based on the January primary
15 percent think no delegates should be seated
13 percent want an equal number of Obama and Clinton delegates seated

From Mason-Dixon:
http://www.miamiherald.com/campaign08/st ory/437352.html

Courtesey of the always informative poblano:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/28/ 125732/235/55/465733


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 06:39:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here we go again (none / 0)

The last time this phony story made the rounds here, Fort Courage was claiming that 94,500 ballots were uncounted in LA county. Now, it seems, that total universe of possible uncounted  ballots is down to 50,000.

From the linked article:

"Logan estimated about a quarter of the 190,000 ballots submitted by decline-to-state voters in Los Angeles County did not have both bubbles filled in. Those were among 1.8 million votes cast altogether in the county's Super Tuesday contest."

Let's stop right there. About 50,000 ballots did not have  both the bubbles filled in. With numerous State and local initiatives on the ballot, it is clearly the case that not ALL 50,000 ballots not marked in the double bubbles were from voters who intended to vote in a primary. These are non-party voters, and it defies common sense to claim that they all intended to vote in a party primary. So "50,000" is the absolute limit of possible "uncounted votes," and, in practice, the number must be much lower.

"Logan. . .said he can count ballots in precincts where there is no confusion between the two parties because independent voters asked exclusively for either Democratic or American Independent ballots."

OK, fine, these ballots are unambiguous.

"In addition, he can count ballots where a voter filled in a bubble that was reserved exclusively for a Democratic candidate. There were eight Democratic candidates and only three American Independent candidates."

Not so fine. This practice works to the disadvantage of the three Democratic candidates who were placed in the same ballot positions as the three American Independent party candidates. There is no way for them to recieve additional votes, even though some, if not most, of the ballots marked for their positions were probably intended for them, and not the AI party candidate.

This is the problem when local officials start caving in to special pleaders like the so-called "Courage Campaign." Why should the Elections officials have to bend over backwards for these non-party voters, to the point where it calls into question the fairness of the primary?

Notice too, the last sentence in the linked article:

"Independent voters were required to use the double bubble ballots because the parties wanted to keep track of how many independents voted in their primaries."

In other words, the "double bubble" was developed to satisfy the whims of the parties, which want non-party voters to be able to vote in their primaries, but also want to be able to "keep track" of their votes seperately from those of party members. For all of the hinting at nefarious practices by the local election officials, it is in fact the parties that are to blame for the "double bubble."

Well over a hundred thousand non-party voters were able to figure out how to fill out their ballots correctly in LA County. The Elections Board, the Obama camp, and the "Courage Campaign" all put out press releases prior to the primary instructing non-party voters what they needed to do. The few non-party voters who intended to vote in a primary, but either were too stupid or too indifferent to fill out their ballots correctly, do not deserve this type of special treatment.

Perhaps the real reason that the local officials have given in is hidden in the last paragraph of the post:

"This will no doubt result in a slight uptick in Barack Obama's California vote tally, although my friends at calitics tell me there's no way for it to impact the delegate count out of the state. But really, no matter who benefits, this is a huge win for the cause of counting every vote, a value all Democrats should share and a huge win for the power of thousands of names on a petition to make real world change."

In  fact, there is no "real world change" here. There is no significant change at all. A group of Beverly Hills liberals has managed, after much threatening, bullying, shouting, on-line petitioning, and the like, to have a few thousand meaningless, and improperly filled out ballots "counted." No change in the delegate count will come of it. The election officials are doing this simply to shut up this obdurate, Obama-front masquerading as a "good government" group. This is their "huge win." Big deal.


by freemansfarm on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 06:33:22 PM EST

Re: Here we go again (none / 0)

Way to, um, you know - trash democracy. Kudos even.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 06:40:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we go again (none / 0)

Do you even bother to read what you dismiss? How is it "democratic" to award votes to some of the primary candidates based on these improperly marked ballots, but not others. The three Democratic presidential candidates sharing ballot positions with the three American Independent candidates can't recieve any additional votes, because it is impossible to determine which primary the voter intended to vote in.

In every single election, there are improperly filled out ballots. These are often called "spoiled ballots." There is nothing new, noteworthy, nefarious or unusual about their occurence in this election. Such ballots are normally tossed out, and "democracy" is not held to suffer for it.

It is only in this case, because this pro-Obama group has gotten a hold of the issue and won't let go, that any kind of a fuss is being made. This group orginally thought it could perhaps grab a delegate or two for their candidate, or, failing that, at least tarnish Hillary's crushing victory in CA and particularly in SoCal. The numbers coming out of LA County were in line with the rest of SoCal. There were almost 2 millions votes cast in LA County. As even the poster admits, these "votes" will have no effect on the outcome whatsoever.

So, please, before you start spouting off about "democracy," get your facts straight.


by freemansfarm on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 06:49:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we go again (none / 0)

how dare we try to count votes.

And of course nothing good can come from remedying faulty ballot design or ensuring full counts.  Because we all know THAT won't be a problem in November.

Myopia, thy name is...

(incidentally, it was known from the day after the election that there would not and could not be a delegate shift as a result of counting the double bubble ballots.  Some people are interested in, you know, the principle of the thing.)

(double incidentally, you can actually determine who requested an American Independent Party ballot from the roll books.)


by dday on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 07:13:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we go again (none / 0)

Again, it is easy to hide behind noble sounding language like "count the votes," but, in practice, when ballots are not filled out properly, trying to do so can lead to unfairness.

As for "remedying the ballot," that is another question. My understanding is that this ballot has been challenged before and has been upheld under CA election law. Maybe that law should be changed, or the election board filled with new members. But that has nothing to do with the ballots from this election.

And, incidentally, there were claims on this board the last time this issue was blogged that a delegate shift was possible. Given how almost 100,000 votes were then said to be at issue, why wouldn't a delegate shift be in reach? Moreover, you don't address my point that this group is going through this charade to undercut Hillary's crushing win in SoCal. Just as after NH and Nevada, whenever Hillary wins, some phony "neutral" group pops up and cries "foul." Hillary beat Obama fair and square in CA, in SoCal, and in LA County. These "votes" simply don't matter, and the controversy that has been ginned up over them is even more inexcusable if, as you claim, there was never even a chance of a delegate shift based on them.

And, double incidentally, you can't actually determine which primary a voter intended to vote in by which the party "list" (not "ballot"--the ballots were the same) they requested. Click the link to the "Courage Campaign," and the first item on the board is an explanation as to why this is impermissable under election law.


by freemansfarm on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 07:32:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here we go again (none / 0)

Oh, and by the way Mr. LandStander, I do not appreciate having you improperly "zero" rate my comments like you did this morning in the "Deja vu all over again" diary.


by freemansfarm on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 06:53:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Double Bubble" Votes Will Be Counted (none / 0)

All I know is that the Registrar's office better get this ballot crap sorted out between now and the GE in November.


Vote Who Sane '08!
by nafamabo on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 06:45:45 PM EST

Count the Votes! (none / 0)

I'm always pleased any time efforts are made to make voting easier and to avoid disenfranchising especially those who take the time to cast a vote.

Any candidate that benefits from low turnout or by making the rules stricter doesn't deserve to win, in my opinion.  That usually means Republicans.  


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 07:56:05 PM EST

Re: Thousands of Los Angeles (none / 0)

But really, no matter who benefits, this is a huge win for the cause of counting every vote, a value all Democrats should share and a huge win for the power of thousands of names on a petition to make real world change.

Wouldn't counting the votes from Florida and Michigan be a similar victory for the cause of counting every vote?

Or are just "undercounted" Obama votes the ones that we should care about?

I'm confused.


by arkansasdemocrat on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 10:00:25 PM EST


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